S03.E13: Canaries

[catrox14]

You know. Another thing that really pissed me off

 

Laurel is still making Sara's murder about Laurel. Did she really say that I realize NOW I have to tell you?  It took her months to come to this grown up decision? Gods.

 

h Do we suppose Laurel is actually going to tell Lance how precisely his baby girl died. And how his baby girl's big sister drug her body all over the city to the Lair and that she helped to bury her in her old grave and didn't call him right away and let him suffer for months worrying about his baby girl.  Laurel can still fuck off.

[BkWurm1]

Oh, but there will be consequences! 

 

LIARS! 

 

Laurel's subconscious yelling at her and making her feel bad are not real consequences. 

[KirkB]

I'm glad Thea finally knows about Oliver.

 

I'm relieved Quentin finally knows what happened to Sara.

 

I can't say anything else about the rest of the episode because there isn't enough room in this box nor within the rules of this board for all the cursing that would come with it.

[CabotCove]

Laurel has a light inside her?   So does my refrigerator.  Doesn't mean I want to watch it fight crime each week.

 

Ok thats funny.

 

This went down in basically my worst case scenario way. Felicity had to tear Sara down in order to build Laurel up--the true mark of a shitty character.

 

Sara already teared down herself before she left Starling the first time, but it was OK back then, it was to prop Felicity/Olicity.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Conell

[apinknightmare]

For the record, I agree with Felicity that Sara had a darkness inside her, part of why she used the mask. I disagree with Felicity that Laurel doesn't have a touch of that same darkness. Laurel shot someone in the back last season and got an alderman killed just two episodes ago.  That's why Laurel is doing this.

 

Yeah, my issue isn't Felicity acknowledging that yeah, Sara had done some awful things and Laurel hadn't done anything on par with that. And sure, what drove Sara was a need to do good after doing so many terrible things, and Laurel is being driven by the more "honorable" motivator - a desire to honor her sister and do good (now, I don't believe this, but that's what they're selling, so I'm going with it for the sake of argument). There's a way to give Laurel a motivational speech without slighting Sara, because she was just like Oliver, trying to be a good person after being dealt a shitty hand. She didn't need to mention the light at all, just say "You're doing this for different reasons than Sara did. You should just be yourself, that's good enough," or something along those lines. 

[foreverevolving]

Has anyone noticed how quiet Twitter has been tonight? I just went in to look for comments and there is almost nothing! Granted i only did a search on the name Arrow so there could be things hidden that are not back by my search term.

[catrox14]

 

Sara already teared down herself before she left Starling the first time, but it was OK back then, it was to prop Felicity/Olicity.

 

How was that propping Felicity? All Sara said was that she couldn't be with Oliver because he needed someone who could harness the light inside of him...and she never named names.   Of course now that I think of the line in that episode....and Felicity saying Laurel has a light inside of her......it really ended up propping....Laurel..:(

[AnyoneButYou]

That's too bad. This along with the good ratings pretty much mean that this is the new Arrow. The EPs have made this an ensemble show and the audience seems to like it. The only way I was going to be willing to come back to watching this show was if KC left after this season, but it looks like she's shoved EBR out of the lead actress role. It's a damn shame. I hate seeing less talented people get other people's screentime because they are the producer's pet.

If it makes you feel any better, Canaries only trended for about 40 minutes during the East Coast airing and not at all during the West Coast airing. The past few episodes the show trended for the entire episode during the East Coast airing and at least part of the episode for the West Coast airing. Amanda Waller trended for a few minutes during the East Coast airing. So, there's a chance that people got bored and checked out during the second half hour.

[lemotomato]

Sara already teared down herself before she left Starling the first time, but it was OK back then, it was to prop Felicity/Olicity.

There's a big difference between admitting your own faults and having a friend criticize you when you're DEAD to make your sister feel better about taking your place.

 

And as has been mentioned earlier, Sara was purposefully ambiguous about who she thought Oliver was better off with.

[foreverevolving]

U know what? Screw the episode, I just want to see the pics meme recaps and reviews.

[Lord Kira]

I can't with this show anymore. The Laurelpocalypse, all of the OOC characters, propping up Laurel, forced angst, etc.  Its just too much. There is no consistency with this show at all. I may continue to watch, but if I do it won't be with any enthusiasm. 

 

Its clear that all of the behind the scenes talent went to The Flash.

 

 

Edited February 12, 2015 by Lord Kira

[Starfish35]

Marc's responding to questions and comments about tonight's episode right now on his tumblr. I'm surprised he's letting so many negative responses through. There's some positive stuff, but quite a few unhappy people as well.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Starfish35

[apinknightmare]

Marc's responding to questions and comments about tonight's episode right now on his tumblr. I'm surprised he's letting so many negative responses through. There's some positive stuff, but quite a bit of unhappy people as well.

 

Yeah, he seems to really want to hammer the point of that "light" comment home, haha. 

[CabotCove]

There's a big difference between admitting your own faults and having a friend criticize you when you're DEAD to make your sister feel better about taking your place.

 

Colleague, when did Felicity and Sara become such best buds. If Sara is dead, she cant know can she lol, therefore it cant hurt her. Seriously, they have been crapping on Sara since she was alive, whats more one person when she is gone. Had it been Sin saying this on the other hand, who has been the closest person to Sara in recent years, I could get the "betrayal". And I would think if Sara was alive, she wouldn't mind much someone like Felicity  (or anyone for that matter) saying something she considers to be her truth. There was hope for her redemption, but she died without fully achieving it. 

