S10.E11: Jessa's Wedding

[luvbadtv]

 

I think some of Jessa's wedding pics are really pretty.  Don't like the messy look with the men without jackets, and 11 bridesmaids seems a bit OTT.  What does stick out to me, however, is that the Duggar kids are seriously in need of a good dermatologist, boys especially.  Maybe Boob could get a group rate.  We've seen trips to the dentist, wisdom teeth removal, surgeries, stitches, and lots of gross stuff.  How about a trip to the dermatologist?

Jbob is too cheap.  My son has gone to a dermatologist for years.  The creams he uses are expensive; over $100 for a small tube.  

[Vantraveller]

Lurker coming out of the shadows because I'm a tad confused.....

 

I noticed on the table set up to honor the grandfather's that grandpa Duggar's dates were listed as 96-09 I believe... I'm assuming they were birth and death dates, that would have made him 113 or 13 at death. Am I going crazy or did anyone else notice those dates? 

You are not crazy! Definitely says "born Feb 3 '96" and "died Feb 9 "09". I tried to post a link of a screenshot but can't get it to work.

[Barb23]

After watching the wedding again, I realized that Benessa didn't get a Duggar tradition -- a movie reenactment of their engagement like the Smuggars & Dullards got. Since MEchelle got so much enjoyment helping with the Dullards reenactment, I'm really surprised one wasn't done.

[3girlsforus]

The problem with just talking (or Skypeing) vs spending real time together is that it's perfectly normal, for instance, to say blue is your favorite color, but not realize that you reach for a green shirt more often than not because you look better in it and blue makes you look weird. So your significant other, thoughtfully, buys you blue clothes, and you don't like it, but you can't say why.

I'm not someone who thinks you have to live together to know someone. That comes with it's own set of issues. And I actually think arranged marriages can work very well (I've known a few.) But Jessa and Ben have benefited from spending time together, and Jill and Derick will require a bit more patience.

This is actually where the arranged marriage actually has one up on the courting relationships. With an arranged marriage, assuming it's a consensual situation and not something sick, you have two people who are willingly marrying someone they don't know and KNOW they don't know them. They are committing to this person and to the work it will take to get to know them, develop a relationship and make a life together. This is all out on the table. With Duggar courting, you have two people who are being told this is the way to a deeper, more solid marriage and that they are in love. They aren't honest about the fact that they don't really know each other. They think they are in an emotionally intimate relationship with someone they love. And then they define love by the giddy, excited feelings they get. So then they get married and that relationship isn't there. They didn't go into it realizing they need to develop a relationship that most people already have when they get married. Everyone who is married has to continue to develop and work on their relationship no matter how long they knew each other before but most people have that relationship in the first place to build on. It's being created from scratch for those courting like Jill and Derick but without the honesty of the arraigned marriage to even acknowledge that they need to build a foundation in the first place. 

[GEML]

Josh and Anna also had four months where they essentially were together all the time, and there wasn't much camera time. They were awkward, but because Josh ran his own business and she could be there with him, it didn't seem weird (I also think she genuinely helped with paperwork)

Jessa and Ben had the time before their marriage and there may still be times when they work together given that "Jim Bob" is their employer.

But Derick and Jill got so little. He came back to a real job. The baby immediately. No time beforehand. Morning sickness. A mother who is ill.

[JenCarroll]

This is actually where the arranged marriage actually has one up on the courting relationships. With an arranged marriage, assuming it's a consensual situation and not something sick, you have two people who are willingly marrying someone they don't know and KNOW they don't know them. They are committing to this person and to the work it will take to get to know them, develop a relationship and make a life together. This is all out on the table. With Duggar courting, you have two people who are being told this is the way to a deeper, more solid marriage and that they are in love. They aren't honest about the fact that they don't really know each other. They think they are in an emotionally intimate relationship with someone they love. And then they define love by the giddy, excited feelings they get. So then they get married and that relationship isn't there. They didn't go into it realizing they need to develop a relationship that most people already have when they get married. Everyone who is married has to continue to develop and work on their relationship no matter how long they knew each other before but most people have that relationship in the first place to build on. It's being created from scratch for those courting like Jill and Derick but without the honesty of the arraigned marriage to even acknowledge that they need to build a foundation in the first place.

You're exactly right. Also, most couples who enter arranged marriages have the support of their larger community; this is how their parents, siblings, friends, and everyone they know got married. There are people ready and able to HONESTLY help them deal with the inevitable challenges of marrying someone and subsequently getting to know them.

