S01.E20: Best Foot Forward

[BookThief]

All episode I was asking myself: is the acting always this cheesy? There were too many freeze-frame close ups of people Looking Intense and Quizzically Eyeing The Camera. I still loved all the character moments and other developments everyone else has already mentioned, like the police work, and the camaraderie, and the Lucas/Abe story. But I felt this episode may have been directed by someone different or... something.

Yes! The scene where Henry finds the ballerina and says, "She's still alive!" he had this crazy face while the camera zoomed in before the commercial. Not to mention I thought he gave the line, as you wrote, cheesily. Weird.

 

Did anyone else go, "Greased Lightning!" when they showed the classic car with the nearly all white background? No, just me then?

[maraleia]

HenJo? JoHen?

 

I agree. I mean, I don't think he was so oblivious, but I loved it that even when he truly has feelings for Jo, he was genuinely happy for her and actually encouraged her to go to Paris and basically encouraged her to give herself a chance to fall for Isaac. No bitterness, no jealosy, just care and affection. That's a true friend there.

I vote for Jenry.

[Hero]

Is it weird how much I love how romantic Henry is? Ioan is gorgeous and his eyes and smile are really seductive. 

 

Does anyone know what the name of the song is that played at the end?

[biakbiak]

he knew Jo would have to deal with his death--by gun and by suicide, no less

 

As others have noted I would hope his first and nearly only thoughts would be about Abe not Jo. To not discuss his plans with Abe would be unforgivable.

 

I can't hate on Abigail. She tried to tell Henry several times that her aging and his not was becoming an issue for her and he dismissed her concerns because it didn't bother him, but it bothered her and he wouldn't understand that. She also knew that he would never give up on finding her and didn't want to put Abe in that position and I think she believed that she and Abe made him feel normal but that it was too difficult for her to continue that life so she gave up both of them so that she could have peace and Abe would be there for his father. I am not saying her decision was right or the only one but it's what she felt she had to do and I can't hate her for it; literally, it's not an issue that anyone on earth has ever had to deal with and Henry kept steamrolling over her concerns so she did something desperate and hard.

[fastiller]

The only flaw in her motivations for me was the fame part. Fame is fleeting. She'll be in the news Monday, and replaced by some drama with a Kardashian or some politician making dumb comments by Wednesday. She would have literally her 15 seconds of fame, then a small paragraph in a text book. Not foot-worthy to me.

 

Don't you mean she'd be a 'foot-note' in a text book?

[zannej]

This was an interesting episode. I have to say the detached foot looked fake though. The top part where it was supposed to be severed looked like foam painted red-- and the texture/heft of it didn't seem right in Henry's hands. I wonder if they played around with it on set-- tossing it around and goofing off. I can be forgiving of the bad special fx because they were trying and I don't think this show has a huge budget.

 

I actually suspected early on that the woman had someone cut her foot off-- although I thought that it was because she was tired of dancing and just wanted an easy out. I figured she was just in pain and overwhelmed and couldn't deal with it anymore and that she was so desperate that she went to those extremes. I wasn't too surprised when they explained why she had it done. Although, it does seem pretty asinine-- but then, people do some really stupid things without realizing how it will impact the rest of their lives.

 

I felt sorry for the old ballerina who was being kicked out-- both because she was in pain and because she was being shoved aside because she was getting old. 

 

I admit that I do not like the pairing of Jo and Henry as a romantic couple. I just don't see any romantic chemistry there. I would love to see a show where the male and female lead are just friends and don't hook up. Usually when they do hookup, it changes the dynamic and often ruins the show. I agree that Isaac comes off as a bit too smarmy.

 

Man, when Henry described just getting lost in Paris and people were supposed to think it was romantic, I was thinking "That's a terrible idea!" I would hate to be lost-- especially in a city that is known to not be very friendly to foreigners who don't speak French perfectly. I've known people who went to Paris and they said the Parisians will pretend they don't know English and will be very rude to Americans (and other foreigners). Paris in modern times is not the same as it was back when Henry was there. I just imagined someone wandering lost and not knowing how to talk to the people to order food (or being snubbed because they are foreign) and ending up getting robbed. Meanwhile, when Isaac showed he was the polar opposite by saying he had every moment planned--- ugh, also not my thing. But it was clear which one of those ideas appealed more to Jo. I think with Isaac, he's more in control. I really didn't understand what he saw in Jo and I felt like she was going along with him because she was flattered and thought he was nice and that she needed to move on, but that she wasn't sure where she stood.

 

I loved how Lucas decided to help out Abe in this one. I also love how Hanson used the powder on the mirror. I'm glad they are showing that he's actually competent.

 

As for the Abbigail angle, my take was that she really only planned to leave for a short time but then encountered someone who was a danger and she didn't want to lead that person to Henry and Abe (thus risking their lives) and her different names were not to hide from Henry, but to try to hide from that person. Maybe she somehow thought things could get resolved and she could go back to Henry and Abe later. Not really sure.

 

I admit that I sort of wish Lucas would find out Henry's secret and be sworn to secrecy about it-- although I don't know how well he'd be able to keep his piehole shut.

