S01.E12: She's A Murderer

[Fable]

I'm with those who felt that Nate seemed like he saw his arrest coming, and he acted far too calm about it.  I also agree that it is strange that Annilise would try to frame him, when he was her alibi, because if she was supposedly with him that night, that would incriminate her too.  I have no idea where they are going to go with this, but I smell a big old twist coming.

[Seelouis]

My favorite bit of ridiculousness -- someone turns to Laurel in court and asks "how did you find him????"  Meaning how did they possibly manage to track down the informant?  And she says "we have our secrets."  Ummmmm.  I am pretty sure you found him by looking on his Facebook page!  That's some crack detective work that nobody else could have possibly thought of. 

Edited February 13, 2015 by Seelouis

[Artsda]

I'm with those who felt that Nate seemed like he saw his arrest coming, and he acted far too calm about it.  I also agree that it is strange that Annilise would try to frame him, when he was her alibi, because if she was supposedly with him that night, that would incriminate her too.  I have no idea where they are going to go with this, but I smell a big old twist coming.

He did seem really calm like he was expecting it. I was expecting him to smile when he turned around and showed his face.

[TobinAlbers]

I really can't blame Hannah for kicking it into stalking Annalise and her students and hounding them to hell after viewing the photos of Sam's cut up and burned body. We know the circumstances of his death were a bit more complicated but from looking at those pictures at the police station as far as she knows her brother was brutally murdered and butchered. I'd be out for blood too. And her handling of Bonnie in court was superb. It showed just how out of her league Bonnie was and how ruthless and smart Hannah could be. In a Lifetime TV movie, Hannah would be the hero!

 

And Hannah was right: Annalise keeps bringing up the 'dirty mistress' issue so she must have an issue with it. She's also doing it to feed into Hannah's view of her and distract her from piecing it all together but I don't doubt Annalise believes a little of it herself. Still that was LOW blow to twist Hannah's concern for her brother into an incest issue. Annalise is playing foul and dirty.

 

The Keating 4 are looking so guilty it's only a matter of time before they're caught. Michaela was pretty stone cold when realizing they were saved by Nate's arrest. Her panic attack hyperventilating was gone and she was smacking down anyone's horrified reactions to Nate's arrest 'She's doing what she promised. She's taking care of us.'

 

I don't care how many tears Annalise sobs, she agreed to set up Nate knowing that his wife is dying and has taken a turn for the worse. I can totally see his wife dying from the shock or if she lasts, fading while he's awaiting trial. My sympathy is with her unless she's revealed to have kicked puppies and eaten kittens.

Edited February 13, 2015 by TobinAlbers

[Neurochick]

I really can't blame Hannah for kicking it into stalking Annalise and her students and hounding them to hell after viewing the photos of Sam's cut up and burned body. We know the circumstances of his death were a bit more complicated but from looking at those pictures at the police station as far as she knows her brother was brutally murdered and butchered. I'd be out for blood too. And her handling of Bonnie in court was superb. It showed just how out of her league Bonnie was and how ruthless and smart Hannah could be. In a Lifetime TV movie, Hannah would be the hero!

 

 

I think Hannah would be the psycho stalker in a Lifetime movie.  I mean she made a huge jump in logic, screaming "ARREST HER" and let's not, "she came from a violent home."  If I were the female detective, I would wonder if Hannah was a bit bigoted, but perhaps she preferred Sam's first wife.  

 

I don't care how many tears Annalise sobs, she agreed to set up Nate knowing that his wife is dying and has taken a turn for the worse. I can totally see his wife dying from the shock or if she lasts, fading while he's awaiting trial. My sympathy is with her unless she's revealed to have kicked puppies and eaten kittens.

 

 

This is interesting, because I realized we've never seen Nate's wife, or Sam's first wife either.  I can't have sympathy for a TV character that I haven't even seen though.  Though I do wonder where Sam's first wife is.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Neurochick

[Chicago Redshirt]

I don't think it's such a huge leap in logic to suspect Anni.

 

Most of the time when someone's murdered, it's the spouse or someone close to them.

 

Anni and Sam had a volatile relationship.

 

Sam had an affair that Anni knew about.

 

That affair resulted in a child.

 

Anni and Sam don't have children (and it's been implied that they tried).

 

Anni has been acting pretty nonchalant about both Sam's being the suspect in a murder and Sam's being missing.

 

Anni has been having an affair.

 

Oh, and Anni is a huge liar. 

 

Based on the facts known to Hannah, it's hard to imagine who would be a better suspect.

[ribboninthesky1]

The thing with Nate feels like a red herring to me.  Before the ring reveal, Annalise was shown making a phone call to someone, saying something like, "I need you now."  I think that call was to Nate.  He's been using a burner phone all this time, so I assume the police couldn't track that they've been talking.  And it lines up with why he didn't look remotely surprised to find the police at his door, or particularly concerned when he's walked into the station.  It's certainly possible he was blindsided, but the actor didn't give me any of that.  I suspect Annalise might take his case and get him off, especially if the only thing they have is a fingerprint from a ring found in the woods. 

 

Nevertheless, my first reaction was, "Damn, Nate arrested means no more shirtless scenes or hot sexy times! Whhhhhyyyyyyy, show?"

