S05.E05: Episode Five

[roomtorome]

I did learn from this though that when I want to make a super duper secret phone call, be sure to leave the door open….oh, Edith.

 

I think she ought to make arrangements to go to the U.S., snatch the child and be off already - get it over with; pull off the bandaid and make this storyline be at least one they manage to wrap up in one season.

 

The writing on this has always been atrocious - except (in my opinion) some vignettes within an episode, mostly involving MS who just never disappoints even if the writing is not up to par for her - her delivery is priceless together with the facial and body language.  Amazing woman.

 

But, from the second Matthew popped up out of his wheelchair, I knew all hope was lost for ever having good storytelling or decent writing for most of the show.

 

That lunch scene was just head scratching - if that was all there was to it, they should have made the dialogue a lot more feisty and biting that it was.  It was more like Mabel scratched Mary with cat paws that had been declawed.  Filler, obviously and a lousy bit at that.

 

I too like Rose and her possible new beau - he's a charmer and of all the possible pairings seem the most natural and sparkly and they actually have chemistry unlike Mary who doesn't even have chemistry with the bannister up the grand staircase.  

[Kohola3]

I tried to discern whether Carson was being more stuffy than usual with Bricker but I couldn't say for sure.

 

Geez, how can you tell?  He's like a wind up stuffed bear all of the time anyway.

[Constantinople]

Mabel > Mary

But for some reason, the eligible men all prefer bitches to foxes.

 

Good point...did Robert go all the way with a maid downstairs or just make out with her? I know he paid for her son's education.

 

Robert and the maid only kissed.

Albeit while Cora was deathly ill of influenza.

Still, technically he only got to first base. I'm what that is in cricket terms.

[ShadowFacts]

I'm always on the lookout for laughs, and the first few episodes of this season had quite a few.  Not so much this time.  Violet's snarks just aren't enough anymore.  I did enjoy Cora's underreactive "Golly, what a night" and had a bit of a chuckle that Mrs. Patmore knew more about Carson's suggested investment than he did.  But that was about it.  Oh, and I guess it was sort of funny that Ms. Bunting blurted out that she loved Tom, when there was nothing leading me to believe that.  Say what?

[hendersonrocks]

I'm hoping that we can wipe out a few plotlines in one fell swoop: Scotland Yard discovers Gillingham killed Green, fearing that his valet just ruined his chances with Lady Mary and her $$$. And maybe they can find Gregson and run over Bricker in their spare time?

 

If Isobel and Merton don't end up together, I'm going to be a very sad camper. 

 

And Atticus! I like Atticus.

 

 

[Featherhat]

The only thing that would make sense about Scotland Yard moving heaven and earth to find out why a servant fell under a bus on a busy street in London is if he was the secret son of someone really powerful and/or someone powerful wanted revenge on the Earl of Grantham by having his servants founds guilty of murder for the 2nd time. The police investigate "fell under a bus on a busy street" to a well off person today.

[Calamity Jane]

My first reaction to this episode, even as it was unfolding, was LAZY, LAZY writing.  I agree wholeheartedly with the post above that said Fellowes does not like to develop a story, just present the scenario.  There are so many interesting directions all these story lines could go, but he just falls back on some awful cliche/stereotype instead of actually following a plot to a satisfying conclusion. I can't not watch, but my word, things move so slowly.  We have gotten a week's worth of plot from five episodes so far, if that.  Downton, I wish I could quit you.   

[fishcakes]

When Robert wears his uniform, he looks like an old-timey movie theater usher. And why are the pants so tight? He puts them on and turns into Lord Lieutenant Badonkadonk.

 

Best moment of the show was Bunting's "I've loved you, you know," and Tom's reply of "cool, thanks, bye!"

[hendersonrocks]

He puts them on and turns into Lord Lieutenant Badonkadonk.

 

You just took the meaning of Donk to the next level.

[wlk68]

You just took the meaning of Donk to the next level.

Ha! The bounty is in the booty!

