S10.E21: Dark Dynasty

[catrox14]

 

I keep hearing that Dean is getting worse, but they haven't shown any evidence of it.  I think Dean was the calmest one on the show tonight.

 

I'm starting to wonder if it's the calmness that is freaking out Sam.  Thinking back to King of the Damned, Dean said he felt a certainty. Maybe it's that Dean is in control that scares Sam. Because if Dean is in control, then Sam has no idea what he'll do. 

 

I do give Jared credit because at the beginning of the episode I really did feel Sam's desperation.

 

And I agree with those that didn't like the fast zooms. It gave a far too campy feel to an otherwise intense episode.

[Jediknight]

I'm really not worried about that. The show kills everyone. I don't really think her death is going to have that much an effect. Some people will be upset, some people won't. I think her popularity was way overstated.

The problem is like you said, the show kills everyone.  At some point it's going to get to the straw breaking the camel's back moment.  Because it's going to be "Why? Why get invested in anyone but Sam, Dean, or Castiel?"  You've got to keep recurring characters alive, so fans can get invested in them, and their death means something outside of pissing off fans.

 

I was really liking this episode till Charlie's death.  I've been bored with this season with the exception of a couple of episodes, this would have been on the exception list, but once again a recurring character dies because of reasons.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Jediknight

[Andromeda]

I'm sad. I Iiked Charlie, and Felicia Day. Even though in several scenes her heavy makeup made her look 45. I got a kick out of Codex from The Guild working with an actual codex. But why do they never use Castiel's powers? He could have been there in a split second and saved her.

 

I hope the Frankenstein family is a setup for next season -- it's an interesting premise, if gross.

[catrox14]

Cas is still unable to flit around as far as I know because of his mostly broken wings. 

 

I just can't understand how Cas didn't know about Rowena being Crowley's mother. Sam knew and in all of this he didn't think to tell Cas about it?  Ugh.

[GirlyGeek]

Okay. I have a theory. Maybe this is an illusion spell. Maybe Rowena and Charlie hatched this plan.

 

I thought the same thing (and hoped!).  But that wouldn't work cause Charlie was making progress on her computer and sending files and stuff... right?!

 

 

I loved Charlie.  I am devastated.  I spent the last 15 minutes, as it built up to the inevitable, with my hand over my mouth and a pit in my stomach.

 

Ugh.  and NOOOOOO

 

And, by extension, I'm really hating on Sam right now.

 

Dean was flipping SCARY pacing back and forth and leaning over Sam's shoulder as he "interrogated" Sam.  Freaking scary.  I kept thinking he was going to snap and hit Sam over the head or something.

 

I just can't say anything else.  I'm too sad.  This sucks.

[AwesomO4000]

Speaking of that, catrox... I did enjoy Castiel stating the obvious that Rowena was a wicked witch ... hee.
 

 

Edited to add:

And, by extension, I'm really hating on Sam right now.

 

This is what I dislike the most about Charlie's death. Yet another blow for Sam's character. Mr. Carver just can't seem to go an entire season without having Sam do something that fans will really dislike him for. At least the interval is getting longer as to how long it takes: Season 8 - not even one episode. Season 9 - 12 episodes. This season Sam made it 20 episodes... On second thought, maybe that makes it worse, because I actually had hope this season.

Edited May 7, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

I did say a lot of "Sam, Sam , Sam what are you doing"...and facepalming.. BUT.  I do not put Charlie's death on Sam at all. I'm not even really mad at him to be honest.

 

What did irrationally piss me off was Rowena calling Sam "Samuel" and Sam letting her get away with that.  Fuck you, Rowena. You are not his mother. You shut your cake hole.

[AwesomO4000]

At least she didn't call him Sammy.

[catrox14]

At least she didn't call him Sammy.

 

This is true!

