Going Clear: Scientology And The Prison Of Belief

[Kromm]

I am amazed that everyone goes along with what Miscavige does.   Surely when he first started his takeover and abusing people, there were enough executives that they could have looked at him standing there alone and said "Hey buddy you hijacked this religion we believe in and worked so hard for, you are OUT of here."   What could one man have done against that?  Church schisms have started over less.

You're talking about how a real Church might react.  But this is a cult.  Meaning that they typically focus on a single figurehead who has ultimate authority. Losing one such figurehead, because they were a cult and not a religion, they gladly glommed onto a replacement figurehead.

 

Cult. Religion.  They may SEEM similar but aren't. Even the much derided Catholics, as much as the Pope is described often in the same way, have a tried and true formalized dispersal of authority with their College of Cardinals.  It's not one whacked out leader directly strongarming taking over after another.  But that's what happened with CoS.  Because they are a cult.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Kromm

[pasdetrois]

I don't feel sorry for Katie Holmes. I think she knew what she was getting into when she married Tom Cruise. I think she knowingly made a deal with the devil in exchange for power and cash. I suspect she planned all along to have a child with Cruise and leave the marriage an extremely wealthy woman. She played the media and the public (and Tom).

[psychoticstate]

I don't feel sorry for Katie Holmes. I think she knew what she was getting into when she married Tom Cruise. I think she knowingly made a deal with the devil in exchange for power and cash. I suspect she planned all along to have a child with Cruise and leave the marriage an extremely wealthy woman. She played the media and the public (and Tom).

 

I agree.

 

I actually find her more distasteful than I do Cruise.  I think Cruise believes all this fucknuttery he spouts and the CO$ spouts but I don't think she believed in it for a moment.  In order hitch her wagon to Cruise's, she had to publicly be on-board with Scientology and she seemed to have no problem doing that.  To me, that's just as dangerous as people like Cruise who love to extoll the virtues of the CO$ - - I'm not going to invest in that and believe it just because some celebrity says so but many people do.

 

Holmes also knew that Suri, whether Cruise's biological child or not, would be born into this crap and subjected to it for as long as their contract ran. Hardly Mother of the Year status. I have no doubt that Holmes had heard about the CO$' questionable tactics and practices. She could easily have Googled it (and who wouldn't have?) and her father is a smart man who I think woul have done his own investigations.  She wasn't some innocent who went into this unknowing.

[Mindymoo]

I feel bad for Katie Holmes, and I don't even like her. I am from Toledo, where she is from. I was in a couple of plays with her. My mom is a nurse, and one of her doctors was very close friends with Katie Holmes' dad. After a round of golf and some beers. he started spilling about how awful it was when Tom and Katie came to visit. Her parents were never allowed any alone time with her, because she always had another Scientologist or two in tow. Her visits became more and more infrequent, and she had a huge personality change. It only got worse when they had the baby. Tom refused to allow her parents to spend any time with the baby without a Scientologist watching, because they were afraid that they would baptize her. He also was troubled by Tom making her go as "Kate" instead of "Katie", when she had always been Katie and didn't like "Kate." Her father was one of her biggest helpers in her escape from the cult.

[pigs-in-space]

You're talking about how a real Church might react.  But this is a cult.  Meaning that they typically focus on a single figurehead who has ultimate authority. Losing one such figurehead, because they were a cult and not a religion, they gladly glommed onto a replacement figurehead.

 

Cult. Religion.  They may SEEM similar but aren't. Even the much derided Catholics, as much as the Pope is described often in the same way, have a tried and true formalized dispersal of authority with their College of Cardinals.  It's not one whacked out leader directly strongarming taking over after another.  But that's what happened with CoS.  Because they are a cult.

 

The book also goes into this in a lot more depth.  There was another contender for his position, but Miscavage was able to consolidate power and kick the other guy out.  It unsurprisingly worked a lot like a political coup, with Miscavage managing to alienate and cut off most of the original Sea Org members who had been close to LRH.

[paramitch]

I actually find her more distasteful than I do Cruise.  I think Cruise believes all this fucknuttery he spouts and the CO$ spouts but I don't think she believed in it for a moment.  In order hitch her wagon to Cruise's, she had to publicly be on-board with Scientology and she seemed to have no problem doing that.  To me, that's just as dangerous as people like Cruise who love to extoll the virtues of the CO$ - - I'm not going to invest in that and believe it just because some celebrity says so but many people do.

 

Holmes also knew that Suri, whether Cruise's biological child or not, would be born into this crap and subjected to it for as long as their contract ran. Hardly Mother of the Year status. I have no doubt that Holmes had heard about the CO$' questionable tactics and practices. She could easily have Googled it (and who wouldn't have?) and her father is a smart man who I think woul have done his own investigations.  She wasn't some innocent who went into this unknowing.

 

I suspect that it wasn't nearly as cold or calculated as this on Katie's part, though. She was a TV actress, very young, who had only done a few movies. Suddenly, the biggest movie star in the world is giving her the full court press -- a fully orchestrated romantic blitz campaign. I do actually think he was at least infatuated with her, and all she had to do was be open-minded about his somewhat weird religious beliefs. I can totally see her shrugging some of that off until the realities began to weigh in upon her -- Scientology is very good at stage by stage reveals, too, so that she wouldn't have been exposed right away to everything all at once.

