S01.E17: Red Hood

[Chaos Theory]

I have a question: has the red hood ever been washed? Or would that cancel out its magic power of discovering who you are.

I still say Babs and Cat are the best. See Barbara is fun in the middle of a full on alcohol induced flameout. I think she was channeling her own mother. "Looks are all you have Barbara dear, use them." Didn't work on Selina. Speaking of who you really are and all that...Babs mask is alcohol....Selina doesn't need one. She knows who she is. Ivy on the other hand....

Edited February 24, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[SoSueMe]

Anyone else think of "Dog Soldiers" when Reggie called Alfred a war dog?

[Ubiquitous]

They REALLY want us to hate Barbara!

[Milz]

Loved seeing Selina and Barbara until I thought that Barbara was going to rape Catwoman. Originally it just seemed nice of her. Here are a bunch of clothes that I don't wear have fun! They didn't need to take it in such a creepy way.

 

 

I thought that was creepy too. Initially I thought Dumbara would accidentally tell Ivy that Jim and Bullock went after her father and that Bullock shot him. But after this........I hope Dumbara "going to a dark place" isn't her becoming the boss of an under-age sex trafficking ring. That would be grosser than gross.

 

Red Hood Gang: I loved them. When the red hood was introduced and a thug said something like "was I supposed to get one too", I knew it was going to be funny. And then when the short fat guy donned the hood and tried to jump up on the table, couldn't and needed the other thug to help him get on the table, it was funny (to me at least).   And making the red hood a "cursed object" harkens to the old Friday the 13th: The Series show I used to watch in high school.

[Dobian]

Random thought while watching last night's episode:

 

"Mom, I really want the Red Rider cereal spoon for Christmas.  Pleeeease?"

 

"Certainly not.  You'll scoop your eye out!"

[Sakura12]

I doubt they are going to do the prostitute story with Catwoman when the actress is really only 15/16.  

 

I think Barbara will start to listen to the 14 year old telling her, the slutty party girl isn't working out to well for her and she needs to grow up. 

Edited February 24, 2015 by Sakura12

[Spartan Girl]

I think Barbara will start to listen to the 14 year old telling her, the slutty party girl isn't working out to well for her and she needs to grow up.

 

Doubt it, but I loved Selina's burn.

[Sandman]

Ew. I have nightmares about eye-squick at the best of times, and Fish Spooney is NOT helping.

[Milz]

I doubt they are going to do the prostitute story with Catwoman when the actress is really only 15/16.  

 

I think Barbara will start to listen to the 14 year old telling her, the slutty party girl isn't working out to well for her and she needs to grow up. 

 

With the way they're writing Barbara, it wouldn't surprise me if they do. OR if they have Barbara turning tricks herself.

[Ltg.jon]

The first bank robber who wore the Red Hood was really entertaining -- he added a touch of showmanship to the crime in progress that the other guys just didn't have the chops to pull off.  Too bad he was killed off so soon.

When the second Red Hood mangled all the lines and needed help climbing up on the desk, I laughed louder than I ever have at this show.

[Dobian]

Ew. I have nightmares about eye-squick at the best of times, and Fish Spooney is NOT helping.

That was the best eye squish since Beatrix squished Elle's eye in Kill Bill Volume 2.

[joanne3482]

Oswald was told by Maroni, through Victor, to use Butch's business smarts to make the club profitable again. Butch tells Oswald that he put in nine years of sweat equity into the place and it means something to him. But Oswald can't ask Butch, " So- how did you and Fish get booze?"  Or " So, where do you go to get liquor?"  Or "Butch, could you get some supplies for me then?"

 

Butch told Oswald that they got their booze through Maroni but since Maroni hates Oswald he won't sell to him. Hence he had to find alternate sources. 

[Maximum Taco]

Fish Mooney has absolutely no logic in her actions. How is gouging out your own eye a legitimate option when their whole plan was to blind you and leave you in the basement?

 

I guess you robbed them of a little profit they might get from selling the eyes, but they can still gouge out the other one and leave you in the basement blind and helpless like they planned on doing before.