[anarchyangel84]

I was surprised that so many posters here were mourning Charlie. Or is it less mourning and more that you were irritated by the obviousness of the parallels between her and Kevin, who I loved. I wonder if some are mourning the loss of the symbolic rep for LGBT rather than the character itself. Is there anyone out there who loved Charlie for herself? Apart for Dean's affection for her, I mean.

I liked Charlie- about as much as I liked Ash or Pamela. I was sad when they died, but I personally didn't really miss them like I did Bobby. I'm mostly sad for Sam and Dean. I said this in my post- those boys have lost pretty much everyone they've ever cared a little bit about. Yet another thing I've come to really dislike about this show.

[Iguana]

Sigh. I hate it when the script makes characters do stupid and unrealistic things without any believable motivation. As previously written, Charlie would have been too smart to hang out in a unprotected motel room when a huge and powerful family was trying very hard to find her. And to only have a tiny knife for a weapon when she is good with a gun and sword? Totally nonsensical. I've never been more than lukewarm towards Charlie, but this death by petulance is really a shitty way to treat an honorary Winchester. Bad show, just......bad. I don't normally like to point fingers at any one person on the show but the writers for this episode have consistently and virtually without fail written some of the worst and most disappointing episodes of the show. I have to think it really is them, not me.

The only good things in this episode had very little to do with the script as written and mostly dependent on the actors performances. Not withstanding the total lack of actually showing us Dean was "getting worse", Jared did a really good job of showing us Sam's rapidly growing desperation. Crowley had great chemistry with the hamster. And Jensen showed a very scary side of Dean when he was confronting Sam about not burning the book. It has to be hard to look threatening and intimidating when you're dealing with a man of Sam's size, but damned if both actors didn't pull off the body language just right.

That being said, while fandom and/or the show may blame Sam for Charlie's death, I certainly don't. She made a free and conscious decision to stay and translate the book and participate in Sam's plan. The Steins were chasing her because she had taken the book, and found her because she chose to sneak away from Castiel and apparent safety. Charlie decided to stay in a place with no weapons or protection, because she was too sensitive or immature to find a way to work with Rowena. So, her choice, her death, her fault.

[Omegamom]

Bastards.

I liked Charlie. And they made her stupid--the Charlie we knew wouldn't have gone off to a motel by herself. Gah.

And they made the brothers stupid when they had them chain the Styne dude by ONLY ONE HAND!!! WTF?!?

Stupid stupid stupid. And none of those three is stupid. Gah, again.

I did think that Dean was pretty demon!Dean-adjacent when he was interrogating Sam.

Assholes.

[catrox14]

 

I liked Charlie. And they made her stupid--the Charlie we knew wouldn't have gone off to a motel by herself. Gah.

 

I've been thinking about this more. I don't think Charlie going off was out of character. She took off to find the book by herself. She went to Oz with Dorothy and fought a war by herself as dark!Charlie. She has been living for years by herself and she was using a sword like 3 episodes ago.  I think the her biggest mistake was  in underestimating or not learning more about the Steins and how powerful they are or so it seems.

[raytch]

I can't believe they fridged Charlie.

 

Oh wait yes I can.

 

I wasn't even particularly fond of Charlie. She was okay, but not a super favorite of mine. But the way she died for the plot, to push the guys toward the next plot point, just... ugh.

 

Meanwhile, Metatron is still running around alive with his testicles.

 

THANK YOU

I honestly loved Charlie, I know I'm in the minority for that but I always thought she had great chemistry with the brothers and most of all, she was a nice comic relief without ever sounding like a stupid bimbo (think Cordelia in early seasons of Angel).

I get why she died, because now Dean and Sam will have every reason to go after the Steins. But, damn I would have loved it to be anyone else, just because it wouldn't have been like this show.

 

The show is really pushing the limits in how male oriented it is. I get not giving Sam and Dean love interests (I'm actually all for it). I get that some female villains die on this show, but what I hate is the fact that people like Metatron get to stay hanging around in the background while people like Charlie are expandable.

It's starting to give a 'No Girls Allowed' message, which I'm not so fond of.

