S01.E10: Sins Of The Father

[DearEvette]

For that matter, Cookie's attitude towards gay men, as exemplified in her behavior towards Michael, also seems to come from some strange antediluvian place. Even if we suppose she got stuck in a timewarp of sorts when she went to jail: that would have been in 1997, the world wasn't that different back then, as I remember it.

 

Cookie's attitude toward Michael, all things considered, is much more enlightened than some people still today.  She has no problems with homosexuals given her love for Jamal.  But I saw her attitude toward Michael as the same as her attitude toward Camilla.  This is a hanger on.  Not worthy of her son.  While she puts digs in on Camilla's age -- you wouldn't necessarily say Cookie hates all older women or might care one way or another if Camilla was dating some other younger dude. 

 

But even so there has still been a fairly big  cultural shift since 1997 led largely by technological innovations  that Cookie would have missed out on.  For instance, by 1997 there were probably still quit a few people who had only just knew what the internet was but had never really been on it. 

 

When my mother was diagnosed with being bi-polar in the late 80s/early90s, the doctor referred to it as 'Manic-Depression'  because of our "wha...? faces when she used the term Bi-Polar'.  We didn't start using the more modern terminology til much later and unlike Cookie we were all college educated and supposedly more aware of stuff than she would be. 

 

I actually thought, like the earlier episode when she didn't know what 'going viral' was, that was  great reminder that Cookie is smart but she's not educated.  And I loved the later scene of her looking it up.  Another indicator of how smart Cookie is.

Edited March 12, 2015 by DearEvette

[Rae Spellman]

 

Black people in the hood are not going to weekly therapy sessions, they're not going to counseling.  A lot of people are self medicating or told by their families to just pray it away. 

 

Some are going to weekly therapy. There are clinics in hoods that serve mostly black people. Also my Baptist, inner city dwelling grandmother and father both went to therapy for a bit after their divorces. In the 80s and 90s.

 

While there are people like Cookie and Lucious from the hood, I'm not sure how typical they are. I'd also think that even if people believe some of what their parents and grandparents believe, that people like Lucious and Cookie who were born in the late 60s/early 70s would have evolved somewhat from the positions of 55 year old Lee Daniel's father.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gigi43]

 

If I had to hear ALL BY MYSELF one more time I was going to jump through my TV. Big Lew didn’t need anybody alright; he didn’t need the 400K Cookie made hustling and slinging, or Bunkie taking care of the boys all those years, or Vernon being his right hand man while covering up his many misdeeds and murders, or Andre working 14-hour days using his Penn State education.  Nope. Lew did it all by himself.  Ooookay.

 

#BringLolaBack

 

This made me think about him actually doing his own version (the Lyon sound or whatever it is he keeps calling it) of Celine Dion's "All By Myself"... so thank you!

 

Milz, on 12 Mar 2015 - 09:20 AM, said:

    I've been in the DNA test Lola camp since Olivia dropped her off. But if Lucious is Lola's father, why is he letting Olivia take her away, especially when Lucious has this fantasy of remarrying Cookie and the two of them raising Lola? That's why I think Lucious only said that to get Reg's attention. As sad as it is to say, Lucious is going to die from his ALS and a bullet might be faster and less painful. And even sadder to say, Reg had the opportunity to kill Jamal and Hakeem, which would have left Andre as the Heir of Empire. And Lucious thinks Andre is damaged goods due to his bipolar disorder (and that's probably another reason why Lucious doesn't like Rhonda: he thinks she's manipulating/taking advantage of Andre.)

 

 

I figured part of Lucious' willingness to get shot was because Camilla's words about a wheelchair and colostomy bag were still in his head, and being shot is a quick, easy death. He's completely the kind of guy to view killing himself as "weak" and his God complex obvious plays into that. But taking a bullet for his family plays into his complex so nicely AND not having to deteriorate? He may have been hoping for the bullet on some level. Not nearly as much as I was hoping for it, though.

 

I don't know how accurate African American's considering mental disorders a "white thing" is, but, I do know that too many Italian's, in my experience with that half of my nationality, still think of bipolar/therapy/mental illness as a "non-Italian thing"; unless of course you're Italian and have been swayed by others into thinking you need more than just to get a grip. But mostly, thankfully, it is heavily in the generation of my grandmothers/great aunts & uncles, where as the age group of the middle aged vary, a lot ranging from Getting It too thinking it's a real thing, but really overused and "an excuse" by some. So I don't find the idea over done that it goes on if it does, but, I was surprised though Cookie said it was a white person thing, because from her, I just didn't expect it. Maybe it doesn't help that I recently saw a 20/20 (or one of those shows) on women in prison and there was a piece on how many women are being treated in jail every day, showed the long lines for meds everyday, ect. I've always been assuming though Cookie doesn't share Lucious' asinine view on white people in part because in jail, she had to be around women of all races who were having it just as bad as she was and others who were in much worse shape.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Gigi43

[Minneapple]

Cookie's attitude toward Michael, all things considered, is much more enlightened than some people still today. She has no problems with homosexuals given her love for Jamal. But I saw her attitude toward Michael as the same as her attitude toward Camilla. This is a hanger on. Not worthy of her son.

Yeah. Didn't Cookie once say something about how she wished Jamal was with someone who brought more to the table than just dinner? She doesn't care that Jamal is gay, just that Michael wasn't a big media draw or someone who will help Jamal on his path to rising stardom. And she thinks Camilla is yesterday's news given her age. She wants her sons to be in power couplings like Beyonce and Jay Z.

[luckyroll3]

In her final scene, Olivia confirmed that Lucious was most likely Lola's biological father as he admitted to Reggie. I don't think that Lucious was interested in being Lola's father without Cookie in the role of mother so he let her go with Olivia. Even if Jamal is her father, he isn't going to take her from Olivia. The show is letting this story lie dormant for the time being. I expect it will come back up again.

