S05.E09: The Dance of Dragons

[Brn2bwild]

Shireen was your heir, Stannis you idiot. She was also the last Baratheon after you. Heck of a dynasty you are fighting for! 

 

I have enjoyed Tyrion actually being with Dany in Mareen (and skipping on the crap with the Penny and the pig). I liked is reactions to 1) Drogon and 2) the first Targaryan dragon rider in over 100 years. 

 

I'm sure he'll just find his wife impure and have her burned, then marry a younger one who can give her sons.  Surely she must have realized this was a possibility after he burnt his only daughter to death.

[bbolto]

Damn and they didn't even get anything concrete out of that sacrifice did they? No shadow babies? I'd want the damn Lord Of Light incarnate to walk out the gates of Winterfell personally singing a pretty song and juggling Bolton heads for that ugly business.

 

I liked the ending; Dany's retinue was pretty much "ooh awesome" so now I'm imagining them turning to each other after the credits going "wait we're screwed aren't we"

[blixie]

 

Just when you thought the Boltons were the worst, the Baratheons pull ahead.

 

Seriously Roose is all I may have broken the rule of hospitality, and raised up a my sociopathic son, but I didn't murder my brother and burn a  child of my body alive, you depraved fuck.

[WatchrTina]

Well at least the show didn't go where I was afraid it was going.  I was afraid the brothel didn't have anyone young enough and Arya was going to volunteer so that she could kill him.

 

Which could totally still happen (he said "bring me a fresh one tomorrow night.")

[screamin]

One thing that kind of bothered me was HOW MANY Harpies were in the stadium, as compared to the discreet poisoning in the books. The Harpies are supposed to be a minority of guerrillas, not a majority large enough to fill a stadium.

[bookrat]

Couldn't it be that Shireen  won't actually die? They didn't show her die. I am wondering if she might be like Dany and can't die by fire.

[Black Knight]

Sort of an important difference that she and Melisandre are at Castle Black, not with Stannis.  So Selyse makes the choice, and she's fundamentally in thrall to Melisandre who will do anything for Azor Ahai, who she's starting to think is Jon...

Since it hasn't happened in the books yet, we don't know just how it comes about. But I personally always expected it to be Stannis. As you say, right now the positioning of the characters in the books is different, but that doesn't mean it won't be Stannis in the books. In the next book, Mel could take Shireen and go to Stannis's camp and convince him that Shireen has to die. Just because Selyse and Shireen are currently away from Stannis doesn't mean that it's going to be Selyse's choice only.

[trif]

Do you have a time stamp cause I'm watching now and didn't catch it.  I assume it it's the inside the episode

 

56:54 on the HBO Now feed where it auto-plays their commentary at the end.

[WatchrTina]

bookrat I just tweeted that I hope the fire weaponized her grayscale so that the smoke with kill both Stannis' and Bolton's army.  But I like your idea better.  It would be so cool if her grayscale gives her some heretofore unknown power that saves her.

 

But it ain't likely.

[enlightenedbum]

Since it hasn't happened in the books yet, we don't know just how it comes about. But I personally always expected it to be Stannis. As you say, right now the positioning of the characters in the books is different, but that doesn't mean it won't be Stannis in the books. In the next book, Mel could take Shireen and go to Stannis's camp and convince him that Shireen has to die. Just because Selyse and Shireen are currently away from Stannis doesn't mean that it's going to be Selyse's choice only.

 

Mostly I'm saying Melisandre believes she has an immediate need of a miracle.

[Paradigm14]

I kept hoping Selyse would jump in the fire with her.

[InsertWordHere]

Another thought just occurred to me. Next week there could be a Stannis vs Bolton showdown. While I love how the books are very grey vs gray, how am I supposed to pick a side on THAT battle now?

 

Brienne. 

 

That's who I'm rooting for anyway. I no longer care if she leaves Sansa to go kill Stannis either. Get him, Brienne! Do it for Renly and that poor girl.

[benteen]

That was a fucking awful episode.  That is the paradox of D&D.  A week after they delivered one of the best episodes of the entire series, they respond with this steaming pile of shit, which makes the character assassination of Stannis Baratheon complete.

