S05.E08: Hardhome

[Avaleigh]

It would be nice if we could get some dialogue from the White Walkers even if it's only a word or two. I just want to know what the ice language sounds like. 

 

I wish somebody would tell Dany why Jaime killed her father. 

 

I can't say I'm all that interested in Arya's storyline. I know I'm going to skip her scenes when I watch the episode again.

[kieyra]

I don't post much, but jfc that was good. I don't have a good attention span for epic battle sequences (except Blackwater) AND I dislike zombie stories, but even I was 100% riveted.

Loved wilding lady, knew she was doomed. I guess I have to give them props, though, because making you love a character in time to kill her in the same episode does take a bit of skill and very good casting.

And I must also give the show props for making me believe GRRM *had* an end game in mind rather than just planning on writing sideways forever. I see a lot of you had put the pieces together better than I ever did, but by the end of whatever book I gave up on (circa where do the whores go) it felt like a hopeless pointless muddle.

Edited June 1, 2015 by kieyra

[benteen]

I enjoyed Tormund's comment that Jon is "prettier than my daughters."  NEED MORE TORMUND HUMOR, SHOW!

[Avaleigh]

I liked Tormund ridding us of the Lord of Bones so quickly.

[magdalene]

It feels exciting as hell that I can no longer predict all of what the next episode may bring. At the same time it's satisfying that some of the stuff we long foresaw/predicted is happening. And that it's all building to the finale.

[kieyra]

There were some points where I had to cover my eyes because I knew at least one of: wildling lady, Tormund, Jon, or the grouchy giant were going down and I wanted no part of it.

[ihartcoffee]

They are setting up to go out with a bang with danys dragons. They like to end seasons that way. And I love the scene in the books with Drogon and the fight pit. Who knows if it will be in there, but they are foreshadowing something.

I'm bored of the Sam and Gilly story.

[Knuckles]

Since I was swept away by the battle, I forgot some important details. The Sparrow is going for incest...among other charges such as regicide and treason. But the incest takes the throne from Tommen...which will be news to him if he ever leaves his room. Cersei seemed too numbed to take it all in...Kevan may have abandoned her, but will he let Tommen be kicked to the curb? With Jamie in Dorne, not the Riverlands, is the Lannister army still at Riverrun, with the Frey army? 

And, I am loving old Ramsay and his 20 men idea...good, head out into the snow. Die there. Suits me, and probably Roose as well. And holy crap, as the Boltons and Stannis fight over Winterfell, the army of the dead is marching. Roose thinks he can hold out for 6 months against Stannis...wait till the Walkers and the wights show up. 

[SilverShadow]

Since I was swept away by the battle, I forgot some important details. The Sparrow is going for incest...among other charges such as regicide and treason. But the incest takes the throne from Tommen...which will be news to him if he ever leaves his room. Cersei seemed too numbed to take it all in...Kevan may have abandoned her, but will he let Tommen be kicked to the curb? With Jamie in Dorne, not the Riverlands, is the Lannister army still at Riverrun, with the Frey army? 

And, I am loving old Ramsay and his 20 men idea...good, head out into the snow. Die there. Suits me, and probably Roose as well. And holy crap, as the Boltons and Stannis fight over Winterfell, the army of the dead is marching. Roose thinks he can hold out for 6 months against Stannis...wait till the Walkers and the wights show up. 

 

I think the Incest charge is Lancel only. They have no proof she was screwing Jaime and I doubt she told Lancel. The rumors are out and about, but if they leave it at Lancel, Tommen keeps the throne.

[FemmyV]

That was full of awesome! Although I take it as a given that Cersei will eventually bounce back, for now it's gratifying to see her brought down a notch or three.

Dany + the Imp = win win win! I love how they played off of each other, pretending they weren't trying to impress, and the surprise of seeing both think of themselves as their families' black sheep.

Sansa's test: if she can refrain from making her new knowledge re: Rickon & Bran known to Ramsey, it may be evidence she's finally wising up. Not taking bets.

Hardhome: dang. Still absorbing that.

[Matt K]

I enjoyed the episode, especially Hardhome but Arya's plot seems to be so superfluous.  I like the character but really what's the point here.  Kind of hoping that was the end for the season for her unless they somehow ties things back to the main story because otherwise what's the point.

