S05.E10: Mother's Mercy

[Pete Martell]

As for Brianne missing the signal candle -- it's a good thing she did because what the hell was she supposed to do if she DID see it?  That was another plot that made no sense.  How on earth was Brianne supposed to do anything single-handed against an armed fortress like Winterfell?

 

[MrWhyt]

 Ramsey is victorious with hundreds of soldiers that apparently came out of his ass. 

 

The Boltons were one of the strongest houses in The North before Roose turned on the Starks, why wouldn't they have a large army?

[The Mighty Peanut]

The Boltons were one of the strongest houses in The North before Roose turned on the Starks, why wouldn't they have a large army?

But Ramsey said he only needed 20 good men. Apparently they were very good....at mass killing.

[ShannaB]

My thoughts -

I was upset about the betrayal of the Night Watch but I was not upset about Jon Snow dying.  Jon HAS to die to be released from his oath and Mel's return to Castle Black is just too convenient.  With the way Mel was looking at Jon, I think she knew he was special but she got the prophecy/visions wrong and Jon is the one of the prophecy. 

 

I also think that Stannis is still alive.  We didn't see Brienne actually kill him and I feel that Brienne couldn't just kill him especially after she saw how defeated he was in body and spirit.  I picture Jon riding to Winterfell and joining Brienne and Stannis to take on the Boltons.  If I remember correctly, Mel said she saw Stannis at Winterfell with his banner flying.  I think this will happen either out of respect for his death in that battle or Jon and Sansa leave Winterfell to Stannis because it is already a lost cause with the White Walkers coming.

 

I would just love to see Jon come back from his death with white blond hair **wink wink**.

 

I think we saw the birth of the newest horror to come and it will be Cersei.  We have seen her cruelty all along and her Walk of Shame will be paid for in terror and blood especially with her new pet FrankenMountain.  I actually fear for Jaime and Bronn now that Myrcella is dead. 

 

Yes, Dorne was boring and the Sand Snakes seemed like a total waste of time but their involvement with Myrcella's death was  probably needed to be seen because it will be the catalyst for a war.  So much turmoil to come when all these players have no idea of the true threat inching its way South..  It boggles my mind how all the pettiness, killing and scheming for power and revenge means absolutely nothing because Winter is about to whoop their collective asses.  The Iron Throne really has no meaning except to show all the foolish fighting.  I expect everyone will end up in Mereen at the end since "Winter' lasts for generations.  I picture Dany's vision of the Iron Throne with the cold and the snow coming true.

 

I have no idea what part Arya and Bran (and possibly Rickon) will play but I can only hope their roles will be good and interesting.  I thought Jon Snow was interesting and important to the whole story right from the first episode and more so after learning that he was a bastard without any knowledge of his mother, being subjected to  Catelyn's hate and then being banished to the Night's Watch.  The other two characters that have had hardships since birth, despite their respective stations in life, are Dany and Tyrion so I see the three as kindred spirits of sorts.

 

 If Jon is not resurrected, I just may be devastated so I won't consider any other options  dammit!!   Sam has to return to Jon with pertinent new (old) information as a Maester and we need to see more Wildfire, Valyrian Steel and Dragonglass.   I hope for (and crave) more info on the White Walkers.  This Season may have been slower but I am invested until the end so I am not going to complain when I am a bit bored and neither am I going to complain about all the brutality.  Life is brutal for so many today with the poverty and violence and brutality has existed throughout history.  I Think if GAME OF THRONES did everything off screen then we as an audience would be short changed in a way.  If I'm uncomfortable then I can cover my eyes or FF and I have been uncomfortable many times but I've cringed more watching HANNIBAL and BANSHEE.

 

The 10 month long wait begins again.  Gah!!

[BlackberryJam]

I haven't had time to read more than the first three pages but I have to jump in and say...

I FUCKING LOVED IT.

It was absolutely riveting television. I thought the action was wonderful and the pacing was perfect. I finally gave two shits about Sansa for once and I'm saying that's all because of her Winterfell storyline replacing her Adventures in Babysitting from the books. I liked Theon.

I thought the abandonment of Stannis was pitch perfect, from troops, to Selyse, to Melisandre. And then he kills two dudes before he accepts justice from Brienne.

Sour note for me was Dany because I was sure her dress was white last episode and then it looked blue. The dropping of the ring was so Hansel and Gretel-y.

Loved Varys and Tyrion. Love that Daario and Jorah are going on a roadtrip of "Don't touch me, I have greyscale!"

Did not like Myrcella at all so glad that's over with, although the dialogue was weak. Jaime's hot outfit is back. YES.

Davos was perfection.

The CGI of Cersei's head onto another body was weird, but I thought the Walk was perfect in that it just kept going to emphasize the awfulness. Fuck Qyburn though.

Loved Kevan's look of disgust. Loved alive Kevin.

Adored Jon and Sam's dudebro moment. Of course Olly is hateable, fuck that kid, but I thought the killing of Jon was perfect. I am now worried for Edd.

Edited June 15, 2015 by BlackberryJam

[MrWhyt]

But Ramsey said he only needed 20 good men. Apparently they were very good....at mass killing.

to sneak into Stannis's camp and burn their supplies and siege weapons.