 

I thought that the finger print Frank lifted was going to turn out to be Hannah's and then they'd somehow try to pin it on the "jealous" sister.  The upcoming episodes look like they are packed full.

 

I thought the same, then I realized that wouldn't work.  I get the feeling that Hannah doesn't live in the same area, so it would be easy to rule her out just based on cell phone tower pings the night of the murder or someone verifying she was nowhere near the house that night.

 

Mob guy was funny when he basically said to Annalise, "so you're a single woman now, call me.  Chocolate and Italian wine go together."  

 

I almost fell off my sofa.  I thought, "Bruh - two seconds ago you wanted to drop her as your attorney.  Now, you trying to get your mack on? Word?" Annalise's bemused/amused mixed expression cracked me up.

 

I wish Laurel would just leave Frank alone.  The push and pull bullshit is old.   I understand that she's freaking out, but why not talk to Annalise?  Approaching him in tears, yet declaring, "Don't comfort me!" Well, stay away from him, then.  She annoys me as much as Rebecca does.   

[cooksdelight]

Annalise was shown making a phone call to someone, saying something like, "I need you now."

I thought she was calling Frank, her personal henchman.

[ribboninthesky1]

That's possible.  I thought it was left purposely ambiguous for the reveal.  We already know that Frank is in on the cover-up, so why not just say his name? Guess we'll find out!

[jjj]

Yes, I was sure it was Frank, and the reveal was when he came for the ring. 

 

The former tenant Rudy is surely going to figure in this -- and in Lila's murder, I suspect.  I hope we get to see how the marks got onto the wall. 

Edited February 14, 2015 by jjj

[KaveDweller]

That's possible.  I thought it was left purposely ambiguous for the reveal.  We already know that Frank is in on the cover-up, so why not just say his name?

 

To drag out the reveal and make us think she was turning on the students? That was my assumption anyway.

[Dowel Jones]

The problem with using a henchman/woman to help you cover up a murder is that, if ever they get caught up in some other felonious endeavor of any sort, they whip out the "I have information you might want to hear" card and things go downhill in a hot second.  It may be a moot point because Michaela is on the edge of total collapse anyway.

 

That was some fine detective work in the office, boys.  You find the scales on the floor, and Bonnie immediately picks up the large-metal-object-that-suspiciously- resembles-the-murder-weapon-from-the-forensic-work-done-back-at-the-lab and walks right by everyone to reunite said scales with Blind Justice.  Don't everybody jump to a conclusion at once, now.  And wouldn't scrubbing the wood floor in one spot leave a residue or a pattern that was not apparent on the rest of the floor?

 

As for the phone call, I first thought it was to Nate, in order to get him out of his house.  The scene with Frank would then have taken place earlier, and he was already primed to is task.

 

I thought fingerprint evidence still required a certain number of "points" that correspond to a suspect's prints to be valid.  Would the edge of a ring even show that many points?

[Miles]

Bonnie is good. It did not take much for her to figure out that it was the students and not Annalise.

I don't think she's very good. She is around them all the time and with all that suspicious behaviour it would take a total ditz not to figure it out.

The thing is, she didn't think the thing through at all. What would keep the students from fingering Annalise for the murder? She had motive, they didn't. She was in the house with the body, she cleaned up the blood. They could easily spin it in a way where she killed Sam and roped them into getting rid of the body. She is known to be an ice cold teacher who has an iron grip on her students. They could argue diminished capacity for helping her get rid of the body, because she was controlling them, kind of like a cult leader.

They might get off with probation or a very lite prison sentence, since the only thing the prosecution could make stick would be destruction of evidence and abstructing a police investigation.

Annalise is at much, much higher risk than her students here.

Aside from how cold framing Nate was, I found the lifted and placed fingerprint interesting. With the ability to trick smartphone fingerprint sensors via a lifted print, I've wondered when fingerprints may become unreliable as admissible evidence due to being planted at crime scenes in a similar way. If touch DNA (a la CSI) is real/advancing, maybe the two used in tandem would resolve the issue.

You could always plant fingerprints, it's not that hard. You could also always plant DNA, which is even easier. But then eyewitness testimony is completely unreliable. So what are we going to do?

Ofcourse that means the whole "rather have a 100 guilty men go free than 1 innocent man go to prison" is a total joke, but that shouldn't come as much of a surprise to anybody anymore.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Miles

[helenamonster]

Well damn. Damn. I continue to underestimate how cold Annalise is. For a second I thought she was going to frame Hannah. Damn.

 

I loved the scene between Annalise and Connor.

 

The Rudy thing continues to intrigue. Is he related to Lila's murder or a separate issue for next season?

 

Yes, Laurel, stay away from Frank. Be strong, girl!

 

Bonnie is awesome.

 

The last time I saw the client of the week, he was taking hostages on Charmed.

 

Cicely Tyson is Annalise's mother? Oh HELL yes.

[WalrusGirl]

I think the show flashbacked to Analise using a lot of Clorox to get rid of any traces of evidence.

