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Sweet Fellowship: Duggars and Friends (aka the Bates Family and Other TLC Families Thread)

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I just watched the ABC special on the Bates.  It was so refreshing to hear Alyssa say that she would be happy with 6-10 kids and didn't know if she could handle 19.  She also mentioned how peaceful it is without 20 other people around.  Good for you, Alyssa!  I can't imagine any of the Duggar kids being so honest.

 

Once again I have to express how hideous Erin & Chad's bedroom is.  It's like a Disney princess threw up all over it.  

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Except Kelly also said he cried for months over losing Sarah.  How is that protecting anyone's heart?  Maybe if they didn't go into every relationship hoping and planning for their future spouse, they'd experience less heartache.

And was he crying over Sarah, or simply the idea of her and what that represented for the rest of his life? Certainly if they were never comfortable with one another and able to communicate effectively, they couldn't have truly been in love with the other. 

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I do think Priss might be mildly delayed in some way. I've always had a bad feeling about Pa Keller and it wouldn't surprise me if there was an abuse situation going on there. TFDW has abuser written all over him. Erin Bates and her husband seem like the more mild manner version of them. I don't think Erin's husband is gay, but he has a mean look in his eyes and she's almost as dim as Priss. Mrs. Keller looked like one of the scared sister wives you see on a  Dateline special when we first saw her, so I'm not holding out hope she would have protected her daughters. 

 

 

And all of this time I thought that I was the only one who had this feeling. There is absolutely nothing warm or welcoming about that man. 

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Agreed! And if I were Zach or any of these  kids, I would be pissed off and mortified that my mom was sharing all this personal relationship stuff on a blog.

 

Kelly makes Zach, in particular, seem like a complete moron.  She makes him sound like an over grown mama's boy who fell madly in love with a girl he's never touched, and barely spoken to.  Then he has a sobbing breakdown lasting for months when the engagement ended.  I can't believe he isn't a laughing stock.  If I was running against him in politics, I would make sure this info was shared in robo-calls and political pamphlets.

 

I especially hate how Kelly stresses their "purity" - a word that really shouldn't apply to anyone over two years old.

 

I do think Priss might be mildly delayed in some way. 

 

 

And she will have sole responsibility for homeschooling her kids.

 

What enrages me the most about the Bates parents, is they know it's almost impossible to financially take care of such large families.  If they didn't accept charity and receive loans from their son, they couldn't make it.  And what do they do with this hard-earned knowledge?  Nothing.  Absolutely nothing.  They do not encourage a greater education, they do not talk about sensible ideas like smaller families.  Just like they stupidly sat around singing joyful songs while the twister swirled around, they are willing to just wing it and hope God provides.  There's no back up plan, and no emergency plan.  Oh, except for God ................

Edited by RedheadZombie
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Kelly makes Zach, in particular, seem like a complete moron.  She makes him sound like an over grown mama's boy who fell madly in love with a girl he's never touched, and barely spoken to.  Then he has a sobbing breakdown lasting for months when the engagement ended.

 

You know, that's really true and not something I'd ever thought of before.  I always just kind of saw it as Zach BEING a complete moron and Kelly just reporting the facts, but now I wonder if she's putting a little slant on things on purpose.  Rumor is she really doesn't care for Zach's wife; I wonder if that has something to do with it. 

 

And I too get the controlling vibe from Gayvid.  I think he loves the idea of a wife who will be at his beck and call, will do everything he says to do without questioning it, will roll over for sex on command, and will stare at him glassy-eyed in support of his latest stupid venture.  That's what Gothardism says a wife should be, and he couldn't be happier with the concept.  Perhaps that's why he picked Priscilla.  And I can't shake the vibe that should she ever step out of line, she will have hell to pay.  I'm not saying he's someone who would beat her or anything, or even shout, but he seems like the sort who would turn very cruel with his words if he felt he'd been wronged and needed to put the little woman in her place.

