Captain America: Civil War (2016)

[Jazzy24]

My issue with the line about Tony also being Steve's friend is that there is a huge difference in the friendship between Tony and Steve and Steve and Bucky. Steve gets back his best friend from childhood, the only person left (other than Peggy who isn't doing well) who remembers him before he was Captain America. That's just one part of it. They didn't do a good job of establishing Tony and Steve's friendship in the movies but even if they had it still doesn't reach the level of friendship Steve and Bucky have.

True, but it was still sad to hear Tony say that

[emma675]

Oy, this trailer hit me in all the feels. I think I'm going to both adore and hate this one all at the same time. I hate when they fight.

 

But if I have to pick a side, Team Stucky all the way. I adore Bucky and Steve.

[Jenniferbug]

HoodlumSheep, I feel your pain. If you're one of 5 people who still like Tony best, I think I'm one of 2 who love Hawkeye. I like both Tony and Steve a lot too, for the record.

I feel like this movie (while awesome) is going to be difficult for me to watch. The Avengers movies are my favorites, so watching my team implode will be a struggle. Heck, watching that trailer was rough! Double teaming Tony? Dick move, Cap.

I like Bucky and Sebastian Stan is definitely eye candy, but I don't really get the fuss over him. I suspect that if Sebastian was half as good looking, the character wouldn't be nearly as popular (among the movie audience anyway, I'm sure the comic fans have more reasons to love him).

Can someone clear this up for me? They're not doing the Registration Act storyline, right? I think I've read that they said they're not anyway. So is all this over Bucky and what rights he may have after his life as Winter Soldier? Or is he just the starting point for all of them to be regulated (work for Shield or whoever)? Because if it's mostly about Bucky, why would Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, Ant Man, Black Panther, etc even really care? I mean, I get that they might want to stand up for him on principle, but they have no personal attachment to him so to have a Civil War over him seems odd. And does Ant Man even know any of these people? Or Panther? Why be involved at all, especially if it's over one person's fate? I feel like I'm missing a big piece of motivation, because that trailer seemed like this was all about Bucky.

[nobodyyoucare]

In Ant-Man there was a scene discussing the Sokovia accords. You know the country that was almost destroyed by Ultron in Age of Ultron?

 

Basically enhanced individuals have international regulations put on place on them for military/law enforcement work. 

[fireice13]

http://www.empireonline.com/movies/features/captain-america-civil-war-trailer-breakdown/

 

This is an article with some explanation from the Russos. They say that they're doing these Accords instead of the Registration Act. Due to the differences between the comics and movies already they wanted to make it more personal and have the reason why people pick different sides be something meaningful to them. It seems like this is one of those movies that is "based on" something and therefore not entirely accurate when it comes to the source material. I have a feeling it will end differently than it did in the comics.

[nobodyyoucare]

Registration Act was handled badly in the comics. Mutants were supporting it when they had a real hatred of the exact same restrictions in the superhero registration when it was titled the mutant registration act. Also it made Iron Man out to be a villian instead of what appears in the movie someone who came to accept that superheroes need limits put on them otherwise they are no different then the bad guys.

[Jenniferbug]

Thank you, Nobodyyoucare and fireice13. I haven't seen Ant Man yet (I know, turn in my nerd card) so I had forgotten what I've read about that scene mentioning the accords. I think that's likely the piece in their motivation that I was missing.  

 

That breakdown of the trailer was awesome! 

[Danny Franks]

I will forever be a fan of Bucky, because his resurrection and eventual ascendancy to be Captain America, as written by Ed Brubaker, is one of the best comic book stories I've ever read. It was powerful and emotional, and had some truly iconic moments, involving several longstanding Marvel characters.

 

While Captain America 2 was a great movie, and it did adequately portray Bucky as the seriously competent, deadly Winter Soldier, it obviously didn't have any time to develop him further. That's what I want from this movie. And I will not be satisfied with CGI-heavy smackdowns of Iron Man or any other characters being used instead of character development.

 

I still don't buy the combination of the SHRA with Tony trying to get revenge on Bucky. It probably won't give them enough room to do either story justice. And honestly, I think Civil War should be the culmination and partial reset of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, the bowing out of the likes of Chris Evans and RDJ when they've had enough. It should happen once audiences care about enough of the secondary characters for it to have resonance when they turn on one another.

 

That "so was I" line is the perfect example. Yes, in the comic books Tony and Steve had years and years of history and friendship and loyalty to one another. Them taking different sides was a genuinely huge, dynamic-shifting moment. In the movies, they've known each other for, what, a couple of years? And they never seemed that friendly.

[Shannon L.]

 

I will forever be a fan of Bucky, because his resurrection and eventual ascendancy to be Captain America, as written by Ed Brubaker, is one of the best comic book stories I've ever read. It was powerful and emotional, and had some truly iconic moments, involving several longstanding Marvel characters.

 

While Captain America 2 was a great movie, and it did adequately portray Bucky as the seriously competent, deadly Winter Soldier, it obviously didn't have any time to develop him further.

