S05.E10: Mother's Mercy

[Constantinople]

So Sam is going to become a maester in time to help Jon to fight the White Walkers? What's he going to do, a 40 hours course?

 

Based on his self-study in the NW library, I'm sure Sam will ace his AP exams.  Between that and the credit he gets for lifetime experience, I imagine he'll enroll as a junior or thereabouts.

[Rahul]

That slut shaming scene would have been more potent if it weren't so obvious that they used a body double and CGI'ed Lena Headey's face on. It was even more conspicuous in the cellars of the Sept though, with the real Lena being shown from the neck up and then the body double when nudity was called for. I could totally tell it was someone else behind the wet, stringy hair before it was shorn off. Shame indeed, GoT! Shame, shame for such a badly rendered bait and switch.

 

In other news, I'm kind of loving Dany with dirt on her face. I love rooting for the underdog and it looks like its back to square one now that she's somewhere in the Dothraki Sea with a khalasar that would likely see her returned to Vaes Dothrak with the other former khaleesi widows.

[Alapaki]

Based on his self-study in the NW library, I'm sure Sam will ace his AP exams.  Between that and the credit he gets for lifetime experience, I imagine he'll enroll as a junior or thereabouts.

 

Frankly, if Sam can manage to make it to Oldtown, WHICH IS ON THE OTHER END OF THE FUCKING CONTINENT, by himself, I think they should just declare him a Maester and send him right back.

[BlackberryJam]

I haven't seen this mentioned here, but I really thought Trystane was in on the Fredo Kiss of Death plot to kill Myrcella. Myrcella was the one professing love, not him. He was douching it up like Justin Bieber. 

 

I realized I completely forgot Arya's plot. *yawn* I did feel like I was watching a bit of demon possession movie when she got all murdery. But otherwise, didn't care. Wait, I did love that Sexy Jesus can suicide and come back instantly. *waves at Jon Snow*

[Constantinople]

Based on his self-study in the NW library, I'm sure Sam will ace his AP exams.  Between that and the credit he gets for lifetime experience, I imagine he'll enroll as a junior or thereabouts.

 

 

Frankly, if Sam can manage to make it to Oldtown, WHICH IS ON THE OTHER END OF THE FUCKING CONTINENT, by himself, I think they should just declare him a Maester and send him right back.

 

 

At the very least, Sam should be required to give a few lectures

 

"Wilding" Identity as Social Construct: A Critical Re-examination of the Realms of Men

 

and

 

Legalism and Custom in Interpreting Oaths: Sex, Wives & Children

[Bass90]

Frankly, if Sam can manage to make it to Oldtown, WHICH IS ON THE OTHER END OF THE FUCKING CONTINENT, by himself, I think they should just declare him a Maester and send him right back.

Sam only needs littlefinger's teleportation device

Edited June 15, 2015 by Bass90

[GreyBunny]

I'm nervous about that eye-daggers look Jorah gave Daario right before their throne-room scene cut away.  (I like TV Daario even though I find the book version ridiculous.)  I have a feeling Jorah is going to try to kill him while they're on their little safari through the countryside. 

[Ambrosefolly]

- Could Dorne be any more pointless? I don't care for any of the new characters. Why kill Myrcella? More importantly why kill her so stupidly?

 

And the show got to use that fancy palace in Spain and everything. At this point D&D should have an "extra" with Alexander Siddig, Pedro Pascal & Keisha Castle-Hughes in a before the invite to the Purple Wedding, to salvage Dorne.

[dr pepper]

They could have avoided the whole "is he really dead or only a little bit dead" crap for the next 6 months and still had a nice cliff-hanger.  Trim out some of the wasted time on Dorne in this and previous episodes.  Have the stabbing occur earlier in this episode, then finish with Jon emerging alive from his funeral pyre a la Dany. 

 

That would go a couple of steps towards balancing the full frontal ratio.

[Avaleigh]

No WWs south of the wall. Yet.

Right, but the bodies are there and I'm assuming they're going to stay there until the Wall falls or the WW come through some other way.

[GreyBunny]

I keep thinking of logistics -- how could Mel resurrect Jon when the entire NW just killed him and will be back in a moment to burn his body? Why would they let her anywhere near his corpse? Even if she thinks now that he's the chosen one, how will she prevent the entire castle from burning his corpse right away? She'd have to use a ruse to secret it away somewhere...in the castle? How's she going to move it? The NW know now they have to burn bodies immediately -- Jon himself taught them that.

 

So many fans believe the R+L=J theory, but I have never completely accepted it or warmed to it, for one big reason -- I hate hate hate that it would mean Ned lied to his beloved wife, Catelyn, all of Jon's life, causing her to mistreat Jon and doubt her husband's faithfulness to her, all on a false assumption. It irrevocably affected Jon's childhood and his own marriage. If it's true, Ned should have let his own wife in on it. That has always been a huge sticking point for me.