 

Are they just gonna forget about taking the other eye, cause they can't sell it? I wouldn't, in fact as further punishment I'd use the spoon to remove her other eye instead of doing it surgically like I'm sure they would've if they planned on selling them as transplants. Or they could just murder her straight up. She's clearly more trouble then her eyes were worth, and now they are worth nothing.

 

This storyline makes no sense.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Shanna]

When the second Red Hood mangled all the lines and needed help climbing up on the desk, I laughed louder than I ever have at this show.

That was hilarious. I liked both of them in the role.

I love the actor who played Alfred's frenemy.

[Sakura12]

Logic is not this shows forte. Everything happens because reasons. Gordon is a terrible Detective, he mostly sits around growling and wondering what to do and the evidence is magically handed to him by a number of different people. 

[Sandman]

Yeah, not really getting Fish's "This hurts you more than it hurts me" strategy of intimidation by self-harm. Okay, she's fearless. And cray-cray. And no longer has good depth perception?

[opus]

If you mean who started their anti-hero career as the Red Hood, then it's Jason Todd of course :P

 

 

True, but as I stated above , I'm going back to the '50's

[Dobian]

Yeah, not really getting Fish's "This hurts you more than it hurts me" strategy of intimidation by self-harm. Okay, she's fearless. And cray-cray. And no longer has good depth perception?

I'm looking forward to the scene where they have a client who wants her arms.

[Philbert]

 

They REALLY want us to hate Barbara!

 

 

It's not working for me. I just feel sorry for her. Last night's attempt to 'mentor' Cat was just...pathetic. And no, I don't think it was meant to be sexual in nature, as some here suggest. It may just be that seduction is all Barbara knows and that's how it's coming across. Anyway, she's now officially a 'hot mess' of a character. She's not even repulsive enough to hate-just sigh inducing and I'm still not sure the writers haven't been planning this all along.

[Philbert]

 

Logic is not this shows forte. Everything happens because reasons. Gordon is a terrible Detective, he mostly sits around growling and wondering what to do and the evidence is magically handed to him by a number of different people.

 

Oh, he's not that bad. He and Harvey actually did a fairly good job last night. One of the weakest parts of the show has been the slip shod detective work and corner cutting that you're just going to find on television cop shows that are NOT on HBO (yes, that was a "Wire" shout-out.) Most of these shows rely too much on hunches and not enough on actual police work which is usually boring as hell to watch and only has been done right a few times in tv history. At least last night, Jim spotted a legitimate clue and acted appropriately. It's a step in the right direction although the constant shooting of suspects is getting old. Most American detectives never unholster their weapons in a 30 year career. How many have Jim and Harvey gunned down since September?

[Maximum Taco]

I'm looking forward to the scene where they have a client who wants her arms.

 

This could easily devolve into a Monty Python Black Knight scenario.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Dobian]

Most of these shows rely too much on hunches and not enough on actual police work which is usually boring as hell to watch and only has been done right a few times in tv history. At least last night, Jim spotted a legitimate clue and acted appropriately. It's a step in the right direction although the constant shooting of suspects is getting old. Most American detectives never unholster their weapons in a 30 year career. How many have Jim and Harvey gunned down since September?

Yeah if you want a show about police work, Gotham is not for you.  Go watch some old CSI reruns or NYPD Blue or The Wire or something.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Dobian

[opus]

.

I wonder if ratings are going to suffer with Sleepy Hollow being done for the season.

Shouldn't matter too much. Lead-INS are more important.

[mostlylurking]

Fish going full on crazy pants was one of the few legitimately surprising things I have seen on television recently, especially for a show that airs at 8pm.  I might have actually gasped.  Hardcore.  Crazy pants, but hardcore.

 

The character of Penguin seems to be getting a little lost in the shuffle.  This character made the show for me in the beginning, but he hasn't been used very effectively lately.

 

Harry saying something about the city turning to "anarchy"....shout out to SOA??  Probably not but I miss that show.

 

I am a weirdo who has actually never watched Batman.  Yes, we do exist :)  So I constantly ask my boyfriend who everyone is and who they will turn into.  He has to remind me sometimes that not everyone "turns into" someone, lol.

Edited February 24, 2015 by mostlylurking

[Sakura12]

True, but as I stated above , I'm going back to the '50's

 

So you mean the Joker? I guess we need a couple possible Jokers to make the show interesting. 