 

My impression is that it goes something like this:

 

1. Hi there! We're not at all what you've heard. We're all about finding your own power!
2. We'll help you become who you were meant to be! You're special!
3. We'll help you save the world and become the success you always knew you were meant for!
4. You'll also be followed around by this great person who's here to "help" you through all these transitions!
5. Oh, by the way, let me help you with some things that worked for me, like purifying yourself body and mind... isn't that a beautiful idea?
6. You're doing great! The world press loves you! Everyone is talking about how beautiful you are!
7. Oh, by the way, I do this thing called auditing, which is this great way to purify your mind of present and past life negativity -- it's like confession only healthier!
8. You're doing terrifically! A bunch of movie studios want you for new projects, too!
9. You've moved up some levels! I know some of the stuff you're learning seems weird, but it's no weirder than water into wine, right?
10. Your parents/old friends are so negative. They may not mean to be but they really add a lot of stress to your life. You don't need that. You should cut out that negativity and just concentrate on YOU
11. You can't really do _____________ or go to ________ like you want. Sorry, but it's just part of who we are. We're watching out for you, that's all.
12. You're pregnant, how amazing! (We'll help you through every step of it, Just one small thing, we don't want to traumatize the baby so we believe in this thing called "silent birth," but don't worry about it, you'll do fine...)
13. We're really concerned about you, but just remember we know you better than anyone. We'll keep your secrets. We only care about you.
14. And hey look, we just got this new house/penthouse/ski lodge/ice palace! etc.
15. I'm so sorry you feel unsettled or confined. I have this entire team here to do your bidding, how can we help?

 

UNTIL:  Oh, isn't it great? It's time for our child to start learning all these great things too!

 

At which point I think Katie just went, "Nope. I'm done."

 

I fully believe that on some level Katie was swept up in the glamor of it, the whirlwind romance of it, and that she was too much inside it all to see how it looked from outside. I'm just glad she has incredibly smart parents who seemed aware from the get-go that this would not go well. 

 

I feel bad for Katie Holmes, and I don't even like her. I am from Toledo, where she is from. I was in a couple of plays with her. My mom is a nurse, and one of her doctors was very close friends with Katie Holmes' dad. After a round of golf and some beers. he started spilling about how awful it was when Tom and Katie came to visit. Her parents were never allowed any alone time with her, because she always had another Scientologist or two in tow. Her visits became more and more infrequent, and she had a huge personality change. It only got worse when they had the baby. Tom refused to allow her parents to spend any time with the baby without a Scientologist watching, because they were afraid that they would baptize her. He also was troubled by Tom making her go as "Kate" instead of "Katie", when she had always been Katie and didn't like "Kate." Her father was one of her biggest helpers in her escape from the cult.

 

This is really interesting. It fits with my impression that at first, she thought, what the heck, and gave it all a try. Then the blinders started coming off and I'm sure at some point it began to feel a lot more like jail than adoration. So I do feel sorry for her -- I certainly think she must have thought, at first, that raising her child in an environment of unlimited money and enthusiasm must not have seemed that worrisome. Until she got to that point.

Edited April 2, 2015 by paramitch

[Snow Apple]

Also, Tom (and other COS actors) seemed so normal until the couch jumping. Yes, his reputation took a dive after dumping Nicole, but he wasn't fully whacked out yet. Of course there were whispers about the COS, but it wasn't full blown like nowadays.

 

I liked Kirstie Alley in Cheers. I liked Leah Remini. And who didn't like John Travolta, especially after his Pulp Fiction comeback? They seemed like you and me. And their coworkers all say good things about them and worked with them again and again. So I can see Katie turning a blind eye at first to all the...off...things for a guy she had a crush on and had his poster on her wall. I thought the COS was weird, but never heard of the abuse or the hole back then (although maybe I just wasn't paying attention).

 

I looked up a list of celebrity members just a few days ago and was surprised by more than a few names on that list.

[calliope1975]

Also, Tom (and other COS actors) seemed so normal until the couch jumping. Yes, his reputation took a dive after dumping Nicole, but he wasn't fully wacked out yet. Of course there were whispers about the COS, but it wasn't full blown like nowadays.

 

His former PR lady, Pat Kingsley, kept all the crazy out of the press. She would leverage interviews with TC and her other clients based on him not being questioned about the COS. Once he fired her, there was no one to rein him in, and he became more and more public with his beliefs. 

[RedheadZombie]

I'm re-watching part of the documentary again.  Because, although none of the information was new to me,  it's so powerful to hear it from the mouths of top dogs like Rathbun, Rinder, and Haggis.  Rinder bugged me both times.  The guy comes off as so angry and bitter, yet completely remorseless for his direct part in this horror show.  And while Marty Rathbun does come off as sympathetic, he didn't seem to regret helping destroy Nicole Kidman's marriage, and poisoning her children against her.  He just points back at Miscavige.