 

True. I never really saw Thorne warming to Jon, not really. He always despised Jon. He kept his peace and went along playing his role as First Ranger, until the unrest and unhappiness in the ranks built to a head and made a move against Jon available to him.

 

Plus, for the NW, the stakes are more practical and immediate than an eventual White Walker invasion -- no doubt they worry that the new Wildlings will attack again with their greater numbers, kick them out of Castle Black, and eat all the food they've squirreled away for the long winter to come. Not at all unrealistic things to worry about.

 

How much supernatural specialness has been in the show, though? I don't recall much. Most (or all) of the Jon = warg stuff was removed.

 

I hope Jon stays dead. I want to see what happens next. A White Walker Jon would be very cool, though. But I can't see them not burning his body immediately.

 

YES. I hate the Sansa in the Vale stuff. I read the latest new chapter released by GRR, and just rolled my eyes. It sounded very romance-novel to me, and like it didn't even fit in the same universe.

 

Thorne will probably stuff Jon in an ice cell and leave him there.  Even if he turns into a wight he won't be going anywhere or doing anything.

 

Catelyn is a blabbermouth hothead.  It was only a matter of time before she let the secret slip out.  Also, I think Ned was playing the Snape gambit with her - if she suddenly began treating Jon nicely it would look suspicious.

 

They might not have used much supernatural specialness in the show but it's there in the source material and if GRRM told D&D that Jon is completely gone for good then he deserves a big Citadel link made of fool's gold for being a master troll.

Edited June 22, 2015 by GreyBunny

[Avaleigh]

I'm nervous about that eye-daggers look Jorah gave Daario right before their throne-room scene cut away.  (I like TV Daario even though I find the book version ridiculous.)  I have a feeling Jorah is going to try to kill him while they're on their little safari through the countryside. 

Jorah has probably already infected Daario with greyscale. 

 

I keep thinking of logistics -- how could Mel resurrect Jon when the entire NW just killed him and will be back in a moment to burn his body? Why would they let her anywhere near his corpse? Even if she thinks now that he's the chosen one, how will she prevent the entire castle from burning his corpse right away? She'd have to use a ruse to secret it away somewhere...in the castle? How's she going to move it? The NW know now they have to burn bodies immediately -- Jon himself taught them that.

 

 

I think burning Jon's body is going to be part of the ritual to bring Jon back so I don't think this should be a problem. 

[benteen]

From the Stannis thead:

Damn, I just realized that Ramsay isn't going to have any of those bodies burned...

 

I'm thinking about a line from Vikings, "the dead will conquer the city"

 

Tormund was prepared to lead the Hardhome expedition in the book.  So we might see him rise in prominence next season.  Hopefully they'll let him be more funny too.

 

BTW, let me echo that advice to Daario. I wouldn't turn my back on Jorah for a second while I'm on the road.  Not one second.

[Avaleigh]

I can see the stone man quality maybe taking Jorah over and then he attacks Daario but I can't see him just stabbing Daario in the back if he's still in his right mind. Maybe if Daario is trying to kill him because he finds out that Jorah infected him? I can see that being the outcome too. I can't decide if it was a mistake that they gave Jorah greyscale or not. 

 

I don't see how keeping Jon dead makes for a better story. All of the intriguing stuff about Rhaegar and Lyanna, the prophecies, his dragon--it all goes out of the window and seems like it was set up for no reason. 

 

Jon's death isn't a dealbreaker for me because I'm interested in seeing what happens to other characters but it would be enormously disappointing and just wouldn't make any sense based on everything that they've been setting up. 

 

Jon's story was my favorite part of ADWD. I don't believe for a second that they're going to throw away a character with such potential. 

[Maximum Taco]

So Sam is going to become a maester in time to help Jon to fight the White Walkers? What's he going to do, a 40 hours course?

 

There's no real time limit to forging a maester's chain, you don't need to study for a preset amount of time, you just need to be able to pass the Archmaester's test to forge the link. So if someone has a high knowledge base they could forge their chain very quickly. You need to also account that Sam has spent years learning under Maester Aemon as well.

