S05.E05: Kill The Boy

[wayne67]

I was wondering about that too. I would be willing to believe that the greyscale had to touch someone's bare skin in order to infect them if not for the story about Shereen getting it from a doll.

 

Baby Shereen may have been licking or pressing that doll against her face for long periods of time. Children aren't overly hygienic. I'm going with the headcanon that it's unlikely to be transmitted through contact with physical objects as that'd make it super easy to transmit with medieval era understanding of germs/cleanliness.

 

Stannis may have figured the one new thing in Shereen's life was the cause of the baby's illness as she had no other contact with obviously infected people but who knows.

[Holmbo]

I was wondering about that too. I would be willing to believe that the greyscale had to touch someone's bare skin in order to infect them if not for the story about Shereen getting it from a doll.

I think since the characters don't know about germs it could be understandable that they think you get grayscale by skin to skin contact. When really it's probably bodily fluids spreading through direct or indirect contact between people. We don't even know if it was actually the doll that have Shireen grayscale. We just know that Stannis think so.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I think since the characters don't know about germs it could be understandable that they think you get grayscale by skin to skin contact. When really it's probably bodily fluids spreading through direct or indirect contact between people. We don't even know if it was actually the doll that have Shireen grayscale. We just know that Stannis think so.

Hee, does this mean one of the stone men licked Jorah's wrist? Because I would pay to see that! I can totally picture him saying, "What the hell, man?" before he ran his sword through him.

[Holmbo]

Hee, does this mean one of the stone men licked Jorah's wrist? Because I would pay to see that! I can totally picture him saying, "What the hell, man?" before he ran his sword through him.

Haha :) I was thinking of it transmitting kinda like ebola which is though bodily fluids. So you can get it through sweat or saliva or blood etc.

[Katalina]

 

I would not say that the Freys are not a loyal ally. It was the Starks who broke the alliance with the Freys when Rob reneged on the marriage.

You're right--I'm being forgetful of important stuff. Yet I see Walder Frey as totally untrustworthy.

 

 

The Boltons and the Freys (most of them at least, and old Walder in particular) need to DIE before this series is done.

Maybe someone could finagle them into battling/destroying each other? But that would mean no being hunted to death for Ramsay, which I enjoy thinking might happen.

[cambridgeguy]

 

It's funny, because my first thought was, "Yeah, good deal," but, when I look at it from his perspective, she's a foreigner who sacked his city, nailed his dad to a post, and burned some guy alive just to make a point. I probably wouldn't want to marry her if I were him -- she'd look just as bad as any of the other rulers on this show. And yet, because she's so pretty, part of me still goes "Score! You got so lucky marrying ths volatile murderess!" Why is that?

If it was the reverse i.e. if Dany were a good looking guy who was forcing a woman to marry him for purely political reasons then I don't think anyone would be saying you lucky woman. 

 

That being said, there's no reason to consummate the marriage.  Who's going to be checking anyway?

[Constantinople]

"Thankfully a suitor is already on his knees." Forcing him to be your consort, great intimidation tactic Dany, I'm sure he really hates having to bow to and have sex with the Mother of Dragons.

I'm not saying that Hizdar is into 50 Shades of Targaryen.

I'm not saying that Yunkai, as former worldwide pillow slave training HQ, had thriving sub-businesses in all the related accoutrements, or that Hizdar, a former ambassador to Yunkai, knows just the place to order a black leather dominatrix outfit of the highest quality for his intended, along with matching thigh high black leather boots and a whip that would make a Sand Snake blush.

I'm just saying every marriage has its own secrets.

[terrymct]

My frustration was more around saying Jon Snow IS a Targarayen. 

 

Every time I read that he's supposed to be one, I think about all that black hair he has.  They've made a big deal about hair color in the main families.  Jon doesn't have that white hair.  He looks more like a Baratheon.

[DigitalCount]

It's funny, because my first thought was, "Yeah, good deal," but, when I look at it from his perspective, she's a foreigner who sacked his city, nailed his dad to a post, and burned some guy alive just to make a point. I probably wouldn't want to marry her if I were him -- she'd look just as bad as any of the other rulers on this show. And yet, because she's so pretty, part of me still goes "Score! You got so lucky marrying ths volatile murderess!" Why is that?

Well, she's female, but we also see her perspective more. I mean, we also get to see Joffrey's perspective and Ramsey's now, but not to the degree of Dany's. In truth, Hiz is in a position like Sansa's: marrying the person who executed his father, when mercy was counseled and under dubious authority, after being physically and emotionally tortured because the leader (who has ordered mass killings already) fears that they may lose their tenuous grip on the throne.

Is Dany a villain now?

[insubordination]

 

This is the only land I know of that has multiple varieties of zombie.

 

It's a bit much for me adding the stone people. I felt the same about the odd creatures when Bran was near a tree or something. I'm glad his plot has been dropped for a while. I don't mind dragons, but I want fewer supernatural beings on the show.  Maybe the dragons can 'flambe' the various zombies in short measure.

 

I guess Sansa is destined to sit at tables with gloating males who are responsible for murdering her family. At least she knows their ilk now. Is it so far-fetched that Sansa might be the hero of this story rather than Arya or Jon?  I just want a Stark to come out on top, but I'm sure they'll all be parted from their heads sooner or later. At least Robb got a smidgeon of happiness first.

 

I really wonder whether there will be a worthy king or queen in the end or whether it will be just random endless suffering and death. It's supposed to be fiction/fantasy - not real-life.

