S10.E11: Jessa's Wedding

[Darknight]

As far as my concern for the young people involved, what's different about the Amish, etc., is that they really have been doing the same thing for many generations. There's a social infrastructure there. The people being guided into this manner of courting and marrying, do actually have parents and grandparents who did the same (and usually siblings, aunts, uncles, cousins, neighbors). They have people to talk to, and if there's a reluctance to discuss the downsides, at least they've seen it play out many times. Amish brides and grooms have a pretty good idea of what they're walking into. Gothard-ism is relatively new, and yet you have all these people promising their kids that this is the One Best Way, when they didn't do it that way themselves. It's troubling for me.

What's cult-ish about Gothard-fundamentalism is that the rules laid down by Our Leader seem to take equal or greater importance to the actual faith. But they live within non-Gothard communities; they're not isolated like, say, Scientolgists who are literally kept in compounds. So yeah, it's cult-like in some ways, and un-like in others.

But doesn't the Amish give their kids a choice to stay or not.

[dillpickles]

But doesn't the Amish give their kids a choice to stay or not.

Yes, they do. I believe they also have a day where they get to experience normie life and party it up, so they see what they're missing. The Duggars get none of that.

[GEML]

Some sects do and some don't. Groups in Lancaster do, but others consider rumspringa an outmoded idea that is simply too dangerous in today's world.

[3girlsforus]

Some Amish sects still actively shun as well so you might get a choice but you are leaving your family completely. I don't know that the Duggars would actively shun their kids to the point of not only cutting off communication with them but forcing the other unshunned kids from doing the same. 

[GEML]

I think nearly all fundamentalist families use short term shunning to some extent. It's not what the Amish do (and not all Amish carry it to the extreme that we think) but I think nearly every Fundy family I know had had a serious break that runs through it. Over time, the break often heals, and it's not so different from secular families which often schism for no religious reasons, but it is a tactic that is used, and often it's used by those who leave as often by those who stay. It's very sad, no matter what.

[MelineB13]

My favorite part of the episode was when Jessa was fixing Ben's hair and looked like she was about a second away from mauling him.  Say what you will about them, but they are definitely both very attracted to each other.  I'm glad that they haven't announced a special blessing yet.  Good on them having some fun first.  

 

Jim Bob and his little speeches to Jessa just made me think of that Friends episode where Monica is giving the toast at her parents' anniversary party and is determined to make everyone cry and tries to pull up dead parents and dead dogs.  Every time he opened his mouth a nice little "so touching" statement came out. 

Edited April 6, 2015 by MelineB13

[Literata]

I still wonder if many of their skin problems could be diet related.

 

Acne has a genetic predisposition, and in most teens and young adults, there's a bacterial component and antibiotics and topical solutions do the trick.

I wonder if the Duggars simply believe, as my in-laws do, that acne is not a big deal because "it's just something teenagers get." That attitude irritates the crap out of me because acne can be disfiguring and can affect self-esteem, and again, for many people, it's a pretty easy fix.

[Honeycocoa]

This is all hypothetical. It sounds like both Jill and Jessa were given  a sum of money to pay for their wedding and honeymoons.  Jill and Derrick went to North Carolina which looks to be a $350 plan ticket and they stayed at a rented house. Jessa and Ben went to Paris and Italy which looks to be about $1,500 a ticket and I assume they stayed in hotels.  Which is leading me to believe Jessa's wedding was at least $5,000 cheaper than Jill's because they spent so much more on the honeymoon. Which explains the lack of chairs, heaters, decent dresses and food.

 

They really should have let her have the smaller ceremony at Thorncrown...

[Sew Sumi]

I don't remember any chairs, decent food, or clothing at Jill's wedding either. Remember those wretched, patched-together bridesmaids' dresses? TBH, Jessa said she'd re-use Jill's decorations, but I don't remember seeing much in the way of decorations at either wedding, maybe more at Jill's ONLY because they showed the present table, and the other kitschy touches. They didn't get into the logistics of setup for Jessa's wedding at all; TLC instead used that time to show the actual ceremony (which I appreciated, even if they edited the shit out of the very end). 