Yeah, but my degree in watching CSI has taught me (presumably correctly?) that bleach doesn't hide blood from luminol. So a) either she used something that does (I couldn't tell if it was maybe comet or some other cleaner?), b) they luminoled a few feet from the right spot, or c) there was an astounding lack of basic research in the writing room, since if Annalise knew how to destroy the students' DNA by burning the body she'd know that bleach doesn't get rid of blood, forensically. I think they can't generally get a DNA match, but it doesn't hide that blood was there.

(Ok, google says that while chlorine bleach doesn't hide blood from luminol, oxygen bleach/adding hydrogen peroxide does. So I guess she did that, if they were testing the right spot.)

I may be the only one, but I wanted to slap Hannah. MGH is a great actress, but her repeating "Arrest her. Arrest her." over and over. Oh god, shutup you crazy person." Even the cops were like looking at her like she was insane. I was rooting for Annalise to get one up on her, simply for the screeching.

Nope, it's not just you. Even though she's sort of right, she's way too irritating to root for. Stop screeching!

And wouldn't scrubbing the wood floor in one spot leave a residue or a pattern that was not apparent on the rest of the floor?

Yeah, I would think, unless you mucked up the surrounding floor equally, re-stained the floor, or replaced some of the boards. Apparently she has some fantastically hard hardwood floors to withstand the scrubbing we saw and come out unscathed. (In reality, you probably wouldn't have to scrub the oxygenated bleach so much as just make sure it saturated all seams, etc, and rub it in normally, but I have no idea what that might do to the finish.)

You could always plant fingerprints, it's not that hard. You could also always plant DNA, which is even easier. But then eyewitness testimony is completely unreliable. So what are we going to do?

True. It just seems that the possibility and exact technique are much more widely publicized (and with many more online how-tos) since the adoption of widespread fingerprint sensors. It's not like most crime shows tend to deal in a planted print regularly the way they do with luminol/regular bleach. Just seems that planting fingerprints is becoming a lot more accessible to regular criminal types, not just the pros.

[kikaha]

What would keep the students from fingering Annalise for the murder? She had motive, they didn't. She was in the house with the body, she cleaned up the blood. They could easily spin it in a way where she killed Sam and roped them into getting rid of the body. She is known to be an ice cold teacher who has an iron grip on her students. They could argue diminished capacity for helping her get rid of the body, because she was controlling them, kind of like a cult leader.

They might get off with probation or a very lite prison sentence, since the only thing the prosecution could make stick would be destruction of evidence and abstructing a police investigation.

 

That would pretty well spell the end of the dazzling future careers they all have planned for themselves, legal or otherwise.  They still hope to get away scot-free.  

 

It also requires that they go up against and defeat the master strategist manipulator/lawyer/puppeteer on the planet.  Odds that they win seem somewhere between slim and nothing. 

 

Plus I imagine Annalise has a plan for that contingency as well. 

[cooksdelight]

(Ok, google says that while chlorine bleach doesn't hide blood from luminol, oxygen bleach/adding hydrogen peroxide does. So I guess she did that, if they were testing the right spot.)

Please don't do anything to get in trouble and have your computer searched, because they'll find that search about removing blood and luminol. :) I agree, her hardwood floors must really be something not to suck up even a tiny bit of blood.

[darkestboy]

Wonderful episode. I did not see Annalise getting Frank to incriminate Nate though. That was a special kind of cold. I hope she has a plan to make sure the boyfriend doesn't end up in jail though.

Hannah is gonna get one of those kids to crack. If Bonnie could figure out that they killed Sam, Hannah certainly will pretty soon.

It seems to be a constant contest between who'll crack with Michaela and Connor. This week it was Connor and I really liked that scene with him and Annalise in the latter's office.

Knew that Rebecca knew more about the Rudy thing than she previously told Wes. Intriuged by that storyline too.

Laurel seemed a little more human in this episode too.

Liking Asher and Frank's scenes even though the former needs a bit more to do though. Case of the week was a bit dull though.

Missed Oliver and am looking forward to seeing Annalise's mother as well, 9/10

[Miles]

That would pretty well spell the end of the dazzling future careers they all have planned for themselves, legal or otherwise.  They still hope to get away scot-free.

It also requires that they go up against and defeat the master strategist manipulator/lawyer/puppeteer on the planet. Odds that they win seem somewhere between slim and nothing.

Plus I imagine Annalise has a plan for that contingency as well.

That wasn't my point. Ofcourse it is also in the students best interest to keep quiet. But Bonnie told Annalise to rat them out to the police. I merely posited what the students could easily do in that situation, to show that Bonnie isn't very smart afterall.

Sure Annalise could come out ahead, but I doubt it. If the case against her ever got to trail, and it would since there is enough evidence, no jury is going to like her and they are going to believe the students.

And I think Annalise sees it the exact same way as I do. I don't buy for a second that she would sacrifice her boyfriend just because she had given her word.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Miles

[wanderingstar]

It seems to be a constant contest between who'll crack with Michaela and Connor. This week it was Connor and I really liked that scene with him and Annalise in the latter's office.

 

I liked that scene too. And I agree with Annalise - she and Connor have quite a bit in common.

 

I have to admit, I'm not liking Hannah. She's coming across as obnoxious, unhinged and just plain annoying.

[nb360]

I also thought Nate was too calm -- he seemed ready (or at least resigned) for the arrest...

