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Celebrating 1,000 NCIS-franchise episodes

S03.E17: T-Bone And The Iceman

ElectricBoogaloo

By ElectricBoogaloo
in Elementary [V]

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Gregg247

Gregg247

Woohoo!  I correctly identified Torgo from "Manos-The Hands of Fate" as soon as they first showed the artist's sketch! 

 

The mystery itself, though, seemed a little torturous--way too many twists to be believable.  I wonder if the writer of this episode started with the idea of using Torgo's picture in some way, and wrote the mystery around that.

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Actionmage

Actionmage

I enjoyed the Torgo reveal.  IA that it was too "twisty". I was thinking that it was the bearded engineer and was telling Joan that that was why the "suspect" looked familiar. So, a wash. *g*

 

I didn't remember Joan's mom's name being Mary, but that is fun.  What was not fun was seeing Joan caught in the middle of her mom and her brother.  Also, Mary? Not Joan's place to be a Morality Cop in your stead. I enjoyed Sherlock seeming to walk back some on the 'well, just cut ties' stance.  It isn't as rare a thing to be liked by Sherlock ( as opposed to being his friend), but I liked that he felt he had enough space to "crowbar" Mary.

 

Lots of Marcus this week! Yay! I enjoyed his stink eye for Sherlock's lack of faith.

 

A nice, "quiet" episode overall though.

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shapeshifter

shapeshifter

(edited)

I wasn't familiar with Manos, so I looked it up on Wikipedia and noticed that the man in the cowboy hat in the photograph was injured by incorrectly worn costume protheses during the filming, which caused him to take pain killers until his suicide by gunshot shortly before the premiere of the film (en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manos:_The_Hands_of_Fate#Production). His fate seems not too far from the victims in this episode.

After the last victim died, I was expecting it to be that there was some arrangement to get a discount on being cryogenically preserved if one was willing to kill another client and then be willing to be killed by another. I thought the revolving door policy of storing the bodies off-site hinted at this type of scheme. Why does this remind me also of the fund raising policy of the college where I am employed in which they increase the number of students to get more money from them but then have to spend more money to educate them?

ETA:

...I was thinking that it was the bearded engineer and was telling Joan that that was why the "suspect" looked familiar....

I too thought this but wondered if it was too obvious.

I was hoping it would be someone Joan had encountered (well, it sort of was) and that Sherlock would explain that he was only poo-pooing her claim to having recognized the sketch as part of a memory technique to help her actually remember where she had seen him before. Sadly, they just left it at his being an arrogant ass.

I loved Joan's blouse with the single blue flower design! 20 years ago I would have attempted to make a copy of it.

Edited by shapeshifter
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Actionmage

Actionmage

Did Sherlock say "Marcus" at all this episode? Will he ever say it again?

 

I don't know if you were teasing, but when I was just talking about Det. Bell, not Sherlock  calling him  by his first name.  As to the second part, maybe. If he is trying to protect Det. Bell from some physical harm, possibly. ( I have no magical or mundane reason to believe this is coming, least of all this season. Just playing 'what if?')

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Trey

Trey

Right, is this our Mary Watson?  (In canon, Mary was the name of John Watson's wife.)

That's what I was thinking too.

 

I found the plot to be very convoluted and, actually, not all that interesting.  But I loved Joan's storyline with her mother.

 

Did anyone else have a hard time making out what JLM was saying?  He's always difficult to understand but last night seemed to be worse than ever.

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jch323

jch323

 

Did anyone else have a hard time making out what JLM was saying?  He's always difficult to understand but last night seemed to be worse than ever.

I've heard this complaint before, but I've never had an issue understanding him. Maybe it's because I've been a fan of Jonny Lee Miller since Trainspotting and have seen so many of his TV/film projects (and a variety of his accents).

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MaryHedwig

MaryHedwig

(edited)
Did anyone else have a hard time making out what JLM was saying?  He's always difficult to understand but last night seemed to be worse than ever.

He seemed to be speaking faster than usual, it was hard to read the close captioning words as they flew by.

 

When Joan asked her mother Mary what she had ordered the time before, Mary said she used to ask the same kind of questions of her own mother.  Could whatever Mary has be hereditary and could Joan be at risk to have it as well?  If I just figure this out, I am sure that Sherlock figured it out a long time ago and it already has some plan to address this.  Maybe Joan will be covertly tested by this neurologist as her mother is overtly so.

 

My heart melted when Sherlock said Joan's family was bigger than she realized.  Of course that makes her physical relationship with Mycroft come off as even creepier.