 

How weird was it watching a group of crazy-eyed fanatics saluting and singing happy birthday to a dead LRH?  And don't you just hate all their stupid lingo, like for instance, LRH?  And watching two tiny little men with Napoleon Syndrome, salute each other like they had actually served their country for ten minutes, triggers my gag reflex.

 

I watched the Cruise "Freedom Medal of Valor" video when it was leaked years ago.  I really wish they would have shown more of his speech.  The part that really stuck out was his comment about driving by an accident scene, and knowing that you (a Scientologist) were the only person capable of helping.  Not the police, fire fighters, or EMTs - Scientologists.  Somehow miraculously done while flying by at a high rate of speed.

 

I suspect that it wasn't nearly as cold or calculated as this on Katie's part, though. She was a TV actress, very young, who had only done a few movies. Suddenly, the biggest movie star in the world is giving her the full court press -- a fully orchestrated romantic blitz campaign. I do actually think he was at least infatuated with her, and all she had to do was be open-minded about his somewhat weird religious beliefs. I can totally see her shrugging some of that off until the realities began to weigh in upon her -- Scientology is very good at stage by stage reveals, too, so that she wouldn't have been exposed right away to everything all at once.

 

She was twenty-seven when she married him, and had been in the business for ten years.  At that age, millions of us have patients' lives in our hands, are dying for our country, etc.  If Katie was blind, it was willfully.  My mom - disinterested in Hollywood gossip, takes everything at face value, and lacking cynicism, stated this as the reason Tom didn't marry Katie until after the baby was born - "He's waiting to make sure she doesn't get post-partum depression.  If she does, he'll dump her".  Everything about his courtship was planned out and orchestrated PR.  From the first date, she was assigned a sitter (Tommy Davis' wife) who accompanied her everywhere, and was present and in charge of every interview.  Katie, as a Catholic, would know how utterly bizarre it is to essentially "confess" her sins while someone writes down detailed notes.  She may not have known the extent of the lunacy before she got pregnant, but she definitely did by the time she married him.  After the silent birth, eating the placenta, leaving the baby alone in a dark room for twenty-four hours after birth, and feeding the baby some homemade garbage instead of breast milk or formula. 

 

I looked up a list of celebrity members just a few days ago and was surprised by more than a few names on that list.

 

As much as I dislike the idea of calling people out on their religion, I think cults are exempted.  I think it's important to point out which celebrities are CO$ - they should be held accountable for belonging to a cult that violates human rights.  In that spirit, I will point out that Elizabeth Moss (Mad Men) and Alanna Masterson (The Walking Dead), are Scientologists.  They don't talk about it.

[Rick Kitchen]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scientologists

[Kromm]

My feeling is that Katie knew what she was doing and made a devil's bargain.  She was no child when she made this bargain--and in fact the caution she seems to have taken with the legal agreements they made seems to clearly indicate a very knowing state.

 

She made sane, cold, self-interested decisions, where he's insane, but she also I think sold herself only in the role of breeder and for most, maybe all, of their marriage was coldly disengaged.  I mean even back then people debated if Cruise's penis ever entered her vagina, or if a turkey baster did.  That was all over the net back then and I think there was a reason that line of thought was so prevalent (since unlike Travolta, Cruise actually DOES seem at least somewhat into women).  It felt like a business decision more than a marriage even back then.  Of course Katie didn't accurately twig to the fact that Cruise's star, as well as Scientology's was on it's final slide down, and that her own career would nosedive instead of be boosted by them.  She miscalculated.

 

I will say that I do think that while there's no way she didn't go into this as a coldly logical business arrangement, that doesn't mean she was totally heads-up about what fucking nutters the Scientologists (and Cruise in particular) were.  Remember, Oprah-couch bouncegate was a RESULT of he and Oprah talking about his engagement to Katie, so it's not like that was in his past when he met her. There was the ridiculous stuff in 2004 about Cruise trying to milk post-9/11 publicity by donating L. Ron Hubbard Detox Vitamin Therapy sessions (the same bizarre bullshit Narconon kills people with) to "help" 9/11 rescue workers still suffering from aftereffects, and THEN there was the attack-dog stuff he did in early 2005 on Brooke Shields about her daring to take drugs for her post-partum depression.  But that stuff was still on the side, even at the edge, where a lot of people were denying that Cruise was Cuckoo for Coco Puffs.  It took that stuff on Oprah to cast him onto the other side of that divide.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Kromm

[pigs-in-space]

 

 

I'm re-watching part of the documentary again.  Because, although none of the information was new to me,  it's so powerful to hear it from the mouths of top dogs like Rathbun, Rinder, and Haggis.  Rinder bugged me both times.  The guy comes off as so angry and bitter, yet completely remorseless for his direct part in this horror show.  And while Marty Rathbun does come off as sympathetic, he didn't seem to regret helping destroy Nicole Kidman's marriage, and poisoning her children against her.  He just points back at Miscavige.