[Unburninated]

They can't wait a whole season to resurrect Jon. Lady Stoneheart was resurrected after her body had rotted too much and that's part of why she's so horrifying and also brings the cray-cray. Plus, Jon's body would be burned ASAP. 

 

I was actually pretty happy with Sansa's "live free or die" decision. It was better than her last escape.

[Unknown poster]

But Ramsey said he only needed 20 good men. Apparently they were very good....at mass killing.

He had twenty men for the raid on Stannis' camp. The army that swept him from the field was likely the entire Bolton force.

[DigitalCount]

Okay, so I was under the impression (from an EW interview maybe?) that most of the Walk was LH, at least at the beginning and end, but most people here are saying it was almost all a double? Also, that was a long scene. I wish that they had taken one minute from that and given Jon the Pink Letter as a catalyst. Priorities, people...

[oliverwendell]

 

Yeah, the writers have given GRRM another nine months to move his ass and get the book done.  Although it takes about five months to edit a book (particularly one of this size) so he'll have to turn it in probably no sooner than October.

 

I do agree that that's why they wrote Jon's last scene to line up with the book's cliffhanger.  But what happens after Season 6?  GRRM will never have the next book done by Season 7.  The show is going to end up spoiling the books -- or going off on its own trajectory -- eventually anyway.

 

 

It made no frigging sense that Jon is treated like he's just bringing the Wildings over out of the goodness of his heart rather than the actual reason.....they can be turned into an army that could destroy everyone in their path.   They have Jon mention it to Sam but doesn't bother having a conversation with the rest of the NW.

 

Jon very clearly made this point when he told the NW why he was going to Hardhome.  He said if they didn't bring the Wildlings south of the wall, they would become soldiers in the undead army, and that would be much worse than dealing with them as human enemies.  Also there is no way the stabbers hadn't heard from the survivors of Hardhome what happened there.  All of which makes their mutiny completely senseless to me as it was presented in the show.  

[Raachel2008]

IF Jon Snow is not dead, you bet it is Kit Harrington playing him and not some other actor or actress.

[Advance35]

They had already done a story where Sansa learned to keep her feelings inside and bide her time. They claimed they were not doing that this season. The fact that people think they are just tells me again that this story got very lost along the way, and did her (and frankly, no one else, except for that woman who plays Myranda, who got 3 years employment from one of the most pointless roles ever on television) no favors.

 

Well I guess that depends on one's perspective.  I've seen A LOT of people posting about how exciting they've found the Winterfell storyline and how Sansa is interesting for the first time and etc.   Than they are book walkers who go "this derails the character, they are making her a victim, blah blah blah yakity smakity."   They probably broke a little more then even in terms of fan interest for the Sansa character which can be seen as a win.   Clearly some, one might even say a majority (on THIS board) didn't enjoy the storyline but I've seen many that did. Que Sera.

 

She deserved every second of it.  Plus, she only confessed to adultery & incest, so that's what she was punished

for.  Her fault, no one else's.

 

Agreed.  They've white-washed the character of her more heinous crimes but her indifference to the suffering of the common folk has remained present.   I don't think the smallfolk care what brought Cersei down, they just love the fact that she has been.    She's made a mission of making sure the common folk fear her and now that she's not scary anymore, they are prepared to pay her back for all their suffering plus interest.   Too many have suffered far worse for me to feel empathy for Cersei.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Advance35

[Philbert]

 

He had twenty men for the raid on Stannis' camp. The army that swept him from the field was likely the entire Bolton force.

 

While Stannis has been stuck in the snow, toiling towards Winterfell, Roose has been gathering every last man he could find. I would imagine Ramsey's little 'victory' at Stannis camp probably brought in a few fence sitters who figured it was time to sign up with "Team Bolton." I think that was Ramsey's point all along in hitting the camp...let everybody see that the Boltons are men of action and that they are going to win.

[proserpina65]

Ramsey is victorious with hundreds of soldiers that apparently came out of his ass.

 

Roose Bolton had plenty of men at Winterfell.  They weren't Ramsey's men - they were Bolton soldiers who had been part of Rob's army before the Red Wedding.

[proserpina65]

But Ramsey said he only needed 20 good men. Apparently they were very good....at mass killing.

That was for the raid on Stannis' camp, where they burned Stannis' siege engines and supplies and killed/stole/drove off some of the horses.  That wasn't for the actual battle.

[Haleth]

I was dreading Cersei's walk because it felt exploitative, but it was really well done.  There was nothing sexy about it in the least.  I almost felt sorry for her.

 

This will be unpopular, but I can't hate Thorne for stabbing Jon.  No, I dont' condone it.  Yes, it was an overreaction and short sighted, given the needs of the NW and the thousands of Wilding Friends of Jon hanging around.  And the NW men were certainly wrong in the way they handled the situation.  But Thorne and the others (Bowen Marsh in the book) truly felt that Jon had betrayed his NW vows and were justly removing him from command.  They would call it a brave and heroic move to protect the integrity of Night Watch.  It was not the murderers and rapists who carried it out, but the men who were truly dedicated to their vows.

[OakGoblinFly]

I understand that GRRM is deconstructing the epic genre and showing how brutal it really was --but fuck it all, there should be someone to root for...I think that if Jon Snow is truly killed off the series will lose a lot of viewers and readers, I mean what in the hell is the point?

 

 

Forget viewership, I just might give up on the books.