I've never read the comics, but Bucky is my favorite and all it really took for me to start feeling deeply about the character was when he said "He knew me" (or was it "I knew him)?) with that look of confusion on his face.  That's why I'm so invested in Bucky as a villain and a sympathetic character.  Like Black Widow, he was given no choice in the matter--he was taken in by an evil organization, manipulated and drugged, experimented on and left with not much choice but to do their bidding. He was a thing to them.  As much as I enjoy Loki and Tom Hiddleston's portrayal, I'll never really see him as more than a kid having a temper tantrum because he was adopted (His father saved him from dying as an infant in spite of the fact that he was a child of their enemy, for God's sake!).  I know there are others who have been manipulated and are working for one organization or another, but the fact that The Winter Soldier turned out to be Bucky was like a punch in the gut. 

 

 

I like Bucky and Sebastian Stan is definitely eye candy, but I don't really get the fuss over him. I suspect that if Sebastian was half as good looking, the character wouldn't be nearly as popular (among the movie audience anyway, I'm sure the comic fans have more reasons to love him).

Well, it doesn't hurt  :)  Seriously, though, for me, outside of TWS, I simply find him to be cute.  There's something about the way he plays TWS/Bucky that makes him sympathetic to me.  Like I said:  "He knew me"---almost made me want to cry. 

 

Oh man, I think I've become too invested in these movies.....what am I going to do when they are over?  lol! 

[Hybridcookie]

Jenniferbug, on 26 Nov 2015 - 04:17 AM, said:

HoodlumSheep, I feel your pain. If you're one of 5 people who still like Tony best, I think I'm one of 2 who love Hawkeye. I like both Tony and Steve a lot too, for the record.

 

I know the feeling about being in the minority about Hawkeye, he's my favourite, along with Thor and the Maximoff twins. I also have no interest in Steve or Bucky - which leaves me in a tiny fandom corner of my own.

 

I will be mostly be watching this for Clint and Wanda, however much they're in it, as well as Natasha and Falcon

[VCRTracking]

I noticed in the shot of the "Sovakian Accords" being handed out the hands receiving them were Wanda's(woman's hands, fingerless gloves, nail polish and rings).

[KatWay]

I don't really get the fuss about Bucky. The Winter Soldier made a good villain but other than that I just don't care. Sebastian Stan is good-looking but I don't find him very charismatic. He doesn't draw me in on screen. And honestly Steven and Bucky's friendship was like three scenes in the original CA, he went to war, he was saved, he died.

 

The Peggy/Steve romance resonated with me far more and I'm not a romantic at all and actually think most MCU pairing are the weakest elements of the movies. But Hayley Atwell and Chris Evans really sold me on this one. Shame it had to be the one that couldn't last! Emily VanCamp is fine, but I doubt Sharon/Steve will hold a candle to Peggy/Steve.

 

I wish they'd done a better job of setting up the Tony/Steve friendship, because imagine what this movie could be like if they had...but whatever, I'll take it. Ironically I bought them as friends in Ultron even though they were at odds with each other. They sought each other out and had a good rapport. I also noticed that Steve was the most prominently displayed victim in Tony's "everybody's dead" vision. The actors have good chemistry. 

[Raja]

Can someone clear this up for me? They're not doing the Registration Act storyline, right? I think I've read that they said they're not anyway. So is all this over Bucky and what rights he may have after his life as Winter Soldier? Or is he just the starting point for all of them to be regulated (work for Shield or whoever)? Because if it's mostly about Bucky, why would Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, Ant Man, Black Panther, etc even really care? I mean, I get that they might want to stand up for him on principle, but they have no personal attachment to him so to have a Civil War over him seems odd. And does Ant Man even know any of these people? Or Panther? Why be involved at all, especially if it's over one person's fate? I feel like I'm missing a big piece of motivation, because that trailer seemed like this was all about Bucky.

There is nobody to register in the MCU yet. Daredevil is about the only secret identity vigilante running around. Beyond that there are the Inhumans being rounded up by the ATCU and SHIELD on the Agents of SHIELD who are being treated a lot more harshly then mere registering. There may be the rumors of a Spider-man and the likes. I am guessing it comes down to who has political control over The Avengers or other vigilante and perhaps national groups who emerge

[AimingforYoko]

RDJ had all of his furniture brought to the Civil War shoot. (And had Disney pay for it)      

That is a total Stark move.

[Jenniferbug]

I know the feeling about being in the minority about Hawkeye, he's my favourite, along with Thor and the Maximoff twins. I also have no interest in Steve or Bucky - which leaves me in a tiny fandom corner of my own.

 

I will be mostly be watching this for Clint and Wanda, however much they're in it, as well as Natasha and Falcon

I knew there had to be someone else! Table for two...

[wlk68]

I knew there had to be someone else! Table for two...