 

I get no negative vibes from Chad Paine, though.  Maybe because if he were really into the whole "everything the man wants goes" mindset, I can't help but think he would've said something about Barbie's Dream Bedroom.  Kelly also makes Brandon Keilen sound like a little sweetheart - maybe a bit dimwitted, but Michael is hardly MENSA material either.  I hope that works out well for them, since that boy had professed love for Michael before they were officially courting (and wrote that fairy tale about their lives, the heck?).  He's given away way too much of his heart for either one of them to back out now. 

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The Kellers shunning any of their kids is more of an internet interpretation.  The Duggars disinvited Daniel and wife from Thanksgiving and left it to the Kellers to explain.  Daniel went on a FB rant about it.  There are pictures on the internet of the Kellers with Susannah and baby and everyone seems fine.  Rebekah and her husband left the fold quickly after marriage if they were really in the fold and she's been accepted at all family functions. 

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If David is gay and knows it -- or even if he doesn't know or admit it but realizes he is "different" or was ever mocked by other guys in their culture -- he must know that in their culture, he falls at the bottom of the barrel so to speak. That may cause him to be even more authoritative with Priscilla and with his family because he may be thinking -- so what if I'm gay, I'm still a man and that still gives me control over the women and children, so that wife of mine better listen to me or she'll have hell to pay. I mean didn't he have Priscilla doing video interviews hours after her son was born? What woman can do that -- even in the case of an easy labor, who can look put together and sit up enough to be on camera? But I feel like if she had said she didn't feel well or needed a few more hours/days, he would have put his foot down and said she had to do it.

 

I also don't get negative vibes from Chad Paine. He moved from Oklahoma to Tenn. for Erin in a culture where that just isn't done; sure she was in school but they don't see education or the wife's interests as being all that important in these cultures. They could have easily found her an unaccredited college in Okla. for her to finish her degree or he could have just said -- sorry if you want to get married, I'm not disrupting my life and job, you have to move -- and guaranteed she would have quit college in a hot second just like Alyssa did in order to seal the deal with a hot guy (not saying John Webster gave her an ultimatum -- I think she really didn't care about education and just wanted the fairytale). And now that Erin has been done school for a few months, they could have moved back and they haven't yet. On the Nightline special Chad said something about "some things just aren't important enough to me to get my way -- and the paint color is one of them." A controlling man may let the wife decorate the house because it's women's work but still set the rules on what he will or won't allow; seems like Erin got her way all the way around -- house a mile away from mom's, pink bedroom etc. And I don't know -- just looking at Chad's pics at graduation and after the miscarriage -- he just seems like he is kind and looked genuinely proud at graduation with that huge bouquet.

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Zack really went off the mommy and daddy written script to pick a normal girl for a wife instead of a girl with what the Bateses like to call "high standards."

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When did the Duggars disinvite the non-fundie Kellers, and what reasoning was given?  I remember a rant posted by Daniel but I recall a lot of it being pro-Duggar; either I missed that part or it was another incident entirely.

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Zack really went off the mommy and daddy written script to pick a normal girl for a wife instead of a girl with what the Bateses like to call "high standards."

Except that Zach's nauseating description of Whitney as the "best lil' wife" makes me think Whitney's done a pretty good job fitting in with the Bates' standards.  

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Except that Zach's nauseating description of Whitney as the "best lil' wife" makes me think Whitney's done a pretty good job fitting in with the Bates' standards.  

I often wondered if Gil and Kelly's standards were also Zach's standards. In his wedding photos he is looking at that girl with a look on his face that doesn't seem very "holy," if you know what I mean!

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I get no negative vibes from Chad Paine, though.  Maybe because if he were really into the whole "everything the man wants goes" mindset, I can't help but think he would've said something about Barbie's Dream Bedroom. 

I don't get negative vibes either. Honestly, a lot of men (and heck, women) would not be okay with the bedroom Erin decorated. They would find it too immature, too childish, too girly. Chad, as head of household, could have easily told Erin the room is unacceptable and needs to be changed, but I truly don't think he is bothered by how it looks because it makes Erin genuinely happy. I also think he looked genuinely proud of her at the graduation.