I get a 'There's no Place for Nice Girls" message, because yes, it's a dangerous world, but obviously they're saying that there's no place for girls at all, since even the villain ladies don't survive (Abadon last season, who had great potential)

 

 

Side note: the only thing that kind of bothered me about Charlie is that she had to be gay, to make sure that she won't be a love interest for any of the boys. Did that ever bother anyone else or am I reading too much into this?

[SueB]

Crowley had great chemistry with the hamster.

I nominate this for episode sub-title. Brilliant.

[NoWillToResist]

Man, it's like they sat down and said 'Okay, what can we have Sam do this season that will be the exact equal of Dean saving him against his will, and with the end result that one of their friends gets killed.'  They need new writers with new ideas.

 

The problem is like you said, the show kills everyone.  At some point it's going to get to the straw breaking the camel's back moment.  Because it's going to be "Why? Why get invested in anyone but Sam, Dean, or Castiel?"  You've got to keep recurring characters alive, so fans can get invested in them, and their death means something outside of pissing off fans.

 

You know, I've joked about the show deciding to dump all the characters except Sam and Dean so that the next season returns to its "roots" (brothers only). But I didn't think they'd kill Charlie since she's hardly ever around anyway. But if she is truly dead and this isn't some fake-out, then I'm more worried than ever about Cas' fate.

 

Twice now, Dean has done something in desperation which ended up in the death of one of his 'family'. Dean's tendency is to blame himself and since they were all dicking around with the Book to try and rescue Dean from the MoC, I'm sure he'll take on the burden of guilt for Charlie's death too. I honestly would not be at all surprised at this point if Crowley, Rowena AND Cas all bite it in the finale.

 

I confess I have no interest in just the Sam 'n' Dean show; I liked the whole SPN 'verse with its host of characters. The idea of Dean and Sam basically alone in the world with only each other for company etc. just fills me with sadness. Them having an extended family of friends and hunters and whatnot was a bright spot in their otherwise crappy world. The systematic erasure of the SPN family has torpedoed my interest in the show. I basically check the 'net to see what happened and, more often than not, find myself uninterested in bothering to watch the episode...

[Phebemarie]

I'm worried that the Steins are going to harvest some Winchester body parts (like an arm, perhaps).  I know it was already mentioned that Dean wouldn't be free of the mark if he cut off his arm, but I find it an odd coincidence that the writers allowed the Stein prisoner to escape the way he did.  

 

No one has mentioned the college student killed in the opening.  The last time I've been as unsettled by the first first minutes of Supernatural was during the "My Bloody Valentine" episode.  I use one of those scoops to make cookies, for Chuck's sake!    

Edited May 7, 2015 by Phebemarie

[catrox14]

Okay I saw a funny thing on Twitter about how soon it will be before we get a thumb war between Cains hand and Steins arm, and I laughed and laughed.

Oh here's an idea. That's keeps Charlie alive. What if it's dark!Charlie that is dead in that tub because she was able to split herself off from good! Charlie and good! Charlie is actually off in hiding somewhere. And dark! Charlie was sending the information to good! Charlie?

Edited May 7, 2015 by catrox14

[Frost]

I know it was already mentioned that Dean wouldn't be free of the mark if he cut off his arm, but I find it an odd coincidence that the writers allowed the Stein prisoner to escape the way he did.

 

Yuck.  That would be supremely gross.  Plus, I don't think it's the same arm.  Dean has the Mark on his right arm and the Styne ripped off his left arm, I believe.  It was hard to pay attention to what was happening during that scene because I couldn't figure out why they only chained up his one arm.  It made no sense whatsoever.  And having it end up being purely because someone thought it would be 'cool' if the guy ripped off his own arm (and can harvest another one apparently) makes it even worse.  I think the writers could have come up with another way to show how the Stynes view body parts as interchangeable.

 

With that being said, I really want to see a Styne that has some mixed body parts.  A male with a female hand or someone with different colored eyes. 