 

 

Add a plate for me at your table as well, please. I'm a huge Hawkeye fan and was thrilled with the extra storyline for him in AoU. Kinda bummed he wasn't with Natasha romantically but found myself really liking Linda Cardellini as Laura Barton. I'm hoping we see more of Clint in Civil War than just at the big gang rumble shown in the trailer

Edited November 27, 2015 by wlk68

[Demented Daisy]

That "so was I" line is the perfect example. Yes, in the comic books Tony and Steve had years and years of history and friendship and loyalty to one another. Them taking different sides was a genuinely huge, dynamic-shifting moment. In the movies, they've known each other for, what, a couple of years? And they never seemed that friendly.

 

Reminds me of this:

 

[Zuleikha]

What fanbase would that be? Anyone who had been paying attention to the negative comments about Black Widow would have realized he was mocking the negative comments.

That is not at all how it came across to me, and Renner has a history of jerky comments. It's not like this was a one-time anomalous thing (that would be Chris Evans's behavior).

 

Like Black Widow, he was given no choice in the matter--he was taken in by an evil organization, manipulated and drugged, experimented on and left with not much choice but to do their bidding. He was a thing to them.

Yeah, that's how I feel. I don't have a strong connection to the Winter Soldier yet--he didn't have much to do in the second movie other than be brainwashed--but his story is so tragic. I want him to have a chance to live as himself. 

[stealinghome]

Yeah, neither Bucky not Stucky do much for me, but I'm totally Team Cap here. And count me in as another who isn't buying Tony and Steve's "friendship." The movies are conveniently forgetting that in the movieverse, they're probably the Avengers LEAST likely to hang out.

I also can't help but find Tony hugely hypocritical here, as well. He can talk a big game about accepting limitations and whatnot (...because recent history proves that overseer institutions are oh so reliable in the MCU-verse?), but let's be real, we all know that the moment those limitations become inconvenient for Tony, he'll throw them away and do what he pleases. I can't take him seriously as some sort of "listen to the man" type.

Edited November 27, 2015 by stealinghome

[KatWay]

 

the moment those limitations become inconvenient for Tony, he'll throw them away and do what he pleases. I can't take him seriously as some sort of "listen to the man" type.

Me neither and I think it's a pity they feel like they have to go with the comics storyline on this because for the Cap and Tony of the MCU it doesn't make a ton of sense. Steve just in the last movie advised his teammates to work together, and not to do whatever they felt like, that they were accountable for what they did. Steve worked for the government, for Shield, then reformed Shield in the last movie. Tony rejected any and all government/Shield interference. Even with the Ultron thing, that was resolved by Tony once again going solo and creating Vision. So why would he suddenly advocate for more restrictions? 

 

That said still Team Ironman, simply because we all know Team Cap will win in the end and be morally superior and whatnot, so I'm already annoyed with it.

[VCRTracking]

A really big difference the MCU versions of Steve and Tony is they have a sense of humor which the comic book counterparts didn't have. It's why Hawkeye stood out as the wisass of the group. Obviously Iron Man became a lot funnier once Robert Downey Jr. played him but Steve cab be wry and ironic too. I liked his "Well it's been a long day." remark after Tony said he seemed a little defensive.

 

That is not at all how it came across to me, and Renner has a history of jerky comments. It's not like this was a one-time anomalous thing (that would be Chris Evans's behavior).

 

Chris laughed because it was such an outrageous comment to make which was why Renner made it.  The interviewer was asking a typically inane question about which teammate Black Widow was going to be involved with and Renner couldn't give a crap about the subject.

Edited November 27, 2015 by VCRTracking

[Shannon L.]

 

And honestly Steven and Bucky's friendship was like three scenes in the original CA, he went to war, he was saved, he died.

That's true, but if you really like Cap as a character, you know honest and sincere he is, and through him, I'm connected to Bucky's story on a more personal level.  Although,  the Peggy/Steve relationship resonates with me a lot and my heart breaks for them as well.  Damn....it just occurred to me that Steve is a really sad character, isn't he?  It's amazing he's doing so well in present day.

[Danny Franks]

That said still Team Ironman, simply because we all know Team Cap will win in the end and be morally superior and whatnot, so I'm already annoyed with it.

 

Well, Team Iron Man won in the comic book story, ushering in an era of oppression for superheroes in the Marvel universe. Of course, Tony himself didn't win, because he lost his best friend, the respect of much of the superhero community, and ultimately lost his position as Director of SHIELD.

 

I doubt the movie will go the same way, unless the next instalments are planned as much darker movies.

[wlk68]

I doubt the movie will go the same way, unless the next instalments are planned as much darker movies.

 

 

I'd say that's a distinct possibility. Other than Civil War, what movies are part of this phase? Thor: Ragnarock, Dr. Strange. ... what else? GoG 2? Not sure about Guardians but the others seem pretty dark, or at least darker, and it all culminates with battling Thanos, yes?

[morakot]

I doubt Sharon/Steve will hold a candle to Peggy/Steve

Or even to Steve/Bucky or Steve/Falcon....They are his friends and his brothers in arms, and they are what he needs.  Steve's a romantic and when he falls, he falls hard; I don't think (or is that hope?) that he falls hard for Sharon.