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Zack really went off the mommy and daddy written script to pick a normal girl for a wife instead of a girl with what the Bateses like to call "high standards."

Zach had had his heart broken by Sarah, and he didn't really even understand why. He had bought into their religion where all a man has to do is be Godly, come from a good family, ask the girl's dad for permission to court, show up at the girl's house with cheesecake and flowers and it's a done deal that they'll be married in 3 months. Yet he did all that and inexplicably to him, Sarah ended up saying no, leaving him miserable for 6 months about whatever he did or didn't do wrong. It's really possible that he went after Whitney because he thought "well clearly my parents' way doesn't work and is a recipe for disaster."

 

He may consciously or subconsciously have wanted a girl who was still Godly (and there are many religious conservatives in their area even if they aren't Gothard), but had some experience in relationships or at least talking to guys. No idea if Whitney had relationships before, but as a waitress she had clearly talked to males before -- it would be easier to talk to her and get to know her because she wouldn't think it was awkward to chat with guys. With Whitney if things started going wrong or if she wasn't happy with Zach, she could at least tell him why -- i.e. I don't want to spend this weekend going to your friends' church (or whatever), can't we do something I want  -- instead of what these Gothard families do when they have doubts -- "God has laid it in my heart that we shouldn't get married," as Zach is left thinking "what, why, I thought we were happy." I think Whitney presented a happy medium -- religious enough but "worldly" enough that dates between them weren't stunning silence or an exchange of favorite scripture. Kelly has even said that Zach and Whitney got to know each other as friends as they talked each other through difficult relationship situations before they started dating. I think after a relationship where he said he didn't even know how to talk to girls (and I imagine Sarah was equally awkward with him), he may have been attracted to a girl who knew how to talk to him.

I often wondered if Gil and Kelly's standards were also Zach's standards. In his wedding photos he is looking at that girl with a look on his face that doesn't seem very "holy," if you know what I mean!

Their wedding pics were cute, but in some of them Zach really has the "wow -- we'll be alone in a hotel room in 2 hours" look. And in their honeymoon pictures, he just looked so "relaxed" -- as if I huge weight had been lifted.

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Ahh, poor Priscilla.  Not the brightest thing, totally committed to the cult, almost grateful that David would marry her, and may be tongue-tied as well.

 

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankyloglossia for more information about what it is and how it affects speech.

 

Priscilla is smart enough to understand the rules of her cult, she's also demonstrated that she has been able to be a good housewife for David, and seems to have done a good job of raising their young son.  Problems might appear when she has more children, because the second child is usually more difficult to integrate into the family dynamic than the first.  I worry about her when it becomes time to home-school the kids.  If she had been born to parents that weren't immersed in a cult and had access to public school things might have turned out better for her.  She would have had a better education, and her speech would have been evaluated and possibly improved.  She probably would have never met David, and if she had she might have spotted his passive-aggressive tendencies.  Not to mention the fact that he comes across as a closeted gay man to so many people.  Instead, Pracilla is a very sheltered woman who wasn't very well educated and seems to be desperate to be what her obnoxious (possibly gay) husband wants her to be.  She has no sense of self, she's only trying to live up to a fiction created by her family, cult, and husband.

 

I have less sympathy for David.  He has clearly stated on his blog that he kept pushing off the idea of marrying until his parents pushed him into it.  Then he stated that he felt that Pricilla was someone who he could see marrying and producing children with, all while explaining that she was what he felt best suited to living the 'Godly' life as it's known under the umbrella of Gothardism.  He tried to pretend that he then got to know her and fell in love, but I've seen the videos he's put online and more and more it's apparent he can say nice things about her but he can't stop his expressions.  He really seems to find her annoying and he seems so dismissive of her.

 

This is the man who had her making a video less than 12 hours after their son was born proclaiming how wonderful it was to be a family, and then had a bunch of people into his home right after that for a celebration.  If I recall correctly, P had a long labor and a home delivery without medication.  That alone should have earned her at least a couple of days of peace and quiet.  Sure, have close family show up for a brief time to tell Priss how great she did, how beautiful their son was, maybe drop off a meal or do some quiet cleaning, but don't get the new mom showered and dressed up for a video introducing their new blessing.