 

I imagine Sam could possibly earn links in Ravenry (Black Iron), History (Copper), and Economics (Gold) on arrival, or shortly after. He might also have a decent knowledge base in the principles of Warcraft (Iron), because despite his not being an accomplished warrior, a base in history could provide a good knowledge of tactics. And I imagine researching the White Walkers would provide him with a good base to earn his link in Magic and the Occult (Valyrian Steel)

 

Those two links, Warcraft and Magic, would be two that Sam would focus his learning around too, because they would be most helpful in fighting the White Walkers. Smithing (Pale Steel) would also be a good one for Sam to pick up, just to gain a bit of knowledge about the mysteries of Valyrian Steel.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Pete Martell]

And the show got to use that fancy palace in Spain and everything. At this point D&D should have an "extra" with Alexander Siddig, Pedro Pascal & Keisha Castle-Hughes in a before the invite to the Purple Wedding, to salvage Dorne.

 

They're more likely to have a raunchy deleted scene where Tyene lowers her trousers, tells Bronn she's going to show him her Rains of Castamere, and rolls around on a bed with Lollys while Bronn leers in the background (fully clothed of course) and occasionally smacks their bottoms.

 

I mostly feel sorry for the Keisha Castle-Hughes fans who were so unhappy with her Walking Dead role and kept bigging this up (pre-season) as something to prove her talent. 

 

That role wasn't exactly Shakespeare, but it was a hell of a lot better than this.

 

I wasn't much of an Oberyn fan, but it's hard to believe he's even from the same story or setting as anyone we saw this season.

 

They should use these scenes to teach showrunners that quality of casting is not going to make your writing stink any less. They could choose quite a few scenes this season for that lesson, actually.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Pete Martell

[coops]

This episode was overloaded with grim and gore... it felt depressing to watch.

I don't know what to think about Jon Snow. After all Cat was supposed to return as Lady Stoneheart in the books but it never happened so even if GRRM is planning to bring back Jon the show might not.

Cersei's walk of shame was difficult to watch which means it was filmed well but in the books she is proud right up to about half way through the walk and thats when we have the massive game changer and she finally breaks down. Tv Cersei is not as evil or as cold hearted as book Cersei, who's reaction to being shorn is pretty much a shoulder shrug and quip of 'do what you will.' Seeing Cersei break down on the show just doesnt have the same impact because tv Cersei hasn't been the unbreakably proud character book Cersei is. In the book I was shocked to feel so sorry for a bitch who only loves power, its not such a shock to feel sorry for show Cersei who is a mother who loves her kids. Plus her haircut looked great on her and that kind of spoiled the effect.

[Ambrosefolly]

So many fans believe the R+L=J theory, but I have never completely accepted it or warmed to it, for one big reason -- I hate hate hate that it would mean Ned lied to his beloved wife, Catelyn, all of Jon's life, causing her to mistreat Jon and doubt her husband's faithfulness to her, all on a false assumption. It irrevocably affected Jon's childhood and his own marriage. If it's true, Ned should have let his own wife in on it. That has always been a huge sticking point for me.

Thorne will probably stuff Jon in an ice cell and leave him there.  Even if he turns into a wight he won't be going anywhere or doing anything.

 

 

Catelyn is a blabbermouth hothead.  It was only a matter of time before she let the secret slip out.  Also, I think Ned was playing the Snape gambit with her - if she suddenly began treating Jon nicely it would look suspicious.

 

They might not have used much supernatural specialness in the show but it's there in the source material and if GRRM told D&D that Jon is completely gone for good then he deserves a big Citadel link for being a master troll.

I agree. As much as he loved Catelyn, it would rise flags if she treated him like her true born children, which she would have since she would have no reason to be jealous and Jon being an orphan. No way for years could she sustain mistreating him. Seeing as Ned was aware of Varys, he might be aware of the birds he had and would go straight to Robert. If R+L=J was the truth, I think Ned was serious about telling Jon when he got back, but seeing Robert's unabated Targaryen hatred over two kids that had nothing to do with Lyanna's demise, he probably figured Robert would march an army to have his Jon's head.

 

And if Jon was Ned's bastard, why not tell Catelyn everything? I think part of Catelyn hatred is she knew absolutely nothing about how Jon came to be. Ned shot down the only possible candidate for Jon's mother that she could think off and he remained tight lipped about it until his dying day. Ned was not a known womanizer like Robert. Maybe the truth would have helped, including his feeling have marrying his brother's intended and them barely knowing each other.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Ambrosefolly

[ViewerPDX]

I was glad Arya got her revenge, but being blind may be a very high price.

 

 

 This is the book thread, isn't it?  She gets her sight back.

[areca]

I feel bad that so many Unsullied seem to think that Theon and Sansa chose to commit suicide together. I can see how that would feel like a bit of a blow. 

 

When so much of your audience watches an episode, the finale nonetheless, and has no idea what actually happened, it marks a huge and utter failure.  There was SO MUCH FAIL in this finale.  This season was pretty crappy overall for that.  All the elegance and cohesiveness of the first two was just gone.

