S05.E09: The Dance Of Dragons

[Chris24601]

What  makes her great, IMO, is that she WANTS to do the right thing and she makes her decisions based on her conscious and a need to be fair.  That is as good as you can get in a ruler.  Jon does the same, but doesn't get half the hate.

One advantage Jon has over Dany in that regard though is that he's also going out and putting himself on the line for what he's doing while Dany has others carry out her decrees. Take the mutinous guy after the Lord Commander election... Jon executes him with his own blade. When Dany has someone executed she has a lackey do it.

 

Plus Jon's never thrown a potentially innocent man to his death at the hands of dragons because he was pissed that someone killed her friend/advisor or been shown playing politics by making choices that go against his principles and cost people their lives as part of going along to get along (i.e. re-opening the fighting pits). Dany expects everyone to bow to her enlightened despotism while Jon treats his defeated opponents with respect. He comes off as humble and wanting to serve while Dany since the end of s1 has come off as arrogant and demanding to rule.

 

That's the sort of stuff that gives Jon a lot of leeway that Dany hasn't earned in that regard.

[Timetoread]

YES!

 

I LOVE her! It's her story I'm most interested in, and I think EC does a fine, fine job. She's not wooden, she's playing a character who's reserved. The way she said "get him out of my sight" last week was full of emotion. And her resignation when she thought she was dying. The love on her face with drogon (who, remember, wouldn't be there! she's acting in a vacuum!)

 

I think she's terrific.

Indeed.  When Tyrion described her last week as the baby girl with nothing but her name - no money, no army, no land (and when you think about it, no family, no allies, no homebase) and now she's acquired all of it.  I remembered back through the seasons and what she has been through and done to acquire these things.  She is to me the most impressive.  She was sold to a warlord king by her horrible, molesting brother and managed to get him to love AND respect her and even dispatch her brother for her.  She "birthed" the dragons - something nobody has done for centuries.  She went through the desert and chessgamed her way through three different cities against men who literally laughed in her face.  SHE, in her own plan, acquired her army.  She frees slaves and coddles dragons and makes dishonorable men honorable.  Sorry but Dany's a bad bitch!  That btw, is the highest compliment that I bestow to a fellow female - it means that I think she is smart and deserving and she has my vote.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Timetoread

[DarkRaichu]

Jon has prettier hair than Danny.  Advantage Jon :P

[Dobian]

My only problem with Dany is her inexperience as a leader causes her to make some fundamental mistakes and underestimate her opposition, like in the arena last night.  Tyrion has already pointed out some of her mistakes and given her some helpful advice.  She'll have him to thank if she can nab the Iron Throne.

[peggy06]

I was trying to make some sort of sense of this story, and about what the "moral" of the tale might be, if there even is one. The only thing I could come up with, is that it is telling the audience that adhering to any sort of extreme is dangerous and wrong. Ned clung to truth and honor even when it destroyed him, Cersei and Bolton are willing to do any horrible thing to get ahead and gain power, the religious fanatics cling to their beliefs no matter what, Stannis is willing to sacrifice innocents for power. I hope that the end will teach us that those (Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Arya) who are essentially good, but who are also willing to do things they don't like to achieve the correct end goal, are the victors in this story. Not a bad lesson for the current, real-life world either.

 

Or everyone who has ever done anything good will die a slow and painful death and the zombies will win.

I actually don't expect any type of moral from this story. It seems to be to be pure storytelling for its own sake. Nothing wrong with that, except -

 

I watch the show and get psyched for it and talk back to the TV and often am on the edge of my seat. But I do wonder if we're all going to look back in a few years and it's going to look just exploitative. This season alone has seen how many truly heinous acts?

[SimoneS]

I was trying to make some sort of sense of this story, and about what the "moral" of the tale might be, if there even is one. 

 

There is no "moral" of the tale. It is a Game of Thrones in a brutal world where good and bad people die indiscriminately.

 

One advantage Jon has over Dany in that regard though is that he's also going out and putting himself on the line for what he's doing while Dany has others carry out her decrees. Take the mutinous guy after the Lord Commander election... Jon executes him with his own blade. When Dany has someone executed she has a lackey do it.

 

Plus Jon's never thrown a potentially innocent man to his death at the hands of dragons because he was pissed that someone killed her friend/advisor or been shown playing politics by making choices that go against his principles and cost people their lives as part of going along to get along (i.e. re-opening the fighting pits). Dany expects everyone to bow to her enlightened despotism while Jon treats his defeated opponents with respect. He comes off as humble and wanting to serve while Dany since the end of s1 has come off as arrogant and demanding to rule.

 

That's the sort of stuff that gives Jon a lot of leeway that Dany hasn't earned in that regard.

 

I don't agree with this all. You are attempting to spin disparate situations to give Jon some kind of edge as the better leader. Jon is a lord commander not a monarch like Dany so of course he does his own executions. If one day he becomes king of the Westeros or North, he will not be executing people himself either. As for Jon, "humble and ready serve," I clearly remember how snobby he was about the other members of the Night Watch until Tyrion pointed out that he was fortunate to come a good loving family and have been trained to fight by a quality swordsman. Both Jon and Dany are doing the best they can in difficult situations. 

Edited June 8, 2015 by SimoneS

[Chicago Redshirt]

I'm not surprised at Stannis.  He never seemed to care for Shireen at all, so even though I thought that scene was heartbreaking, it didn't shock me.

 

Stannis is rarely capable of showing affection to anyone or anything. But there were scenes where he clearly seemed to love her as much as someone like him is capable of loving someone. Earlier this season when he talked about essentially going to the ends of the earth to treat her greyscale, for instance. 