[Actionmage]

Butch told Oswald that they got their booze through Maroni but since Maroni hates Oswald he won't sell to him. Hence he had to find alternate sources.

 

Yes, but Butch being the guy who already had cops in pocket- for example, should have been asked by Oswald, " What should I do to get around Moroni?" Which Oswald didn't. He didn't use Butch's knowledge of How Things Are In Gotham's Underworld as Don Falcone intended, which made Oswald look stupid, as the man who ran the club under Fish's management is there specifically to help Oswald make money for the club, and by extension, Falcone.  I get that Sal is freezing out Penguin, but that wasn't what my point was about: Oswald was given a resource to boost the club's profitability and expressly did not use it. At all. Even though, that is what Butch's continued existence is supposed to be about.

 

As I also mentioned, there could have been a Butch Shows Oswald What's Up fieldtrip, playing up the obvious distrust from Oswald about Butch in general and as to how "changed" a man Butch really is. The two actors have great chemistry in their scenes. Them in the field? Could have been funny and tense and wonderful. I love that the way Drew Powell plays Butch; I can't tell to what extent he's been "changed" either.  (Hopefully, it's all a scam.)

[Maelstrom]

Dear Show,

 

Don't ever do anything eyeball-related like that ever again. EVER.

 

Sincerely,

The entire audience

 

I thought Alfred's buddy looked and sounded like Evil Fat Liam Neeson

So I'm the only one that kept thinking of him from The Matchmaker? (what can I say, it's a guilty pleasure movie)

 

Agree that Oswald seemed uncharacteristically clueless, but I did love his exasperated, "Well this is inconvenient!" when the 'cops' showed up. Hee.

 

I never doubted it would be Alfred in the hospital after last week's preview. Get better, Alfred! You're too cool to die.

 

Honestly, this show has the worst promo-monkeys I've seen since Stargate SG1 - every single week is horrendously misleading. Luckily, what we end up with is still entertaining. I'm sure with, what, three more episodes that the Gotham monkeys will be able to top the Stargate promo monkeys (who once infamously spoiled the entire ending of the whole damn episode with one fifteen second promo. Now that's talent)

Edited February 24, 2015 by Maelstrom

[Philbert]

 

Yeah if you want a show about police work, Gotham is not for you.  Go watch some old CSI reruns or NYPD Blue or The Wire or something.

 

 

Umm, yeah. CSI and NYPD Blue are exactly the kind of shows I was talking about. Utter fantasy with regard to police work. Gotham isn't perfect nor do I expect a show about comic book characters to be so.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Philbert

[Lazlo]

Is it just me or is Barbara kind of dumb?

 

Obviously it has been clear for ages that she is a mess but her epic failure in mentoring Selina seemed to suggest she doesn't have much in the way of brains either. If she is trying to sell herself as vamp who can manipulate men with ease she probably shouldn't try it on the tween who advised her what to wear only one episode ago and who knows firsthand Barbara has screwed up one relationship.

[Shanna]

Most American detectives never unholster their weapons in a 30 year career. How many have Jim and Harvey gunned down since September?

Most detectives don't live in gotham!

Yes, but Butch being the guy who already had cops in pocket- for example, should have been asked by Oswald, " What should I do to get around Moroni?" Which Oswald didn't. He didn't use Butch's knowledge of How Things Are In Gotham's Underworld as Don Falcone intended, which made Oswald look stupid, as the man who ran the club under Fish's management is there specifically to help Oswald make money for the club, and by extension, Falcone. I get that Sal is freezing out Penguin, but that wasn't what my point was about: Oswald was given a resource to boost the club's profitability and expressly did not use it. At all. Even though, that is what Butch's continued existence is supposed to be about.

As I also mentioned, there could have been a Butch Shows Oswald What's Up fieldtrip, playing up the obvious distrust from Oswald about Butch in general and as to how "changed" a man Butch really is. The two actors have great chemistry in their scenes. Them in the field? Could have been funny and tense and wonderful. I love that the way Drew Powell plays Butch; I can't tell to what extent he's been "changed" either. (Hopefully, it's all a scam.)