 

 

[VCRTracking]

I like this article at Birth.Movies.Death about Captain America: Civil War about the main conflict between Captain America and Iron Man:

 

"Best Of Frenemies"

 

First paragraph:

 

“Sorry, Tony. You know I wouldn’t do this if I had any other choice… but he’s my friend.”

    “So was I.”

For the faithful that exchange in the Captain America: Civil War trailer brings chills; it’s the perfect distillation of the emotional stakes in the upcoming Marvel Studios film, and a culmination of almost ten years of longform storytelling. For others that exchange fell flat as they wondered just what movies established Captain America and Iron Man as best pals of any sort. That’s an understandable point of view if you’ve not been invested in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, although I think it’s still very short-sighted. It presumes there’s only one kind of friendship, the very broad bro-down sort of relationship that Steve Rogers and Sam Wilson have. But the relationship between Steve and Tony Stark is more complicated, and fits better under the term ‘frenemies,’ and - as so many things do to my obsessed mind - recalls the strange, complex and bitter relationship between Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr. That friendship, you’ll recall, ended with a deadly duel. Will Civil War end the same way?

 

[Danny Franks]

Or even to Steve/Bucky or Steve/Falcon....They are his friends and his brothers in arms, and they are what he needs.  Steve's a romantic and when he falls, he falls hard; I don't think (or is that hope?) that he falls hard for Sharon.

 

The Steve/Sharon relationship in Brubaker's story was actually pretty powerful, and not just because of the twist. It was well written, realistic, and was the first time I ever really got a sense of Steve Rogers as a normal guy with normal interests. But it's all about time, and this one movie will not have enough time to build it up as anything but a new-found mutual attraction. Of course, by the time Brubaker got to write them, Sharon and Steve had been linked for decades.

 

Brubaker established mutual interests in finding the Winter Soldier, by having Sharon's ex-boyfriend be the victim of a bombing that the Winter Soldier orchestrated. So you had Steve determined to find out if it was truly Bucky, Sharon wanting revenge, and both Falcon and Iron Man were on hand to help Steve out as his friends.

 

Then after Steve died, Tony tasked Sharon and Falcon with finding Bucky in accordance with Steve's wishes, and brought Natasha into the mix when she learned that Bucky, the guy she had some ancient history with, was still alive. It's something comic books allow for, because you have multiple titles every month, and you can really establish relationships in ways that movies don't allow.

 

I feel that the movies are short-changing or omitting a lot of these relationships, but still asking fans to care in the same way. It doesn't really work like that, unless people have become heavily invested in certain pairings through third-party material (read: fanfic).

[Spartan Girl]

Let's give Movie Sharon a chance. She's already earned some points for saving the computer guy who stood up to Rumlow in Winter Soldier. Not to mention the fact that when she was assigned to protect Steve, she didn't do the tired trope of seducing him/posing as his girlfriend to get close to him...which is probably the only reason why she turned down his coffee offer. So she's got some integrity.

[Emily Thrace]

I will forever be a fan of Bucky, because his resurrection and eventual ascendancy to be Captain America, as written by Ed Brubaker, is one of the best comic book stories I've ever read. It was powerful and emotional, and had some truly iconic moments, involving several longstanding Marvel characters.

 

While Captain America 2 was a great movie, and it did adequately portray Bucky as the seriously competent, deadly Winter Soldier, it obviously didn't have any time to develop him further. That's what I want from this movie. And I will not be satisfied with CGI-heavy smackdowns of Iron Man or any other characters being used instead of character development.

 

I still don't buy the combination of the SHRA with Tony trying to get revenge on Bucky. It probably won't give them enough room to do either story justice. And honestly, I think Civil War should be the culmination and partial reset of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, the bowing out of the likes of Chris Evans and RDJ when they've had enough. It should happen once audiences care about enough of the secondary characters for it to have resonance when they turn on one another.

 

That "so was I" line is the perfect example. Yes, in the comic books Tony and Steve had years and years of history and friendship and loyalty to one another. Them taking different sides was a genuinely huge, dynamic-shifting moment. In the movies, they've known each other for, what, a couple of years? And they never seemed that friendly.

 

I think what Tony and Steve have always had is a connection because of Howard Stark. Even when they were taking chunks out of each other in the first Avengers  Howard was the unspoken part of the conversation. They might call each other friend now but what they've always felt like to me is family Whether either of them admit it our not they are probably connected to each other more deeply than just about any other member of the team. Steve went to war with Tony's father too and he has always had a soft spot for Tony because of it. Just like Tony will always look up to Steve because of all the stories his father told him.  Even with them fighting in the trailer I don't think Cap would go to the point of truly hurting Tony because he's "Howie's Boy". Tony has a long list of people who have disappointed of left him, I think more than anything he's disappointed to add Cap to the list. Sure there a fair amount of Tony's usual I'm the center of the universe narcissism in there but there probably more child of alcoholic daddy trust issues in there more than anything else. That's not to say Steve isn't doing the right thing choosing Bucky I can just see Tony's point here as well. 