In Goddard-land, there's not only no honesty, there's very little history. Sure, by now they know other "courtship" couples who have married, but they're all still pretty young (and none of them are willing to talk about any downside their may be). But they don't have a long cultural history here. Have none of these children noticed that all the parents selling this model as the One Right Way, didn't follow it themselves? They're not part of a culture; they're first generation members of a cult. There are bound to be problems -- I can only assume there are already serious problems with some of these marriages, but we're not seeing that side on 19 Kids -- and no one actually knows the answers. Or even the questions.

I'd really like to see Joy or, say, Johanna walk up to JBoob and MEchelle and say, "Hey, so you guys went to school, you dated, you spent time alone together before marriage, and you postponed childbearing. How come your marriage isn't a total failure and you're not miserable people who sleep around on each other and have lost sight of the Lord?" Sigh. I suppose the parents would trot out their birth control/miscarriage story and how MEchelle's hot little lawn-mowing body caused her neighbors to divorce, or whatever the hell she says. "Look what we're saving you from!"

[GEML]

I'm not so sure no one knows the downsides. Again, this is where I question how sheltered the kids are. I think there is an attempt to keep married/un marrieds separate in part for this reason, but this is why I keep stressing why the enormous weddings and their almost free for all style is so important. If Jinger is talking to a friend who recently married and it's not going well, it's here that they have the quiet chance to catch up as friends and share information. THIS is why people make the trip for hundreds of miles to sit through a twenty minute service to get some ice cream and pie. The days leading up to that and the talking that goes about before, and after.

[Wellfleet]

I'm not so sure no one knows the downsides. Again, this is where I question how sheltered the kids are. I think there is an attempt to keep married/un marrieds separate in part for this reason, but this is why I keep stressing why the enormous weddings and their almost free for all style is so important. If Jinger is talking to a friend who recently married and it's not going well, it's here that they have the quiet chance to catch up as friends and share information. THIS is why people make the trip for hundreds of miles to sit through a twenty minute service to get some ice cream and pie. The days leading up to that and the talking that goes about before, and after.

 

Wow, if this is true, and it seems logical that it would be for at least some, that is truly pathetic.

[trimthatfat]

Dammit.  This wedding has made me like the Boob more than I thought I could.  It's so obvious that he loves his kids and isn't afraid to show it.  Quick!, someone talk me down.

I think Jim Bob's open affection with his children is quite cute. I believe him when he cried with Jessa and when he got tearful on Jill's wedding day. As dorky and annoying as he can be, I've never doubted his love for his children.

[Sew Sumi]

You are not crazy! Definitely says "born Feb 3 '96" and "died Feb 9 "09". I tried to post a link of a screenshot but can't get it to work.

Should be '36. He was in his early 70's when he passed, so that would be the actual answer. I'll watch it again today after soccer is over and double check it. 

[GEML]

Wow, if this is true, and it seems logical that it would be for at least some, that is truly pathetic.

I guess I don't see why it's pathetic. It's possible that there is a wedding every month or so, which means you get to really socialize more than people think. You homeschool, so it's not disruptive. Gas is cheap now, so you probably get to go more often.

[JenCarroll]

I'm not so sure no one knows the downsides. Again, this is where I question how sheltered the kids are. I think there is an attempt to keep married/un marrieds separate in part for this reason, but this is why I keep stressing why the enormous weddings and their almost free for all style is so important. If Jinger is talking to a friend who recently married and it's not going well, it's here that they have the quiet chance to catch up as friends and share information. THIS is why people make the trip for hundreds of miles to sit through a twenty minute service to get some ice cream and pie. The days leading up to that and the talking that goes about before, and after.

Actually what I said is, "No one's willing to talk about the downsides." And by 'no one,' per general conversational convention, I really meant 'hardly anyone.' And I'm sure people do take chances to talk to each other at the weddings, but in a cult environment, Someone's Always Listening. How safe do they feel saying things that violate the Real Truth, when you never know if you'll be overheard by a parent (not necessarily your parent) or a snitch? Do you not think that if two girls were seen quietly talking out of anyone's earshot, someone would make it their business to come over and either listen in or break it up? It's a real question; I really don't know how deep the cult mindset is in Goddard world. I assume it's far less controlled than, say, Scientology, but I don't know if it's stricter than any other orthodoxy, be it standard fundie or very strict Jewish or Muslim communities.

What they don't have is generations of history of people who are honestly living marriage and life under the same rules they're expected to followed. And I don't doubt that a lot of the kids know more than their parents think. I mean I was raised by the most liberal people in the world, and still would never have told them everything I thought, read, or heard. But I listen to the Duggar kids talking, and they really do sound ignorant.