 

As for the gun, I wondered how the hell Henry got it cleaned up so well. I could have sworn there was some commentary as he was putting away that indicated he now had the option, but wasn't ready for it. I think he's curious as to whether it will work, but isn't ready to die just yet. It would be even more interesting if someone grabs the gun and shoots him with it and he does not die-- thus proving that the original gun is not an out. 

[molshoop]

 

I hope that Abigail is still alive

 

    If she is, there wont be any Jenry. Henry wouldn't cheat on her or divorce her.

   

 

   

[attica]

EVERYONE in the ballet world knows that the highest title of honor for a ballerina is Prima Ballerina Assoluta and one of the most famous is from CUBA!

 

I totally get your umbrage, and I'm sincerely empathetic to how enraging it is when shows get things wrong that are easy to get right, but I can't help but be tickled that, in a show that requires us to buy the notion of an immortal Holmesian crime-fighting ME, there's only so much suspension of disbelief a person can take, and you can't take no more.

 

And that is one reason I love it here.

 

Shit, Jo, go to Paris with Isaac, and dump his ass at the Louvre! (Which is totally easy to get lost in, btw.) Me, I'm still shipping Henry and Reece.

[fastiller]

I totally get your umbrage, and I'm sincerely empathetic to how enraging it is when shows get things wrong that are easy to get right, but I can't help but be tickled that, in a show that requires us to buy the notion of an immortal Holmesian crime-fighting ME, there's only so much suspension of disbelief a person can take, and you can't take no more.

 

And that is one reason I love it here.

 

Shit, Jo, go to Paris with Isaac, and dump his ass at the Louvre! (Which is totally easy to get lost in, btw.) Me, I'm still shipping Henry and Reece.

 

I was going to post something very similar, but it was about the fact that the beach they were at after they left the Oyster Bay Motel was clearly not in Oyster Bay.  Not unless there's a motel called the Oyster Bay Motel in Brooklyn/Queens along the shore.  But I thought it was silly of me to take issue with it when considering the framework of the show.

 

As to Paris: totally!  Get thee to the City of Light, Jo, and get theeself  (is that a word?) lost on thine own!  I'm neither loving nor hating CG, Jr., but I wouldn't mind if he turns out to be related to the slave ship, even if that means three immortals. 

[alias1]

I like CG Jr, generally, but he's been so off in these episodes.  And I see no chemistry between him and Jo.  I do see some between Jo and Henry but I'm really tired of the leads on every show ending up a couple.  Why can't they just be friends? 

[blackwing]

Jo should have gone to Paris and enjoyed the luxurious trip, so what if it's planned "every minute"? At least shell get to see everything, instead of wandering around, sitting in cafés all week. That's fun too, but if you never travel and get a chance, why not see the Louvre, the Eiffel Tower, the Palace of Versailles, the Arc de Triomphe, etc? It's not like she hated Isaac, just enjoy a trip with your boyfriend. :)

Yes, but she would have to spend every waking moment with Isaac, when she would rather be there with Henry.  She wants Henry to take her to Paris and show her the sights, along with the special knowledge of everything that he would undoubtedly bring.  "Incredible!  Here we have the Stone of Destiny!  This fragment of sodalite is known as the stone that saved Budapest!  Back in 1876, there was an unusual outbreak of typhoid...."

 

Going with Isaac is just rich stuffy guy showing off and throwing his money around.  Plus, I'm sure he'd presume that she would sleep with him.  He was presumptuous enough to cook her dinner in his own home on their first date, so I'm sure a trip to Paris would mean that she'd have to give it up to him.  And he'd probably think she'd join the mile high club in the bedroom on his jet on the way over.

 

Man, when Henry described just getting lost in Paris and people were supposed to think it was romantic, I was thinking "That's a terrible idea!" I would hate to be lost-- especially in a city that is known to not be very friendly to foreigners who don't speak French perfectly. I've known people who went to Paris and they said the Parisians will pretend they don't know English and will be very rude to Americans (and other foreigners). Paris in modern times is not the same as it was back when Henry was there. I just imagined someone wandering lost and not knowing how to talk to the people to order food (or being snubbed because they are foreign) and ending up getting robbed.

I've been to Paris twice and I know that's the image of Parisians, but I didn't encounter anything like that at all.  I don't speak French.  I'd politely ask in French if they spoke English, and found people nothing but helpful when I needed directions or help.  I find that as a general rule, no matter where you are in the world, you get treated politely if you are polite yourself.  

[slothgirl]

I don't have much sympathy for Abigail, this is a woman who abandoned her family and let them worry about her for years. Just because she couldn't take looking older.

It's really not that simple.

 

As has been debated on other threads (perhaps all of them)

Edited April 9, 2015 by slothgirl

[slothgirl]

Why did she leave? Because she was having a hard time dealing with the fact that her age was causing her both public and private anxiety and pain.

 

etc

 I wrote almost the same post on another thread!

 

I think especially hard is the emotional toll of not "growing old together". Her perspective on life and living would have changed substantially as she aged, and his hasn't. And won't. He is totally clueless about what "growing old" and "entering the twilight years" means or feels like because he's stuck in a time warp. It isn't just that she is with someone who looks 20 years younger; he actually IS 20 years younger. For all he has experienced, from the perspective of AGING, he has the mindset of a 40 year old... but not even, because even a 40 year old realizes that time is passing.