 

So, did Brienne really kill Stannis or was that just the fakeyest fake out of all times?  In my head, Pod saw Sansa's candle and ran to Brienne before she killed Stannis (and that's my story until the powers-that-be- tell me otherwise).

 

I did like how they handled Arya's unsanctioned hit and her going blind - though I could have done without the beating of the two other girls.

 

I've been leary of Sansa in Winterfell - but I did like how she and Theon helped each other to escape and her willingness to take a literal leap of faith off the Wintefell wall.

[benteen]

Agreed.  There was nothing sexy about that walk at all.  I will say though that I like Lena better with short hair as opposed to that wig she's been wearing for years.

Like I said earlier, one actor we know will be back next season is Julian Glover.  Pycelle has weasled his way to at least one more episode.

 

Avaleigh, I kept wondering what would happen to Davos now and you just reminded me that he'll likely be stuck in the ice cells.  That makes perfect sense.  It's close enough to his original ADWS story and it makes sense that the Night's Watch would likely lock Davos (and most likely Melisandre) up to offer them probably to the Boltons or the crown as a gesture of goodwill in the hopes of getting some resources in return.

[Pete Martell]

Well I guess that depends on one's perspective.  I've seen A LOT of people posting about how exciting they've found the Winterfell storyline and how Sansa is interesting for the first time and etc.   Than they are book walkers who go "this derails the character, they are making her a victim, blah blah blah yakity smakity."   They probably broke a little more then even in terms of fan interest for the Sansa character which can be seen as a win.   Clearly some, one might even say a majority (on THIS board) didn't enjoy the storylien but I've seen many that did. Que Sera.

 

it was far more than just this board, and it is far more than just book readers, but my reply wasn't about the quality of the storyline, it was the idea that people are criticizing Sansa for being passive. I was trying to point out that many of those who are unhappy with this storyline because of Sansa somehow acting like a victim, but because Bryan Cogman went to the press basically saying this story was some type of strength or empowerment for Sansa, and many of us did not see this alleged empowerment, unless calling someone a bastard = empowerment. If so then anyone who ever meets Jon Snow must be Superman at this point.

This will be unpopular, but I can't hate Thorne for stabbing Jon.  No, I dont' condone it.  Yes, it was an overreaction and short sighted, given the needs of the NW and the thousands of Wilding Friends of Jon hanging around.  And the NW men were certainly wrong in the way they handled the situation.  But Thorne and the others (Bowen Marsh in the book) truly felt that Jon had betrayed his NW vows and were justly removing him from command.  They would call it a brave and heroic move to protect the integrity of Night Watch.  It was not the murderers and rapists who carried it out, but the men who were truly dedicated to their vows.

 

I don't hate Thorne, because he's too thin a character to warrant that reaction, but I do think his reasons were plot-driven and had little weight. They also made sure to have little of him beyond the tired old role of nasty headteacher to Jon's pouty student, which makes him seem less like a man of integrity and more like Mr. Feeney in a very, very, very edgy episode of Boy Meet World.

[benteen]

As much as I hated seeing the Dothraki show up again so Dany could waste more precious time with them, I will say the visuals of the Dothraki hoarde were really, really impressive.

[Pete Martell]

Avaleigh, I kept wondering what would happen to Davos now and you just reminded me that he'll likely be stuck in the ice cells.  That makes perfect sense.  It's close enough to his original ADWS story and it makes sense that the Night's Watch would likely lock Davos (and most likely Melisandre) up to offer them probably to the Boltons or the crown as a gesture of goodwill in the hopes of getting some resources in return.

 

Considering the general intelligence level of most of the NW (especially this season), Melisandre may just have to open her robe every once in a while to get free room and board. 

 

I could see Davos just leaving, which is where he'd meet up with Sansa or Theon or whoever.

[loki567]

Considering the general intelligence level of most of the NW (especially this season), Melisandre may just have to open her robe every once in a while to get free room and board. 

 

I could see Davos just leaving, which is where he'd meet up with Sansa or Theon or whoever.

 

Goddamn it, you're giving them ideas. I think there's little to no chance that we don't see Melisandre pulling that with Thorne or some other NW next season. 

[mac123x]

Yeah, the writers have given GRRM another nine months to move his ass and get the book done.  Although it takes about five months to edit a book (particularly one of this size) so he'll have to turn it in probably no sooner than October.

 

Over in the Show vs Book thread, someone posted a comment from his editor stating that it'll take her about 2 weeks to edit it.  Which basically means she runs it through spell checker and reads it a couple of times but provides no meaningful feedback.  "George, you said 'words are wind' 274 times, can we cut a few of those?"  "NO".  "Okay, ready to publish! It's perfect! [please don't fire me]"

 

Option 24b(1) for avoiding this situation: postpone the FTW attack until season 6. 

 

1. Show-only watchers wouldn't notice something that wasn't included. 

2.  Book readers would speculate wildly that either Jon didn't die in the books or the producers were just saving it

3.  Completely avoids having Kit Harrington having to answer speculation for months, and gives him every reason to be on set when they're filming

4.  Gives them a nice shocking event for 6.02 or 6.02 (like Joffrey's death) that avoids a hidesouly slow start like the first 7 episodes this season.