 

Also this is pure speculation at this point but based on the current storyline on Agent of SHIELD I'm thinking that they end up being the compromise in the end. Since their apolitical there not held to public opinion the way the UN is and they have better resources to handle empowered people better than the military. I can't see any of the parties involved objecting to SHIELD and I don't see Coulson locking up Bucky Barnes. Plus it brings Steve's story full circle. With him burning down SHIELD in the last movie he gets to bring it back in this one.

 

I don't really get the fuss about Bucky. The Winter Soldier made a good villain but other than that I just don't care. Sebastian Stan is good-looking but I don't find him very charismatic. He doesn't draw me in on screen. And honestly Steven and Bucky's friendship was like three scenes in the original CA, he went to war, he was saved, he died.

 

Some of that is history Steve\Bucky is one of oldest slash pairings around.and even the non slash fans they are a big draw. Sebastian Stan himself is fangirl catnip  I also think in terms of story Bucky ties together Steve story better than anyone else.

[Bruinsfan]

Slashy wishful thinking aside, Evans and Stan did a great job establishing a lifelong brotherly friendship in the first Captain America movie in only a handful of scenes together. The friendship between Black Widow and Hawkeye is the only other one between the heroes with similar depth and stakes. (As much as Whedon may have intended Natasha and Bruce to be a great tragic romance, having her angst about her barren womb meaning they can't have a life together when we only saw them begin flirtatiously feeling each other out about an hour earlier just doesn't fly for me. Most relationships require you to actually go on a first date before differences over child-rearing can tear you apart...)

[nobodyyoucare]

Slashy wishful thinking aside, Evans and Stan did a great job establishing a lifelong brotherly friendship in the first Captain America movie in only a handful of scenes together. The friendship between Black Widow and Hawkeye is the only other one between the heroes with similar depth and stakes. (As much as Whedon may have intended Natasha and Bruce to be a great tragic romance, having her angst about her barren womb meaning they can't have a life together when we only saw them begin flirtatiously feeling each other out about an hour earlier just doesn't fly for me. Most relationships require you to actually go on a first date before differences over child-rearing can tear you apart...)

Actually Black Widow brought about being barren when Bruce Banner said he couldn't have a relationship due to his fears about children inheriting his tainted dna. She was saying that she understands what it is like to be a monster due to what she was forced to do and that she cannot have children so he doesn't have to worry about that issue. 

[Kel Varnsen]

It is kind of interesting, after watching all of Jessica Jones on Netflix and seeing how they dealt with the effects of mind control, I think I am on Tony's side. While I don't think that Bucky should do life in prison for his crimes, if he killed someone under mind control are people just supposed to take his, or Cap, word for it and let him disappear without any kind of actual investigation or trial? A key thing to remember is that we the audience know a lot more about what happened to Bucky than what people in the MCU did. He killed Tony's parents, so what evidence does Tony have that it actually was mind control and not something he did under his own free will? In a world where this kind of thing can be common there has to be some kind of procedure or oversight or every murderer can just claim mind control and walk. I mean referencing Jessica Jones, Hope Shlottman was going to stand trial for what she did while she was being controlled, so why shouldn't Bucky?

[Dandesun]

That's true, but if you really like Cap as a character, you know honest and sincere he is, and through him, I'm connected to Bucky's story on a more personal level.  Although,  the Peggy/Steve relationship resonates with me a lot and my heart breaks for them as well.  Damn....it just occurred to me that Steve is a really sad character, isn't he?  It's amazing he's doing so well in present day.

 

That's what it comes down to with me... Steve matters to me and the things that matter most to him matter a great deal. And it's not just lip service, either. Peggy in current MCU terms is quite old and is suffering from dementia but Steve is as devoted to her as he was when he met her as a skinny nothing of a guy. And Bucky... the first part of First Avenger established their relationship. Bucky cared about Steve, knew that he felt he had something to prove and that's why he kept trying to enlist despite all of his health issues. Steve already has thrown everything aside to rescue Bucky. He did that in First Avenger when he went off to find him against orders... and even when he found all the other prisoners he kept looking for Bucky.

 

Bucky agreed to become a Howling Commando not because Steve was suddenly Captain America but because he was the skinny twerp too stupid to run away from a fight. Basically, Bucky followed Steve because he admired him.

 

In Winter Soldier we got '...but I knew him...' and 'even when I had nothing, I had Bucky.' At this point, in a lot of ways, Bucky and Steve really only have each other. They're the only ones who knew each other before the war rather than what they became after. That's something that appeals to me.

 

Well, Team Iron Man won in the comic book story, ushering in an era of oppression for superheroes in the Marvel universe. Of course, Tony himself didn't win, because he lost his best friend, the respect of much of the superhero community, and ultimately lost his position as Director of SHIELD.

 

I doubt the movie will go the same way, unless the next installments are planned as much darker movies.

 

Yeah, I think the editorial staff at Marvel greatly misjudged the response of the audience when they wrote Civil War and then spent some time afterwards trying to atone in various ways. Thor returning and kicking the ever-loving shit out of Tony without even trying was one such thing while Tony was putting out major douche rays the whole time... until Thor took the full brunt of Tony's weaponry and didn't even bat an eye. Tony getting a convenient mental reboot was another. (Having cut my comic teeth on the X-Men, the very thought of 'registration' set me thoroughly against Tony's side of things.)