Edited June 16, 2015 by areca

[Bass90]

 

Lol, at least something good came out of that line

[Pogojoco]

The Winterfell bits with Ramsey's super army were a miss and illustrates again how invested D&D are in Ramsey. In the book, the Bolton contingent has been snow bound and with the Frey Pie and the murderer that keeps leaving corpses around, they have some serious cabin fever. It's part of what makes those Theon chapters in ADWD so successful and plays off the long tradition of horror movies in the snow (The Shining, Let the Right One In, Ravenous) 

 

They might still beat Stannis (as the Pink Letter claims) but it definitely feels up in the air. Ramsey most definitely isn't the super commander that just obliterates all armies in his path. And is he that great hand to hand? He's not that big and didn't have the benefit of training since childhood like Jon (also not that big.) 

[ViewerPDX]

Lena's head was CGI'd onto her body double's nude body.

 

 

Yeah, as a guy who appreciates the body of a woman, I have to admit my eyes weren't on her head.  Um ...

Edited June 16, 2015 by ViewerPDX

[benteen]

I agree. As much as he loved Catelyn, it would rise flags if she treated him like her true born children, which she would have since she would have no reason to be jealous and Jon being an orphan. No way for years could she sustain mistreating him. Seeing as Ned was aware of Varys, he might be aware of the birds he had and would go straight to Robert. If R+L=J was the truth, I think Ned was serious about telling Jon when he got back, but seeing Robert's unabated Targaryen hatred over two kids that had nothing to do with Lyanna's demise, he probably figured Robert would march an army to have his Jon's head.

 

And if Jon was Ned's bastard, why not tell Catelyn everything? I think part of Catelyn hatred is she knew absolutely nothing about how Jon came to be. Ned shot down the only possible candidate for Jon's mother that she could think off and he remained tight lipped about it until his dying day. Ned was a known womanizer like Rober. Maybe the truth would have helped, including his feeling have marrying his brother's intended and them barely knowing each other.

 

Not knowing I think hurt her although I understood why Ned kept it a secret initially.  It's mentioned in the book that Ned having an affair didn't bother her because he had been fighting in a war and didn't know if he would be coming back.  She thinks something to the effect that she wouldn't have cared if he had a dozen bastards but bringing one home was why she was so angry.

[LilySilver]

A lot of things about this episode irritated/annoyed/angered me, but one small thing stood out:

 

Brienne had one job. She had ONE JOB!!! She was supposed to wait for the candle in the Broken Tower. But D&D set it up so that she broke her vigil mere seconds before the candle appeared.

 

What the hell? As a storytelling device, that is so cheap and stupid. As soon as I saw Brienne glance at the tower, I knew that moments after she turned away the candle would appear. I knew that because I've watched lots of bad TV.

 

Presumably D&D have watched lots of TV too (both good and bad) and I'm astounded they went for that device.

Agreed. All I could think was that it would have been so much more complex to have the candle flicker into flame just as Brienne learned of Stannis' presence, thus requiring her to choose and revealing so much about her character, priorities, and motivations.

 

Just as it would have been so much more complex, imo, to have Thorne suspicious or even aware of the mutiny at hand, but not directly involved--showing perhaps some conflict in his face while he ultimately chose not to intervene. I wanted him to be more complicated than he was so that we could fully appreciate how serious and alarming John Snow's decisions would have been to men of the night's watch.  Which would allow the viewers to more fully appreciate both John's courage, his likely naivete, and his ultimate prescience.  Hum.

 

The walk was well done but WAY too long. And the haircutting scene---did we really have time to waste in this eppy?!

 

I would have preferred a minor nod to Sansa's strength as well, if Theon's final lines had been hers, or if she had grabbed his hand and led him to the parapet. Would have made a world of difference to me. I did find myself feeling unexpectedly proud of Theon, though in general I find him irredeemable and deserving of his fate.  I do appreciate the complexity his character is given in competing loyalties, daddy issues, etc.

 

I had to restart HBOgo mid episode and it just happened to restart seconds before Myranda's "fall".  I wouldn't have chosen to view it twice, but have to admit I enjoyed it just as much the second time.

 

WHY would Sansa drop that corkscrew?! (ETA, "Auger", correct. jfc. ctfd. "Item that might be used as a weapon and is marginally better than nothing" was my point. I know the difference between an auger and a corkscrew, and know that it makes absolutely no difference in this context.  Breathe, berry.)  Ugh.  Not that it would likely make an effective weapon, but better than nothing. For that matter, why not pick up an arrow or two whilst hustling by barrels full of them?  I just want her to be a little smarter, tougher.

 

ETA: *IF* Stannis is alive, it's because Brienne wants to punish his accomplice in Renly's murder and will carry him to the wall where his king's blood might be of use...Maybe.  Not sure I care anymore whether Jon Snow is dead, DEAD dead, or if L + R = J.  

