S05.E09: A Moorland Holiday (Christmas Special)

[truther]

Agree and agree! Diana was horrified to be dumped in the middle of a party--she was expecting, per the telegram, that Lord S. would be alone. This entire plot contrivance relied on her not being told "Lord Sinderby is entertaining" when she showed up at the door, and on her not being announced so that Rose could save the day by pretending to know her. Neither of which seem to ring true, at all.

 

And there were no consequences to Thomas or Mary from it, which was annoying.

 

Switching gears a bit, the broth story. This was one of the strangest things I've ever seen on television.

I lost track of the number of times I turned to my wife and asked "what the hell is going on?!?"  There were so many bizarre, disjointed scenes.  The Barrow plot was up there -- it was insane how Mary and the others just chalked it up to Barrow being Barrow, that rascally scamp, and left it at that.  And no, unrecognized and uninvited people do not simply show up at the front door to an estate and get escorted into the middle of a private function. 

 

The shooting scenes kept confusing me.  What was the controversy about people taking other peoples' spots, or something?  Why was this important?  Couldn't they have just "accidentally" shot each other and saved us all the trouble?

 

The Bates murder resolution made no sense.  If Bates lied, and his lie got his wife released from prison, and it was shown that he lied, then he and Anna would be in much more trouble than they were before, not less.  Plus, it was all very nice for Molesley and Baxter to find the pub in York where Bates hung out, but how did they establish that he was there on the day in question.  You mean to tell me the owner, a fellow vet, was able to recall the date he met Bates two years later?

 

Self-pitying exiled Russian aristocrats do not engender much sympathy from me.  I'm glad that silly storyline came and went quickly. 

 

Was very happy to see Edith happy.  As a dad I'm a sucker for anything involving fathers being kind to their children.

 

I actually liked the broth story.  Maybe it went on a bit too far, but it was a great counterpoint to the usual stuff on this show.  It was almost its own little send-up of the whole Downton Abbey experience.  Violent definitely thought the final product was awful. 

[stopeslite]

 

What was the controversy about people taking other peoples' spots, or something?

I have zero idea on British aristocrat shooting, but it looked like they each had a stone "stand" that they were behind. I guess that lets them use the stand to balance the rifle, and also keeps them all out of the line of fire. If there are only so many stands and more people, someone can't shoot.

 

I was impressed at how quickly Rose figured everything out, but she could have gone one step further and said Diana was a childhood friend; that would explain why the Crawleys didn't know her either. She could have said that after Diana moved to London, she would visit when she was there seeing Aunt Rosamund. But then again, she did come up with an awful lot on the fly already.

[Llywela]

The shooting scenes kept confusing me.  What was the controversy about people taking other peoples' spots, or something?  Why was this important?  Couldn't they have just "accidentally" shot each other and saved us all the trouble?

 

I have zero idea on British aristocrat shooting, but it looked like they each had a stone "stand" that they were behind. I guess that lets them use the stand to balance the rifle, and also keeps them all out of the line of fire. If there are only so many stands and more people, someone can't shoot.

That's basically it - there are only so many slots, and they operate in pairs for the session, so if you have extra people, they can't all take part.

[Rhetorica]

Interesting interview about this episode from Variety.

One Q & A below, especially, shows they just do not get what the audience likes.  

Bates and Anna seem to have the worst luck, as even Robert remarked this season. Is there any light at the end of the tunnel for them?

It is true. Some people seem to be charmed and everything they do turns good. Some people are very unfortunate. I hope eventually they do get a break. Audiences have loved seeing how genuine their relationship is and how frustrated it is by the things that go wrong for them. People enjoy that.

[ShadowFacts]

 

Yeah, that was weird. I get that it was engineered so that Diana and her son would show up at the most inconvenient time, but why would Lord S.'s servants allow uninvited/unannounced guests to be escorted right into the middle of a party? Why did we see not one cross word uttered to Thomas about it, though Mary clearly recognized it was his doing? And why did it seem to make Lord S. so jovial with everyone after? Like, "my children and grandchildren will never be fully accepted into the Jewish community... But you did me a solid this time so it's OK." Huh? I also don't give high marks to Rose for being so loving to him after seeing he's clearly a hypocritical dirtbag. She's happy to keep the mistress and the illegitimate baby brother a secret from her husband in exchange for his acceptance? OK, then.

Totally hit me the wrong way, too.  That was distasteful.  Some other type of favor, bailing him out of something else would have been acceptable, but this made me uncomfortable.

 

 

Plus, it was all very nice for Molesley and Baxter to find the pub in York where Bates hung out, but how did they establish that he was there on the day in question.  You mean to tell me the owner, a fellow vet, was able to recall the date he met Bates two years later?