 

I'm also wondering where the female Stynes are.  We haven't seen a single female, have we?  Do they just build themselves a new son when they want one?  Is that why all the 'sons' and 'cousins' in the meeting all looked vaguely alike?

[Goldmoon]

I confess I have no interest in just the Sam 'n' Dean show; I liked the whole SPN 'verse with its host of characters. The idea of Dean and Sam basically alone in the world with only each other for company etc. just fills me with sadness. Them having an extended family of friends and hunters and whatnot was a bright spot in their otherwise crappy world.

This.  As much as I hated Charlie, I also hate that they killed Ellen, Ash, Bobby, etc.  And Crowley's conversation with the hamster was the highlight. Mark Sheppard makes everything better.  I used to think I would bail (and did bail in early season 7) if they killed Cas, but he doesn't get the writing any more, and is never seen with Dean for reasons.  If they gave me a choice at this point, I would lose Cas and keep Crowley, the hamster-whisperer.

[Primetimer]

It's all wacky hijinks until it really, really isn't.

Read the story

[missbonnie]

Oh come on show! I quit you when you had Castiel go off the reservation in season 6 and then I came back halfway through this season and get all caught up and then you pull this?? There better be one hell of a payout for this misery or I will be done for good.

[Demian]

They should have killed Charlie about three minutes into her first episode.

[Goldmoon]

They should have killed Charlie about three minutes into her first episode.

Thank you.  Good to know I'm not alone.

[cassandle]

The only good things in this episode had very little to do with the script as written and mostly dependent on the actors performances. Not withstanding the total lack of actually showing us Dean was "getting worse", Jared did a really good job of showing us Sam's rapidly growing desperation. Crowley had great chemistry with the hamster. And Jensen showed a very scary side of Dean when he was confronting Sam about not burning the book. It has to be hard to look threatening and intimidating when you're dealing with a man of Sam's size, but damned if both actors didn't pull off the body language just right.

 

Agreed.  As much as this show can piss me off with the writing and plot holes and angst overload I know I'll watch it till the bitter end because I really love these actors.  I'll be very sad in the future when Jared and Jensen aren't acting opposite each other anymore.

[Commando Cody]

I need a little clarification.  Now that the angels are running heaven again, are the ghost still stuck on earth?  Could they, feasibly, have Charlie and Keven meet in the veil and have an adventure together?  Even worse, could the Winchester's collect her stuff and be haunted by her like Keven was?  I don't remember this point being directly cleared up.  

 

I think the Steins big mistake here is, they don't have a private island - like the Doll Maker had on Gotham.  It was weird seeing two shows this season with people harvesting body parts.  I really think the Doll Maker had the edge in terms of secrecy.  Although admittedly, we don't know enough about the Steins and any of their secret lairs.  The one Stein in this episode clearly messed up.  

[SueB]

I need a little clarification.  Now that the angels are running heaven again, are the ghost still stuck on earth?  

With Cas AND Metatron saying "Heaven is working", the implication is they are getting souls into Heaven.  

[Frost]

What season was the other Frankenstein type plot with the guy achieving immortality by replacing his body parts? 

 

Also, I call foul on Elton (or Eldon or whatever his name was) having a big scar down his chest due to his two hearts but no other scars anywhere.  And none of the Stynes we've seen so far had visible scars.  If they do as much harvesting and body part replacement as they inferred in this episode, they should either be scarred up or due to their advanced medical know how (how do you wire up a human body to use two hearts, anyway?) there shouldn't be any scarring.

[supposebly]

 

What season was the other Frankenstein type plot with the guy achieving immortality by replacing his body parts?

 

Season 3 Time is On My Side. Doc Benton. Sam wanted to use his knowledge to keep Dean alive. I wonder if any of the writers/showrunners even remember him. He certainly looked a lot more stitched together that those guys.