 

Maybe next season or season 3 they will SORAS Lola, and she returns as a vengeful, oversexed teenager who wants her shot in the music business!  

[Malbec]

I have to say, I still think that's a little unfair to Michael.  Not everybody wants to be part of a "power couple" -- there are relationships where one person is the rock star and the other person minds the home fires, and that's just what works for the people involved.  

 

Kind of a shame the writers gave Michael the bum's rush -- it seems like he would've been more receptive to having Lola in his and Jamal's life.  Although I guess that ended up not working out anyway.

[LydiaMoon1]

They need to confirm who is uncle and who is daddy. Leaving Lola out there unsure and the family unsure doesn't make sense.

In RL it wouldn't make sense, but it sure makes sense from a storytelling point of view.  Leaving the paternity issue unresolved opens up a wealth of future possibilities. For example, what if Olivia dies without paternity being firmly established?  Even if everyone believes that Lucifer is the child's biological, wasn't she married to Jamal when she had Lola?  If so, I think Jamal would be her legal father.  Just imagine the fights Jamal and Lew would have over Lola's upbringing and environment.

 

Yeah, I wanna see that.

Edited March 12, 2015 by LydiaMoon1

[angelita100]

How is it that Jennifer Hudson has an academy award? Every role I have seen her in, she is always one note and kinda

wooden. This continues to baffle me.

She also has a star on the Hollywood walk of fame.  She has a great publicist.  She earned her oscar and I like her but I do feel she is kinda overrated.

 

Cookie's dialogue in the beginning about how "bi-polar" was about white people really bothered me. It felt really dated - I supposed they were going for Cookie being stuck in the past 17 years ago where this kind of attitude was prevalent - but I always felt it was more prevalent among the much older people in the black community. That's how it always felt to me growing up.

 

I don't really agree.  For me it was the music therapy that kinda pushed Cookie over the edge.  I think mental illness is still kinda taboo. We'll take the pills but all psychiatrists and  "out there" solutions like musical therapists sound a bit strange. And I feel that Cookie and all the boys supported Andre, not just Rhonda but she is his wife. Of course she would be more involved. I don't look at this as if Rhonda represents all white people.  With the black characters only one has a reall issue with Andre's condition. I like that they showed Cookie trying to learn. 

 

I was suprised to learn that Andre had other episodes in the past.  Lucious seems to be in denial.  And the boys were young enough that they bought the explanation that he was overworking himself in college.  Little Jamal is the cutest cutest cutest.

 

As for homophobia, I feel that we should be able to have shows that discuss this issues without having to say and oooh look, white people feel the same way or are worse and we are not that bad.  White casts don't do that.  I think the more shows we have with black casts the less we will need for it be so benign  so we won't give anyone the wrong impression or take it personally that he is taLking about "me and all my friends and famiy."  My older relatives will say they have no issue but they better not kiss on tv because they still are offended to see it. Personally I think the church plays a role in this. 

I am reminded though of the NAACP boycotting The Color Purple because of how black men were represented.One show doesn't have to represent all IMO but if you look closely it doesn't.  The fact that Hakeem and Cookie are accepting speaks volumes - even more than dad not accepting.

[scrappyrunner75]

I loved the scenes between Jamal and Hakeem. Seeing Jamal grinning from ear to ear when Hakeem was rapping was so cool! I guess I am the odd ball because I love Lucious too. I think its because I'm obsessed with Terrance H., though. I want Cookie to be with Lucious not with Malcol, I did not like that at all, especially if he ends up playing her. I have felt like there was some thing fishy about that dude from the begining.

[Dee]

The scene of Lola quietly saying goodbye to the individual members of the Lyon family was beautiful.

[Empress1]

Plus, she probably has never met anyone before who'd been diagnosed with so serious a condition and bipolar disorder is likely not something she'd ever heard of before going to prison.

And I imagine she didn't hear the term in prison much either. As someone said, cookie is smart but not educated - and she's also extremely sheltered, having been locked away for nearly two decades. I had the thought when they showed her with the iPad (in a leopard print cover!) that someone would have had to teach her to use it, as she missed all these technological advances. I have no trouble believing that she didn't know what the term was.

I called Lucious being Lola's father early on - I assumed that's why they didn't do a DNA test. Raven Symone looked terrible.

Hakeem's lyrics are hilarious. I was like "You can't sing Drip Drop to a preschooler!"

The entire scene where Cookie thought Malcolm had a camera on her had. Me. Dying.

I always assumed Andre and Rhonda were 30ish, so never had a hard time buying that they'd been together ten years. Very interesting that Lucious never bothered to learn or retain anything about her. Cookie gave a little "tell him girl!" look when she was talking about coming from nothing; I want them to be allies.

Lastly, IMO Jennifer Hudson can't act. I loved Dreamgirls but she has done nothing for me since.

Seeing Jamal grinning from ear to ear when Hakeem was rapping was so cool!

I love their relationship. (The rap was garbage though.) Edited March 12, 2015 by Empress1

[AyeshaTheGreat]

Confused as to why the flashbacks to Andre's first breakdown "in college" seemingly took place in the 1990s? At least it seemed that way judging by the fashions everyone was sporting. Lola is pretty young, and I can't imagine Olivia's relationship with Jamal lasted that long. Shouldn't it have been the late 2000s or earlier this decade, when the Jamal/Olivia relationship was happening? Maybe there are such retro attitudes about homosexuality and mental illness on display because the writers aren't sure what year we're in.

This has been bothering me all season.  It seems that the writers/creators do not realize that "17 years ago" was not the 1980s.  They make it seem like Cookie was locked up in '88 instead of '98/97.