 

The thing is, I can see where Tony is making a shift... his Scarlet Witch mind-fuck resulted in him creating Ultron against the advice of the one person he told and flat out lying by omission to the rest. Steve, meanwhile, has been trying his damndest to play along with the world as it is and it's basically rotting from the inside all along. The SHIELD that came to the rescue in Ultron... was that even SHIELD? Or was it Nick bringing people together off the books to support the team? Steve may have said that it's 'what SHIELD is supposed to be' but did that necessarily make them official in any capacity?

 

What it all results in is this: Tony's motivations are often fueled by good intentions but they are always colored by who he is... imminently and deeply flawed. That's fine, it's what makes Tony interesting. Steve is the best of the best and I'm inclined to trust him because there is something incorruptible about him... while the world around him is and always has been very corruptible. I wouldn't trust anyone BUT Steve to be, technically, above the law because Steve is going to do the right thing. That's just the way he is.

 

Also, as much as Tony pays lip service to Steve being 'the boss' -- I think there's still something in him that resents Steve and also thinks he's a boy scout joke. Tony is always going to chafe under Steve's righteousness... we've seen that all along. And I don't blame him for that. Steve is unique. It makes me wonder at what point Tony might realize that facing Cap under battle situations isn't the same as calling him out for 'language' or seeing the best in people or what ever. (I don't actually think Steve sees the best in people... he's got too much of his life dealing with bullies and assholes to think there's always good in someone.) The thing is, Steve is going to be fighting for Bucky's soul here... and that's where I call on his side. 

 

I continue to wonder if this will end up with a 'It wasn't worth it...' scene.

[KatWay]

 

Well, Team Iron Man won in the comic book story, ushering in an era of oppression for superheroes in the Marvel universe. Of course, Tony himself didn't win, because he lost his best friend, the respect of much of the superhero community, and ultimately lost his position as Director of SHIELD.

Yeah, no. That's why I said they didn't win. They won the battle but since that whole arc ended up being about how wrong and terrible registration was and how noble Cap and his side had to fight against evil oppression from Team Ironman, I would say it's pretty clear who really "won" there. And I'm sure they'll go in that same direction in the movies. Ironman will be humbled and apologising before Steve's everlasting moral superiority and they'll call it a day. Or they actually pull the heroic martyr conclusion from the comics, which would make the same point.

 

This whole conflict feels a) unearned and b) there's the feeling of nothing actually being at stake cause we all know who is "right" before the movie even starts. Steve in the comics was a fundamentally good person and noble but he could be wrong about things, he was judgmental and stubborn sometimes. Steve in the MCU is basically flawless so there's really no question of "who is right?", it's only "will Ironman realise he's wrong before something truly terrible happens?".

 

And yes, I totally think this will end with a "it wasn't worth it" scene and I hate it already.

[Raja]

 

 

Yeah, I think the editorial staff at Marvel greatly misjudged the response of the audience when they wrote Civil War and then spent some time afterwards trying to atone in various ways. Thor returning and kicking the ever-loving shit out of Tony without even trying was one such thing while Tony was putting out major douche rays the whole time... until Thor took the full brunt of Tony's weaponry and didn't even bat an eye. Tony getting a convenient mental reboot was another. (Having cut my comic teeth on the X-Men, the very thought of 'registration' set me thoroughly against Tony's side of things.)

 

The thing is, I can see where Tony is making a shift... his Scarlet Witch mind-fuck resulted in him creating Ultron against the advice of the one person he told and flat out lying by omission to the rest. Steve, meanwhile, has been trying his damndest to play along with the world as it is and it's basically rotting from the inside all along. The SHIELD that came to the rescue in Ultron... was that even SHIELD? Or was it Nick bringing people together off the books to support the team? Steve may have said that it's 'what SHIELD is supposed to be' but did that necessarily make them official in any capacity?

 

What it all results in is this: Tony's motivations are often fueled by good intentions but they are always colored by who he is... imminently and deeply flawed. That's fine, it's what makes Tony interesting. Steve is the best of the best and I'm inclined to trust him because there is something incorruptible about him... while the world around him is and always has been very corruptible. I wouldn't trust anyone BUT Steve to be, technically, above the law because Steve is going to do the right thing. That's just the way he is.

 

 

SHIELD is fully vigilante at this point, those who still work for it do have contacts with the normal police and military worldwide. Some places like the United States have stopped hunting down SHIELD assets which includes at least one fleet aircraft carrier and fighter quinjets spread around the world. I guess they no longer fear that the SHIELD vigilantes have been co-opted by the Hydra moles inside of it. Meanwhile Maria Hill works for Stark and now presumably the Avengers she gives support to Coulson's "official" SHIELD while they were also hunting Hydra down in the beginning of The Age of Ultron. So I guess the helicarrier at Sekovia and other ex SHIELD assets as seen in Ant-Man are now part of the Avengers publically known support team while the others are part of a secret spy corp.

