S09.E04: Before The Flood

[Chip]

 

On a remote army outpost, a fearsome alien warlord called the Fisher King sets in motion a twisted plan to ensure his own survival. The ripples will be felt around the universe. Is this chain of events inevitable? And can the Doctor do the unthinkable?

 

[ApathyMonger]

Definitely one I want to watch again knowing the ending. I liked most of it, and the bits I didn't care for (Capaldi breaking the fourth wall again at the very end) were fairly minor.

[alrightokay]

Not as strong as last week's episode, but some enjoyable moments in there.  I loved the image of the Fisher King looming above Twelve, but their showdown seemed to get resolved too quickly.   I wish O'Donnell hadn't died; she was a fun character, more interesting than Bennett.  And the kiss between Cass and Lunn felt shoehorned in.  Still, I do think the acting has been excellent all S9, and Sophie Stone, the actress who played Cass, was especially good (loved the scene where she tells Clara off for convincing Lunn to get the phone).  The part where she walks down the corridor, unable to hear Moran dragging the axe behind her, was really well done.  I also liked the eeriness of the Soviet-style town--the imagery was so evocative, I wonder if, besides the fact that the TARDIS landed in 1980, there was a thematic reason for the set decor.  

 

The pre-credits scene wasn't necessary, I think--the Doctor didn't have to tell us about the bootstrap paradox in order for us to get the timey-wimey-ness of this story.  It might have been better to give that extra time to the Fisher King, to make him scarier/more threatening.  Still, I love Capaldi so much that I'll watch him do anything, even play Beethoven on the guitar.  I did like the "tour" of the TARDIS we got there, as Twelve walked around the console room, up and down the stairs, past the shelves, etc., picking up items , putting them down.  BTW, I think the DW theme song is better with the guitar flourishes--I hope this version stays!

[penguinnj]

Didn't want to comment until I'd seen this week.  Very strong 2 parter- will definitely have to re-watch the whole thing.  I will say,

I really love Capaldi's doctor.  

 

As for the wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey stuff, IMHO this was a really good middle ground for the writers to take.  Somewhere between Angels Take Manhattan- the absolute fixed rules and points that cannot be changed- and The Waters of Mars- The Time Lord Victorious. 

[Morrigan2575]

I hated the Doctor breaking the 4th wall at the start end end of the episode. I really hope that doesn't become a thing, like the stupid sunglasses and guitar playing.

I also hated Clara's response to Cass about doing what's necessary...BS. She's more than happy to let others die as long as she and The Doctor survive.

It's sad but I liked every character but Clara/Twelve in this 2 parter.

[NeenerNeener]

If Clara and Danny Pink aren't reunited by the end of this season then Moffat and Whithouse wasted a lot of perfectly good anvils in these 1st 4 episodes.

[benteen]

There was a lot I liked in this episode but I still had several issues with it.

 

-This is the second time the Doctor has defeated the villain with a loaded deck.  Like Davros, he already had the Fisher King beat before he confronted him and that takes away from the excellent confrontation he had with the Fisher King.  I like seeing the Doctor outsmart his villains but I don't want him to see him win before the fight even begins.

 

-This episode reaffirmed how toxic the Doctor and Clara relationship has become.  The two of them truly bring out the worst in each other.

 

-I don't know what I want to destroy more...the Doctor's guitar (which was Capaldi's idea) or those STUPID sonic sunglasses.  If Moffat wanted a "cool" Doctor than he should have casted a younger man.

 

-I'm sorry O'Donnell died.  She showed more enthusiasm for the TARDIS than Clara did all of last season.  I did like her bringing up some previous NuWho moments, like the election of Harold Saxon.

 

-That all being said, I have to say I really liked how the second part really developed the underwater crew.  They all shined here and the actors did some really good work.  I agree that I liked all of them more here than the Doctor and Clara.

 

-The Fisher King was a really good, memorable one-off villain.  The confrontation with the Doctor was excellent (before being undermined) and I liked that he knew about the Time Lords  The hearse idea was a clever one.

 

-The whole Cass being stalked was well-shot and make good use of sound editing.  Her touching the fall to feel the vibrations is something I can see Daredevil doing.

 

-You can tell Toby Whithouse wrote this episode and not Moffat because the dead crew stayed dead.

 

-I did like the timey-whimey aspects.

 

-The Soviet town mock-up made for a good setting.

Edited October 11, 2015 by benteen

[Rhetorica]

Again with a younger man should have been cast if we want a cool Doctor. Twelve is hardly ancient and coolness is a state of mind, not a number!

I like the guitar and the sonic sunglasses were used well in this episode. It was fun, had a mystery to solve, and good characters. Unfortunately, not all could be saved. I have hopes one of them may become a companion.

[benteen]

Again with a younger man should have been cast if we want a cool Doctor. Twelve is hardly ancient and coolness is a state of mind, not a number!

