Gender On Television: It's Like Feminism Never Happened

[Luckylyn]

1 hour ago, Anduin said:

You all know how Joss Whedon is a total feminist, right? I shouldn't have to tell you what a total feminist he is, because we all know that. He'll happily tell you himself how much of a feminist he is. But here's a stunning article about how badly he short-changed the three lead women on Angel, killed them all off in almost the same way. Via childbirth. Isn't that surprising from such a total feminist?

I found this article via a tweet from Charisma Carpenter.

I’ve always been upset at how Whendon screwed over Carpenter and Cordy’s story arch just became he was pissed Carpenter got pregnant in real life.  The contrast between how Cordy was written pre season 4 and then after is striking.  He sabotaged her and then killed her off. 

[Anduin]

15 minutes ago, Luckylyn said:

I’ve always been upset at how Whendon screwed over Carpenter and Cordy’s story arch just became he was pissed Carpenter got pregnant in real life.  The contrast between how Cordy was written pre season 4 and then after is striking.  He sabotaged her and then killed her off. 

Yeah. The thing that surprised me was the pattern. Yeah, I felt that Charisma got a raw deal and Cordy died badly, but I never connected it with Darla and Fred. How many times will Whedon get called out before his feminist card gets permanently revoked?

I won't do it. Not only am I a man, I have very little voice and no real reach. We need a famous and outspoken woman to do it.

[slf]

A few other things that really piss me off about that situation: Carpenter wrote on her parenting blog about how she suffered a few miscarriages before having her son and upon finding out she was pregnant and that it was far enough along it was probably going to come to term, instead of being happy for her Whedon got mad and killed her character. In CHILDBIRTH. And didn't have the balls to tell her himself that she wasn't being brought back for season five (season four left that possibility open), she found out when she got a call from Variety. 

[Anduin]

1 hour ago, slf said:

A few other things that really piss me off about that situation: Carpenter wrote on her parenting blog about how she suffered a few miscarriages before having her son and upon finding out she was pregnant and that it was far enough along it was probably going to come to term, instead of being happy for her Whedon got mad and killed her character. In CHILDBIRTH. And didn't have the balls to tell her himself that she wasn't being brought back for season five (season four left that possibility open), she found out when she got a call from Variety. 

What the flying fuck? I never heard about that. Whedon really is a complete piece of shit.

[Wiendish Fitch]

3 hours ago, Anduin said:

What the flying fuck? I never heard about that. Whedon really is a complete piece of shit.

I know it's not right, but I always appreciate a new reason to hate that overrated "feminist" Joss Whedon. Seriously, instead of, oh, I don't know, temporarily writing Charisma Carpenter out of the show for a while, or hiding her pregnancy behind sofa or plants, or at least letting Cordelia die with heroism and dignity, what does Mr. I'm-the-Greatest-Feminist-Ever opt to do? He literally assassinates poor Cordy in the ugliest, most sexist way, and he made it feel as personal as he possibly could, just to rub it in Carpenter's face.

Hey, Whedon? You bald, fat, nihilistic, mumbly jackass, I hope you never again know the touch of another human being, let alone a woman. 

P.S.

I never cared for Darla, couldn't stand Fred, but even I agree that way they were killed off was a million shades of mean-spirited and fucked up.

[Annber03]

5 hours ago, slf said:

A few other things that really piss me off about that situation: Carpenter wrote on her parenting blog about how she suffered a few miscarriages before having her son and upon finding out she was pregnant and that it was far enough along it was probably going to come to term, instead of being happy for her Whedon got mad and killed her character. In CHILDBIRTH. And didn't have the balls to tell her himself that she wasn't being brought back for season five (season four left that possibility open), she found out when she got a call from Variety. 

Damn. That's really shitty.

I've never seen "Buffy" or "Angel", or followed Whedon's work in general, and stories like this don't exactly entice me to want to change that. 

[Lugal]

Whedon's feminism always seemed like one of those things that people keep repeating until everyone believes it.  I was never into the Cult of Whedon (caught an ep or two of Buffy, it was OK, never saw Angel) but I did like Firefly, but I will admit the show's cancellation may have saved us by preserving the show (14 good episodes) in amber, before Whedon could fuck it up.  Re: Inara's syringe, not only did we dodge that bullet, but it also betrays Whedon's fundamental misunderstanding of so very many things.