This would only make sense to me if the time frame were much tighter -- a few months at most.  Otherwise, people do not remember to the day when they saw someone.  Just not believable.  I did enjoy Molesley's ingenuity and determination and that Baxter was eager to help.  I was a little afraid that he was going to find Mary's birth control when he was going through drawers in the cottage.

 

I agree with others that the hand-holding scene in the nursery most definitely should have included mention of Matthew.  It should have been the five of them growing old together, not four.  I was happy that Edith mentioned Mama and Papa in those who loved Sybil.

 

Michelle D. is a better singer than actor, if that was her voice. 

 

[ZoloftBlob]

but we got not one single mentioning of Matthew's name in series 5?

 

I bet Julian Felllows is still pissed at Dan Stevens.

 

I don't mind Fellowes's rage to a point but when it starts to make things look really awkward and forced then maybe its time to get over it. It was very weird for Mary to lead a prayer in her child's bedroom for Sybil and not mention Matthew, her dead husband. I don't need Matthew's name on a billboard (I do think Edith and Tom mentioned him by name in episode one) but there's a point where it makes Mary look colder than she's supposed to be. If Fellowes wants to be a petty ass to the end of time, ok - but he's only hurting his own show. Stevens seems to be doing fine.

[stopeslite]

Why were they hanging empty stockings in the kids' room, acting like they were doing it in secret? Is it also a thing in GB that the stockings appear like magic and then are filled by Santa?

 

If Bates is proven innocent, then didn't he just perjure himself and will go to jail for that too?

 

Also, when Carson almost cries of happiness it is the best thing ever.

Edited March 2, 2015 by stopeslite

[teddysmom]

I'm a sucker for these Christmas episodes, I love that big tree and the way the rooms are decorated.  And there's always going to be something sweet happen which will counter balance the latest Bates tragedy.  I would suggest somebody get a time machine and that the Bates' put Saul Goodman on retainer.  He'd make more money off their false arrests than he ever did off Walt & Jesse.  Fifteen minutes in front of a judge and they'd get an apology from King George himself. 

 

I think I've figured out why the writing has gone downhill so much.  Julian Fellowes writes each episode, at least I've never noticed anyone else being credited with writing.  I assume this means he has no one to review his ridiculous story lines. Most television productions have a team of writers, so there is input from various staff members even if one writer gets credit for the episode. They "break" an episode around the writers' table, determining which ideas can work, production issues, etc.  If there was someone else writing on DA, I'm sure they'd point out that the Edith/Marigold and Bates annual murder investigation story lines are silly and go on WAY too long.  

 

It's a shame with all the talent in that cast and then half the episodes are taken up with such drivel, that even a daytime soap opera would turn its nose up at. 

[shipperx]

Guess I'm in the minority, but I don't think Isobel did the right thing. Those sons are grown ass men. Who their father marries is none of their damn business. All they have to do is be civil to her when they visit dad.

I don't think she did it for the sons. I think she did it because of why she said. They would be assholes to her. They would be assholes to their father. They would make their lives ugly. Given the legal problems my neighbor's adult asshole stepson has given her after her husband's death and the hell he's made of her life the last two years, I can say that I think Isobel was being practical and possibly downright wise.

The broth story was utterly stupid, though I did get a laugh out loud at Spratt initially wanting her to whip one up on the fly. Hey, Sprat, it's 1924. She can't open a can of Swanson's. A broth is going to take a while since she would need to stew a whole damn chicken!

Edited March 2, 2015 by shipperx

[Llywela]

If Bates is proven innocent, then didn't he just perjure himself and will go to jail for that too?

No, because perjury specifically means lying under oath in court, which Bates has not done.

[stopeslite]

Oh, right. But that means Anna got released on the evidence of a confession that didn't have any legal standing? Or because the witness recanted, which should mean then the police would be in trouble for locking her up on such flimsy evidence? This whole storyline is so messed up.

[WatchrTina]

This episode was by no means perfect (brothgate was absurd) but there was so much to love.  People have already said many of the things I would have commented on so I'll just weigh in to say how beautiful it was.  From Mary's red dress in the opening scene, to the beauties of the house the Sinderbys rented, to the luxury of the first class dining car on the way to Scotland, to the lovely Christmas tree -- it was just a feast for the eyes.  As a commoner (really a middle-class American) I'm sure I ought to feel some jealously that there are people who lived this way (and still live this way only now they have private jets) but I didn't.  That way of life is no more real to me than the goings-on at Hogwarts so I just enjoy a peek into that fantasy world.

 

Speaking of Hogwarts, someone up-thread said one of the locations used in this episode was also used in Hogwarts?  Which one?

 

The location that *I* thought I recognized was the ruins where they lunched.  Is that the same set of ruins that were used for the "Black Kirk" in episode #3 of Outlander?