I like the guitar and the sonic sunglasses were used well in this episode. It was fun, had a mystery to solve, and good characters. Unfortunately, not all could be saved. I have hopes one of them may become a companion.

 

Fair enough.  I think the Doctor has always been a cool character, each one in there own way.  But these efforts to make Capaldi's Doctor cool have been forced and embarrassing.

[Lantern7]

Man, a lot of the plot went over my head. So the Doctor didn't actually die, but he got the idea from his ghost/hologram self, which . . . seriously, how does Clara walk around without blood gushing out of her head orifices trying to sort out the paradoxes?

 

Anybody else feel that Fisher King would've been scarier if he hadn't be in front of a camera that often? Or at least spookier?

[alias1]

I really like the guitar and the sunglasses.  Capaldi needed something and if this is it, it's ok with me. Keep it.  Own it.  I don't get that it needs to be a younger actor.  There are plenty of old rockers out there and I think Capaldi pulls it off just fine. 

 

I hope whoever the next companion is, it isn't a contemporary earth girl.  

[angora]

Fair enough.  I think the Doctor has always been a cool character, each one in there own way.  But these efforts to make Capaldi's Doctor cool have been forced and embarrassing.

I think Twelve is plenty cool, but I feel like the show doesn't necessarily believe that.  This season, it's like the writing has been self-consciously trying to "prove" his coolness, which just serves to undermine it.  I like the guitar, but I would've rather seen it featured in a single episode in a relevant way (such as an adventure set in the midst of a particular rock era) than as a recurring "thing."

 

For me, not as good as "Under the Lake."  Still pretty good - the Doctor's confrontation with the Fisher King is indeed great, and I echo the love for Cass's scene with ghost Moran.  I also love the way that O'Donnell, while clearly letting the Doctor know she was a fan, plays it relatively cool until he's out of earshot, at which point she starts jumping up and down over the TARDIS being bigger on the inside.  So much love!  Plus, bonus points for the ghosts staying dead at the end; when we got Ghost!Doctor in the cliffhanger last week, I was sure that meant everyone was going to be coming back.

 

I'm not AGAINST causal time loops, but to say they're getting old puts it mildly, and with the way the Doctor exposits on it at both the beginning and the end of the episode, you'd think the show had never done one before.  Also, I'm tired of "the Doctor is gonna actually-for-real-no-fooling really die this time!" storylines, and the fact that we JUST had one in "The Magician's Apprentice"/"The Witch's Familiar" makes it worse.  It might've been marginally better if he was going to his "death" without knowing it (which, bonus, would've interfered with the causal time loop,) or even if Clara hadn't told him but he'd figured it out himself from the way she was acting on the phone.  As it is, all I liked about that part of the plot was the Doctor referring to the current regeneration as a "clerical error," because I wish the show would spend more time exploring how he feels about having received a new, unexpected regeneration cycle.

 

After three episodes of having basically no complaints about Clara, the whole "don't die, change the future" conversation was weird for me.  The longer it went on, the more it seemed to feel like Clara was coming from it almost entirely from the perspective of "you have to stay alive so you can come and save me."  Now, obviously, it's good that she wants to live and isn't ready to throw in the towel, and it's perfectly reasonable that that would be part of her argument, but to me, it felt like that was almost completely overshadowing any concern she had about her friend dying.  It just felt off to me, much more series 8 than what I've seen of Clara so far this season.

[Latverian Diplomat]

There was a lot I liked in this episode but I still had several issues with it.

 

-This is the second time the Doctor has defeated the villain with a loaded deck.  Like Davros, he already had the Fisher King beat before he confronted him and that takes away from the excellent confrontation he had with the Fisher King.  I like seeing the Doctor outsmart his villains but I don't want him to see him win before the fight even begins.

 

FWIW, the Doctor hasn't won yet when he confronts the Fisher King. He still has to convince him to leave the hibernation chamber and go out to die in the flood and so they need to have the conversation where the Doctor claims to have erased the writing. So, the "fight" wasn't quite over, it just wasn't what we thought.

 

Not sure why the Fisher King didn't just kill him at that point? I guess he wanted the Doctor to know the writing was restored before he killed him?

 

There's no way for me to run the experiment, but I guess I'm glad the Beethoven thing was in there. It gave me a little more appreciation for the bootstrap paradox aspect. I just had a conversation with someone about the fact that "Johnny B Goode" writes itself in Back to the Future. I didn't know there was a name for that.

 

Over all I really liked this one, but I really didn't care for the "Seize the day" stuff. First, it was awfully convenient that Cass and Lunn both had secret crushes on the other, but also, there's more tragedy in O'Donnell's death than that Bennett didn't hook up with her.