 

And for X episodes, we've been treated to his hype man talking about how Stannis has always stood for justice and fairness, even if it might seem cruel.

 

This is the first act of Stannis where I think most of us in our safe couches and beds would say the ends don't justify the means.

 

And yet, I could see for Stannis and his men, they would. 

 

Winter is coming, along with the White Walkers, and their wight army and their spiders and God knows what else. Stannis has been told over and over again he's the last hope for humanity. If he doesn't do something drastic, he and his men (and all hope for humanity) die in freezing agony in the next couple weeks. 

 

Put in those terms, what's the life of one 12-year-old girl with greyscale compared to the rest of the human race?

Edited June 8, 2015 by Chicago Redshirt

[Athena]

True and good leadership and management is knowing that are you fallible and that are other people can do some things better. A leader listens and allows it to happen. Dany is at least moving towards that with Tyrion and Jorah. Jon has also acknowledged his lack of knowledge and experience. Stannis does not have that in his life or refuses to listen to it.

[DarkRaichu]

My only problem with Dany is her inexperience as a leader causes her to make some fundamental mistakes and underestimate her opposition, like in the arena last night.  Tyrion has already pointed out some of her mistakes and given her some helpful advice.  She'll have him to thank if she can nab the Iron Throne.

The main difference between Jon and Dany was Jon had the opportunity to learn from good leaders like Ned and Lord Commander Mormont, also bad ones like Allister.  While Dany pretty much had to figured out by herself based on examples set by her a-hole brother, horse riding barbarian, and a handful advisers she picked up along the way. 

Edited June 8, 2015 by DarkRaichu

[ulkis]

There is no "moral" of the tale. It is a Game of Thrones in a brutal world where good and bad people die indiscriminately.

 

I don't agree with this all. You are attempting to spin disparate situations to give Jon some kind of edge as the better leader. Jon is a lord commander not a monarch like Dany so of course he does his own executions. If one day he becomes king of the Westeros or North, he will not be executing people himself either. As for Jon, "humble and ready serve," I clearly remember how snobby he was about the other members of the Night Watch until Tyrion pointed out that he was fortunate to come a good loving family and have been trained to fight by a quality swordsman. Both Jon and Dany are doing the best they can in difficult situations.

I think if Jon became king of all Westeros he might delegate his executions, but if became King in the North he would probably do it on his own like Ned did, imo. I'm not sure but I don't think lord commanders of the night's watch executed executions on their own either.

That said, I don't blame Dany for not doing it herself, for many reasons, the first of which she probably is not strong enough physically.

[SimoneS]

But Jon just became a leader like a couple weeks. How can anyone tell what kind of leader he will be? He already has caused dissent in the Night's Watch because he did not explain more clearly what they need the Wildings. Also, Ned and Mormont both died from bad judgement so they were flawed leaders although good men.

 

As for Dany, the issue I have is that some people are criticizing her for things beyond her control like the Sons of the Harpies. She re-opened the fighting pits against her better judgement on the advice of Hiz, Daario, and Tyrion and she was almost killed. She would have been better off adhering to her initial decision to keep the pits closed. Yet, I don't see any acknowledgement of that instead she is being called out as a bad leader. 

Edited June 8, 2015 by SimoneS

[CeeBeeGee]

I don't agree with this all. You are attempting to spin disparate situations to give Jon some kind of edge as the better leader. Jon is a lord commander not a monarch like Dany so of course he does his own executions. If one day he becomes king of the Westeros or North, he will not be executing people himself either. As for Jon, "humble and ready serve," I clearly remember how snobby he was about the other members of the Night Watch until Tyrion pointed out that he was fortunate to come a good loving family and have been trained to fight by a quality swordsman. Both Jon and Dany are doing the best they can in difficult situations. 

 

Also Dany hasn't been trained in how to kill anyone. If she'd been the one to wield the sword on the guy who killed the Harpy son a few episodes back, she would've had to hack away at him which would've been torture for the condemned. Read about how Henry VIII's execution of his cousin, the Countess of Salisbury went for a real life example. (No, Henry didn't wield the sword but he used an inexperienced axeman and an old lady was literally hacked to death on the block. The same thing happened to Thomas Cromwell.) It's great that Jon can take the personal responsibility to carry out his own orders but that's not always possible or feasible.

[morgankobi]

Over the course of the week, there was speculation that Ramsay would bring not only men with him, but also his kennel of hunting dogs. I don't think that happened. For one thing, the operation went down pretty quietly. But more importantly, if there had been dogs involved, I think Melisandre would have said something. Probably something along the lines of "for the night is dark... and full of terriers."

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how you masterfully set-up a joke.

 

I want to see a battle of the messed-up fundies. Red Witch vs. the Sparrows.

Edited June 8, 2015 by morgankobi

[DarkRaichu]

When Jorah was flat on his back and at the second fighter's mercy, the third fighter choose to stab the second fighter in the back rather than wait until after the second fighter killed Jorah.  I'm not sure why the third fighter would have done that unless he figured Jorah was essentially done anyway and better to take out the bigger threat immediately, or least while the bigger threat wasn't moving, as the second fighter would be if he had stabbed Jorah.

The 2nd fighter was so good with his water dancing that he made it look like Jorah was a pushover. So 3rd fighter took out the bigger threat first.  However, he probably did not realize that Jorah's 1st kill was also a guy with spear.