[Danny Franks]

Yeah, no. That's why I said they didn't win. They won the battle but since that whole arc ended up being about how wrong and terrible registration was and how noble Cap and his side had to fight against evil oppression from Team Ironman, I would say it's pretty clear who really "won" there. And I'm sure they'll go in that same direction in the movies. Ironman will be humbled and apologising before Steve's everlasting moral superiority and they'll call it a day. Or they actually pull the heroic martyr conclusion from the comics, which would make the same point.

 

You can say one side won, from a moral perspective, but when your figurehead is dead and you're hiding underground to avoid being arrested, you can't exactly wave flags and celebrate. Iron Man won, but Marvel just told the story from the losers' point of view.

 

And nothing was ever really resolved, because that status quo continued until Secret Invasion, where Tony was replaced by Norman Osborn, to begin Dark Reign. It was just crossover after crossover, Event after Event. All they did was remove Tony and replace him with an obvious villain. The movie won't take that same route, I'm sure, because they won't let any of their heroes be villains for more than half the film. In the end, they'll team up to take down a common foe, who will be Zemo.

 

It is kind of interesting, after watching all of Jessica Jones on Netflix and seeing how they dealt with the effects of mind control, I think I am on Tony's side. While I don't think that Bucky should do life in prison for his crimes, if he killed someone under mind control are people just supposed to take his, or Cap, word for it and let him disappear without any kind of actual investigation or trial? A key thing to remember is that we the audience know a lot more about what happened to Bucky than what people in the MCU did. He killed Tony's parents, so what evidence does Tony have that it actually was mind control and not something he did under his own free will? In a world where this kind of thing can be common there has to be some kind of procedure or oversight or every murderer can just claim mind control and walk. I mean referencing Jessica Jones, Hope Shlottman was going to stand trial for what she did while she was being controlled, so why shouldn't Bucky?

 

 

That was actually a significant storyline in the comic books, after Bucky was known to be alive again. He was put on trial but found not guilty, by reason of brainwashing (guess the Marvel comics denizens are more used to this sort of thing), but then taken by the Russians to answer charges they brought against him, which Bucky didn't contest. Natasha rescued him from a Russian prison, and told him not to be such a noble, guilt-ridden asshole in future.

[Bruinsfan]

Thor returning and kicking the ever-loving shit out of Tony without even trying was one such thing while Tony was putting out major douche rays the whole time... until Thor took the full brunt of Tony's weaponry and didn't even bat an eye.

As joyously entertaining as that issue was, the pedant in me was slightly annoyed that Thor told Tony the only difference between that and their previous fights was that he was no longer holding back, and then it was revealed after the fact that he was supercharged with the Odinpower at the time. (I think the fight would have played out basically the same regardless; after all, standard issue Thor can go toe-to-toe with the Hulk without a conclusive winner and whip up hurricane intensity storms in the blink of an eye, but he probably would have at least felt Iron Man's weaponry.)

[lion10]

Let's give Movie Sharon a chance. She's already earned some points for saving the computer guy who stood up to Rumlow in Winter Soldier. Not to mention the fact that when she was assigned to protect Steve, she didn't do the tired trope of seducing him/posing as his girlfriend to get close to him...which is probably the only reason why she turned down his coffee offer. So she's got some integrity.

 

I really like the actress and how she played Emily Thorne in Revenge.  

 

A closer look at the Sokovian Accords.

[Dandesun]

Hi Wakanda!

[Kel Varnsen]

That was actually a significant storyline in the comic books, after Bucky was known to be alive again. He was put on trial but found not guilty, by reason of brainwashing (guess the Marvel comics denizens are more used to this sort of thing), but then taken by the Russians to answer charges they brought against him, which Bucky didn't contest. Natasha rescued him from a Russian prison, and told him not to be such a noble, guilt-ridden asshole in future.

See something along those lines would interest me. The whole idea that once a super hero steps over the line how does society deal with it, and who sets that line? Especially if it is a hero that law enforcement can't really stop. Framing it with Tony trying to bring Bucky in for the murder of Tony's parents would be an interesting way to do it (even if it was just standing trial and assisting in bringing in anyone responsible for the brainwashing). But the whole idea of enhanced people registering, sounds all kind of stupid. Especially since you would think that existing laws could handle any super hero doing hero stuff if governments didn't want them to do it.

 

And you are absolutely right that in the comics universe claiming mind control is probably a much more legitimate legal defense than what it is in the MCU.

[stealinghome]

See something along those lines would interest me. The whole idea that once a super hero steps over the line how does society deal with it, and who sets that line? Especially if it is a hero that law enforcement can't really stop.

I don't disagree, but trying that storyline out on someone who was legitimately brainwashed is imo a copout. I'd rather the MCU put someone actually in control of their own actions on trial.