Edited by MaryHedwig
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shapeshifter

shapeshifter

(edited)

Although it was in character for Sherlock, I didn't like that he convinced Mary that she had forgotten Joan's birthday and not given her a scarf when in fact she had remembered and he had destroyed the scarf. Wouldn't this muddy the waters when trying to diagnose Mary? Isn't it possible that she saw someone who looked truly identical to her son with another woman? Even if her reaction was influenced by the resemblance of the man to both her son and her first husband, maybe her eyesight is more of an issue at this point than dementia? Oh well, I'm sure they'll clear this up. Sherlock's methods seemed tailored to relieve Joan of having to deal with it, but were done without, IMO, enough care for the patient (Mary) herself, IMO.

ETA names in place of vague pronouns

Edited by shapeshifter
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shapeshifter

shapeshifter

(edited)

"I loved Joan's blouse with the single blue flower design!"

I, on the other hand, found it beyond distracting.

I totally agree! But at least it kept me awake. ;>)

"This Icy Cold Both Foul And Fair Has A Frozen Heart Worth Mining"...You know, it really doesn't. http://previously.tv/elementary/this-icy-cold-both-foul-and-fair-has-a-frozen-heart-worth-mining/

...wasteful appearances by beloved character actors Mark Margolis and...

...Gregson and Bell are woefully underutilized...

When Bell took Margolis' character to lock-up, instead of grabbing his upper arm or handcuffing him, Marcus/Jon Michael Hill gestured with a flourish for Margolis to walk in front of him. To me it seemed like perhaps a hidden acknowledgement that Hill respects Margolis and possibly has empathy for him having to hang around set all day to deliver so few lines.

P.S. Great PT review by Allison Lowe Huff

Edited by shapeshifter
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FineWashables

FineWashables

 

I loved Joan's blouse with the single blue flower design!

Me too.  Joan's blouse was easily the most interesting thing in this episode.  

 

Could Joan's brother and sister-in-law have some kind of roleplaying sex thing going on where she puts on a blonde wig?

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possibilities

possibilities

Could Joan's brother and sister-in-law have some kind of roleplaying sex thing going on where she puts on a blonde wig?

Ha! They should have had Sherlock investigate the potential affair, before concluding mom's got cognitive issues. He would have relished reporting to Joan that it was merely a marital amusement....

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thuganomics85

thuganomics85

Case itself wasn't all that interesting, outside of the somewhat surprise that they got Mark Margolis as the head of the company, and he wasn't guilty of the murder.  Granted, he's still running a company that takes advantage of people off their rockers and has a lot of questionable practices, but that's still pretty tame for a Mark Margolis character.

 

The stuff with Joan's mom was more interesting.  I'm glad Sherlock stepped up to help out in the end, even if his methods are deceitful.  I agree that it's possible the mom simply just saw someone who looked like the son at a distance, and there really isn't that much evidence to automatically assume she has dementia, so the scarf trick was pretty shady.  I would have loved it if really was just some kind of role-play going on between Joan's bro and his wife.

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ABay

ABay

(edited)

Torgo! He watches the place while the Master's away.

 

Now I can't get the image of Joel's foot poncho out of my head.

Edited by ABay
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Rosebud1970

Rosebud1970

Oy.  All this to-do about Joan's mother possibly in the early stages of dementia.  How about Joan's brother (what kind of name is Oren, anyway?) lying about having an affair?!  Wouldn't that be a standard reaction to someone's sister calling out of the blue and asking a question like that?

 

Imagine this:  Mom says she said she saw you kissing a blonde in the driveway.  Brother:  Say what?  Wasn't me.  I'm happily married to whatshername.  Mon's losing her marbles.  Lock her up in the old ladies' home, pronto! [before she sees me again and tells someone else.]

 

Of course, I could just be overly sensitive.  Like most of CBS' audience, I'm an old.

 

We'll see.

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theatremouse

theatremouse

(edited)

Isn't it possible that she saw someone who looked truly identical to her son with another woman? Even if her reaction was influenced by the resemblance of the man to both her son and her first husband, maybe her eyesight is more of an issue at this point than dementia?

Extremely unlikely given she said she saw it happen in his driveway. I think we're supposed to accept it as likely an actual larger problem given Sherlock's (multiple) experiences with Mary Watson seeming to have memory issues. That's why he brought it up, and probably didn't feel guilty about lying about the scarf. It wasn't just the blonde, or just one phone call forgetting he was in London. It was enough to worry them both. So he saw it as more of a "for her own good" thing. It's debateable whether it's actually ok to have done it in that manner, but he was going on much more than just one potential memory and/or vision lapse. Edited by theatremouse
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sinkwriter

sinkwriter

I was thrilled to see Patrick Breen on screen. I've liked him as an actor since he appeared on 21 Jump Street wayyyy back when.