 

How was that propping Felicity? All Sara said was that she couldn't be with Oliver because he needed someone who could harness the light inside of him...and she never named names.   Of course now that I think of the line in that episode....and Felicity saying Laurel has a light inside of her......it really ended up propping....Laurel..:(

 

Some evidence suggest otherwise that Sara was referring to Felicity at the time.

 

Not that Sara didn't do her share of propping Laurel too.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Conell

[apinknightmare]

hokeypokey1998 asked:

With the Laurel and Oliver scene in the alley, when she was talking about hiding with the hood to mask his feelings was she talking about his love for Felicity?

 

MG:

Both.

 

 

Wow. So Laurel was talking about his feelings for Felicity AND he posted that Felicity's in love with Oliver. On a roll tonight, I see.

[Starfish35]

Yeah, he seems to really want to hammer the point of that "light" comment home, haha.

Someone needs to point out that it isn't that people are denying that Sara had darkness inside of her - she obviously did. It's the not so subtle insinuation that Laurel is somehow superior, that she has some sort of "specialness" about her that Sara lacked. That's not going to go over well with any Sara fan (speaking as a Sara fan).

ETA: it's the comparison between the two that is the sticking point here. It's this idea that Laurel has some sort of special inner quality that will make her a better hero than Sara was. The bottom line is that this was supposed to show us why Laurel is more worthy than Sara to be the Black Canary. And that's why the line is so maddening for all of us who don't and will never buy that line of propaganda.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Starfish35

[Mia Nina]

It seems as if this show may have gained some new viewers during the Christmas break since ratings have increased.  This boggles my mind because I am not at all happy with the direction that the show is going in.  So I'm super curious, and if you don't mind sharing, I was wondering which plot developments you're most unhappy with?  I'm really wondering if new viewers are being turned off by the same things as long-time viewers. 

 

 

Hey! Well, they've changed. lol At first I was disappointed that Justin Hartley (I didn't exactly like Smallville, either, heh) didn't get to play Arrow in this and I skipped the show entirely. After I decided to catch up it took me almost the entire time to warm up to Amell's Oliver Queen/Arrow. Now I'm mostly upset that Diggle, Felicity and even Oliver are so subdued they're mostly there as honorary members whose most important duty is to welcome and anoint the new class. In short, the show isn't playing to its strengths. 

 

While I couldn't really stand Oliver's S1 and S2 demeanor, if his most important mission in life is saving Thea the entire universe kind of collapses when there isn't anyone else around to pose as a credible Arrow surrogate (which should be Diggle, IMO) who supports the weight of the massively silly costume drama playing out in the streets. Laurel's Canary is a cool idea, but I just don't buy it. I really don't, and it becomes a huge burden to see crime fighting through her eyes, which is why I don't. For the record, I had the same problem with Oliver in S1, but in his case I never doubted his potential, just the execution and unnecessary bleakness of the storytelling (not to mention the annoying parallels to Batman Begins). 

Edited February 12, 2015 by Mia Nina

[lemotomato]

Marc's responding to questions and comments about tonight's episode right now on his tumblr. I'm surprised he's letting so many negative responses through. There's some positive stuff, but quite a few unhappy people as well.

The people who love the episode are all Laurel fans, unsurprisingly.

 

I think the reaction to the line about the light is another thing MG underestimated.

[jay741982]

How was that propping Felicity? All Sara said was that she couldn't be with Oliver because he needed someone who could harness the light inside of him...and she never named names.   Of course now that I think of the line in that episode....and Felicity saying Laurel has a light inside of her......it really ended up propping....Laurel..:(

But this show hasn't been subtle with the Felicity is the light Oliver needs to harness

[catrox14]

But this show hasn't been subtle with the Felicity is the light Oliver needs to harness

 

 

 

But not back then IMO. There was a lot of dispute at the time that Sara said that as to what Oliver meant to Felicity exactly.

Edited February 12, 2015 by catrox14

[steelyis]

Lol that episode was so, so, SO bad 

 

 

 

It was. Sweet fancy Moses was it bad. I could barely keep watching it was so bad.

 

My biggest disappointment, besides the show lamp-shading every stupid thing Oliver and Laurel have done this season, is how bad the fight choreography was. Arrow has come such a long way since season one when the fight choreography was so piss poor I'd seen amateur stunt teams on YouTube do a hundred times better. But in season two Arrow's stunt team upped their game and brought some of the best fight scenes on television (I've re-watched Oliver vs R'as a dozen times because it was that amazing)! But tonight the fight scenes were awful, every last one. Laurel's "fight" scenes made her look like Star Wars Kid.

 

What happened to this show?

 

At least Laurel finally told Quentin about Sara. Paul Blackthorne broke my heart, man.

[loki567]

Yeah, I think I'm done. Seen too many of my favorite shows fall off a cliff not to see where this one's going. Inconsistent characterization, propping up Laurel, too much focus on launching spin offs, sidelining Diggle, stretching Barrowman's role in the show way past the breaking point, wasting valuable resources in Caity Lotz and Susanna Thompson, Oliver and Felicity relationship basically existing now for drama, the list goes on and on. Worst of all, I just have zero interest in seeing where any of this goes. Maybe I'll start watching again in season four when there's some time for course-correcting, but right now they're probably too deep in their production cycle for anything major to change. 

[twoods]

I love Roy. Him sticking up for Thea, then for Team Arrow to Oliver. Thea, go back to him!

Maseo continues to be awesome.

Felicity didn't piss me off this episode. I didn't mind her talking to Laurel, and getting mad at Oliver.

Short stint for Austin. They could have used him more during this arc.

[statsgirl]

Maybe they'll pull it together again for the last four episodes like they did last year.  Maybe I'll come back for that.  Right now, between Team Arrow broken up with Oliver gone again. Diggle on comms and Felicity OOC propping Ray and Laurel, there's nothing I want to see here.