 

Did we get the ridiculous prison scene with Bronn just so he'd know about the antidote and save Myrcella?  God, when Ellaria kissed her full on the lips I was running for a wet wipe to hand through the screen. But no one in Dorne though anything of it?! Really lame.

Edited June 16, 2015 by LilySilver

[BlackberryJam]

Corkscrews don't sit around outside in the snow. Augers, used for boring wood, and probably repairing railings, do. It is a tool for boring holes in wood.

[Shanna Marie]

In the book, the Bolton contingent has been snow bound and with the Frey Pie and the murderer that keeps leaving corpses around, they have some serious cabin fever. It's part of what makes those Theon chapters in ADWD so successful and plays off the long tradition of horror movies in the snow (The Shining, Let the Right One In, Ravenous)

That was what I really missed in the show. That whole storyline was so atmospheric and tense, but since it was bad guys dying, it brought some hope. I was looking forward to seeing it filmed because I think they could have done a lot with it in the series -- the deep snow, the Winterfell that wasn't entirely rebuilt after the burning, the close quarters among the wedding guests stuck there, and people dying one by one. Instead we got Ramsay Stu winning quick and easy battles and somehow having a massive army even though there only seemed to be about ten people in Winterfell.

 

I also really missed Jaime's book storyline because it was a great redemption story as we saw him realizing just how screwy everything really was. I don't feel like he got any character development at all in Dorne. He was changed after his stint in the Riverlands, but I don't think he's changed at all after Dorne.

[Dev F]

WHY would Sansa drop that corkscrew?!  Ugh.  Not that it would likely make an effective weapon, but better than nothing. For that matter, why not pick up an arrow or two whilst hustling by barrels full of them?  I just want her to be a little smarter, tougher.

 

Well, it might stop the Boltons from murdering a bunch of people because they think she had help escaping.

[Umbelina]

In the books, aren't Qyburn's tortures instrumental in getting confessions from more of her alleged lovers? He's a stone cold sadist serial killer in the books and beholden to no one, least of all Cersei. In fact, people she hates are sent to him in the guise of being sent for healing.

Just like the Sparrows, he's a force she has unleashed that will turn on her. He created that gollum that will be surely be part of her downfall.

When he so kindly took her away, I thought, oh no! Not him!

Yes, he is disgusting, cruel, and horrible.  No wonder Cersei likes him so much.  That final scene was all wrong, either the acting, the editing, or the script was a real miss there.  It should have made our blood run cold, instead I see a lot of "so glad someone was kind to poor Cersei!"  I mean really, the HELL?  Also, I still say that both the body double looking like she did Pilates daily, the bad CGI with her head, and missing so many nuances in the book about her scheming and lying and pretending repentance, and her pride at the beginning of the walk just lessened the impact. 

 

I really don't see Cersie's walk as "slut shaming" or for once, even simply added to titillate viewers.  She was QUEEN!  A queen who cheated on her husband THE KING, which was considered treason and usually punished by death in the closest "real world" clone, and even GRRM references England and it's long ago wars.  In that world, she would have been beheaded.  Her naked walk had nothing to do with "slut shaming" it was to appear naked before God, and repentant, with no secrets.  Men do that walk as well.  She got off easy.  Someone asked if the guards held back the crowds in the books as well.  Yes they did.  I wish they had more of a perspective from the "small folk" and their reasons for being so damn angry at her, and they had many.  I wish they had conveyed that Royalty back then got a lot of the respect/fear simply from their elegant apparel.  They failed at that too. 

 

I felt no pity for Cersie with her great 2015 body, and her cute little pixie cut hair, with chocolate pudding being thrown at her to represent shit, and it took me out of the scene.  I wish they had shaved her head as happened in the books (hell put a bad bald cap on her) and I wish they had somehow shown that she was ashamed because her ass/thighs and stomach were flabby and sagging. 

 

The scene was OK, but it was so long, you'd think they would have managed to get some of the nuance in!  The only place they succeeded in that (for me) was her looking up at the castle and seeing how far away it was.  I mean, couldn't they have added part of the climb at least, why was it all so level, and the streets looked far more walkable barefoot as well. 

 

Not knowing I think hurt her although I understood why Ned kept it a secret initially.  It's mentioned in the book that Ned having an affair didn't bother her because he had been fighting in a war and didn't know if he would be coming back.  She thinks something to the effect that she wouldn't have cared if he had a dozen bastards but bringing one home was why she was so angry.

I am so glad we didn't get Lady Stoneheart!  I couldn't stand Catelyn in the books, and I was glad to see the last of her.  We got it the first time, she was Lady Stoneheart long before her death. 