 

O'Donnell is another "almost companion" who dies. She has the personality and the taste for adventure, but not the luck (or the fleetness of foot? or the ability to pick up on hints?)

Edited October 11, 2015 by Latverian Diplomat

[Latverian Diplomat]

After three episodes of having basically no complaints about Clara, the whole "don't die, change the future" conversation was weird for me.  The longer it went on, the more it seemed to feel like Clara was coming from it almost entirely from the perspective of "you have to stay alive so you can come and save me."  Now, obviously, it's good that she wants to live and isn't ready to throw in the towel, and it's perfectly reasonable that that would be part of her argument, but to me, it felt like that was almost completely overshadowing any concern she had about her friend dying.  It just felt off to me, much more series 8 than what I've seen of Clara so far this season.

I'm not sure about this. When she says "You owe me. You've made yourself essential to me." She talking about more than just the immediate need to be rescued.

 

If anything, I think she is worried that he will find a way to save her and not himself, and that she is telling him that is not good enough. 

Edited October 11, 2015 by Latverian Diplomat

[Kalliste]

I think I liked this two parter the most out of any episode we've seen in Capaldi's run. Mostly because Clara was a supporting character, even if the Doctor was willing to break time to make sure she lived. She was still only there in small doses. 

 

I also liked how the Fisher King looked, scary and creepy and I think they had a good mix of not showing him vs showing him.

 

I really like the guitar and the sunglasses.  Capaldi needed something and if this is it, it's ok with me. Keep it.  Own it.  I don't get that it needs to be a younger actor.  There are plenty of old rockers out there and I think Capaldi pulls it off just fine. 

 

I hope whoever the next companion is, it isn't a contemporary earth girl.  

I think the guitar is odd, I'd like it explained a bit. Why is he playing the guitar now? Is it someone specials guitar? Can we have an episode about him getting the guitar? I'm also happy with Capaldi being a cool doctor.. every doctor (in nuwho anyway) thinks he's cool, why can't Twelve?

 

And YES! When I first heard Clara would be back as a companion I was wondering how that could be, she was a dalek! And then she came back as a victorian woman and I thought that was great, no more 'modern' girls as the companion and then.. the IG stuff happened it that idea was gone.

 

I'd really love to see the companion be from another time or planet.

[benteen]

We could have had Victorian Clara but the writers didn't want to put in the effort.

[call me ishmael]

I think that the if you love me you won't die is a callback to Clara convincing the Time Lords to save the Doctor if they loved him. For all of the impossible girl notes the last few years have been about love of, and for, the Doctor. Not sure if that is good or bad though.

I do think that they were getting at how bad the relationship between the Doctor and Clara really has become--certainly a twisted love affair. She is willing to risk other people's lives on her guesses (even though she was right this time) and he wouldn't do anything for O'donnell but was willing to for Clara. I think the trick about the fight with the Fisher King was that the Doctor pretends he has decided to change time because the Fisher King is worse than any change he could make but he already decided do it for Clara.

The one genuine note was the suggestion that Clara needs the Doctor because she is running away from Danny's death.

[benteen]

12 and Clara might very well be the Doctor's most unhealthy relationship with a companion.

[angora]

I'm not sure about this. When she says "You owe me. You've made yourself essential to me." She talking about more than just the immediate need to be rescued.

 

If anything, I think she is worried that he will find a way to save her and not himself, and that she is telling him that is not good enough. 

You're right - it's more than just the rescue stuff, but to me, even that line still feels like it's more about how the Doctor's death would affect Clara rather than anything to do with him, the person potentially dying.  I dunno.  Maybe after last season, I'm just sensitive to that kind of stuff.

 

Oh, and I forgot to mention my love for all the continuity mentions (couldn't tell you why, but for whatever reason, namedropping the Arcateenians made me smile the most.)

[futurechemist]

Also, I'm tired of "the Doctor is gonna actually-for-real-no-fooling really die this time!" storylines, and the fact that we JUST had one in "The Magician's Apprentice"/"The Witch's Familiar" makes it worse.

I agree.  It takes away from the narrative stakes since we know there's either going to be a reset or some narrative cheat.

 

It was fun seeing O'Donnell geeking out about the TARDIS.  And this episode was refreshing in that we had a base under siege where everyone already knew the Doctor, so we didn't have to waste time with suspicion about how he got to the base.

 

I also like the difference between 11 and 12.  11 was an old man in a young body, and now 12 is a younger man in an older body.

[doesntworkonwood]

I don't think this episode was as strong as the previous one. The reason I really liked the last episode was because it wasn't super high concept, and this one was kind of the opposite of that. 

 

I did still like the team, I especially liked Cass. They did ruin it a bit with the unnecessary kiss at the end though. 

 

Clara annoyed me, as always, but there's really no helping that. 