[tennisgurl]

I am really interested in the fact that the MCU, as a whole, seems to be really interested in the affects and implications of mind control and brainwashing in general. I mean, the issues with Bucky is obvious, as well as Jessica Jones, who spent most of its first season dealing with all the horrible realities of a person who can force people to do whatever they want them to. But there was also Loki and his magic mind control septer thing (The Avengers actually took some time out of its plot to examine how awful it feels to be mind controlled), and mind control and brainwashing were major threads over in Agent Carter. 

 

I will be really interested if any of these other incidents of mind control come up at all in the movie, or is any sort of legal president is actually set. I just find it really fascinating that this keeps coming up so often. 

[Demented Daisy]

Framing it with Tony trying to bring Bucky in for the murder of Tony's parents would be an interesting way to do it (even if it was just standing trial and assisting in bringing in anyone responsible for the brainwashing). 

 

Wouldn't that be a bit hypocritical of him?  I mean, he's teammates with two people who have killed how many people while being "brainwashed"?  Why shouldn't Bucky be given the same consideration Tony's given Natasha and Clint?

 

Unless I misunderstood, in which case, disregard.  :-)

[lion10]

Wouldn't that be a bit hypocritical of him? I mean, he's teammates with two people who have killed how many people while being "brainwashed"? Why shouldn't Bucky be given the same consideration Tony's given Natasha and Clint?

Unless I misunderstood, in which case, disregard. :-)

What was Clint doing before he joined SHIELD? Was he a mercenary like Natasha (or is it Natalia)?

[Demented Daisy]

What was Clint doing before he joined SHIELD? Was he a mercenary like Natasha (or is it Natalia)?

 

In the MCU, I don't remember them explicitly stating what Hawkeye did, though we do know that he worked with Black Widow.  I doubt we'll ever find out what happened in Budapest, for example.

 

However, we do know that people died when Clint was under Loki's influence.

[Dandesun]

What was Clint doing before he joined SHIELD? Was he a mercenary like Natasha (or is it Natalia)?

 

Clint was killing people all over the place while under Loki's mind control. When he started coming to, he asked Natasha how many he killed and she shut him down and told him not to think that way.

 

When Steve came to get her, Clint said he could fly the quinjet and Steve accepted Natasha's head nod as a voucher that Clint was trustworthy again.

 

Also, Dr. Selvig was controlled by Loki the same way and reacted to it all afterwards by taking a lot of medication and getting naked at Stonehenge. It was only after the situation with the Convergence that he realized that the 'world was crazier' than he was and accepted things. Mind control is all over the place in the MCU.

[AimingforYoko]

Clint was killing people all over the place while under Loki's mind control. When he started coming to, he asked Natasha how many he killed and she shut him down and told him not to think that way.

I think lion10 was referring to his days pre-Avengers.

[wlk68]

I think lion10 was referring to his days pre-Avengers.

Pre-Avengers Clint probably killed people for SHIELD, the occasional petty dictator, heads of slavery rings, drug cartels and the like. If you have the world's greatest marksman on your payroll, you'd be stupid not make proper use of him.  

[Kel Varnsen]

Wouldn't that be a bit hypocritical of him?  I mean, he's teammates with two people who have killed how many people while being "brainwashed"?  Why shouldn't Bucky be given the same consideration Tony's given Natasha and Clint?

 

Unless I misunderstood, in which case, disregard.  :-)

If you mean Clint while he was under control of Loki then I think it is different because Tony knows with pretty good certainty that he was being controlled, and once the control was gone Clint actually made an effort to stop Loki. With Bucky, no one in the MCU knows for sure that he was under control (the viewers do which is different). How does Tony know for sure that the guy was brainwashed and not just rescued by Hydra and made a really sweet offer for a bitchin robot arm and extended lifespan in exchange for killing a bunch of people. Since Bucky basically disappeared after The Winter Soldier, no one really knows his side of the story. And if Steve wants to let him continue to be gone and now have to answer for his crimes (not necessarily be punished, just answer for them)

 

Hi Wakanda!

Interesting that at the bottom of that document, one of the countries that ratified the document is Britain. So does that mean that Northern Ireland is part of the Republic of Ireland in the MCU and the United Kingdom is not a country, or did one of the prop designers just fail geography?

 then I think Tony has a legitimate gripe. 

[stealinghome]

With Bucky, no one in the MCU knows for sure that he was under control (the viewers do which is different). How does Tony know for sure that the guy was brainwashed and not just rescued by Hydra and made a really sweet offer for a bitchin robot arm and extended lifespan in exchange for killing a bunch of people. Since Bucky basically disappeared after The Winter Soldier, no one really knows his side of the story.

Given that they seemed to be on a real crusade to find all of HYDRA's bases and whatnot in AoU, it's hard for me to believe the Avengers wouldn't have found evidence about mind control/brainwashing/etc stuff in general in the HYDRA files, even if not pertaining to Bucky in particular. Plus, given that mind control is all over the place in the MCU, and that Bucky is Steve's lifelong best friend, and that Bucky almost surely will have mental/emotional/psychological trauma that a psychologist could diagnose from a hundred paces...still not feeling Tony on this one. He has no real "evidence" that Natasha or Clint or Selvig were brainwashed, either.