 

You cannot convince me that D&D and Cogman don’t DESPISE Stannis.  In the books, Stannis is not always an easy character to like.  The man has a rigid, black and white sense of justice.  But he’s an incredibly compelling figure who ultimately decided to defend the Realm by going to the Wall.  But the show has consistently sought to portray this complicated character as little more than a one-dimensional villain, used as a sock puppet by Melisandre.  On the show, Stannis only goes to the Wall because Melisandre decides he should go.  They have completely wrecked the Stannis character to create more controversy for the sake of controversy.  If they had stuck to the books, I’m sure Stannis’s end would have been a lot better than what they’re going for.  But apparently, for Brienne to have her revenge, Stannis has to be the ultimate villain.  To a degree, it’s just like how they made Tyrion and Shae’s relationship more loving only to have her betray him so Tyrion could justifiably kill her.  Way to go, fellas   Now there’s literally no one to root for at the Battle of Winterfell.

 

The awesome Northern storyline from ADWD has been botched by D&D, who have only shown investment and excitement in the one part of that storyline where a girl gets raped.  And you want to know why this show gets a bad reputation for stuff like that.

 

Speaking of trainwrecks, there’s the entire Dorne storyline.  The writers should be absolutely embarrassed over the story they wasted their actors on this season.  Seriously, explain to me how this was much better than Jaime’s Riverlands storyline?

 

The scene at the Wall was a waste, with Jon refusing to tell the Watch to stop being assholes and more Olly glaring and anvil droppings.  Though I think that was nicest thing Thorne has ever said to Jon.

 

The last 15 minutes was excellent.  It was great seeing Jorah back at Dany’s side and I like TV Daario much better than his book counterpart.  I was really surprised by Hizdhar’s death.  That guy seems like he was nothing but an unfortunate victim on this show.  Dany flying off on Drogon was pretty awesome.

 

ADDITION:  So GRRM told D&D that Shireen dies by fire?  Still some awful writing all around and if that's the case, that includes GRRM.

Edited June 8, 2015 by benteen

[SeanC]

Seriously Roose is all I may have broken the rule of hospitality, and raised up a my sociopathic son, but I didn't murder my brother and burn a  child of my body alive, you depraved fuck.

The daughter is inexcusable, but the brother was trying to kill him.

[enlightenedbum]

bookrat I just tweeted that I hope the fire weaponized her grayscale so that the smoke with kill both Stannis' and Bolton's army.  But I like your idea better.  It would be so cool if her grayscale gives her some heretofore unknown power that saves her.

 

But it ain't likely.

Mel is obsessed (in the books, not in the show) with waking the stone dragon.  And the various Targaryens must have had some basis for the we can become dragons thing, right?

 

Probably not.

[Funzlerks]

Having the burning done at Castle Black is also different because of the presence of Stannis's troops. Why would they follow a man they just not only witnessed kinslaying, but killing his cute, beloved dragon face daughter who looked at him and begged him to save her? I would hold him down while Ramsay and Roose tagteam flayed him.

I have a speculation now that Sansa will end up married or engaged to Stannis. He needs an heir, his wife isn't a "true believer", and Sansa is the key to the North and he needs that.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Funzlerks

[MarquisDeCarabas]

56:54 on the HBO Now feed where it auto-plays their commentary at the end.

I'm in canada the only way i see any of this stuff is youtube any chance you can give me a general idea what was said before that?

[WearyTraveler]

I thought Drogon took care of mot of the Harpies, so, Dany leaving didn't feel like she was abandoning her friends to an awful fate.  I think the ones that remained at the pit had more than a fighting chance after Drogon burned Harpies left and right.

 

Also, the Harpies freak me the fuck out.  I think one of the best costume choices, and a grossly unappreciated one too, is the Harpies' masks.  They are as chilling as the White Walkers.

Edited June 8, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[AuntTora]

I know!!! When he held his hand out to Dany, I yelled, "DON'T TOUCH HIM!!!" at the TV.

 

Me too. Then I yelled, "He touched her!"

[Tippi]

Wonder how Jon's big event is going to happen?  Is there anyone else with king's blood that she whose name I don't even want to use anymore can burn?

[benteen]

The daughter is inexcusable, but the brother was trying to kill him.

 

That is true.

 

Not only is it inexcusable but stupid.  Stannis killed off his only living heir and it's not like Selyse and Melisandre were giving him heirs.

 

How his soldiers continue to fight for Stannis is beyond me.  Though given their situation, starving to death with nowhere to go by Winterfell, they really don't have a choice but to follow him.  His leadership is their best chance at survival.  Would love if they all turned against him after a victory at Winterfell.

[Ambrosefolly]

Having the burning done at Castle Black is also different because of the presence of Stannis's troops. Why would they follow a man they just not only witnessed kinslaying, but killing his cute, beloved dragon face daughter who looked at him and begged him to save her? I would hold him down while Ramsay and Roose tagteam flayed him.

I have a speculation now that Sansa will end up married or engaged to Stannis. He needs an heir, his wife isn't a "true believer", and Sansa is the key to the North and he needs that.