 

I often speculate about Jon's parentage. Maybe there's a bit of Taygaryen in there and Daenerys is not as alone in the world as claimed.  I can't take her new husband seriously (though I got perverse enjoyment from the proposal 'cos I have double standards) because I've been watching a British comedy show called 'Plebs' on occasion and that guy plays the lead.

 

Jorah was looking fine tonight. He wears greyscale well.

 

No more Bolton sex scenes please - ever!  And I mean any Bolton. I did for some reason enjoy the story of Ramsay's conception though. The telling was so flippant. I bet Ramsay will save that story for his spank bank along with the thoughts of his father's bride.

 

Grey Worm's dialogue was so romantic. It was too pure for this show.

Edited May 12, 2015 by insubordination

[One Tough Cookie]

I think Sansa is going to snap and kill Ramsey.  I know I would!

[Conan Troutman]

I didn't think Sansa going into the dog cages was unforgivably stupid, it was in the middle of the castle, there were other people milling about.   

 

At first I was really worried Myranda was simply going to feed her to the dogs... But you're right, she couldn't do that. Even if nobody saw it and she somehow managed to make it look like an accident, she'd still be made responsible for not locking the doors properly and probably be flayed alive, whether the Boltons think she did it on purpose or not wouldn't be really relevant.

 

 

I was relieved that the "entertainment" to which Myranda invited Sansa was not as vicious as I'd initially feared. I also wondered, if Sansa ever does decide she's in enough peril to warrant the candle-in-tower maneuver, how she's supposed to be able to execute it, since the top of the ruined tower is a rather far piece from her living quarters, and I can't imagine either Bolton just letting her wander around free.

 

Oh I think the Boltons are going to do exactly that - at least inside the castle walls. And IIRC from the pilot, that tower is inside the castle walls. Sansa may still be somewhat of a prisoner, but she'll also be the future Mrs. Bolton and Littlefinger probably told Roose that she might not like the deal, but for a lack of options is willing, however reluctantly, to go along with it - which isn't even that far from the truth, expect for the part where Stannis is expected to come in play. So there's really no good reason to lock her in a cell. She might not be allowed to go outside of Winterfell, as she might flee to a Stark loyalist, but I got the impression that she could walk freely inside the castle walls. Plus, she's been to the crypt, to the kennels and to the tower already, so that's supporting this.

 

I also guess that whoever came up with that plan would've given that some thought, so I assume that if getting to and in the tower would likely present a problem, a different plan would've been hatched.

 

I would only think he'd pull that if Roose was already dead.

 

I wouldn't be too surprised if Ramsey came to the conclusion that it might be better for his chances of inheritance if daddy were to have a little accident... Also that little screening of "How I Raped Your Mother" might not have been the best idea ever if he's supposed to like his dad. Would be a nice parallel to Tywin - his demise was being a shitty father and raising pretty fucked up children, and the Lannister kids are relatively sane and stable compared to the little psycho Ramsey. So yeah, I'm totally on board the "Ramsey for patricide" wagon.

 

 

For the canle -- this plan actually makes sense to me. I don't think it's intended for an immediate emergency, like calling 911; I think it's more like, if Sansa feels like things are going downhill and she needs an exit strategy, then the candle in the abandoned tower signals to Brienne that it's time to intervene (even though she doesn't know it's Brienne who's watching for the signal). The last time Brienne talked to Sansa, Sansa seemed to think she had the situation under control, so this actually makes sense to me as a way of signalling, at a distance, that things are no longer under control. It does depend on Sansa knowing which way's up, and not being taken by surprise, but I think she can probably do that.

 

That's my impression, too - it's not supposed to help her once Ramsey's chasing after her with a knife in his hand, but to provide an escape route to avoid exactly that scenario in the first place.

 

 

Back to Myranda: I'm curious what her plan is. Is she just jealous and trying to play off Sansa against Ramsey, raise a bit of chaos Littlefinger-style and see what happens? Could be, but I got the impression by the look on her face at the end of her scene with Ramsey that she might be done with him. So her wrath might be directed mainly at Ramsey for betraying her and she isn't specifically out to get Sansa. Maybe Myranda teams up with Theon, which would tie up another loose end? That would fit in nicely with my Ramsey-offs-Roose theory above: Not Sansa or Brienne or Stannis will be the downfall of House Bolton, but internal backlash from being irredeemable assholes to everyone in their vicinity.

 

ETA: I see another parallel here, this time the Tyrion-Shae-Sansa love/marriage triangle being similar to the Ramsey-Myranda-Sansa triangle. And while Tyrion did his best in trying to explain the situation to Shae, it still led to her betraying him. So I can't imagine a different outcome for Ramsey, who of course didn't go the Tyrion route of compassion and trying to explain, but unsurprisingly chose the rape-and-death-threat solution. I'm not going to say Myranda will sleep with Roose, but she might not react all that differently than Shae, maybe a bit more extreme though.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Conan Troutman

[Conan Troutman]

Is Dany a villain now?

 

I actually think she's being set up to be the big antagonist in the endgame. A sympathetic one, not your classical villain, and probably one with a decent moral compass, but at the end of the day she'll be fighting on the "wrong" side: The fire in A Song of Ice and Fire. The Lord of Light to me seems like the ultimate (d)evil, with the burning people alive as sacrifice thing, the dragons and whatnot. I think Melisandre will eventually ditch Stannis for whatever reason and show up in camp Dany. I also kind of got a temptation of Christ vibe in that scene with Jon Snow last week where she tried to seduce him, probably to make more evil shadow babies. Of course I could be completely wrong here, but I don't think it's unreasonable at all to assume Dany won't be the hero of the story.