 

Couples often drift apart when one grows and the other stays in the same mindset that they had at the beginning of the relationship and that would be magnified 10-fold in this situation. They are quite simply in 2 completely different generations with totally different perspectives.  Things that happen are important because we only have a certain number of years to experience events. The "MOST IMPORTANT THING IN THE WORLD!!!!! " when you are 10 or 14 or 27 feel very different at 60. What you LET be important changes too as you age.

 

Plus, the events that happen around you, whether they are news or just the pop culture of your "time" give you a "common ground" with those of your generation. Henry is oblivioius to a lot of that because they aren't "the defining event of our lifetime" sort of things for him. For instance, war breaking out has a totally different impact on someone who has seen dozens of them already. Your focus changes from "What do I want to do with my life/" to "what's REALLY important in the little time I have left/".

 

In the beginning, he was older, even without the immortality, and that dynamic would work because he was more experienced at life due to both age and immortality. She was young enough to still have that "I'm invincible" attitude of youth. They were in the same place emotionally in regards to aging and life. Time passed for her, but it didn't for him.

 

Youth is about accumulating and gathering, while aging is about distilling and letting go of a great deal. Henry is still in the accumulation stage of life: factoids, knowledge, experiences, loves, and especially Emotional Maturity. Abigale had reached the age of distilling and letting go.

 

Every woman I know over 50 may want her physical looks back (mostly because of the external pressure of culture, not from an internal imperetive) but not at the expense of her current emotional maturity. (In the words of Lauren Hutton "I wouldn't want to be 20 again unless I could take my 50 year old brain with me" or something like that) But many of the men I know would trade it all to be young again which partly explains why they like younger women. It isn't just that men don't want to date a much older women; many women that age have no patience with much younger men either! Men often get forced (by health issues or whatever) to accept they are getting older, whereas many women (IME) EMBRACE the emotional and psychological changes that come with maturity and feel in many ways, it's the best time of their life.

 

She really WAS a 60'ish year old involved with a 40 year old (who still had much of the perspective of a 20 year old) She didn't just LOOK like his mother, she probably was starting to FEEL like his mother!

Edited April 9, 2015 by slothgirl

[Melgaypet]

I agree with you, slothgirl, that Abigail's feelings were far more complicated and fraught, and shouldn't be boiled down to simple vanity on her part, and it's clear that she was a very loving wife and mother prior to her leaving; but I can't help but feel that to disappear entirely was cruel, particularly to Abe.

 

Anyway. Part of me laments Jo and Henry going there - must every show with an attractive male and female lead make it romantic? There is such a thing as platonic friendship and it's not always a lesser thing! - but since they are, I think the show has done it pretty well.

[slothgirl]

I just had another thought about the way we mature and experience life that Henry has yet to do (and may never do)

 

Whether it is Pearl Harbor, the dropping of the Bomb, the assasination of JFK, the 1st moon landing, or 9/11, people have events that are the defining moment/s of their generation and their life. I know WWII vets who can't remember their grandchildren's names but can recount exactly their experience of landing at Normandy. Most of us remember 9/11 in vivid detail - where we were and what we were doing - but millions of American who are now ADULTS, have little to no memory of it because they wer too young at the time. That number will grow and they will have some other major event that unfortunately (or maybe fortunately.. let's be optimistic!) fill that role.

 

But the event is something SHARED with others. It is about more than the self.

 

Henry's most significant event memory is all about himself. He really doesn't have anything like a shared cultural defining moment and he can't even talk about the most significant moment of his life. I can't imagine that kind of isolation! But that lack of shared experience for the things that were significant to Abigail's life would have been pretty painful to HER.

Edited April 9, 2015 by slothgirl

[possibilities]

It would have been an interesting show, to watch the relationship change as one aged and the other didn't. Would it be possible for Henry to adapt and comprehend the altered perspective of a partner? Is there a way for him to mature emotionally while staying physically static? I want to think it's possible-- after all, experiences do change people, but it's still possible to have a cross-cultural and relevant experience with a partner of a vastly different life experience than your own. But who knows how immortality itself would work? If they do by some miracle get renewed and put him in a relationship with Jo or Molly or someone else, they could still explore this idea.

 

I agree the severed foot looked like a very cheap fake. I actually think I have that exact prop-- I use it on Halloween. But I didn't mind. The show spends its money on period flashbacks from the 1970s and the 1870s and earlier. I don't need to dwell on a realistically gruesome bit of crime-related gore.

[Netfoot]

As to Paris: totally!  Get thee to the City of Light, Jo, and get theeself  (is that a word?) lost on thine own! 

 

I think it would by "thyself".

 

Going with Isaac is just rich stuffy guy showing off and throwing his money around. 

 

He'd have the Louvre closed so they could have it all to themselves.

 

Would it be possible for Henry to adapt and comprehend the altered perspective of a partner?

 

The last time we saw Abigail on the night she was upset by a waitress, I noted that Henry looked his most youthful, with a full head of thick black hair, and vigor in every step.  I thought he should read Time Enough for Love to get a few tips on remaining young while your wife ages.  Anyway, it didn't seem like he was capable of sympathizing with Abigail and her difficulty dealing with the circumstances, because he simply couldn't see that there was a difficulty.