[Occasional Hope]

"I don't know what I want to destroy more...the Doctor's guitar (which was Capaldi's idea) or those STUPID sonic sunglasses.  If Moffat wanted a "cool" Doctor than he should have casted a younger man."

 

You're not suggesting one must be young to be cool (or even "cool"), are you?

 

The sunglasses may be silly, but I kind of liked seeing the arm jammed into something to fix it in this ep.

 

I can't help thinking we're going to see the Fisher King's species again.  This year's finale battling an invading fleet of them?

[shandy]

I think this season has begun strongly but this last ep suffered from story compression. The confrontation with the Fisher King was so brief - the Russian town in Scotland thing could really have been explored. It felt, to me, that TW fleshed out quite a meaty story, and had to snip bits off so Moffat could have his Clara arc. Agree about yet another D ex M ending, the Doctor having it all in the bag before it even started, although I did like him emerging from the chamber. 

 

Cass was a great character, and the vibrations/reaction was a refreshing example of her succeeding on her own terms, rather than being the impaired person who holds everyone back, as in numerous disaster movies. Why then, after TW had inverted the disability as liability stereotype so brilliantly, did she  have to end up with her interpreter .... grrr....it was just lazy and predictable. 

[NeenerNeener]

 

Why then, after TW had inverted the disability as liability stereotype so brilliantly, did she  have to end up with her interpreter .... grrr....it was just lazy and predictable.

 

It's also foreshadowing for if/when 12 finally figures out how to get Danny back from cloud storage in the past and Clara decides to give up being a Companion to be with him.  If Rory can come back as an Auton there must be some way to restore Danny by the end of the season.

 

But what do I know...maybe Moffat is planning to kill Clara off instead, just to spite my speculations.

[HauntedBathroom]

12 and Clara might very well be the Doctor's most unhealthy relationship with a companion.

No, that'll always be Ten/Rose.

Edited October 11, 2015 by HauntedBathroom

[tankgirl73]

The sunglasses may be silly, but I kind of liked seeing the arm jammed into something to fix it in this ep.

 

I have to confess, they're kind of growing on me.  I concurrently think they're utterly stupid and have to go, and that they're very useful in that form and kinda neat. Like when he 'erased' the memory of the words by putting the sunglasses on Cass -- for a moment I thought he was using them to 'test' her, since I'd been sort of suspicious that she knew more than she was letting on.

 

I wonder at what moment the Doctor figured out the loop. I think at the start, when he learned about his ghost, he legitimately believed he had to die. But somewhere along the way, likely when he got the message about the character names and the chamber opening, he figured it out. He didn't have to break time, or cheat time, he just had to pull a timey wimey loop.

 

It was a lot like the impossible astronaut -- we saw the doctor dead and that was therefore a fixed point. But it wasn't actually the doctor. The real doctor was tucked away safely inside. It's not that at one time it was the doctor, and then he changed things so that 'next time' it was a fake doctor -- it always was a fake doctor, we just learned the sequence of events out of order.

 

I wish he'd referred to that. When he was explaining it, the others could have been a bit befuddled by it all and he'd say something like "oh... you know... wibbly wobbly and all that... happens all the time in fact..."

 

I liked the bootstrap/Beethoven explanation, partly because I'm a professional classical musician hee. The notion that Beethoven was a nice chap who liked arm wrestling tickles in just the right way. And I don't really mind the fourth wall breaking. BUT, it didn't feel like it belonged as part of the *episode*. It would have been perfect as a webisode. Released a day before the episode, a teaser as to how the doctor was going to solve this conundrum to build up hype and expectations for part 2. It just felt too much like a separate thing. Whereas the webisode/prequel with the medieval town felt like it should have been part of the episode (at least in part).

 

I enjoyed knowing there was going to be some sort of bootstrap loop, but not knowing exactly what it was. I'd figured from the moment that the doctor decided to go back to before the flood, that he was going to *cause* the flood. But what other causality was going to come from him? Did he actually write the words on the wall, did he have a plan where the words were actually the rescue and not the problem? Most of what he actually did, I managed to figure out -- but only just as he did it. Show the chamber activating? Ooooh the doctor put himself in there and he's been waiting 200 years to emerge. Out he pops. But if he does that, how do we explain the ghost? Ooooh it disappeared in the farraday room, it was just a projection. I should have figured it was too unlikely for him to be talking to himself the way that he did -- even over the phone, it's always been hugely problematic for the doctor to interact with another 'version' of himself on a different part of his time stream, alive or dead. The fact that it was so easy this time should have been a clue.

 

I did like the guitar added to the opening theme. This version of the theme has always felt kind of flat and stale to me... now it felt right. Mostly a subtle addition, but provides the needed energy.

Edited October 11, 2015 by tankgirl73

[Primetimer]

The ultimate warning system will no longer be silent, even when it probably should.