 

As for the rest of this episode, it bothered me that Empire has massive security at the office and even for the VIP section of the club yet seemingly no security in the huge home that Luscious built.  We all knew dude was carrying and even Luscious recognized he was sketchy but there was no backup to call.  Even though the family was executing an IPO, they still didn't seem to need security until it was time to escort Camilla to the airport.  That just took me out of the whole standoff scene.

[Milz]

 

I feel like the show made it clear that it doesn't matter who Lola's father is -- the Lyon family has "claimed" her as one of their own, with all the rights and privileges (and disadvantages) therein. If Olivia needs support from the Lyons, she will get it. I thought that was the point of that scene.

 

I definitely didn't trust Camilla, so I was also glad to see her gone. I don't believe she was sincere, or at least I believe her intentions were less than pure, because she was clearly trying to separate Hakeem from his family -- the bad (Lucious) and the good (Cookie and especially Jamal). I don't think she was purely using him, but she was the one who pushed him to want the last verse of the family song, and -- unlike someone like Rhonda -- seemed to have no career of her own outside "managing" Hakeem. Plus, as Cookie so eloquently put it before, "It's family business."

 

Lucious is a terrible person, but I couldn't help but cringe and feel an ounce of pity for his twisted definition of love. He's like a kid: Cookie wants part of the company and a daughter, so I'll give her part of the company and a daughter and she'll love me again. Yikes.

 

I love how Jamal is the go-to Shakespearian reference guy. He was the only person to relate Lucious' plan to have one of three sons take over the company as being from "King Lear," and he clearly knew his "Antony and Cleopatra." I also love Jamal's willingness to chair-dance to every song he hears, no matter how terrible. His love of music is truly infectious.

 

 

Jamal told Lola that she was still a Lyon (which is another reason why I don't think Lucious is her father.) Is it bad for me to want Olivia killed or out of the picture so that Lola can come back and live with them?

 

Camilla's "I'm coming back as soon as you're dead!" speech was almost like the Wicked Witch of the West telling Dorothy she'll get her and her little dog too. She's a smart cookie so I think her ripping up the check and throwing it at Lucious was a very deliberate act---in the event Hakeem would ask if she took the money. But that cunning bastard Lucious tells Hakeem "what do you think?" (And of course, Hakeem stands there thinking his ripe berry is rotten.)

 

I like it too when Jamal informed them that Antony and Cleopatra die in the end. But the Shakespearean references leads me to another ponder----Is the Andre Rhonda relationship MacBeth and Lady MacBeth or is it Othello and Desdemona? (Yeah, Lady MacB and Desdemona both die in the end too but that's best the point....:-) )

 

I know right? The lyrics are just so ridiculous, they used to make me cringe, but now I just find them weirdly endearing. Like, whenever he pulls out his ridiculous "cool" lyrics, I just want to pat Hakeem on the head.

 

 

LOL.

 

The ALS isn't going to kill Lucius, its going to be a Murder on the Orient Express thing where all of his family/the people he`s pissed off file into his room while he`s sleeping, and take turns stabbing him.

 

Now that I would like to see!

[Vixenstud]

Dang, but ya’ll are good up in here!  Ya’ll called Lucious being Lola’s daddy, I didn’t think they would stoop that low.  My bad!

 

Gotdamn, but Raven Symone is BUH-LESSED in the breasts department….if you look up ‘Tig ol’ bitties’ in the Urban Dictionary you’ll see her smiling face!  Got teary eyed at the goodbye scene with Lola Bear (she reminds me how my daughter Bennett Grace would have been like if I had ever given birth.  Le sigh.) 

 

 

Hakeem trying to bust out "Drip Drop" as a bedtime song for Lola was hilarious.

He so silly, lol.  Loved Jamal/Hakeem’s lullaby to her.  Btw, Jussie has the most beautiful smile, it can make a shitty day turn lovely.

 

Cookie so nasty, wasn’t wearin’ draws when she was talking dirty to Gumby.  Speaking of which, I just cain’t be on the Derek Luke is love train.

 

 

I have felt like there was some thing fishy about that dude from the beginning

For me, he’s just too young and ya’ll know how I feel about that fuckin’ part in his head!

 

Family tragedy aside, Jennifer Hudson bugs the hell outta me; I cain’t put my finger on it, but err’time I see her I want to throw a soiled diaper at her head.

 

Yo Vernon, ever see New Jack City?  ‘Cuz you were channeling Pookie all episode! 

 

I see Naomi Campbell coming back, Camilla’s departure was too easy and I’m with Lucious in her having an angle in being with Hakeem.

 

 

Is Lucious really going to ostracize the one guy who knows ALL of his dirty secrets, especially the one that can get him put in jail?

I say this err’time he sells wolf tickets to Vernon…dude, you do know that he knows that you killed Bunky and it would take him two seconds to tell Cookie and the world, right?!

 

 

Also read some of the furs belong to the wife of exec. wife, again,don't remember who, just know it wasn't Lee's.

You stupid, LMAO.

 

 

#BringLolaBack

This.  Lola is love!

 

Neurochick, truly you are the poster for ‘Black Don’t Crack’….damn, I never would have thought 55.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Vixenstud

[Neurochick]

LOL, that pic isn't me.  I have a few out there but that one isn't me.  

[Timetoread]

I LOVE Lucius.  Yeah I said it.  He is horrible, absolutely horrible, but God if I dont' find him entertaining.  His sense of entitlement is pathological, he just thinks he can move people where he needs them to be at the moment and that everything will work out.  He thinks that because he thinks that he owns them.  And it is because of that that I actually wonder if he really is Lola's father - and I was one of the early predicters that he was.  There is no way in the world he would let her grow up in less than stellar circumstances or let some thug march in declaring his daughter as his own.  There's no way he'd let her leave his sight.  If he keeps his nemesis, Jamal, no way he'd lose track of his baby girl.  My money is on Lola being Jamal's or Andre's.  Voting on the latter because in that last moment I felt that Lucius was self-sacrificing in almost a kamikaze way.  He can die now, and skip deteriorating from ALS, and let everybody hate him but preserve the truth.