[MarkySnark]

The funniest thing about this episode for me was Carson seeking financial advice from Robert while looking for an investment opportunity for Mrs. Patmore. Of any person in that entire house, Carson should know that Robert is the LAST one to ask for advice about money. Surprised Robert didn't tell Carson about his love for Charles Ponzi.

[alias1]

Best moment of the show was Bunting's "I've loved you, you know," and Tom's reply of "cool, thanks, bye!"

I know.  We rarely saw them together and suddenly she loved him (enough to continually insult his dead wife's family). 

 

Mabel Fox was a delight.  I hope we see her again.  Blake and Mary are so compatible.  They're both devious.  

 

The scuffle between Bricker and Robert was good, too.  Cora is clueless, as usual, where Edith is concerned.  

 

Poor Marigold!  Being ripped from another loving family.  I, for one, would not want to be sad sack Edith's child.  If she isn't moping she's being obsessive.  I think Marigold would never have room to breathe with Edith.

 

The stupid Green plot continues.  Same with Barrow.   

[lucindabelle]

While a title and money don't buy happiness,, it's kind of stunning to me that Edith or her family would ever allow her own daughter to grow up into. Situation where shed essentially be Daisy.... No prospects, hard labor.

The baby is what, 3? And it's not as if Edith is a stranger to her. To me it's just insane to consign her to a loving but hardscrabble life where shell have little education, go to work young, etc., when she has a wealthy, loving mother with a title nearby, imagine how said child will feel when older. Wait, I could have had music lessons? Gone to school? Maybe college? Not gone to work at 14?

Frankly I do not care about hysterical Margie, she's been the baby's mother for whatm eight months? Her not figuring it out makes her officially the Dumbest Person on the Planet.

[talula]

Mabel > MaryBut for some reason, the eligible men all prefer bitches to foxes. Albeit while Cora was deathly ill of influenza.Still, technically he only got to first base. I'm what that is in cricket terms.

Thanks...I'd have to watch that scene to see if it was first base (French kissing) or just snogging, lol.

snogging (Urban Dictionary)

Contrary to popular American belief, snogging is just kissing- not full on lurve action. Full on kissing, yes- but a snog does not define any other sexual act.

Edited February 2, 2015 by RealityTVSmack1

[saki]

Still, technically he only got to first base. I'm what that is in cricket terms.

 

There isn't an exact equivalent but, having a go (because I love cricket!):

 

Failing to get anywhere = "duck" (really failing to get anywhere = "lame duck")

First base = "off the mark"

Second base = "boundary"

Third base = "six"

Home run = "six, right out of the ground"

[helenamonster]

I marigold has always known edith so it's not as if she'd be going off with a stranger. But regardless shell have a MUCH better future and prospects with edith in the long run, mrs crews is ridiculous but even if she weren't, as one of several children on a farm, marigolds education will be minimal, she'll go to work early and marry young. Sorry, if you want what's best for the child than obviously she should be with titled, wealthy edith, who also happens to adore her,

 

If Edith didn't want her daughter taking a working class life path, then she shouldn't have left her with a working class family.

 

Did anyone else think she was a little...unhinged...in the final scene with Mrs. Patmore and Daisy? I mean, Laura Carmichael has admitted that Edith's about four short of a bushel right now and I think she's definitely playing that, but still. If she does get Marigold back, she'll probably smother the little cutie to death.

[lucindabelle]

I don't think she thought it throug ph but she wante pd them to foster marigold not adopt her, as they now seem to think they are doings at a very young age it probably doesn't matter very much whether she's in an estate with nannies or on the farm.

It will be different when she's a teenager. I doubt very much edith wants her own child not to have advantages.

I thought she seemed upset, but I thought she had cause. Virtually everyone is telling her she has to make a life without her daughter. At least Violet and Rosamund aren't suggesting he dresses adopt the child. In a school in France, edith wouldn't see her but she could be educated better and be in a different class. I'd have been shocked if her elders thought oh we'll let Edith's dauger be a tenant farmer would fly.

[alias1]

I've never seen any evidence that Edith has had Marigold's best interests at heart, only her own.