 

 

 

The audience can get bleakness fatigue

 

TVTropes calls it Darkness Induced Audience Apathy.  I like your version better.  And GoT's entry has already been updated to reflect last night's events.

Edited June 15, 2015 by mac123x

[MadMouse]

http://i.imgur.com/FOgw833.gif

 

Pretty much sums up my feelings about Dorne this season

Edited June 15, 2015 by MadMouse

[nksarmi]

I am getting increasingly bitter.  Now I want the idiot NW to dump Jon's body over the Wall so the Night King can find it and make him a WW (not a wight) - I'm ready to see Jon Snow WW riding an f-ing giant ice spider now.  Maybe Dany never goes back to Westerous after all and she just ends up ruling that continent with Fire while Jon rules an never ending Winter on Westerous?  Works for me.

[FemmyV]

 

it was the idea that people are criticizing Sansa for being passive. I was trying to point out that many of those who are unhappy with this storyline because of Sansa somehow acting like a victim, but because Bryan Cogman went to the press basically saying this story was some type of strength or empowerment for Sansa, and many of us did not see this alleged empowerment, unless calling someone a bastard = empowerment.

 

As a book reader, I appreciated the LACK of Sansa in DwD and was looking forward to the break for the show. It's just one example of D & Deviations that are frustrating because they don't do anything very useful in the long run, just run minutes off the clock until we can get to the next big plot point.

 

Likewise, Stannis lately. Book tells us the Stannis / Bolton fight goes on 7 days and IIRC is itself a minor cliffhanger. D & D chose to blow that one for us, by setting up Stannis to lose 1/2 his army. I didn't exactly predict that in the 5/9 thread, but quoted Tyrion's caution to Dany about killing her devotees .... I guess the showrunners dropped that anvil on us, too.  I don't know that I expected Stannis to win, necessarily, but I didn't expect to see him so crushed, so SOON. I guess maybe .. killing Shireen when they did, how they did, set us viewers up for Stannis' destruction before we were ready.

 

That is, if Brienne actually killed him. Now there's that? I can see her sparing him for one reason, only: she's been a guest of the Boltons.

Edited June 15, 2015 by FemmyV

[franopy]

I am getting increasingly bitter.  Now I want the idiot NW to dump Jon's body over the Wall so the Night King can find it and make him a WW (not a wight) - I'm ready to see Jon Snow WW riding an f-ing giant ice spider now.  Maybe Dany never goes back to Westerous after all and she just ends up ruling that continent with Fire while Jon rules an never ending Winter on Westerous?  Works for me.

And imagine what they could do with his luscious hair, WW Jon would be one terrifying ice spider riding troll doll!

Edited June 15, 2015 by franopy

[Asha124]

I think I'm done wirh the show (I might change mind in the 10-month pause but I doubt it).

- God, I hope Jon is dead and stays dead. I really hate the fantastic 4 (Daenerys, Tyrion, Arya and Jon) and their ridiculous plot armor.

- D&D shoul be locked in some far away land and never be allowed to ruin any more books.

- Dillane deserves every reward there is. I hope Stannis lives. Maybe Brienne realized that her duty was to protect Sansa and not to kill a man who already lost everything.

- Theon snapping out of it was so random. Sophie and Alfie are great but the writing for them is so awful it hurts my brain.

- the killing of Meryn Trant was so badly acted. On the other hand the scene where Jaqen drinks the poison was great.

- Could Dorne be any more pointless? I don't care for any of the new characters. Why kill Myrcella? More importantly why kill her so stupidly?

- The Jaime x Myrcella scene was cringeworthy. Nikolaj looked like he already checked out. I really wish we got the Jaime in Riverrun story instead.

- Lena was great like always. I wonder if she would use body double if she wasn't pregnant. I didn't feel sorry for Cersei at all.

- Tyrion's 'How to became a ruler in three days' story is so ridiculous. Even more ridiculous was Varys randomly showing in Meereen.

- Daenerys talking to Drogon was a brilliant example of Emilia's nonexistent ability to act.

- When did Melisandre leave Stannis? Where was Ghost? Where did Pod go? When did Ramsay became such an amazing warrior? Is Gendry still rowing? Is Blackfish still pissing? What happened to Edmure? Where is Littlefinger? What abou the Tyrells? Why is everybody on this show so stupid?

[GreyBunny]

If it turns out that Jon is DEAD dead and not coming back in any form ever, then I tip my hat to GRRM for being the biggest troll ever.  Setting up a main character with mysterious parentage and chatter of some supernatural specialness only to snuff him out for good before the biggest battles happen.  I kind of admire that.

[Helena Dax]

So Sam is going to become a maester in time to help Jon to fight the White Walkers? What's he going to do, a 40 hours course?

 

In a story full of magic, dragons, wargs and zombies, the less realistic thing to me was the Walk of Shame. Westeros is too Middle Age. I just can't believe a Queen Mother would be humilliated like this. And while the Lannisters are in a weak position, they're still the ruling House. Tommen could make the Sparrows ilegal in a second. Besides, I said it before: I don't want Cersei to pay for her sex life. I want her to pay for her crimes. 

 

On the other hand, Lena was amazing. And  her Cersei seemed to  be ready for revenge. 

 

Qyburn is fascinating. He's  got a really gentle nature  but zero ethics. He doesn't delight in other people's suffering, he was honestly sweet to Cersei... I can't see him harming anyone outside his experiments. Yet he's one of the biggest monsters in Westeros.