 

 

It's fascinating to see them being subjected to the same kind of treatment by Scientology that they were once doling out.  Hiring private detectives to dig up dirt, trailing people, harassing them...well, now they know what it's like to be on the other side.  I do appreciate that they could have just kept their mouths shut, possibly even been paid off by the church to do so, but chose to speak out.  I'd guess this is their way of trying to make some sort of amends for all the awful things they did.

 

 

How weird was it watching a group of crazy-eyed fanatics saluting and singing happy birthday to a dead LRH?  And don't you just hate all their stupid lingo, like for instance, LRH?  And watching two tiny little men with Napoleon Syndrome, salute each other like they had actually served their country for ten minutes, triggers my gag reflex.

 

I love it, since LRH's own military record was so abysmal, yet he constantly embellished (aka flat-out lied about it) it.  So much phoniness there.

Edited April 3, 2015 by pigs-in-space

[RedheadZombie]

It's fascinating to see them being subjected to the same kind of treatment by Scientology that they were once doling out.  Hiring private detectives to dig up dirt, trailing people, harassing them...well, now they know what it's like to be on the other side.  I do appreciate that they could have just kept their mouths shut, possibly even been paid off by the church to do so, but chose to speak out.  I'd guess this is their way of trying to make some sort of amends for all the awful things they did.

 

I'll agree with this.  I did a little reading on Lisa McPherson, and Marty Rathbun had his hands in that mess as well.  He admitted he instructed the "church" to destroy records on Lisa McPherson.  In sworn testimony, Rathbun stated that CO$ spent $30 million influencing (bribing) Florida judges, and defaming the attorney representing Lisa McPherson's family.  Lastly, he acknowledged that bribes were given to change McPherson's cause of death to accidental.  How in the hell do these people get away with this?  It's outrageous.

[SpottedCoachDog]

I have zero sympathy for Katie Holmes. She is, by all accounts, a smart girl. She made her deal with the Devil and she drilled that ole Devil in the ass when she crawfished on the deal and ran. Suri, however, I do feel sorry for. She views that toxic midget as her father and has to wonder why he doesn't love her the way he used to. I've always believed Katie was already preggers when she met Cruise. Too many pics of the bump going from watermelon to cantaloupe and back again.

And why does Travolta stay? Easy. His kids. Preston is in way too deep. He'd never get out with the kids and he loves them way too much to leave them behind.

I totally agree this only touched on the tip of the iceberg that is the cray cray world of Scientology. But it was still fascinating.

[absnow54]

As much as I dislike the idea of calling people out on their religion, I think cults are exempted.  I think it's important to point out which celebrities are CO$ - they should be held accountable for belonging to a cult that violates human rights.  In that spirit, I will point out that Elizabeth Moss (Mad Men) and Alanna Masterson (The Walking Dead), are Scientologists.  They don't talk about it.

I can't speak for them personally, but I feel like a lot of the younger people in Hollywood that are involved in Scientology were born into it. A lot of people are raised to follow a certain religion, and when they're older, find they don't believe in the practices. Some still associate with the religion, but no longer follow the teachings or go to mass. These people aren't a part of a cult though, so when they denounce the religion, their family doesn't shun them and abandon them completely (not to say those who worship other religions aren't guilty of that.) Again, I can't speak for these people who identify as Scientologists but never talk about their affiliation, but I'm sure the whole disconnection thing keeps them sipping on the Kool Aid so they don't lose contact with their loved ones.

 

Not to absolve them, of course. I'm a huge fan of Jason Dohring's and Elzabeth Moss's work, and it pains me to see them involved, and really makes me question their characters.

Edited April 3, 2015 by absnow54

[Crs97]

I never liked her much as an actress, but the way she exited that marriage and retained tight custody of that little girl filled me with respect

for Katie Holmes' father

[attica]

couch bouncegate

 

This made me snort with mirth. It's fun to say.

[Kromm]

It's fascinating to see them being subjected to the same kind of treatment by Scientology that they were once doling out.  Hiring private detectives to dig up dirt, trailing people, harassing them...well, now they know what it's like to be on the other side.  I do appreciate that they could have just kept their mouths shut, possibly even been paid off by the church to do so, but chose to speak out.  I'd guess this is their way of trying to make some sort of amends for all the awful things they did.

And yet this documentary focusing on them so strongly is also the main problem with it.  It poses them more as victims than what many of them were--collaborators.  A few seem genuinely sorry, some more than others, but I'd love to know if any of them have really and truly apologized, nay GROVELED at the feet of the people who's lives THEY helped ruin when they were collaborating.  By focusing on their time in the Hole, and by leaving out big parts of the story like Lisa McPhearson, Anonymous, Narconon, etc., and by downplaying that most of these people were RESPONSIBLE for the dirty tricks, the harassment, disconnection enforcement, S.P. declarations, nuisance lawsuits, having people followed/stalked, the weird policies with child labor, the weird policies with adult labor, the shakedown of people for money, the willing betrayals of trust in the auditing sessions, etc. etc. etc.  These were the people who did all that.  Miscaviage led from the top, but his hands only did so much by himself.

[lucindabelle]

Re Katie Holmes being 27, age isn't set in stone. At 27 I was pretty young. I went to grad school at 29.