 

 

Side note: one of my cats must have felt how horrified I was during the episode because he came and sat in my lap within five minutes after the episode started and remained there for the entire 45 minutes- purring the entire time! Bless his precious soul, he knew mama needed something to calm her boiling blood pressure.

I wish my cats were as supportive. Maybe they were afraid I'd hurt them when I lashed out.

 

Its about time she gets the honors, everyone else does it. Sara did her time.

 

I totally agree. I think Barry said something like that, Oliver being the light or something.

I think the show's metaphor has been that Oliver is the light that everyone revolves around.

 

The fact that everyone has to take their turn and go OOC for Laurel propping to make the character work says pretty clearly that she doesn't.  At least not the way they are writing her.

 

 I really thought Oliver and Thea on the island would be some extreme choice, not basically boot camp.  This whole storyline is crap.  Oliver is supposed to be learning from the student of Ra's but actually he's teaching his little sister....who learned from the student of Ra's but has just learned how unprepared she is.

Sending Oliver and Thea to Lian Yu makes NO SENSE.  Oliver already knows how to cope with it, and what's Thea going to learn?

 

Me too!  There was a lot of plot stuffed into this one.  His "I'm going where you cannot follow" probably didn't mean the big rave in the sky, so maybe he isn't dead?  Perhaps some heart slowing drug or portable lazarus pit water?  So the bottom line is always throw an LOA foot soldier over the balcony, just to make sure. 

I thought the DJ said "I'm going where you won't follow" i.e. Malcolm, is too much of a coward to commit suicide or fight Ra's himself.I

I'm glad the Chase arc is over, but what a lot of sound and fury over nothing.

Edited February 12, 2015 by statsgirl

[steelyis]

Laurel has a light inside her?   So does my refrigerator.  Doesn't mean I want to watch it fight crime each week.  

 

 

You are my spirit animal.

 

 

I have to go away for a while.  This one hurt in ways I was not prepared for. 

 

 

I am a Smallville survivor so the amount of fuckery I can endure is herculean, but I don't know how much more Arrow floppage I can take.

[BkWurm1]

I am a Smallville survivor so the amount of fuckery I can endure is herculean, but I don't know how much more Arrow floppage I can take.

Yeah, I a Smallville survivor too.  Was there for everything through season 8 and got sucked back in for back half of 9 and the Chloe and Hawkman and Lionel episodes in season 10 only to apparently go insane and catch up on all the ones I'd deliberately missed over on TBS for "research".  

 

My endurance is what has me worried.  I managed to convince myself, really believe, that the show runners could never just up and retcon 8 years of history to prop up a failing character or ever be able to destroy a relationship built up over 8 years and yet show runners proved me wrong.  There were warning signs that I ignored and I don't mean the big over the top anvils, but things like putting characters at odds for great reasons and then never letting them talk to each other about their issues and cutting out all the logical emotional beats they normally would have shared.  

 

We're not at a tipping point for me-yet, but is this the start of a systematic plan to undo everything while leading everyone on, or just another repeat of last year's mid season ignore Felicity (and probably DIggle too) while they move plot pieces around so they can set up their end game where they start writing characters again rather than just pushing plot. 

 

Maybe the thing with the light was just the writers showing their lack of imagination in recycling previously used imagery.   I just don't know for certain and I'm afraid Arrow will send me to the same rage filled place that Smallville took me.  I didn't like it there. 

Edited February 12, 2015 by BkWurm1

[Actionmage]

While past Oliver was a right tool, and current Oliver can veer into that zone, what did Hong Kong Oliver do that makes waterboarding him okay?!  This version of Waller just...I can't.  Were we supposed to think that Waller is right, even if her methods are sketchy or outright inhumane? I don't.  I also don't see why that had to be shown. There are enough spy shows that do that.

 

This is supposed to be about heroes and it's lost that focus. Especially when one hero is needlessly killed, one is unreasonably put into the field,  one is sidelined, one is bent out of recognition, one just mouths words and the titular hero's journey plays second fiddle to the BSC villain of the series-to-date.

 

or just another repeat of last year's mid season ignore Felicity (and probably DIggle too) while they move plot pieces around so they can set up their end game where they start writing characters again rather than just pushing plot.

 

If the writers are doing that for a second year in a row? They need a whole new batch of writers who can write all the characters in the ways the characters have been established and tell the story TIIC want. If there is no way for that to happen? The story TIIC want is flawed and maybe we need a better/ savvier showrunner at the wheel. 

 

The show has twenty-odd episodes to go from A to Z. If Dig and Felicity and Roy have to be written almost as different characters in order to connect some story dots, they are doing it wrong!

Edited February 12, 2015 by Actionmage

[Ariah]

Well, that went South pretty fast. And it used to be such a good show.

 

Welcome to Arrow, the OCC hour!

 

Things I liked: Thea hugging Oliver and his surprised reaction.

Things I didn't like: Everything else. But I may have not paid much attention to the rest, this was the first episode I fast forwarded most of the scenes.

 

And I may be in the minority, but I agreed with Oliver about Laurel and her involvement (until he accepted her in the field). I hear you, it's her life, her choice. Should we then allow all the people who want to commit suicide jump off the roof? It's their choice, right? And if they happen to land on a passerby - well, tough luck.

Mind you, it's not because Laurel's a "weak woman". Remember when Oliver actually shot Roy in the leg to stop him from joining the fight? How I wish he'd do the same to Laurel.

 

And Laurel - not a team player.