 

Show Catelyn was also as idiotic as her husband, but the actress killed it with what she had to work with, so I'm speaking mostly about book Catelyn here.

 

I don't think Catelyn could have kept the secret, let alone not give it away with her actions.  Ned did the right thing there, if indeed that is all true, and at least he didn't break his promise.  I don't respect much about Ned, but I did like that he keeps promises.

 

----

Couldn't the show had bothered to show how very deep the snow was, so that unsullied viewers would not think Sansa just committed suicide, or did they WANT people to think Sansa and Theon were dead as well?

Edited June 16, 2015 by Umbelina

[Pogojoco]

I must say, my fav bit of the episode was Myranda taking a header over the balcony and the five second beat of Sansa and Theon leaning over and staring at her corpse. 

[jeansheridan]

Interesting episode, great thread!  (Lots of great quips in here, though "Septa Ratchet" may be my favorite)

 

One thing I noticed that pinged my Bookwalker radar was the throne room scene with Tyrion, Jorah, and Daario. When I saw how they were positioned when Tyrion questioned their fitness to be consorts to Daenerys, I was reminded of "The Dragon has Three Heads" and the speculation on who the three dragon rider-consorts will be.  Seems like visually it could have been a tease about it (whether it comes to pass, no clue).

 

I was pleasantly surprised by the filming work done for Cersei's Walk of Shame; I had been dreading how badly it could have gone with the slobbering anticipation by some fans to see Lena Headey naked (good job on the body double, and entirely understandable - funny how medieval our society is regarding woman actors and their bodies still...).  It's not perfect by any means, but I felt that they made an effort to carry emotional weight and focus on Cersei's state of mind and her journey, making it something that services her character development (rather than just titillating viewers). There are so many times on this show (and others) where bad things are done to women but the viewer gets no access to what they are thinking and feeling (see: Sansa and Ramsay), resulting in them being merely objectified in service of other ends. Here, by focusing so much on Lena's face, you get to see what she is going through, and I could almost hear her internal monologue; her bleeding feet afterwards was good too to show how much determination it took to get through that. 

 

I don't remember from the book whether Sparrows were as adamant about protecting her by knocking back rabble (I admit that I raced through that overly long section to get it over with), but I liked that touch because it kept the Walk ritualized within the religion of the Seven rather than just a free-for-all to abuse Cersei.  It was still really hard to watch, but it should be uncomfortable if it gives us good insight into the religion, the people, and Cersei's journey (done better here than in the book, imo).  I also got the feeling that Cersei may not be as done as I thought after reading the book; as problematic a character as she is, I wouldn't mind seeing a transformation in her towards some greater strength (probably just before she bites it, knowing these guys).

 

re: Brienne and Stannis: I see it as plausible reasoning that Brienne can choose to spare Stannis' life and use him to fulfill her oath to protect Sansa; there often is a clause that if you legally could have killed someone, you can compel them to your service instead.  As far as I'm concerned, you ain't dead on this show until your head rolls off or your throat is slit, so I'm headcanoning that she redirected her swing into the tree by his head for now.

You and I are watching the same show! Well put. In the books she had Kings Guard too. That's why Kevan allowed it. Not that they did much good protecting her.

[Avaleigh]

Yes, he is disgusting, cruel, and horrible.  No wonder Cersei likes him so much.  That final scene was all wrong, either the acting, the editing, or the script was a real miss there.  It should have made our blood run cold, instead I see a lot of "so glad someone was kind to poor Cersei!"  I mean really, the HELL?  Also, I still say that both the body double looking like she did Pilates daily, the bad CGI with her head, and missing so many nuances in the book about her scheming and lying and pretending repentance, and her pride at the beginning of the walk just lessened the impact.  

I thought it was supposed to make our blood run cold. Cersei is basically one of Qyburn's pet projects now. IMO we just witnessed a monstrous demon being born. She was washed, shorn, cleansed, purified, whatever--then she begins the walk and it's like she's collecting the filth and sins of the world as she goes to her destination. As she continues to essentially be born again she's picking up cruelty, vice, and a lot of the underbelly of humanity. When she finally slithers through the mess that is King's Landing she's wrapped up and taken into the protective arms of a disgusting monster who is giving her an instrument to refine her cruelty. He looks after her like the nanny looks after Damien in The Omen. 

 

I don't know, I thought the show did a pretty good job of how chilling and unsettling it was. When Qyburn is the mother hen of King's Landing you know the world of ASOIAF is a pretty fucked up place. 

[Umbelina]

I was just skimming the unsullied thread, and while some doubt Jon's death (because Mel arrived) and some doubt Stannis' death (because it wasn't on screen) quite a few think that Drogon was dying, not napping, and that Sansa and Theon just committed suicide.