[MadMouse]

The first half of the episode was kinda of meh. Wish we would have gotten Brienne and Pod doing anything instead of Sansa/ Reek. Guess Ramsay will get to show off his amazing fighting skills again when his twenty men wreck the most seasoned battle commander in Westeros. Wonder if he'll be shirtless again to maximize his badass. Good work Sam for giving Black Arrow his justification and nice foreshadowing with Jon always comes back.

 

Now the Hardhome scenes were great, though the skeletons still look cheesy. Kit Harrington is becoming the stand out on the show. These last two seasons he's been killing it. Its a shame the writing for him in the earlier seasons was so terrible. Can't believe we got Wun Wun of all the characters to show up he was probably lowest on my list. The wildling woman was awesome and I kept crossing my fingers she's say her name was Val, blonde hair be damned. She was a great actress that made me care about a character who was on screen for about fifteen minutes in total. Bravo. A little speculation one or both of her daughters will magically age up in between seasons. I was actually worried that Edd had died and was ready to flip a table. Even better he won't be one of the Ides conspirators, he's seen the WW twice now. Logically he should be backing what Jon did more than anyone in the NW now. 

 

Did anyone else think the hooded person in the boat at the end was going to do something? 

[benteen]

I think the Incest charge is Lancel only. They have no proof she was screwing Jaime and I doubt she told Lancel. The rumors are out and about, but if they leave it at Lancel, Tommen keeps the throne.

 

Would cousin-fucking be considered incest on Show Westeros?  In the books, marriages between first cousins are common.  Tywin and Joanna are first cousins and The World of Ice and Fire revealed that Ned's parents were cousins.  The show has never really mentioned if that's considered to be normal.

[Tippi]

Jon, you're so brave.  Your parents would be so proud!

[Pogojoco]

Cersei in prison is kind of funny. I really enjoyed her trying to buy off the septa- traditional Lannister move. 

 

Yay Sansa and Theon! 

 

Dany and Tyrion together, talking, is one change from the book that I can 100% get behind. Also, "You are the only one left of your bloodline." 

 

Tormund negotiating is the greatest thing ever. "He's prettier than both my daughters..."

 

I'm sad the wilding warrior woman ate it. I was hoping she'd be a Val substitute. (I like Val's chillness and her subtle humour.) 

 

I just wish the White Walkers were slightly more afraid of the fire. The dragons would be just that much more effective. The White Walkers do make the rest of the story basically pointless, though. 

Edited June 1, 2015 by Pogojoco

[WatchrTina]

 

Would cousin-fucking be considered incest on Show Westeros?  In the books, marriages between first cousins are common.  Tywin and Joanna are first cousins and The World of Ice and Fire revealed that Ned's parents were cousins.

I agree that cousin-fucking would not be considered incest -- just fornication and adultery. .  So if the High Sparrow is accusing Cersie of incest that is huge.  It might also be enough to bring Uncle Kevan to her aid since it challenges Tommen's right to the throne and Lannisters are all about propping up the family.

 

 

I'm sad the wilding warrior woman ate it. I was hoping she'd be a Val substitute.

She was terrific.  I wonder if she'll reappear as a featured wight?

Edited June 1, 2015 by WatchrTina

[benteen]

Fun fact, the Night's King is played by Richard Brake.  He played Joe Chill in Batman Begins.

[elzin]

I was going in with a healthy amount of dread. The non-Hardhome stuff was not very compelling and confusing and somewhat nonsensical. Where were the Martells and the remnants of the Arryns in Tyrion's list of the Houses of Westeros? I don't think he mentioned the Tullys, plus there are non-Lord families with a shit ton of money and power, plus the recent upjumped Boltons, Baelish, etc.  And I really HATED how he said he trusted Jaime. I don't need the darkest Tyrion that was in the books, but it bugs me still they ended so nicely and the hatred is reversed, that Jaime now hates T instead of T hating J.

 

And all the nuance of  books can't make the show, but AngryGOTFan pointed out that all that chit chatting Tyrion did with Dany misses its mark with book readers because he didn't even ask to see the dragons. TYRION.  The only other person who obsesses dragons more is Bran, right?  Well, Quentyn...

 

So a lot of the first half was hard to reconcile, but it wasn't outright vile. 