[Fen]

I think Sansa is going to snap and kill Ramsey.  I know I would!

 

The look she gave Myranda was complete disdain.  I think she might be an easy practice run for Sansa.  It would probably amuse Ramsey.

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

 

Book readers; we have noticed book information or book info based speculation creeping into these topics which we have removed; if this continues we will have no choice but to bar readers from posting in the No Book Talk topics.

We would really prefer not to do that so please be very careful what you post and where you post it. There should be NO BOOK TALK at all, nada, zip, zilch, in these topics, not even spoiler tagged.

 

Thank you.

[Mz Anthrope]

Complete speculation on my part here but I have been thinking a bit on Jon Snow now being head of the wall... that kind of news is going to get out, I am sure.  Would Brienne risk going up there to deliver the news about Sansa to him privately?  Would Arya hear about Jon as well?  Would she choose to do anything?  

 

Just questions burrowing around in me ol' noggin...

[Conan Troutman]

Complete speculation on my part here but I have been thinking a bit on Jon Snow now being head of the wall... that kind of news is going to get out, I am sure.  Would Brienne risk going up there to deliver the news about Sansa to him privately?  Would Arya hear about Jon as well?  Would she choose to do anything?  

 

Just questions burrowing around in me ol' noggin...

 

Brienne probably wouldn't go herself, in case Sansa does light the candle, but I can totally see her sending Pod. Although she might think the Wall still isn't safe, and she's probably right - Cersei could easily send some men, just like Bolton did with Locke, to the Wall to kill her once word got out, and even as Lord Commander Jon wouldn't be able to do much about something he doesn't know. 

I guess Arya will hear the news eventually, though the Faceless Men don't strike me as the chatty type. But she can't be sweeping the halls there forever, so... I just can't see how that would really change anything. That might make the Wall an even more attractive option to go there and hide (and Cersei probably wouldn't care about her, though Bolton might), but I really don't see that as an narrative option after signing up for assassin school.

[CletusMusashi]

Most people seem to care very little about who's head of the Watch. Look how few rulers even gave a damn about highly respected Watch officers trying to warn them about massive dangers coming down from the north. I really don't think some bastard being in charge of a group nobody cares about is going to be big news.

[Knuckles]

You're right--I'm being forgetful of important stuff. Yet I see Walder Frey as totally untrustworthy.

 

Walder Frey is untrustworthy...recall that Catelyn asked for bread and salt to establish guest right...and was given them. Guest right is a huge deal...and old Walder went right ahead and murdered his guests in his own castle. The Boltons, though traitorous, did not break guest right.

[sacrebleu]

Well, my favorite part of the episode was Stannis correcting the crow's grammar:

 

Crow: less enemies for us to fight

 

Stannis: (under his breath) fewer

 

Davos: What?

 

Stannis: nevermind

 

Oh Stannis, ever the stickler for rules, be they succession or grammar. Never change.

[proserpina65]

Every time I read that he's supposed to be one, I think about all that black hair he has.  They've made a big deal about hair color in the main families.  Jon doesn't have that white hair.  He looks more like a Baratheon.

He looks like a Stark, at least like Ned and Arya.  And the only family for which hair color was a big deal, that I remember from Season 1 anyway, was House Baratheon.  Nothing was specifically mentioned about House Targaryen.

Edited May 12, 2015 by proserpina65

[Elkins]

It means that Jon Snow has to "kill" his inner boy in order to grow up enough to act as an effective Lord Commander.

Right. Because this is Westeros, so simply saying "grow up" wouldn't do, nor even "man up." Oh, no. No no no. You have to frame it as child murder to get anyone to take you seriously in Westeros.

 

 

When Psycho Hobbit told Reek/Theon to kneel, thought a BJ was coming.

And then many, many people confessed to having had the same thought.

I am unspeakably relieved to know that I'm far -- very far -- from the only one whose mind immediately went there! (And yes, LadyS., I think they're doing a fine job of implying off-screen sexual abuse through the performances alone.)

Alfie Allen killed that scene, though. I have no idea why he isn't getting more attention for what he's doing in this role. He has what is probably the toughest acting job on the show, and he delivers each and every time. Has he ever even been nominated for an Emmy?

 

I wasn't even there. I thought Ramsey was going to cut off Theon's fingers or hand.

Or a fingernail, or maybe some skin. Yep.

You know, I hated the Theon torture scenes in season 3. Hated them. I thought they were clumsy and inelegant--and also actually less disturbing than they would have been if left mainly implied and off-screen. But I have to admit that I did finally see them starting to pay off here, because I was cringing in anticipation right along with poor old Reek during that scene. The fact that they'd shown us hand torture in the past made it seem far more likely that they might be about to do it to us again. So...yeah. Okay, Benioff & Weiss. Okay. I begin to see at least some purpose to them now.

(But you still should have had fewer of them. And abandoned that whole "let's make Ramsay's identity a big mystery!" idea. And you should have completely rethought your weirdly adolescent kinky little fantasy concept for the gelding scene, because...yeah, no. Sorry dudes, but that one was just plain embarrassing.)

 

I had the feeling that when Dany went to touch Hizdahr's back, she may have felt something that clued her into him much more.

::gasp::

You think Hizdahr was wearing a wire?!?