[talula]

There isn't an exact equivalent but, having a go (because I love cricket!):

Failing to get anywhere = "duck" (really failing to get anywhere = "lame duck")

First base = "off the mark"

Second base = "boundary"

Third base = "six"

Home run = "six, right out of the ground"

I found this... :D :D

Don't forget that baseball is ultimately derived from the English sport of rounders, which also has four bases. Although it's a minority sport today, it's still widely played in British primary schools because everybody gets a turn. – Dan Hulme Nov 14 '13 at 13:34

http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/81450/what-metaphor-do-countries-that-dont-play-baseball-use-for-intercourse

Edited February 2, 2015 by RealityTVSmack1

[lucindabelle]

Even if she doesn't, it's a fact that it's not in the girl's best interests to grow up and become the equivalent of a servant at downton rather than a resident there. Meshes entitled to nice things, education, etc.

And Edith loves her.

How is it any different from ethel giving up a son she loved because the child would have more opportunities with his grandparents? It's exactly the same except in this case the child is younger and already knows the person she would be going with,

I wonder what Donk and Cora would say. I can't imagine why edith even cares about society since she apparently has no friends and never goes anywhere,

Seriously, what is the big fear? The money is inherited, not earned. They have no customers to lose. All the eligible young women are already out.

Edited February 2, 2015 by lucindabelle

[helenamonster]

But that's it exactly. Edith hasn't taken five freakin' minutes out of her day since this whole mess started to sit down and think clearly. She wants to be a part of her daughter's life, but she doesn't want her daughter to be a part of hers. That's exactly what it comes down to and it's impossible to fulfill both of those objectives without hurting other people, as Edith as proved. She finds a nice Swiss family who may have been able to provide Marigold with a comfortable life...oh no, too far away, Edith will never see her. Okay, how about the Drewes, even though at the time the only thing she knew about them was that Mr. Drewe felt indebted to the family and was super good with pigs. Then she gets to see Marigold whenever she wants...but what's this? The mother attaching herself to a baby??? Who would have guessed??? She's dragging so many people down with her, without ever once thinking about what might be best for Marigold. Edith has earned the right to be selfish, but not where an innocent child is concerned.

 

So now what's the next option? Send Marigold off to a boarding school/orphanage where she'd have no family life at all? No, at this point, she's just fucked up too many times. Leave Marigold with the Drewes, send money if it helps your conscience, visit every other month (and not uninvited; what, was she raised in the goddamn jungle?), and leave it at that. That poor little girl has been bounced around too damn much. Edith has brought all of this misery on herself, but that's no reason to let Marigold suffer along with her.

[talula]

He who lives in a glass house shouldn't throw stones...regarding Robert giving Cora the cold shoulder for Simone being found in her bedroom. Though there was nothing between them except flirting on her part.

REMINDER...Robert & JANE

 

 

Jane Moorsum....Ethel Parks

"Can I kiss you before I go?"
—Jane Moorsum's last words in the series. [src]
Jane Moorsum was a housemaid at Downton.

"Jane was employed to work at Downton in 1917 because she was widowed after her husband died in the Battle of the Somme; she came to Downton looking for work in order to support her 12-year-old son, Freddie Moorsum. She took the spot of Ethel Parks who was forced to resign and was in service until 1919. She was easily hired and her mother took care of Freddie if she should need it while she is working. She developed feelings for Robert, feelings that he returned, and the couple shared a few kisses. Robert helped Freddie, a keen mathematics student, to get a scholarship to Ripon Grammar. Soon after, realizing nothing would come of the affair, Jane handed in her notice and left.

Jane's short lived affair with Robert was never found out by his wife, Cora. Even after Jane had left, Robert assured her that he will pay all the costs of her son Freddie's education."
 

http://downtonabbey.wikia.com/wiki/Jane_Moorsum

Edited February 2, 2015 by RealityTVSmack1

[lucindabelle]

I disagree, it's a class issue. Sending money won't keep marigold from being raised in a working class environment. And she's still more than young enough to adapt.

I just don't believe marigolds momentary suffering is enough to condemn her to a life with no advantages. Again, see reasoning behind ethel giving up her son, there are solid advantages to having wealth and money, more then even than now. Mobility was much more difficult. See Daisy only now struggling to complete her education.