Read the story

[Toaster Strudel]

I thoroughly enjoyed this one.  Visually, the Fisher King was a great monster and the accompanying sound effects were suitably terrifying.  The undertaker from the planet that begs to be dominated brought some humor; there could have been a smidgen more, but I won't quibble.  There were a lot of shots of Clara's most lovely face, and she kept her mouth shut and her drama under wraps, so that worked out too.  The cast of characters was a rich tapestry; the two-parters are growing on me.

[KirkB]

I liked the episode overall, and I must admit the "it has to happen that way because that's how it happened" thing used to annoy me but they've gotten better at it by make what happened not be what you think. That trick only works so many times before you know what they're doing though so you have to keep it entertaining, and I think they have been more or less doing that.

On the other hand, I am not looking forward to an entire season of two parters. One or two in a season sure, but they have a tendency to stretch out with filler and that's not always fun to watch. Still, I like the show enough it's not a deal breaker for me.

[Mabinogia]

Clara's face is lovely, but every single shot of it seemed to be her looking smug. I'm just more and more getting the feeling that in her mind the Doctor belongs to her, like he's her little pet there to bring her on adventures when she feels like it and save her when she stupidly goes running into traffic. I don't want to hate her but they show is making it very, very hard not to.

 

I do wonder, though, if the writers get what a lot of us seem to notice, that this combination of Doctor/Companion has become toxic. She does bring out the worst in him with that whole responsibility of care shit. Unless he figured everything out after O'Donnell's death, then he chose to let her die which is pretty shitty, in order to give him the sense of urgency to save Clara, because he told Clara he put her name next so that eh would finally do something to stop all of this? really? Saving O'Donnell wasn't enough, saving yourself wasn't enough, saving all of them wasn't enough, but OMG! It's Clara's turn to die! I have to break all the rules I live by to save the little twit! (sorry about that, but this particular bit of the story really made me hate her).

 

O'Donnell squeeing out over the Tardis was adorable. As much as I was relieved the show seemed to have skipped that whole "bigger on the inside" bit for the umpteenth time, I thought it was actually pretty clever the way they wrote it this time. As much as I get why they picked her to die, since her death would have more impact than the other guy, I am bummed because I would have loved her to come back as a companion, even if just for a couple trips.

 

I did like the TARDIS tour though. Man what I would give to spend the day wondering through those shelves. I love the latest look of the TARDIS.

 

For the record, I like the guitar, Capaldi has a kind of Keith Richardsy feel to him. I'm not into the sunglasses but mostly because the screwdriver is so iconic and I don't see the point of replacing it. It feels...disrespectful to the franchise in a way, which isn't surprising coming from Moffatt who seems to think he's better than Doctor Who and should rewrite everything about it. But the glasses were well used this episode.

 

All in all, can't wait for Clara to go so I can really enjoy Capaldi.

[ratgirlagogo]

 

 

For the record, I like the guitar, Capaldi has a kind of Keith Richardsy feel to him. I'm not into the sunglasses but mostly because the screwdriver is so iconic and I don't see the point of replacing it. It feels...disrespectful to the franchise in a way, which isn't surprising coming from Moffatt who seems to think he's better than Doctor Who and should rewrite everything about it. But the glasses were well used this episode.

All in all, can't wait for Clara to go so I can really enjoy Capaldi.

I'm just afraid that all the writers are going to have to go before I can really enjoy Capaldi.  I think he's a great (and cool!) Doctor but the writers clearly are uneasy with him for reasons I just can't fathom.   Agree that the sunglasses worked for this episode, but I hope they bring back the screwdriver. I can deal with the sunglasses or the guitar but both are a little much.  

 

I think the guitar is odd, I'd like it explained a bit. Why is he playing the guitar now? Is it someone specials guitar? 

That I could buy.

 

did like the guitar added to the opening theme. This version of the theme has always felt kind of flat and stale to me... now it felt right. Mostly a subtle addition, but provides the needed energy.

Are these two things connected........? agree the guitar improves the theme, I've wanted them to add this kind of color for years.

Edited October 11, 2015 by ratgirlagogo

[Mabinogia]

I'm just afraid that all the writers are going to have to go before I can really enjoy Capaldi.  I think he's a great (and cool!) Doctor but the writers clearly are uneasy with him for reasons I just can't fathom.  

This is sadly true. IDK why these middle age men have such a problem writing for an older Doctor. It's like they are afraid the "kids" watching won't be able to wrap their heads around a Doctor who isn't young  so they focus too much on younger Clara and try too hard to make the Doctor seem "hip" and "young".

 

It's annoying and very disrespectful to the audience. Most of us are here for the unique storylines this show has the potential to tell, with the time travel and space travel and an alien being the lead character, not because we have the hots for the actor playing the Doctor.