 

One thing that was confusing to me was how certain Tyrion was that none of the stone men touched him. Even if they meant on the skin he was draged down by one of them and blacked out. It made me think we were supposed to think he was lying too. But maybe not.

If I were Tyrion in that situation, I would have no faith that Jorah wouldn't simply cut my head off if I admitted to any possibility of being infected. I'd lie my ass off about it, were I in his position. "Nope, none of them touched me, I was conscious the whole time, and I'm absolutely sure of it. 100% positive. Yep."

 

Haha :) I was thinking of it transmitting kinda like ebola which is though bodily fluids. So you can get it through sweat or saliva or blood etc.

I was thinking along the same lines. This gets gross, sorry, but I was thinking that maybe only the completely stoned-over people are likely to infect you with a touch because they have it all over their bodies, and that hard, cracked, scaly skin winds up weeping pus and fluid out of the cracks. Ever had or seen a really nasty case of foot fungus that hasn't had much chance to dry out or heal? Appalachian Trail thru-hikers can wind up with truly horrifying-looking feet if they pick up a fungus and the weather stays wet. Soldiers, too.

 

[Bcharmer]

He looks like a Stark, at least like Ned and Arya.  And the only family for which hair color was a big deal, that I remember from Season 1 anyway, was House Baratheon.  Nothing was specifically mentioned about House Targaryen.

 

I thought it was quite convenient and handy that the families were so color coordinated. Made it much easier for me, especially at first, to know who was who. 

Targaryen = white 

Lannisters = blond (not actually blond, but "yellow of hair")

Baratheons = black

Starks = brown

 

So, to me, anyway, Jon Snow looks like a Baratheon.  I suppose if he were both Baratheon and Targaryen, the black hair would be dominant. I hadn't been giving any thought at all to where he really came from, until this thread, but now I'll be thinking about it a lot, and looking for more clues.  

Edited May 13, 2015 by Bcharmer

[Lady S.]

He looks like a Stark, at least like Ned and Arya.  And the only family for which hair color was a big deal, that I remember from Season 1 anyway, was House Baratheon.  Nothing was specifically mentioned about House Targaryen.

Maybe Sean Bean should have been given a black wig to match MIA Uncle Ben's hair instead of one the color of dirty dishwater, but that would have meant not re-using the bits from the real pilot that used his real hair. The color coordination folks must be seeing a resemblance between Richard Madden's hair and that wig which I never saw. More glaringly, there's Stannis's own blondish daughter and Lord Floppy Fish not having the same red Tully hair as his older sisters, the murdered Alton Lannister looking more like Gendry than Jaime, and Dany's vision in the s2 finale having her baby with Drogo not look like a Targ at all.

It says a lot about how much she must have wanted to escape the Twins that Fat Walda apparently hasn't noticed or doesn't care that she's married into a gothic horrorshow. Roslin Frey must have been hoping for her marriage to also be an escape before the wedding went horribly, horribly wrong.

Conan, yeah, I was seeing some parallels to Sansa's first wedding too, a wedding which LF also had a part in by nixing Sansa/Loras. I was also reminded of Marg not being able to play along for Joff's dwarf wedding show when Sansa dropped her courtesy mask after meeting Reek. A lot of things recently have felt like twists on different plotpoints that came before.

[SilverShadow]

[self-deleted a bunch of stuff, cause I thought this was the book talk thread.]

 

I do think the show is ramping up the hints to Jon's possible parentage, especially with Jon walking through the door right as Aemon says "a Targaryan alone in the world".

Edited May 13, 2015 by SilverShadow

[justawatcher]

Hey, maybe Ramsey's going to take out Roose on the Father's Day episode! Seems par for the course now.

[Hecate7]

I thought it was quite convenient and handy that the families were so color coordinated. Made it much easier for me, especially at first, to know who was who. 

Targaryen = white 

Lannisters = blond

Baratheons = black

Starks = brown

 

So, to me, anyway, Jon Snow looks like a Baratheon.  I suppose if he were both Baratheon and Targaryen, the black hair would be dominant. I hadn't been giving any thought at all to where he really came from, until this thread, but now I'll be thinking about it a lot, and looking for more clues.  

 

He's the son of Rheagar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. She did not want Robert Baratheon, and I don't think Robert had the opportunity to rape her. There would be no reason for Ned Stark to conceal from Robert Baratheon that there was a bastard from him and Lyanna. Robert would have legitimized little Jon Snow on the spot and worshipped him for life for being Lyanna's child.

 

Robert had 20 bastards--none of them were in any danger until Ned started figuring out that all of them had black hair. I agree that casting and makeup has made Snow resemble Robert Baratheon more than any Stark, but that's no more of a plot point than Shireen Baratheon being a champagne blonde. It's just carelessness and indifference on the part of the show runners, who wanted variety in characters' looks and didn't think  it through.

 

The only reason to keep Snow's parentage a secret, is if he is Rhaegar's. Robert Baratheon would have ordered him killed, if he'd had the slightest inkling. That, and not Snow's bastardy, is probably the real reason he was not allowed at dinner the night King Robert was at Winterfell---so Robert could not peruse his face for a few hours over dinner, and put two and two together.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Hecate7

[CletusMusashi]

This line of speculation about Jon's parentage used to infuriate me, because there just didn't feel to be that much evidence on the show backing it up, so it always felt like badly disguised book-talk. However, it does these days actually match the hints put forth by the actual show that we are watching. And not only that, but it explains Ned's decisions considerably better.