[SueB]

 

Also, I call foul on Elton (or Eldon or whatever his name was) having a big scar down his chest due to his two hearts but no other scars anywhere.  And none of the Stynes we've seen so far had visible scars.  If they do as much harvesting and body part replacement as they inferred in this episode, they should either be scarred up or due to their advanced medical know how (how do you wire up a human body to use two hearts, anyway?) there shouldn't be any scarring.

Two ideas:

1) He JUST got his second heart and it takes a week or so (even with magic) for the scar to go *poof*, OR

2) They keep that one down the middle for easy & quick access to the major organs

 

I did notice they bleed mostly black blood. There was some red, like around the edges, but I'm wondering if the main arterial stuff is black -- from some sort of magic spell.

I also though about Doc Benton.  Wouldn't surprise me if he had some rogue connection. He was all scar-face so I think he didn't get the magic part.

[rue721]

What part did they harvest off of Charlie's body? Because don't tell me that the Steins are so wasteful that they wouldn't harvest anything.

 

I liked Rowena and Crowley a lot. Especially Crowley with the hamster. Everything else...not as much. Most of the episode was interminably boring, imo. Btw, is anything going to come of all of Rowena's talk about how alike she and Charlie are? And is anything going to come of how well Rowena was able to read Charlie? I feel like something might, because Rowena always seems to like recruiting young women -- she brought on those two sex worker women to try and form a new coven for herself way back in her intro episode. Thinking about it now, I wish that she would have gotten on Crowley's case over how she'd always wanted a daughter and that's one of the reasons they aren't close. Because I'm always up for more minor, grating family dysfunction in shows like this. And because Crowley is so weird about how macho he is/isn't, too. Well anyway, not to digress.

 

I'm still distracted by the fact that there's all this subterfuge within Camp Winchester over the Book in the first place. If Dean can't accept that majority rules and the majority of their team wants to decipher the Book rather than burn it, then he's a prick. If the rest of the crew (Sam, Cas, Charlie) can't tell him that majority rules and he needs to just deal with it, then they're cowards. All this "strife" seems so uselessly macho (at best) and contrived (at worst) to me.

[rue721]

Oh yeah, and I'm sort of sad about Charlie's death. She was so-so for me. Didn't especially like her, didn't especially dislike her.

 

I'm frustrated and appalled that they fridged her, though.

[SueB]

What part did they harvest off of Charlie's body? Because don't tell me that the Steins are so wasteful that they wouldn't harvest anything.

Kidneys?  She was in the bathtub. Sorry, too soon.

[rue721]

I mean, I assume she WAS in the bathtub because they'd been cutting her up somehow and harvesting something or other. I don't think they put her in there out of thoughtfulness toward the motel's housekeeping. :P

[Aeryn13]

 

If Dean can't accept that majority rules and the majority of their team wants to decipher the Book rather than burn it, then he's a prick.

 

They are only messing with the book in his name, though, so he should be allowed to tell them that he doesn`t want it. I see nothing prickish in that. 

[catrox14]

that is my guess. that's another point in favor of her not being dead. maybe they took her spleen or something else she can live without. they could he staging the funeral pyre for the benefit of watchful eyes.

[catrox14]

What part did they harvest off of Charlie's body? Because don't tell me that the Steins are so wasteful that they wouldn't harvest anything.

I liked Rowena and Crowley a lot. Especially Crowley with the hamster. Everything else...not as much. Most of the episode was interminably boring, imo. Btw, is anything going to come of all of Rowena's talk about how alike she and Charlie are? And is anything going to come of how well Rowena was able to read Charlie? I feel like something might, because Rowena always seems to like recruiting young women -- she brought on those two sex worker women to try and form a new coven for herself way back in her intro episode. Thinking about it now, I wish that she would have gotten on Crowley's case over how she'd always wanted a daughter and that's one of the reasons they aren't close. Because I'm always up for more minor, grating family dysfunction in shows like this. And because Crowley is so weird about how macho he is/isn't, too. Well anyway, not to digress.