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I have a problem with grown people who have a website called "David loves Priscilla". There's also some permutation of that on their license plate. Gross.

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I have a problem with grown people who have a website called "David loves Priscilla". There's also some permutation of that on their license plate. Gross.

 

If he says it loud enough, often enough it will be true. He's trying so very hard to be the man he's supposed to be. It almost makes me feel sorry for him. Almost... cause he does have that nasty streak.

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If he says it loud enough, often enough it will be true. He's trying so very hard to be the man he's supposed to be. It almost makes me feel sorry for him. Almost... cause he does have that nasty streak.

I was just reading his (very, very lengthy) story on his website and saw this:

Having never dated any girls except my mom and sisters, it was super special to go out to a few restaurants during this time and share in many special memories.

You don't date your mom and sisters!

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Having never dated any girls except my mom and sisters, it was super special to go out to a few restaurants during this time and share in many special memories.

 

This explains so very much about him. 

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You're not supposed to give your heart away or treat anyone like a boyfriend, but Brandon walked Kelly Bates down the aisle at Alyssa's wedding? Doesn't that seem a bit contradictory. He's not a husband or fiancé yet, and he's supposedly not a boyfriend -- yet he's in the wedding? I realize that ushers walk people down the aisle and it isn't a big deal, but she's the mother of the bride so chances are people were paying attention by the time she was walking down. And what if Brandon and Michael don't move forward, wouldn't Michael (and the whole family) have given away their heart a bit given that there are pictures of Brandon in Alyssa's wedding? By all means invite him and his family as guests and we know Michael will spend 95% of her time with him at the reception, but maybe don't give him any role in the wedding -- or else how is this different from all the other families where boyfriends became a part of the family for the time they are dating the daughter?

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Not sure if it's allowed to post the link, but I found Susanna's FB page. Her daughter looks about 18 months - 2ish (and is super cute!). So I guess that's the time she left?

 

The Keller girls are the ones I feel the worst for. Say what you want about Smuggar, but I think Anna got the best deal out of her sisters (the ones I know about, anyway).

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I think Rebekah may have done better than Anna.  She and her husband left Gothardom and went regular conservative Baptist.  She wears sleeveless tops and only has two children.  I think she has two girls, but it might be three.  She wears dresses when visiting her parents, but I'm sure she has shorts and jeans at home. 

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Wait a minute on the Duggar's blog Bin is written about as JessaBlessa's "boyfriend." IF they are not allowed to date wouldn't he be considered her courting partner? Why is the word boyfriend not used by these Gothard weirdos? 

 

And I completely agree about David he doesn't seem like the type to really want to be married but was kinda pushed into it to quiet the "rumors."

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I think Rebekah may have done better than Anna.  She and her husband left Gothardom and went regular conservative Baptist.  She wears sleeveless tops and only has two children.  I think she has two girls, but it might be three.  She wears dresses when visiting her parents, but I'm sure she has shorts and jeans at home. 

I agree with you there. Meant out of those who stayed. Should've clarified.

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it was super special to go out to a few restaurants during this time and share in many special memories.

 

 

This is why I wish they would be allowed to be out more and date more. That is what you feel and think with the very first person you date. You do feel special having someone interested in you and asking you out, you feel special getting all ready and going to restaurants. For the Bates and even the Duggars, of course their going to feel even more special they never get to go anywhere without their entire family but to be singled out by a boy or girl who's interested in just them? How is that not going to effect their feelings? They have never been around anyone who wasn't a relative. How do they know their feelings of love isn't just the feelings one has the first time a boy is interested in you, takes you out to restaurants and gives you gifts? 

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New family picture on Kelly's blog. It looks better than the coordinated prairie dress type of picture they had before. I really don't get why Brandon is in it given that he isn't even engaged to Michael yet. Way to not give away your heart -- by including your boyfriend in an official family picture; this pretty much has to work out now.