 

I disagree with everybody's anger about the discrepancy in the shares.  Lucius doesn't owe any of them his company.  Not even Andre - I'm pretty sure that Andre earned a salary for his work as CFO. And not leaving them running his company doesn't mean disinheriting them, they would still inherit his property and assets.  In fact the only one in the family that could make even a marginal claim to Empire it is Cookie.

 

Also, seeing how Ronda has been treated after 10 years with Andre makes me forgive the disdain she has for that family.  Bipolar or not, Andre needs to find his balls and insist that his family treat his wife with respect.  They don't have to like her but they WILL respect her or suffer his wrath.

 

I think what has been established is that everybody who wants Empire hates it's current owner.  But he IS the owner so they are either going to have to fake dealing with him or kill him for it.  Can't wait to see what their decision is.

[DearEvette]

That sweater dress was smoking hot! would have loved to see her shoes. I read who Cookie's stylist is, forgot her name, but as to be expected she is the same "color" as Cookie. Also read some of the furs belong to the wife of exec. wife, again,don't remember who, just know it wasn't Lee's.

 

 

 The costume designer is Rita McGhee.  The furs belong to her mother-in-law.   Her mother-in-law is Janet Bailey who is the wife of Phillip Bailey from Earth, Wind & Fire.  Here is link to Jezebel that does a run-down of all the furs Cookie has worn to date: http://themuse.jezebel.com/every-single-fur-coat-cookie-has-worn-on-empire-so-far-1690938569/+katedries

 

 

re: The shares:.  I know nothing about business dealings etc.etc.  but it seems to me that if the family had to sign legal papers in order for the IPO to happen, that means that they have some legal say in the company, which means the shares aren't solely his.  If it was just his company then there was no reason for them all to be there to sign anything -- except Cookie who is now on the board.  He would have been the sole person to sign-off.  He also has a voting board.  It seems like there were agreements made in advance of the signing so Lucious unilaterally reneged on some agreements, if not legal then verbal.

Edited March 12, 2015 by DearEvette

[maczero]

Cookie's attitude toward Michael, all things considered, is much more enlightened than some people still today.  She has no problems with homosexuals given her love for Jamal.  But I saw her attitude toward Michael as the same as her attitude toward Camilla.  This is a hanger on.  

I don't think Michael could be described as a "hanger on".  Michael seemed to be content with Jamal playing small clubs and even stayed in his corner when they left that comfy loft that was being paid for by Lucius.  In fact, Michael was more concerned about Jamal's career getting in the way of their relationship.  Sadly, I think Cookie was right in her assessment of their relationship.  Michael would never want to make the compromises to fit in the new world Jamal now inhabits.

Gotdamn, but Raven Symone is BUH-LESSED in the breasts department….if you look up ‘Tig ol’ bitties’ in the Urban Dictionary you’ll see her smiling face!

Too true!

[drivethroo]

Well, until Cookie got let out of jail, the only Lyon family members she'd had to interact with are Andre (husband), Luscious (father in law) and Jamal & Hakeem (brothers in law).

 

We haven't seen any evidence that Jamal & Hakeem dislike or mistreat Rhonda.  We haven't seen them interact with Rhonda much at all.  Cookie may have the same feelings about Rhonda that she did about Michael and Camilla; namely that she's a hanger-on.  We've seen no evidence that Cookie dislikes Rhonda just because she's white.

 

I think it's unfair to paint all the Lyons except for Luscious as racists who hate Rhonda.

[Whitley Trillbert]

With this being a soap i wouldn't be surprised if next season Lola will be SORASed until a wild child 18 yr . 

 

I can't remember who posted it but I like the idea of Malcolm and Camilla being grifters working a con on the Lyons. They did kind of give each other a look when they were in the car. 

Edited March 12, 2015 by Whitley Trillbert

[Malbec]

I guess what I'm wondering is, who is good enough for the Lyon boys?  When Michael can't make the sacrifices for Jamal's career he sucks, but when Rhonda and Camilla do the opposite and try to push Andre and Hakeem's respective careers they're also considered greedy users.  Who can win?

 

I don't like to blame the parents for everything, but at a certain point, if there are three kids in the family and NONE of their partners are good enough... I'm going to look at the parents.  Either for having ridiculous standards or for failing to teach the kids how to find a functional relationship.  The sad thing is, I actually don't think any of the three sons' relationship choices are 100% terrible (Camilla seems to have some genuine feelings for Hakeem; Andre & Rhonda clearly have a long history together), but the hard line taken by Lucious and to a lesser extent Cookie make things worse than they need to be. 

[Dee]

I think, outside of Lucious, the other Lyons don't have much a problem with Rhonda.

 

Hakeem and Jamal don't seem to mind her, and, although Cookie's viewed Rhonda with measured suspicion, when Rhonda chewed Lucious out about the IPO shares, Cookie seemed mildly impressed at her daughter-in-law's spunk.

 

 

[40Love]

Some are going to weekly therapy. There are clinics in hoods that serve mostly black people. Also my Baptist, inner city dwelling grandmother and father both went to therapy for a bit after their divorces. In the 80s and 90s.

 

That's a blessing... that's so good to hear. But sadly this is not the case of my Baptist church.

 

Sure, there are folks taking part in therapy for drug/alcohol addictions. But, many of my contemporaries in church (people between 40 -50) do not have favorable opinions of folks suffering from mental illness (schizophrenia, depression, bi-polar) if you even hear about it all. It's something that shouldn't be discussed and if it is happening... it should prayed away.