I'm still distracted by the fact that there's all this subterfuge within Camp Winchester over the Book in the first place. If Dean can't accept that majority rules and the majority of their team wants to decipher the Book rather than burn it, then he's a prick. If the rest of the crew (Sam, Cas, Charlie) can't tell him that majority rules and he needs to just deal with it, then they're cowards. All this "strife" seems so uselessly macho (at best) and contrived (at worst) to me.

The book was calling to Dean, that it wanted him to do bad things. There is no majority rules when he is the only one that is being affected by the book.IMO Dean absolutely should have the last word on the book. unless they plan to just bench a powerful weapon. Why not listen to the guy that is telling them its going to be bad news?

[SueB]

So I did a rewatch and have much to comment on. 

 

Overall:

- The decision to kill Charlie: Carver & Singer -- Stupid with a side of OBVIOUS. I really want more creative than "fridge the darling".

- Episode basic plot: I find the Stynes intriguing and liked the mythology info, Rowena & Charlie working together works for me

- Dialog & script in general: Ah... Buckner-Lemming. Choppy with some obvious plot holes. Some good bits ("disco" comes to mind). 

- Acting: A+, as usual.  What could have been some "okay" scenes were much more compelling due to acting (ex: Dean making Sam come clean).

 

Details:

- Super creepy opener with the rapey vibe.  And I so don't need to see melon ballers used like that.  I will never eat round cantaloupe bits again. 

- Southern Fried Stynes - did anyone else get the impression that they mostly manufacture their people?  They used terms like "sons" and "cousins" but that felt more like a rank rather than an actual birth relationship.  Like they start off human but at some point, based on aptitude and intellect, they start with the body modifications for them to perform specific functions. Like Eldon having two hearts and extra leg muscle.  I'm thinking that's part of why he's a harvester. He's got speed, stamina, and strength for getting his job done.  And apparently the lowest ranks are "organ donors" and "experiments" or something equally deterring to screwing up.  As mentioned above, they bleed black (mostly).  I'm reminded of the Dark Angel (another Jensen show) group of people who bred out pain response.  In this case, I'm thinking that in addition to being enhanced in some way, they also have some magic going that allows them to rip off limbs and still keep going.  Eldon also said that he was "expendable". So I'm thinking they are not super old (like Doc Benton).  Now I get the whole 'war profiteering' business and how they start a war & then profit from it.  What I don't get is: to what end?  The Shreveport house was nice enough but what is their ideology beside "make money".  With the Aryan looks (blondish, blue eyed) and direct ties to the Nazi's...is there a some sort of master-race crap they believe in?  Since they are living underground, again...I have to wonder...to what end?  Just to survive?  Get a job.  What is their evil master plan leading to?  Eldon didn't seem to have a copy of the master plan, just his parts he was executing.  Dude was awfully arrogant (and thus chatty).  I liked that they used that approach to get the exposition out.  Arrogance will be their undoing.

- Rowena & Charlie fighting: A little too forced IMO.  Charlie is much more professional than that.  Her being unable to handle it and actually leaving (after Cas already took Rowena out of the room) was one of those glaring plot holes designed to get her killed.  Pissed me off. Snark points to Rowena for looking at them when they all said "for Dean" and saying "I barely know the man!"

- Cas: I like Cas being quirky -- so the pork rinds, the calls to Sam, etc... worked for me.  OTOH, I think they made him less competent than he really is.  Even "literal" Cas could have handled the two better IMO. And what the hell is this "off doing Angel stuff" non-sense.  Why isn't Cas living in the bunker full time at this point.  After he found Cain, he was officially without a specific task he was on.  Surely they could have come up with something better.  And why isn't Dean routinely talking to Cas anyway.  Sam clearly was for a while, without hiding it.  They just didn't think that whole bit through.  They wanted to go for the "Cas is an awkward turtle when it comes to lying" gag but it requires so much bad canon to get to that point.  