 

Jessa's after-party seemed to be a lot smaller than Jill's, probably due to the fact that Jill could invite people to the TTH who never entered the place. Jessa's party, from the pictures I saw, was all indoors. THAT is one place Jessa definitely saved money that could be spent on the honeymoon. I read that Jill's after-party was about 600 of her "closest friends" (although I remember an "I'm pregnant!" announcement made by a couple neither JB or M knew). I remember people posing with Kirky Cameron at Jessa's party, but it couldn't have been more than a couple hundred in the house. 

[GEML]

It might also be that Derick contributed more money, or the Seewalds did - we have no way of knowing. Or perhaps Jill and Derick wanted the larger house and actually do pay more rent than Ben and Jessa do. Or maybe Jill and Derick spent less overall, because they are paying for things such as Derick's education, or saving for something such as a future mission....the possibilities are pretty endless if we see each family as a real separate unit and not just sisters competing with X amount of money.

[cmr2014]

Given the fact that these girls have absolutely no experience making any decisions on their own, and are given $10,000 and told to plan an event for 1500 people that they come up short  -- even with the "help" of a "wedding planner."

 

I'm sure that they have attended fundie weddings before and had some idea of the appropriate level of formality and the sorts of refreshments that are customarily provided. But attending an event, and planning an event are very different things. I'm not surprised that things that seem obvious to us -- like chairs -- were forgotten. I'm also not surprised that things that pertained to them (like dresses, flowers, and carriages) were meticulously planned, while things that pertained to their guests -- like chairs -- slipped through the cracks.

[DangerousMinds]

And apparently the "wedding planner" didn't think of those things either.

[NikSac]

They really should have let her have the smaller ceremony at Thorncrown...

 

I don't think there was any chance of this happening, but I sure would've loved to see it. They both seemed to really love that place. Much's I hate to use the words, I think it would've been more special and precious to them to celebrate there. Hopefully they see the engagement as special and can go back to celebrate that instead of the cast-of-thousands parking lot reception.

[sevenatenine]

I thought maybe Jill's trip to Nepal took the place of her international honeymoon.

[BitterApple]

I think if Jessa could have pocketed the 10k and eloped she would have done so. The massive wedding was just a cultural requirement.

I also wonder if the lack of chairs was done purposely to discourage people from hanging around. They probably wanted to get rid of the looky-loos so they could start the real reception at the TTH.

[floridamom]

I have seen Jim Bob dressed up in a suit many times and he obviously has nice, dark colored suits in his closet. Please, tell me why, then did he choose to wear that awful, shiny, cheap looking light colored suit to a wedding in November in Arkansas? Also, please tell me that he didn't wear black sneakers with it! Just awful.

Josh and Anna look like they are trying to show the Duggars that they have learned how to dress since they now live in DC and are "big wigs" in politics there...Look at Josh's suit and Anna's big girl high heels and black after 6 dress she wore to an afternoon wedding. Once again, Michelle wore shoes to that event that would be appropriate to wear shopping in WalMart and a dress that is suitable for an office job...but, I will say, she did improve a great deal over that horrible silver Christmas tree outfit she butchered for Jill's wedding....Do I sound petty here guys? Hopefully.  All that's important, really, is that Jill delivers safely.

[Absolom]

Michellle's dress looked to me as if she shopped in the MOB section of a bridal store.  It's right in line with the selections on offer and no one I know wears chiffon to work.  

[Literata]

I watched the wedding again and was stunned by the interaction between Jessa and MEchelle at the end, right before Jessa and Binjermin left. Jessa and her mom actually seem to have somewhat of a relationship; MEchelle seemed to almost be having some appropriate maternal reactions, as compared to her auto-responses when Jill got married. Of course, I'm suspecting it all has to do with her not-so-veiled desire to jump Bin, but it was surprising nonetheless.