[wanderingstar]

Forgot to add that I enjoyed the mob guy. Him flirting with Annalise was amusing.

[TV Anonymous]

The prosecution's position was that the drugs were found during a routine, random screening of the containers. Randomly screening containers at a port would generally be legal under the Constitution.

 

However, deliberately targeting a specific container or a specific person would require a warrant. Law enforcement generally has to get a warrant under the Fourth Amendment to search someone's property, absent a few exceptions that are not relevant here like suspecting someone's life is in danger, seeing something seemingly connected to a crime in plain view, or avoiding the imminent destruction of evidence. For whatever reason, the law enforcement here did not take the step of seeking a warrant.

 

So if law enforcement violates the Fourth Amendment, there's a concept called the exclusionary rule. This means that any evidence seized because of the illegal search gets thrown out, and usually without that evidence, the case will get thrown out. 

 

We saw Michaela and Connor meet with an agent and she says that normally dozens of containers are selected for random screening but on the night of the bust only Client of the Week's was. That fact supports the idea that Client of the Week was targeted. 

 

The surveillance video shows that the feds were starting to swarm the area before the container was weighed. As said on the show, that also suggests pre-knowledge of what was about to go down by the feds, which in turn further suggests a non-random search. (I'm presuming that normally the inspectors would first do their inspection and then only call the cavalry if something suspicious was found.) So while there is nothing illegal about the feds being in place before the search, it signifies that they targeted Client of the Week and were at a minimum doing the search without a warrant and at worst set him up, 

 

If the government's witnesses all stick to the "random search" story, but the facts bear out that the search was targeted, it would a) expose the search as potentially violating the Fourth Amendment and thus trigger the exclusionary rule and b) at a minimum undermine the government's credibility so severely that they couldn't prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. While border searches are generally deemed reasonable, I would tend to think that there are exceptions to that.

 

But CMIIW, is border search by itself not excepted from the provisions of 4th Amendment? Meaning that border search can be conducted for whatever reason, without warrant and without probable cause, random or not? That is why CBP agents can stop someone and search one's car thoroughly when one is driving from Canada just because the agents think that one looks "iffy"?

[truthaboutluv]

A few things occurred to me after talking about the episode with a friend. One, since when does Rebecca supposedly have a friend who is a police officer? It's entirely possible this is nothing and was just a throwaway line but that stood out to me. Two, I thought Connor made a reasonable point that it is kind of a random coincidence that the body was found. Yes, putting it in the garbage where it ended up in the landfill was riskier than the incinerator, however he was right that this wasn't just a body thrown in a bin.

 

They burned Sam's body to get rid of DNA and then hacked him up to pieces. That it would be found in that massive landfill is surprising. Possible yes, but fairly unlikely, especially if they weren't looking for it. I mean bodies get found in landfills all the time but often when police is actively searching for a body. Sam was at that point just considered missing and likely a runaway because he may have murdered Lila. All this to say I think Rebecca tipped the police off.

 

Yes, yes I admit I'm no fan of hers but this is not just my bias talking I swear. I have never cared for that character at all and I just think she's working some long con and has successfully managed to pull in all these idiots into it thanks to Wes and his blind obsession with her. It's also interesting that the COTW centered around a snitch, where a so called random search was actually a set up. Kind of an interesting parallel to the body "randomly" being found. 

 

And I know it would seem unlikely because she was a part of the murder, but in actuality, she really wasn't or at the least, has the least culpability. She went into the house sure and tried to get information off Sam's computer but Michaela is the one who first accidentally pushes Sam off the stairs and then Wes is the one who deals the fatal blow. And then after Sam was murdered, he convinces the three idiots to make Rebecca leave because she was already on trial for Lila's murder meaning she played no part in the cover up and disposal of the body. If she comes clean to detectives, especially saying she was in the house because she was desperate to prove her innocence about Lila's murder and suspected Sam did it, she could get out of this with some probation at best. 

Edited February 14, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[cooksdelight]

One, since when does Rebecca supposedly have a friend who is a police officer?

If Nate's her friend, and he's been in on the thing for a while now, that sort of makes sense that he'd let her know about the body. He let her know to check Sam's computer.

[helenamonster]

I think Rebecca said that it was a brother of a friend who was a cop. Still, she has that cop connection, and it would be interesting if she was pulling the long con on them all. The fact that they had Connor mention the very slim odds of finding a hacked-up body in multiple trash bags in a massive landfill seemed like a pretty big hint that there was a rat among them.

 

Still, though, where is Michaela's ring? Clearly it wasn't in the trash bags, and the police went through the house pretty thoroughly and didn't find it. I guess it could have gotten buried or otherwise hidden in the woods, but chances are it'll surface eventually.

[cooksdelight]

If that engagement ring was registered to the fiance, he'd get the call when they find it. Oh boy, Mommie Dearest will be pissed!!

[ribboninthesky1]

I assumed the body would be found fairly quickly, precisely because of the way they disposed of it.  Once they couldn't bury it or didn't incinerate it, and they chose to put ALL the trash bags in one dumpster that appeared to be in town, or close to town, that ups the risk.  Bodies have been found in considerably more inconspicuous places.  For all they know, one of the trash bags came loose or was torn open when the trash was dumped.