Now, I'm a skeptical person and would never have fallen for this crap, but I'm just saying chronological age doesn't always match emotional maturity. (When people tell me even now you look so young, I like to say it's because I'm emotionally immature... :)

 

I've never understood how people could wilingly subscribe to a religion they KNEW was invented by a fiction writer... until now. The "clear" stuff is nothing very different from talk therapy, and however people heal their "inner children," it can be empowering. Travolta started booking everything not because of the magic powers of CoS but because he released loads of hurtful memories and crippling insecurities and his talent, not to mention his gorgeous (I forgot how much!) shone through. No doubt same for TC

 

I was a chanting Buddhist for awhile, though I'm Jewish. I left when two things stuck out: though it had been introduced to me as a practice, like meditation, the town in which I moved to the people clearly treated it as a religion. Not comfortable. And two, I began to feel superstitious that if I hadn't chanted enough, bad things would happen. Now, this is ON ME. Nobody ever told me this and I'm certainly not tarring all the people who chant and it's normal and more religion like. And while I did help paint a building once in San Francisco nobody at any time ever asked me for money other than magazine subscription which I think was like $20. 

 

... sounds as though I'm leading up to saying Scientology is just bad for some... but I'm actually not. I'm saying that sure it's possible to make analogies to other religions with odd beliefs or strange practices (Odd and strange being relative of course)... but it's incorrect.

 

Scientology is not whacked because of its SF beliefs. actually when I was a girl I used to think C.S. Lewis had been to Narnia and was just posing as having written fiction, so maybe some scientologiests tell themselves that about LRH.

 

No. Scientology is whacked because it is a cult. It harasses. It takes money. It deliberately separates families (which no, is NOT something respecatable religions do-- they might suggest limiting contact but saying NONE? No. Yes, O Jews will "Mourn" a child who converts, but that is an extreme situation... and frankly... more in the breach than in practice).

 

This is not a collection plate. Not tithing. This is sheer exploitation. Prison camps? Unreal. I've never heard of any other religion harassing people who want to leave. They might try to dissuade you, of course. But that's it. (and trying to dissuade you to me is totally fair; it's what schools and clubs do too.)

 

Tom Cruise when he was laughing maniacally at NK for being a SP-- scared me. He looked sucha fool running up to salute Miscavige. And dancing on his birthday. SUCH a fool. As for being nice on set, he's in that class of celebrities that put on the nice when they think they need to. In some situations he's nice. That is not hte same as real empathy. He looks insane to me.

 

Also, how could anyone look at LRH and not see pure madness? He looked NUTS. The film had a copy of his letter begging for treatment. How did they get that?

 

I do think that real religions, even the ones I find odd, including snake handlers, Jehovah's Witnesses (mom always has a nice chat with the ladies who come to the door), should be tax exempt. I'm fine with that.

 

This cult? NO.

 

Can anyone confirm whether they are banned in Germany? I remember reading they were and if so thought the film should say it. This is a group of people who went in for essentially therapy, found some relief, and got more and more drawn in to being exploited and abused. I pity them. But the church itself needs to be stopped, made illegal, dismantled.

[Dirndl]

Nope, guess I am going to have to be the spoiler here. For a documentary called "going clear" I am not at all clear on much of Scientology other than, it is bad. A "matrix of thought other than your own" yeh that clears it up for me. What is so glaringly obvious to me when I am watching anything on Scientology is that it is a Hollywood advancement club. But no one ever takes a look at that. Paul Haggis? Please after his bad movie gets the Oscar he suddenly has a moral moment over gays in the church? Uh huh. He just didn't need the church anymore. It isn't like there are outbreaks of this "cult" in Nebraska or Africa -- so clearly it isn't about "thought" that anyone can fall into. Sure there are some fools that have nothing to do with Hollywood in it, but they probably want to be surrounded with Hollywood / celebs.

I suspect that L. Ron Hubbard just merely provided the platform that after his death was turned into a Hollywood advancement club. Mostly what I learned from this documentary is that it has nothing to do with me and in a world where Radical Islam is trying to kill me daily ... got bigger fish to fry.

Well the cult may not be in Nebraska or Africa but it exists in Germany. There was a movie based on a true story on public television in 2010 and it had to be shot in secrecy because the film makers were so afraid of the cult and their legal team. The man's story, the movie is based on, shows that they use intimidation, hard labor for almost no money, stalking and harassment here in Germany. The man lost custody of his children because his ex-wife and Scientology managed to alienate the children from their father and hired the best possible lawyers. All that happens here in Europe far away from the glamor of Hollywood. Here is an article about the production process of the movie: Based on a True Story:TV Movie Portrays Dark Side of Scientology

 

I think Scientology operates where people with money are. Maybe that's the reason why they don't do mission work in poorer parts of the world.

Going back to the documentary. I had heard most of it before but the IRS stuff was new to me. To me it's unbelievable that they managed to manipulate this organization like they did.

[merylinkid]

 

Rathbun stated that CO$ spent $30 million influencing (bribing) Florida judges, and defaming the attorney representing Lisa McPherson's family.  Lastly, he acknowledged that bribes were given to change McPherson's cause of death to accidental.  How in the hell do these people get away with this?  It's outrageous.