[Sew Sumi]

Watching again...who is able to get to an event at 4 on a Friday in real life? Sierra noted that it was 21 hours away at that point. I dunno; my wedding had the dinner, but no rehearsal. The wedding was at my parent's house, since  both parents' churches refused to marry us.

 

And yes, whoever made JL's plaque fucked up big time. It said '96, rather than '36. If there was a Seewald born that year, I'd blame it, but Ben and Jessica were born in odd years. 

[HumblePi]

I don't follow the show regularly and have only seen a few episodes. Jessa's wedding is the second Duggar girl wedding that I watched. I saw the wedding of the other sister (don't know her name) to the tall goofy looking guy. I heard that after one month of marriage, she announced that she's pregnant. No surprise really.

 

Watching these weddings I truthfully felt about as uncomfortable as a hooker in church. It dawned on me finally that these people are actually REAL people, and I don't know if that was a good or bad realization. On one hand it's great that there's a woman out there in Arkansas that's willing and financially able to bear 19 children. On the other hand, my awareness of world hunger, poverty and disease makes me want to crucify them both for their irresponsibility. On the other-other hand, I applaud that they are "Christian" folk and follow what they believe to be the word of God.

 

I can't help but hope that their real marriages are truly as sublime and complete as they assume they will be. Innocence and trust are good virtues to have as long as you can live your life in a glass bubble of a town of 2,000 inhabitants and never have to venture outside that little microcosm that they've been raised in. Insulation from the outside world helps maintain the point of view that if you put your lives in the hands of the Lord, everything will be fine.

 

I felt a twang of sympathy for both Jessa and Benjamin (Bengerman and Jesser as the minister pronounced their names)  Jessa must have practiced her first kisses because she tilted her head WAYYYY to one side like they used to do in movies in the 'olden days' and Ben looked like he didn't know what to do except to have good breath and keep his lips tightly together. I almost felt embarrassed thinking about their honeymoon night. I think that sex will feel very awkward to them both for a very long time. I left that episode just shaking my head.

Edited April 4, 2015 by HumblePi

[Wellfleet]

I guess I don't see why it's pathetic. It's possible that there is a wedding every month or so, which means you get to really socialize more than people think. You homeschool, so it's not disruptive. Gas is cheap now, so you probably get to go more often.

 

If for no other reason, it's pathetic that time and most importantly, money, is being used to attend the weddings of virtual strangers, just for the opportunity to socialize. A majority of these families could, I'm sure, spend that money much better elsewhere. And for the same opportunities to socialize that most of us get - for free - while we stand in a line at the deli - or on the sidelines at a Little League game.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Wellfleet

[3girlsforus]

I'm sure there are people who know the downsides but there is really no encouragement to discover those downsides. If these kids were really allowed to choose courting rather than it being a requirement as a Duggar then there would be discussion of the pros and cons. But it's presented as the only way to do it and that it's good and only good. And so what if Jinger hears from someone at some function that their marriage has been difficult because courting isn't all giggle and bubbles. She's not allowed to do anything else and if she shows concern it would be considered something she needs to confess rather than discuss.

[GEML]

But these things are why evangelicals have been so reluctant to place Gothard followers under true cult status. It's a debate that has gone on for at least thirty or forty years now. Yes, there is the isolation. But it's not the isolation that most of us think of when we think "cult" and it's not the sheltering that we think of when we think "sheltered." Most people who come out of Gothard aren't any more or less cult-like than many other subcultures that are decidedly NOT cults, but there is no getting around the cult like status that Gothard himself had within the group.

It's really not easy to explain. In some ways, I could compare it to the Amish or Hutterites, who also use weddings for similar purposes, and no one finds them pathetic or nefarious. (Indeed, we tend to find them quaint or charming.) Or in other ways it's not unlike some isolated brands of any religion where the peculiarities of it become culturally heightened.

Do I think it's a cult? Yes. But I'm probably not using that term in the casual way most people are. So I'll stop using it here, because I don't want to cause confusion.

[msblossom]

As an evangelical, I would classify Gothardism a cultish, bc they emphasize the outward form of righteousness and strict adherence to living by a set of man made rules that Gothard compiled based on his interpretation of the Bible rather than the free gift of God. I don't see or hear them practice the grace of God. Anything that emphasizes an outward form of righteousness and works over Christ's forgiveness and grace for eternal life is a cult. It makes what Christ did on the cross void bc they're saying He didn't do enough. Their belief makes Christ impotent. And the truth is, what he did on the cross is a complete work of salvation and isn't dependent upon me to keep a bunch of ticky-tac rules and regulations, as if that would ever be enough anyway. As a Christian, I am gonna mess up, but I am forgiven by the grace of God, and the spirit of God is at work in me as I grow in faith. That in a nutshell is an example of how I see a living faith as an evangelical and a cult.