 

Loved Tyrion and Varys together. Loved it.

 

I must admit I was wrong about Sansa's plot: I trusted the writers, I believed it was going to lead to something good, but it was disappointing. Anyway, I'm happy she and Theon could escape.

 

Another disappointing plot? Dorne. 

 

Stannis is gone too. Good riddance. He knew he was going to die anyway and I'm glad Brienne did it. I wanted Davos to do it, but Brienne was my second choice.

 

Trant totally deserved what he got. 

 

Killing Jon for good would be such a stupid move I can't believe that's Martin's plan for him. No way. Subverting tropes is one thing, but this would render Jon's storyline absolutely pointless. So yes, I'm pretty sure Mel will resurrect him. In the show, there's no other reason for her to be there. 

[Raachel2008]

but I did like how she and Theon helped each other to escape and her willingness to take a literal leap of faith off the Wintefell wall.

 

 

In the books there were mentions of Robb, Jon, Bran and Arya jumping off the Winterfell wall on soft snow more than once (IIRC). Sansa knew it could be done. 

[Avaleigh]

So Sam is going to become a maester in time to help Jon to fight the White Walkers? What's he going to do, a 40 hours course?

Another thing we'll have to hand wave away, I guess. It's like people becoming doctors after a month of medical school on a soap opera. Sam the Quarter Maester does have kind of a ring to it though. 

 

I'm more annoyed that Sam essentially talked Jon into letting him take off with Gilly rather than it being Jon's own idea. 

[that one guy]

I'm disappointed that Thorne was in on the FTW knifing.  I really liked the shading they'd given him as the season went along -- he went from a dick who hated Jon simply for being a bastard and a member of the nobility to seemingly developing a grudging respect for him.  In that scene where Jon named him First Ranger instead of Head Latrine Digger the actor's expressions were brilliantly complex; I loved it.  Then he threw Slynt under the bus.  Then he let Jon back through the gate with the Wildlings.  Then he told him he had a big heart -- even though he thought it would bring disaster upon them.  I thought it would have been much more interesting to have him NOT be part of the mutiny, and in fact punish the mutineers, out of respect for protocol and the chain of command if nothing else.  But nope.  After all that interesting character development, he's just a dick in the end.  Boo.

I don't see it this way. I like Thorne, he's good at his job, which requires him to be a hardass. He's committed to the watch - his (Targaryen) side lost the war and he took the black to avoid death or prison, but he's come to identify with their cause after two decades in black. He's come to respect Jon's abilities, and Jon's come to respect his. This is a case where you have two characters committed to the same cause, who just really, really don't agree with each other on a substantive issue where the stakes are life and death. Each believes that if the other's course of action is taken, it will be the end of civilization. I think he's wrong, but I don't think he's being a dick here - actually he's committing and act for which he must assume he may be executed (he has no idea Stannis is dead).

 

It's interesting how the changes have snowballed here, though. With no pink letter Jon's betrayal is purely about the Wildlings, and there's no pink letter because there's no Mance Rayder. Even if you don't think Mance wrote the letter in the book (which I do) it's all about wildlings.

"I want my bride back. I want the false king's queen. I want his daughter and his red witch. I want this wildling princess. I want his little prince, the wildling babe. And I want my Reek. Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard's heart and eat it."

 

But what am I saying, that's totally Mance. "Crows" gives him away.

[benteen]

Yeah, I found the discussion about Sam becoming a maester as quickly as possible so that he could return to the Wall to be ridiculous.  Even a crash course will take YEARS to accomplish.  Getting Sam down there to research the White Walkers is an excellent move to be sure.  But Sam isn't returning to the Wall anytime soon.  I think in the books too it's mentioned that Jon wanted another maester to be sent up to Castle Black in the meantime?

 

I'm annoyed too about it being Sam's decision.  Sending Sam down there was a good decision of Jon's from the book.  On the show, it looks like he never even considered the possibility.

[Happy Harpy]

Finally, Dany. I loved the sounds Drogon made while getting ready for his nap and noticed that the show really seems to like scenes of Dany being encircled by something, it reminded me of the "mhysa" scene in Yunkai from season 3.

Yes! "Mother" was a theme for Dany's finals every odd-numbered season I think, and I particularly liked the mirror effect expressed even in the title of the episode (IIRC, mhysa means mother?)

After this episode, I concluded that dragons, or at least Drogon, have the personality of cats. "Naw, I'm napping now, yaaawn".

Oh, I'd love to see (by the end of next season) Tyrion and Daenerys have witty discussions in Valyrian, about what to do with their ennemies, in front of said ennemies, and then he shrugs and she goes Dracarys! A woman needs some positive thinking.

Im not a book reader but dont mind being spoiled, especially on this day of depression.  I loved Jon Snow and he was one of the reasons I watched the show.

I just wonder if he is "dead-dead" but on the show "dead-dead" can be resurrected, is it possible they might toss his body North of the Wall and he becomes a white walker? 

Sorry if that sounds dumb.  I'm sad today.

I only can offer you a hug, for now that we're all Unsullied, the hiatus will be dark and full of terrors. I suspect we might all need group hug therapy during S6.

Well I guess that depends on one's perspective.  I've seen A LOT of people posting about how exciting they've found the Winterfell storyline and how Sansa is interesting for the first time and etc.