 

Speaking of teams... Wow. My favourite dynamic is gone. The team is gone. A well oilied machinery just got a handfull of sand (named, you guessed it, Laurel) pushed into it's cogs. Everything is painfull, watching those people who used to listen to each other with respect is painfull. Audiatur et altera pars - and this goes to everyone involved. Including Felicity.

(I hated her scene with Laurel, but, as I said, the OCC Hour. It could have ncluded the 'light' line, but without dissing Sara. Sara, whom Felicity loved. "You have the same light your sister had" would be fine, albeit puke worthy.)

Plus, I have this awfull idea, Felicity is propping Laurel because Oliver is not. Out of spite. I know it's not true, but... The impression remains. I'm waiting for him to say he likes spring only for her to go all "winter is the best, you know nothing."

 

Actually, I'm all for Oliver spending time away from this new iteration of his team. They "proved" they can work without him? Fine. He's leaving. Don't make a fuss.

Oliver/Thea dynamic is my current light in the darkness on this show (which probably means Thea'll be leaving the show soon). I'm waiting for them to take on the forests of Vanouver island... erm, Lian Yu. Also, totally called it with the rewaking of Oliver's killer instinct.

 

A, goodbye, DJ. We hardly knew you. You were advertised as something special and you only got one good scene. But I want to have random people popping up as secret members of the LoA: a barrista, a flower-girl, a courier. So that the menace would be real, and would come out from unexpected places... I'm not holding my breath, though.

[BkWurm1]

Plus, I have this awfull idea, Felicity is propping Laurel because Oliver is not. Out of spite. I know it's not true, but... The impression remains. I'm waiting for him to say he likes spring only for her to go all "winter is the best, you know nothing."

 

It's not so awful or that far fetched though I think it wouldn't be something she's consciously doing, just that when you are mad at someone, every choice they make can be annoying and it's not hard to find reasons to be on the opposing side of them. 

 

Like when Felicity says Oliver doesn't get to judge them on the choices they made or something like that, it feels like she's reminding him that she's had no say in the choices he's made about their relationship except in "ending" it. 

 

I can't help think that she's projecting her frustration with his controlling ways onto letting Laurel make her own choices. I thought that even before Oliver came back from the dead and pissed her off.  I mean, there has to be some tiny reason why Felicity was willing to encourage Laurel to keep putting on the suit.  Twice now, she's the one that pepped talked her back.  Not huge rousing speeches but little nuggets that seemed to do the trick when instinct tells me more than anything Felicity would ask why would she think this is a good idea? 

 

Even in 3.11 she implied she was there to talk some sense into Laurel.  How did that get to 'you should do it to help the ones still alive'?  Maybe it was all just a philosophical question for Felicity and in figuring out her own motivations, she refused to point out that she and Laurel's skills and places on the team were vastly different situations.  I'm probably not ever going to get a straight answer but yeah part of the reason Felicity was yelling at Oliver had nothing to do with defending Laurel. 

[looptab]

It's not so awful or that far fetched though I think it wouldn't be something she's consciously doing, just that when you are mad at someone, every choice they make can be annoying and it's not hard to find reasons to be on the opposing side of them. 

 

Like when Felicity says Oliver doesn't get to judge them on the choices they made or something like that, it feels like she's reminding him that she's had no say in the choices he's made about their relationship except in "ending" it. 

 

You know, I had the same impression. Actually, I don't know if it's an impression or my way of trying to justify why would she ever say the things she said, when she said them.

But sadly, it's not something I want for her. I don't want her to be the one who can't separate their personal life from their professional one, I don't want her to act like the scorned woman.Just last episode he was the one saying "that's not really why you're upset", and IMO there should never be another instance of that.

Otherwise, she could be making the most valid points about any discussion, but her opinion would always be dismissed in light of that personal involvement.

 

Honestly, I'm not opposed to the things they said Oliver, but at the timing. That kind of reaction, as it was, was really out of place, IMO.

Edited February 12, 2015 by looptab

[Duke Silver]

The good:

--Maseo

--Thea finally being in the know

--QL finally being in the know

 

The rest was either vomit-inducing or a giant mind fuck.  Before I started frequenting this forum, I thought my apathy-turned-dislike of Laurel was perhaps unfounded.  Glad to see I'm not so out of touch.  In an earlier episode thread I predicted (as others have) that Sara would be a casualty of the Laurel-propping.  I totally underestimated the disgusting lengths the show would go to achieve this.  Plus, using Felicity to trash Sara too???  For fuck's sake show!!!!

[somewhereother]

well, that was not entirely unexpected but still awful.

 

I really wish the whole Laurel transformation Arc had been framed in in other way then what it has. 

 

It is always in relation to Sara. It is not Sara as motivation, but as competition. The light line is the worst, because to define Laurel as a hero the only way they choose to do so was to make a comparison to Sara and in the process deny Sara's journey but at the same time try to assimilate her best characteristics (saving women, the city). 

 

I'm expected to swallow that Laurel is a Not-Sara one who is 'better' more moral, more right, more just. It really is version 2.0, Sara without the compromised ideals. Except this doesn't actually wash with Laurel as we know her and as they keep reminding us  (liar, addict, selfish, jealous). They are trying to do the ultimate switcharoo -  remove all of Laurels bad character traits (by indicating that it is cruel and wrong to think that about her - by oliver and vertigo sara as proxy). Then use Felicity to tell us that she is better. Good Job, now I don't like any of these characters.

 

For me it always seemed more heroic to overcome darkness rather than be gifted with the choice of being light. Isn't that exactly Oliver's journey? The whole thing contradicts everything the show has set up.  ughghghhg.