 

I was expecting to hate every second of Hardhome part, but I loved it. It too misses the mark on some consistency issues (where was the fire that would destroy the wights? Why are the wights different from the first few we saw?), but it was done so well I could get past it easily and just lose myself in the story. I'm not a big fan of battles, but it was done really well if it sucked me in so much. I was scared and shocked and in awe.  The only thing that would have made it better was a shadowy glimpse of an ice spider.

 

It was overall like two episodes, but I'm happy not to be seething with righteous indignation at least one time this season. 

[Brn2bwild]

Thought this episode was great for the most part.  Loved Dany and Tyrion's conversation, though it surprised me that Dany would accept Tyrion so quickly, to the extent that she even followed his advice in dismissing Jorah.  Jorah was the most loyal person to her still living; how did she know Tyrion wasn't setting up a trap?

 

[mac123x]

That was pretty amazing.  Most people have covered it so I'll just point out a couple of things:

 

1, Qyburn:  "The work continues".  Has to mean Frankengregor, right?

 

2.  Lena Heady's scene with Septon Ratchet belongs on her Emmy nomination roll.  That was fantastic.

 

3.  The final faceoff between the Head White Walker and Jon-on-a-boat, the whole time I was thinking "this is amazing, but why aren't they getting further away from shore?"  Then they cut to a wide shot and the oarsman had shipped their oars.  WTF, if it were me, I'd be rowing that boat so hard I'd get a hernia.  I guess they did it for the sake of drama.

 

4.  No rapes or attempted rapes or hinted at rapes!  That's a +1.

[SeanC]

Thought this episode was great for the most part.  Loved Dany and Tyrion's conversation, though it surprised me that Dany would accept Tyrion so quickly, to the extent that she even followed his advice in dismissing Jorah.  Jorah was the most loyal person to her still living; how did she know Tyrion wasn't setting up a trap?

Dany already seemed totally disinclined to have Jorah around.  Tyrion just told her more or less what she wanted to hear (and supplied her with a rationale for not killing him).

[benteen]

Tyrion has seen a dragon on this show already.

 

I sure hope Sam wasn't dumb enough to give Jon all the dragonglass.

 

I'm getting a good laugh out of some of the comments in reviews about what Jorah did tonight.

 

"Live by the friend zone.  Die by the friend zone."

 

"Jorah is turning to stone and has the heart of a stalker."

[nksarmi]

Thought this episode was great for the most part.  Loved Dany and Tyrion's conversation, though it surprised me that Dany would accept Tyrion so quickly, to the extent that she even followed his advice in dismissing Jorah.  Jorah was the most loyal person to her still living; how did she know Tyrion wasn't setting up a trap?

I think Tyrion won her the moment he told her that he wasn't sure she was worth following.  It seems like he is the first person ever who has looked at Dany and asked outloud "Does she have what it takes to rule?" - a question we know she has asked herself many times over.  Her won her by making himself someone that Dany wants to prove herself to - someone who could represent how all of Westerous could feel about her.

[WatchrTina]

 

AngryGOTFan pointed out that all that chit chatting Tyrion did with Dany misses its mark with book readers because he didn't even ask to see the dragons. TYRION.

Well, in fairness Tyrion at this point is not altogether certain that he's going to be allowed to live so, . . priorities.

[elzin]

Tyrion has seen a dragon on this show already.

That's right. I totally forgot.  All of the other issues in the previous episodes creates blind spots in my memories, I guess. :)

[dbell1]

I wonder if Olli will bond with dead Wilding woman's daughters when they get to the Wall? Might take the blade out of his hand?

Kind of glad Tryion didn't ask to see the dragons. Guess he had a heads up that she uses them for frying enemies/getting rid of unsuccessful job applicants. He's already seen Drogon out there.

And speccing the ending, 3 dragons, ridden by Dany, Jon, and Tryion swoop in to save the world. Ser Jorah can watch from the friend zone.

Favorite CGI moment was Jon splitting a wight in half as he went running for dragon glass.

ETA, Stannis mentioned to Jon that Dragonstone has tons of dragon glass. He can call the local BJ's for a bulk shipment.

Edited June 1, 2015 by dbell1

[benteen]

That's right. I totally forgot.  All of the other issues in the previous episodes creates blind spots in my memories, I guess. :)

 

Definitely fair enough.  I had to think back too when this point was brought up.  Hopefully we'll get some additional dialogue between them about the dragons in the next episode.