Oswald is too leery of butch to use him properly. I think that's all this is. The minute he let's his guard down, I bet butch will turn on him.

[Raja]

Anyone else think of "Dog Soldiers" when Reggie called Alfred a war dog?

I am older I thought of the Fredrick Forsyth book and Christopher Walken movie The Dogs of War. Not to mention Shakespeare's Julius Caesar:

 

Fish Mooney has absolutely no logic in her actions. How is gouging out your own eye a legitimate option when their whole plan was to blind you and leave you in the basement?

 

I guess you robbed them of a little profit they might get from selling the eyes, but they can still gouge out the other one and leave you in the basement blind and helpless like they planned on doing before.

 

Are they just gonna forget about taking the other eye, cause they can't sell it? I wouldn't, in fact as further punishment I'd use the spoon to remove her other eye instead of doing it surgically like I'm sure they would've if they planned on selling them as transplants. Or they could just murder her straight up. She's clearly more trouble then her eyes were worth, and now they are worth nothing.

 

This storyline makes no sense.

Think of it like she was a suicide bomber. Nu Battlestar Gallatica did a similar thing. She might not win, but neither will the other guy. Also losing an eye gives her more leadership credentials when she is thrown back into the Fish Tank dungeon, She is not just ordering the preemptive killings of other victims but she has shared in the risk.

[SoSueMe]

I am older I thought of the Fredrick Forsyth book and Christopher Walken movie The Dogs of War. Not to mention Shakespeare's Julius Caesar:

 

 

Yeah, you are so right. I just felt like they were slipping in a little 'in' joke since Sean Pertwee (Alfred) was in Dog Soldiers :)

[MisterGlass]

Ick, that gif was in the recap.

 

I don't think Oswald's behavior was out of character.  He has blundered as much as he's won, and he is at his best in the short game.  He's fairly good at manipulating things to his own advantage, and in ordering around small groups, but running this nightclub is a bigger operation.  He probably has more autonomy now than he has ever had, and still expects to solve his problems through a show of false humility or a bloody attack.  And violence is a primary tool for him.  It's kept him alive, gotten him money, and made him relatively secure.  Oswald can beg, and order, but asking for help would be a new thing for him.

 

Barbara was certainly off-kilter, and gave off a villainous vibe.  I could see her playing Fagan to Cat's Dodger.  She could take Selina to art openings and introduce her to society, letting her pick pockets and pointing her toward the expensive jewelry.  Ivy on the other hand would not blend that well into a crowd.

[Danielg342]

Think of it like she was a suicide bomber. Nu Battlestar Gallatica did a similar thing. She might not win, but neither will the other guy. Also losing an eye gives her more leadership credentials when she is thrown back into the Fish Tank dungeon, She is not just ordering the preemptive killings of other victims but she has shared in the risk.

What it boils down to is the problem with the whole “Dollmaker” prison plot. I agree that Fish's actions give her a lot more credibility with her new prison mates, but I don't think it should have gotten to that point to begin with. As far as I know, it's never been established that the prisoners were selected for a reason, so they're all interchangeable- meaning if anyone did anything to challenge the Dollmaker, they'd likely be lying in a pool of their own blood and nothing more.

Now, I grant that Fish still has value in that she has other working body parts...but, I wonder, given all the headaches she's caused, why is the Dollmaker keeping her alive?

[Maximum Taco]

I am older I thought of the Fredrick Forsyth book and Christopher Walken movie The Dogs of War. Not to mention Shakespeare's Julius Caesar:

 

Think of it like she was a suicide bomber. Nu Battlestar Gallatica did a similar thing. She might not win, but neither will the other guy. Also losing an eye gives her more leadership credentials when she is thrown back into the Fish Tank dungeon, She is not just ordering the preemptive killings of other victims but she has shared in the risk.

 

That's fair, if there was a reason not to gouge her other eye out and/or kill her.

 

They were perfectly happy to throw her down there eyeless, and see how long she lasted. How does gouging her own eye out change that?

 

As far as I can see it doesn't. She's more trouble than she's worth. Why would they even put her back in the basement with her single eye? Why wouldn't they gouge her other eye out and chop off her hands (or something else equally unpleasant) and throw her back there. Or make it even cleaner and just kill her and throw her corpse back down there to teach everyone down there what happens when you try to negotiate.