[Timetoread]

One advantage Jon has over Dany in that regard though is that he's also going out and putting himself on the line for what he's doing while Dany has others carry out her decrees. Take the mutinous guy after the Lord Commander election... Jon executes him with his own blade. When Dany has someone executed she has a lackey do it.

 

Plus Jon's never thrown a potentially innocent man to his death at the hands of dragons because he was pissed that someone killed her friend/advisor or been shown playing politics by making choices that go against his principles and cost people their lives as part of going along to get along (i.e. re-opening the fighting pits). Dany expects everyone to bow to her enlightened despotism while Jon treats his defeated opponents with respect. He comes off as humble and wanting to serve while Dany since the end of s1 has come off as arrogant and demanding to rule.

 

That's the sort of stuff that gives Jon a lot of leeway that Dany hasn't earned in that regard.

 

Actually that's not true.  Dany killed the witch who killed Kahl Drogo.  She's not a man who has been trained to be a soldier/warrior.  She's a girl who was born a neglected royal.  Jon doesn't act like a royal because he isn't one.  He's humble because even in his own family he was a Snow.  She feels entitled to rule because her family ruled for hundreds of years - it was a birthright until very recently - her father was the king.  She married a ruler and ruled at his side and in his stead when he died.  Jon hasn't gone against his principles, oh yeah, except for that time when he broke a sworn oath in order to get laid by the red head whose group of barbarians killed some of his "friends".  Jon comes off as a man of honor because he was raised by one - taught to fight, taught to execute his own sentences, taught brotherhood by oath and admission to a fraternity.  He has and has always had a support system.  Dany has not, everything she's obtained has been through her own smarts, whether she kills someone with her bare hands or not.  And now that she has her own army, her own attack dragons, and several close advisors who are master swordsmen, it would simply be stupid for her to risk herself going to fisticuffs with random rabblerousers. 

 

I don't say this to belittle Jon.  I find him more impressive with each passing season.  I'm saying that both of these kids (because they are both teenagers in GOT time, right?) are playing a good game with the hands that they were dealt.  And yet, as always, the female is judged harsher, forgiven less, and begrudged longer than the male.  Jon can do no wrong yet Dany can do no right.  His every action is of honor, hers is of greed.  He makes a mistake because - he had bad intel, the conditions were wrong, boys will be boys, people are mean.  She makes a mistake - well that's because she's an idiot who doesn't know her "place".  He's proud enough to run for office of Master Commander (or whatever his title is), but she, who is Queen, is arrogant and demanding for not fighting in wars by herself (when was the last time we referred to a man as demanding?).  He's brave, she's just lucky and would be nothing without the THOUSANDS of men she inspires to fight for her.  She definitely aspires to rule (something that not one single MAN on this show who aspires to the same thing has been faulted for) but she aspires to rule justly which is more than ANY man on this show has expressed an interest in doing.  But yeah, she's the bad guy.  Jon we will give a chance to try.  She, however has to EARN our respect with perfection.  Falling short of perfection means she doesn't deserve it. 

My only problem with Dany is her inexperience as a leader causes her to make some fundamental mistakes and underestimate her opposition, like in the arena last night.  Tyrion has already pointed out some of her mistakes and given her some helpful advice.  She'll have him to thank if she can nab the Iron Throne.

 

As opposed to inexperienced leaders Ned Stark, Rob Stark, Theon Greyjoy, Joffrey Barathon, Tommus Baratheon?  No mistakes in that bunch >sarcasm alert<  One gains experience through experience.  And she did thank the chained slave Tyrion with a price on his head, she hired him as her chief advisor - the hand of the Queen.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Timetoread

[Constantinople]

It's worth noting that Jon and Daenerys are leading entirely different organizations.

 

I'm not sure how many men are left at all 3 towers, but Jon mentioned he lost about 50 brothers at the Battle of Castle Black, and there were only about 100 there beforehand.  Perhaps there are still 100 in total left now if you include Eastwatch and the Shadow Tower, but day-to-day it's only 50ish.

 

Daenerys is the leader of a city that has tens or hundreds of thousands of residents, if not millions.  Daario Naharis commands about 2,000 men and Grey Worm about 8,000, and both of them report to Daenerys.  Someone in either army who only had 50 men directly under his command might report to Grey Worm or Daario, or might report to the guy who reports to them.

 

Both Jon and Daenerys are faced with the challenge of changing the old ways to adapt to the times, but if the Night's Watch and the Wildlings don't adapt, they'll die, see Hardhome.  The Meereenese have other options.

 

In summary, I think Daenerys faces a much more complicated situation.

[KYBlonde]

 

Over the course of the week, there was speculation that Ramsay would bring not only men with him, but also his kennel of hunting dogs. I don't think that happened. For one thing, the operation went down pretty quietly. But more importantly, if there had been dogs involved, I think Melisandre would have said something. Probably something along the lines of "for the night is dark... and full of terriers."

 

I read this right before work and could not stop laughing,  I even did this suppressed snorting thing while listening to my boss.  She never knew that discussions of prevailing wage could be so funny.

[Chris24601]

 

I don't agree with this all. You are attempting to spin disparate situations to give Jon some kind of edge as the better leader.

 

Not at all. Just explaining why he gets the slack that you say Dany does not. People are a lot more tolerant of humble people who take action themselves than of people who come off as a bit more arrogant and have lackeys to do the distasteful stuff. That has no bearing on who's the more effective as a leader just on who the audience is likely to give more slack to when some action taken is unpopular.