For marigold to grow up with that because edith didn't want to disrupt her right now would I think be a terrible crime,

And I don't blame edith for mrs drewe being a pill. Maggie's hysterical and stupid and mr. Drewe was an idiots ot to fill her in. They still could. But the Drewes have no legal right to that child, nor should they. Fwiw, we've seen no evidence of mrs. Drewe loving her either, we've seen Margie hating on edith. I suspect Fellowes just doesn't find that interesting, really we've ahrdly seen the child at all except for teensy glimpses.

The little pause when edith introduced Rosamund as your... Friend, when she was clearly going to say aunt, was such a giveaway, and STILL Margie hasn't figured it out? Come on...

They are foster parents. Foster parents may get attached. But that doesn't mean the parental figure has given up rights, it's the whole point of fostering, and as I said, the threat of selling the farm seems bizarre in the context of this show, when it's been in his family for ages and robert paid the back rent.

Edited February 2, 2015 by lucindabelle

[Driad]

 

I'm in a fiction writing group.  If someone submitted some chapters of a novel, with essentially the same scenes in several chapters, we would ask (politely at first) that he stop wasting our time and write something different.  If he then submitted more chapters, with the same scenes yet again, we would make it clear that he was in the wrong group, and suggest therapy for whatever problem he was trying to work out.

[helenamonster]

But that's the thing. Mrs. Drewe doesn't know she's a foster parent. She thinks that Marigold's parents are dead and that she'll raise this girl just like she's raised her other children. Yeah, it's dumb that she hasn't put five and seven together yet, but she hasn't. She sees Marigold as hers.

 

I won't get into this much more because these points have been argued to death, but I still blame Edith for this mess. Besides, is there any guarantee that Marigold will have any advantages if Edith claims her? As the bastard child of a lady, doors will be slammed in her face. Donk and Cora might cut Edith off for shaming the family. There's no good way out of this situation, and it's Edith's fault. She could have left her with the Schroeders and been done with it, but no. She put her child into a working class family. I refuse to give her a pass if/when she uproots that girl again. Because even if she does, it's not about advantages for Edith. The thought that her daughter is working class hasn't even seemed to enter her mind. She wants unlimited access to Marigold on grounds that allow her to maintain her reputation, that's all. I don't think she gives much of a fuck whether Marigold ends up mucking stalls for the rest of her life or becomes the queen of England. She's never thought about what's best for Marigold once in this entire ordeal. It's all about Edith.

[hendersonrocks]

It's all about Edith.

 

Oh, Edith. I just feel like every time there's anything about Edith the subtext is oh, Edith.

 

And I'd forgotten the cherry on the Sarah Bunting sundae, telling Tom that she wished she knew him before he ever met "them." So, what you're saying is you wish he never met his wife and had his kid? Alrighty then. That seems like just about the most perfect way for her to exit. AND NEVER COME BACK. (Please?)

[persey]

I'm in entire agreement with helenamonster about Edith's selfishness and never considering what is best for Marigold.  I also agree that the taint of illegitimacy is not being given sufficient weight.  There was no life for Marigold at Downton with her legitimate cousins. 

 

I'm also about to go all Sarah Bunting.  I'm rather appalled that so much emphasis is being given to the material advantages that Marigold is missing.  Edith had them and she's been miserable her whole life.  Being brought up in a loving working class family is not a dire fate.  And there's a huge difference between the Drewes' situation and Ethel's.  Ethel was starving; she really did have no good options.  Edith's had a lot of options, but she keeps changing her mind and isn't happy with any of her decisions, because, as has been mentioned, she wants it all.  She needs to grow up.  Grownups make hard choices and do without a lot they'd like.  Yes, she'll be sad some of the time.  Welcome to the world, Lady Edith. 

[izabella]

And there's a huge difference between the Drewes' situation and Ethel's.  Ethel was starving; she really did have no good options.

 

 

Mrs. Drewe is one fatal pig farm accident away from being exactly in Ethel's shoes.  Should something happen to Mr. Drewe, there is no Plan B for Mrs. Drewe and her children.