I am all for Stannis at the very least not getting what he wants, but I still don't want the punishment coming from Ramsey or Roose. It isn't like they would have treated Shireen any better. It is the same situation as it is with Theon. Sure you want Theon on punished for the horrible things he did, but Ramsey/Roose are still just as bad or worse. Let Brienne finally get a win and take out Ramsey, Roose and Stannis. 

[JennyMominFL]

I think I'm the only one who would like to see Dany just die. I think she's terrible.  She and Stanis can both just go

[InsertWordHere]

Hey Dany, how about you call out and reach for Drogon after he's done burning all the men piercing him with spears? Way to endanger your savior there.

[Stardancer Supreme]

 

You can't burn an adorable child to death at the half hour mark and then expect people to pay attention to the rest of the episode.

 

This. right. here.   They should have had Dany escaping the Harpies with Drogon in the middle of the episode and then showed Shireen meeting her end.  Credits.  Multitudes of GOT viewers in fetal positions on floors.    Just like the previous Episode 9s.

[kieyra]

Hmm. Had a hard time enjoying most of this, especially after last week.

The pedophilia was beyond unnecessary.

Was super confused about why Dany, who stood out like a shiny beacon in that crowd, was able to just dither around on the dais for so long while she and her closest friends all conveniently escaped injury. If there was a pause necessary for a story beat, somehow the attackers all had business elsewhere.

And good god she looked so unqueenly running through the arena, and climbing onto Drogon. I noticed Emilia Clarke seemed a little physically ... dorky ... In the red nose YouTube video, but I thought it was intentional and for comedic purposes. This could be nitpicky of me, but it was jarring and took me out of the whole Drogon spectacle. (Also, where was she supposed to sit? Because ouch, those spikes.)

Dialogue was painfully perfunctory and on the nose tonight. Someone phoned it in.

[FormerMod-a1]

I think the Harpys were killing indiscriminately to get to Dany, but were focused on her once they had her surrounded on the arena floor.  I also think the Harpys were really after Dany so the others would be safer now.

[WearyTraveler]

I think in the books, Stannis might send Melissandre a raven, letting her know that the situation has reached a point where he believes nothing but burning Shireen will do.  That little girl's screams were heart breaking.

[HeySandyStrange]

I have a speculation now that Sansa will end up married or engaged to Stannis. He needs an heir, his wife isn't a "true believer", and Sansa is the key to the North and he needs that.

 

 

I could see this. I suspect, after dealing with the psycho manipulators Ramsey, Joffery, and LF ol' fuddy duddy Stannis would be a cake walk for Sansa.  Which I'll bet his main redhead Mel won't like. Maybe while Brienne is exacting her revenge Sansa can help out by pushing Mel into a fire.

[Pogojoco]

I'm trying to see if I can care less about Dorne, but I don't think it's possible.  Waste of time and space. I love Jamie and Bronn, but jeez. Myrcella is also a waste of time. 

 

I'm not sure about Arya's story just yet, but I love her costume in Braavos. And of course, Meryn Trant likes little girls, because in an episode where a little girl is barbequed, the show needs to once again illustrate that it sucks to be female. Because we are that thick. 

 

Last episode was one of the best of the entire series, but overall I think this season has been kind of a letdown. Dany flying off on her dragon was nice, though. 

 

I'm also thinking it might be a little bit of a problem that Tormund is the only named Wildling (not counting the giant.) 

[kieyra]

There is no way that the first scene of Dany flying Drogon could go anywhere but at the end of an episode. A better solution to the Shireen problem may have been to put that scene at the beginning of the next episode instead. The pacing of this episode in general was terrible.

[Oscirus]

So depending on how fast that stuff transmits. Jorah gave grayscale to Dany who then possibly unknowingly gave it to her translator who could have given it to Dario but he was wearing gloves so he might be alright.

[trif]

I'm in canada the only way i see any of this stuff is youtube any chance you can give me a general idea what was said before that?

 

First there's some talk about religious fanatacism and what happens if you're wrong with a choice like that? Then Benioff says it's the hardest choice Stannis has had to make, ambition vs. family love, and Stannis chooses ambition. Then he says that when George first told them about this, he was like, "That's so horrible, but also so good from a story perspective" and he talks about how the Stannis character has been building to this from the beginning.

[Funzlerks]

I feel like although the Sons of the Harpy possess the fighting technique of 1970s Ninja movie assassins - outnumber the elite superfighters twenty to one then attack one at a time - it was the height of stupidity to quit fighting Daenerys's most loyal lieutenants after she flew away. Stopping because Daenerys left makes no sense because they wish to cripple her rule, not just kill her. But it is still just great that Danaerys gets saved by her magic dragons because she was so very, very sad at the thought of dying. What a hero!