 

I hope Wes is smarter than he's acting with regard to Rebecca. She lied by omission regarding the former tenant, and he can't think that was an accident.  Rebecca has been shady from the jump, so my hope is that Wes is starting to use that brain of his vs Wes Jr.

 

It'll be interesting to learn what becomes of Nate.  If Annalise doesn't take his case, I'd be surprised.    

 

Something about Annalise has bothered me all season - the emotional unraveling over Sam and his involvement with Lila.  It sounds like they've always had a volatile relationship, with Sam being a manipulative ass.  While I'm unconvinced that Annalise was involved in Lila's murder, I understand why others would believe it.  If she knew of Lila the entire time, and had her murdered, then I could reconcile her behavior as a performance to throw Sam and anyone else off the scent (much like her final phone call to Sam's cell phone). Otherwise, it makes no sense to me. 

 

I'm sure it was done for the mystery, but I've always wished we could have had more Sam/Annalise scenes.  I've never been that interested in the students, and would have preferred less of those flashbacks.         

[jjj]

The larger moral issue that doesn't ever seem to be discussed is:  did Sam deserve to be killed, and should someone pay the penalty for killing him?  Even if he killed Lila (and I suspect we will soon learn he did not), did he deserve to die in that way?  And to have his remains wiped away?  If I were Hannah, I would definitely want some retribution, and would want to give my brother a burial.  Right now, Annalise is the only suspect she can reasonably identify. 

 

But basically, was Sam really that much more terrible than regular manipulative and unfaithful guys?  The show seems to want us to believe yes. 

[ribboninthesky1]

When you say it's not discussed - by whom? The show? I don't think anyone here has stated that Sam deserved to die. 

 

The show constantly cast him in a bad light, particularly that final scene between him and Annalise (too far for my tastes, but it's done).  More importantly, we didn't get much of Sam, and so it's hard for me to feel any indignation about this death. I'm fine with Hannah wanting justice for her brother, but I tend to agree with others that the histrionics are annoying.  She came on the scene more antagonistic than concerned, IMO, so she's not being shown in the best light, either.  To be fair, Annalise has done herself no favors in that regard.  I don't care much about their conflict because we've had no build-up before Hannah came on the scene, not even flashbacks.   

 

I don't care much about the students, so I can't say I'd be heartbroken if one, some, or all go to jail over it. But I don't go there because I have no reason to believe the show would get rid of any of them.  It would be interesting to get a new set of students every semester, but given this is the first season, and Annalise's practice is already at risk, would she even have clients?  To me, the fallout with Sam and his murder should have been in another season.  Because all of this stuff is happening in the first season - what happens moving forward? More of the same? If they all get away with it this season, is the rest of the show going to focus on the psychological fallout? 

[truthaboutluv]

But basically, was Sam really that much more terrible than regular manipulative and unfaithful guys?  The show seems to want us to believe yes.

 

 

I don't think the writers are trying to make a moral argument one way or the other. That would seem pretty ridiculous on a show like this where at this rate just about everyone's hands are dirty in some way, save for maybe Asher and his dorky self. The show is a mystery and I think right now, with regards to Sam, all they did was give a lot of suggestion that he likely murdered Lila and was clearly going murder Rebecca and Wes, trying to protect Rebecca, killed him. They didn't mean to do it but it happened.

 

So as of right now, no, Sam isn't seen as just a regular manipulative and unfaithful guy, but rather someone who murdered one innocent girl and was about to do it again to protect his secret. However, as I have believed for months, the next bombshell twist for this show is likely going to be evidence showing without a shadow of a doubt that he didn't kill Lila which will throw everything on its head. And it will be particularly interesting to see the reaction of the Keating 4, especially Laurel, Michaela and Connor, who found themselves there that night under the belief that Sam was a murderer and dangerous and they needed to protect Rebecca. 

Edited February 14, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[ancslove]

Sam wasn't killed out of rage or revenge, he was killed to prevent him from killing someone else.  He was definitely trying to kill Rebecca - did she deserve to die that way just because some find her annoying or bitchy?  What happened to Sam's body afterward was horrible, and I can see why Hannah would be sickened and enraged.  But Sam escalated the violence, and chose to attack Rebecca again in the aftermath.

 

Actually, if Sam didn't kill Lila, then he has even less motive for trying to kill Rebecca.  That would mean his entire attack that night was just trying to save his reputation, since he hadn't done anything criminal.

Edited February 14, 2015 by ancslove

[bantering]

I don't think it's strange that Hannah would cast suspicion on Annalise. It's how she's casting suspicion that's annoying me. 

Edited February 14, 2015 by bantering

[jjj]

Okay, thanks for these perspectives on whether Sam deserved to die -- I think it is brilliant to bring Hannah into this, aside from it being MGH, because it gives us a different perspective on Sam, a more human perspective.  He really has had no supporters up to this point!  BTW, I do think he was slime, but not evil.  (Unless it turns out he killed Lila, which I have always doubted.) 