I'm curious about the Unsullied (who are offliners, on top of it) around me once they see S5. I wonder if they'll shift their views because none of them like her and S4 didn't change their mind in the least.

Even though it included the worst when it comes to Sansa's physical integrity, the Winterfell storyline did imo the best for her psychological evolution. It was way more believable imo than MalefiSansa suddenly ruling over the viper's pit, or the shark tank. 

And although the bleakness took its toll on me, I'm beginning to realize that Sansa in the Vale, as the plot goes in the books, would have stuck like a sore thumb in the general atmosphere of S5. Especially after "Hardhome". Can you imagine the general reaction if, while every character or almost hit rock bottom (including Cersei and Margaery in jail, out of their fineries, Loras arrested, Arya whipped on a daily basis, Brienne having lost faith, the NW turning against Jon, Shireen being burned etc.) and the threat of the WW got more real, Sansa had been flirting, eating lemon cakes, and giggling while playing in Littlefinger's hand, in what is after all the little pond of regional politics ? It would have been even more reviled thand Dorne, imo.

I don't say that I like what Sansa had to go through -but again, I don't know how it ends in the books...somehow, I doubt that it will be with her marching upon Winterfell at the head of the Vale armies. But I think that her character finally made lemonade out of the sour, rotten lemons life threw at her.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[SFoster21]

In the books, aren't Qyburn's tortures instrumental in getting confessions from more of her alleged lovers? He's a stone cold sadist serial killer in the books and beholden to no one, least of all Cersei. In fact, people she hates are sent to him in the guise of being sent for healing.

Just like the Sparrows, he's a force she has unleashed that will turn on her. He created that gollum that will be surely be part of her downfall.

When he so kindly took her away, I thought, oh no! Not him!

Edited June 15, 2015 by SFoster21

[Haleth]

I don't mind Sam coming up with the idea of training to be a maester. His timidity in the book is really annoying. The clever, innovative Sam of the show is a more enjoyable character.

[Andromeda]

I think Theon decided to help Sansa in that moment because it sounded to me like Myranda was talking about how Sansa would essentially be turned into a female version of Reek over time. Maybe she'd smell better but when Myranda started talking about taking away "parts" and saying how Ramsay doesn't need all of Sansa, to me it looked like something in his face changed and he didn't think that Sansa deserved to go through an experience that would be similar to his nightmare. That's how it seemed to me. 

 

I feel bad that so many Unsullied seem to think that Theon and Sansa chose to commit suicide together. I can see how that would feel like a bit of a blow. 

Yes, I agree thats what switched Theon's switch. In the book, I pictured a leap of about 20 feet into a tall snowbank, not a 100-foot suicide leap. No wonder people think they went out like Butch and Sundance.

[fellini]

In ‘Game of Thrones’ Finale, a Breakdown in Storytelling

 

You wouldn’t have thought that a show based on a beloved series of books, with hundreds of pages of existing story to work from — a “mythology” that is an actual mythology — would become the “Lost” of its television generation. But that’s where “Game of Thrones” finds itself after Sunday night’s Season 5 finale: a wildly popular show that seems to have lost its way, and to be losing faith with a growing number of its viewers.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/16/arts/television/in-game-of-thrones-finale-a-breakdown-in-storytelling.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=mini-moth&region=top-stories-below&WT.nav=top-stories-below&_r=0

[trif]

I've seen a few comments along the lines of 'What was Ellaria thinking killing Myrcella when Trystane is on board?' as well as 'Jaime better turn that ship around and demand her head!'

 

My reading is that Elliaria may not care if Trystane is killed by the Lannisters, and in fact it may be what she is hoping since she wants outright war with King's Landing, and it seems no lesser loss will change Doran's mind. I'm not sure how she's hoping to escape with her own life if Doran blames her for putting Trystane in danger, which of course he should, though maybe that's a price she's willing to pay.

 

I would assume Trystane would be in command of the ship, but if for some reason Jaime is, I'm not sure it's 100% in his interest to turn around (assuming Myrcella is even dead, because Tyene made it sounds like the poison works more slowly). If he turns around, he runs the risk that Doran decides that war is inevitable between their two countries and takes Jaime hostage. He also runs the risk of Elliaria making another move. Whereas if he continues to King's Landing, the Lannisters at least have Trystane as a hostage and Jaime at least has his personal safety (which granted wasn't a huge motivation to him previously, but still) and the chance to plot revenge, if he now finds he cares enough about Myrcella to want that.

 

Of course the whole arc is so truncated pretty much any next move is possible, and I'm not holding my breath for a cogent explanation of whatever move is chosen, but I'm curious as to what other people think.

Edited June 15, 2015 by trif

[MadMouse]

Yes, "mother" was a theme for Dany's finals every odd-numbered season I think, and I particularly liked the mirror effect expressed even in the title of the episode (IIRC, mhysa means mother?)

After this episode, I concluded that dragons, or at least Drogon, have the personality of cats. "Naw, I'm napping now, yaaawn".

Oh, I'd love to see (by the end of next season) Tyrion and Daenerys have witty discussions in Valyrian, about what to do with their ennemies, in front of said ennemies, and then he shrugs and she goes Dracarys! A woman needs some positive thinking.