Edited February 2, 2015 by izabella

[persey]

Mrs. Drewe is one fatal pig farm accident away from being exactly in Ethel's shoes.  Should something happen to Mr. Drewe, there is no Plan B for Mrs. Drewe and her children.

She'd never exactly be in Ethel's shoes.  Her children are legitimate, she wasn't dismissed without a reference, her husband had a tied farm on the Downton estate and Granthams wouldn't see her destitute.  An easy life, no. 

[helenamonster]

Oh, Edith. I just feel like every time there's anything about Edith the subtext is oh, Edith.

 

Yes that, as well as Debbie Downer trombones and, "Sure, Jan."

[Catherinewriter]

Several points:

I was OMG when Mrs. Patmore asked Carson for investment advice, fearing that we were going to get a retread of UpDownstairs arc in which James lost Rose's money in the stock market crash. We do know how Fellowes likes to redo plot lines. But thankfully, no. (Where are we year-wise, anyway? How soon is 1929?)

I feel a great deal of compassion for the actress who played Sarah (thanks Fellowes for making her such a ridiculous character that I can't recall her name ). She must have twigged immediately upon seeing the first couple of scripts that she was going to be the hated character. Yet, each time I screamed, "No, Tom, don't go to her." I had to remind myself that she's Fellowes' creation.

Very surprised by Thomas's "treatment." I didn't know that there were "cures" for homosexuality that far back in time. In fact, wouldn't you have put yourself in legal jeopardy by admitting to someone that you were homosexual? How would you have found a "treatment plan" without endangering yourself?

And agree with all posters who question the treatment of poor Marigold. How many "families" is she going to have in her first few years. These people are some of the most irresponsible folks I've ever seen.

So, Russian racism rears its head. I haven't liked the surly Russian (not the NonCount) from the beginning, but now I really hate him. Strange that we've seen no plot line addressing anti-Semitism, which was very strong in Britain then. Well, Cora may be part Jewish, but apparently we're ignoring that. I'd like to see Rose and Atticus together.

I'm imagining these actors plotting to have Fellowes run over by a bus: Carmichael, Rob-Collier, Sarah's portrayer, Froggett by now.

Oh, and do we know why Isobel turned down Dr. Clarkson? He's intelligent, in medicine as she was when she was working, handsome as all get out, and obviously cares for her. Was there something I missed?

[RedHackle]

I might very well be done with this show if Isobel doesn't have the sense to take sweet Merton. He's smart, he shares and cares about her interests, he has money, he seems to genuinely love/care for her, and he's friendly and wouldn't have any problem mixing with the sort of people that she might want to bring into their circle.

 

I respectfully disagree.  I like Merton too, quite a lot really.  But please understand, as hard as it is for many people to believe - not every woman under the sun wants to marry.  I was married once, and never will again.  I didn't even have a particularly bad experience, I just found that marriage isn't for me.  I think Isobel proved that when she so gracefully averted Dr. Clarkson's proposal.  I think him saying later something like 'she saved him from making a fool of himself due to drink' was at least partly him trying to save face.  Anyway,  I thought he seemed like a good match for her, and if she turned him down, it's because she doesn't care to remarry.  I can believe, though, that she might change her mind and decide that Merton's a good match.  But I don't need her to accept it. 

 

What I do need is for Fellowes to wrap up and drop this whole storyline between Baxter, Mosely and Barrow.  It's turned into this season's Ivey-Jimmy-Alfred storyline; no one cares, Julian.  Let it goooo!  It's not the characters that are the problem, either, it's Fellowes' penchant for re-writing the exact same scene 20 different times; 

 

Barrow: snarky comment

Baxter: absurdly kind rationalization

Mosely: "you're being too nice"

Baxter: "leave him alone"

 

I mean we've had this exact same scene how many times now?  I don't know why Fellowes can't make a point or develop a character without having them play the same scene over and over and over again. It's a bit aggravating. It's a bit aggravating.  It's a bit aggravating.  I said, it's a bit aggravating.