Edited June 8, 2015 by Funzlerks

[MarquisDeCarabas]

First there's some talk about religious fanatacism and what happens if you're wrong with a choice like that? Then Benioff says it's the hardest choice Stannis has had to make, ambition vs. family love, and Stannis chooses ambition. Then he says that when George first told them about this, he was like, "That's so horrible, but also so good from a story perspective" and he talks about how the Stannis character has been building to this from the beginning.

Thanks you know listening to that and reading the Recap at EW makes me feel like this isn't a total character assassination.

[benteen]

The Meryn Trant likes little girls storyline basically comes from the Mercy chapter where Dunsen (it's Dunsen, right?) only follows Arya because he wants to have sex with her.  Not to defend D&D but the genesis of that scene comes from GRRM's writing.

 

Stannis wants to rule the Seven Kingdoms because of DUTY, not ambition.  Not that D&D could ever figure out anything when it comes to Stannis.

Edited June 8, 2015 by benteen

[screamin]

(Also, where was she supposed to sit? Because ouch, those spikes.)

 

 

God, yes. All I could think of in that scene was that there was NO safe place for her crotch.  :P

[elzin]

When Arya was in the brothel, was one of the ladies called "Inara"?  Because that's just not even cool. Don't mess with Firefly, D&D.

 

I could have heard it wrong, but that's what it sounded like to me. If it was I'm sure they thought it was some clever shout out but I'm not crazy enough about their treatment of sex workers to be amused.

[WearyTraveler]

Stannis wants to rule the Seven Kingdoms because of DUTY, not ambition.  Not that D&D could ever figure out anything when it comes to Stannis.

 

The weird thing is that it appears he's doing out of duty when he's talking to Shireen before he hands her over to Mel.

[Philbert]

 

Doran. UM? um? WTF is going on with Doran? Are you going to bother writing a coherent storyline for that place?

 

Why should they? Martin certainly hasn't...

[apollonia666]

I'm trying to remember which wrist Jorah's grayscale was on, and which one he took Dany's hand with.  I *think* they were different hands, and isn't it the actual grayscale itself you have to touch to catch it?  

 

Shireen's fate was utterly gutwrenching -- those screams sent chills up my spine. I wonder how they work with a child actor for a scene like that to make sure she's okay.  I wasn't so shocked that Selyse lost her shit, after seeing that badass Wildling fall apart at the sight of the child wights last week.  I suspect Benioff and Weiss have some mommy issues. 

 

Also can't get that flaming horse out of my head.  And Jorah throwing that spear like a boss.  And Doran offering Bronn soup.  

[snowblossom2]

Why should they? Martin certainly hasn't...

I guess I'm one of the few people who liked the adorned storyline in the books. I liked seeing a more egalitarian rule and loved the Queenmaking plot (in theory, Darkstar was awful) and the long game Doran is playing. But on TV? Awful. One of the biggest missteps IMO of a great show. I mean, come on, that fight sequence was ridiculous - 3 sand snakes being matched by one swordsman and a one handed Jamie?

[Winnief]

Well that seals it.  Stannis and his army and Ramsay and the Bolton forces can all slaughter each other far as I'm concerned.

 

Just let Sansa, Brienne, Pod, and all those other people at Winters Town escape the horror. 

 

Can't deny they did a good job with the Pit scene.  And Tyrion/Hizdar was actually pretty good while it lasted.

 

Dorne wasn't good but not quite as annoying as usual-I do like Doran. 

 

So now the body count for characters introduced in past seasons, (this is not counting all the nameless extras or people we just met this season,) stands at seven; Mance Raydar, Janos Slynt, Ser Barristan, Aemon, Rattleshirt, Hizdar, and Shireen.  (sob.)  I have a strong suspicion it will be at least ten by the we see the end credits for the season finale...And I mean deaths of characters who *stay* dead. 

[nksarmi]

The Meryn Trant likes little girls storyline basically comes from the Mercy chapter where Dunsen (it's Dunsen, right?) only follows Arya because he wants to have sex with her.  Not to defend D&D but the genesis of that scene comes from GRRM's writing.

 

Stannis wants to rule the Seven Kingdoms because of DUTY, not ambition.  Not that D&D could ever figure out anything when it comes to Stannis.