Edited April 5, 2015 by msblossom

[cereality]

Josh and Anna also had four months where they essentially were together all the time, and there wasn't much camera time. They were awkward, but because Josh ran his own business and she could be there with him, it didn't seem weird (I also think she genuinely helped with paperwork)

Jessa and Ben had the time before their marriage and there may still be times when they work together given that "Jim Bob" is their employer.

But Derick and Jill got so little. He came back to a real job. The baby immediately. No time beforehand. Morning sickness. A mother who is ill.

I agree with this. Josh and Anna had 4 months before she got pregnant, and they suggested that she used to go to work with him daily. He worked at his own car dealership and no dealership is jumping 40 hrs a week; I bet you there were days where no one came in or maybe 1 potential customer came in to browse for 15 min and then left. That gave J+A plenty of time to sit around alone talking and just being near each other; sure it was after marriage so there was nothing they could do if they found themselves incompatible, but they did/do have an ease with each other that comes only with spending time with each other. For all his flaws, you can tell Josh really loves Anna, and Anna totally supports Josh.

 

Ben and Jessa were lucky to have this time pre-marriage like a normal couple -- so there was months spent talking, sharing meals etc; sure they had chaperones and couldn't have truly personal conversations, but when a 10 yr old is prancing around as a chaperone -- you are certainly able to tell your fiancé about that time you led your city football team to the championship and how you think homeschooling with letting kids be involved in outside activities is best. They also are easy and comfortable around each other.

 

Derick and Jill lack that. I think it's a combo of a Skype courtship and no real "hanging out" around the house even once he returned from Nepal; Derick would show up to take Jill and her chaperones out to dinner, they'd spend 2 hrs together, and he'd drop her off. Interacting with a date at a restaurant is different than just sitting around your living room talking. Then they rush into marriage, and sure they had a honeymoon but I'm sure that was just about doing the deed as many times as possible and when they weren't in bed, they were probably pretty awkward around each other thinking "does he/she think I'm doing it ok; I hope we get pregnant." Not to mention Derick was worrying about his mom and probably just looking forward to getting home just to be closer in case she needed him at the hospital or anything. Then he gets back and a few days later returns to a 40 hr week job, so she sees him at lunch for an hr a day at the work cafeteria and probably from like 6-10 pm at night. It's different for these other couples without real work where getting to know their spouse is a 24-7 thing.

[3girlsforus]

msblossom... I would add that they elevate Gothard and his decrees above Jesus and Biblical teaching. They center their life around what Gothard wants vs. what Jesus wants. Centering your belief system around man rather than God makes it a cult to me, even though they would never acknowledge the place Gothard takes in their lives.

[Wellfleet]

I agree with this. Josh and Anna had 4 months before she got pregnant, and they suggested that she used to go to work with him daily. He worked at his own car dealership and no dealership is jumping 40 hrs a week; I bet you there were days where no one came in or maybe 1 potential customer came in to browse for 15 min and then left. That gave J+A plenty of time to sit around alone talking and just being near each other; sure it was after marriage so there was nothing they could do if they found themselves incompatible, but they did/do have an ease with each other that comes only with spending time with each other. For all his flaws, you can tell Josh really loves Anna, and Anna totally supports Josh.

 

Ben and Jessa were lucky to have this time pre-marriage like a normal couple -- so there was months spent talking, sharing meals etc; sure they had chaperones and couldn't have truly personal conversations, but when a 10 yr old is prancing around as a chaperone -- you are certainly able to tell your fiancé about that time you led your city football team to the championship and how you think homeschooling with letting kids be involved in outside activities is best. They also are easy and comfortable around each other.

 

Derick and Jill lack that. I think it's a combo of a Skype courtship and no real "hanging out" around the house even once he returned from Nepal; Derick would show up to take Jill and her chaperones out to dinner, they'd spend 2 hrs together, and he'd drop her off. Interacting with a date at a restaurant is different than just sitting around your living room talking. Then they rush into marriage, and sure they had a honeymoon but I'm sure that was just about doing the deed as many times as possible and when they weren't in bed, they were probably pretty awkward around each other thinking "does he/she think I'm doing it ok; I hope we get pregnant." Not to mention Derick was worrying about his mom and probably just looking forward to getting home just to be closer in case she needed him at the hospital or anything. Then he gets back and a few days later returns to a 40 hr week job, so she sees him at lunch for an hr a day at the work cafeteria and probably from like 6-10 pm at night. It's different for these other couples without real work where getting to know their spouse is a 24-7 thing.