[Zahdii]

I don't think she did it for the sons. I think she did it because of why she said. They would be assholes to her. They would be assholes to their father. They would make their lives ugly. Given the legal problems my neighbor's adult asshole stepson has given her after her husband's death and the hell he's made of her life the last two years, I can say that I think Isobel was being practical and possibly downright wise.

 

I got the impression that marrying Lord Merton would have been nice, but Isobel wasn't so committed to the idea that she'd put up with his sons if they couldn't play nice.  I also think that when she told Merton that the first time, she didn't expect him to beg his sons to reconsider, she thought that they'd spend more time together before setting a date to see if getting to know one another better would do the trick.  In the end, Isobel realized that spending her remaining years trying to win over a couple of asses while propping up their wimpy father wasn't worth it.

[Llywela]

Oh, right. But that means Anna got released on the evidence of a confession that didn't have any legal standing? Or because the witness recanted, which should mean then the police would be in trouble for locking her up on such flimsy evidence? This whole storyline is so messed up.

I don't think the police would be in trouble. They arrested Anna as part of an ongoing investigation, which appeared to be pointing in her direction, and then released her again when new evidence took that investigation in another direction. I mean, the whole storyline has been shockingly written from start to finish, and I'm no expert on police proceedings, but a lot of police dramas see people arrested along the way during an investigation and then released again once eliminated from the list of suspects. So that much seems fairly standard practice, to my admittedly non-expert eyes. And I'm sure we can all think of real life cases where someone was arrested, refused bail and held in custody until trial, but then acquitted and released - the police tend not to get into trouble over such cases unless a real miscarriage of justice has occurred. It's just how the system works.

[teddysmom]

Speaking of Hogwarts, someone up-thread said one of the locations used in this episode was also used in Hogwarts?  Which one?

 

I'm not sure about Hogwarts exactly, as most of those sets were inside that massive studio where they filmed the movies, but I wondered if it was the exterior shot of the train.  It reminded me of scenes at the beginning of the  movies when they're on their way to Hogwarts. 

[Constantinople]

I was disappointed we didn't get a 1970s women's prison movie story line.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Constantinople

[SunnyBeBe]

This season finale actually cemented what I was already feeling about the show this season.  Sadly, I can barely tolerate a scene with Anna and Bates anymore.  It's not their fault, but loopy writing. I really wish they were not the last two to appear on screen.    Their murder story line is so bizarre that I won't even go there.  Just make it go away.  It's now rather funny.  Regardless of their innocence, their propensity to appear in murder cases would make them undesirable as house staff. Is Bates really that much taller than Anna?  Hmmm......

 

Mary's romantic shenanigans are so dull.  When she was trying to make the gentlemen feel uncomfortable while shooting, she seemed to think that makes her more appealing.  And then the gentlemen seems to agree.  No way.  Please,....let her just give up on finding a suitor.  She's more amusing just being a witch.  

 

Daisy is just about as annoying as Mary.  I wish her well, but wish she had gone to live in London like she threatened to do.  I just don't find her charming at all.  Maybe she would be better suited on the farm or living in London.

 

I must be the only person show wouldn't mind seeing Tom leave.  I wish he would leave Sybbie in England, but he's not that amusing to me.  Recall how useless he was was when his lady friend insulted his family at he dinner table, multiple times.  Why couldn't he set her straight?  He's not that appealing to me.  

 

I do like Carson, Miss Hughes. Edith, Isobel and Violet.   (I would never believe Violet would allow her staff that much rope. Never.)

 

I've just lowered my expectations, but will look forward to the series finale.  It can still be salvaged.

[sark1624]

Did anyone notice that in the Nursery scene Mary didnt want to take Edith hand? It was a good episode en general, but there was some things that i found very boring like the soup plot, the bates saga. Its a a pitty that Tome goes, because its correct that he is the bridge for downstais and upstairs and for the sisters. I bet that the Marigold origin is goint to be the main theme in the first episode of the 6 season.

[shipperx]

I didn't actually think Mary was reluctant to take Edith's hand. I interpreted it as surprise that Edith reached to take Mary's hand. Mary never changes much. She's shocked anyone might try to change that toxic dynamic by laying down their (verbal) swords and saying pax (however temporary it might be)... Mainly because Mary wouldn't have done it and it is therefore a strange and near incomprehensible gesture to her. Mary was more surprised and caught in mental consternation than rejecting.

Edited March 2, 2015 by shipperx

[stopeslite]

I was secretly hoping that Violet really did love Denker's broth because it would turn out that Violet's nanny was also terrible at cooking. Like she has this one big flaw in her tastes where she thinks awful chicken soup is fantastic because that's what she grew up with.

Edited March 2, 2015 by stopeslite

[Eolivet]

It was very weird for Mary to lead a prayer in her child's bedroom for Sybil and not mention Matthew, her dead husband.