 

It is true that you can't please everyone but I feel like they are displeasing far more people than they are pleasing at this point. I'm sure there is a small segment that enjoy the bigger roll the companion is playing this time around because they like Clara, but this show isn't really called Clara's Travels with Some Old Guy. If they want to spin her off ala Mary Jane, go for it, but let's really explore an older regeneration of the Doctor. Let's really get into the idea that, how did he put it, this regeneration being a "clerical error". That would be really interesting. I feel like they touch on it, they did this ep, with him seeming more willing to give up his life since this life was kind of an extra, but then they went and made it about Clara....again. So frustrating, for me at least.

[sluggish neko]

I still have problems with the sunglasses and the hoodie, but I agree the sunglasses were used pretty well in this episode. Though I wonder, when did the Doctor figure out how to erase the imprinted message? Because it would have been nice to have done it for Bennett and O'Donnell to save them from danger, which leads me to agree with this:

 

Unless he figured everything out after O'Donnell's death, then he chose to let her die which is pretty shitty, in order to give him the sense of urgency to save Clara, because he told Clara he put her name next so that eh would finally do something to stop all of this? really? Saving O'Donnell wasn't enough, saving yourself wasn't enough, saving all of them wasn't enough, but OMG! It's Clara's turn to die! I have to break all the rules I live by to save the little twit! (sorry about that, but this particular bit of the story really made me hate her).

 

That WAS a crap way to treat his fangirl and I'm glad Bennett called him on it. His effort to prevent her death was so very weaksauce and it was obvious he knew it was going to happen. Maybe it's part of the complicated fixed-time rules, but if he had given himself the message, couldn't he have put his oh-so-precious Clara's name before O'Donnell's? Did she really have to die? And why did her ghost conveniently show up later on the ocean base? Where was it hanging out all this time?

 

Still, I generally liked this episode and that's mostly because I liked the ocean base crew. They were all well-portrayed. I also thought the hook-up between Cass and Lunn was unnecessary. She had good reason to be so protective of him-- without Lunn, she can't communicate-- and his job is to be attentive to her. It's a close bond, but it doesn't have to be romantic love. With all the pairings among the crew, I'm thinking that Moran and Pritchard were a couple too. Heh.

 

Capaldi used to be in a punk band, which is why I don't mind the guitar. Hey, maybe Craig Ferguson will make an appearance.

[pcta]

Like Capaldi. There was for me (and I can't put my finger on why) a Tom Baker Doctor feeling to part 2. I'm not sure that I like the feeling of return to Classic Doctor Who (including somewhat cheesy monsters). I really liked the 9th and 10th Doctors (the 11th - not so much) and the "more modern" take on the Doctor. I liked The 12th last season. Not sure on the direction of this season tho'

[ratgirlagogo]

 

Capaldi used to be in a punk band, which is why I don't mind the guitar

This is just why I DO mind the guitar.  It's like the writers don't think younger viewers will see Capaldi as an old punk unless he's actually holding a guitar.  I think they're underestimating the audience.

[Mabinogia]

They should have split the difference and just had a sonic guitar. He could have warn it across his back like a wild west gunslinger and slayed his enemies with his mad tunes.

 

I watch a lot of TV and am fascinated by the people behind the scenes and yes, these ones seem to underestimate their audience more than most. It's maddening because Doctor Who fans are some of the most intelligent I come across. They have to be. Wrapping your head around time travel is not for the casual viewer. Sci fi fans in general often seem to put more thought into their viewing for that reason. Don't insult us, we already got the "brilliant" concept of the 11/12 old man in a young mans body/young man in an old mans body idea. Time to move on.

[ganesh]

I really liked the supporting cast in this two-parter. I don't mind the commander and her translator being in love because he seemed to obviously be in love with her in part 1 imo. And there was a death that stuck and had an impact on the story. I always like "base" settings anyway. The one with 'the devil' and Ten comes to mind. 

 

I thought the confrontation was clever with the Fisher King. The Doctor tricked him. That's what the Doctor does. I don't like shouty "I am the DOCTOR". I like clever tricky Doctor. 

 

I liked this one too because this was the Doctor at the end telling Davros, "I knew you would do that." There was an actual plan that we could figure out. I figured when the casket started opening it was the Doctor, since he deliberately tripped the TARDIS to escape.

 

I'm not a huge fan of this kind of time travel paradox, but it's Doctor Who. If this is going to happen anywhere, it's here. And they previously used the Clara hologram last time, so it's not like they suddenly made that up either. 

 

I don't mind Clara stepping up now and then. That's what the Doctor does to the companions. But last season was too much. This was a good Clara being effective without taking over the episode. 

[Terrafamilia]

The intro was unnecessary. It just helped pad out a two part story that could have been done in one.

 

The Doctor was wearing his coat but he still had his hobo hoodie on underneath.