 

Wise, experienced, very Lawful and duty-conscious man choosing to sneak behind the king's back and expose his neck to the evil queen in order to protect the evil and illegitimate crown prince? That's just stupid. But if we add the factor that he has already been hiding lineages from the king, when it might lead to his nephew's death, then it's easier to see how he might want to slightly extend that same benefit to other houses as well. Plus, it adds one more piece of data to justify his great leap forward into basic Mendelian genetics.

 

I have mixed feelings about this, because, on the one hand, I liked liking Ned. But on the other hand, I really liked making jokes about how clueless and stupid he was.

[wayne67]

Personally I don't care who Jon Snow's parents are. I'm much more interested in what characters DO than who they're related to.

 

Which is why I don't care that half a season has gone by with neither Bran or Rickon Stark being on screen because they don't sizzle on screen with their walking/travelling plot lines.

 

I'm hoping they skim over Arya's training as I find her one of the least interesting characters on the show.  JMO teenagers with hit lists aren't novel or interesting to me.

 

Unpopular opinion I love Ramsey and I hope he lives for a while as the show's propensity for killing off villains often feels like it undercuts the stakes of the Game of Thrones. Sure it's joyous for a moment when bad guys like Joffrey or Tywin but they leave GIANT HOLES in the narrative. Heroes are only interesting when they have someone to strive against that is a challenge. Lannister toadies were murdered by the boatful by Robb and it meant nothing in the end.

Edited May 13, 2015 by wayne67

[Conan Troutman]

Unpopular opinion I love Ramsey and I hope he lives for a while as the show's propensity for killing off villains often feels like it undercuts the stakes of the Game of Thrones. Sure it's joyous for a moment when bad guys like Joffrey or Tywin but they leave GIANT HOLES in the narrative. Heroes are only interesting when they have someone to strive against that is a challenge. Lannister toadies were murdered by the boatful by Robb and it meant nothing in the end.

 

Ramsey is fun for sure, but I don't think he's strong enough to carry the load as a main villain without Roose, since he seems to lack the strategic thinking of his father and also isn't very good at hiding his evilness. But I agree, if they kill off the Boltons this season, there's going to be a lack of good villains they'll have to address soon. Maybe they'll introduce new guys or upgrade some players who have been on the sideline for the last season or so? Like Balon Greyjoy, Walder Frey or maybe even the Brotherhood Without Banners. Or they shift someone over to the "dark side".

 

Hey, maybe Ramsey's going to take out Roose on the Father's Day episode! Seems par for the course now.

 

That would be great, but if Wikipedia is right, they won't take Memorial day weekend off this year, meaning the season's over before Father's Day.

[wayne67]

Ramsey is fun for sure, but I don't think he's strong enough to carry the load as a main villain without Roose, since he seems to lack the strategic thinking of his father and also isn't very good at hiding his evilness. But I agree, if they kill off the Boltons this season, there's going to be a lack of good villains they'll have to address soon. Maybe they'll introduce new guys or upgrade some players who have been on the sideline for the last season or so? Like Balon Greyjoy, Walder Frey or maybe even the Brotherhood Without Banners. Or they shift someone over to the "dark side".

 

I don't think he's quite suitable as main villain as he has no overall goals for anything in particular except his own amusement but his unpredictable evilness makes his presence on the screen captivating as you're never sure if he's going to chop Reek into pieces or start licking him because he's acting erratic as part of his plan to psychologically dominate Reek. Littlefinger is probably the real overarching villain of the show but he's more of a schemer working behind the scenes over a long time to gain power eg like the Siths. The Boltons are necessary villains as they're the ones doing all the dirty work at the moment in Westeros. The Lannisters aren't really doing much of anything with most of them dead, incompetent or elsewhere. Walder Frey is reprehensible but he seems content to chill out in his little fiefdom.

 

The Sons of the Harpys were a threat in episode 4 but they'll probably fade back until the end of the season where they'll do something violent to the Essos crew. The White Walkers and Wight army are great existential threats but haven't done anything really scary or evil in ages.

 

At this point the Boltons are the most evil family at this point. The Tyrells are ambitious but generally sympathetic even when they commit regicide. The Starks are scattered and some are embracing the dark side. The Lannisters are scattered and some are turning towards the light... The Freys are essentially irrelevant until they have some sort of comeuppance.

 

That said I still have no idea who I'm supposed to root for. I loved Dany but her propensity to kill people without trial is tarnishing my affections for the character.

Edited May 13, 2015 by wayne67

[justawatcher]

I don't think he's quite suitable as main villain as he has no overall goals for anything in particular except his own amusement but his unpredictable evilness makes his presence on the screen captivating as you're never sure if he's going to chop Reek into pieces or start licking him because he's acting erratic as part of his plan to psychologically dominate Reek. Littlefinger is probably the real overarching villain of the show but he's more of a schemer working behind the scenes over a long time to gain power eg like the Siths. The Boltons are necessary villains as they're the ones doing all the dirty work at the moment in Westeros. The Lannisters aren't really doing much of anything with most of them dead, incompetent or elsewhere. Walder Frey is reprehensible but he seems content to chill out in his little fiefdom.

 

The Sons of the Harpys were a threat in episode 4 but they'll probably fade back until the end of the season where they'll do something violent to the Essos crew. The White Walkers and Wight army are great existential threats but haven't done anything really scary or evil in ages.