- Sam: You looked so shifty this entire episode.  He should have gone with the "secret relationship" answer.  A love interest would have been such an obvious reason for him getting calls and being gone all the time.  He could have simply said "it's nothing serious and I don't want to talk about it yet".  Dean would have pestered him but his flat NON-answer was just ... so bad.  I do think, so far, he's handling Rowena better than expected.  

- Dean: I gotta say, his quip about "dark urges, nightmares, etc.." sure makes it seem like he's doing really well handling the Mark.  Then again, he was pretty damn menacing with his brother.  Just predatory.  He's had other times where he's had to force Sam to tell the truth but he creeped me out in that scene.  Sam also LOOKED creeped out.  

- Crowley: wins the fun portion of the evening. "Nice grouping!" says the guy being tortured.  And the conversation with the hamster was brilliant.  The minion fear was overplayed...I blame that on the director.

- I was disappointed that they 1) went back to the bunker from Omaha and picked up a tail, 2) the guy was able to exit the bunker and get away (I presume the enhancements helped a lot), and 3) the dude is left alive to reveal the bunker location. They need to protect the Batcave better.

 

Finally, it's not going to matter that Charlie is a grown-up who can make her own decisions (as is Cas). Dean is blaming Sam because he is involving them in dangerous shit.  The car conversation was both hypocritical ("I made that clear"...yes you did Dean, and Sam was clear about possession...clarity of wishes didn't work for him either) and a little too heavy handed with the parallels to S9.  At least Charlie & Cas knew what they were getting into (mostly).  OTOH, after Kevin's death, it's not unreasonable that Dean would expect Sam to be more protective of Charlie at least.  My personal opinion:  Sam, Cas & Charlie ALL knew what they were doing was sketchy and didn't feel right.  They should have listened to their instincts ("reeks" "never ends well").  When the Stynes showed back up it was time for Sam to come clean IMO.  His story was already falling apart. Add Cas struggling with the two ladies and Sam needed to either get Dean on board with what was going on or drug his beer (so he was unconscious) and go work the problem.  Unfortunately, like many people in trouble, he kept thinking he could pull out a win, even as things started to go bad.  The Stynes IMO were too big of a threat to have running around with Charlie/Cas/Rowena operating in secret.

 

ETA: Not a fan of "majority rules" on this one.  The Book has Biblical-level "badness" repercussions.  They are messing with it FOR Dean. Dean gets to say "no" UNLESS they deem his an equal-level threat (which they could). But that wasn't the argument.  The argument was "we love you".  

Edited May 7, 2015 by SueB

[supposebly]

 

ETA: Not a fan of "majority rules" on this one.  The Book has Biblical-level "badness" repercussions.  They are messing with it FOR Dean. Dean gets to say "no" UNLESS they deem his an equal-level threat (which they could). But that wasn't the argument.  The argument was "we love you".

 

That was another writing fail. Thanks for reminding me. What Sam should have said: So, you want me to wait until you turn and go on a rampage, killing Cas, Crowley, and me in the end?

I'm fairly sure Dean didn't tell him about all that, but it's reasonable for Sam to assume that this is what is going to happen.

[Ria]

After he found Cain, he was officially without a specific task he was on.

 

 

Cas should probably be out looking for Metatron who took off with the demon tablet. And since Cas lost him, whatever happens will pretty much be Cas's fault. Again.

 

Could they, feasibly, have Charlie and Keven meet in the veil and have an adventure together?

 

 

They are both in nerd heaven now.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Ria

[midge]

Rowena was pretty this episode. 

 

That's pretty much all I got.  I only liked Charlie because of how much Dean loved her.  Dude needed a sister. 

 

Maybe her death will finally get us some real Devil Dean.  This season has been a lot of "Dean is out of control, No!  Really, we swear!"  but absolutely no payoff on it. 

 

Mark Sheppard for the win. 

[Tippi Blevins]

Yeah, he really needs to hunt down Metatron. I hate that that twit is probably going to survive into another season.