How did these judges stay on the bench if they were bribed?  I am sorry, the cult can try to buy influence but it takes two to tango.   The judges and ME didn't have to allow themselves to be bribed/coerced.   They could have said NO and gone public with the attempts.   It's freaking judges and an ME, people would have listened.   

 

As for why they are banned in Germany -- there is no freedom of religion like there is here.   They can ban groups/religions they deem dangerous to public order.   Scientology thrives in the US because the government is loathe to investigate anyone's religious beliefs too closely.   If a "church" checks all the right boxes for being a religion -- boom, they are one.    Good lord, I have heard that Kris (Kardashian) Jenner has a "church" for the tax exemption.   Mel Gibson also has one.   The problem with a broad view of religion is you get abuse.   On the other hand, no one is being denied their rights by the government on account of religion.   

[90PercentGravity]

The problem with a broad view of religion is you get abuse.   On the other hand, no one is being denied their rights by the government on account of religion.

 

Unless you count gay people....

[Rick Kitchen]

 

Can anyone confirm whether they are banned in Germany? I remember reading they were and if so thought the film should say it. This is a group of people who went in for essentially therapy, found some relief, and got more and more drawn in to being exploited and abused. I pity them. But the church itself needs to be stopped, made illegal, dismantled.

 

Not banned, but monitored.  See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_in_Germany

 

Can you imagine being someone like Kate Ceberano, who is a third generation Scieno?  Her grandmother was LRH's nanny.

[LisaBLingLing]

A few years ago I hired a local college student to ba ysit for one evening. I picked her up on campus and we chatted as we drove back to my house. She told me she had just started investigating Scientology. I told her I didn't know much about it (true) and asked her to tell some of the things they believe in. Shen started with the while philosophy of silent birth. I have 4 children. My unfiltered first response was, "Oh fuck no!" I apologized fir the outburst then explained to her that such a belief/philosophy could only be the brainchild of a man. And then I said that not only would it have to be a man who came up with that nonsense but probably came from a man who didn't like women very much. I told her that I'm all for freedom of religion, but until a man actually manages to have a silent birth himself, she shouldn't allow one to expect that of her. I also advised her to tread very carefully with an organization that would put those kinds of restrictions on women. It was a onetime babysitting deal and I never saw her again, but knowing what I know now, I hope she took my advice and didn't become a Scientologist.

[pigs-in-space]

I think Scientology operates where people with money are. Maybe that's the reason why they don't do mission work in poorer parts of the world.

 

Ding ding ding!  I think you've hit the nail on the head there...

[maraleia]

What surprises me is why they chose Nicole Kidman and Katie Holmes for Cruise. I say this because most Catholics either stay Catholic or renounce religion altogether. They (I'm a former Catholic) aren't easily swayed by cults like Scientology.

They should've know that both women would leave so why go through all the effort for someone like Cruise?

[RedheadZombie]

What surprises me is why they chose Nicole Kidman and Katie Holmes for Cruise. I say this because most Catholics either stay Catholic or renounce religion altogether. They (I'm a former Catholic) aren't easily swayed by cults like Scientology.

They should've know that both women would leave so why go through all the effort for someone like Cruise?

 

They didn't choose Nicole Kidman. Tom was safely married to a Scientologist when he started a relationship with Nicole.  The documentary made it sound like CO$ hated Nicole from the start, but they didn't have control over Tom back then.  I think they picked Katie only after being rejected by other young actresses. 

[formerlyfreedom]

They didn't choose Nicole Kidman. Tom was safely married to a Scientologist when he started a relationship with Nicole.  The documentary made it sound like CO$ hated Nicole from the start, but they didn't have control over Tom back then.  I think they picked Katie only after being rejected by other young actresses. 

 

I think you also have to look at the timing - Tom and Nicole married in 1990, less than five years after Hubbard's death, and while Miscavage was still sealing up his control of the organization. Ten years (plus) on, I think they were in a much better position to 'direct' his search, although I'm guessing they learned from some mistakes they made.

[MikeyWM3]

I had Michael Sheen or Tony Goldwyn in mind for the TV movie role of David Miscavige.

[maraleia]

They didn't choose Nicole Kidman. Tom was safely married to a Scientologist when he started a relationship with Nicole.  The documentary made it sound like CO$ hated Nicole from the start, but they didn't have control over Tom back then.  I think they picked Katie only after being rejected by other young actresses. 

Thanks for clarifying things for me. It's still interesting that both women are Catholics. Just goes to show you how misguided the CO$ is about the rest of the world.

[90PercentGravity]

I had Michael Sheen or Tony Goldwyn in mind for the TV movie role of David Miscavige.

Isn't Tony Goldwyn pretty tall? You'd need someone short and creepy. Unfortunately, the best person for the job probably wouldn't take it...