 

Its basically been the same until recently with Sansa (more passive) vs. Arya (more active). Arya could make a bad decision and have it forgiven by the audience because at least she wasn't just being a victim. The same with Jon and Dany... Jon gets slack because he's the one running towards the battle to save lives when the villains turn up and not running for the exits to save yourself.

 

The big heroes of the arena were Jorah, Tyrion, Dario and Drago... even Hizdahr was trying to help... Dany was pretty much just trying to escape/not die throughout that fight even as her people were getting slaughtered around her. Contrast that with Jon at Hardhome fighting hopeless odds to buy innocent people more time to escape the White Walkers.

 

That's why Jon gets slack and Dany gets less. If Dany starts riding Drago at the head of the battle lines and roasting bad guys she'll start getting more slack too.

[DarkRaichu]

NVM bad joke

Edited June 8, 2015 by DarkRaichu

[Chicago Redshirt]

But Jon just became a leader like a couple weeks. How can anyone tell what kind of leader he will be? He already has caused dissent in the Night's Watch because he did not explain more clearly what they need the Wildings. Also, Ned and Mormont both died from bad judgement so they were flawed leaders although good men.

 

I think Jon has explained pretty clearly why they need the Wildings (i.e., it's got to be all hands on deck against the real enemy, the White Walkers; whatever the Wildings have done, they don't deserve to be massacred by the White Walkers; and even if they did, you do not want the White Walkers adding the Wildling dead to their army.)

 

I think it's just that the Night's Watch are too focused on their short-term needs (how will we get food and water enough to sustain them) and on the old rivalries to realize that Jon's right. 

[SimoneS]

It's worth noting that Jon and Daenerys are leading entirely different organizations.

 

I'm not sure how many men are left at all 3 towers, but Jon mentioned he lost about 50 brothers at the Battle of Castle Black, and there were only about 100 there beforehand.  Perhaps there are still 100 in total left now if you include Eastwatch and the Shadow Tower, but day-to-day it's only 50ish.

 

Daenerys is the leader of a city that has tens or hundreds of thousands of residents, if not millions.  Daario Naharis commands about 2,000 men and Grey Worm about 8,000, and both of them report to Daenerys.  Someone in either army who only had 50 men directly under his command might report to Grey Worm or Daario, or might report to the guy who reports to them.

 

Both Jon and Daenerys are faced with the challenge of changing the old ways to adapt to the times, but if the Night's Watch and the Wildlings don't adapt, they'll die, see Hardhome.  The Meereenese have other options.

 

In summary, I think Daenerys faces a much more complicated situation.

 

Exactly. We will see how Jon copes as a leader as the number of people under his command grows and the politics grow more complicated. Ned was great as Lord of Winterfell, only to be taken out by his political misjudgment in Westeros. Dany is basically a Queen with an occupation force against an insurgency led by oligarchs. Their situations are so disparate that I cannot buy into these comparisons to promote Jon as the better leader over Dany. I think that they are both coming into their own in different ways and this will end up saving everyone from the Whitewalkers.

Edited June 8, 2015 by SimoneS

[Sakura12]

The difference in the battle at Hardhome and the fighting pit is also the White Walker were not only trying to kill Jon, when the purpose of the Sons of the Harpy were to kill Dany. When she left it looked like they stopped going after anyone. 

 

They have all made terrible and stupid decisions, none of them are perfect because no one is perfect. Dany can't swing the sword because she's not trained too and as other pointed out that would've been worse torture for the person. Like when Theon tried it and had to take 2 to 3 swings to kill that guy. She has killed people when she has her dragons do it. That's like pointing a giant flame thrower at someone. 

[VCRTracking]

It's like the theory that  Ros was hated because she wasn't a character in the books, but then Karsi, the female Wildling showed up in the last people and people loved her even though she wasn't in the books either.(I hope I can mention that and it doesn't break rules) Ros was hated because she was used mainly for "sexposition" while Karsi was a badass and a mother, and fully fleshed out even for one episode. In just a short appearance, she was funny, strong, and pragmatic.

Edited June 8, 2015 by VCRTracking

[xaxat]

I'm still taking Khal Drogo first in the Game of Thrones Slaps Fantasy League.

 

[DigitalCount]

I feel the need to point out that Jon has never fed a potentially innocent man to Ghost, nor did he kill Ygritte's father and force her into a marriage with him. Most of the Dany dislike comes from the situations where she acts decisively and as if the facts don't matter when they do. This goes back to her sealing Doreah in the vault with Daxos, and I defended that decision.

Dany probably does have a good enough heart, but she did make very imperious speeches about being the rightful queen and how she'd burn Qarth to a cinder. She also double-crossed a guy for being sexist and then set him on fire. Jon has yet to freeze people in blocks of ice.

[Timetoread]

I feel the need to point out that Jon has never fed a potentially innocent man to Ghost, nor did he kill Ygritte's father and force her into a marriage with him. Most of the Dany dislike comes from the situations where she acts decisively and as if the facts don't matter when they do. This goes back to her sealing Doreah in the vault with Daxos, and I defended that decision.

Dany probably does have a good enough heart, but she did make very imperious speeches about being the rightful queen and how she'd burn Qarth to a cinder. She also double-crossed a guy for being sexist and then set him on fire. Jon has yet to freeze people in blocks of ice.