[tennisgurl]

6 minutes ago, Lugal said:

Re: Inara's syringe, not only did we dodge that bullet, but it also betrays Whedon's fundamental misunderstanding of so very many things.

Yeah when I read about what Joss was all excited to do to poor Inara, I was actually glad that the show was cancelled before he could ruin it. I have enjoyed a number of Whedons projects (Firefly is still one of my favorite shows ever) but I have been increasingly disillusioned by him and his supposed "feminist" cred over the years. That article really nailed a lot of my issues with him, especially how he tends to write many of his female characters as having specifically coded "female" problems, like death by pregnancy, sexual assault, etc. and it just gets really old really fast. 

I agree that what they did to Cordelia was terrible, especially knowing all the bullshit that Charisma Carpenter had to deal with behind the scenes because Joss is a pretty asshole, but Freds death was pretty damn insulting too, and I never even liked Fred that much! After everything she went through, how does Fred, the one main female character on the show at that point, have to die? Inhaling demon dust and dying in bed, while all the men run around trying to save poor helpless Fred, so that the guys can all angst about her and how they all failed her and how good and wholesome she was, and its such a crappy lame way for a longtime character to die, especially, as I said, the last female main character on the show, at that point. So she got damselled, and then Fridged? I didnt even care for Fred very much and I even I felt like she deserved better. 

And thats not getting into the misogyny demon episode, which insults men, women, and the audience in general.

[scrb]

Who did Joss bed?

Sad to hear these actresses succumbed to the casting couch.

[Kel Varnsen]

On 3/25/2019 at 2:26 PM, Danny Franks said:

Also, Becky Lynch will be the first non-North American to main event since Andre the Giant did, in 1987.

That's interesting and I was curious so I looked it up. It is true in real life because Yokozuna wasn't actually from Japan and Rowdy Roddy Piper wasn't from Scotland. And I guess because Ultimate Warrior wasn't actually from Parts Unknown.

[Anduin]

1 hour ago, scrb said:

Who did Joss bed?

Sad to hear these actresses succumbed to the casting couch.

IIRC, no names were ever revealed.

[Jack Shaftoe]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

I agree that what they did to Cordelia was terrible, especially knowing all the bullshit that Charisma Carpenter had to deal with behind the scenes because Joss is a pretty asshole, but Freds death was pretty damn insulting too, and I never even liked Fred that much! After everything she went through, how does Fred, the one main female character on the show at that point, have to die? Inhaling demon dust and dying in bed, while all the men run around trying to save poor helpless Fred, so that the guys can all angst about her and how they all failed her and how good and wholesome she was, and its such a crappy lame way for a longtime character to die, especially, as I said, the last female main character on the show, at that point. So she got damselled, and then Fridged? I didnt even care for Fred very much and I even I felt like she deserved better.

But they replaced Fred with Illyria who could punch really hard! That's the very definition of empowered female character, right? Who needs smart women without superpowers? Certainly not Whedon who marginalized or killed all main characters who didn't have superpowers in both Angel and Buffy and dumbed down both Willow and Buffy to a ridiculous extent in the final two seasons.

I agree with most of the article but I still don't see how Cordelia being possessed makes it worse than Willow "going dark" all on her own. As a Willow fan I'd rather she had been possessed, to be honest. Her crimes were quickly swept under the carpet anyway. And honestly, I thought "Jasmine did everything" was just Jasmine lying and in fact there was no long term plan but maybe that's wishful thinking on my part.

[Glendenning]

I hate Marge Simpson. She tricks her veggie daughter into eating meat, forces her family to  return to Christianity and forcibly makes her children attend Sunday School when neither wants to do so and the third can't consent,

She's not a Jimmy Carter Democrat, she's a Pat Robertson Republican.

[SmithW6079]

On 10/8/2019 at 10:01 AM, Glendenning said:

I hate Marge Simpson... forcibly makes her children attend Sunday School when neither wants to do so and the third can't consent,

Exactly -- because they are children, not legal of-age adults, and it's a parent's responsibility to make decisions for their minor children. Bart doesn't want to go to school either -- is she a bad parent for sending her son to school? 

[Glendenning]

Forcing your religious or political views onto your children is wrong. Especially Marge's actions -tricking/forcing her daughter to eat meat, forcing her family  to adhere to Christianity, wanting everyone to believe the same fifties values stuff that she does... She also forces her husband to go to church -  and he is a grown adult with full rights.