[Mabinogia]

Yeah, it makes sense Hannah would think it was Annalise. They had a volatile marriage, Anna isn't acting the way Hannah expects a grieving widow to act and I get the feeling there is a lot of past animosity between them. But it was her shrieking "arrest her, arrest her," that was so fucking annoying it made me want Annalise to get away with it (even though she didn't do it lol oh, this twisty little show, but you know what I mean). I hate Hannah already. I want Annalise to have an antagonist that is her equal, but Hannah just isn't doing it for me. I'd actually love for Bonnie to flip sides because I think she is one of those still waters that run deep types. It would be interesting if the people Annalise is depending on, Bonnie and Frank, decided to turn against her. Without them would she be as powerful?

Speaking of, I want to learn more about the relationship between Bonnie and Frank. Their interactions are often odd to me. I can't put my finger on why though.

[jjj]

Bonnie and Frank strike me as two people who have shared some very questionable/illegal activities on behalf of Annalise in the past.  So, they have a détente of "mutually assured destruction," meaning that if either one ever turns on the other, both will be destroyed.  It makes for a delicate balance of suspicion and alliance. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

Please don't do anything to get in trouble and have your computer searched, because they'll find that search about removing blood and luminol. :)

Heh, on top of searches for "how to get away with murder". Early on I did that a couple of times before I realized it might not be a good idea.

 

Nevertheless, my first reaction was, "Damn, Nate arrested means no more shirtless scenes or hot sexy times! Whhhhhyyyyyyy, show?"

IKR? I wanted to reach into the TV and slap Annalise. She better pull out all the stops to keep him from being convicted but even if she does I can't imagine he's ever going resume their intimate relationship. I'd be okay with Annalise finding a way to pin it on Hannah.

 

I have to admit, I'm not liking Hannah. She's coming across as obnoxious, unhinged and just plain annoying.

Yes. I get that plot-wise Annalise needs a foe but IMO the Hannah character is too one-dimensional. I'm guessing MGH's run on the show is limited but if not the writers are going to need to flesh that character out a lot more.

[WalrusGirl]

Please don't do anything to get in trouble and have your computer searched, because they'll find that search about removing blood and luminol. :) I agree, her hardwood floors must really be something not to suck up even a tiny bit of blood.

Ha, that did occur to me! But my google history is frequently on the morbid side, and I figured the timing with the episode and posting explains that. :-P ("You see, HTGAWM's forensics just contradicted CSI's, and I wanted to see which was poorly researched.") I don't have the stomach for a coverup, so can't imagine trying to clean up blood from investigators (vs just cleaning up blood to not have a bloodstain) is going to be an issue!

Two, I thought Connor made a reasonable point that it is kind of a random coincidence that the body was found. Yes, putting it in the garbage where it ended up in the landfill was riskier than the incinerator, however he was right that this wasn't just a body thrown in a bin.

Yeah, it does seem like they must have been proactively looking for a body. They probably considered his disappearance suspicious from the get-go. Didn't the news report (last week) that a body was found at the landfill "a week ago"? If the murder was what, mid-December, I'm not sure exactly where in January the show's plotline is, but it was probably found at least two weeks after arriving at the landfill. They must have been looking - an inadvertent find would have happened more like 3-4 show-weeks ago, within days of the murder. Right?

Sam wasn't killed out of rage or revenge, he was killed to prevent him from killing someone else. He was definitely trying to kill Rebecca - did she deserve to die that way just because some find her annoying or bitchy? What happened to Sam's body afterward was horrible, and I can see why Hannah would be sickened and enraged. But Sam escalated the violence, and chose to attack Rebecca again in the aftermath.

Actually, if Sam didn't kill Lila, then he has even less motive for trying to kill Rebecca. That would mean his entire attack that night was just trying to save his reputation, since he hadn't done anything criminal.

Agreed. But legally, since they had broken into the house (to steal, even), I don't think it's self-defense because the death occurred during the commission of a crime. I don't think Wes had a choice, since Sam was clearly trying to kill Rebecca, but they're the ones who set the events in motion.

Though, since Sam was dead and couldn't testify to their unauthorized entering and (data) theft, Annalise could vouch that of course they were authorized to be in the home, they work there. They'd just need to explain why Sam was trying to kill Rebecca (the Lila history/Annalise's massive conflict of interest representing her could work), resulting in his getting bashed in the head. And the coverup is still a crime.

[possibilities]

It does seem like the show is kind of biased toward Annalise and the interns, i.e. the way the present it, we're supposed to be afraid they'll get in trouble, not rooting for them to get caught. I think this is a very common problem with media, in that most stories are sympathetic to the main characters, whether they are victims or perps. In crime dramas, if the main characters are the cops, we root for conviction, if the main characters are criminals, we root for escape. The Wire was one of the exceptions to this tendency, in that it took sides much less, but in general, I think viewers are expected to sympathize with whoever they spend the most time with.

 

They didn't have to write Sam's sister as being so annoying; they could have presented her as a sympathetic person who was devastated by the murder of her brother, and the grisly disposal of his body, and who devotes herself to figuring out what happened. It could have been a race between Annalise and Hannah, to see which one of them can out-think and out-maneuver the other. But then we might wind up losing interest in Viola Davis as the leading character, and start rooting for Hannah to take primacy on the show-- ans that's a dead end because once Sam's case is solved, Hannah has no other purpose on the show. Annalise has more story potential as a character, because of her profession as well as her relationship with the people involved in the current case.