Edited February 12, 2015 by somewhereother

[wonderwall]

I feel like this marks the end of Laurel's journey as she's now BC. Now all we'll see is who she'll train with... But I have a lot of questions and annoyances. 

 

1. So Laurel's journey of 'identity' was going from her knowing she's not her sister, to her trying to honor her sister, to her trying to be her sister, to her going back to knowing she's not her sister again? What type of shitty arc is that? 
2. The EPs said during this mini arc, Laurel would have to find another way to be a vigilante/to fight. Umm, we didn't exactly see that at all. The only thing different about the way she's fighting is that she's using a tonfa (and using it incorrectly). Which still means that she's still the most inexperienced vigilante. It also means that she still adds nothing new to this table. Which brings me to my next point...
3. What in the world is Laurel's relevance to the show's overall arc of Oliver becoming GA? Because these three episodes have failed to explain what that is. Yes, Laurel is important to Oliver, but Oliver doesn't NEED Laurel and that has been firmly established. He doesn't need her as a romantic partner, nor does he need her as a vigilante (because we've had two seasons of Oliver being a successful vigilante without Laurel fighting with him). So why is Laurel important? I can tell you why Felicity, Digg, and Thea are important and even to some extent, Roy... But what does Laurel do for the show exactly? 
4. What is Laurel's motivation exactly? Is it for her not to feel the pain of losing Sara anymore? Because that's such a selfish reason to do so. Oliver doesn't go out there to mask the pain but to honor his father's memory by righting his wrongs, he saves people to honor Tommy, Moira, Shado, and Yao Fei. And while he has temporarily shut down his emotions by being the Arrow and not Oliver, his primary reasons for being the vigilante is NOT because it makes him feel better unlike Laurel. This is why I was angry at her when she blew up at Oliver in that alleyway. She couldn't be more wrong about his motivations. And even if Laurel wanted to become a vigilante to honor Sara, it wouldn't make sense because it's been said on the show that being a vigilante means that you trade in pieces of your soul, and Sara wouldn't want that for Laurel. How can Laurel honor Sara by doing the exact opposite of what she would've wanted?

 

This entire BC arc was such a mess I don't even know what to make of it. 

[doesntworkonwood]

This was awful. 

 

Ignoring the character propping, sidelining, nonsensical side switching wrt to Malcolm, it was such a a boring, frustrating episode. 

 

I think he fact that I was skipping all through the ending because a) I just did not care and b) I just wanted it to be over, shows how bad the writing of this show is now. 

 

I don't care about the characters anymore, or more specifically the nonsensical pod people they've become. 

[wonderwall]

Honestly though, this was hilarious:

 

[tv echo]

I missed this episode because I had a prior commitment, but it sounds like I didn't miss anything except heartburn.

 

More episode clarifications from MG...

freakingoutgirl7 asked:
Hi Marc! I wanted to know who thought making Felicity say that Sara didn't have a light was a good idea? It felt disrespectful to Sara, who would gladly give her life for her loved ones, and to Felicity, who always believed in her team?

Felicity just meant that Sara was a bit of a tortured soul. 

menalsoship asked:
Marc, a mentor told me once about my writing: "never fool your reader. They'll analize your material and know it better than you". So to watch 3x13 we need to forget that Sara had a light inside of her and Laurel's "once you let the darkness inside, it never comes out" of Season 2? Why would Felicity spoke that way about Sara when she very well knew that wasn't true? Can you please stop writing character saying anything to acomodate the story... Please! Sara wasn't pure darkness! She was a HERO!

What Felicity meant was that Sara was a tortured soul, despite being a hero.  When you consider all the shit Sara’s been through in her life — Lian Yu, the League — can you blame her?

splitsunshine asked:
"Why did I have to die? If you wanted to be me, you could’ve. I didn’t have to die." Wow. How rude. You know that's basically what the whole fandom thinks and what? You're mocking us? That's just low.

Our intention wasn’t to mock fandom.  This was Laurel’s subconscious speaking.  That said, Laurel’s subconscious did sound a lot like some people on Twitter after Sara died.  #coincidence

honorthedeadbyfighting asked:
brilliant laurel and felicity scene save for two thihgs- Felicity always being there just to prop up other people's storylines (always Oliver, then Palmer and now Laurel) and that comment about Laurel having a light that Sara lacked. The arrow fandom is done with tearing down female characters to raise others.

I think one of Felicity’s strengths is how she’s always there for people.  It’s interesting to me that nobody has the same complaint about Diggle.

crochetscribe asked:
Is the 'light' comment to Laurel supposed to signify the end of Olicity as we know it, or is it showing us the difference between Laurel and Sara?

It’s the difference between Laurel and Sara.

missyporcelain asked:
Hey Marc. T/O in this ep. made my day! But I am really disappointed with F/L conversation. It felt like you're using F to prop L, and kind of dehumanizing Sara in the way. F doesn't deserve it, S doesn't too and even L. Why you did such a thing?

I don’t think it’s dehumanizing to say that Sara was a tortured soul.  So’s Oliver — and Felicity’s in love with him!

muellerette asked:
Apparently you think Felicity's popularity is bulletproof and she can do no wrong. I can assure you this is not the case. Having Felicity help Laurel lie about Sara to Quentin, and disparaging Sara to make Laurel feel better about being Canary does not make me like Laurel more. It just makes me angry at Felicity. But then maybe that's your plan all along, to knock her down a few pegs.