 

Yep, agree here too - this all makes sense.

[Wellfleet]

Watching again...who is able to get to an event at 4 on a Friday in real life? Sierra noted that it was 21 hours away at that point. I dunno; my wedding had the dinner, but no rehearsal. The wedding was at my parent's house, since  both parents' churches refused to marry us.

 

And yes, whoever made JL's plaque fucked up big time. It said '96, rather than '36. If there was a Seewald born that year, I'd blame it, but Ben and Jessica were born in odd years. 

 

Maybe someone born in '96 did the lettering...

[msblossom]

msblossom... I would add that they elevate Gothard and his decrees above Jesus and Biblical teaching. They center their life around what Gothard wants vs. what Jesus wants. Centering your belief system around man rather than God makes it a cult to me, even though they would never acknowledge the place Gothard takes in their lives.

Yes, that's a great point; I agree.

[Pasha Kitty]

So true, Benjermin. 'As much as Bin isn't ever going to be a Rhodes Scholar and Jessa might be bitchy at least they know each other. Jill and Derick are still learning what each other's favorite food's and color's are for crying out loud. And they're about to become parents at any minute... '

 

Agreed that Ben will never be a Rhodes Scholar, but he seems sincere and down to earth.  Unlike Derick, who seems a bit aloof and 'above it all'. 

 

During the Jessa's Wedding episode, anyone notice Derick & Jill's talking head segment when asked what makes a good marriage?  Derick says 'speaking from experience.....'.  Duh, it's only been 9 months.  I cannot watch these two anymore, but I think Jill is the real reason: before the marriage, she was the sweet, helpful, ugly duckling Duggar daughter who I thought would be the LAST one to marry.  Now, she's a media whore who is very full of herself for no good reason.

 

[GEML]

I also think what is sad about Jill is that she's full of herself because she honestly thinks that she has done something perfectly. And I think Derick, for all the koolaid, wishes things could have been a little different. Just slowed down a little. A few more months, even, between each thing.

Whereas Jessa and Ben, as young and inexperienced as they are, weren't really going to gain a whole lot by waiting. It's possible that Ben might have gone to college, but honestly, if he wants to do that, he will find a way to make that happen. A college degree is probably the one thing you can actually do with children and a job if your wife is behind you. (My father did his PhD with three small children, a stay at home wife and a full time job.) And I don't see Jessa holding Ben back if that is what he wants, assuming that is what he wants. Another Duggar, yes. But not Jessa.

[Darknight]

You're exactly right. Also, most couples who enter arranged marriages have the support of their larger community; this is how their parents, siblings, friends, and everyone they know got married. There are people ready and able to HONESTLY help them deal with the inevitable challenges of marrying someone and subsequently getting to know them.

In Goddard-land, there's not only no honesty, there's very little history. Sure, by now they know other "courtship" couples who have married, but they're all still pretty young (and none of them are willing to talk about any downside their may be). But they don't have a long cultural history here. Have none of these children noticed that all the parents selling this model as the One Right Way, didn't follow it themselves? They're not part of a culture; they're first generation members of a cult. There are bound to be problems -- I can only assume there are already serious problems with some of these marriages, but we're not seeing that side on 19 Kids -- and no one actually knows the answers. Or even the questions.

I'd really like to see Joy or, say, Johanna walk up to JBoob and MEchelle and say, "Hey, so you guys went to school, you dated, you spent time alone together before marriage, and you postponed childbearing. How come your marriage isn't a total failure and you're not miserable people who sleep around on each other and have lost sight of the Lord?" Sigh. I suppose the parents would trot out their birth control/miscarriage story and how MEchelle's hot little lawn-mowing body caused her neighbors to divorce, or whatever the hell she says. "Look what we're saving you from!"

That what I wonder too. JimChelle dated. And everytime when they say da tinea ds to divorce they're talking about themselves. So JimChelle is going to divorce anytime soon since they've dating.

[Temperance]

I was watching the wedding episode again tonight. I think Jessa and Ben had the best wedding ceremony, but Derrick and Jill had the better reception. I'm relieved and confused that neither Duggar daughter had to promise to obey her husband the way Anna promised to obey Josh. 

 

After watching the wedding again, I realized that Benessa didn't get a Duggar tradition -- a movie reenactment of their engagement like the Smuggars & Dullards got. Since MEchelle got so much enjoyment helping with the Dullards reenactment, I'm really surprised one wasn't done.