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this pretty much has to work out now.

Since courting is basically pre-engagement, this seems somewhat normal to me; it's not like it's a guy that she went out on one date with.  Our family does family pictures every 5-6 years or so, and the last one had a cousin's boyfriend in it, who we all thought would end up engaged, but they did not- so now it is just a random guy in the family picture. This year's picture has her fiancee in it, they get married in the fall.

 

Personally, I like the Bates's prairie dresses better.

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After Zach's broken courtship and how upset he was, you think they would have learned these things aren't set in stone though. If this doesn't work, it's a painful and public reminder for Michael. 

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I think Michael and Brandon are pretty much engaged, but they can't get married until he finished school (a surprisingly "normal" decision !), so they are waiting for the "formal" announcement.  Evidently long (over 4 months) engagements are not deemed acceptable for these folks.  Guess there wold be too much "temptation" involved. ;P  

Edited by 3 is enough

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Since courting is basically pre-engagement, this seems somewhat normal to me; it's not like it's a guy that she went out on one date with.  Our family does family pictures every 5-6 years or so, and the last one had a cousin's boyfriend in it, who we all thought would end up engaged, but they did not- so now it is just a random guy in the family picture. This year's picture has her fiancee in it, they get married in the fall.

 

Personally, I like the Bates's prairie dresses better.

I get that it isn't weird for a normal family to include a long term boyfriend or fiancé in a family picture. This is a family that supposedly doesn't believe in dating or giving one's heart away -- they tend to want as little contact as possible and quick courtships/engagements so that if it doesn't work out both parties can walk away without a broken heart. Seems pretty much like a normal boyfriend-girlfriend relationship to include Brandon in a family pic that will be shared on the internet. How is it not "giving away Michael's heart" -- if somehow it doesn't work out -- even they consider themselves engaged, they aren't and Brandon could change his mind -- here is a very permanent reminder of the fact that for a time, Brandon was considered a family member.

Has anyone else noticed that Michael always wears ankle length skirts?  Wonder what's up with that?

I have to imagine that's her choice. Alyssa tends to where knee length skirts and tight tops, so it's not like they can be requiring Michael to wear ankle length skirts and letting the other girls do what they want. Michael strikes me as more "traditional" and religious than her sisters so she may feel that modesty requires ankle length skirts.

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Brandon and Michael started with the "I love you"s before they were even officially courting.  No one is protecting their heart there.  I'm sure it will work out, but I would be curious to see how they handle breaking it off after getting so attached, within a system that's in place to prevent just that.  Obviously I don't want them to break up, but were it to happen, I would be damn curious about how Kelly would present the situation and what she'd have to say about it. 

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New family picture on Kelly's blog. It looks better than the coordinated prairie dress type of picture they had before.

Beautiful photo, I love the color scheme of the clothing. The girls and young women who are choosing to wear tighter clothes and shorter skirts are now looking more like Fox News Channel talking heads (sexy conservatives), but I gotta admit they do look good.

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I think the family picture is quite cute. Michael's boyfriend has been with her for a while now, so I don't see anything wrong with including him in pictures.

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According to the Bates Blog, Zach and Whitney are naming their son Bradley. Bradley Bates? 

Well, it's no worse than David and Priscilla naming their son Paul Waller...

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I think Michael and Brandon are pretty much engaged, but they can't get married until he finished school (a surprisingly "normal" decision !), so they are waiting for the "formal" announcement.  Evidently long (over 4 months) engagements are not deemed acceptable for these folks.  Guess there wold be too much "temptation" involved. ;P  

To the bolded, it's not their decision. Brandon is attending some ministry "school" that Gothard offers. Chad Paine's brother graduated from the program (3 years) last year. One of the stipulations of attendance is that you cannot be married, or even engaged. When I first read the "rules," I thought it also included courting, but apparently not. Or, if your girlfriend's father is on the Board of Directors, rules can be bent a bit. At any rate, Kelly wrote that once Brandon graduates in November, she expects an engagement soon after.