 

At this point the Boltons are the most evil family at this point. The Tyrells are ambitious but generally sympathetic even when they commit regicide. The Starks are scattered and some are embracing the dark side. The Lannisters are scattered and some are turning towards the light... The Freys are essentially irrelevant until they have some sort of comeuppance.

 

That said I still have no idea who I'm supposed to root for. I loved Dany but her propensity to kill people without trial is tarnishing my affections for the character.

I have never rooted for Dany. I did root for /enjoy watching Khal Drogo, but her storyline has been boring since his death. 4 seasons of wandering the desert bumbling at freeing slaves and punishing masters. That's it. For 4 years. That's all.

[darkestboy]

Good episode but weaker compared to the previous two though.

Dany decision to marry at the end, yeah I think she's better off cutting her losses and getting out of Meereen and fast now.

The attack with the Stone men was well done as was Tyrion's amazement at seeing Drogon flying in the air as well. I quite enjoyed his scenes with Jorah this week.

Sansa's realising pretty fast that Ramsay's a nutter so I'm hoping that her and Theon band together and kill him. Along with Brienne and Pod. They can kill Roose too if they like.

The Wall stuff wasn't particularly exciting but I get Jon's reasoning for wanting to ally properly with the Wildlings though. 7/10

[insubordination]

I was really hoping we'd get a lot of Varys/Tyrion scenes. Varys was mostly absent last season and it seems that this season will be the same. It's a shame because he's one of the more interesting characters to me.  He can't go back to Westeros, so I can't see how they can work him back into the show.

[GaiusB]

 

That said I still have no idea who I'm supposed to root for. I loved Dany but her propensity to kill people without trial is tarnishing my affections for the character.

 

I have a feeling for long time that before the last season/book, all villains will be killed off (Lannisters, Boltons, Freys) and we will get a civil war between moraly ambiguous factions that have their own passionate fan base (Dany, Stannis, Tyrells, Martells) and each of these factions will have one Stark on their side.

Edited May 13, 2015 by GaiusB

[Enigma X]

I just want to say.... I've not been on the Stannis train much, but tonight he won my grammar-loving heart.  "Fewer."  LOL  Loved the look afterward when Davos said "What?"  The quick head-shake, the never-mind hand wave.  Such a Grammar Geek!

 

Now, I shall return to lurkdom to enjoy your insights. Carry on!

 

Haha! I must admit that this scene made me coo more for him, but I was on the Stannis train when he first uttered "bend the knee." Granted, I am on a couple more trains.

[Calamity Jane]

I see a lot of people who feel as I do -- we don't know who the protagonist is, and therefore we can't know who the antagonist is.  The story is at the point where these things really should be made clearer, seems to me.  Since the show has said there will be only seven seasons, I am pretty much convinced that all these hints about Jon point to his becoming the main character, although I don't think we yet have clarity on the identity of his ultimate foe.  The Army of the Dead? White Walkers?  Lannisters?  Boltons?  Martells?  The other Targaryean?  The title certainly indicates something big about Jon and Dany, and with Dany's downward spiral of late, she seems a good choice for antagonist, the fire to his ice, as I think of it.  I'd been thinking they might join to fight the White Walkers and the  Dead coming from the north, but I suppose the conflict could be between them instead.  But it's high time we got a clue. 

[Saje]

If Dany does go full Targ, and it seems that's kinda happening, I can't imagine she'd be so far gone as to be immune to Jon's passionate (and so very RIGHT) arguments for them joining forces to fight for the good side. If Tormund Giantsbane can't resist his sincerity and logic, how could she? This is what I want to happen:

 

Dany could have her Iron Throne (I doubt Jon wants it - at ALL), and if she comes to her senses, Westeros would have an awesome ruler as long as she lived. Put Varys, Tyrion (he was an awesome Hand), Jorah (cured, of course), Arya and Grey Worm and his Unsullied surrounding her and she'd be set. Dragon-crisp the Freys and the Boltons after they'd flayed asshole Cersei and psycho zealot Lancel, and give Tommen Casterly Rock. Jon could be in Dany's Kingsguard (yes I know his oath but handwavinium). Margaery could stay with Tommen or go back to Highgarden, they're harmless enough. Jaime and Brienne could hang out at Winterfell protecting Sansa.

 

That leaves who? The Greyjoys? Pfft. Put Yara in charge of the fleet and the old, weak men will die off soon enough. Yara's the only one to worry about there, Reek's useless. I wonder, does dragon fire kill the White Walkers, or just dragonglass? Give Stannis King's Landing. At least he'll be in a place that has "king" in the name, and Shireen will grow up in a pretty place. 

 

There we go, peace in our time. Varys will be so happy!

[Lady S.]

This line of speculation about Jon's parentage used to infuriate me, because there just didn't feel to be that much evidence on the show backing it up, so it always felt like badly disguised book-talk. However, it does these days actually match the hints put forth by the actual show that we are watching. And not only that, but it explains Ned's decisions considerably better.

 

Wise, experienced, very Lawful and duty-conscious man choosing to sneak behind the king's back and expose his neck to the evil queen in order to protect the evil and illegitimate crown prince? That's just stupid. But if we add the factor that he has already been hiding lineages from the king, when it might lead to his nephew's death, then it's easier to see how he might want to slightly extend that same benefit to other houses as well. Plus, it adds one more piece of data to justify his great leap forward into basic Mendelian genetics.

 

I have mixed feelings about this, because, on the one hand, I liked liking Ned. But on the other hand, I really liked making jokes about how clueless and stupid he was.