[Spartan Girl]

10 hours ago, Glendenning said:

Forcing your religious or political views onto your children is wrong. Especially Marge's actions -tricking/forcing her daughter to eat meat, forcing her family  to adhere to Christianity, wanting everyone to believe the same fifties values stuff that she does... She also forces her husband to go to church -  and he is a grown adult with full rights.

A million times this.

Lisa may be a child, but she's still smart enough to make her own decisions.  And Homer might not be a great dad, but he loves Lisa enough to let her be herself.  Marge tries to manipulate her to her own liking because she can't bear the thought of Lisa *gasp* never marrying and having kids.

The thing I hate about Marge lately is that she will always play the victim to even the smallest transgression Homer makes, even when it's committed out of simple ignorance.  And yet when even when she does something wrong -- posing as a drag queen for popularity, stealing Lisa's college money to fund her pathetic coaster business, throwing a tantrum over Homer's innocent friendship with a female neighbor -- she'll STILL play the victim and turn it around so that it's somehow Homer's fault, and everyone coddles her for it.

If that's The Simpson's idea of feminism, I want nothing to do with it.  Oh, and voting for Jimmy Carter ONCE doesn't mean you're liberal.

Edited October 10, 2019 by Spartan Girl

[Glendenning]

@Spartan Girl I hate Marge being held up by the writers as "just a conservative Democrat". She causes great harm to her children and husband through her obsession with Fifties values and extreme Christianity.

I would fear for Maggie as well. If she dares to not be a "dresses, dolls and perfume" girly-girl, Marge will try to manipulate and punish and coerce her just as she does with the others.

[Spartan Girl]

So the El Camino Netflix movie got me rewatching Breaking Bad and revisiting all the vitriol poor Skyler unjustifiably got from the toxic male fandom. First she was hated because she was an "unsupportive wife", nagging Walt about keeping secrets and mundane things while he was living his secret life, and then she was hated for being a  "hypocrite" and getting involved in the drug business with him. Never mind that she was left with little few options since Walt thwarted her divorce attempts and insisted on her taking the money for the family no matter what.

But you know why I think guys really hated? Because she was BETTER at it than Walt. She knew that she had to be smart and come up with good cover stories and a believable knew business to launder the money so no one would get suspicious. That got in the way of the Heisenberg male fantasy of just kicking ass and buying flashy things. And had it not been for Walt and his fragile little ego drunkenly blabbing to Hsnk that Heisenberg was still out there, they actually might have gotten away with it.

Yes, Skyler was flawed, but unlike Walt, she owned her shit. And everything she did really WAS about protecting her family.

[Drogo]

The site has a No Politics rule. Follow it. 

[Luckylyn]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

So the El Camino Netflix movie got me rewatching Breaking Bad and revisiting all the vitriol poor Skyler unjustifiably got from the toxic male fandom. First she was hated because she was an "unsupportive wife", nagging Walt about keeping secrets and mundane things while he was living his secret life, and then she was hated for being a  "hypocrite" and getting involved in the drug business with him. Never mind that she was left with little few options since Walt thwarted her divorce attempts and insisted on her taking the money for the family no matter what.

But you know why I think guys really hated? Because she was BETTER at it than Walt. She knew that she had to be smart and come up with good cover stories and a believable knew business to launder the money so no one would get suspicious. That got in the way of the Heisenberg male fantasy of just kicking ass and buying flashy things. And had it not been for Walt and his fragile little ego drunkenly blabbing to Hsnk that Heisenberg was still out there, they actually might have gotten away with it.

Yes, Skyler was flawed, but unlike Walt, she owned her shit. And everything she did really WAS about protecting her family.

Loved your post.  It made me think of this video analysis of Skyler and how the fandom trashed her.

https://youtu.be/N-YtnuYKdqc

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, Luckylyn said:

Loved your post.  It made me think of this video analysis of Skyler and how the fandom trashed her.

https://youtu.be/N-YtnuYKdqc

The Take's video about Skyler was perfect.  I just rewatched it the other day, which motivated me to make this post.

But what I think these nasty viewers neglected to remember in the midst of all their bashing Skyler in the first two seasons was that in the beginning, Skyler loved Walt.  Who wouldn't be upset when finding out that their husband is 1) terminally ill, 2) hid that diagnosis from her, and 3) decided without consulting his family that he didn't want treatment?!  But once Walt acquiesced, she was right there beside him at chemo, doing her best to be supportive despite everything else going on.  It should have been understandable that she'd start to get frustrated at the lying, the disappearing, etc etc.   