[jeansheridan]

That Septa jailer is worse than Nurse Ratched.

 

AA = Azor Ahai the guy Melisandre is always babbling about.

Thank you!  I don't think there's a need to be obscure on this thread.  I liked the battle scene except ...RUN JON!  Seriously, who stares at a pile of killer zombies dropping from the cliff and just stands there watching?  And ROW JON.  We were all yelling about rowing that damn boat a tad bit faster, thank you very much.

 

So I have a show geography question now.  Why can't they just go around the wall on the ocean?  There's a Nightwatcher Castle on the shore there, presumable to make sure large raiding parties don't get through without some sort of notice.  And I'm assuming the wildings never had great ship building abilities because they never seemed all that concerned about a coastal attack from them. 

 

But it looks like the wildings still need to go through Castle Black to get to the promised land?  And didn't Stannis get on the wilding side of the wall via the water?  He didn't go through Castle Black as far as we know.  Oh well, that's next week then.

 

Overall a great and unexpected battle.  And yeah, that wilding mother was awesome and way to use three minutes of screen time to make an impression.  That's charisma. 

 

On Lannister news, I'm glad Cersei hasn't broken yet, but I can see why she would confess faster if she's seriously getting no water.  She at least got fed in the books.  It was uncomfortable as hell, but they fed her once she stopped screaming at them.  Not giving her water is straight up torture.  And this is how the show makes Cersei sympathetic again.  Who wouldn't root for her over that stone faced nun?  And I'm proud of her for licking up the muddy water.  Stay alive.  That's the first rule.  Stay alive.  As Jaime said, he sat in his own shit for a year.  Cersei is made of the same stuff.  I love it.  Not the humiliation, but that she can survive this test.  I think it's interesting that she asks for Jaime and her son, obviously looking for a rescue.  She will have to rescue herself.  It just pisses me off how she has to do it. 

 

And come to think of it, I like in the books how Dany survives being in the wildness with her dragon.  She's burnt and hungry and has no idea of how to get back to civilization, but she's pushing through. 

 

The Dany and Tyrion scenes were interesting.  She seemed much more mature and guarded as she should be.  He came off a bit grandiose with just a hint of whine to him.  But I think and hope he is just testing her.  I like she doesn't find him funny at all.  Women really don't get his humor, do they?  Has any woman really understood him on this show?  Even the Queen of Thorns found him tedious and dull.

[mac123x]

Tyrion probably did ask, off screen, to see the dragons, and Dany had to tell him no.  "We're already way over the CGI budget this week with the final battle, sorry." 

 

I did get a kick out of how quicky Dany noticed that Tyrion is a drunk.  "Advise me" [snatches his wine goblet] "While you can still form complete sentences."

[Pogojoco]

I agree a little bit re. Tyrion not asking about the dragons. 

 

But he's playing it cool. He can't ask about the dragons right away- it'd be like finally getting a date with someone you really like and ruining it by asking for sex immediately. 

[Minneapple]

No joke, winter is finally fucking here.

 

4.  No rapes or attempted rapes or hinted at rapes!  That's a +1.

 

This episode reminded me how good this show can be. You know, when there are no rapes going on.

 

Most of all I love the little hints that all the theories about the books are coming true.

[Pete Martell]

I thought the episode was painfully boring. I don't give a shit about the Night's Watch scenes or the White Walkers.

I watch this show for the awesome political drama and great complex characters like Tyrion, Jaime, Cersei and so on. Not stupid CGI zombie battles. Ugh.

 

I think most of Jaime's complexity died on the sept floor. 

 

The Wall and Jon are two of the main reasons I watch, but I've become so apathetic that I didn't have much of a reaction.

 

What old friend did Sansa confront?

[HeySandyStrange]

 

3.  The final faceoff between the Head White Walker and Jon-on-a-boat, the whole time I was thinking "this is amazing, but why aren't they getting further away from shore?"  Then they cut to a wide shot and the oarsman had shipped their oars.  WTF, if it were me, I'd be rowing that boat so hard I'd get a hernia.  I guess they did it for the sake of drama.

 

I know right? I was thinking the same thing. Personally, I would have tried to lasso the giant, who was hauling ass faster across the freezing channel then most of the boats.  Or I'd be rowing so fast I'd have been halfway to Mereen, but I guess watching the Night's King display of total badassery was more important to the Jon and the others.