 

Not a particularly exciting episode, though. (Certainly no "500%" delusions to be had, LOL.) But I liked the Holmes-Watson banter.

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Clanstarling

Clanstarling

Having had the experience of a parent going through Alzheimer's - seems to me the few "memory" issues they brought up are hardly worth getting in a twist about at this stage. Now, if Mary was repeating conversations over and over to her loved ones, or forgetting how things work, that would be more worrisome. Now, if she actually had forgotten Joan's birthday...

 

On the other hand, getting someone to admit they have a problem and agree to being tested can be a real battle. Everyone's afraid of that diagnosis.

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shapeshifter

shapeshifter

(edited)

...I loved Joan's blouse with the single blue flower design! 20 years ago I would have attempted to make a copy of it.

Me too. Joan's blouse was easily the most interesting thing in this episode....

...I did like Joan's blouse, too.

And here it is: http://wornontv.net/46771/

But definitely I'd have to make one if I wanted it. Too rich for my blood.

And it's a "shirt dress," not just a blouse.

Edited by shapeshifter
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FurryFury

FurryFury

(edited)

Good to know! I never know proper names for clothing. I'm a translator by trade, and once I had to translate a Korean MMO game about clothes, dates and stuff. It was a nightmare. I had to learn all about loafers, oxfords and stuff. I've forgotten about most of it since then, though. I'm more comfortable around swords, armor and even guns. Way easier to google.

 

...Ahem. Anyway, Joan's wardrobe is usually pretty great. I rarely notice these things, but with her, I almost often do, in a good way (unlike, say, Aria on PLL back when I used to watch it).

Edited by FurryFury
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MaryHedwig

MaryHedwig

(edited)
But definitely I'd have to make one if I wanted it. Too rich for my blood.And it's a "shirt dress," not just a blouse.

That "shirt dress" costs over $1000.00,  How much does Sherlock pay her?  Also, if it is a shirt dress and she is wearing it tucked into her skirt, are we to assume that they cut off the tails of it?

Edited by MaryHedwig
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Neurochick

Neurochick

YIKES!!!   So you never watched MST3K?  You need to remedy that, as soon as humanly possible.

 

Ugh, "Manos:  The Hands of Fate."  Now I have the awful music from that movie stuck in my head.  

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jhlipton

jhlipton

Having had the experience of a parent going through Alzheimer's - seems to me the few "memory" issues they brought up are hardly worth getting in a twist about at this stage. Now, if Mary was repeating conversations over and over to her loved ones, or forgetting how things work, that would be more worrisome. Now, if she actually had forgotten Joan's birthday...

When my mom was first diagnosed with dementia (which is 10,000 times easier for everyone, including the patient, to deal with), the doctor told her that memory loss was forgetting where you put your keys; Alzheimer's is forgetting what keys are for.

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Clanstarling

Clanstarling

When my mom was first diagnosed with dementia (which is 10,000 times easier for everyone, including the patient, to deal with), the doctor told her that memory loss was forgetting where you put your keys; Alzheimer's is forgetting what keys are for.

How is it easier? I never realized there was much of a difference - I've heard the terms used interchangeably (though the diagnosis for my father was definitely Alzheimer's).

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sinkwriter

sinkwriter

(edited)

Have you seen this video on Upworthy? In it they simulate what it might be like for a person suffering from Alzheimers, to give family members a sense of what they might be going through. I found it really interesting (and sad), but also potentially helpful for teaching people patience and understanding about it. 

Edited by sinkwriter
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paigow

paigow

When my mom was first diagnosed with dementia (which is 10,000 times easier for everyone, including the patient, to deal with), the doctor told her that memory loss was forgetting where you put your keys; Alzheimer's is forgetting what keys are for.

Everyone with Alzheimer's has dementia - But not everyone with dementia has Alzheimer's. Dementia is a general deterioration of intellectual faculties of which Alzheimer's is one of many possible causes.

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shapeshifter

shapeshifter

That "shirt dress" costs over $1000.00,  How much does Sherlock pay her?  Also, if it is a shirt dress and she is wearing it tucked into her skirt, are we to assume that they cut off the tails of it?

Most shirt dresses are basically a dress-length shirt with a belt. Joan's is a one-piece shirt-skirt affair--less bulk and no untucking when you lift your arms, but you can't wear one without the other.