 

Putting aside Fellowes' grudge...why? The other two people were Edith and Tom, neither of whom was any relation to or had much of a relationship with Matthew. An argument could be made (one that even Violet would support) that a certain class of people kept their mourning and romantic feelings private. But every last one of them in that room had a relationship with Sybil. Fellowes made it make sense, to me.

 

I mean, Mary isn't Sybil (emotion-wise), so I have no problems believing that Matthew is just some part of her life that she's locked away, never to speak of again. Similar to Violet and Prince Kuragin for 80 years or however long that was. I don't think one can point to Mary not being overly demonstrative with her feelings as being out of character.

 

Fellowes made it so his grudge makes sense, as a good writer does.

[StatMom]

OK, I'm a big sucker. I loved it all, and my eyes welled up more than a couple times. Except for the stupid, friggin' Bates goddamn storyline. Jesus H, enough already! If the segments weren't so short, I would have FF'ed through their bits, for sure. I didn't mind the Bates-adjacent storyline with Molesley and Baxter. I liked that he set forth on the mission with the intent to help, not for praise. I've come around on that guy.

 

And let us not forget what's really important here: BROTH! I like to sprinkle a little Smeckler's powder in mine, to make it extra restorative! BROTH: It's what's good for you.

[Malaprop cocktail]

Too bad Violet didn't insist that Spratt and Denker each have a bowl so it didn't go to waste.  Maybe then they'd stop their annoying antics.

 

 

I was secretly hoping that Violet really did love Denker's broth because it would turn out that Violet's nanny was also terrible at cooking. Like she has this one big flaw in her tastes where she thinks awful chicken soup is fantastic because that's what she grew up with.

 

Either of these resolutions to the ridiculous broth subplot would have been so much better than what we got.

 

I agree Mary was surprised that Edith reached out her hand, but I don't think she should have been. The two bicker, but they also have been seen to put their differences aside for the greater good. Mary also was kind to Edith just before Edith was supposed to get married. I think some of their bickering is meant to be almost playful, like when Mary said that they should all go out to lunch, "even you, Edith," and then in this episode when Edith made some barb and Mary retorted that she just doesn't want to be left behind with Edith. I think their relationship has evolved and softened since season 1 when they were sabotaging each other, and I believe Edith could tell Mary about Marigold for example without too much fear that Mary would blab.

[ShadowFacts]

 

ZoloftBlob, on 02 Mar 2015 - 08:10 AM, said:

    It was very weird for Mary to lead a prayer in her child's bedroom for Sybil and not mention Matthew, her dead husband.

 

Putting aside Fellowes' grudge...why? The other two people were Edith and Tom, neither of whom was any relation to or had much of a relationship with Matthew. An argument could be made (one that even Violet would support) that a certain class of people kept their mourning and romantic feelings private. But every last one of them in that room had a relationship with Sybil. Fellowes made it make sense, to me.

 

I thought that Matthew and Tom had a good relationship.  Regardless, the fact that Tom said the four of us should have grown old together really sounded a wrong note to me because he is the widower of one of the sisters, and Matthew was married to another.  So he should have sprung to mind.  The last time they had a nostalgic nursery moment, I think Matthew was mentioned. 

[ZoloftBlob]

The other two people were Edith and Tom, neither of whom was any relation to or had much of a relationship with Matthew.

 

Tom was Matthew's best man and they were quite warm with each other. Matthew is the one who knew Edith was having an affair with Gregson. In the one mention of Matthew's name this season, it was *Edith and Tom* talking about how they missed him.

 

I thought that Matthew and Tom had a good relationship.  Regardless, the fact that Tom said the four of us should have grown old together really sounded a wrong note to me because he is the widower of one of the sisters, and Matthew was married to another.  So he should have sprung to mind.

 

Its that remark exactly that makes it odd that Matthew wasn't mentioned. I mean really, Matthew died *after* Sybil.... wouldn't that come to mind at all? As I said, I don't need a bill board of grief (I rather liked Henry Talbot and hope he brings some life to the show) but Fellowes is letting his anger with Stevens warp what would be a normal moment into something odd. It makes Mary seem much colder than she ever was and I think she's meant to be likeable.

[kathyj]

Season six finale should have a voice over from one of the kids (now elderly) that wraps up everyone's lives.  I.E.  Grandfather Robert never recovered from the death of his beloved Isis and died a year after she did.

Sounds like ending of "Six Feet Under" finale! Love it.

[Kristen]

Guess I'm in the minority, but I don't think Isobel did the right thing. Those sons are grown ass men. Who their father marries is none of their damn business. All they have to do is be civil to her when they visit dad.

 

I think her decision shows just how reluctant she was to marry again. I think she likes him, and he seems very sweet, smart, and charming, but if she was as in love with him as he is with her (or at all, I never got that sense), she'd have married him anyway. She's already proven that she's kind of a badass in her own right. She's pretty independent (for that era, and under the circumstances), and she can go head to head with the Dowager C and not break a sweat for crying out loud. She can handle a couple of boorish peers. I just don't think she was *that* into him.