 

And don't get me started on homosexuality and equal marriage rights... The venom I hear on this subject ranges from "polite" condemnation to outright anger with predictions of hell on earth. A conversation I had once with a deacon from a different church was especially mean-spirited and hateful. 

 

The younger generations (folks in their 20s) are more open-minded... and views are definitely changing.  But based on my own experiences, the attitudes presented in Empire still exist.

 

I didn't take it as some kind of indictment of the whole black community. But, I think it's fair to address the issue... not necessarily for black America.. but for America period.

[SimoneS]

Like I said previously, a lot of young black people are watching Empire so if Lee Daniels wants to push back against homophobia, negative attitudes about mental illness, or any other relevant topic in the black community, I think that is a positive. These young people (including those from all other ethnicities) are the ones who will change these attitudes for the better in coming generations. I haven't see anything that the show that doesn't ring true about these controversial topics. Even if I don't share these attitudes, I have encountered them far too often. They are shamefully prevalent. Frankly, the people offended that these topics are on Empire can change the channel or turn off the tv. It is not hard.

 

I have come to like Rhonda a lot. She loves Andre and supported his schemes, but was totally supportive when Jamal came out and stood up for Jamal again when Lucious shafted  I presumed that she and Andre met in business school. After all, we saw her running some type of business in earlier episodes. So I was not surprised that she could understand the legal documents for the IPO.

Edited March 12, 2015 by SimoneS

[VLove]

My super random two cents:

 

Shake Down (the song Lucious was singing with Mary J Blige) was on the Growing Pains cd .  It was released in December 2007.  So there's that.  (I think MJB was playing herself, no?)

 

I didn't find Lucious' reveal/"kill me instead" to be heroic.  He knows he's dying.  Why not go out a "hero" instead of by a body that betrays you.  You know: live like a G, die like a G.

 

I absolutely agree that Lucious is not cheating his kids by changing the amount of their IPO shares - in fact, I think giving Cookie an equal share was the right thing to do (one of the few right things he's done). 

 

If Lola is his daughter and not his granddaughter, will she get IPO shares, too?  (I think JAMAL needs to get that cheek swabbed, ASAP.)

 

I really appreciated that Cookie was decent to Olivia. 

 

Was the marriage to a gay man Olivia's payment for becoming a star?  Because that clearly didn't pan out.  I'm not sure that Lucious knew Olivia was having a baby or knows Lola to be his for sure.  Because wouldn't Jamal have known, too, as he was actually married and (I'm assuming) living with her.  Unless, she got pregnant, told Lucious the baby was his and bounced - though I feel like if Lucious knew about Lola he would have made Olivia pass her off as Jamal's.  Just another way for Lucious to try to control his gay son. "You have a daughter, you have to act a certain way, etc."

 

As Lola was saying her goodbyes, with her little bear (monkey?) it dawned on me that someone should have bought that child a stuffed lion.

 

I, for one, knew that Rhonda would notice what she was signing.  It was the first time I liked her - and even though I don't agree that Andre is "owed" anything, I like a woman who is strong when her man can't be, and doesn't just willy nilly sign shit.

 

If I were the notary, I would have snuck out in all the confusion.  I don't need that kind of drama in my life.  I mean, how much does a notary make?  Not nearly enough to fucks with the likes of those crazy Lyons.

 

If ANY man said that nonsense about falling for his commanders wife to me, I would head for the hills.  Yo - you just met me.  You might enjoy me, you might want to go to bed with me, you might want to know me better - but grandiose love declarations?  Get fuck outta here.  You supposed to be some super military dude or something... and you don't know how to not fall for the bosses ex wife?  I don't get the set up vibe from him, but he can't be as professional/good at his job as he says he is.  You running around falling in love and shit when you should be working.  On the bosses dime, no less. Heh.

 

I was super uncomfortable with Jennifer Hudson's therapy.  I'll be honest and say that I don't know much about bipolar disorder or how to treat it.  I do know that her behavior was completely inappropriate.  We enrolled him in music therapy but we're gonna pray?  Cool.  But can we pray sitting in chairs, please?  She needs to be fired, asap.

Edited March 12, 2015 by VLove

[Rick Kitchen]

Wasn't Malcolm gone at that point? He was driving Camilla away.

 

Yeah, but his security team should have gun checkpoints.

[phoenics]

No one is saying that homophpbia is a "black thing". There is a certain type of homophobia that is very well known with many black people. Again, when people say this, they aren't talking about all black people. As a black man, I've grown up in a culture where being openly hostile about gay people is just accepted. Hip Hop culture is rampant with dialogue and lyrics that are disrespectful and rude to gay people. It's just a open kind of hatred or at the very least, misunderstanding of homosexuality that many people don't seem to understand. Of course, homophobia (actually I hate saying that word because I don't think a lot of people are actually scared of gay people) is a world wide thing. It's just a different in a way that's hard to explain. Plus, there is the whole down low thing that, while yes many men are in the closet for different reasons, there are a alarming about of black males that keep that part of their sexuality hidden. I think a lot of it is out of fear of how they will be perceived by other black people. But, if you don't live in it, I don't think you can really understand it.

I'm black and a woman - and I have lived experiences about this that were damaging in my family (the down-low thing especially) - so I think I understand it pretty well.

For the record - my argument wasn't that Daniels' experience isn't legitimate. My argument is that he's projecting this as universal in the black community (the "oh to be the son of a black man" dialogue) and that's not okay. Neither is the treatment of mental illness. It may be prevalent in the black community - but it's not ONLY prevalent in the black community.

There is a difference and there's a nuance in what I've been saying on this thread about the homophobia and mental illness issues with respect to the black community, but I believe most posters have either ignored that nuance or just don't see it.