 

I agree the severed foot looked like a very cheap fake.

 

Yes, but so did the foot of the dancer who was injecting herself on stage.  I concluded that the injecting scene with the foot that looked like it was knocked together by the props department out of a rubber chicken, was solely to make the other severed, rubber-chicken foot acceptable to us, the viewers.

 

Speaking of rubber-chicken feet, I'm not terribly fond of the ballet, and now I have another reason why.  Any dancers out there who are thinking of turning down a free trip to Paris so as to be with me... do what I tell you: go to Paris!

[ChocButterfly]

I agree with you, slothgirl, that Abigail's feelings were far more complicated and fraught, and shouldn't be boiled down to simple vanity on her part, and it's clear that she was a very loving wife and mother prior to her leaving; but I can't help but feel that to disappear entirely was cruel, particularly to Abe.

 

Exactly! It was more than cruel!

Look, Abigail may have had ALL the reasons in the world to leave, I don't fault her for that. What I faul her for is the way she did it. The worst thing that could happen to anyone is have a loved one missing. Not knowing what happened to them, if they're suffering, if they did suffer, if they think you forgot them, if they died, if they still live, if they're waiting to be rescued; all of that is torturing. Take it from people who've had a loved one missing. They beleieve is better to have them died than go missing, because the uncertainty of what happpened or what may be still happening to them is too horrible to contemplate.

 

Abigail could have left a clear note explaining the reasons why she left. She could have sent an anonymous letter saying she was fine and that she just needed to get away. She could have made sure Abe knew she was ok, without letting them know where she was. There are so many things she could have done instead of just dissapearing and leaving her loved ones wondering the worst about what happened to her and frantically looking for her. Whatever angst and pain she would have caused Henry by being honest to him about how she felt, would have been infinitely less painful than dissapearing and never let him and her son know what happened to her.

 

What she did was a cowardly and a selfish thing, specially regarding her own son. Whatever sympathy I had for her reasons of leaving went away with her stupid decision of solving her problems causing the biggest amount of pain she could have caused. That is of course, if she just left like that. There is still a possibility that she was kidnapped or some stupid convoluted plot of the sort.

[slothgirl]

What she did was a cowardly and a selfish thing, specially regarding her own son. Whatever sympathy I had for her reasons of leaving went away with her stupid decision of solving her problems causing the biggest amount of pain she could have caused. That is of course, if she just left like that. There is still a possibility that she was kidnapped or some stupid convoluted plot of the sort.

I was going to ask if we knew from something already revealed that she intended to cut all contact and disappear with no word. I only recall that she was getting some time to herself and then never came back. (once they finally told us anything at all). The police didn't believe she wanted to be found, but Henry was certain she wouldn't have freely disappeared. Abe apparently didn't believe it either, but up until the reveal that he still had all the stuff, he didn't seem to really wonder about her. I agree that choosing to leave without a word to her son would have been unjustifiable, which is why (until the most recent episode) I wondered if Abe actually HAD had contact with her at least once after she "vanished". Her absense never seemed to be an issue for him. In fact, for awhile I thought she had just died in the normal course of things.

 

My quibble is with people who can't understand why she'd leave Henry over something "superficial" like "looking old". I have no trouble at all seeing why she'd want to leave Henry. (as entertaining as I find the character)

 

They seem to have something up their sleeve for what happened to her, and my guess is that it will be one of 3 things:

 

1) It wasn't her intention. It was beyond her control and she is redeamed

 

2) It WAS her intention and when Henry realizes that, he will cease to remember her with love, leaving room for Jo (but even less trust after being betrayed TWICE)

 

3) We'll never know because they won't have time to wrap it up when the series gets cancelled.

 

At this point, I'm ok with either 1 or 2 as long as it isn't 3!

[Clanstarling]

 

Man, when Henry described just getting lost in Paris and people were supposed to think it was romantic, I was thinking "That's a terrible idea!" I would hate to be lost-- especially in a city that is known to not be very friendly to foreigners who don't speak French perfectly. I've known people who went to Paris and they said the Parisians will pretend they don't know English and will be very rude to Americans (and other foreigners). Paris in modern times is not the same as it was back when Henry was there. I just imagined someone wandering lost and not knowing how to talk to the people to order food (or being snubbed because they are foreign) and ending up getting robbed.

I have the same issues about getting lost in Paris. But I have to say - when I was in Paris, I did not encounter the stereotypical rude Parisian. In fact, people spoke to me in English when I mangled French, and were generally helpful. The only truly rude person I encountered was an American. In the waiting area at the big train station, he was holding forth - loudly - about how rude the Parisians were, and how awful his trip to France was in general. It never occurred to him that the French people in this station might speak English and that he was being offensive. He was, I suspect, the architect of his own experience. Which is not to say there aren't rude Parisians. I just didn't encounter them.

[Sakura12]

When I was in Paris, everyone we met was really nice and helpful and I don't speak any French, my mom spoke a little. A women that I was sitting next to on the Chunnel was telling me to be watch out because everyone was going to be rude. No one was, so I never experienced that either. However I would never want to get lost in any country. That does not sound fun or romantic. I love exploring but I like to know where I am and how to get back to my hotel. 