Sara was a dark, tortured figure.  I don’t think it’s disparaging for Felicity to make note of that.  Oliver’s dark and tortured, too.

snabblewabbles-deactivated20150 asked:
Marc, I was so excited to hear Felicity's line about not believing in hell. IF we are to assume she's atheistic, that makes so much sense for her character! I was disappointed to have seen NO discussion about this whatsoever from fans or EPs - so my questions are, was there any concern about fan reaction to that line? What made you guys decide to include it? Wanted to say thank you! As an atheist in the south, sometimes I feel like I'm on my own Lian Yu. Anyway - HUGE thank you, again! :)

I’m Jewish.  ”Hell” isn’t a concept that’s from Judaism.

teenytinybabyhands asked:

So I'm a little confused.. Before, Roy wanted to team up with Malcolm, and now he's against it because of Thea? What are his motives?

He was willing to team up with Merlyn to stop Brick, but is against Malcolm being in Thea’s life if Thea doesn’t want him to be.  I don’t see the contradiction.

http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/

Edited February 13, 2015 by tv echo

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I just can't with this show. It feels like they bring in new writers who have only watched half the episodes to write the new ones.

 

Roy last week: Malcolm wasn't a bad guy when he tried to destroy the Glades! We should totes work with him! Let's vote!

Roy this week: Oliver, Malcolm is EVIIIIIIIIL! How dare you let him near Thea?

 

Oliver, Roy, and everyone the last two weeks: Laurel, you are super bad at this. We have years of training and street smarts. You have a law degree and a wig. You keep getting your ass handed to you. Also, you are not a hero.

Roy and Diggle this week: Laurel can hold her own because that guy at the gym is such a good trainer! Oliver, you are such a big meanie for not letting her fight crime with us!

Oliver at the end of this episode: Okay then.

 

Thea last week: Hey, secret dad! Instead of skipping town to hide from your mortal enemy, let's stay here. We'll be fine! I totally trust you.

Thea this week: Dad, you suck. I don't trust you at all.

 

Oliver last week: Hey, Starling City, sorry I kind of left you in a lurch, what with this crazy gang of thugs take over the Glades while I was gone. But I am back and I promise that will NEVER leave you again.

Oliver this week: K bye!

 

 

 

Does blackmailing your boss, punching an unarmed injured man in a hospital bed and lying and pretending to be your dead sister to fool your father mean you have a light inside of you?

Yes, because Laurel has sunlight shining out of her ass!

 

And in honor of Chase finally dying!

 

Warning: this one is NSFW due to the F bomb (I know, I know, no one actually killed the DJ since he committed suicide):

 

And I know that Chase didn't hang himself but whatever!

Edited February 12, 2015 by ElectricBoogaloo

[tv echo]

MG is trying to justify the "Sara didn't have light inside her" comment by comparing Sara to Oliver - both being dark, tortured souls - and by saying Felicity loves Oliver nevertheless.  But Oliver does still have light in him because Sara said last season that he needed someone to 'harness that light" in him.  (Even Barry said something similarly inspiring to Oliver in the Flash crossover eps.)  So following through on that comparison, Sara would still have to have light in her as well, if she's being compared to Oliver.  Even MG's explanations make no sense.

Edited February 12, 2015 by tv echo

[LisaM]

I liked the Oliver/Thea reveal and particularly liked Thea's reaction. Roy is growing on me too. Also liked seeing Maseo in the flashback. Cracked up at Laurel fighting at the courthouse steps but that didn't bother me.

 

Did not like the entire Laurel/Sara flashback/hallucination plot nor the obvious propping of Laurel as hero. Ugh.

[somewhereother]

Oh and forgot to mention, to add to the roster of proppers, the whole starling City police precinct think laurel is awesome. Maybe we'll see some 'Canary for mayor' graffiti in the glades soon. Or Quentin will describe her lying fondly as Emmy worthy.

[Sakura12]

I think one of Felicity’s strengths is how she’s always there for people.  It’s interesting to me that nobody has the same complaint about Diggle.

 

Did Diggle say Sara has no light too? Did he trash Sara to make Laurel feel better?  If not, it's not comparable, MG. He named his first daughter after Sara, he's honoring her more than Laurel is. 

 

If Felicity meant that Sara was a tortured soul, why didn't she say that?  If she meant that Oliver was like that too, she also didn't say that. She just brought Sara down for no real reason. 

 

Laurel saying she wants to be hero, automatically makes her not a hero in my book. That shows me she's only doing this for the glory not because she thinks it's the right thing to do. 

[Primetimer]

Actors we thought we'd lost make a reappearance. And so do old locations, which is an actual surprise.

Read the story

[foreverevolving]

Vulture review of the episode

It got 4 out of 5 stars, but... The writer dropped some truth bomb

I don’t buy that Felicity would think that Laurel had a “light” in her. Does Felicity even know Laurel that well? That line also cheapens the show’s many attempts to cast Felicity as the “light” Oliver needs. Unless they’re passing that torch to Laurel. And if so, pass the remote, because I can’t watch that happen.

Amen.

http://www.vulture.com/2015/02/arrow-recap-season-3-episode-13-thea-diggle.html?mid=googlenews

[NumberCruncher]

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't getting some sick satisfaction over MG getting thrashed over this episode on Tumblr/Twitter. Not that it will deter his shit storytelling but still...

[Xantar]

Until I read Marc Guggenheim's Tumblr, I thought this episode was basically a big lampshade on the whole Black Canary storyline. Having Sara say, "You're not me. You can't be me. You're an addict. You're selfish. I didn't have to die" was all completely true. It could have been the writers saying, "Yeah, we know this doesn't really make sense and Sara didn't have to die." It wouldn't have really worked because lampshading will only take you so far, but I would have respected the writers for at least admitting it.

 

But apparently, Marc is trying to convince us that it was all just a coincidence that Ghost Sara sounds just like the fandom. I wonder if he's really that lacking in self-awareness or if it's just PR spin. 