 

Sidenote: I positively LOVE the evolution of Isobel's relationship with the Dowager C. So sweet, but still snarky.

[Pop Tart]

 

Mary's romantic shenanigans are so dull.  When she was trying to make the gentlemen feel uncomfortable while shooting, she seemed to think that makes her more appealing.  And then the gentlemen seems to agree.  No way.  Please,....let her just give up on finding a suitor.  She's more amusing just being a witch.

 

Agreed. Mary being nasty to him was not cute or charming or flirtatious. When she heard that Atticus wasn't going to be able to shoot because their neighbor, Johnny (?), was bringing someone to the shooting party so Atticus was giving up his spot, she was put out. But that is what a host does. It's considered the height of good manners to make your guests feel comfortable, no matter how they've put you out. An example in this episode when Rose's mother insisted on having her own room. It was a massive inconvenience but Cora and Mrs. Hughes simply said, no problem, we'll figure it out. That's what you do for guests. Mary should know this. But not only does she show her irritation to Atticus, somewhat understandable, she then proceeds to berate Henry Talbot, who is made to feel extremely uncomfortable.

 

And what was his crime? That he accepted an invitation to go shooting. He had no idea that he'd taken someone else's place. And because Mary chooses to snark at him about it when she did, it's way too late. When he says he'll give up his spot to Atticus, she coldly tells him that he can't because Atticus left his guns back at the castle. In what universe is that anything but beyond rude? And we're supposed to think that Henry is intrigued by her - he did ask about her marital status in the next moment. 

 

There were a lot of impatient sighs from me as I watched last night; but that whole business made me most irritated - well that and any scene where they were discussing Anna's case. 

[Avaleigh]

<<<I must have missed where "Donk" came from --is it one of the kids mispronouncing something or something they made up? >>>

It came out of nowhere and was never explained. Early on Robert asked the room "Why does she call me 'Donk'?" and eveyone shrugged because he was missing the obvious -- he's a donk!

My theory is that the little actress cleverly improvised in a bid to become a fan favorite and Fellowes ran with it. It's much to clever for him to have thought up.

It was explained. Robert asked why Sybbie calls him Donk and Tom replies it's because of Robert and Sybbie playing pin the tail on the donkey together. After that Robert says that he doesn't want George to catch the habit. 

[Zahdii]

I forgot to mention that I hope we hear about Lord Merton, but only through conversations between Isobel and Violet. 

 

We find that lonely Lord Merton has shown an interest in Lady so-and-so, who has several grown children that she raised mostly on her own because her first husband was a notorius drunkard and womanizer and squandered a good portion of his money with his prostitutes and gambling.  However, Lady so-and-so managed to keep her children fed, clothed, and educated by using various tactics to siphon off money and steer her no-good husband away from his worst money sucking hobbies, while keeping them respectable to society.  He thankfully died many years ago while trying to take part in a horse jumping contest when drunk, and mi'Lady has since married off her children and ready to turn her attention to doing something for herself.

 

She meets up with Lord Merton and genteel sparks fly.  They hit it off, marry, and she's more than a match for his odious sons.  By the time he dies, Lord M is so sickened with his own children, and so attached to his step children that he leaves the title to his oldest son, but everything else to the woman who made his last years glorious.

 

The new Lord is so embarressed that he leaves the country and tries his asshole ways somewhere else and gets himself killed.  Good riddance.  The younger son struggles, but is able to reinvent himself enough to marry a woman who is strangely a lot like his step-mother...

[ennui]

Carson and Mrs. Hughes.  ...  It could just as well have been Carson puts her on the deed saying they're partners - he'll put in the money and she'll earn her equity helping him in finding contractors, managing the B&B, and supervising the maid of all work.

Just like a wife.

[SFoster21]

Moseley and Baxter visiting every pub in York on their days off to find an alibi for Bates? Now there's a couple who know how to have fun!

Ok, I cried during Mary's ridic prayer. Thanks, Tom, for that lovely moment and for bringing Edith and Mary into the magic circle where they actually are united in their love for Sybil -- and Tom. Good callback to the scene by Sybil's deathbed where Mary refused Edith's offer of sisterly sympathy.

Violet got her revenge on the Princess. She probably was happier emptying bedpans and bunking with other Russian refugee princesses than she will be now that she's been reunited with her loving husband.

Carson and Hughes. How unexpected. Yawn.

Bates and Bates. How tiresome. Yawn.

Soup.

I'm still in it for the clothes. And "Donk".

This show is consistently repetitive and unconvincing, but there are great moments. I loved that the mysterious Russian Princess turned out to be a crabby, ungrateful old lady who still resents Maggie Smith for a long ago love affair with her spouse (who she clearly can't stand.)