Do the designers (in this case, Victoria Beckham) lend the clothes for the shoot as free advertising? I can't imagine the show budget has thousands to burn for a single outfit.

Anyway, I think we're supposed to fanwank that Joan got a sample (my daughter in NYC trades website work for samples) or that it's by an unknown designer from a consignment shop in the Village.

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jhlipton

jhlipton

How is it easier? I never realized there was much of a difference - I've heard the terms used interchangeably (though the diagnosis for my father was definitely Alzheimer's).

 

With non-Alzheimer's dementia, the person remembers who people are.  So they may tell you the same story over and over (because they don't remember telling it), but they know who they're telling it to.  With Alzheimer's, the person can't remember who people are, so they get frightened when these strangers come to visit, claiming to be their family; and the family is sad that Mom or Dad can't remember who they are.

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Clanstarling

Clanstarling

With non-Alzheimer's dementia, the person remembers who people are.  So they may tell you the same story over and over (because they don't remember telling it), but they know who they're telling it to.  With Alzheimer's, the person can't remember who people are, so they get frightened when these strangers come to visit, claiming to be their family; and the family is sad that Mom or Dad can't remember who they are.

Thank you for explaining. The onset of my father's Alzheimer's was similar to dementia (he told a story, then 20 minutes later, told it again..and again.) But by the end, he didn't recognize anyone. We stopped trying to remind him who we were - he was calmer if we were just visiting strangers.

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BookThief

BookThief

Joan said Mary was 68.

Now, was this actually said or are we all hive minding it? (just kidding! I, too, really thought there was something about 500%).

 

Oy.  All this to-do about Joan's mother possibly in the early stages of dementia.  How about Joan's brother (what kind of name is Oren, anyway?) lying about having an affair?!  Wouldn't that be a standard reaction to someone's sister calling out of the blue and asking a question like that?

 

Imagine this:  Mom says she said she saw you kissing a blonde in the driveway.  Brother:  Say what?  Wasn't me.  I'm happily married to whatshername.  Mon's losing her marbles.  Lock her up in the old ladies' home, pronto! [before she sees me again and tells someone else.]

I agree. I think my problem was that, for us, it came out of nowhere. So without knowing more about it (except for Sherlock telling us), I found I was wondering why they believed the brother so readily. Then at the end we find out more examples of the mother's possible dementia. If that's what's going to happen, I sort of wish they had built up to it more. Show, don't tell examples we never saw in this or other previous episodes.

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shapeshifter

shapeshifter

Joan said Mary was 68.

Now, was this actually said or are we all hive minding it? (just kidding! I, too, really thought there was something about 500%)....
Hah!

Now I'm wondering if the Show PTB deliberately only showed the [mythical?] 500% scene in certain locales to deliberately generate some confusion of memory among the social media hive mind to give us empathy for dementia.

If so, okay, PTB, we get it. Now 'fess up to your game!

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paigow

paigow

Now I'm wondering if the Show PTB deliberately only showed the [mythical?] 500% scene in certain locales to deliberately generate some confusion of memory among the social media hive mind to give us empathy for dementia.

 

Moriarty is behind this...she is no longer a fictional character within the holodeck. She is self-aware and will soon link up with Skynet.

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lookeyloo

lookeyloo

That's what I was thinking too.

 

I found the plot to be very convoluted and, actually, not all that interesting.  But I loved Joan's storyline with her mother.

 

Did anyone else have a hard time making out what JLM was saying?  He's always difficult to understand but last night seemed to be worse than ever.

Yes indeed.  I've always had this problem and last night I discovered the CC button on the remote.  Adds to the enjoyment immensely.  I don't have to keep saying to the Mr.  "what did he say?"

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Calamity Jane

Calamity Jane

That's what I was thinking too.

 

I found the plot to be very convoluted and, actually, not all that interesting.  But I loved Joan's storyline with her mother.

 

Did anyone else have a hard time making out what JLM was saying?  He's always difficult to understand but last night seemed to be worse than ever.

Well, I'm old so I always have closed-captions on, but even so I noticed how low his voice was.  Low, rapid, a bit mumbly.  Thank the heavens above for the captions or I'd be lost!

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jhlipton

jhlipton

Thank the heavens above for the captions or I'd be lost!

 

Yeah,verily.

 

It ticks me off that so much commentary and special features aren't closed captioned.  Us deaf and hard-of-hearing folks want to enjoy those too.

 

(I refused to watch Leverage or anything else by John Rogers when he took pride that no webisodes or other Internet-only features were going to be closed-captioned.)

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