 

It's an interesting problem for writers, to write a show people will watch, without them rooting for the leads.

[Sile]

Does anybody still have earlier episodes and could check to see if the statue was missing the scales when Laurel gave it to Frank? If not, then that means they fell of sometime after it came back to the house and wouldn't really have anything to do with the murder. Just a red herring for the viewing audience.

[helenamonster]

Looking at Sam's death logically, I don't think he deserved to die the way he did. Whether or not he killed Lila, the Murder 4 + Rebecca were in his house uninvited, and Rebecca was stealing from him. Trying to strangle her was overboard, but the fact is that he wouldn't have died if they hadn't been in his house.

 

Does anybody still have earlier episodes and could check to see if the statue was missing the scales when Laurel gave it to Frank? If not, then that means they fell of sometime after it came back to the house and wouldn't really have anything to do with the murder. Just a red herring for the viewing audience.

 

I'm fairly certain the scales fell off before Laurel gave the statue to Frank. Actually, in the episode with Sam's death, I remember them being on the statue when they all thought he was dead (after Michaela pushed him over the banister) but then gone after Wes hit him.

[jjj]

Again, how could they not notice the scales were gone while they were trying to cover up everything out of place. 

 

And I had been thinking it would have been far easier for Sam to be defended for killing Rebecca, an intruder in his own home, than for the K5 to be defended for killing a man defending his home and belongings.  Again, I think the guy was slime, but so are a lot of people walking around. 

[JenE4]

I don't think that I can root for Annalise anymore. Ok, I get that she's trying to protect herself and the Scooby Gang, and one of her HTGAWM rules is to find another viable suspect to cast doubt. But she actively framed the man she loves (or at least supposedly has some level of affection for)?! What the--?! As far as TV shows go, that was a hell of a twist ending, but I just lost all respect for her as the protagonist. I get the point made above, and I can often root for the flawed protagonist even if they're on the wrong side of the law, but this just crossed the line for me. And I hope the fact that her alibi is being at his place and that her cell phone history will prove that she was there will just blow up in her face. I'm sure there will be a twist and she'll HTGAWM-ize Nate, too, but that was just wrong, and it's going to take some heavy character development and plot twists for me to get over that betrayal.

[ancslove]

In court/legally, I agree that Sam probably has just cause.  Morally, I think he lost the high ground when he attacked the second time.  Nothing justified trying to strangle her.  He's slime, but he's also very willing to kill.

[ribboninthesky1]

I'm curious to see what happens, but I can't say I'm hopeful that Annalise and the students get away with it all.  In a show that's built its base on twists, one/some of them being put on trial, if not going to prison, for Sam's murder would be an unexpected twist.

 

I'm probably in the minority in not being much of a Annalise fan, though not on moral grounds.  After 12 episodes, I don't know that much more about her than I did at the beginning of the show. So I'm pretty neutral on her fate.  I'm particularly annoyed by the way she regards Bonnie.  She barely tolerates her, and I keep thinking, "Well, damn, if you dislike her that much, you should have held true on her termination." I always assumed that Bonnie was a competent attorney, but apparently not.  I don't understand why Bonnie's still around, nor why she puts up with the perpetual cold shoulder.          

 

We don't know much about Frank, either, but Frank likes to be needed, so I get why he hangs around.  Especially after she trusted him with the truth.

Edited February 15, 2015 by ribboninthesky1

[Chicago Redshirt]

But CMIIW, is border search by itself not excepted from the provisions of 4th Amendment? Meaning that border search can be conducted for whatever reason, without warrant and without probable cause, random or not? That is why CBP agents can stop someone and search one's car thoroughly when one is driving from Canada just because the agents think that one looks "iffy"?

It seems to me, without doing any research on the matter, that although border searches are presumptively deemed reasonable, they could still be done in an unreasonable/unconstitutional manner. 

 

For instance, if the government literally decided that it was going to exclusively search every brown-skinned person just because, it would still be violating equal-protection. It would not be able to hide behind "Well, we can search whoever we want to, so there."

 

I would say that if the facts were as presented in the show (prosecutor offered a green-card bribe to target a specific container as if it were being chosen at random, and the same prosecutor has been going after the owner of that container), there would be a good case that such a search was fundamentally unreasonable.

[KaveDweller]

Annalise knew how to destroy the students' DNA by burning the body she'd know that bleach doesn't get rid of blood, forensically. I think they can't generally get a DNA match, but it doesn't hide that blood was there.

 

I also thought the cops can see that you recently bleached an area, so even if it gets rid of the blood they know you are hiding something and will just work harder to find something concrete.

 

I don't think it's self-defense because the death occurred during the commission of a crime. I don't think Wes had a choice, since Sam was clearly trying to kill Rebecca, but they're the ones who set the events in motion.

 

Now, I am no legal expect in any way.  But I think you can still call it self-defense even though they had broken into the house.  Just because they broke into the house doesn't mean they then have to sit back and let Rebecca die.....death isn't an appropriate sentence for theft.