I only can offer you a hug, for now that we're all Unsullied, the hiatus will be dark and full of terrors. I suspect we might all need group hug therapy during S6.

I'm curious about the Unsullied (who are offliners, on top of it) around me once they see S5. I wonder if they'll shift their views because none of them like her and S4 didn't change their mind in the least.

Even though it included the worst when it comes to Sansa's physical integrity, the Winterfell storyline did imo the best for her psychological evolution. It was way more believable imo than MalefiSansa suddenly ruling over the viper's pit, or the shark tank. 

And although the bleakness took its toll on me, I'm beginning to realize that Sansa in the Vale, as the plot goes in the books, would have stuck like a sore thumb in the general atmosphere of S5. Especially after "Hardhome". Can you imagine the general reaction if, while every character or almost hit rock bottom (including Cersei and Margaery in jail, out of their fineries, Loras arrested, Arya whipped on a daily basis, Brienne having lost faith, the NW turning against Jon, Shireen being burned etc.) and the threat of the WW got more real, Sansa had been flirting, eating lemon cakes, and giggling while playing in Littlefinger's hand, in what is after all the little pond of regional politics ? It would have been even more reviled thand Dorne, imo.

I don't say that I like what Sansa had to go through -but again, I don't know how it ends in the books...somehow, I doubt that it will be with her marching upon Winterfell at the head of the Vale armies. But I think that her character finally made lemonade out of the sour, rotten lemons life threw at her.

 

But making all of S5 bleak was their choice, all the hopeful moments from the books were deliberately cut. Having Littlefinger reveal his plan to marry Sansa to the heir of the Vale, to rally them and the North would have worked fine.

[Holmbo]

I'm sad :(

Not really about any of the characters just about the show overall. This season has been such a huge step down in quality IMO. I understand the source material offering complications but it's not just that. So many individual scenes this season just haven't got their mark for me. And now that we're at the end there is whole story lines which felt absolutely pointless.

To end on a positive note ;)

I'm glad that show Tyrion knows Valyrian too. I also like how this show manages to shock me even with who doesn't die. Bronn survived. I never would have guessed that in a million years.

[Bass90]

Hopefully Wun Wun crushes Olly, there is no "Ser Patrek" in the show after all

Poor Trystane, it's going to be an awkward trip to King's Landing

[Alapaki]

Thoughts after a night to sleep on it:

 

1.  Stannis:  There's no way any of his soldiers make it into those woods alive.  They were surrounded by a mounted force at least twice their size, in a completely indefensible, unfortified position.  And there's certainly no way Roose Bolton pulls his troops from the field without personally having Stannis brought to him, dead or alive.  To say nothing of the Bolton forces allowing a amazonian female knight to just waltz across the battlefield.  

 

I ​do believe that Stannis is dead, though.  I don't think they would've had him commit the Shireen atrocity if it wasn't the set up for his own death.

 

Finally, it comes from the books (by way of back-story), but Stannis marching a severely depleted, under-armed force against Winterfell goes against his reputation as a great strategist (who defeated the Iron Islanders in a sea battle, defended Storms' End against the Tyrells, and captured Dragonstone from the remnants of the Targaryen forces).

 

2. Jon:  I have always been of the belief that Jon isn't dead-dead.  And all of the reasons still apply.  But something about watching this season has me thinking that Jon being dead-and-gone is perhaps not as unthinkable as I once considered it.  Ever since Ned's head rolled, I've been racking my brains wondering who the heck is the Protagonist in this story.  I just started re-reading the series, starting with Book 1.  And it may be significant that the first chapter in Book 1 is "Bran".  Does GRRM plan for the story to begin and end with him?  And if so, perhaps Jon becomes a lot more dispensable.

 

Plus, killing Jon after he's brought the Wildlings south of the Wall creates an interesting dilemma for next season (that I'm wondering if they're just going to brush over).  The Wildlings now at Castle Black (led by Tormund) now vastly outnumber the men of the Night's Watch (by an order of hundreds-to-one).  How do the Wildlings not just completely wipe out the NW for having murdered their savior?

 

3. Dorne: Waste of time.

 

4. Varys: GET THE FUCK BACK TO KINGS LANDING AND START THINNING OUT THAT SMALL COUNCIL!!!!!

[annlaw78]

In a story full of magic, dragons, wargs and zombies, the less realistic thing to me was the Walk of Shame. Westeros is too Middle Age. I just can't believe a Queen Mother would be humilliated like this. And while the Lannisters are in a weak position, they're still the ruling House. Tommen could make the Sparrows ilegal in a second. Besides, I said it before: I don't want Cersei to pay for her sex life. I want her to pay for her crimes.

Wordy word word.

[Avaleigh]

From the Stannis thead:

"This is Stannis Baratheon, the man will fight to the bitter end and then some"
He's gonna come back as a wight, isn't he?

Damn, I just realized that Ramsay isn't going to have any of those bodies burned...

[Andromeda]

They can't wait a whole season to resurrect Jon. Lady Stoneheart was resurrected after her body had rotted too much and that's part of why she's so horrifying and also brings the cray-cray. Plus, Jon's body would be burned ASAP. 