 

What innocent men were you watching?  She killed the men she did for being unrepentant slavers.  The men who kidnapped and castrated the thousands of men she now has an army.   How many died at their hands?  Jon doesn't have the ability to freeze people in ice.  He has indeed had Ghost carryout some dirty work and his brother Rob, who really was a leader, had his wolf kill for him regularly.  RIP Grey Wind.  Gone but not forogtten.  But this is what I mean - her every move is scrutinized, whereas we only get Jon's greatest hits.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Timetoread

[ulkis]

I feel the need to point out that Jon has never fed a potentially innocent man to Ghost, nor did he kill Ygritte's father and force her into a marriage with him. Most of the Dany dislike comes from the situations where she acts decisively and as if the facts don't matter when they do.

It's not that I dislike Dany per se, she is fine herself, I just don't really care about her storyline because it was so disconnected from everything else. I know Jon's story is the same but to a lesser extent. He was connected to other major characters, that I want him to meet up with again. Dany, I don't really care who she meets up with in Westeros. So maybe also a bit of the dislike/ambiguousness comes from that.

That's a large reason why I found all of his season 2 scenes boring, he was just off by himself and random wildings. If he hadn't come back to Castle black I would have been as neutral on his story as I have been with Dany's.

[CeeBeeGee]

Most of the Dany dislike comes from the situations where she acts decisively and as if the facts don't matter when they do. This goes back to her sealing Doreah in the vault with Daxos, and I defended that decision.

Dany probably does have a good enough heart, but she did make very imperious speeches about being the rightful queen and how she'd burn Qarth to a cinder. She also double-crossed a guy for being sexist and then set him on fire. Jon has yet to freeze people in blocks of ice.

 

Doreah betrayed Dany, why would she not punish her?

 

Stannis, Renly and Joffrey also made imperious speeches about being the rightful rulers. That goes with the territory. She's not campaigning for President, she's claiming the Iron Throne--part of getting the throne when you're not on it is convincing others to support you.

[SimoneS]

I shake my head at how all the crimes of the people that Dany killed are suddenly ignored. For goodness sake, Doreah betrayed Dany causing the death of several of her men and conspiring to steal her dragons. The Sons of the Harpies murdered innocent people as well as the Unsullied and killed Ser Bannistan. Yet someone having one of the wealthy families behind the Sons of the Harpies eaten and imprisoning Hiz is worse. 

 

I am becoming more and more convinced that at the core of whole lot of people's dislike of Dany is that she is woman in power having to make tough decisions. She has done nothing that deserves the relentless (and sometimes wacky) criticism that she receives.

Edited June 8, 2015 by SimoneS

[Sakura12]

The only potentially innocent person Dany killed was that man she pushed in front of her dragons. The rest betrayed her or went around her back to kill another for their own gain. 

[iMonrey]

I know this is just a show and these are just actors playing roles, but listening to Shireen scream for her father was just difficult to bear. Probably because after a season of Outlander I've sort of maxed out my torture porn limit, but as much as I enjoyed the dragon rescue scene at the end I don't think I could sit through this episode a second time.

 

You know, the actress who played Shireen never had to do much heavy lifting on this show. She was serviceable in the part and likeable enough but I never really expected her horrible death to affect me that much. I guess she made more of an impression on me than I gave her credit for.

 

 

He's Meryn Trant. He killed Syrio Forel, Arya's water dancing master.

 

Not for nothing but we never actually saw Trant killy Syrio, if memory serves. I know it's a foregone conclusion that he probably did but that happened off-screen and even Arya can't know for sure.

 

And part of the problem with this storyline is, I have to wonder how many fans know who the heck Meryn Trant even is. I think you probably have to be a pretty hard-core book fan, or really intense show watcher to keep track of some of these minor characters. That's why Arya's storyline right now lacks impact, for me.

 

 

Of course it was Selyse who broke first. For all her big talk and harsh treatment, she still loves her only child to survive toddlerhood.

 

I think that's devoutly to be wished. We want to believe all mothers love their children but I just never saw any evidence of that with Selyse. I think at best she can be accused of having an attack of conscious there at the end. Burning little girls at the stake is hard to justify no matter how hard you try to spin it. Doesn't mean she had some sudden epiphany about the love she felt for her daughter. Just means that even she, awful though she is, couldn't go through with it.

[ulkis]

 I am becoming more and more convinced that at the core of whole lot of people's dislike of Dany is that she is woman in power having to make tough decisions. She has done nothing that deserves the relentless unwarranted and sometimes wacky criticism that she receives.

I do think that is a part of it, definitely. But I also do think a part of it is her general story isolation, like I said. If she were in Westeros mixing it up with other characters I think she'd get more slack.

[DigitalCount]

I shake my head at how all the crimes of the people that Dany killed are suddenly ignored. For goodness sake, Doreah betrayed Dany causing the death of several of her men and conspiring to steal her dragons. The Sons of the Harpies murdered innocent people as well as the Unsullied and killed Ser Bannistan. Yet someone having one of the wealthy families behind the Sons of the Harpies eaten and imprisoning Hiz is worse.

I am becoming more and more convinced that at the core of whole lot of people's dislike of Dany is that she is woman in power having to make tough decisions. She has done nothing that deserves the relentless (and sometimes wacky) criticism that she receives.

Doreah may have betrayed Dany. As far as she (not to mention the audience) knows, Doreah was or just as easily could have been pressed into service by Daxos. At the time I argued that Doreah seemed to be asking for mercy and that she was scared rather than happy, heavily implying her guilt. But it is interesting to note that Dany never once asks the woman she's about to stick in a dark hole to dehydrate if she committed any crimes or if this huge, powerful man may have coerced her somehow. Edited June 8, 2015 by DigitalCount

[Dobian]

There is no "moral" of the tale. It is a Game of Thrones in a brutal world where good and bad people die indiscriminately.