[dbklmt]

The Scientologists are stepping up their smear campaign tactics.

http://tonyortega.org/2015/04/04/going-clear-subject-tom-devocht-visited-by-burbank-pd-after-suspicious-anonymous-tip/#more-21440

[AstaCharles]

 

He's always been painted as being one of these incredibly intense, focused types, and I give the guy full credit for what he's achieved because he has seemingly been unwavering in pursuit of the success he foresaw for himself. And early on, he was taken in by this cult that told him his success was not only deserved, it was destiny. That he is one of the chosen few; he will not only play superheroes, he will BE one, and save the world.

 

I read a quote somewhere from a comedian or maybe an author ( it was around the time Haggis left and did that article) but the person said they weren't surprised that so many celebs join this church since its biggest draw is the "It's all about ME! " teachings.

[Athena]

I read a quote somewhere from a comedian or maybe an author ( it was around the time Haggis left and did that article) but the person said they weren't surprised that so many celebs join this church since its biggest draw is the "It's all about ME! " teachings.

The journalist from the Hollywood Reporter in the documentary addresses this.Many young people join because life in Hollywood can be very isolating especially when you're an up and coming entertainer / writer. In fact, you face a lot of rejections. This was not the case for Cruise, but Travolta was struggling before he became Scientologist and the talk therapy they employed helped him become more confident. This isn't the case for those born into Scientology either, but CO$ is and has been a networking tool as well. It was social and no doubt people in CO$ would help each other get more jobs.

[General Days]

For some reason, I thought Narconon was actually a positive component of Scientology and they had a good success rate.

I know the above was posted a while ago, but it struck me, because I used to think the same, then I realized I was conflating Scientology's Narconon with N.A. (Narcotics Anonymous). I'm just wondering if that happened to you, too.

 

I'm aghast at how far reaching this cult is and feel sorry for those born into this crap. They likely believe this is "normal". I know Beck, the musician, is one of those cases. I am not a huge fan of his music but realize he is talented. But I can't help but wonder how someone who is constantly exposed to such an oppressive environment can live out of it without having a severely warped world view.

 

But, then, Beck also seems to be doing okay, so maybe there are exceptions? I know Giovanni Ribisi is another such example...

 

 

Is Beck still active? Sometimes, the adult children drift away, without officially leaving or publicly renouncing the cult. And if they're successful celebrities, the church doesn't target them, as long as they keep their mouths shut. Tangentially, isn't JLo's father a Scientologist? 

 

The journalist from the Hollywood Reporter in the documentary addresses that many young actors join because life in Hollywood can be very isolating and when you're an up and coming entertainer / writer. In fact, you face a lot of rejections. This was not the case for Cruise, but Travolta was struggling before he became Scientologist and the talk therapy they employed helped him become more confident. This isn't the case for those born into Scientology either, but CO$ is and has been a networking tool as well. It was social and no doubt people in CO$ would help each other get more jobs.

 

 

The networking/social aspect reminds me of something Haggis (I think) said in the film. He said, early on, he assumed the "church" talk was done with a wink, as a poorly disguised attempt at tax exemption and he never took it seriously as a religion, in the conventional sense. I got the impression that he and a lot of adherents looked on it as a self-help program, with social networking a bonus. 

I completely agree with everyone who says it's a dangerous cult. I just mention this, because I think a lot of people who got involved (especially in years past) didn't really think of it as a religion. At least in earlier years, neophytes were told they could remain in their religion of origin (let's say Catholic) and practice Scientology. Then they'd get further into the literature (and further up the bridge) only to read LRH saying Jesus was a "lover of young boys..." which, you know, we'd call a pedophile. LRH also said, "[LRH's] mission could be said to fulfill the Biblical promise represented by this brief anti-Christ period."

I think Katie Holmes has a high school education, and got swept up in the romance and glamour, and was a working actress, not an internet addict, who probably never thought to do due diligence on Scientology. I think she was marrying that cute actor she'd had a crush on since she was a girl, and had enough of a passing acquaintance with seemingly normal, celebrity Scientologists, that she didn't worry, until it was too late. 

[scarynikki12]

neophytes were told they could remain in their religion of origin (let's say Catholic) and practice Scientology

 

Travolta used to say that in the 90s when it came up in interviews.  He'd insist that one could be Christian and a Scientologist, Jewish and a Scientologist, and that people who were interested but attached to the faith they were raised with could do both.  He's wrong, of course, and that hasn't been the tagline for the group publicly in a long time but I wonder if it's still something they use to try and sell it person to person? 

[Proclone]

I think Katie Holmes has a high school education, and got swept up in the romance and glamour, and was a working actress, not an internet addict, who probably never thought to do due diligence on Scientology. I think she was marrying that cute actor she'd had a crush on since she was a girl, and had enough of a passing acquaintance with seemingly normal, celebrity Scientologists, that she didn't worry, until it was too late. 