And for all the crap Skyler got about being the "nagging wife" that "henpecked" Walt, Skyler doesn't really fit that trope.  Usually that trope has the character dissatisfied with her life and marriage and feeling like she married beneath her.  Skyler was never like that.  She was fine with the lives the way they were, it was Walt who was unhappy and always acted entitled to want more out of their lives.  

[shireenbamfatheon]

The discourse surrounding Skyler and the hate she gets reminds me of how much hate Sally from Barry gets despite being the least terrible character on that show. Yeah, she's selfish and self-involved and a little bit narsissistic at times, but she's an angel compared to the mass murderers and gangsters on that show, all of whom are even more self-absorbed. That includes the titular character who gets so much sympathy from the audience because he's awkward and vulnerable. Meanwhile, Sally's branded the biggest monster on the show because she's a self-involved wannabe actor, just like Barry.

Sally is a wonderful character in that she's unlikable half the time but is still a fleshed out, three-dimensional character with relateable strengths and vulnerabilities and an arc + development independent of her love interest, the main character.

But it seems sympathy for morally grey characters is only afforded when they're male.

[Glendenning]

On the other hand, people who think the world would be better with women in charge, clearly don't remember the schools full of entitled sociopaths from their schooldays. LOL at the idea that marginalized groups can never be Jacks, Ralphs and Piggys (Lord of the Flies) just because they are marginalized.

[bmoore4026]

On 10/10/2019 at 12:27 AM, Glendenning said:

Forcing your religious or political views onto your children is wrong. Especially Marge's actions -tricking/forcing her daughter to eat meat, forcing her family  to adhere to Christianity, wanting everyone to believe the same fifties values stuff that she does... She also forces her husband to go to church -  and he is a grown adult with full rights.

Let's not forget the whole country club episode where Marge bent over backwards to impress a bunch of women who would never have given her the time of day had she'd not gone to school with one of the members.  I mean, she pawns her wedding ring  in order to buy an evening dress that must have cost hundreds of dollars when she learns she could be accepted into the group and forces her family to walk up hill to the mansion in near pitch darkness and yelling at them, including Maggie, to not be themselves.  It takes Homer to say something seemingly out of character to bring her to her senses. 

I don't hate Marge, but she isn't in my top five.  I'm tied with Lisa and Homer for number one.  Also, what right has Marge to complain.  There are several women on The Simpsons that have it worse off than her.  Edna Krabapple was desperately lonely for much of her life and when she finally found some happiness, she died soon after.  Agnes Skinner is a lonely old lady with Seymour as her only comfort, even though she can be quite verbally abusive to him.  Milhouse's mother was in an unhappy marriage until she was able to walk away from it (for quite a while).  Marge's next door neighbor Ruth is a single working mother with an ex-husband that stiffed her on alimony payments.  

And I almost forgot Marge's sister Selma, who only wanted to be loved all her life and finally got some of it after adopting a baby.  Yes, Marge, you  have some willful kids (one of whom is a crack shot) and married a buffoon and that buffoon became more of a jerk after season 10.  But he's made enough from his adventures to keep the family secure.  It's one thing to be a stay at home mom, but it's another to be a nag about it. 

Then again, Marge was never good at working outside the home, was she?  She has hobbies, though, right?  She was an amateur painter, wasn't she?

Edited October 23, 2019 by bmoore4026

[bmoore4026]

The whole thing with Buffy and cartoons has got me thinking - what are people's thoughts here about Sailor Moon?  Not just the characters, but the two animated series themselves.

[Glendenning]

My brother was a big fan of the 1990s American dub of Sailor Moon in our teens. Dubbing is for ordinary viewers. Subtitles are for intellectuals and geeks.

[kathyk2]

Has anyone noticed that there are more widowers than widows on tv? Four characters on new shows are widowers to no widows. If an actress wants to leave her role she usually gets killed off and it becomes all about her spouse. I think this is why women writers are so important.

[izabella]

I haven't noticed more widowers, but it could just be the shows I watch.  A Million Little Things features widow Delilah,  This is Us features widow Rebecca, Grey's Anatomy has widow Meredith, Amelia and Teddy, Chicago Med has widow Natalie, and Durrels in Corfu has Louisa,.  Those aren't new shows this season, though.