 

This is the show's great strength and great weakness.  It's a fun show from a voyeuristic standpoint, but the whole tone of the show is so dark and joyless, and with very few people to really root for.  Does it even matter who wins the Iron Throne?  People will still be flayed, broiled, beheaded, and mutilated while the key players continue to jockey for position.  The whole world of Game of Thrones is by-and-large a miserable place.  An interesting place, but a miserable one.

[DigitalCount]

What innocent men were you watching? She killed the men she did for being unrepentant slavers. The men who kidnapped and castrated the thousands of men she now has an army. How many died at their hands? Jon doesn't have the ability to freeze people in ice. He has indeed had Ghost carryout some dirty work and his brother Rob, who really was a leader, had his wolf kill for him regularly. RIP Grey Wind. Gone but not forogtten. But this is what I mean - her every move is scrutinized, whereas we only get Jon's greatest hits.

But she didn't. She killed the bald guy for maybe being a Son of the Harpy. If the argument is that she should have executed them all anyway on moral grounds--which I disagree with anyway--there are certain concessions one must make. Execution doesn't mean torture to death, it just means put to death. Just because someone is sentenced to death, it doesn't mean you can just toy around with them for the sake of an object lesson.

The man was not necessarily guilty of the crime for which he was executed. Even now, people are saying Hizdahr might have been or was probably the Harpy with no evidence of such whatsoever; that's a sign of willingness to cut Dany slack, not the opposite.

[Chris24601]

I feel the need to point out that Jon has never fed a potentially innocent man to Ghost, nor did he kill Ygritte's father and force her into a marriage with him. Most of the Dany dislike comes from the situations where she acts decisively and as if the facts don't matter when they do. This goes back to her sealing Doreah in the vault with Daxos, and I defended that decision.

Dany probably does have a good enough heart, but she did make very imperious speeches about being the rightful queen and how she'd burn Qarth to a cinder. She also double-crossed a guy for being sexist and then set him on fire. Jon has yet to freeze people in blocks of ice.

Exactly. I was mainly responding to the claim that the reason Jon gets slack and not Dany is some sort of latent mysogeny when its not... Jon gets slack because he's not making imperious speeches about his right to lead the Night's Watch or demanding his defeated foes bend the knee to him on pain of being fed to a dire wolf. In fact, if anything I think Dany gets more slack for some of her imperious bad calls than a man would pulling the same things.

 

Imagine if Sam had been murdered in the night by members of the Watch unhappy with Jon's decisions and Jon's reaction was to line up a bunch of other members of the Watch at random and then throw one of them he'd never even met before to Ghost to be eaten alive in front of the rest. Would we be talking about how awesomely badass he was for pulling that or would we putting him in the same category as Stannis, Roose and Ramsey as a complete monster?

 

Note too that Dany has a bit of Stannis' black-and-white mentality and not in a good way. When Jorah returned after his banishment with Tyrion she looked at the situation as if her only options for Jorah were complete forgiveness or throwing him to the dragons and it took Tyrion to suggest a third option that still enforced her strength but showed mercy. That's the sort of inflexibility that doesn't earn near as much slack from the audience as when Jon goes to his ostensible enemy Tormund, removes his chains and says "you and yours don't have to kneel to me or anyone, just help me save your people and help me fight the real enemy when it comes."

 

And again that's all I'm talking about... not who is the more effective leader (overall I'd give that to Dany currently simply because she has managed more people), just why Jon tends to get less criticism over his leadership by the audience than Dany tends to get. I'll also point out that in seasons one and two where Dany didn't have dragons that could immolate her enemies and an army of (at the time) unbeatable Unsullied at her beck and call she got a lot MORE slack than she does currently and I think a part of it is that somewhere in early season three she stopped having to fight for her own victories the way she did early on because of her hypercompetent underlings. Season Three was basically her marching across slavers bay from seemingly easy victory to easy victory.

 

Jon being basically the Night Watch's best fighter meant he was always struggling on the front line and in danger of instant death... throw in that his enemies are both shown to be generally as or more competent than the majority of the Night's Watch and vastly outnumbering them and it just feels like Jon is working harder for his victories (that always seem to come at a price... until Selmy's death when was the last time Dany lost anything of significance to her?). That earns more slack from most people... due to their respective setups and actions, not, I believe, out of some latent mysogeny in the audience.

[Timetoread]

I think that's devoutly to be wished. We want to believe all mothers love their children but I just never saw any evidence of that with Selyse. I think at best she can be accused of having an attack of conscious there at the end. Burning little girls at the stake is hard to justify no matter how hard you try to spin it. Doesn't mean she had some sudden epiphany about the love she felt for her daughter. Just means that even she, awful though she is, couldn't go through with it.

I definitely hear you that the world needs to wake up to the fact that not all mothers are loving. However I want to point out here that one can love and not be "loving". I think Selyse had a serious inferiority complex of having failed a great man by not producing any living heirs to take over his kingdom. The one successful child that she had was disfigured. Being that there continues to be societies today that kill baby girls, I can see that happening. She was never kind to Shereen, she was never thankful for her. But Shereen WAS her child. I don't know how much I'd bet on maternal instinct (most kids that are murdered are murdered by their parents - specifically their mothers), but it is a fact that a crying baby can make a lactating mother produce milk and that an animal mother (and humans are animals) can distinguish the cry of her own child from others. It is true that many parents experience "psychic" connections with their children and experience physical pain when even an adult child is in distress or has been injured many miles away. I say all this to say that I found it plausible and poignant that when her child screamed to her in anguish, Selyse "felt it".  For all of her denial and refusal born out of pride and idolatry, her child's pain affected her physically. She may have not been okay with Shereen but she was not okay with someone KILLING Shereen.