[Wellfleet]

I watched the wedding again and was stunned by the interaction between Jessa and MEchelle at the end, right before Jessa and Binjermin left. Jessa and her mom actually seem to have somewhat of a relationship; MEchelle seemed to almost be having some appropriate maternal reactions, as compared to her auto-responses when Jill got married. Of course, I'm suspecting it all has to do with her not-so-veiled desire to jump Bin, but it was surprising nonetheless.

 

Agree, I think this really is deliberate on Me-chelle's part, although she might not even be aware of it herself. Staying in touch and "close" with Jessa means she gets to see Ben as well.

[Mrsjumbo]

I saw some of the wedding episode with the added scenes. Because of photos, Jessa was an hour late walking down the aisle? And then they took 90 min of photos after the ceremony? How rude "Duggar time" is!

[Apple Clark]

"Duggar time" is bullshit. Most of those kids can get ready completely on their own, and have plenty of time to help their younger kids, since the "actual parents" won't.

[mbutterfly]

But my point was that I don't think that most Fundies, even Gothard Fundies, are as isolated as many people think that they are. The Bates children certainly interact far more in their community than the Duggar children, and the Keller family was very active in their church. Ben's family isn't Gothard, but Vision Forum, often considered a sibling subculture, and it's pretty clear he was involved in a church and perhaps even extra curricular or after school or co-op activities. It's the Duggars that are the exception to even their own culture - which is why I made the comparison to other extreme subgroups such as the Amish or Hutterites. They are standoffish even within their own group - which is why I think Jim Bob has had some trouble finding acceptable people for his children to marry.

Pardon me for always jumping on you with more questions, GEML, but this is all so far from my own mainline Wesleyan traditions I'm always bursting with questions. I've known many, many fundies. I've attended their weddings and birthday parties and funerals. Though we come from different traditions and beliefs, I've never seen -- specific to their faith -- behavior that makes me want to tap them on the shoulder and whisper, "My dear, that just isn't done." But here with the Duggars and family, the men jump into the wedding recessional like Attila the Hun (for example), and I blush on their behalf. I guess I'm asking, is it just the Duggars (and those who marry them) or is it Gothardism and its klieg light focus on marital sexuality.

Edited April 11, 2015 by mbutterfly

[GEML]

I've never seen that until the Duggars. I've seem Fundy weddings where you didn't join arms or be physically escorted down the aisle, but none of this clownish behavior.

[mbutterfly]

I've never seen that until the Duggars. I've seem Fundy weddings where you didn't join arms or be physically escorted down the aisle, but none of this clownish behavior.

Their not joining arms is interesting too. Perhaps I just didn't notice it. Would the same be true for ushers not offering arms to escort women guests to their seats? It seems so innocuous. 

[GEML]

No, they escort people to seats. But it's usually the mother in a group. Few young women attend a Fundy wedding along, for instance.

[MamaMax]

Is it possible that Jessa and Ben were already married? I mean, the pink dress, the "first kiss" no one saw… did they marry secretly at the Throrncrown chapel over the summer and then just throw this big do for the cameras?

[GEML]

I have a hard time believing they could have had a secret ceremony and it not be leaked. Certainly not a place like Thorncrown.

[lexington11]

Hope this isn't too off topic but I'd love to see the Duggars watch "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" . As far as I can remember, it's not offensive and doesn't contain any cursing but was very funny. I remember the one scene of the mom peeling about 100 lbs of potatoes getting ready for the wedding dinner along with the dad spraying Windex on everything since it cured all ills. I even thought it was nice of her husband to convert to her religion before they married, and I enjoyed seeing how her parents interacted with him and his family. It was over the top and funny, but I could see how a wedding like this could happen in real life. My inlaws are Italian and they act quite a bit like this family. 

I can relate to that. My family's Latin American, and our weddings are pretty similar to the one shown in the movie. The main difference is that every Latin American wedding I've been to has to include a band, a DJ, or both, and the guests know in advance to either wear comfortable shoes or take them off a few hours into the reception, because it's a guarantee that there will be tons of dancing.