[supposebly]

1 hour ago, kathyk2 said:

Has anyone noticed that there are more widowers than widows on tv?

I don't think it's just TV, every male character with a fridged wife to give him motivation and character. Of some sort.

Widowers are sexier than widows. They need rescue, brood and that makes them interesting somehow. Widows just wear hats with a veil, and are old, sad, and possibly fat.

Unless they are widows who kill their husbands. They are allowed to be sexy widows.

[paulvdb]

10 hours ago, kathyk2 said:

Has anyone noticed that there are more widowers than widows on tv? Four characters on new shows are widowers to no widows. If an actress wants to leave her role she usually gets killed off and it becomes all about her spouse. I think this is why women writers are so important.

I guess I watch all of those new shows. The Unicorn (the main character), Nancy Drew (Nancy's father and the guy whose wife was killed in the pilot) and Batwoman (Kate's father). And on older shows that are still airing there's The Conners (Dan) and God Friended Me (Arthur). And on Legacies Alaric's fiance was killed during their wedding. So I guess that makes him technically not a widower.

Now I am trying to think of widows. The grandmother on Fresh Off The Boat comes to mind. And Marjorie on Mom. Meemaw on Young Sheldon. So it seems that the ones I can think of are older women while several of the widowers are younger men.

[Bastet]

This is from a month ago, but I just read about it today.  Ava DuVernay's upcoming anthology series for OWN, Cherish the Day, has a production crew that’s over 50% women, including 18 female department heads. 

Quote

The series created by and executive produced by DuVernay has women that were hired across directing, writing, production design, camera, set design, casting, key craft service, costume, hair, makeup, editing, medical, set decoration, sound, grip, electric, transportation, accounting, locations and stunts, along with serving as post-production supervisor, property master and script supervisor.

[Hiyo]

Quote

what are people's thoughts here about Sailor Moon?  Not just the characters, but the two animated series themselves.

I'd say within the confines of that particular genre of anime, it works well.

[Spartan Girl]

So I was thinking: do you think it's possible that Dawn was the most reviled character on Buffy because Joss wrote her that way on purpose, carefully hitting every annoying trope that audiences hate in teenage girl characters? Then he has the nerve to go, "Oh you guys are too hard on her, blah blah blah..." Yet another way he gaslit his way into "feminism."

And it really grinds my gears how everyone hated Dawn for this but Xander remained beloved by almost everyone even though he was TWICE as bratty as Dawn ever was. Dawn at least grew up by the series end while Xander was the same asshole he ever was. Oh but of course, TV boys will be TV boys while TV teen girls are just awful and should just go away...

Fuck you, Joss Whedon.

Edited January 1, 2020 by Spartan Girl

[Wiendish Fitch]

49 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

So I was thinking: do you think it's possible that Dawn was the most reviled character on Buffy because Joss wrote her that way on purpose, carefully hitting every annoying trope that audiences hate in teenage girl characters? Then he has the nerve to go, "Oh you guys are too hard on her, blah blah blah..." Yet another way he gaslit his way into "feminism."

And it really grinds my gears how everyone hated Dawn for this and that while Xander remained beloved by almost everyone even though he was TWICE as bratty as Dawn ever was. Dawn at least grew up by the series end while Xander was the same asshole he ever was. Oh but of course, TV boys will be TV boys while TV teen girls are just awful and should just go away...

Fuck you, Joss Whedon.

I personally still hate Dawn (though I also hate Xander), but your analysis of so-called "feminist" Joss Whedon is pretty on the money. I always hated his defense of how Dawn was just acting like a typical 15-year-old. Uh, no, Joss, she acted more like a typical 5-year-old. I'm not saying teenagers can't be whiny and awful, but Dawn took it to such a degree that Nellie Olson or Veruca Salt would have told her to dial it back.

[Spartan Girl]

50 minutes ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

I personally still hate Dawn (though I also hate Xander), but your analysis of so-called "feminist" Joss Whedon is pretty on the money. I always hated his defense of how Dawn was just acting like a typical 15-year-old. Uh, no, Joss, she acted more like a typical 5-year-old. I'm not saying teenagers can't be whiny and awful, but Dawn took it to such a degree that Nellie Olson or Veruca Salt would have told her to dial it back.