[SeanC]

The Wall plotline has consistently, by a country mile, been the best material in this season, and that continued here.  My only niggle was the bit with Wildling Lady and the kids, because I guess her uterus was triggered and caused her to become ineffective against them.  Strong scenery and action, good character stuff for Jon.

 

The brief Cersei scenes were nicely done, and I loved having her lick at the water on the floor while "The Rains of Castamere" plays.

 

I know there are a number of Arya fans who have been vocally disappointed both with her episode/screentime count so far this season, and the way the story has been told.  Up until this point I thought they were overstating things, but at this point I have to say:  this storyline is really boring, and this episode in particular had an outright baffling dramatic structure.  The episode ends with a somber note about whether Arya can successfully kill this guy, but the preceding sequence just laid out plain as day that it should be easy.  Is it meant to be a moral question instead?  Because the episode really didn't raise that idea either.

 

I liked the Sansa scene on its own, though having watched the Inside the Episode video I find D&D's interpretation of where this fits into her arc kind of baffling, in terms of how they've been telling this story.  They say that the news about her brothers' survival is a total game-changer for her worldview, and comes at a time when she's in desperate need of hope and motivation -- but the Sansa we already met in that scene is the most ferocious we've seen her since she came to Winterfell already.  If this is meant to be her lowest moment, she should be more like in her first scene last week; between the following scene of her trolling Ramsay and the start of this scene it already feels like she's rebounding.

 

And this is how the show makes Cersei sympathetic again.  Who wouldn't root for her over that stone faced nun?  

I wouldn't.  As far as I know, that stone-faced nun isn't an unrepentant murderer and instigator of a war that has killed untold thousands.  Cersei is only here because she tried to (and did) do the same thing to Margaery.  That's called delicious karma.

[Pogojoco]

 

What old friend did Sansa confront?

Theon. It was a pretty big step from him this week- he mentioned Robb by name, he said "I betrayed Robb" and admitted the little boys are alive. 

[Pete Martell]

 Wish we would have gotten Brienne and Pod doing anything instead of Sansa/ Reek. 

 

I think they reached their quota of Brienne telling Pod he sucks ass and pouting on the ground.

Theon. It was a pretty big step from him this week- he mentioned Robb by name, he said "I betrayed Robb" and admitted the little boys are alive. 

 

Thanks.

 

When was he ever her friend?

 

I know they have to be vague with the writeups, but it makes me wonder if D&D read those fan fictions where Theon is Robb's dorky stoner friend who is secretly in love with him, and the whole family puts up with him because Robb adores him so.

[jjjmoss]

Eh, I'm not really into battle scenes or war whatevers, so that sequence was lost on me.

 

Loved Queen Sansa's 2.5 minute scene, and her predecessor Cersei's suffering, though. 

[mac123x]

Jon Snow: "We'll give the fuckers a fight!"  I believe that's the first time Jon has cursed on screen.

[Pete Martell]

I liked the Sansa scene on its own, though having watched the Inside the Episode video I find D&D's interpretation of where this fits into her arc kind of baffling, in terms of how they've been telling this story.  They say that the news about her brothers' survival is a total game-changer for her worldview, and comes at a time when she's in desperate need of hope and motivation -- but the Sansa we already met in that scene is the most ferocious we've seen her since she came to Winterfell already.  If this is meant to be her lowest moment, she should be more like in her first scene last week; between the following scene of her trolling Ramsay and the start of this scene it already feels like she's rebounding.

 

It's similar to how they keep saying Needle represents rage to Arya, even as many fans tend to see Needle as a cool toy for her and see her as a bad-ass action figure. Their ideas rarely translate, although I do think they're trying to sell Sansa as being empowered by rape. I think that's likely another reason, beyond viewers not knowing her, that this story doesn't have Jeyne - no one can say anything that happened to her was any type of "strength."

Jon Snow: "We'll give the fuckers a fight!"  I believe that's the first time Jon has cursed on screen.

 

I think he did once last season, although I might be wrong.

[Pogojoco]

 

 

Thanks.

 

When was he ever her friend?

 

I know they have to be vague with the writeups, but it makes me wonder if D&D read those fan fictions where Theon is Robb's dorky stoner friend who is secretly in love with him, and the whole family puts up with him because Robb adores him so.