[ChocButterfly]

I think everyone is taking the "get lost in Paris" too literally. I mean, I thought by getting lost he just meant "wonder around", see where the streets take you with no planned destiny or itinerary whatsoever. You know, just walk around enjoying the city, with no maps or directions. That doesn't really mean you have to literally get lost. You may not know exactly where you are, but you know what part you're in the city and when you are done wondering, you just look at the street names or ask around and you'd immediately know how far you are from the hotel or where is your exact location on the map. No big deal.

 

I have done this, several times in Europe. I love just wondering around the medieval streets with no itinerary or directions and just discovering what's in the way to encounter. There's no danger in this. I mean, if you  find yourself entering a rough part of town, you immediately notice and you just back away. That is actually the best way to discover some cities. Not with tours or planned itineraries like Isaac wanted to do.

Edited April 10, 2015 by ChocButterfly

[Whimsy]

There's been complaints that the episode threads have turned into Abigail talk mostly. I've created an Abigail topic here http://forums.previously.tv/topic/24828-abigail-the-long-suffering-wife/ for you to bring those discussions. I am open to renaming the thread. Put your suggestions in that thread.

[slothgirl]

There's been complaints that the episode threads have turned into Abigail talk mostly. I've created an Abigail topic here http://forums.previously.tv/topic/24828-abigail-the-long-suffering-wife/ for you to bring those discussions. I am open to renaming the thread. Put your suggestions in that thread.

CAn the posts we've already written be moved to the new thread? Does a mod do that or should we do that individually?

[sinkwriter]

 

I think Henry knew what Jo was getting at, but he was afraid to believe it. It's like when you see something happening that you never thought was possible and you truly don't want to leap to any conclusions because it would make you look soooooo foolish... and also it would crush your spirit to be wrong.

 

That's how I saw the scene. He was kind of holding his breath, as if he dare not hope she's going to say what it sounds like she's going to say, and he had to wait and let her say it, if she was ready.

 

I agree with ChocButterfly about the "getting lost" bit -- I don't think he was being completely literal about getting lost. I think he just meant wander the streets and happen upon interesting shops you might miss if you were too busy hurrying to get to the Eiffel Tower or the Louvre or some other destination. Instead, take time to savor the surroundings, together.

 

 

I vote for Jenry.

 

It's too much to hope for in this day and age, because it seems every show's fandom feels they have to mash character names together, but if I had my vote, it would be to have Forever be the only current-day fandom that chooses not to make a mash-up name for the show's potential romantic pairings.

 

It was cute once or twice, back when they first started doing it with Brangelina, but now it's so overdone and forced that I'm sick of it. To me, it's become a running joke that played itself out long ago.

Edited April 10, 2015 by sinkwriter

[zannej]

Thanks for the comments from those of you who went to Paris. I'm glad to hear that there are some friendly Parisians. I guess it is possible (and probably very likely) that things have changed since my friends went to Paris and were treated rudely. Maybe they went to the wrong places and encountered people who just happened to be snobs. I'd been told by friends that Parisians were rude, but if you went to some of the smaller towns that the people were wonderful. Maybe whatever snobbishness my friends described is something that became less acceptable though.

 

I'd hate to hear what foreigners would say about their experiences visiting places like New York were like. I went there once or twice and people were generally rude and I had a guy who made a huge deal out of me holding a door open for him. He actually came back in to the place to very loudly thank me and talk about how rude people were these days and how it was nice to have someone do something nice and he wished there were more people who were like that. 

 

And as much as people talk about "southern hospitality", I've found that people in the South in the US can be extremely rude to foreigners or "yankees" (whom they consider to be foreigners). But then, I've also encountered some very friendly people. I guess it depends on where you go and who you meet.

 

I have to agree about not caring for the combining names thing when people are couples. I also don't like it when celebrities are referred to as just their initials.

 

Back to the Paris thing, I think it would be interest if Henry went back to Paris in modern times and lamented how certain places no longer existed and about how technology was taking over and such. 

 

I think someone in this thread mentioned something about how it would be nice for Henry to compare notes with Adam about living for so long. As creepy as Adam is, if I were in Henry's place, I think I would want to ask more questions and learn more about history that was before my time. 

 

I find it interesting how Henry has watched people grow old and/or sick and die and he knows all about the different injuries and pain from observing the people-- and he mentioned having become ill and died from it as well but he's never experienced the physical aspects of growing old himself. So even as an outside observer, he might not quite understand how it feels. I think he is still sympathetic-- he just can't fully empathize. I could tell he felt very sad when the one sculptor died because, to him, she was just so young. It must be particularly jarring to him when people die young; although he may be accustomed to that because he lived in times where the lifespans were not very long.

[bros402]

 I too thought it had to do with insurance, but would she have been insured before she became a Prima? Which leads me into why do it before she had a chance to prove herself as a prima at least once, versus before? Is it better to be remembered for the "possibility of being the greatest" or "being the greatest cut down in her prime"? Either way, she got what she wanted and her brother died and she didn't seem to care at all. Her priorities were a mess, that being said I find it believable the character would be the type to come up with such a crackpot scheme. 

 

That's what I was thinking too - the company she performed for probably took out an insurance policy on her legs and she probably also held a private policy - I was thinking THAT would be the motive for the leg removal, not a mentally unwell individual obsessed with fame.