[Dobian]

Exactly. I was mainly responding to the claim that the reason Jon gets slack and not Dany is some sort of latent mysogeny when its not... Jon gets slack because he's not making imperious speeches about his right to lead the Night's Watch or demanding his defeated foes bend the knee to him on pain of being fed to a dire wolf. In fact, if anything I think Dany gets more slack for some of her imperious bad calls than a man would pulling the same things.

 

Imagine if Sam had been murdered in the night by members of the Watch unhappy with Jon's decisions and Jon's reaction was to line up a bunch of other members of the Watch at random and then throw one of them he'd never even met before to Ghost to be eaten alive in front of the rest. Would we be talking about how awesomely badass he was for pulling that or would we putting him in the same category as Stannis, Roose and Ramsey as a complete monster?

 

Note too that Dany has a bit of Stannis' black-and-white mentality and not in a good way. When Jorah returned after his banishment with Tyrion she looked at the situation as if her only options for Jorah were complete forgiveness or throwing him to the dragons and it took Tyrion to suggest a third option that still enforced her strength but showed mercy. That's the sort of inflexibility that doesn't earn near as much slack from the audience as when Jon goes to his ostensible enemy Tormund, removes his chains and says "you and yours don't have to kneel to me or anyone, just help me save your people and help me fight the real enemy when it comes."

 

And again that's all I'm talking about... not who is the more effective leader (overall I'd give that to Dany currently simply because she has managed more people), just why Jon tends to get less criticism over his leadership by the audience than Dany tends to get. I'll also point out that in seasons one and two where Dany didn't have dragons that could immolate her enemies and an army of (at the time) unbeatable Unsullied at her beck and call she got a lot MORE slack than she does currently and I think a part of it is that somewhere in early season three she stopped having to fight for her own victories the way she did early on because of her hypercompetent underlings. Season Three was basically her marching across slavers bay from seemingly easy victory to easy victory.

 

Jon being basically the Night Watch's best fighter meant he was always struggling on the front line and in danger of instant death... throw in that his enemies are both shown to be generally as or more competent than the majority of the Night's Watch and vastly outnumbering them and it just feels like Jon is working harder for his victories (that always seem to come at a price... until Selmy's death when was the last time Dany lost anything of significance to her?). That earns more slack from most people... due to their respective setups and actions, not, I believe, out of some latent mysogeny in the audience.

 

Dany's problems have a lot to do with the writing, and it is a problem that a lot of female characters in power have had on other shows over the years.  They tend to be written as bitchy, or scheming,  or spiteful, or imperious, or mother hen, or dominatrix.  You rarely ever see one who is actually wise and intelligent and benevolent.  So if there is misogyny, maybe it's on the part of the writers of these shows, who tend to write female power characters with these stereotypes.  Hopefully Dany will grow as a leader with Tyrion's help and become a great one.

[korilian]

I'm gutted about Shireen, but at the same time it was a really powefull scene. Fuck Stannis though. That guy doesn't even know how utterly expendable he is (since he's so clearly NOT the chosen one). He might get his horrible GOT death, or he might have to live actually with what he did, which might be a crueler fate. <br /><br />Was anyone else kind of anoyed with the Dany dragon scene? I'd been looking forward to Dany showing Drogon who's boss all season. This was just weak.<br /><br />I'm also really not looking forward to the inevitable scene where Arya has to play child prostitute to murder sir gross. Seriously, is there anyone who wants to see that?!? Can we just not?

[RadiantAerynSun]

The death of Shireen reminds me of an episode of Babylon 5 back in the 90s when an extremely religious alien couple killed their child for religious reasons (they believed he had been rendered impure and demonic due to an unauthorized, but life-saving, surgical procedure that a well-meaning doctor performed on him behind their back against their explicit wishes). I remember sitting there in disbelief, slack-jawed that "right" did not triumph and the crazy religious zealots killed their own child for stupid, superstitious reasons (from my POV). Back then I consumed a lot of Star Trek and bad stuff like that just didn't happen on my TV. Similarly I thought someone was going to burst in and stop Shireen (Davos, or Stannis himself) right up til the end.

[Chris24601]

I'm gutted about Shireen, but at the same time it was a really powefull scene. Fuck Stannis though. That guy doesn't even know how utterly expendable he is (since he's so clearly NOT the chosen one). He might get his horrible GOT death, or he might have to live actually with what he did, which might be a crueler fate.

I'm torn on this, but I am leaning towards having to live in abject failure, knowing that every atrocity he committed, every life spent up to and including his own loving daughter, was ultimately for nothing. Let him lose everything, but then deny him the mercy of death and let him linger on for decades with the constant reminder that, in years to come, the storybooks read by innocent little girls will include Stannis Kinslayer as a VILLAIN who burned his own little girl alive for the false promise of power... and let him WEEP.

 

THAT might just about be justice.

[bbolto]

It's like the theory that Ros was hated

 

WHO HATED ROS I will fight you

 

Ros is like #3 on the list of Game Of Thrones deaths I'm still mad about. Shireen has not displaced her, because Shireen's death was fooooooooorrreshadowed for like seasons on end. Ros was just starting to get somewhere!

 

(Lady is, obviously, #1.)