 

Lunn going off and leaving Cass translatorless shows how the setup isn't viable for a proper military, only for some progressive non-military military which takes care to not get itself involved in anything dangerous and military-like.

 

O'Donnell being a Doctor fangirl and the Fisher King (why did the writers choose to use that name?) knowing all about the Time Lords and what they're all about brings up one of my gripes with NuWho. The Doctor is the most important, most famous person in the universe. Everybody knows about him. Go into any alien diner, drive-in, or dive and regardless of where they are in the space-faring alien pecking order they will know about him and those pesky Time-Lords. It makes the universe seem to be a small, cramped, and inbred place rather than vast, open, and full of mystery.

[benteen]

The Doctor being famous doesn't bother me at all.  He's spent over 2,000 years saving lives and galaxies so of course a lot of people would know who he is.

[Dave in Chicago]

I have one thing I'd change about this episode: Bennett should have died instead of O'Donnell. As others have said (here and elsewhere), they've killed off similar fangirl characters before, and this particular death was pretty poorly staged. Better story: Bennet gets the axe, so O'Donnell is the one who has to come to terms with what travel with the Doctor is really like (outside of the files she read), the danger of meeting your heroes, etc. It'd be a much more interesting dynamic.

[ganesh]

The time Eleven spent "off screen" was several hundred years too, and the blue guy who was just a head in the box went on and on about how the Doctor is quite a notorious figure now. Plus, the Doctor leaves quite an indelible mark wherever he goes. I'm surprised there's not more tall tales about him. 

 

I don't think this was a padded two parter simply because this second part let us learn more about the crew, and honestly, the show has been short on character. For the Twelve era, this was a good character story, there were decent stakes, it was kind of scary, Clara didn't take over the show, and the Doctor was clever and outsmarted the enemy. Those are elements of a good story. I'll take that every week. 

[benteen]

I realized I did make a mistake.  The Doctor didn't load the deck.  He just tricked the Fisher King into making a mistake.

[HouseofBeck]

Not as strong as last week's episode, but some enjoyable moments in there.  I loved the image of the Fisher King looming above Twelve, but their showdown seemed to get resolved too quickly.   I wish O'Donnell hadn't died; she was a fun character, more interesting than Bennett.  And the kiss between Cass and Lunn felt shoehorned in.  Still, I do think the acting has been excellent all S9, and Sophie Stone, the actress who played Cass, was especially good (loved the scene where she tells Clara off for convincing Lunn to get the phone).  The part where she walks down the corridor, unable to hear Moran dragging the axe behind her, was really well done.  I also liked the eeriness of the Soviet-style town--the imagery was so evocative, I wonder if, besides the fact that the TARDIS landed in 1980, there was a thematic reason for the set decor.  

 

Yeah, I felt this didn't hold up as well nor was it as Classic Who as last week's episode, not that it has to be Classic Who, but since it had already started out that way...

 

Yet it WAS eerie, that silent Soviet-mock-up of a town. 

 

I really wanted O'Donnell to be the next companion! Oh well.

 

I loved the Cass/Moran scene, it was wonderfully creepy. I wish it had happened earlier in the episode to heighten the psychological suspense; it came late enough that I knew she'd survive, but I still enjoyed it. I was telling her to feel the vibrations on the floor, already! Deliciously scary, though.

 

I hated the Doctor breaking the 4th wall at the start end end of the episode. I really hope that doesn't become a thing, like the stupid sunglasses and guitar playing.

 

I absolutely hated the pre-credits scene. Don't break the 4th wall! Much as I've always wanted to travel with the Doctor and be his one & only companion (hearkening back to my Tom Baker days), I still didn't want him talking to me out of the screen. It shook me right out of the episode before it even began.

 

The guitar, the sunglasses...I miss that ol' sonic screwdriver. It WAS funny when he stuck the glasses into the console, though. 

 

ETA: I forgot about the Fisher King. Looked great in the darkness & gloom. Looked like a guy in a Halloween costume out in the light of day.

Edited October 12, 2015 by HouseofBeck

[buttersister]

Whatever Capaldi's selling, I'm buying.

 

Between all the ghosts and the falling anvils, I half expected the ghost of Danny Pink to show up and take Clara away with him. Bye, Felicia!

[darkestboy]

I thought it was good but lacked a bit compared to the first part.

 

Not enough screen time was given to either the Fisher King or Prentis, which was a shame.

 

Little bummed O'Donnell died as I really liked her but at least they didn't cheat with the ghosts and resolution.

 

Clara is so not making it out of this series alive. They're really sign posting something bad happening.

 

Loved the rockier theme but no more Twelve on guitar please, 7/10.

[Ringthane]

I think one of my favorite parts was when the Doctor went back to the TARDIS and said "I'm going back to the future to stop the ghosts, and nothing and nobody is going to stop me!".  And immediately, the cloister bell goes off.  The look on his face was perfect. 