[Sakura12]

If Henry didn't mean get lost, why didn't he just take the time to really explore Paris or experience Paris? I suppose that doesn't sound as romantic. Nevermind, I answered my own question. When my family goes on vacations we do plan the touristy stuff (if you are never going back there you have to hit the landmarks), but always leave a day or two to just explore the city we are in walk down the streets, go to the shops and restaurants we happen to stop in front of. I wouldn't consider that getting lost though. 

[Clanstarling]

I think everyone is taking the "get lost in Paris" too literally. I mean, I thought by getting lost he just meant "wonder around", see where the streets take you with no planned destiny or itinerary whatsoever. You know, just walk around enjoying the city, with no maps or directions. That doesn't really mean you have to literally get lost. You may not know exactly where you are, but you know what part you're in the city and when you are done wondering, you just look at the street names or ask around and you'd immediately know how far you are from the hotel or where is your exact location on the map. No big deal.

 

I have done this, several times in Europe. I love just wondering around the medieval streets with no itinerary or directions and just discovering what's in the way to encounter. There's no danger in this. I mean, if you  find yourself entering a rough part of town, you immediately notice and you just back away. That is actually the best way to discover some cities. Not with tours or planned itineraries like Isaac wanted to do.

I don't know that "everyone" is taking it too literally. The context was pretty clear.  I, myself, wouldn't "get lost" in an American city either. I don't disagree that tours aren't necessarily the best ways to experience a city. You can go to the sights without going on a tour or keeping to a rigid itinerary.

 

I understand the appeal, but would disagree that "there's no danger in this." Rough parts of town aren't always apparent when you aren't familiar with the country or its language. Though I have "wandered" in Europe (where I lived a good part of my life), I've only done so in cities I knew well and felt comfortable in. And unlike you, for me at least one of those experiences became very dangerous and I was very lucky to get away. So I tend to be more cautious about getting away from the beaten path.

Edited April 10, 2015 by clanstarling

[attica]

Eh, I was harassed once on the Champs Elysee, so the 'beaten path' isn't necessarily a guarantee of smooth sailing either, Paris or anywhere else. But I certainly Nth the notion that Parisians/the French were lovely, kind and hospitable to me when I was there, as a ladyperson travelling alone* Plus, it's easy to orient yourself to either the Eiffel tower or Notre Dame, either of which is going to be visible wherever you are in town.

 

Whether you take Henry's advice as 'get lost' or 'go exploring while still knowing where you are', it's not bad advice. Even hole-in-the-wall restaurants will have a specialty dish that will knock off all the socks you've ever worn or ever hope to wear. And French people all have a way with scarf-wearing; Henry fits right in!

 

* With two exceptions only. The first was the dude harassing me, but that clearly wasn't a 'French are rude' thing so much as a 'Street Harassers are Pigs' thing. The second was the ticket taker at the Rodin museum, which ended up being funny. I was there pre-Euro, and as you walk up the path to the museum, there was a sandwich board sign with the ticket prices on it, which said 38 francs, So as I walked up the rest of the path, I looked in my wallet to see what currency I had. I had a 50 fr note, and then I looked for single fr coins to make change-making easier, which I didn't have. When I got to the window and handed over the 50, the ticket taker asked me (in French) if I had 3 francs  -- to make change-making easier. Since I'd already looked, I replied quickly, "Non!" She took my quickness as incomprehension, and asked me, in a snotty tone, in French, "Do you even know what I'm saying?" I smiled brightly and replied slowly, as if she were the dolt,  "Oui, je comprends. Mais je. n'ai. pas. trois. francs." (Thanks, junior high French classes!) Her face fell so far, so fast, she made change of the 50 so quickly, that I felt I'd just defeated the dauphin at Agincourt. And the museum itself was my favorite spot in all of Paris.

Edited April 10, 2015 by attica

[HalcyonDays]

I don't know that "everyone" is taking it too literally. The context was pretty clear.  I, myself, wouldn't "get lost" in an American city either. I don't disagree that tours aren't necessarily the best ways to experience a city. You can go to the sights without going on a tour or keeping to a rigid itinerary.

 

Oh, I never took Henry's comment as literally getting lost, as in you have no idea where you are in relation to your hotel or whatever. I took it as getting lost in your emotions, feelings, romanticism, vibe, culture and atmosphere of Paris. Like, just allow yourself to do whatever, go where ever your whims and fancy take you. It could be extended as getting "lost in your partner", because of a strong connection and love you have for your partner. That's how I took what Henry said. In a romantic ethereal way, not a literal "where the hell am I" way.

[sinkwriter]

 

 

Her face fell so far, so fast, she made change of the 50 so quickly, that I felt I'd just defeated the dauphin at Agincourt.

 

I give you major bonus points for the Henry V reference (or simply for the historical reference, if that was your point of view, LOL). Awesome.

[Shanna Marie]

I could have sworn there was some commentary as he was putting away that indicated he now had the option, but wasn't ready for it. I think he's curious as to whether it will work, but isn't ready to die just yet.

The way he's talked, he doesn't want to just die immediately now. What he wants is to live out a normal life like everyone else does, aging gradually, growing old with someone, and then dying. Presumably, the gun would just kill him right away rather than taking away the immortality but letting him live and then eventually die normally. So even if the gun could kill him for good, it wouldn't solve his problem and give him what he wants.