[The Mighty Peanut]

I thought I was one of the people who liked Charlie but never really bought the proverbial cow.

But...I'm thinking now I did buy the cow, because I'm super sad. When Dean said "Charlie?" hoping against hope she wasn't dead I got something in both of my eyes. Ugh. I really wanted more Rowena/Charlie bonding sessions ("Nerd or witch?") and I hope she gets properly mad at Sam.

Edited May 9, 2015 by The Mighty Peanut

[LittleIggy]

Bastards.

I liked Charlie. And they made her stupid--the Charlie we knew wouldn't have gone off to a motel by herself. Gah.

And they made the brothers stupid when they had them chain the Styne dude by ONLY ONE HAND!!! WTF?!?

Stupid stupid stupid.

Thank you! When I saw that I was WTF?! too! What possible reason could you have for chaining up a very powerful guy by only one wrist? Those writers are idiots for that alone.

As noted by others, Crowley and the hammie were the only bright spot.

[catrox14]

That was another writing fail. Thanks for reminding me. What Sam should have said: So, you want me to wait until you turn and go on a rampage, killing Cas, Crowley, and me in the end?

I'm fairly sure Dean didn't tell him about all that, but it's reasonable for Sam to assume that this is what is going to happen.

Its reasonable for Sam to worried but he's assuming that dean is lying or wrong about the book.

[AwesomO4000]

Its reasonable for Sam to worried but he's assuming that dean is lying or wrong about the book.

 

I'm not so sure. I think Sam likely knows there will be consequences - at least I would hope so - but I think maybe he was hoping that if there were any consequences, they would happen to him. If there are season 4 parallels, I'm remembering a desperate Sam from the flashbacks in "I Know What You Did..." who didn't have two shits to give about himself at that point. He was ready for an even exchange, not even "give me a year." * He just wanted Dean out of hell even if that meant him immediately in. For me, this is more that Sam gets what Dean is saying and that this is dangerous - but Sam is still saying "So? I don't care. I'm willing to go there." But he knows Dean would hate that.

 

It might actually be even more so now, because now Charlie is lost to the cause. Sam may feel that giving up now would mean that Charlie died for nothing, so he might feel obligated to see it through, so that her death won't be in vain, and because he'd feel that's what Charlie would want: Dean cured.

 

* As an aside, I loved Sam's non-sequitur in that drunken rant of his: "I don't want ten years. I don't want one year. I don't want candy!" Oh, Sam. Only a Winchester could pull that off.

[catrox14]

So...I have a thought.  I was rewatching the end of s9....And Metatron called the LoL the Death Star.   Now, has anyone else ever called the LoL the Death Star before or after that ? I'm thinking no...

 

And here Charlie called the LoL the Death Star, which I thought was rather odd.  Ccould that have been Metatron pulling a trick like he did with Gabriel?  That he was trying to get his hands on that codex too?  What if Metatron and Crowley are in cahoots.  

[mertensia]

Yeah I'm a little surprised they chose to have Charlie stay and fight- it's a bit out of character for her.

Only Crowley would end up with a tortured minion who admires the torturing . "Nice grouping" with a lot of approval.

Oh Crowley. Now I need to have you in a scene with a chipmunk. "Squeak squeaker squeak squeaken" .

The Frankensteins. Just what the world needs.

[DittyDotDot]

Eh, as a Horrible Duo episode, it was positively fabulous! As a regular episode, I found myself bored for the most part. Lots and lots and lots of monologues and over telegraphing and, well...boredom.

 

I'm no Charlie enthusiast (although was fine with her in small doses) but I wasn't aware we needed more handwringing, angst and sad droopy looks to camera and such on this show. Sheesh show!

 

In other news: Rowena has really grown on me this season. Crowley and that hamster was really the best part of this episode. Who thinks Rowena's demon lover will turn out to be a Styne?

[catrox14]

Wait, Rowena has a demon lover?