Yes, part of the reason I believe in R+L=J is because it adds so much to Ned's dumbass decisions. Ftr, I've believed he was actually Jon's uncle for years just based on his unreasonable secrecy in their goodbye scene way back when. (We can still make fun of Ned for showing his cards to Cersei--which was more to save Tommen and Myrcella than Joffrey--since the really dumbass part of it was actually trusting Cersei to flee and not just murder Robert, and having no contingency plan when she didn't do as he wanted, besides relying on Littlefinger.)   Even assuming Lyanna was Jon's mother, I still don't see why Ned couldn't just say "your mother died in childbirth, but I promise she loved you very much, I'll explain the full story later." If Ned actually was Jon's biofather, I think he wasn't as good a father as he's made out to be. I'm not opposed to Ned just having one lapse in his wedding vows back when he and his wife barely knew each other--which was what I would have bought if it weren't for that goodbye scene--but I don't see how Ned being just too pure and noble to live except for one moment in his youth is better than Ned's downfall being influenced by his ever present inner conflict between love for Lyanna and loyalty to Robert. Ned annoyed the shit out of me when I first watched s1, only having been spoiled for his death, I was looking forward to his stupid head coming off, I prefer being able to look back at his story and find more complexity. And I've also never gotten wanting to believe Ned sired Jon just because of the idea of his getting to have more than one lover in his short stupid Stark life, if that's really so important to anyone, you can always just imagine he got his rocks off in his years of teen bachelorhood with Bobby B before their rebellion, it's not like he was 12yo King Tommen's age on his wedding night.

 

Calamity Jane, if R+L=J, Jon's parentage is one obvious meaning to the A Song of Ice and Fire title. Rhaegar's even been identified as a singer, maybe he wrote a ballad about knocking up a Stark! But really, I think there's probably a lot of different meanings to that title, whether it's dragons vs. white walkers or old gods vs. R'hllor or what. (And that title has been in the opening credits of every ep, so it should be fair game for spec. I assume the show only has a different title because aSoIaF or the Ice and Fire show is a terrible name for a tv series.) Taking to the Jon Snow thread because I have a lot of Jon thoughts this season, but I think it's good the saga doesn't have clear cut antagonists and protagonists, though I've never believed the WWs are in for a reveal of being misunderstood, even if they are better fathers than Craster. (Even Tywin, Roose, Balon, Randyll Tarly and the rest of the Westerosi Horrible Fathers club would look askance at Craster.)

 

On that note of horrible fathers, I think I finally get what they're going for with our other Northern bastard, Ramsay. Roose's attitude toward his son is "You're mine, I will use you as long as you are useful and I could dispose of you whenever you prove useless", so Ramsay has a similar attitude of ownership and disposal toward his girlfriend, and he took it to the absolute extreme by making Theon into his slave. And cold and brutal ownership of offspring is not that far off from Tywin's parenting philosophy, especially regarding Tyrion. My other thought about Ramram is that while everyone else was focusing on Myranda's hip bone, I was disappointed we didn't get a shot of Ramsay's junk like we did Theon's, back when Theon still had a dick to show. Iwan Rheon recently tweeted prior to this ep, about seeing more of Ramsay than ever before or some such, a clear nudity reference, yet I already knew perfectly well how nice his butt is from his time playing Simon on Misfits.

[Holmbo]

I see a lot of people who feel as I do -- we don't know who the protagonist is, and therefore we can't know who the antagonist is.  The story is at the point where these things really should be made clearer, seems to me.  Since the show has said there will be only seven seasons, I am pretty much convinced that all these hints about Jon point to his becoming the main character, although I don't think we yet have clarity on the identity of his ultimate foe.  The Army of the Dead? White Walkers?  Lannisters?  Boltons?  Martells?  The other Targaryean?  The title certainly indicates something big about Jon and Dany, and with Dany's downward spiral of late, she seems a good choice for antagonist, the fire to his ice, as I think of it.  I'd been thinking they might join to fight the White Walkers and the  Dead coming from the north, but I suppose the conflict could be between them instead.  But it's high time we got a clue. 

It will certainly be very interesting to see how it all wraps up. I think there are a lot of different views on how the series will/should end. Not just in terms of who lives and dies and who ends up on the throne but the overall purpose and message of the story.

I don't even know that we will ever get a clear division of antagonists and protagonists though. I could see characters even when fighting ice zombies having very colliding views on what they want.

[Calamity Jane]

You could well be right.  Not conventional, and not my favorite type of story, but certainly possible.  

[Conan Troutman]

I have a feeling for long time that before the last season/book, all villains will be killed off (Lannisters, Boltons, Freys) and we will get a civil war between moraly ambiguous factions that have their own passionate fan base (Dany, Stannis, Tyrells, Martells) and each of these factions will have one Stark on their side.

 

Interesting. Have you any idea which Stark would join which team?

 

My first reaction would be:

- Sansa: Probably Stannis, if Littlefingers scenario comes to fruition. But she does seems to like the Tyrells, too, so that's an alternative.

- Arya: Pretty much open. The two factions she's most likely to meet are the Tyrells (Mace is on his way to Braavos, along with Arya's next murder victim, so we could see an interaction between them soon enough) and Dany, who might start her Westeros invasion project from there, but I don't know if Arya will stay there long enough for them to meet.  But she might also be drawn to the Martells, since she probably would get along greatly with the Sand Snakes and I see her liking the Martell family values in general.