And that's why I'm 100 sure Joss did that on purpose, because that's how he sees "typical 15-year-old girls." 

And for all of Dawn's many, many, many, many faults, even she acted more mature about Buffy having sex with Spike, while Xander threw a tantrum and acted all buttsore because he wasn't clued in on Buffy's personal business.

Edited January 1, 2020 by Spartan Girl
Spike not Xander

[Spartan Girl]

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I feel that Whedon did Michelle Trachtenberg a great disservice by writing Dawn as more immature than her actual age entailed. If you're going to write a bratty girl character, at least cast an actual child instead of a 14/15 year old who was clearly trying to break out in older roles. And the irony is that Dawn did have actual issues that should have made her sympathetic (finding out her life was fake, losing her mom, losing Buffy, Buffy pulling away after resurrection, etc), but Joss made her handle them in the most obnoxious ways possible because he clearly hates teenage girls.

Ironically, most of Michelle's younger characters were more together than Dawn: even Penny in Inspector freaking Gadget had more emotional maturity in 10 minutes of screentime than Dawn had in two seasons!

[Mabinogia]

5 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Dawn as more immature than her actual age entailed. If you're going to write a bratty girl character, at least cast an actual child instead of a 14/15 year old who was clearly trying to break out in older roles.

That's a good point. If Dawn here younger her bratty behaviour wouldn't have felt soo OTT. Michelle could have done much more than what she was given. Given her age, they should have given Dawn more of a rebellious teen vibe than a bratty 10 year old vibe. On the plus side, because I'm trying to be less negative, she had beautiful hair!

[kathyk2]

Dawn would have been fine if they hadn't made her Buffy's sister. Did they think the audience would forget when Buffy came to Sunnydale she was an only child? They could have made Dawn an orphan who the gang takes in and her character would have been accepted.

[Raja]

To be fair Dawn wasn't a real girl, she was created by the powers that be out of magic stuff. So how do you do that? I propose by how the Slayer and Scooby gang all with no close siblings would be closest to her would imagine what a little sister would be like to better infiltrate her into the existing society. Once there only then does her real socialization process begin.

[Spartan Girl]

If I may move on to another female adolescent character...

I've been watching the old Inspector Gadget cartoons lately. I know it's a but of a reach to note about gender/feminism in an 80s cartoon, but you cannot deny it was another example of "awesome smart girl does all the work while the mediocre man gets all the credit" show. Penny is without a doubt one of my favorite cartoon girls of all time. It always struck me that Gadget, caring uncle though he was, was always quick to ignore and dismiss her every time she tried to warn him about anything. If I had a dime for every time he said "Nonsense, Penny" followed by his own stupid rationale for whatever clear and obvious threat was staring at him right in the face, I'd be rich. And that annoyed me more than him just being an idiot. It was always the "I'm the adult so I automatically know better" mindset we saw all too often in A Series of Unfortunate Events. 

And this is the real gender issue both in shows and in real life today: it's not so much oppression as it is not being taken seriously. People belittle women by automatically assuming that they're wrong because they're too emotional, shrill, nagging, let their imaginations run away with them, and generally made to feel like crap every time we express an opinion, even if it's actual truth. Or am I overthinking this?

[Luckylyn]

9 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

If I may move on to another female adolescent character...

I've been watching the old Inspector Gadget cartoons lately. I know it's a but of a reach to note about gender/feminism in an 80s cartoon, but you cannot deny it was another example of "awesome smart girl does all the work while the mediocre man gets all the credit" show. Penny is without a doubt one of my favorite cartoon girls of all time. It always struck me that Gadget, caring uncle though he was, was always quick to ignore and dismiss her every time she tried to warn him about anything. If I had a dime for every time he said "Nonsense, Penny" followed by his own stupid rationale for whatever clear and obvious threat was staring at him right in the face, I'd be rich. And that annoyed me more than him just being an idiot. It was always the "I'm the adult so I automatically know better" mindset we saw all too often in A Series of Unfortunate Events. 

And this is the real gender issue both in shows and in real life today: it's not so much oppression as it is not being taken seriously. People belittle women by automatically assuming that they're wrong because they're too emotional, shrill, nagging, let their imaginations run away with them, and generally made to feel like crap every time we express an opinion, even if it's actual truth. Or am I overthinking this?