 

That's just a bad script, or editing, because, the hell?  Couldn't they have shown or referred to how very deep the snow was at least? 

 

Imagine being one of the unsullied who not only thinks Jon and Stannis just died, but also Drogon, Myrcella, Sansa, and Theon!  Would you continue watching?  Oh, and throw in that little Arya is not only a cold blooded killer, but now also blind!  Ha.

 

Avaleigh, do you really think the unsullied got ANY of that about Cersie and Qyburn though?

Edited June 16, 2015 by Umbelina

[CrashTextDummie]

I like that the show is underplaying Qyburn's monstrosity. I really like the actor in the role. In the books, it's clear that only a fool would align with him (adding to Cersei's mounting idiocy) whereas in the show there are only hints to how dangerous he is. I thought Cersei's final scene definitely had a disturbing subtext.

 

As a book reader, I don't mind if the unsullied don't get that. They will get it soon enough I assume.

 

As for Drogon dying/napping: I thought it couldn't have been more clear. The scene was played for laughs. Why would Dany go for a stroll if one of her babies was dying? You can't spoonfeed everything to the audience.

Edited June 16, 2015 by CrashTextDummie

[Umbelina]

But that is kind of saying that they show doesn't stand alone, that you must read the books to understand the story they are portraying.  ?

[thegreathoo]

Im unsullied.  

 

Stannis was betrayed to death, betrayed by the troops, by Melisandre, and by himself.  He is done, he's got nothing.  He is dead.

 

Jon is dead too.  He may become undead in some form.   Multiple stab wounds, bleeding in the snow, done, dead.  

 

Drogon looked like he was dying.  No food.  It does not look good.

 

Theon and Sansa, looked like they jumped on high sloping pile of snow.  I don't see why they would die but they may get hurt a little.

 

Myrcella did not die but looked to be dying, does not look good, high chance she is dead.

 

I did not pick up on Qyburn Cercei at all.  To me she walked back in to the castle at KL and I, for the life of me, could not understand why they did not kill her right then and there.  No one likes her in the Castle!  I am hoping Pycell slips her some poison and does away with her.

Edited June 16, 2015 by thegreathoo

[FemmyV]

WHY would Sansa drop that corkscrew?! (ETA, "Auger", correct

Because Prince Humperdink Ramsey is going to need clues. First the clue how Sansa got out of her room, then he'll find Dog Girl's arrow embedded in the post, above where she fell, and conclude she was aiming at Sansa. Whether he'll use the info simply to go chasing after Sansa, or something worse, I dunno.

[CrashTextDummie]

 

Drogon looked like he was dying.  No food.  It does not look good.

 

 

No food for mommy perhaps. He was lying on a pile of carcasses for crying out loud. Clearly he was well fed and resting.

But that is kind of saying that they show doesn't stand alone, that you must read the books to understand the story they are portraying.  ?

I don't see it that way. I see it as viewers of the show still having things to discover about the character that book readers already know. Besides, it's already established that he dabbles in the occult and if I remember correctly he was introduced as a disgraced maester. It's not like there aren't hints for those paying attention.

[Miles]

I don't quite understand why so many people thin Stanis might still be alive. Cutting away in the last second from a violent death is standard practice, even on this show. Not always, but often enough.

And for those people saying it wasn't Briennes duty to kill him, it very much was. If she couldn't protect her king, it was her duty to bring justice to his killer.

Catelyn is a blabbermouth hothead.  It was only a matter of time before she let the secret slip out.  Also, I think Ned was playing the Snape gambit with her - if she suddenly began treating Jon nicely it would look suspicious.

It makes absolute sense why Ned didn't tell her in the books. As you say, that woman was a hot head and had 0 self-reflection skills. The Catelyn in the show however was pretty awesome, so it made less sense. But a lot of things make less sense on the show. Edited June 16, 2015 by Miles

[jeansheridan]

Quibyrn is much less menacing on the show. Only Jaime recognizes/acknowledges his creepiness. He notes it when they first meet and then comments on Cersei' s growing dependence on him. And since nobody likes the Mountain, who cares what happens to him?

I like his more kindly aspect. Much like the High Sparrow. Such good intentions they both have and the horror they inflict is awful.

Drogon seemed fine to me as well. Tired and sleepy after a meal. I am surprised how that scene was percieved.

I can see why some people saw Sansa and Theon making a suicide leap. That drop looked too high to survive.

[thegreathoo]

How did Dany's gang escape the arena?  I guess after she flew away the place cleared up, it was that kind of a show stopper!

[Macbeth]

All Jorah has to do to kill Daario is to lend him a hand.