While I can't say for sure, doesn't Maggie Smith's living come from the estate? She has dower rights as the previous Lord's widow. If she remarried, wouldn't she lose her home and all? I don't think she could have taken the Prince in and supported him, but I dunno.

[AZChristian]

The exterior of the castle that was the setting for the grouse hunt scenario was where the first broom flying lessons were done in "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" (the first HP movie).

 

I'm a HP geek and checked it out online.

[StrictTime]

Exactly how hard is it to make BROTH, for heaven's sake. Good lord, I could see an entire subplot being shown about making a yeast bread or perfectly medium rare ribeye, but BROTH? I can't see why Vi's servants are even on our screens. I'd rather see more of the business of running the estate.

[kathyj]

I guess that I am in the minority here as I have enjoyed the entire series, including Season 5.  I like the Bateses love story, but hope the murder stuff is done! I was tickled with Edith this episode - she was 'happy'!  I think it is Mary's turn to get jilted and not have everything go her way.  I detest her hate of Edith.  It was nice that Edith reached out for her hand and Mary responded when they were praying about Sybil.

As others have mentioned, I adore Carson and Mrs. Hughes completely!  

I won't miss Tom or Rose.  I think Robert is great and just is a product of his upbringing which results in some harshness.  At heart, he is a Sweetie! Thomas has grown on me this season and I have hopes for him finding a mate and using his talent of conniving against the enemies of the Crawleys!

I already can't wait until next season.

[Constantinople]

Putting aside Fellowes' grudge...why? The other two people were Edith and Tom, neither of whom was any relation to or had much of a relationship with Matthew.

 

 

Tom was Matthew's best man and they were quite warm with each other. Matthew is the one who knew Edith was having an affair with Gregson. In the one mention of Matthew's name this season, it was *Edith and Tom* talking about how they missed him.

 

Its that remark exactly that makes it odd that Matthew wasn't mentioned. I mean really, Matthew died *after* Sybil.... wouldn't that come to mind at all? As I said, I don't need a bill board of grief (I rather liked Henry Talbot and hope he brings some life to the show) but Fellowes is letting his anger with Stevens warp what would be a normal moment into something odd. It makes Mary seem much colder than she ever was and I think she's meant to be likeable.

Matthew -- and Tom, I think -- also encouraged Edith to accept Gregson's offer to write a column after Lord G told Edith, in essence, that no one gave three shakes of a rat's ankle what Edith thinks.

So I thought excluding Matthew from the impromptu memorial was a little odd as well.

[Rhetorica]

I was secretly hoping that Violet really did love Denker's broth because it would turn out that Violet's nanny was also terrible at cooking. Like she has this one big flaw in her tastes where she thinks awful chicken soup is fantastic because that's what she grew up with.

I, too, thought this!

[Crs97]

I did appreciate the catch in Mary's voice and the look she gave when Henry asked about her husband's shooting ability. She definitely has a stiff-upper-lip mentality.

[Rhetorica]

I think Isobel was right to back out of the marriage. Who wants to spend their final years with stress? She's happy, has family, friends, and freedom. I think that was her best choice.

Did the cane the ladies carried to the grouse hunt have handles that opened to a seat? They were shaped like two squares folded together.

[izabella]

I was surprised that Mary was impressed by Talbott's car.  I would expect she'd have no love for fast convertibles considering how her husband died. 

[wlk68]

I was surprised that Mary was impressed by Talbott's car.  I would expect she'd have no love for fast convertibles considering how her husband died. 

I thought the same thing! 

[proserpina65]

I enjoyed that episode greatly.  No real complaints about it all.  Plus, I adored both the gown Edith wore at the castle and the one she wore on Christmas Eve.  She looked stunning.

[Eolivet]

 The last time they had a nostalgic nursery moment, I think Matthew was mentioned. 

 

Totally different situation: Isobel, Tom and Mary remembering their spouses and the romantic love they shared. If it was just Tom and Mary, it would've made sense. Isn't bringing up Matthew insensitive considering Edith was also there and the father of her child also died? Mary's just damned if she does and damned if she doesn't.

 

I don't mean to be short, but the Sybil memorial was one of my favorite scenes of the whole episode. Sybil was Mary and Edith's sister, and Tom's wife. What was Matthew to Tom and Edith other than a friend? Given the almost familial relationship where Tom has become like Mary and Edith's brother, it was such a lovely remembrance of a young woman who they all loved deeply.

 

It doesn't diminish it just because Matthew wasn't included.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Eolivet

[Constantinople]

I was surprised that Mary was impressed by Talbott's car.  I would expect she'd have no love for fast convertibles considering how her husband died.

 

I thought the same thing!