You aren’t overthinking.  Ruth Bader Ginsberg spoke about how she would say something in a meeting that got ignored but then a male colleague would say the same thing.  Then suddenly the group would take the idea seriously.  It’s something so many women have had to deal with that doesn’t get addressed enough.

[Wiendish Fitch]

4 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

If I may move on to another female adolescent character...

I've been watching the old Inspector Gadget cartoons lately. I know it's a but of a reach to note about gender/feminism in an 80s cartoon, but you cannot deny it was another example of "awesome smart girl does all the work while the mediocre man gets all the credit" show. Penny is without a doubt one of my favorite cartoon girls of all time. It always struck me that Gadget, caring uncle though he was, was always quick to ignore and dismiss her every time she tried to warn him about anything. If I had a dime for every time he said "Nonsense, Penny" followed by his own stupid rationale for whatever clear and obvious threat was staring at him right in the face, I'd be rich. And that annoyed me more than him just being an idiot. It was always the "I'm the adult so I automatically know better" mindset we saw all too often in A Series of Unfortunate Events. 

And this is the real gender issue both in shows and in real life today: it's not so much oppression as it is not being taken seriously. People belittle women by automatically assuming that they're wrong because they're too emotional, shrill, nagging, let their imaginations run away with them, and generally made to feel like crap every time we express an opinion, even if it's actual truth. Or am I overthinking this?

Hardly. I loved Inspector Gadget as a kid, but in retrospect, I now hate it because... well, the reasons you stated. Penny and Brain -a prepubescent girl and her damn dog!- were the real heroes, but who got the glory, praise, amazing abilities, and main protagonist status? Incompetent, bare-minimum doofus Gadget, a grown-ass man who had to rescued by his niece on a weekly basis and was too stupid to realize it.

That dynamic existed then in fiction, it still crops up now, and whenever they try to make it otherwise, the trolls awaken (Rey bashers, anyone?)

Lindy West (I highly recommend her latest book) has talked about how the female TV characters she grew with who dared to speak their minds or challenge sexist attitudes were framed as boring, humorless nags (Lisa Simpson, Jessie Spano, etc), and how it may have created her (and my, since we're the same age) generation's apathy and reluctance to get involved in social issues. The tide seems to be turning, but it took us way too long to get there.

Not that my generation didn't have genuinely positive TV role models to look up to. Case in point? Daria freakin' Morgendorffer: Biting, sardonic, brutally honest, anti-fashion, doesn't care that you don't care, and unabashedly herself. Heck, I think the legacy of Daria has been just as strong as (if not stronger than) Beavis and Butthead's.

 

[Spartan Girl]

 Daria was awesome and Beavis and Butthead were garbage.

1 hour ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Hardly. I loved Inspector Gadget as a kid, but in retrospect, I now hate it because... well, the reasons you stated. Penny and Brain -a prepubescent girl and her damn dog!- were the real heroes, but who got the glory, praise, amazing abilities, and main protagonist status? Incompetent, bare-minimum doofus Gadget, a grown-ass man who had to rescued by his niece on a weekly basis and was too stupid to realize it.

The dynamic wouldn't bothered me so much if Gadget didn't act like a condescending asshole every time Penny did try to warn him about something before she and Brain had to save him behind his back. He didn't know that owed his life and career to her, but the very least he could have done was LISTEN TO HER EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE. The PSA lessons they did at the end of every episode don't count.

And what killed me is how Penny didn't even care about all that, she only did what she did to keep her uncle and the world safe. But had she actually been allowed to express any resentment, let alone call him out on anything, you can bet she would have gotten the Lisa Simpson treatment from trolls, calling her a whiny little buzzkill who should just shut up and go to school.

[biakbiak]

8 hours ago, Raja said:

To be fair Dawn wasn't a real girl, she was created by the powers that be out of magic stuff. So how do you do that? I propose by how the Slayer and Scooby gang all with no close siblings would be closest to her would imagine what a little sister would be like to better infiltrate her into the existing society. Once there only then does her real socialization process begin.

Yeah I mean you can not like the storyline but her suddenly showing up was a main part of her story so they clearly didn’t think the audience would forget that she didn’t have one.