 

I mentioned watching this documentary to a few people I work with.  Not one of them knew anything about Scientology other than it was slightly goofy religion practiced by celebrities.  They had never heard of the Sea Org, any abuse within the COS, or even Xenu. These were all college educated people.  I don't have a hard time believing that Katie really didn't know anything about Scientology when she met Tom, nor would I be surprised if her parents didn't really know anything about it either.  I think the COS has done a good job painting itself as a perhaps hippy-dippy, but otherwise harmless religion to the general population.  I really don't think that most people have any idea about the abuse within the COS or their other illegal activities unless they had interest and sought the information out. Scientology has had one hell of a PR machine in the past and I think that is what makes them especially dangerous. On the surface they seem harmless. Hopefully the fact that this documentary was so widely watched will help open up a lot of people's eyes and no one else will be unknowingly sucked into this dangerous cult.  

[Crs97]

He'd insist that one could be Christian and a Scientologist, Jewish and a Scientologist, and that people who were interested but attached to the faith they were raised with could do both.  He's wrong, of course, and that hasn't been the tagline for the group publicly in a long time but I wonder if it's still something they use to try and sell it person to person?

 

 

When Katie and Tom first got together and it was being reported that he was introducing her to Scientology, he was making the same claim that she could still be Catholic.  It was only later that the reporting changed to reflect that while you could be both your religion and a Scientologist, Katie was now just practicing Scientology.

 

I remember those stupid commercials in the 70's for the book and thought it sounded interesting.  Luckily, I was way too young to call on my own and my parents told me that any religion promising you easy answers to life is lying.  I, too, have been interested that both Nicole and Katie were Catholic, and I always remember that Tom's divorce with Nicole and his ominous "She knows what she did" came on the heels of an interview in which she said she found herself drawn to a Catholic church after the "Eyes Wide Shut" director died and gave the quote, "Well I suppose once a Catholic, always a Catholic."  I wonder if Katie has gone back as well.

[General Days]

I think Katie has returned to the RC church. At least, my memory is that she's sending Suri to RC parochial school.

[Rick Kitchen]

 

Is Beck still active? Sometimes, the adult children drift away, without officially leaving or publicly renouncing the cult. And if they're successful celebrities, the church doesn't target them, as long as they keep their mouths shut. Tangentially, isn't JLo's father a Scientologist?

 

Beck is listed on Wikipedia's list of current Scienos. And yes, JLo's father is a member.

 

I wonder how many Scientologists voted for Beck so that he won the Album of the Year Grammy.

[Hava]

For a documentary called "going clear" I am not at all clear on much of Scientology other than, it is bad.

 

 

I'm going to have to agree with this. I didn't get a good sense of what Scientology is exactly. What are the fundamental beliefs that make people so committed to it? Is LRH viewed as a messiah? I'm confused.

[Rick Kitchen]

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology#Beliefs_and_practices and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_beliefs_and_practices

Edited April 5, 2015 by Rick Kitchen

[SiobhanJW]

Over the years I had heard bits and peices about Scientlogy and overall thought it was very strange. This doc just reaffirmed what I had always thought.

The fact that the IRS caved and let a billion dollars just go away is mind blowing. This is not a religion it's a cult.

And also the fact that it's okay for an organization to basically stalk and have someone on surveillance for 5 years (I think that is what they said) and no one has done anything about it is quite sickening. (I know she has sued them, but I'm assuming they are probably still following her)

But I also didn't like how the documentary made John Travolta some sort of victim. That annoyed me.

And Tom Cruise I don't even know what to say. This doc is not good for him at all. I'm surprised he hasn't commented on it yet.

Hopefully this documentary changes something.

Also, did anyone see this from SNL last night?? Amazing.

Edited April 5, 2015 by SiobhanJW

[Rick Kitchen]

This is the original Scieno video that SNL was mocking.

 

 

 

 

I wonder if any of the SNL staff are members of the Church.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Rick Kitchen

[bunnywithanaxe]

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology#Beliefs_and_practices and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_beliefs_and_practices

Ok, just in case I disappear or something-- after reading this, I Googled the Squirrel Patrol to see what was up with that, found a list of the "25 people crippling Scientology", and while I was trying to read it, my browser must have crashed ten times. :D

Also, I was on a trip to Ojai recently, and was thoroughly distracted while ambling around town by wondering which of the beaming tan people I saw were in the program and what their operating level might be. Don't let this get in your head, I'm saying.

[revbfc]

Scientology is just Satanism for folks who like office politics and team building exercises run amok. After seeing the documentary and reading the OT VIII materials I'm even more convinced of this.

Does anyone know if Going Clear was much longer at one point? It felt as if a lot was left out.

[pigs-in-space]

Does anyone know if Going Clear was much longer at one point? It felt as if a lot was left out.

 

Well, the book that it is based on is a lot longer (unabridged audio book is over 17 hours...), and covers a lot more ground.  

[scrb]

What does it say about the culture that some of the biggest entertainers are these nut jobs.  Not just the Scientologists but figures like Michael Jackson.

 

Or maybe, it's the outlandish personal lives which is part of the appeal of these celebrities.

 

If they were "normal" and "boring" in their personal lives, they don't draw as much attention?  Like they say, no such thing as bad publicity.

 

But these antics don't make me want to see the next Mission Impossible movie.

[BatmanBeatles]

I thought Michael Jackson was a Jehovah's Witness.

[cpcathy]

I thought so too. As is Prince.