True, but that's why I think stopeslite pinned the tail on the Donk, as it were

 

It may be because I can't stand Mary, but I thought it wasn't so much because of the car as because he could obviously afford that car, popping him up in a more "suitable" price range for her.

[madam magpie]

I was surprised that Mary was impressed by Talbott's car.  I would expect she'd have no love for fast convertibles considering how her husband died. 

 

This was the only thing about the Mary/Matthew/Sybil/etc. death, feelings/no feelings thing that stood out to me. It seemed obvious by the hesitation and catch in her voice when Talbott (was that his name? I missed it completely) asked about her husband that Mary is still very much lost and sad without Matthew. I found that moment to be incredibly touching, actually. But Mary is not one to go around spilling her stories or being mopey; that's one of the main things she HATES about Edith (and I think it's the main reason she's so disdainful of Edith; Mary sees her sister as weak and pathetic). So the fact that she doesn't talk about Matthew or mention him in prayers and tributes doesn't surprise me at all. She feels it deeply, but buries it deeper. On some level, Tom and Edith know that. They aren't going to push that on Mary, especially during an emotional moment about Sybil. However, if my beloved husband had died in a car crash, fast convertibles wouldn't turn me on at all. So I thought that was bizarre character-wise, but totally realistic car-wise. That car was really cool.

 

I also don't think Mary was put out when Edith reached for her hand. I think she was surprised. They don't do that as a general rule, but they're still family and love each other in there somewhere. Mary was just momentarily taken aback by all of that.

 

I don't think Edith forgot to be mopey this episode either; I think she's finally happy. She has her baby. Her family accepts them both. She's back at home. Yeah, she still misses Gregson probably, but for the most part, her life is OK. (Thank god.)

[ShadowFacts]

 

 

Totally different situation: Isobel, Tom and Mary remembering their spouses and the romantic love they shared. If it was just Tom and Mary, it would've made sense. Isn't bringing up Matthew insensitive considering Edith was also there and the father of her child also died? Mary's just damned if she does and damned if she doesn't.

 

I don't mean to be short, but the Sybil memorial was one of my favorite scenes of the whole episode. Sybil was Mary and Edith's sister, and Tom's wife. What was Matthew to Tom and Edith other than a friend? Given the almost familial relationship where Tom has become like Mary and Edith's brother, it was such a lovely remembrance of a young woman who they all loved deeply.

 

It doesn't diminish it just because Matthew wasn't included.

 

 

It was lovely, and they did all love her, and Tom obviously misses her greatly.  What Mary said isn't what is odd to me, I don't damn her at all.  It was Tom who made the comment about them aging together, and it isn't a huge criticism but I do think it would have been natural to think of Matthew, how they loved him as well.  As to what Matthew was to Tom and Edith other than friend, he was their brother-in-law and the father of one of the children whose nursery they were in. 

 

 

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    Mary's romantic shenanigans are so dull.  When she was trying to make the gentlemen feel uncomfortable while shooting, she seemed to think that makes her more appealing.  And then the gentlemen seems to agree.  No way.  Please,....let her just give up on finding a suitor.  She's more amusing just being a witch.

 

Agreed. Mary being nasty to him was not cute or charming or flirtatious. When she heard that Atticus wasn't going to be able to shoot because their neighbor, Johnny (?), was bringing someone to the shooting party so Atticus was giving up his spot, she was put out. But that is what a host does. It's considered the height of good manners to make your guests feel comfortable, no matter how they've put you out. An example in this episode when Rose's mother insisted on having her own room. It was a massive inconvenience but Cora and Mrs. Hughes simply said, no problem, we'll figure it out. That's what you do for guests. Mary should know this. But not only does she show her irritation to Atticus, somewhat understandable, she then proceeds to berate Henry Talbot, who is made to feel extremely uncomfortable.

 

Mary was being incredibly rude.  She is not the host, she is a guest herself.  None of her beeswax. 

[LittleIggy]

I could probably happily see this "Christmas episode" as a series finale if I could get a half-hour British sit-com of Isobel and Violet meddling in the lives of all and sundry and snarking at each other in the process. What a wonderful dynamic has been developed for those two.

They could go to colonial India and take up residence in a hotel owned by Sonny's grandfather (The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel reference).

[scenicbyway]

Are the Bates' forever doomed to trade places in prison?  This storyline is so dumb, and it's clearly not resolved yet, they just didn't want to go further with it in the Christmas special.  I get that technically Anna couldn't have children and still be a ladies maid, but surely she could become Mary's seamstress or something and still have a family.  There's got to be better storyline for those two.

 

Mr. Carson and Mrs. Hughes are cute, I'd forgotten that they weren't engaged already.  Would it have been proper for them to go in on a house together if they weren't engaged?  It's not like they were inviting Mrs. Pattmore in a as a partner either.