- Bran: I wouldn't be surprised if he'd eventually manage to somehow warg a dragon (warg into a dragon? Where's Stannis for the grammar lessons when you need him?), so that most likely would put him into camp Dany. If she has no control over Drogon, maybe Bran will?

- Rickon: He's such a non-character at this point, so no spec. Next one...

- Jon: Has to be either Stannis or Dany, for obvious reasons.

 

So if we ignore Rickon, at this point only the combination of Sansa -> Tyrell, Arya -> Martell, Bran -> Dany and Jon -> Stannis would really add up. But I think Sansa -> Stannis, Arya -> Tyrell and Bran -> Dany might make more sense for the individual characters. Since I don't see Jon joining the Martells, Rickon would have to do that and Jon would either also team up with Dany or maybe join a fifth faction (yes, I still want him to end up with the WW somehow).

Edited May 14, 2015 by Conan Troutman

[wayne67]

I think the appeal of gratuitous nudity and violence is wearing thin under the sprawling 'epic tale' that appears to be dragging on. At least for me.

 

It's like watching a bunch of toddlers racing towards a distant iron chair, the tantrums and tears are amusing for a while in a sadistic fashion but then it's like someone do something already, the novelty of toddler racing is wearing thin. I don't really know how well that metaphor works ...

 

At this point

 

Jon snow is off on another journey North of the Wall to have a chat to Wildlings

 

House Stark is scattered throughout Westeros with no discernible end goal except maybe the complete slaughter of House Lannister, Frey and Bolton

 

House Lannister is scattered and weakened with Tryion somewhere in Valeria (sp?), Tywin and Joffrey in the Westeros version in hell (probably) Cersei running roughshod over teen king Tommen in Kings Landing, Myrcella and Jamie Lannister off in Dorne with high potential for death by Sand Snakes

 

House Bolton is creepy and holding their ground in Winterfell

 

House Ironborn has lost their male heir and Yara is somewhere doing something after her failed rescue attempt

 

House Frey is probably biding their time on their little moat fiefdom or whatever

 

Stannis Baratheon has murdered his brother with a shadow baby birthed by a psychotic redhead mistress priestess and has plans for the Iron Throne but has to make his way through Bolton armies and whatever is left of the Lannister army.

 

Dany wants to claim the Iron Throne but is currently embroiled in a long tedious campaign to stamp out insurrection in her goal of removing slavery as practice for dealing with the difficulty of HOLDING the Iron Throne. Unfortunately this is bogged down by grounding 2 of her dragons and having one loosed on the world and her terrible decision to use mercenaries and soldiers as cops and peacekeepers with no real end in sight much like several real world equivalents.

 

I don't even know if there are any real major plots worth following... Anyone help me ? Are we all waiting for the Dany to go batshit and burn all of Essos down before proceeding to Westeros to burn everything else to the ground? Kind of feels nihilistic enough to end this epic saga of fantasy sword fights. Or are people hoping Arya, Sansa or Bran warging a dragon revenges Ned ?

[Saje]

Heh heh. I admit to chuckling at your scenarios (strikes me like the "Honest Trailers" on youtube), but I'm still along for the ride. I want to see if in this horrible world the good will still prevail.

 

I'm Ned, the Seven help me. :P

[Meredith Quill]

This topic is for discussing the episode. Please take future speculation to an appropriate thread.

 

Thank you.

[RadiantAerynSun]

I find it interesting that we now know that Valyria has "stone men" whose touch can turn you into another stone man, and in the north we have the white walkers whose touch we have seen turn a baby into another white walker. Hmmmm. What happens if a stone man touches a white walker? LOL

[BizBuzz]

What happens if a stone man touches a white walker? LOL

 

You get a Stoned White Walker?  ::giggle::

[mledawn]

Poor Jorah, he just wanted to bring Tyrion to Dany and maybe get a little hug from the Queen. Now, he can't. He's getting hosed all over the place!

[Jamoche]

The Bolton's know that Theon didn't really kill Bran and Rickon right?  I think they do, so it made his apology seem more sadistic to Reekon, since there is NO way he would correct Ramsay.

Not in public, but if there was a chance for Theon to regain even a fraction of his backbone, pulling the classic "your relatives aren't dead after all!" would be a good candidate.

 

Also I suspect if they knew, they'd do something about it. Living Stark children are a potential rallying point for their enemies; it's why Sansa has to either be married to Ramsay or dead, and the boys would only get one of those options.

 

I have to say that Alfie Allen is doing an amazing acting job as Theon/Reek.  I thought I would be a bit whimsical here and post a video of Lily Allen singing a song she wrote about her little bro called ALFIE -

 

There's a Theon fanvid version of that! 

[Ambrosefolly]

Also I suspect if they knew, they'd do something about it. Living Stark children are a potential rallying point for their enemies; it's why Sansa has to either be married to Ramsay or dead, and the boys would only get one of those options.

The Boltons indeed know: Roose sent Locke to Castle Black, because they figured it  is the first place they would go because of Jon Snow. Locke even joined the Jon and his volunteers to Craster's Keep because he overheard that Bran went past the wall and that would be a decent resting point, Locke even found Bran and Co. trapped in a shed by the mutineers, that is when Bran possessed Hordor's body and killed him. Not only does Roose know everyone would automatically rally to the side of the last two male heirs, since he basically seen as traitor at best and sadistic asshat at worst, he probably figures if it is years until he finds them and they are alive, he would probably get some nasty, personal retribution if Rickon makes it to manhood, since Stark men aren't know to be physically weak.