I think it means he's like a family friend....maybe. But he was definitely Robb's friend, not Sansa's. He's much older than Robb and Jon in the book (I think he's 19 or 20 to Robb's 14) so their dynamic is a bit different- Jon always disliked him. Theon also thought Ned might've married him off to Sansa in the book- which I was reminded of when this new show thing happened. 

 

Also, Sophie Turner towering over every guy she interacts with is becoming kind of funny. 

 

On vagueness- the writeup hilariously has "Jon travels." 

[magdalene]

Who was that actor who played the Wildling woman warrior? That was an amazing performance. 15 minutes on air and I came to care for her. Her face still haunts me when she was looking at the children wights.

[WatchrTina]

According to IMDb the Wildling Chieftainess was played by Birgitte Hjorth Sorensen.  She's from Denmank and OMG she's in Pitch Perfect 2.  Now that's what I call range.

Edited June 1, 2015 by WatchrTina

[rollacoaster]

All that crazy, over the top CGI battle action put me in the mind of some kind of barbarian zombie video game!  I was exhausted by the time it was over.  Tonight was the first time that my friend that I watch with and I didn't really discuss the episode after.  We were totally gobsmacked.

[GreyBunny]

The Hardhome zombie apocalypse - YES!

[MadMouse]

Who was that actor who played the Wildling woman warrior? That was an amazing performance. 15 minutes on air and I came to care for her. Her face still haunts me when she was looking at the children wights.

 

Funny thing is she had more character development in those fifteen minutes than most of the main characters combined this season.

[J----av]

I think most of Jaime's complexity died on the sept floor. 

 

The Wall and Jon are two of the main reasons I watch, but I've become so apathetic that I didn't have much of a reaction.

 

What old friend did Sansa confront?

Theon

[InsertWordHere]

 

When was he ever her friend?

 

I know they have to be vague with the writeups, but it makes me wonder if D&D read those fan fictions where Theon is Robb's dorky stoner friend who is secretly in love with him, and the whole family puts up with him because Robb adores him so.

In their defense, I believe it's HBO's promotional department that writes up those summaries, not anyone from GoT. 

 

However, this is the second episode this season where they've referred to Theon as being a brother/ like a brother to Starks who weren't Robb and I don't get that at all. Theon never considered Sansa a sister, he even entertained thoughts of marrying her. I don't recall him ever thinking that Rickon and Bran were his brothers either, but Sansa said it this episode. She elaborated by saying he knew them since they were born and I agree with that, but they're overdoing this adopted brother relationship. Weird that this bothers me, because I wasn't bothered when he said, "My real father lost his head in King's Landing" a couple seasons ago.

Edited June 1, 2015 by InsertWordHere

[rollacoaster]

Anybody else think that after tonight's episode there's no more money for special effects for what's left of the season?

[Andromeda]

I remember Cersei being punished for having lovers. So I'm a little confused if they're saying now that all Cersei has to do is own up to her sins, because the charges are huge -- including murdering a sitting king. I can't imagine a nudey parade will be enough punishment for those crimes.

 

ADORED Dany and Tyrion together -- I want them in a spin-off -- The Essos dragon team. 

 

Loved the white walkers, that was some awesome action. I had to go look up Hardhome -- I recall it from the books as a place where Wildings retreated and starved, but I know I didn't read that scene! Well done, show!

Edited June 1, 2015 by Andromeda

[GreyBunny]

When the head white walker raised his arms I was on the edge of my seat nervous because thought dead things were going to rise out of the water.

 

Is it just me, or did anyone else look through the horde of undead thinking, "Okay, which one is Benjen..."

 

The wildling chieftain - they introduce a promising badass female character and they kill her off.  Bummer.

 

Ramsay and his 20 good men, now I'm worried for Stannis.

 

Dany and Tyrion was even more fun than I expected.  Poor Jorah.  Poor, poor Jorah.

 

this is the second episode this season where they've referred to Theon as being a brother/ like a brother to Starks who were't Robb and I don't get that at all.

 

I don't get it either.  Ned may have been "nice" to Theon but Theon was still his prisoner.  Had Balon acted up Ned would have cut Theon's head off.  He owed none of the Starks any loyalty.

Edited June 1, 2015 by GreyBunny