You know, that is how Stannis was portrayed for a long time.  But I don't think that is the end game for his character, because ultimately, he has no reason to continue if it's just the belief that Geoffrey and later Tommen are not the rightful kings.  Because frankly, by many people's standards his brother wasn't the rightful king either.  So when the choice is be king or burn your only daughter, you know what? There is a girl in Meereen whose claim to the Iron Throne is better than yours and you know there is an Army of the Dead heading to the Wall.  If you care about the realm, stay at the Wall and fight the only battle that matters and send word that you will back Dany if she decides to take the throne.  Oh yea, and send some men by boat to gather some dragon glass.  It's more important than fighting Boltons at Winterfell.  I never liked Stannis in the books and the show won me over just to yank the rug out from under me. Damn it.

 

No Stannis has a serious case of middle child syndrome.  He admits he didn't love either of his brothers and he only did what Robert asked because he was his older brother and king.  And Stannis killed Renly because Renly was trying to take away something that belonged to him.  This whole quest for the Iron Throne has become about outdoing his brothers.  If D&D are telling the truth and this happens in the books, Stannis is not a duty-bound, honorable man, but a shallow, petty asshole who somehow managed to be the worst of his brothers.

[mac123x]

The two important scenes have been covered already, so I'll only mention

 

1) I said "oh shit" when Shireen was playing with her toy stag and a burning brazier was directly behind it in the shot.  Pretty unsubtle camera work, to be honest.

 

2) Did anyone get an Attack of the Clones flashback when the protagonists were surrounded in the pit and Drogon comes flying to the rescue?  Not exactly the best movie to do an homage of.

 

Well at least the show didn't go where I was afraid it was going.  I was afraid the brothel didn't have anyone young enough and Arya was going to volunteer so that she could kill him.

 

Which could totally still happen (he said "bring me a fresh one tomorrow night.")

 

Totally set that up, Arya pretends to be one of the underage brothel workers and kills him.

 

When Arya went back to the House of B&W, I couldn't tell if Jaquen could tell she was lying to him or not about the Thin Man not being hungry.  He kind of gave her a look but I couldn't tell.  They sure did waste a lot of time with Arya following Mace / Meryn around all day.

 

Speaking of wastes of time:  the Dorne plot.  Ellaria was all over the map, I couldn't figure out what the fuck was going on with that.  And Doran, what the hell are you doing?  Friendly sit-down with M&T and Ellaria, then have her arrested and threatened to die so she caves.  Unless there's some scene next week with Doran and Tristane where he reveals that he's not the utter Lannister toady he appears to be, then I'll consider his character completely assassinated from the books' version.

[Funzlerks]

Stannis doesn't think Daenerys's claim is better than his. Her family was deposed, overthrown, and she was exiled.

[GreyBunny]

Stannis Baratheon, you are no longer The King Who Cared, you are now The King Who Sucks Worse Than Any Human Being Ever. I hope Davos does to you what Ramsay does to just about everyone, if Ramsay doesn't get to you first.

[TwistedandBored]

Seriously, WTF is going on in Dorne? I don't remember it being this boring in the books. Is it because they added Jaime to it or what?

[nksarmi]

Stannis doesn't think Daenerys's claim is better than his. Her family was deposed, overthrown, and she was exiled.

I know he doesn't think that, but shit, he just sacrificed his only child and heir to back his "claim."  I'm just saying if he were the loving father he claimed to be, he'd starting thinking, "You know Robert was a traitor to begin with and while we have a little Targ blood in us, maybe there is someone else I can back so my daughter can live."

 

My point is that Stannis has crossed the line from trying to take the throne away from an incest-made bastard to being as crazy as half the other players in this damn game.  At this point, I don't care if Dany DOES burn everything between Winterfell and Dorne as I love the Starks and Dorne does seem like the only place where they don't hurt little girls.

[Knuckles]

Arya will be the fresh girl tomorrow, I'm betting. A Man might not like it, but Arya is still a Stark first, an apprentice assassin second. Whether poison or Needle, makes no difference to me...though it would be nice if he suffered, and better if he finally recognized Arya before he dies. 

 

The difference between Jon and Dany seems clear...when the wights were breaking down the wall at Hardhome, Jon rallied and rushed to the wildlings' defense. Danny summoned Drogon, and hopped aboard, leaving her crew somewhat stranded. And yes, Dany does need to rethink her strategies, but burning the rest of the Harpies before blowing town might have been the more responsible act.

 

Calling the bankers a bunch of gamblers did not sit well with the Iron Bank...but they met Mace at the pier, and walked him thru the city.  Since they have already backed Stannis, I guess they are covering the spread by lending to House Tyrell as well. And yes he does look like the Mayor of Munchkinland.