I think it would make things messy, and that is why they didn't just call the cops.  There is a risk that they wouldn't be believed, but I think the consequences for that would be less than the whole burning of the body thing.  And since Sam was dead, no one would have been able to prove they were committing a crime.  They could just say they were there working or to talk to Annalise when Sam came in and attacked Rebecca.

[kikaha]

I'm curious to see what happens, but I can't say I'm hopeful that Annalise and the students get away with it all.  In a show that's built its base on twists, one/some of them being put on trial, if not going to prison, for Sam's murder would be an unexpected twist.

 

I'm probably in the minority in not being much of a Annalise fan, though not on moral grounds.   I'm particularly annoyed by the way she regards Bonnie.  She barely tolerates her, and I keep thinking, "Well, damn, if you dislike her that much, you should have held true on her termination." I always assumed that Bonnie was a competent attorney, but apparently not.  I don't understand why Bonnie's still around, nor why she puts up with the perpetual cold shoulder.          

We don't know much about Frank, either, but Frank likes to be needed, so I get why he hangs around.  Especially after she trusted him with the truth.

Bonnie stays because she idolizes Annalise, and the excitement/action/stimulation working with/alongside her brings.  Annalise's treatment of her has turned her into kind of an addict: the occasional praise more than makes up for the contempt.

 

I think Annalise keeps Bonnie because 1) she can 100% trust Bonnie; 2) Bonnie carries out Annalise's instructions; 3) she knows Bonnie will do anything for her.  Important qualities for someone who skirts and violates the law as often as Annalise does. 

 

Frank needs someone to direct him and his semi-sociopathic inclinations.  He needs to pull his illegal James Bond stunts, without going to jail.  Annalise is the perfect orchestrator for him. 

 

That's my take, anyway. 

[Blue Plastic]

I can't believe Annalise threw Nate to the dogs like that, however, she is the same woman who used him in court and started the destruction of his career, so I guess we shouldn't be too surprised.

He didn't look all that shocked or surprised about his own arrest, which I thought was interesting.

 

I see they've further reduced Wes's character to being a perpetually confused mute. They should send him over to Agent Carter, his blinking would be a great morse code device.

He seemed to start out as a major character and catalyst for events in the show (even if he was actually just being manipulated by Annalise and maybe Rebecca), but now he just sits around, blinking stupidly.

 

Even though Annalise and her students are so cold and sneaky, I find myself rooting for them over Hannah.  I just wanna punch that woman in the face.

 

IANAL and I'm sure most of the legal stuff that is portrayed incorrectly on the show goes right over my head, but that thing about Hannah saying that Annalise threatened to kill Sam 3 years ago...wouldn't that be, uh, not very timely?  I find it hard to believe they could get a search warrant based on a 3-year-old threat.

[JasmineFlower]

Nate definitely didn't seem surprised to me but I can't decide if that's because he knows Annalise is capable of stabbing him in the back or because he knows he's a logical choice to arrest, isn't surprised and is doing something for her that he knows she can get him out of.

 

I didn't think Hannah being on the stand was particularly great in a believable legal sense even remotely, but a great performance by Marcia Gay Harden. I thought Bonnie was particularly weak and Marcia had the better lines. There is literally no way they would execute as detailed of a search warrant as they did - i.e., the entire house with full forensics - based on the weak say so of a biased sister-in-law who heard a fight between Sam and Annalise THREE YEARS AGO. That's thin by any measure and something Bonnie should have gotten thrown out. I'm hoping they show that the DA with the major grudge against Annalise got a friendly judge to not oppose the search warrant because nothing else makes sense. What they have is beyond weak and Marcia on the stand, while great theatre, was nothing that was compelling enough to get a warrant for the full search of the house. I mean, she couldn't even come up with something from the last year and they have no evidence that his murder was at home. Forget allowing a hearing for it to be challenged, the judge wouldn't have approved the warrant at all because it's from something 3 years ago, that's not the basis for anything - that's like saying you killed your abusive husband and the last time he beat you was 3 years ago. So, they lost me during that part for sure since it's quite clear, the show wanted the search warrant to show the nervous kids, have Bonnie figure things out, and show flashbacks of Frank and Annalise's cleanup.

 

The dumb law students - They are literally acting accusatory toward Annalise, like you said you would protect us and what are you doing to get that down, etc. etc. They seem to have it in their minds that Annalise is the murderer and the students are accessories and not the other way around. They have absolutely forgotten that it's Annalise helping them or nothing because they clearly aren't capable of covering things up on their own. It's a bit ridiculous to me that they seem to have shifted in their mind who is responsible for what has happened. Because Annalise may runs things, but she didn't know they were going to kill him and was not involved in the actual murder. The dumb law students need to remember that and start realizing them acting guilty and panicking is going at every turn screws them because they are the ones who murdered Sam, no one else.

 

Also - A second semester 1L at Middleton (aka Penn Law) who is fumbling for what the 5th amendment is, not a case, just what the hell it is, is ridiculous. I mean, they stretch everything on this show so that literally nothing is like the real thing, but I didn't even see the need for that here and just laughed out loud at how unnecessary that depiction was. Nerves are a fine excuse during Socratic, but not for something basic during the second semester for a school filled with smart students. She'd have gotten over her shyness first semester if she intended to actually survive and graduate.