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I remember one episode where Josh and Anna went to see her family.  Anna was bragging that Pricella was older than her, but Anna got married and had children first. Wouldn't a normal person be more concerned that her sister may be married to a gay man, and could get very hurt. All these women care about is who has the most children. They are not even in tune with what's  going on around them. So sad how they were raised.

Anna may not realize he's gay anymore than Priscilla or the rest of the family did upon meeting him. I think Josh may have had some idea that he was "different" from any other guys he knows -- just by how blatantly negative he was, saying something like "I thought he had no life when I met him." But even if Josh does suspect, i wouldn't want to be the son in law going against the ENTIRE family's wish to get a daughter married off asap. The rest of the family is unexposed enough that they probably thing he is a happy religious man and that's what makes him so flamboyant. Frankly the entire family comes from the view of -- OMG a girl is 20-something and not married and her younger sister is married, let's get her hitched to anyone who is interested because God has sent him our way. If it ever comes out that he is gay, Anna and family may be "ok" with it -- he did what he was "supposed" to; he didn't act on any desires and instead married a woman, fathered children, and lived a Godly life; I don't think it matters whether her sister's emotional needs are fulfilled or not as long as there are more kids in the family.

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Somehow I'm thinking they all know, but are firmly in the we can "pray away the gay" camp and are taking a don't ask, don't tell stance. 

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Somehow I'm thinking they all know, but are firmly in the we can "pray away the gay" camp and are taking a don't ask, don't tell stance. 

Because in their world, being gay is a choice. They would never ever accept someone who is gay--they would say that they are giving in to sinful thoughts and other such nonsense.

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What a long missive he writes!  I had no idea his parents were so educated, leaving me to wonder if they buy in to all the God's will, no evolution shit.  In the first pic of his mom, dad, and the first 5 kids, I'd swear his mom had a dress on of normal length and a pair of low heels.

 

Why did the whole family have to sacrifice their bikes for Christmas and do chores and jobs to earn money to go to Mongolia, yet had no trouble making several trips back.  And since they made several trips back, I doubt their severe culture shock and getting use to American foods when they returned permanently.  I guess logic is not their strong point, and they do love to embellish a story.

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Scroll down to about the fifth photo in this article:

 

http://davidlovespriscilla.com/about-us/david-story/

 

I think that one epitomizes David's flare.

 

Oh No!!!! I just don't think that's a natural straight guy pose right there. I know people say you can't tell if someone is gay or not, but I think in many cases you can. I had a friend marry a closeted gay man which lead to divorce. We all sort of thought he might be, but didn't say anything because why would a gay man propose to my female friend? It was really sad in the end. Both are happy now, but a long road to get there. So unfair to both parties! That picture of him does make me smile though. He is just sassy posing all over the place!

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Oh No!!!! I just don't think that's a natural straight guy pose right there. I know people say you can't tell if someone is gay or not, but I think in many cases you can. I had a friend marry a closeted gay man which lead to divorce. We all sort of thought he might be, but didn't say anything because why would a gay man propose to my female friend? It was really sad in the end. Both are happy now, but a long road to get there. So unfair to both parties! That picture of him does make me smile though. He is just sassy posing all over the place!

 

I went to college with a guy who everyone who met him thought he was gay, even though he swore he wasn't. Everyone loved him though and didn't push it with him. He married a girl, who I kid you not, only came to college at the very last minute because she had signed up to JOIN A CONVENT and literally a week or two before joining, she had changed her mind. They've been married for a good 10 years and have a couple of kids. A mutual friend told me he is gay, knows it, acknowledges to some people, but there's too much Catholic guilt from his family to ever let him come out. The girl who wanted to be a nun isn't ever going to question it. They have a marriage of convenience, got the kids they both always really wanted, and do really love each other. I can't imagine what it's going to do to their kids in the long run, but for now they are happy. I could see Priss and TFDW living a very similar life. 

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A friend of mine had a teacher who married a gay man when they were both in their 50s because they were best friends, had never found anyone, and wanted companionship as they aged. It's definitely not that unusual. 

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