I'm concerned with how Daniels/Strong are portraying these issues as almost exclusive to the black community when it's not.

Having lived in CA when Prop 8 didn't pass the first time and the nasty vitriol directed at the ENTIRE black community as a result of polling data afterward, I think my point about media representation is fairly valid. Because of that data, regardless of how you might have voted yourself, if you were black - trust me, you got flogged by people. I know I did, even though I voted against it!

Edited March 12, 2015 by phoenics

[phoenics]

I think it was more because 1) it was coming from Rhonda and 2) it was her own son.  His brothers didn't come out to say "Andre has a problem, Mom."  More to the point, we have a day that is sponsored by a telecommunications company in Canada call "Let's Talk" to discuss mental illness to drive the point home that it's something people don't want to talk about no matter who or what they are.  I think she just didn't want to believe it until Andre flat out said that he is bi polar.  Which is better than Lucious knowing and not being supportive.

I like how you've explained this - I think that if Cookie had only reacted like she was uncomfortable talking about it I would have been okay - when she went all "white people problems" on Rhonda it simply felt heavy handed and overwrought (to me). Perhaps because mental illness is a huge issue in my family and it's never been treated that way. Ever. And I'm black. And my family spans multiple economic lines, so it's not a "hood" vs. "upper class" thing - it just wasn't a big deal and it was freely discussed.

I know that is a rare thing, but even amongst my friends (of all classes) it wasn't.

That's probably why I rankle at the suggestion (by Daniels/Strong) that this is solely a "black thing".

[phoenics]

Frankly, the people offended that these topics are on Empire can change the channel or turn off the tv. It is not hard.

I don't think ANYONE has been offended that the topics are on Empire - just the way they're being handled dramatically in terms of diversity.

[tennisgurl]

I feel like its hard to figure out how much a creator is projecting onto their story, and how much is just naturally how the story is unfolding. Daniels pretty clearly has an agenda with his focus on homophobia and mental illness in the African American community, and he wants to use this platform to talk about it. Personally, I think he hasn't gotten to the point of lecturing or making grand assumptions about all black people (although there were a few scenes that you could make a case for being a bit too simplistic), but I really have no place to judge on that.

 

What I find interesting is that, a lot of the attitudes on the show are very similar to the attitudes I have seen where I grew up, in a predominantly white, rural, blue collar community. Homosexuality was a "thing people don't talk about". There were some out gay people, and the more polite people said extra prayers for them in church, and the not polite people...were not polite. 

 

Mental illness was discussed even less, especially by older people. Mental illness, to a lot of people I knew growing up, was a thing that rich, lazy city liberals made up so they could sit on their couches, and talk about themselves. Good, hard working, God fearing people were strong enough to fight through any problems they were having. If someone acted "crazy", it was blamed on alcohol or meth. I didn't realize my dad took medication for depression until I was in my 20s, when I started taking medication for mild depression and an anxiety disorder. Its something that is NOT TALKED ABOUT. Then I found out my parents suspected I might have anxiety way back in high school, but never wanted to bring it up. We are all a lot more open about it now, but still.

 

Its fascinating to see these same issues play out in a different community than the one I grew up with. And not every white, rural community is the same as mine, just like not every black community is the same. I hope this show never starts making full on proclamations about life in the AA community, because I would hate to see people make proclamations about the world I grew up in. Things really have gotten better lately, partially because of increased awareness in the media. I can see both sides, really.   

[BigBlueMastiff]

 

And Hakeem to Yoko: "The older the berry the sweeter the fruit" LMAO

Ha, this bugged me, too, could he have picked a better adjective, like finer, riper, anything but older.

 

 

How is it that Jennifer Hudson has an academy award? Every role I have seen her in, she is always one note and kinda

wooden. This continues to baffle me.

Agreed, her delivery is monotone to me, similar to Beyonce's acting voice. Jennifer ha so make emotion when she sings, it's weird to see so little of it when she acts. Maybe it's just her voice, but it comes off flat.

[phoenics]

I feel like its hard to figure out how much a creator is projecting onto their story, and how much is just naturally how the story is unfolding. Daniels pretty clearly has an agenda with his focus on homophobia and mental illness in the African American community, and he wants to use this platform to talk about it. Personally, I think he hasn't gotten to the point of lecturing or making grand assumptions about all black people (although there were a few scenes that you could make a case for being a bit too simplistic), but I really have no place to judge on that.

 

What I find interesting is that, a lot of the attitudes on the show are very similar to the attitudes I have seen where I grew up, in a predominantly white, rural, blue collar community. Homosexuality was a "thing people don't talk about". There were some out gay people, and the more polite people said extra prayers for them in church, and the not polite people...were not polite. 

 

Mental illness was discussed even less, especially by older people. Mental illness, to a lot of people I knew growing up, was a thing that rich, lazy city liberals made up so they could sit on their couches, and talk about themselves. Good, hard working, God fearing people were strong enough to fight through any problems they were having. If someone acted "crazy", it was blamed on alcohol or meth. I didn't realize my dad took medication for depression until I was in my 20s, when I started taking medication for mild depression and an anxiety disorder. Its something that is NOT TALKED ABOUT. Then I found out my parents suspected I might have anxiety way back in high school, but never wanted to bring it up. We are all a lot more open about it now, but still.

 

Its fascinating to see these same issues play out in a different community than the one I grew up with. And not every white, rural community is the same as mine, just like not every black community is the same. I hope this show never starts making full on proclamations about life in the AA community, because I would hate to see people make proclamations about the world I grew up in. Things really have gotten better lately, partially because of increased awareness in the media. I can see both sides, really.