[thegreathoo]

All Jorah has to do to kill Daario is to lend him a hand.

That would be a cool way to get Dany to die.  One nookie and it's all over.  Another way to shireen Dany is for Dothraki to burn her, reuniting her with Drogo.

[Umbelina]

I just posted an interview article in the media thread.  The answer the show-runner gives about Kit not being back is pretty telling.  I just realized I should probably go spoiler tag that, just in case!

Edited June 16, 2015 by Umbelina

[elzin]

To me, Jon survives in the books. I would have thought that that would be one thing that couldn't change, but maybe it is for whatever reason. 

 

This is the Game of Thrones, not ASOIAF. He's not going to be sitting on the throne in the end, so maybe he isn't important in the show for the end. Vital to being Ice and Fire, but not the Iron Throne.

 

And perhaps he truly isn't going to be back in S6, but who knows about S7? A little flashback showing how Mel and/or warging revived him.  

[Stardancer Supreme]

And speaking of Cold Hands, putting Benjen Stark in the "previously" segment at the start of the show was just mean.  I got so excited.  Then I figured it out. (And yes, yes, I know GRRM has said Cold Hands is not Benjen.  Sigh.)

 

Oh it was very mean. I took it as "Finally we get to see what happened to Benjen!", not using him to setup Jon to get stabbed.  That's all I really wanted to know after the mystery of Jon's parentage; what the hell happened to Benjen?

[Dewey Decimate]

I thought the body double was a good choice; the stomach may have been flat, but the breasts were those of an older woman who has given birth. The manicured crotch hair was kinda modern, though.

Ouchie. LH/not-LH's boobs looked vaguely self-familiar (sorry for the tmi), but I'm barely in my forties and have never had kids. If those were the breasts of a soon-to-be crone, well, society's expectations have really gotten fucked up with the prevalence of the rock-hard, stapled-on grapefruit tit.

 

I realized I completely forgot Arya's plot. *yawn* I did feel like I was watching a bit of demon possession movie when she got all murdery. But otherwise, didn't care. Wait, I did love that Sexy Jesus can suicide and come back instantly. *waves at Jon Snow*

HEE! That's the first time I've heard him called "Sexy Jesus." So wrong and yet so hilarious.

[Umbelina]

I don't know if it's the show (probably) but I didn't get too much of a real world issues described in fantasy from the books.

 

After this season, and especially for some reason, this episode, I really do. 

 

Global Warming being "Winter is Coming."

Which everyone ignores because of wars, religious zealots and disputes, and the desire for money (oil) and power or at the very least control over regions, especially those with valuable assets.

Jon dies while no one pays attention to the threats that are coming and instead diddles away over the conflicting religions and wars was just maybe too on the nose. 

[InsertWordHere]

Agreed. All I could think was that it would have been so much more complex to have the candle flicker into flame just as Brienne learned of Stannis' presence, thus requiring her to choose and revealing so much about her character, priorities, and motivations.

I was hoping that your exact scenario would play out (in fact, I posted a similar speculation in one of the earlier ep threads), and that Brienne would indeed choose to honor her oath to Catelyn instead of her vengeance oath. It would not only reveal the true nature of Brienne's character, but it would have been a nice callback to Jaime's "so many oaths" speech. I can't help but feel that most writers would see Brienne being forced to make this choice as the obvious way to go and that it fits better with the themes presented in both the books and the show. I would have been fine even if she indeed chose vengeance, as long as she was shown making some kind of choice. Another thing the show didn't focus on, probably because Stannis' defeat makes it irrelevant, is that if Stannis had won, Sansa would have been in a better situation. Brienne had a good chance of making things worse for Sansa by leaving to hunt down Stannis before she knew he would be defeated. 

 

Regarding the corkscrauger (and I understand what you're referring to whatever you call it, be it corkscrew or auger or simply that tool Sansa picked up, no worries), I too was annoyed when Sansa dropped it. The trouble is, while I can't decide if Book Sansa would have done the same, I am not surprised that Show Sansa did.

[Cthulhudrew]

I'm nervous about that eye-daggers look Jorah gave Daario right before their throne-room scene cut away.  (I like TV Daario even though I find the book version ridiculous.)  I have a feeling Jorah is going to try to kill him while they're on their little safari through the countryside. 

 

I just had this image flash in my head of their road film journey next year, and Jorah trying desperately to touch Daario to infect him, only to have silly obstacles get in his way:

 

Someone calls for Daario's attention and he turns away just as Jorah almost grabs him

 

Jorah reaches out towards Daario when they are in a tavern together, and the waiter slaps a tankard in Jorah's hand

 

Jorah sneaks up behind Daario, only to slip on a banana peel....

 

etc.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Cthulhudrew