 

I have to say that I'd have been totally turned off if a man had approached me like CGJ's character did. Yeah, the man with money who can whisk you away in his private jet sounds like a fun fantasy, but I think it would actually be off-putting. I'd really hate it if a man closed an entire restaurant just for the two of us, and I wouldn't be comfortable alone on an airplane with someone in the early stages of a relationship. They've had what, three dates, maybe? Traveling alone abroad with someone I barely know would be off the table, and although I like to do a lot of research-style planning before a trip, having a firm agenda with every moment planned would bother me. I may have an idea of things I would like to see or do, but I mostly just wander when I travel, and if I see something that intrigues me, I can easily change plans. The real red flag was that he'd created this plan without consulting her about what she wanted to do or what she was interested in. They were going to be spending hours together on the plane. Couldn't he have brought a few guidebooks and spent the flight coming up with a plan together, if he had to have a plan? Even if there hadn't been anyone else in my life I might have found more interesting, I'd have bailed on that trip.

[slothgirl]

I have to say that I'd have been totally turned off if a man had approached me like CGJ's character did. ...  I'd really hate it if a man closed an entire restaurant just for the two of us, and I wouldn't be comfortable alone on an airplane with someone in the early stages of a relationship. They've had what, three dates, maybe? ... The real red flag was that he'd created this plan without consulting her about what she wanted to do or what she was interested in. .. spen(d) the flight coming up with a plan together,

He gave me the creeps from the first date. He prepared dinner alone in his home. I would have been out of there in a flash! Maybe Jo feels safe because she has police training, but I sure wouldn't have. Especially with a super rich guy who may think he is above the law.

 

Then clearing a whole restaurant? And now planning a trip where they will first travel (again) alone (this time with no esca[e for her unless she has a parachute!) Does none of this send up red flags for a person who deals all the time with crime? No, the "you and I aren't compatible in how we structure a vacation" red flag doesn't count. This guy gives off MAJOR control issue red flags as well as potential date-rape red flags. (for me anyway)

 

Something tells me the writers hadn't really intended any of that.. they were just inexplicably flummoxed as to how to demonstrate his vaste wealth and probably thought this was a good "sweeping Jo off her feet" storyline to delay her realization that she loves Henry. Even being showered with spending from a "romantic" gazillionaire is no match for true love!

 

They needed to run it past a few women in the real world who have to worry about their safety when dating and being controlled in relationships.

 

As if Jo is the sort of woman who could ever have been "bought" in the 1st place. (eyeroll)

Edited April 10, 2015 by slothgirl

[orza]

Some women are totally into that. It doesn't mean that they have been "bought". I see a guy who is trying too hard to impress a woman he really likes, but not one who is creepy and has major control issues. We never saw Jo clearly say to Isaac that he was coming on too strong and to dial it back. We saw that she was skeptical of some of what Isaac was doing but, not uncomfortable with it. Jo went along with it until she realized it was Henry she wanted.

[Netfoot]

Maybe Jo feels safe because she has police training, but I sure wouldn't have.

 

You'd have to do what she did.  Bring a gun!

[Whimsy]

As a reminder, let's keep this thread on topic to this episode. I've set up an Abigail thread and thrperes a "Small Talk" thread if you want to talk about the locals in different states or countries.

Thanks and happy posting!

[henripootel]

Back to the Paris thing, I think it would be interest if Henry went back to Paris in modern times and lamented how certain places no longer existed and about how technology was taking over and such.

Much of it would likely be recognizable to Henry as Paris was never destroyed in the war.  Probably be a lot cleaner than he'd remember - it's gotten a lot less seedy even since I started going there, not unlike the change in NYC since the 80s.  

 

Most folks speak a good bit of english and most will be charmed by your attempts to speak crappy french, so always give it a go.  For the occasional dick who pretends not to understand your french and refuses to use their english, here's the trick: apologize sincerely, since you know 'english is a very difficult language'.  Pretty much every time: 'But I speak very good english!'.  Gotta love french folks.

[zannej]

That's an interesting way of handling things.

 

I didn't mean that things were dstroyed by the war, but I'm thinking of development-- places that might have once been open grassland now being occupied by buildings or something. So, maybe a nice little romantic spot with trees and such is now a parking lot, department store, or apartment building. Not sure how much that happens in Europe though.

Edited April 13, 2015 by zannej

[jbrecken]

As an ME, Henry should realize that the weapon that killed him wasn't the gun; it was the bullet.  (or pellet or slug or whatever is loaded in that kind of pistol)

[zannej]

As an ME, Henry should realize that the weapon that killed him wasn't the gun; it was the bullet.  (or pellet or slug or whatever is loaded in that kind of pistol)

I actually thought about that, but it would be damned hard to find that bullet so I figured the writers fudged on that.

[attica]

I gotta say, Adam's notion that the weapon that made you immortal can take it away leaves me scratching my head. I don't see any internal logic in it. I mean, both of their respective weapons would likely have killed others, are there other immortals? How does he justify the magic that he thinks imbues the weaponry? Just the idea of it, sort of a supernatural 'hair of the dog', is stupid -- submitting yourself to a second injury from a single source on the assumption that the weapon will be all, "Okey dokey, now you're dead for good this time! I mean it!" 