[Diane M]

It looked like something changed hands between Bricker and Carson as Bricker was being shown the door, Did anyone else notice? I wonder what it was? Looked like a calling card or something.

 

I thought it was a note from Cora, saying what?  I don't know.  But after he looked at it, his eyes lifted to Cora standing at her bedroom (?) window, looking down at him.

The baby is what, 3?

 

That would be my guess.  She looks to be the same size as my grandson, who is 3.  She's certainly no longer a baby.  

 

I think the whole purpose of the Bunting character was to remind Tom that he is a socialist and will probably never believe any differently.  He loves the Crowleys, but he can never be content living as one of them.  

 

Do Isabel and Violet have dinner at DA every night?  It seems like every dinner is an occasion for the entire family to get together, not just Robert, Cora and the daughters.

Edited February 2, 2015 by Diane M

[ZoloftBlob]

I think the whole purpose of the Bunting character was to remind Tom that he is a socialist and will probably never believe any differently.  He loves the Crowleys, but he can never be content living as one of them.

 

And yet he is content living as one of them and has been for some time.

 

Don't get me wrong, I *like* Tom (and I accept that the writing is flawed) but really, Tom betrayed his socialist beliefs when he accepted Robert's help in getting out of trouble in Ireland by returning to Downton with Sybil and allowing Robert to use his influence to erase the estate burning or whatever it was that he was in trouble for. Tom continues to betray his socialist core by well... never doing anything socialist. Oh he makes a show of how he chafes at Robert's dogleash but really... He was origanally a firebrand and a journalist and now he works for his father in law, the lord of the manor and a representative of the lifestyle he theoretically disapproves of.

 

If Tom wasn't reasonably content with his choice to stay, he would have left long ago.

 

The reality of *the Crawleys* is that while Tom could at some point full on consider himself part of the family, the only Crawleys who really would accept Tom as "one of them" are all dead or Isobel.

[Packerbrewerbadger]

Yes Robert is a jerk to Cora, BUT....... I don't know what bothers me most, how naive Cora was about the thing with Bricker or what a HUGE tease she was! Seriously, who continues to arrange meetings with a man obviously attracted to you ( and he admitted it in London ) both at your house and away and then plans an overnight when hubby is gone! The way she said " only if you behave" wink, wink, could easily be interpreted as an invite by someone who has expressed interest in you. And then she is shocked when he shows up in her bedroom , give me a break! She was using the poor guy to feel good about herself, I almost felt sorry for him.

I thought he gave Carson a note for Cora.

Isobel belongs with Dr Clarkson!!!!!

[lucindabelle]

I explicitly said I am NOT equating wealth with happiness.

What I am talking about is education and opporutnity and security. Besides which, Edith adores that child, that's been made clear.

Illegitimacy in the 20s isn't nearly as big a deal as it would have been 20 years earlier.

When marigold is in her 20s it will be ww2. She will only be in her 40s during the swinging 60s. MY dad was born in 1920 and died in 2007. The idea tht her life will be ruined by being illegitimate is really a 19th century idea and this is a 20th century child. She may want to go to college. Will the Drewes be able to send her? Doubtful.

Back to the episode the obvious solution is for edith to take her own kid back. R. drewe imagining for one moment that edith won't is out of his gourd.

Edited to add: it won't be very long at all before being and need mother won't donmuch to poor edith and her reputation either, this is the modern era, it's not Jane Austen.

People often imagine people are locked into their times Druids forgetting that they aren't. My father saw horses on the streets when he was a tyke, and used email and computers when he died. Little marigold could be alive today. She'd beold, but I know people that old.

Edited February 2, 2015 by lucindabelle

[SusanSunflower]

Yes, Bricker has probably provided that "personal service" to the wives of other men with grand homes filled with unappreciated or underappreciated artwork. Poor little wives, like Cora, left all alone, unstimulated, unappreciated and -- in middle age -- quite under-loved by husbands whose interests lie elsewhere.  Hard choices for the recently-emerged-from-emotional-coma Cora being a naïve tease (not from what we saw in London) or a deliberate jilter, having (like Mary) given Bricker a vista of green-lights all in a row only to pull some girlish -- "gosh, what a night." -- and then feign hurt-feelers indefinitely at the idea that Robert could possibly imagine she had invited Bricker to her bedroom ...  All she needed do was latch the bloody door. 