 

Also, Laurel's fight scenes are TERRIBLE. Thea is doing better than her (and it looks like a lot of the time it really is Willa Holland whereas most of the time with Laurel I suspect I'm watching Katie Cassidy's stunt double). Having Diggle say that Laurel can handle herself isn't going to convince me. They have to show, not tell, and so far the showing isn't working.

 

I actually think Katie Cassidy's acting is just fine now. It's probably because they aren't trying to make her into a saint like they were before and they aren't forcing her to have romantic chemistry with anyone. It's just unfortunate that they couldn't keep her as just a tough prosecutor (where I think she's actually been effective).

Edited February 12, 2015 by Xantar

[quarks]

While past Oliver was a right tool, and current Oliver can veer into that zone, what did Hong Kong Oliver do that makes waterboarding him okay?!  This version of Waller just...I can't.  Were we supposed to think that Waller is right, even if her methods are sketchy or outright inhumane? I don't.  I also don't see why that had to be shown. There are enough spy shows that do that.

 

I'm glad you brought this up, because I meant to discuss this, though my thoughts on this aren't very coherent and I'm not sure if I'm going to be making any sense here at all.

 

I thought it was interesting that the waterboarding wasn't effective; the threat to Thea was.  Which goes into the theme of "torture is bad" that we've gotten from previous episodes - except that in previous episodes, including last week's, the characters have all at least given a nod to discussing the ethics of torture and other methods. That even came up on the Flash.  Here it just sort of happened, briefly, and then the camera moved on - something I think is particularly problematic since this explains both why Oliver puts arrows in people to get information (he's experienced something similar himself, and figures it works), why Oliver is so messed up, but also why that's not necessarily the best or in this case the most effective method.

 

Arrow's usually better at raising the questions, at least, if not answering them, but this week, with the exception of Oliver telling Thea, yeah, the dude's evil, but we need him right now (something I wish he'd said to Diggle, Felicity and Roy, and especially Diggle because this is the sort of conversation he needs to have with Diggle), and a little bit from Felicity about wearing a mask, in a speech that I really wish had been tweaked just a little to make all three women look better (and I include Laurel in this), the ethical stuff got left by the side.  I was just discussing with someone about how this aspect - the willingness to look at hard questions - is why I still like this show more than Flash, and why I still find it more memorable than Flash.  Flash is just throwing the villains of the week into some superpowered prison without thinking about the implications of this at all - the audience is bringing up practical questions, but the show isn't.  Flash is fun to watch and I like it, but it remains popcorn. This show can be more.

 

And yet this episode, apart from that Oliver/Thea conversation, it missed that more.  Part of the problem is that this show tends to evade the hard questions whenever Laurel comes up, and this episode was a perfect example. There was a lot that could have been explored in this episode, with parallels between Laurel and Amanda Waller, two government officials going outside the law to accomplish their goals.  This even could have worked in Laurel's favor.  As it was, incredibly enough, it worked in Amanda Waller's favor, partly because Amanda Waller accomplished her goal  (without needing to be rescued by a guy, more on that in a bit) and partly because any moral issues involved with Amanda Waller waterboarding Oliver were sorta mitigated by Laurel later beating up an unconscious guy - after the show had assured us that, ok, yes, Laurel is mostly doing this for the adrenalin rush, but it's ok because she's all filled with light and anyway Diggle is standing right there.  And, more aggravating: yes, Oliver did bring up the adrenalin rush, but no one - not Oliver, not Quentin, not Felicity, not the other cops - brought up the not so small problem that Laurel was using legally obtained evidence to accomplish something outside the law, or asked how Laurel was going to try to reconcile the Black Canary stuff with her law career. It's one thing for Felicity, Oliver, Diggle and Roy to be doing this: they aren't government employees. They don't have other legal methods.  But although we've seen plenty of evidence that Starling City's police and DA are completely incompetent, we missed the necessary step here of having Laurel say, flat out, "I can't be effective as a DA because [reasons] therefore this," and that discussion, as well as discussing what she's really doing this for. We got those conversations with Oliver, Diggle, Roy and Felicity.  We even briefly got those conversations with Laurel a couple of episodes ago. It doesn't take much - just a couple of lines of dialogue, and following up with things like the adrenalin rush, which didn't get followed up here.

 

Oh, and that rescuing thing. One of my ongoing issues with Laurel is that her episodes often work like this:

 

Laurel gets uppity/rude with someone (Oliver/Quentin/Roy/etc) announcing that she's perfectly capable of taking care of herself/doesn't need protecting.

 

Laurel gets into trouble and needs rescue - always by a man.

 

We've seen this at least fifteen times on the show so far, and it never gets less aggravating. It happened here again:  Laurel shows up, questions Oliver's authority, gets yelled at by Oliver, tells Oliver that he has no right to order her around and she's perfectly capable of taking care of herself - and twenty minutes later, sure enough, Oliver and Roy have to go out and rescue her. Laurel is the only woman, on either show, consistently getting treated like this. Sure, Thea, Felicity, Caitlin, and Iris have all been damseled, but they haven't started out the episode insisting that they don't need the hero to help them, only to later screw up and need the hero to help/rescue them.  Iris and Felicity have even managed to rescue themselves. Shado had a little bit of "who exactly is rescuing who" here and a few moments of "I don't need Oliver," but that was back in the first season when island Oliver really was incompetent.  Sara and Sin needed help, not rescue - not entirely the same thing.

 

And almost always, this happens when Laurel is questioning a man's authority - Quentin, Adam, Sebastian Blood, Oliver or Ted Grant. (Once with Kate Spencer.)  That Thea, this episode, also needed rescuing after questioning Oliver's authority....sigh.  At least Felicity didn't.