I too noticed this. I think the fact it was a scavenger hunt all round the state would have made a re-enactment difficult. And long. Then that front hug in Thorn Crown Chapel. 

 

Another big difference is the lack of the covenant marriage or at least the mention of one. It wouldn't surprise me in the least that Jim Bob wanted to make sure the college educated with a good job would find it harder to divorce than the 19 year old dude with out as much education and a good job. 

[andromeda331]

Derick says 'speaking from experience.....'.  Duh, it's only been 9 months.

 

Did that remind anyone else of that Everyone Loves Raymond episode after Robert and Amy get married and think they know everything about marriage?

[Barb23]

Did that remind anyone else of that Everyone Loves Raymond episode after Robert and Amy get married and think they know everything about marriage?

I remember that episode. Didn't Amy & Robert recommend a marriage book?

[Readalot]

My thoughts -

- I think one of the production crew noticed that Jess had not eaten, handed Bitchelle a bar and told her to give it to Jessa.

- JimBoob did not buy at least a decent snack (sandwich tray, chips etc) for the reception because he has taught his family to load up when they are free goods around. And load up x 1200 people is a lot of food. Ice cream sundaes can be served without people questioning controlled portions.

- Guinn is awesome. So classy, she really can't compare to Bitchelle. I hope she becomes close to Jessa, she is a better role model.

- loved that the first kiss was behind closed doors. All first kisses should be private!

- I think Jessa settled for Bin but now they have a good friendship. Hopefully it's enough foundation for a lasting marriage.

- why Bitchelle did you have to mention it at all let alone a few times that JimBoob was giving away Jessa? She is such a bitch.

- loved that the whole family was not in the wedding party.

More later...kids are up...its Easter time! I hope you all have a wonderful day!

[JenCarroll]

But these things are why evangelicals have been so reluctant to place Gothard followers under true cult status. It's a debate that has gone on for at least thirty or forty years now. Yes, there is the isolation. But it's not the isolation that most of us think of when we think "cult" and it's not the sheltering that we think of when we think "sheltered." Most people who come out of Gothard aren't any more or less cult-like than many other subcultures that are decidedly NOT cults, but there is no getting around the cult like status that Gothard himself had within the group.

It's really not easy to explain. In some ways, I could compare it to the Amish or Hutterites, who also use weddings for similar purposes, and no one finds them pathetic or nefarious. (Indeed, we tend to find them quaint or charming.) Or in other ways it's not unlike some isolated brands of any religion where the peculiarities of it become culturally heightened.

Do I think it's a cult? Yes. But I'm probably not using that term in the casual way most people are. So I'll stop using it here, because I don't want to cause confusion.

As far as my concern for the young people involved, what's different about the Amish, etc., is that they really have been doing the same thing for many generations. There's a social infrastructure there. The people being guided into this manner of courting and marrying, do actually have parents and grandparents who did the same (and usually siblings, aunts, uncles, cousins, neighbors). They have people to talk to, and if there's a reluctance to discuss the downsides, at least they've seen it play out many times. Amish brides and grooms have a pretty good idea of what they're walking into. Gothard-ism is relatively new, and yet you have all these people promising their kids that this is the One Best Way, when they didn't do it that way themselves. It's troubling for me.

What's cult-ish about Gothard-fundamentalism is that the rules laid down by Our Leader seem to take equal or greater importance to the actual faith. But they live within non-Gothard communities; they're not isolated like, say, Scientolgists who are literally kept in compounds. So yeah, it's cult-like in some ways, and un-like in others.

Edited April 5, 2015 by JenCarroll

[GEML]

But one can make the argument that you only get one childhood/lifetime, so even having something that goes on for generations is only as relevant as it is in so far as it impacts your childhood/lifetime. The Fundamentalism world that Gothardism takes place within is actually a very well established one - I'm at least fifth generation myself, and that wouldn't be counting deeply religious but still extremely mainstream family who were, say, Methodist or Presbyterian. I can actually trace my religious fanaticism all the way back to before Henry VIII and Martin Luther, but none of that had the impact of knowing and seeing people in my childhood. Which is pretty much the same experience of the Duggar children, with the possible exception of the oldest three children, who may remember their lives before Gothard. It might also explain why Josh went full Gothard (at least at first, and may be regretting some of it now) but John David and Jana are resisting it in the way the know how - by not marrying and having children of their own.

[TheDoctorsCompanio]

Only seen the tail end of the special, but I will say I loved that Jessa wanted to recreate the picture of Michelle holding the wedding certificate and winking. Thought that was cute and surprised Jill didn't do it.

Was mildly annoyed when the bridal party left, Derick had to dip and kiss Jill.