 

Fish has absolutely no leverage here.

 

Suicide bombers are completely different, they are willing to sacrifice themselves to achieve their goal. Their goal is to kill people and strapping a bomb to themselves and blowing those people up achieves that goal. How does gouging her own eye out contribute to Fish's goal? It shouldn't, logically, they should just do what they were going to do in  the first place and gouge her other eye out.

Edited February 25, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Snookums]

But man is going to have a kick ass eye patch.

 

 

I hope she puts a tiny fish tank with a wee guppy in the socket!

 

Wow, Fish Mooney does NOT play around.. I think her real secret weapon is turning what people think is her weakness--her sexiness, how she's so tiny--into spitting hellfire at a moment's notice. Then, because she's so good at reeling it right back in, they get intrigued instead of just shooting her. She took Barbara's type of advice to heart and uses it to her advantage.

And speaking of! When Babs was putting away the booze and doing Drunk Makeovers on Ivy and Selena I yelled "I FORGIVE THIS SHOW EVERYTHING IF SHE'S MENTORING SUPERVILLIANESSES" to my husband. Of course Selena reflexively shot her down (and Ivy, ignored once again, tuned in) but Babs is offering them what no one else can--chances to be women, to be able to use their femininity in a "strong" way.

 

I can see why Selena was disgusted--she and Ivy dress the way they do for very good, sound reasons. Not the least of which is constant threat of rape. You wear shapeless, disguising layers and tight, hard to get off pants and lace up boots for that reason. The idea of being able to revel in your femaleness and not be instantly assaulted? Would be...well, let's say it, intoxicating.

Liked the Red Hood and the Joker fakeout with Floyd: my husband gleefully pointed out that he has the same hair as the Joker on the animated series, even. And the whole "gang of robbers who are actually pretty stupid and steal all their moves from movies" was great.  I loved the whole "Hoods? Was I supposed to have a hood?" thing, and the anonymous bank patron's laugh at Floyd's joke. Brilliant opening. And how the rest of the gang was convinced that the hood has Magik powers when it turns out they were just incredibly lucky to come up against an vain bank guard with myopia issues.

Does anybody think that Bank Girl in Glasses may be a future Harley Quinn? She was pretty enamored of the whole deal.

 

I loved Harvey grabbing the Coke but winced at him eating days old unrefrigerated pizza--blech! That guy's got a cast iron gut.

Edited February 25, 2015 by Snookums

[ReclinerTurnip]

This ep made me think of the Margaret Atwood poem:

You fit into me

like a hook into an eye

a fish hook

an open eye

[Ubiquitous]

Is it just me or is Barbara kind of dumb?

 

Obviously it has been clear for ages that she is a mess but her epic failure in mentoring Selina seemed to suggest she doesn't have much in the way of brains either. If she is trying to sell herself as vamp who can manipulate men with ease she probably shouldn't try it on the tween who advised her what to wear only one episode ago and who knows firsthand Barbara has screwed up one relationship.

Why was she giving them those party dresses, anyway? They're totally impractical for those urchins.

[patchwork]

It would be interesting use of Barbera if she's the one to help Selina and Ivy along on their path. Her parents are rich enough to sponsor two orphans. She can get Ivy into a school so one day that doctorate in botany is possible with a street rat origin story, Selina she takes to rich people gatherings casually dropping price tags and opening up whole new stealing options for the girl.   

 

All done with the best of intention but crucial to kick off two supervillians' careers. 

[Maelstrom]

Why was she giving them those party dresses, anyway? They're totally impractical for those urchins.

But as soon as they showed that sparkly green top, we all knew which one Ivy would go for!

[Lazlo]

It would be interesting use of Barbera if she's the one to help Selina and Ivy along on their path. Her parents are rich enough to sponsor two orphans. She can get Ivy into a school so one day that doctorate in botany is possible with a street rat origin story, Selina she takes to rich people gatherings casually dropping price tags and opening up whole new stealing options for the girl.   

 

All done with the best of intention but crucial to kick off two supervillians' careers. 

 

This seems more likely to me than Barbara as a mentor figure.