Race and socio-economic power are very much correlated - but I wonder if some of what many experience (in their communities) can find a common thread in economics and access to power. Race definitely influences economics and access to power, but people without the race barrier can experience loss of socio-economic power as well due to poverty and not being able to access information and knowledge... And this becomes a vicious cycle over time.

I suppose it's a tightrope with Daniels. Obviously he cares about the community he came from and wants to uncover issues that we can work to improve upon and get better at... we can enlighten each other. On the one hand he could focus on making sure to present diverse viewpoints and not one myopic "black experience" or to only show other "black experiences" through the eyes of one jaundiced character, but if he's honestly trying to shock the community at large out of being complacent about these issues, then I supposed I can understand the heavy handed approach even if I don't fully agree with it (especially since my experience has been different).

[Dee]

I floved Michelle and Andre's scenes. I felt they radiated chemistry, and regretted that more of the episode wasn't focused on them.

 

Dre was relaxed and soft with Michelle in a way that he hasn't been with anyone else in his family, including Rhonda.

 

Also, I found it refreshing that sex wasn't used as a cure-all, and that the other forms of treatment available to Dre, meds and music therapy, weren't arbitrarily ditched for Jesus, which would've been a wee bit too Tyler Perry-ish for me.

 

I quite liked that prayer was simply presented as another option when alternative modes of healing aren't fulfilling.

[phoenics]

Hey - question... when Rhonda tried to be affectionate with Andre - he angrily shoved her away. WAs there some dialogue I missed where he explained why? I kinda didn't get that scene - she's been ride or die for him from jump.

[Empress1]

I presumed that she and Andre met in business school. After all, we saw her running some type of business in earlier episodes. So I was not surprised that she could understand the legal documents for the IPO.

Andre said he went to Wharton; I assumed Rhonda did too (though she's just said Penn, not Wharton), so yeah, I assumed she'd know what she was looking at too. And I don't sign anything without reading it, so I liked that about her.

 

 

 

I was super uncomfortable with Jennifer Hudson's therapy.  I'll be honest and say that I don't know much about bipolar disorder or how to treat it.  I do know that her behavior was completely inappropriate.  We enrolled him in music therapy but we're gonna pray?  Cool.  But can we pray sitting in chairs, please?

I can't remember if they mentioned meds in Andre's initial session with his family. (The doctor they brought in when he had his first breakdown did mention them, I think.) I hope so, because while music and prayer are powerful, bipolar disorder requires consistent medication. Andre's brain works differently than, say, mine, and he needs meds to calibrate it. They have shown him dumping out his meds and Rhonda has referenced his meds more than once, so I hope they stay on that path and don't indicate that music therapy cured him, because it can't.

 

I'm black and I have a second cousin who has depression (and is also an addict in recovery) and his parents, who are 80ish, don't talk about it - ESPECIALLY when he's having a bad time. I have another second cousin who is gay and his father all but disowned him when he came out, so he's semi-closeted within his own family, even though his father has been dead over 15 years. We know he's gay but he doesn't talk about it, and he doesn't bring anyone around. I think it's terrible that he feels he has to do that. So while Lucious and Cookie are much younger, I do have relatives who respond to homosexuality and mental illness in the ways they have, so it doesn't seem far off to me (though a terrible shame re: Lucious).

Edited March 12, 2015 by Empress1

[One Tough Cookie]

There is still a huge stigma about mental illness, regardless of race or class. I saw Cookie's initial refusal to accept her son's condition as that

 

 

My Irish American in laws refused to accept my bi-polar diagnosis for years. 25 of them in fact.  It's only recently {and I'm 63} that my MIL actually uttered the word bi-poplar and depression regarding me without implying it was something one could just "snap out of".  I blame age more than race/ethnicity.

[CorgiNarnia]

Ah, flashbacks.  The kind that do things like give Jamal a fro and Rhonda a braided ponytail, in order for us to "pretend" that the actors are totally ten or so years younger.  I don't care what show it is: that never gets old.

I enjoyed Andre and Rhonda's "college look." The stylist really worked hard on this.

Andre: hoodie with Penn logo

Rhonda: sweater tied around shoulders, ivy-style

[jsbt]

I really like J-Hud and Trai Byers together, but they should have her booked for at least 5-6 episodes (which they can't right now) and build the relationship. It jumped in pretty quick this week, but I was glad she didn't go straight to sleeping with him. She's had maybe six lines, they can slow down a little. This phase of Andre's story needs a lot more time but I doubt it'll get it, we're already at the finale.

 

I never thought Michael was not good enough or not ambitious enough for Jamal. He was simply a part of a different, slower, more down to earth life. He goes to school, Jamal plays music, etc. Cookie was, IMO, unfair to Michael because she called him as being unfit and unequipped for her son's future lifestyle as an up and coming star. She was looking out for her son and her dreams for him, which is very true to her character, but I still felt she did him wrong. Unfortunately, Jamal's own choices drove Michael away after that. They weren't gonna work out because they didn't know how to talk to each other about the situation and compensate for each other's changing worlds, and yeah, Cookie meddled a little too.

Edited March 12, 2015 by jsbt

[Dee]

Hey - question... when Rhonda tried to be affectionate with Andre - he angrily shoved her away. WAs there some dialogue I missed where he explained why? I kinda didn't get that scene - she's been ride or die for him from jump.

 

Andre believed Rhonda had him institutionalized, which was compounded by her signing off for a mandatory 48 hour psychiatric hold of him, which he viewed as a betrayal.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Dee

[angelita100]

I guess I don't get how the words translate to all blacks when clearly all the blacks on the show are not homophobic. I just can't look sideways at the writers when we live in a world with no black gay basketball players. There's a reason for that and a light needs to be shined.  I'm not embarassed nor do I think any thinking person will believe this a wholey inclusive problem.  I also live in California and remember the news surrounding prop 8.  I didn't embrace the flack because I know how I voted but it's amazing to me that many of us don't embrace the struggles of others be it immigrants (taking our jobs) or gay(you can't compare that to our struggles).  I've seen and heard real hostility on these issues.