I keep thinking of logistics -- how could Mel resurrect Jon when the entire NW just killed him and will be back in a moment to burn his body? Why would they let her anywhere near his corpse? Even if she thinks now that he's the chosen one, how will she prevent the entire castle from burning his corpse right away? She'd have to use a ruse to secret it away somewhere...in the castle? How's she going to move it? The NW know now they have to burn bodies immediately -- Jon himself taught them that.

 

So many fans believe the R+L=J theory, but I have never completely accepted it or warmed to it, for one big reason -- I hate hate hate that it would mean Ned lied to his beloved wife, Catelyn, all of Jon's life, causing her to mistreat Jon and doubt her husband's faithfulness to her, all on a false assumption. It irrevocably affected Jon's childhood and his own marriage. If it's true, Ned should have let his own wife in on it. That has always been a huge sticking point for me.

 

I was dreading Cersei's walk because it felt exploitative, but it was really well done.  There was nothing sexy about it in the least.  I almost felt sorry for her.

 

This will be unpopular, but I can't hate Thorne for stabbing Jon.  No, I dont' condone it.  Yes, it was an overreaction and short sighted, given the needs of the NW and the thousands of Wilding Friends of Jon hanging around.  And the NW men were certainly wrong in the way they handled the situation.  But Thorne and the others (Bowen Marsh in the book) truly felt that Jon had betrayed his NW vows and were justly removing him from command.  They would call it a brave and heroic move to protect the integrity of Night Watch.  It was not the murderers and rapists who carried it out, but the men who were truly dedicated to their vows.

True. I never really saw Thorne warming to Jon, not really. He always despised Jon. He kept his peace and went along playing his role as First Ranger, until the unrest and unhappiness in the ranks built to a head and made a move against Jon available to him.

 

Plus, for the NW, the stakes are more practical and immediate than an eventual White Walker invasion -- no doubt they worry that the new Wildlings will attack again with their greater numbers, kick them out of Castle Black, and eat all the food they've squirreled away for the long winter to come. Not at all unrealistic things to worry about.

 

If it turns out that Jon is DEAD dead and not coming back in any form ever, then I tip my hat to GRRM for being the biggest troll ever.  Setting up a main character with mysterious parentage and chatter of some supernatural specialness only to snuff him out for good before the biggest battles happen.  I kind of admire that.

How much supernatural specialness has been in the show, though? I don't recall much. Most (or all) of the Jon = warg stuff was removed.

 

I hope Jon stays dead. I want to see what happens next. A White Walker Jon would be very cool, though. But I can't see them not burning his body immediately.

 

Can you imagine the general reaction if, while every character or almost hit rock bottom (including Cersei and Margaery in jail, out of their fineries, Loras arrested, Arya whipped on a daily basis, Brienne having lost faith, the NW turning against Jon, Shireen being burned etc.) and the threat of the WW got more real, Sansa had been flirting, eating lemon cakes, and giggling while playing in Littlefinger's hand, in what is after all the little pond of regional politics ? It would have been even more reviled thand Dorne, imo.

YES. I hate the Sansa in the Vale stuff. I read the latest new chapter released by GRR, and just rolled my eyes. It sounded very romance-novel to me, and like it didn't even fit in the same universe.

[Fen]

1. I don't think Jon is dead for long.  Melisandre's arrival at the Wall was too fortuitous.  On saying that - I was still pretty shocked when it happened.  A Westeros without Jon Snow is not a good place.

 

2. I don't think Stannis is dead either.  That comment to Brienne about duty hit home - this is not her duty, this is personal revenge.  She needs all the help she can get to rescue Sansa, and Stannis is more valauble alive than dead.  Plus, it cut away before we saw anything.  Going with alive.  If that is true - then I'd love to see where they take Stannis next season: the king who has lost everything but his claim.  Making characters lose everything and then get a redemptive arc is something this story does well.

 

3. Dorne was badly-paced, badly plotted and didn't achieve anything until that final scene.  Oberyn was a fan favourite - it should have been easy to make viewers feel conflicted about Jaime vs Sand Snakes.  Instead, they're almost universally perceived as irrational, vicious wastes of screen time.  No pay-off, for me - anyway.

 

4. I cheered when Theon shoved Myranda over the wall and she went splat.  Hoping that he and Sansa both survived that fall.

 

5. I couldn't help but root for Cersei during her walk of shame.  Now she has Franken-Gregor, I sense that Sister Gigantor may not be long for this earth.

[FemmyV]

 

Damn, I just realized that Ramsay isn't going to have any of those bodies burned...

 

No WWs south of the wall. Yet.

[Andromeda]

 

I ​do believe that Stannis is dead, though.  I don't think they would've had him commit the Shireen atrocity if it wasn'tthe set up for his own death.

 

Finally, it comes from the books (by way of back-story), but Stannis marching a severely depleted, under-armed force against Winterfell goes against his reputation as a great strategist (who defeated the Iron Islanders in a sea battle, defended Storms' End against the Tyrells, and captured Dragonstone from the remnants of the Targaryen forces).

I think Stannis knew perfectly well he would likely be defeated and it wasn't like in the past, when his careful strategy ensured victory. All that went out the window when he burned Shireen. That atrocity, followed by the mass desertions, the suicide of his wife, the disappearance of Melisandre all piled up, giving him two choices -- either back out of the attack on Winterfell and admit you're not the chosen one and you murdered your daughter and caused your wife's death for nothing, or push forward on the slim hope that somehow you will prevail.