[SmallTownMom]

I live smack in the middle of Amish country (Lancaster Co., PA), and the Amish are not nearly as sheltered as the Duggars.  They go to school (usually an Amish one-room schoolhouse), socialize with other families, learn a trade, work off the farm, and have singings and other gatherings of young people, and the girls may even go on buggy rides with the boys.  Open carriages only until you are married, I believe.  But they do have friends and are allowed to have fun with kids their own age.  We often see groups out walking, playing volleyball, riding bikes, and playing street hockey on the parking lots of grocery stores that are closed on a Sunday.  The boys play and the girls watch, but there is usually a HUGE group having fun and actually hanging out in boy/girl groups who are not their own siblings.  We have also seen couples out on what appears to be a group date at restaurants, usually smorgasbord type places, or at Dairy Queen.  And no parents in sight, listening to everything.  They have a lot of fun, like kids should have.  They even have their "rumspringa" or "running-around" time before they join the church and settle down.  You'll see produce stands right at their farms, and even see the younger ones working them, talking to people and gaining confidence in themselves and learning a little about the outside world.  They don't, however, like tourists taking their pictures.  Somthing about "graven images", I believe.

 

The Duggars have none of the fun as listed above.   But they do take plenty of selfies and whore themselves out on TV.  So modest and righteous of them.

[BitterApple]

I too hate the practice of the "marrieds" ditching their escorts to walk down the aisle and smooch with their spouse. It's so immature and cheesy. I seriously doubt Bin's friends were lusting after Jill.

[Apple Clark]

It's so sad to me that they can't have outside-the-family-friendships. (It's also sad that people actually have to specify "outside the family".) I think it's sweet that Jessa and Jinger, for example, are so close. Most sisters (in my experience, with people I know and myself) aren't close, and that's putting it really mildly. But everyone should be able to reminiscent about childhood friends, wether they met them from church (like I did), school, or whatever the case may be. They grew up with these people, they didn't choose them. They didn't see a person at church and think, "That girl/guy seems nice, I'm going to go say hi."

No, they chose the sibling that annoyed them the least. I have never gotten along that well with my family, we don't mix. I visit, we haven't cut ties or anything like that, my mom isn't like J'Chelle, my dad isn't a pervert like JBoob. It's just that I'm the one who wanted a few tattoos, I'm the one who curses occasionally, I'm the one with the temper, I was just "that kid". I am a Christian though, and always will be. My point in saying that, is what if one of the kids turns out like that? If one of them comes home and shows them a tat? What would Bitchelle do if one of her kids was diagnosed with a bipolar disorder? (Or really any other mental illness? I can confirm that it would be hard to tell your parents that you think you're depressed or anything because I certainly did). I'm worried about them in all honestly. I can see Jana being depressed and holding it in, which is the hardest thing ever. I was all over the place with this, but does any of it make sense?

[Wellfleet]

I too hate the practice of the "marrieds" ditching their escorts to walk down the aisle and smooch with their spouse. It's so immature and cheesy. I seriously doubt Bin's friends were lusting after Jill.

 

Yep, this grabbing of one's wife and planting a big wet one on her right in the middle of the recessional looks - say it with me, everyone - so very immature! Josh and Derick might as well have yelled "Hey look, I got me a woman too!!"

Edited April 5, 2015 by Wellfleet

[truthtalk2014]

 

 

I think some of Jessa's wedding pics are really pretty.  Don't like the messy look with the men without jackets, and 11 bridesmaids seems a bit OTT.  What does stick out to me, however, is that the Duggar kids are seriously in need of a good dermatologist, boys especially.  Maybe Boob could get a group rate.  We've seen trips to the dentist, wisdom teeth removal, surgeries, stitches, and lots of gross stuff.  How about a trip to the dermatologist?

I still wonder if many of their skin problems could be diet related.  Many times eating dairy and junk can cause lots of problems.  I didn't know until I was an adult that I am not a dairy person.  Helped tremendously when I cut it out (nearly).  We know they eat so much TTC and junk at that house.  How can we expect any of them to have normal skin.  I have a feeling that Jessa's will improve greatly now that she has moved and and seems to be going in a healthier direction with BenGermin.  

[Barb23]

Yep, this grabbing of one's wife and planting a big wet one on her right in the middle of the recessional looks - say it with me, everyone - so very immature! Josh and Derick might as well have yelled "Hey look, I got me a woman too!!"

From what I could see, Derick really dipped Jilly back. I'm sure she knew it was coming as Derick said in a TH he planned it, but I don't think that was the best move for a pregnant lady. What if he somehow slipped & she landed on the floor? Hopefully she would have been OK but I'm just a nervous Nellie about these types of things.