 

As I said earlier Barbara just doesn't come across as smart enough or strong willed enough to really impress Selina in a serious way.

[blackwing]

Didn't care for this episode at all.  It was really obvious that Alfred's down-on-his-luck friend that he hasn't seen in 20 years was going to turn out to be trouble.  How could Alfred even think to invite this man into Bruce's home without consulting him first?  And seriously, where are all of the other adults in the house?  A house like that would at least have a cook and a few cleaning staff.

 

Fish pulling out her own eye?  Makes no sense.  Dulmacher (who I presume is the Dollmaker, probably a different actor than the one on Arrow) wants to use her eyes for his creations?  She still has one good one.  Why wouldn't they just take the other one?  Now we are going to have to see Jada with a patch for the remainder of the series.

 

I agree that the first Red Hood was entertaining.  After that the whole storyline went downhill.

[Chicago Redshirt]

So the entire board of WE is corrupt and willing to sanction murder?  

Not exactly the entire board. The entire board was present for Bruce's meeting, and every seat at that big-ass table was filled. 

 

The people present to hear from Reggie were more like 6-8, or I'd estimate 1/3rd-2/5ths.

[Tech Noir]

Just once I'd like to hear the 'your good looks are a weapon, learn to use them to your advantage, my dear' speech delivered by a man to another man.  On any show. Even better if it comes with that weird sexy edge they gave that whole Barbara/Selina scene. Imagine Rick saying that to Daryl on Walking Dead. Or Walter White to Jesse Pinkman. Roger Sterling to Don Draper?  COME ON WRITERS, WORK WITH ME HERE.

[Lazlo]

Just once I'd like to hear the 'your good looks are a weapon, learn to use them to your advantage, my dear' speech delivered by a man to another man.  On any show. Even better if it comes with that weird sexy edge they gave that whole Barbara/Selina scene. Imagine Rick saying that to Daryl on Walking Dead. Or Walter White to Jesse Pinkman. Roger Sterling to Don Draper?  COME ON WRITERS, WORK WITH ME HERE.

 

While I still can't see male characters doing it I do think the viewers were intended to see Barbara as pathetic here, and side with Selina's snark.

[Danielg342]

Just once I'd like to hear the 'your good looks are a weapon, learn to use them to your advantage, my dear' speech delivered by a man to another man. On any show. Even better if it comes with that weird sexy edge they gave that whole Barbara/Selina scene. Imagine Rick saying that to Daryl on Walking Dead. Or Walter White to Jesse Pinkman. Roger Sterling to Don Draper? COME ON WRITERS, WORK WITH ME HERE.

Men are more likely to fall for the "nefarious babe" than a woman would...but it is still a nice idea.

[MisterGlass]

If there is a show on air that could include that speech, it would be Hannibal.

 

Snookums, lol at the guppy eyepatch.  I was picturing something gold and diamond encrusted. 

 

The only outcome I can picture for Fish is becoming an experiment, and eventual supervillain.  Unless she ends up some kind of supplier to the Dollmaker.  Actually rescuing those people in the basement would feel like a bridge too far.  When it was revealed they were in a quasi-medical building I started to wonder if this was a wing of Arkham.

 

I'm more glad than ever that Selina didn't get picked up by the evil duo back when.

 

Edited for spelling.

Edited February 26, 2015 by MisterGlass

[Danielg342]

The only outcome I can picture for Fish is becoming an experiment, and eventual supervillain.

The Batman universe does have a villain with an eyepatch:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deathstroke

Is that Fish's fate?

[Snookums]

And seriously, where are all of the other adults in the house?  A house like that would at least have a cook and a few cleaning staff.

 

 

A house like that should have the equivalent of a museum staff just to keep it dusted. Of all the things I've seen on this wild and crazy show, the notion that one man could run a house like that with absolutely no support is the most unbelievable.

[truthaboutluv]

This has definitely been bugging me since the first episode of this show, everytime they show Alfred and Bruce at home. That said, I started thinking about it and I realized that I don't really remember seeing anyone but Alfred at Bruce's mansion in any of the movies either. You see Alfred serving Bruce, Alfred handling his clothes, etc. and there's no one else around.