 

So even now, at the end of her hero's arc, Laurel is still getting framed with misogynist tropes: as here, with the uppity woman who needs to be taught a lesson.  Followed by having her fight with the male villain getting framed as a hot one on one fight scene between two women in tight leather. Sigh. I appreciate the point made on the Flash forum that the conversations about Laurel here can get misogynist, really, I do, but I think this happens in part because of how the show frames Laurel. Even when Laurel is supposed to be triumphing.

[allonsyalice]

Wait sorry i didn't finish this episode (nor last week's or the weeks before) but uh

what was the point of bringing in that DJ is he was just gonna die?????? ?? ????

I just. I used to LOVE this show but now it is just awful.

[apinknightmare]

We've seen this at least fifteen times on the show so far, and it never gets less aggravating. It happened here again:  Laurel shows up, questions Oliver's authority, gets yelled at by Oliver, tells Oliver that he has no right to order her around and she's perfectly capable of taking care of herself - and twenty minutes later, sure enough, Oliver and Roy have to go out and rescue her. Laurel is the only woman, on either show, consistently getting treated like this. Sure, Thea, Felicity, Caitlin, and Iris have all been damseled, but they haven't started out the episode insisting that they don't need the hero to help them, only to later screw up and need the hero to help/rescue them. 

 

Now that Laurel's going to be in the lair and probably in a more prominent role on the show, my greatest wish is that they'd stop doing this with her. I could appreciate Laurel's headstrong nature and maybe root for her on occasion if all the men in her life weren't consistently right to try to stop her from going out and doing something she insists on doing.

Edited February 12, 2015 by apinknightmare

[blixie]

 

As it stands, it seems like she basically decided not to trust him anymore because he didn't tell her that Oliver's The Arrow.

 

Yeah, I assumed that was their spin, but all it did was draw attention to the fact that Malcolm/Oliver are still LYING, about her killing Sara due to Malcolm drugging her. I know some people are mad, Thea wasn't more angry, but part of the reason his lying about being The Arrow to her was so aggravating is because I always thought she would react this way. Plus she's been angry about the oviously lying for 2 and half seasons it was time to see her love her brother again, too bad it's also just to save the mother of all lies for a later date to wedge them apart again. FUCKERS.

 

 

I think that was supposed to be Diggle urging Oliver to tell Thea rather than letting her learn from someone else that he'd been lying to her the whole time.

 

I was honestly confused people interpreted that differently, but then I realized it could seem that way. But yeah Diggle was encouraging him to tell Thea, not warning him not to.

 

 

What is even the point of Malcolm being Thea's protector when the only reason she is in danger is because he made her a target?!

 

Um, because they want you to believe they've written Malcolm as a morally gray character, who is less bad than Beer Gut Al Ghul. Never mind that they killed OFF an actual morally gray character in Moira, and kept a mostly irreedemable fucker around because he's played by a really charming SOB.

 

 

At first I was disappointed that Justin Hartley (I didn't exactly like Smallville, either, heh) didn't get to play Arrow in this and I skipped the show entirely. After I decided to catch up it took me almost the entire time to warm up to Amell's Oliver Queen/Arrow. Now I'm mostly upset that Diggle, Felicity and even Oliver are so subdued they're mostly there as honorary members whose most important duty is to welcome and anoint the new class. In short, the show isn't playing to its strengths.

 

Haha, same. Oh Justin Hartley I will love your Oliver Queen, wellI loved you until they saddled you with Chloe rather than keeping you with Lois. RME.

 

 

episode clarifications

 

Something a good writer doesn't have to do (leaving aside intentional ambiguity) Guggeheim.

 

 

 

Oliver, Roy, and everyone the last two weeks: Laurel, you are super bad at this. We have years of training and street smarts. You have a law degree and a wig. You keep getting your ass handed to you. Also, you are not a hero.

Roy and Diggle this week: Laurel can hold her own because that guy at the gym is such a good trainer! Oliver, you are such a big meanie for not letting her fight crime with us!

Oliver at the end of this episode: Okay then.

 

Hee, I just don't get the all the critical prais for this episode, even a casual viewer has to be going WTF?

[MsSchadenfreude]

Two things I know about Arrow:

 

1. Oliver and Diggle sharing a drink will always make me smile

 

2. any episode named after a Lance sister alter-ego will suck (see Season 2 Birds of Prey and now Canaries).  Although I suppose I should at least appreciate the irony that in Birds of Prey we found out Laurel has darkness inside her and now in this episode we find out she has light.  I decided to interpret that as an ironic take on Laurel's ever lightening hair color. Laurel was dark (brunette) in Birds of Prey and blonder in Canaries.  And yes, I realize Sara was also blonde so that analogy is tragically flawed, but desperate times call for desperate measures people.  

 

I did like Oliver telling Thea he was the Arrow. The look on Oliver's face when he realized Thea didn't hate him was heartbreaking and they mentioned Moira…yay!  Also, I thought Thea's realization that even though she has been training it didn't mean she was invincible was a nice touch.  DJ Douche bested her pretty easily.  (RIP DJ Douche).  Too bad some other people on this show cannot seem to get that message.  But Queen family camping trip on the lovely island of Lian Yu, count me in.

 

Amanda, you always manage to sink to a new low.  Threatening to kill Thea by drug overdose if Oliver doesn't behave.  But hey at least no one is trying to give you a redemption arc…so far.  So there is that.

 

So does this mean we have finished the obligatory very special Lance family drama episodes for this season. God, I hope so. 

Edited February 12, 2015 by MsSchadenfreude