[GEML]

But my point was that I don't think that most Fundies, even Gothard Fundies, are as isolated as many people think that they are. The Bates children certainly interact far more in their community than the Duggar children, and the Keller family was very active in their church. Ben's family isn't Gothard, but Vision Forum, often considered a sibling subculture, and it's pretty clear he was involved in a church and perhaps even extra curricular or after school or co-op activities. It's the Duggars that are the exception to even their own culture - which is why I made the comparison to other extreme subgroups such as the Amish or Hutterites. They are standoffish even within their own group - which is why I think Jim Bob has had some trouble finding acceptable people for his children to marry.

[Mrsjumbo]

From what I could see, Derick really dipped Jilly back. I'm sure she knew it was coming as Derick said in a TH he planned it, but I don't think that was the best move for a pregnant lady. What if he somehow slipped & she landed on the floor? Hopefully she would have been OK but I'm just a nervous Nellie about these types of things.

I saw that too & wondered how she is so flexible to bend back like that while *unable* to paint her own toenails? (snicker)

[GEML]

I actually didn't even see it. With so many bridesmaids, I didn't care and was watching the outside doors.

[JenCarroll]

They're certainly self-isolating. I sometimes think they're "Church of Jim Bob" more than anything. I have the feeling they've taken things that fall into the category of "We can't be bothered, times nineteen," like sports and other socialization opportunities, and just conveniently labeled them "Un-Godly."

And now I've moved pretty much completely away from the thread topic. Any further thoughts on this will be on the Religion thread; feel free to respond over there.

[skatelady]

 

Barb23, on 05 Apr 2015 - 8:01 PM, said:

From what I could see, Derick really dipped Jilly back. I'm sure she knew it was coming as Derick said in a TH he planned it, but I don't think that was the best move for a pregnant lady. What if he somehow slipped & she landed on the floor? Hopefully she would have been OK but I'm just a nervous Nellie about these types of things.

I saw that too & wondered how she is so flexible to bend back like that while *unable* to paint her own toenails? (snicker)

 

She's probably "missing a muscle", like Mechelle. You know, that muscle you need when you have to do things you don't feel like doing.

[andromeda331]

I remember that episode. Didn't Amy & Robert recommend a marriage book?

 

 

Yes I think it was called Marriage is an Amusement Park or something like it.

[Chai]

Cmr 2014 posted in  Duggar fashions that everything about Jessa's wedding, the color of the dresses to ice cream in the parking lot suggest that this was supposed to be a summer wedding. For whatever reason it was  pushed back . This makes perfect sense, and now I wonder why her wedding would've been pushed back? Any ideas?

[3girlsforus]

If that's true and it really was pushed back I'd guess it was to keep Jill and Jessa's weddings from being too close together. 

[Absolom]

It could have been inexperience or lack of forethought.  She was supposedly planning the wedding in the summer so summery things were what was out and prominent.  I think orangy dresses look autumn to me except the material should have been heavier.  I don't like the newsboy look so wouldn't have appreciated it in any season.

 

At one family wedding a few years ago the MOG was very heavily dressed.  She had shopped the sale racks and also shopped in February for a June wedding.  She ended up in winter weight silver layered thing that did look a lot better than Michelle's  It was for a summer garden wedding though and looked out of place.  Sometimes people simply don't think ahead.

[Barb23]

If that's true and it really was pushed back I'd guess it was to keep Jill and Jessa's weddings from being too close together.

Plus with them, the wedding seems like it has to be in the 3 month range of the engagement.

I was a November bride, too, even tho we wanted a Sept or October wedding. But due to the logistics of availability at both the church & hall, we had to go into November (& that was planning a year ahead, not 3 months.) Having a November wedding didn't really affect any of our plans as we had a sit down dinner (enough chairs for everyone)in a hall, not a shlepped together ice cream party in the parking lot.

Unlike Sierra, I did plan ahead for a cooler day. I bought a fake fur white jacket to wear over my "going away" dress & it got warm that day, in the 70's. I loved that jacket & even coordinated the dress to go with it & wore it anyway even though I was sweating underneath. BTW, this was 1984 when the bride & groom changed into going away clothes, which were still dressy, rather than wearing their wedding attire. Looking back, that was a waste as we changed into more comfortable clothes when we got home to wear on the drive to our honeymoon.

[Bingermin]

You are not crazy! Definitely says "born Feb 3 '96" and "died Feb 9 "09". I tried to post a link of a screenshot but can't get it to work.

I swore I thought that's what I saw! I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw that.