 

The writers seem to have just pulled that out of their asses without thinking it through. And when you're in a universe of the fantastical, it's your obligation to at least think these things through.

[smiley13]

I gotta say, Adam's notion that the weapon that made you immortal can take it away leaves me scratching my head. I don't see any internal logic in it. I mean, both of their respective weapons would likely have killed others, are there other immortals? How does he justify the magic that he thinks imbues the weaponry? Just the idea of it, sort of a supernatural 'hair of the dog', is stupid -- submitting yourself to a second injury from a single source on the assumption that the weapon will be all, "Okey dokey, now you're dead for good this time! I mean it!" 

 

The writers seem to have just pulled that out of their asses without thinking it through. And when you're in a universe of the fantastical, it's your obligation to at least think these things through.

The whole premise of the show is not real, so it does not bother me that they made up the thing about the gun and the dagger being able to kill the immortals.

[Melgaypet]

The whole premise of the show is not real, so it does not bother me that they made up the thing about the gun and the dagger being able to kill the immortals.

 

"Fantastical" isn't the same as "nonsensical." I mean, what, exactly, has led Adam to this rather bizarre conclusion? Does anybody who is stabbed/shot with these particular weapons become immortal? (No, right? Adam - if he can be believed, which is admittedly a big "if" - said Henry is the only other immortal he's come across is 2000 years, IIRC) Why these particular weapons?  If I'm wondering about these things, shouldn't Henry? SHOW YOUR WORK, ADAM.

 

I'm all for shows with a fantasy or sci-fi premise, but such shows (all shows, really) have to follow some internal logic or they fall apart. So far, this new information doesn't make sense to me and I'm side-eyeing the whole idea. But I'm willing to see where it goes.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Melgaypet

[shapeshifter]

When Henry answered Jo's question about Paris with the vague 'get lost and then eat a random cafe,' I thought he was being careful not to mention anything that he should be too old to have seen.

I gotta say, Adam's notion that the weapon that made you immortal can take it away leaves me scratching my head...

How does he justify the magic that he thinks imbues the weaponry?...

Well, it's not any sillier than "true love's kiss" breaking a spell--which always irritates the hell out of me.

Editing for clarity: I could buy that "true love" could break a spell, but the kiss being the trigger bugs me. It seems so arbitrary.

Edited April 14, 2015 by shapeshifter

[Eneya]

French people, especially people in Paris suffer from the same "oh, god... tourists....". :) So some could be pretty unpleasant. However, i agree that I don't think Henry was literal. And in regards to getting lost... um... hello... everyone has a phone these days, not to mention the giant maps for tourists... one has to be particularly dense to really get lost or at least have a very bad luck and a weird combination of events. Every shop or cafe or store would have someone who speaks at least plausible English. :)

[attica]

SHOW YOUR WORK, ADAM.

 

Hee! Succinctly and pithily put.

[henripootel]

And in regards to getting lost... um... hello... everyone has a phone these days, not to mention the giant maps for tourists...

Well, I think that was Henry's (and others here) point: you don't want to go where the tourists go.  And like others, I don't think Henry was speaking of the thrill of genuinely not knowing where you are so much as not having seen the current area before.  It's amazing what you can find wandering - bits of old Paris that were cribbed together by craftsmen and never been fixed, a marketplace with amazing cheese, a friendly cat in a bookstore, sitting by the river drinking plonk out of a bottle and talking shit with students.  I'm with Henry - these are the things I remember, not the excellent meal I made reservations for and paid an excellent price.  I mean those experiences are nice but they're just don't engage you in the same way.  I'll give the writers credit for this one - I recoiled right there with Jo about Issac's description of a 'perfect' visit to Paris.  Not my style either and, yep, a deal breaker.

 

ETA: I should confess that I'm one of those people who can't get lost.  I was in my teens before I found out that folks can honestly not know where they are, and I just ... can't.  It's my x-man power, and it works in the arctic, in the southern hemisphere (although I have to flip directions around consciously), in featureless desert, deep forest, blackest night, and even underground.  I always hear 'getting lost' as metaphorical.  

Edited April 14, 2015 by henripootel

[Eneya]

I mean that nobody could be truly lost. If you wander off or feel uncomfortable open your phone and check a map, gps, whatever is my meaning. :)

For me Isaac was... two dimensional. Also, nobody in their right mind would like it presented like that. For me it was too hamfisted and forced.

[muffkins]

ETA: I should confess that I'm one of those people who can't get lost.  I was in my teens before I found out that folks can honestly not know where they are, and I just ... can't.  It's my x-man power, and it works in the arctic, in the southern hemisphere (although I have to flip directions around consciously), in featureless desert, deep forest, blackest night, and even underground.  I always hear 'getting lost' as metaphorical.

 

I know that feeling exactly.  From the time I was a small kid, my parents would park somewhere, on a ferry, parking lot, city street, look at me and say," Valerie, remember where the car is."   My brother, to this day, can't walk around a block without GPS.  I just don't understand it at all.  He got lost (with my kids!) walking to Tim Horton's from my house, which are 4 blocks apart.  Obviously, my children did not inherit my ability.