 

One thing I do find interesting is that they show how everyone can inherit on the show.  We know Daisy will end up with a farm, Mrs. Pattmore just inherited a house.  It's not just the heir to Downton that can inherit property and it's interesting that they've shown how women can in different situations.

 

Matthew Goode is a regular on a series in the US so I'm not sure how they'd bring him back as a love interest for Mary.  I felt like their interaction was fairly "blink" and you miss it.  I also can't imagine she'd want to date a guy who drives race cars after Matthew died in a car accident.

 

Edith was finally tolerable!  I'm so glad her dad talked to her and finally gave her some support and acceptance.  I do wonder why Edith isn't in London running the newspaper though.

 

Here's hoping the show fast forwards enough that Tom is already back from America.  I can't imagine he'd enjoy the lifestyle of an immigrant in 1920's America.  Perhaps something will happen at Downton that will require his return?

 

Overall, I hated the first half of the episode.  Loved the new Castle, but Lord Sinderby's grouchiness was insufferable.  I thought it'd be a terrible way to spend Christmas watching such a boring episode.  The second half was much better, I do feel sorry for Isobel but she's right not to want to be miserable.  I was undecided on the whole Russian thing.  It took a lot for Violet to bring the Princess back and give up the Prince again.  I thought the Princess was pretty terrible but I suppose Violet did the right thing in the end.

[Hanahope]

I loved how Mary kept rolling her eyes at seeing how well Edith and Donk were getting along.  Mary was all put out that she wasn't the favored child anymore, or at least for a while.  It was nice seeing Mary and Edith hold hands at the Sybil prayer with Tom.  Maybe they can start being nicer to each other.  I do laugh that Mary is the only one of the upstairs people who is still in the dark about Marigold.  Maybe she too will one day put it together.  That or Edith will have to tell her when Georgie starts talking abut how he's fallen in love and wants to marry Marigold.

 

That castle was great.  Did people (meaning nobility) really "rent out" castles in those days?  I guess maybe so if they needed extra cash for the taxes.

 

So while shooting are the women just supposed to hang out, watch and make conversation for the men-folk?  And that's why they had to have "even numbers?"  Is it intended to "set up" singles so that maybe something might come of it?

 

Loved Thomas' magic power of scheming can be used so well by the Crawleys (almost too well as Mary said), and that they themselves are good at working with the schemes too.  I appreciated that while Thomas himself doesn't like having to wait on Tom Branson, no one else had dare bad-mouth Tom.  Only the DA staff are allowed to bad-mouth Tom.  And funny how Branson has sure gotten used to being waited on too.

 

I just had to cringe at how weak the evidence really was against Anna, yet her lawyer kept saying how strong it was.  The police had no actual evidence Anna was raped (presuming she didn't confess it - as hopefully she took Bates' advice to shut up), all they had was that Anna was Greene's "type" that he liked to rape (which seriously that would go over so well with a jury - how were they going to establish that - put all those women on the stand to testify about their rape?  really?), that she was in London on the day he died and that she looked similar to the person some witness claims he saw on the pavement near Greene.    There's still no evidence anyone actually saw Green being pushed at all, there's no evidence it was murder.  If Anna was so much Greene's "type" then won't there be other women that resemble the person this so-called witness saw?  And the fact that they could use some incident in Anna's childhood past where she defended herself against an attack right then and there, as "evidence" of her character that would go out purposefully to find the man that raped her (or tried/wanted to - if she kept silent), months after the fact, and push him into the street, is just too ludicrous for words.  It certainly makes me appreciate the laws that came into affect limiting the use of this kind of tenuous and completely circumstantial evidence.

 

I get that the evidence from the pub owner about Bates is probably good to show his innocence.  I'm sure Bates doesn't regularly travel up to York, so the one day he did, and met the pub owner, is going to obviously be the day of Greene's death.  Circumstantial evidence can work both ways.  I did like seeing Baxter and Mosely working together.  Oh, who else here thought Mosely was going to find Anna's "secret stash of Mary stuff" and open yet another can of worms?

 

The women's clothes were just so wonderful.  Its pretty amazing how much the fashion changed in those 10 years.

 

I liked both of the potential new suitors for Mary and Edith.  I noticed Talbot didn't seem to have a title (that I recalled hearing) and no one mentioned him being an heir, but I presume he must have some money or family if he can afford those cars, plus know all about shooting and nobility protocol and such not.

[Avaleigh]

Mary was being incredibly rude.  She is not the host, she is a guest herself.  None of her beeswax. 

Henry was glad that Mary informed him of what was going on. If it hadn't been for her, they would have thought of him as a pushy inconvenience the entire time. A kind of Richard Carlisle type who doesn't care who he inconveniences so long as he gets his way. 

 

That being said, Mary did acknowledge that it wasn't any of her business to Henry, she just wanted to let him know. I'd personally want to know if my hosts thought that my presence was a nuisance.