 

Yeah, it was surprising that for a Moffat story (whoever wrote the script), that people died and stayed dead.  I figured they'd all be projections of some kind and that the people would be alive at the end.  But this time, everybody that died was really dead.  Very good, Moffat.  You're learning.  I do agree with whoever said it would have been better for the guy to die and for O'Donnell to live, so that she could see traveling with the Doctor isn't the grand adventure she thought it was.

 

Also, I agree that the stories this season have seemed a little padded to reach two parts, so far.  "The Magician's Apprentice" has a lot of stuff in the first part that could have been trimmed (the whole part in 1138 or whatever could have been trimmed up quite a bit), and once the Fisher King was introduced, he only had one or two scenes before the Doctor beat him and everything was tidied up.  Both stories seemed to have enough content for about one and a half episodes, but not quite two.  But I don't think anybody could argue that Doctor Who's production standards have really stepped up - the shot with the Fisher King being overtaken by the water looked as good as a lot of the stuff you'd see out there.  A far cry from the CSO blue screens of the 70s.

 

And they really did come through when they said this season would be darker than the last ones.  Even the TARDIS feels a bit darker and less hospitable this year than it did last year.  It just seems like there's something...  Hiding, or something, for want of a better word.  Like there's something else in there besides the Doctor.  Which I know was worked out in "Listen".  But there are times when it feels like there's something in there that we're supposed to see, but is hiding just out of sight, just like the door in Amy's house.  It's probably just me, but it just feels a little darker in there and a little less open and inviting.  Maybe she's being a bit more protective of her Doctor now that he's on a new cycle of lives, but goes around telling people he's a "clerical error".  I don't know what it is - something just feels different since the shift from the blue lighting to the orange ones.

[benteen]

Toby Whithouse wrote this two-parter, thus explaining why the dead characters stayed dead.

[cardigirl]

From seeing the Fisher King in the trailer released before the show started up again, I had hoped they were revisiting the story from Torchwood about the children sacrificed to the aliens. Such a dark story and Peter Capaldi was excellent in it. 

 

So was unprepared for ghosts. Or underwater stuff.

 

I dunno.  I liked part one of this story better than part two, but I still miss the style and feeling from Doctor Eleven's tenure and the first year of Doctor Twelve. This just seems cold to me. 

 

I was sad that O'Donnell died but loved the doctor tackling the Bennett when Bennett tried to go to her in the half-hour loop. (Love the actor who played Bennett, he was wonderful in Arthur and George).  

 

And I'm glad the Doctor cares enough about Clara to try to save her, would have been disappointed in him if he didn't. However, his "this planet is protected" speech to the Fisher King felt flat to me.  Supposed to be heroic, but I didn't feel it. 

 

Fingers crossed that next week is better.

[Tarasme]

Couple of things:

1. Like so many of the two part episodes in the Moffatt run, episode 1 was spiffy and interesting while episode 2 felt rushed and "store's closing, time to go even if you're not quite done shopping."

2. I think the old/wise, young/cool contradictions are interesting. I'd like more of that, at length. What I don't want are the philosophical implications to be an afterthought or a text placed on the work by us audience members desperate for deeper meaning. I thought Twelve would be explored as the Doctor FINALLY coming to terms with his place in the universe and his role in the destruction of his species (or whatever/wherever they are now). Opening up to the pain that has been denied for hundreds of years and is now packed into his craggy face... but they're showing him as *still* running from who he is? The "cool" markers like the guitar,hoodie, and the glasses look like more denial than dealing and actually being cool. If tPtB are building a Twelve that cannot deal with himself therefore he's escaping into the trappings of a mid-life crisis,... well crap. 

3. Is every week going to be a reminder that the Doctor believes he needs to/wants to/will die? Like the last three series (and series gap of specials)? Cause, egads, that's a show that's going to build a long queue on my DVR before I get around to watching it. I thought we were over this when Wilf banged a couple of times. No? How 'bout when invites were sent? Not then? Trenzalore? Ughughugh. I will be sad if all season is dominated by impending Doctor death.

4. Glad they could fridge another damsel for man pain. Especially since that man could then convince another man not to allow his unexplored man feelings to end in similar man pain. Ugh. And I don't usually get to worked up about the fridging. Kill all the chicks, what do I care? This time it bothered. In the end, I guess the figurative fridge is where all Doctor companions end up cause the Doctor would be unemotive otherwise. *sigh*

5. Even with all the above complaints, I like Capaldi. I don't care about Coleman. What's next week again?

[azshadowwalker]

This is just why I DO mind the guitar.  It's like the writers don't think younger viewers will see Capaldi as an old punk unless he's actually holding a guitar.  I think they're underestimating the audience.

 

Besides, this isn't about Capaldi's past. He's supposed to be playing a character on a TV show, not reliving his own real life past.