 

Oh as as far as "moral of the story" goes I think of Game Of Thrones as an Extreme Soap Opera where instead of oh no! Cliff slept with Cheryl, that skank! it's oh no! Stannis had his own brother stabbed by a magical ghost man! I am certainly not one of those who thinks the show has big lessons to teach us about much of anything.

[taanja]

That was cool! Dany flies the dragon!

I don't give a crap about that little girl (Shireen?) I mean I never bothered to really learn her name. I am not a book reader but I bet next ep we find the little darlin' doesn't burn-- just like Dany didn't burn. She's part dragon after all with the grey-scale and all. No worries. The annoying character will be back.

Ahhh Jorah saves the day. Or at least prevents Dany from getting a spear in her face!

Oh Arya! You are not no one! You are still Arya Stark with a vendetta. You go girl!

[beeble]

This is what should have happened at the Shireen-Sacrifice:

 

Soldier 1: "I'm dead hungry."

Soldier 2: "They're about to take care of that now. Look."

Soldier 1: "That's Shireen - is she gonna cook for us?"

Soldier 2: "Not exactly. She's gonna be cooked."

Soldier 1: "Oy! That's only a little girl! There ain't enough of her for all us to eat!"

Soldier 2: "No, Mate, they're making a sacrifice. Appease the God and we'll get food. And we'll get enough strength to win this war."

Soldier 1: "We'll get all of that for sacrificing one little girl?"

Soldier 2: "Supposedly. Or maybe it was just the battle we win."

Soldier 1: "Seems like kind of an important distinction."

Soldier 2: "Look, I thought you were hungry. Now you're getting sort nit-picky."

Soldier 1: "If she's enough to win us the war that's one thing. But just a battle? Who's sacrificed next?"

Soldier 2: "I dunno. The queen?"

Soldier 1: "Doubtful. You don't sacrifice queens in Westeros."

Soldier 2: "Well I've never seen the likes of this before." 

Soldier 1: "My point is that Princess Shireen is young and innocent. That queen ain't so young. And as for innocent, I'm the one who had to stay and guard supplies while the rest of you visited the brothel."

Soldier 2: "So?"

Soldier 1: "For fuck's sake dude, I'm bloody next! I'm the only young and innocent one left!"

Soldier 2: "I could be wrong about this only being for the battle. It could be for the whole war."

Soldier 1: "Could you please check on that?" 

Edited June 8, 2015 by beeble

[penelope79]

Preach. It. I think Emilia is fantastic as Dany--she's the only cast member besides Dinklage who's been nominated for an Emmy, IIRC (of course they are all fantastic, I have NO idea why Michelle Fairley didn't get a nom for The Rains of Castamere)--and yes, she's making mistakes in good faith, not just blundering around or acting almost criminally stupidly a la Cersei. And oh my Lord is Missandei gorgeous! I'll have to rewatch to see Tyrion check her out.

Lena Headey has been nominated for an Emmy too, last year. I still don't know how is even possible that Michelle Fairley didn't get one for the Red Wedding.

  

I cringed when it looked like Dany's dragon might be killed.  I have a thing for majestic beasts.

Hagrid... is that you?? ;)

[Dobian]

 

Hagrid... is that you?? ;)

 

Buckbeak!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Cersei would not kill her children. She LOVES her children if she loves anyone so for Stannis to be WORSE than Cersei... that says a lot.

She was willing to kill Tommen at the Battle of Blackwater. Those were totally different circumstances than Stannis sacrificing Shireen but technically Cersei was about to kill her own son until Tywin burst in.

[Dobian]

I don't give a crap about that little girl (Shireen?) I mean I never bothered to really learn her name. I am not a book reader but I bet next ep we find the little darlin' doesn't burn-- just like Dany didn't burn. She's part dragon after all with the grey-scale and all. No worries. The annoying character will be back.

 

 

Oh she burned alright, those screams were blood-curdling.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Dobian

[Hecate7]

I think they've been respectful at times, but every time I see that gif of Ramsay eating a sausage and smirking and it being used as great comic relief in fandom, I'm reminded that they did try to have it both ways. 

 

They had two women basically force Theon into being aroused right before Ramsay castrated him. 

 

That's horrible but it's not rape. Theon didn't mind being aroused--it's what Ramsey did, and the fact that the girls knew what he was going to do, that makes it horrible. 

 

Rape is not arousal. Rape is the forcible penetration of one person by another, even if an inanimate object is used. There have been two threats of rape on the show, to men. The first was when someone threatened to rape Jaime with his own severed hand. The second was when Ramsey had his own man attempt to rape Theon, so that he could "save" Theon from him, earning his trust. The man yelled "you little bastard" as he died, because no doubt he had orders to rape Theon and was just carrying them out. Neither of these is particularly funny to anybody except the one making the threat. That is how that sort of thing is done, and so it would be weird and unrealistic not to portray the ridicule that generally accompanies this kind of threat. That doesn't mean the audience is supposed to join in, or think it's funny. We're supposed to be a bit horrified.

[Hecate7]

Dany's problems have a lot to do with the writing, and it is a problem that a lot of female characters in power have had on other shows over the years.  They tend to be written as bitchy, or scheming,  or spiteful, or imperious, or mother hen, or dominatrix.  You rarely ever see one who is actually wise and intelligent and benevolent.  So if there is misogyny, maybe it's on the part of the writers of these shows, who tend to write female power characters with these stereotypes.  Hopefully Dany will grow as a leader with Tyrion's help and become a great one.

I hate to say it, but I think Tyrion may be in over his head here. Dany seems to be teetering into madness.