[Spartan Girl]

It never fails to piss me off how Family Matters did the double standard with Urkel and Myra.  Steve stalked Laura and sabotaged her dates, and yet he's supposed to be the underdog.  When Myra did it when Steve dumped her for Laura in the final season, and she's a crazy evil bitch.  How dare she try to mess things up for Steve when he finally has a shot with his dreamgirl?  Forget the fact that he did the exact same thing to Laura for years, continued to hit on her even when he was dating Myra, and obviously never gave a damn about Myra, he just wanted to break up with her in a way that didn't make him feel like an asshole...oh no, all that's doesn't matter because she's eeeeeee-viiiiillll.

SPARE ME.

The fact that Steve had the nerve to clutch at his nonexistent pearls when he found out is infuriating.

And the show tried to portray Steve as this big champion for women, which is laughable.  Hey, Urkel, "no means no" doesn't just apply to sex.  It also applies to when a girl doesn't want to go out with you and maintains that she'll never have feelings for you.  And it sure as shit doesn't mean you're free to keep asking her and pursuing her until you "wear her down."

Edited January 8, 2020 by Spartan Girl

[Wiendish Fitch]

Amazon Prime has a show called Zack Morris is Trash that explores what a horrible person Zack Morris from Saved by the Bell was. I certainly agree with the sentiment, no question... but can I also add that Screech was awful, too? 

Like Urkel to Laura, Screech constantly harassed and pursued poor Lisa for years. And years. And years. In fact, in the first season, it's established that he's been doing this since they were in first or second grade (they're high school freshmen at this point). There's even an episode in said first season where Lisa has a nightmare about Screech being everywhere she looks in her bedroom (where, in a truly awful special effect, his face is superimposed on her doll). 

Now, this is played for laughs, and maybe this is just me being a handwringing, liberal alarmist... but if someone harasses you regularly, to the point where you have honest-to-god nightmares about them not leaving you alone, something needs to be done! This should not have been played for comedy, this should have been a "very special episode" where Lisa confesses this to her parents or a trusted authority figure, Screech is called out and severely reprimanded for his stalker-ish behavior, threatened with punishment, he gets the hint, and he backs the hell off!

[Spartan Girl]

At least Screech and Lisa never ended up together.

[Wiendish Fitch]

12 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

At least Screech and Lisa never ended up together.

YES!!

If Saved by the Bell did one thing gloriously right, it's that Screech never "wore Lisa down"! They never became a couple! Thank you, SbtB writers, for taking your smart pills!

[Spartan Girl]

5 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

YES!!

If Saved by the Bell did one thing gloriously right, it's that Screech never "wore Lisa down"! They never became a couple! Thank you, SbtB writers, for taking your smart pills!

If only Family Matters had followed that example...

I also wish that at the very least Myra had called Steve out on his bullshit instead of having her take all her wrath on Laura, once again pitting two female characters against each other.

Then again, it was kind of justified, considering that Laura just up and changed her mind about Steve after years of insisting that she didn't want him to the point where she helped Myra hook up with him. From that POV I'd be mad too.

[kiddo82]

Not sure where else to post this but here goes.  I'm watching reruns of ER and there's a brief scene, 3 maybe 4 minutes, where two female staff members run into each other at a convenience store and make small talk while waiting for a food order.  It starts out as the kind of chit chat you have with a co-worker acquaintance ("When I was 15 I wanted to be an international spy") and ends up with each woman sharing a brief description of her past experience at a planned parenthood clinic.  One had an abortion, the other did not.  It's done without a bias towards either woman, without any dramatic flourishes, and without either actress playing to the cheap seats.  (Maybe unspoken looks of "what could have been" but nothing that would constitute the melodrama that scenes such as this usually lean on)  It's ultimately just a conversation between two people that is otherwise unremarkable.  This aired in 2004.  No social media.  No YouTube.  No streaming.  If you missed it, you missed it.  If you had something to say about it maybe you said so on the old TWoP boards (or any boards) but that's probably as far as it got.  I don't know that that happens if this airs today.  For as apolitical a moment as this was, first I could see twitter picking up on it, then the morning shows, and then the think pieces and op-eds would roll in.  In some ways we've regressed as everything has to be a statement one way or the other and nothing is allowed to just be.  All this scene was was a moment of solidarity between two women who learned they were each in similar situations at one point and went down different paths.  It's a really nice moment without trying too hard to be a really nice moment.  Although by this point ER wasn't nearly as popular as it was in its early days, it was still a major player on a big 4 network.  In spite of that, this blink and you'll miss it exchange has managed to breath in relative obscurity for over 15 years which weirdly makes me happy.

Edited January 17, 2020 by kiddo82