[phoenics]

Andre believed Rhonda had him institutionalized, which was compounded by her signing off for a mandatory 48 hour psychiatric hold of him, which he viewed as a betrayal.

Thanks - I missed the very beginning of their scene and didn't hear what he said to her.

[phoenics]

I guess I don't get how the words translate to all blacks when clearly all the blacks on the show are not homophobic. I just can't look sideways at the writers when we live in a world with no black gay basketball players. There's a reason for that and a light needs to be shined.  I'm not embarassed nor do I think any thinking person will believe this a wholey inclusive problem.  I also live in California and remember the news surrounding prop 8.  I didn't embrace the flack because I know how I voted but it's amazing to me that many of us don't embrace the struggles of others be it immigrants (taking our jobs) or gay(you can't compare that to our struggles).  I've seen and heard real hostility on these issues.

I think it's mostly due to the hamfisted writing. At least for me. For example, the other black dude commenting about his black father when he's clearly not even American really does make it seem like the writing is saying very loudly that this is a BLACK issue due to nothing more than skin color. But it's not.

I don't know if Strong/Daniels realize how THICK dude's accent is or if we're supposed to perceive him as American, but well, nope.

That line so could have been left out - it wasn't even necessary to illustrate the struggles they both faced as gay men and gay black men. But since Daniels/Strong wanted us to see them both bonding over the fact that their black fathers were homophobic, they pushed the dialogue even though it really didn't fit the character they'd created.

I think we all (human) could learn to be more empathetic to the struggles of others... but sometimes, having struggled yourself makes you predisposed to despise similar struggles in others - kinda like how sometimes you hate the flaws other people have that are YOUR flaws. That sums Lucious up pretty well, imo.

[anonymiss]

I agree this was my least-favorite episode. 

 

I did like how Lucious made a selfless show of trying to be the hero but then Malcolm swooped in and got all the credit for saving Cookie.

[2AT]

Not only do I think that Andre is going to be born again, but I can see him becoming the preacher of a mega church and taking down Lucious! LOL!

My take on this episode's Maury moment is that we, the audience (via the brief flashback where Olivia and Lucious exchanged "knowing looks") are the only ones who are supposed to know for sure that Lucious is Lola's father. All that Jamal and the rest of the Lyons family seem to know is that Jamal may not be Lola's father. What confused me however, was the reactions of those who witnessed the standoff. For such a usually over the top group, I found everyone, especially Cookie, to be way too calm. After the exchange with Hakeem and Jamal, they all seemed to accept that Lucious said what he said to literally take the bullet for his family. Maybe this will revisted in the finale?

Edited March 13, 2015 by 2AT

[tennisgurl]

 

 

Andre: hoodie with Penn logo

Rhonda: sweater tied around shoulders, ivy-style

That totally cracked me up. Its exactly what I imaged Andre and Rhonda looked like in college.

 

I really hope this thing with J Hud doesn't mess up Andre and Rhonda`s marriage. I have weirdly come to really like them together. 

[WearyTraveler]

I don't think the writers/creators are portraying homophobia and prejudices against mental illness as characteristics of the entire black community.  Neither are they saying these problems are exclusive to the black community.

 

Let's take Homophobia.  Andre, Hakeem, Vernon, Delphine, Cookie, Tiana, and the guys at Ghetto Ass Studios all seem to have absolutely no problem with Jamal's sexual orientation; so, it seems that the writers/creators are saying some people in the black community have a problem with this, not all people in the community.

 

Regarding Mental Illness, Vernon is a big Andre supporter, Jamal and Hakeem seem to love and support their brother, and Cookie was getting more information and educating herself on his son's illness (despite her original reaction).  To me, that seems to be another indication that what the writers/creators are trying to say is that some people in the black community stigmatize and/or live in denial when it comes to mental illness, but not all people do.

 

As for the show implying that these views are exclusive to the black community, I think it's too big of a leap.  There are barely any white characters on this show, so, it's difficult for the writers/creators to represent the white community's views with regards to these issues.  Unless they start adding white characters with the sole purpose of trying to convey an accurate representation of reality, there's not much that can be done (and I hope they don't do something like that).  I don't think we should assume that because there are no white people with prejudices against mental illness on the show that the writers/creators are saying that this issue is exclusive to the black community.  They simply don't need a bunch of white characters, and so, we don't see the views of the white folk on this show.  I'm perfectly fine with that.

Edited March 12, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[Empress1]

 

Rhonda: sweater tied around shoulders, ivy-style

Ha - I went to an Ivy and no one did that, but I can see Rhonda doing it as a way to assimilate since she came from nothing, by her admission. Particularly around Andre's family if she knew they were wealthy.

[Happytobehere]

They need to confirm who is uncle and who is daddy. Leaving Lola out there unsure and the family unsure doesn't make sense.

I still don't understand why they just don't swab the baby's cheek. For all we know Lola may not be a Lyon at all.

This is where I am. I always knew they were going to go the Lucious is the daddy route, but in light of Lucifer's never-ending arrogance and entitlement, the ultimate joke would be if it was revealed that neither Lynon was the daddy. Where was Vernon when the conception was going down? Now wouldn't that be a kick in the gut.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Yeah, but his security team should have gun checkpoints.

Even if he had checkpoints, they probably wouldn't have done much good as Vernon would have said "they're with me" and they would have probably sailed past.

[phoenics]

I think Malcolm was with Camilla during all of this and as Chicago Redshirt mentions, Olivia and dude being with Vernon probably sailed them right past the checkpoints.

Edited March 13, 2015 by phoenics