[helenamonster]

I don't really like the notion that Cora was leading Simon on. Mostly because it's in the same vein of the victim-blaming nonsense that gets tossed on women today in situations of domestic and sexual violence. Cora acknowledged Simon's feelings and expressly told him more than once that it ain't gonna happen. Did she outright discourage him? No, and yes, she did keep allowing him to come back to the house. She's lonely. Her children are either grown or dead, her husband pays her no attention. Perhaps Simon got the wrong impression, but to go uninvited into a married countess's bedroom when her husband is out of town, and then not leave when asked? Huge no-no, and totally on Simon.

[SusanSunflower]

"Not leave when asked"  is one thing ... even being allowed to enter is another ... and those were very very different times (as we are shown constantly). Did Bricker think that she was using him as a cat's paw to reignite Robert's interest in herself?  Or did he just, as they say, want to see how far he could get?  She's not a victim. Nothing bad happened to her.  I'm saying, those tactics likely worked for Bricker before --  He may have thought Cora was being "demur."  Remember Mary's protestations when Pamuk unlocked and opened her door? 

Edited February 2, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[PRgal]

I explicitly said I am NOT equating wealth with happiness.

What I am talking about is education and opporutnity and security. Besides which, Edith adores that child, that's been made clear.

Illegitimacy in the 20s isn't nearly as big a deal as it would have been 20 years earlier.

When marigold is in her 20s it will be ww2. She will only be in her 40s during the swinging 60s. MY dad was born in 1920 and died in 2007. The idea tht her life will be ruined by being illegitimate is really a 19th century idea and this is a 20th century child. She may want to go to college. Will the Drewes be able to send her? Doubtful.

Back to the episode the obvious solution is for edith to take her own kid back. R. drewe imagining for one moment that edith won't is out of his gourd.

Edited to add: it won't be very long at all before being and need mother won't donmuch to poor edith and her reputation either, this is the modern era, it's not Jane Austen.

People often imagine people are locked into their times Druids forgetting that they aren't. My father saw horses on the streets when he was a tyke, and used email and computers when he died. Little marigold could be alive today. She'd beold, but I know people that old.

 

Marigold is more or less the same age as Betty on Mad Men, but without the advantages that Betty had as a child.  Even though she's the daughter of a farmer, there are likely still expectations of her, and for her to have a mom and a dad in a "real" family rather than being raised by a single mom who had her without being married would still have been seen, in the 1920s, as "bad."  We aren't talking about Marigold as an adult in the 1940s or later, we're talking about how people would treat her while she's a child and a teenager in the 1930s.  Even if she's able to get into good schools like Cheltenham Ladies' College or Roedean (i.e. boarding schools girls in her cohort would have gone to), how would her peers see her?  I'm sure people talk, and boarding schools are full of bullies.  She's going to have better opportunities by attending the local school.  She'll probably end up working in a factory during WWII and then will marry a returning soldier.  I don't think she'll be destitute.  Margie might seem crazy to us, but she's just trying to be protective.  I'm a prospective adoptive mother and should we be matched domestically through private adoption, it will likely be open.  However, we're advised to set boundaries.  For example, we might see each other once a year, or Skype every other month. 

[Calamity Jane]

I was OMG when Mrs. Patmore asked Carson for investment advice, fearing that we were going to get a retread of UpDownstairs arc in which James lost Rose's money in the stock market crash. We do know how Fellowes likes to redo plot lines. But thankfully, no. (Where are we year-wise, anyway? How soon is 1929?)

 

Me, too!  It was the very first thing I thought of!  He's such an obvious borrower, I was sure that was where we were going.  Although I think we're a few years away from the big economic collapse.  

[Llywela]

I explicitly said I am NOT equating wealth with happiness.

What I am talking about is education and opporutnity and security. Besides which, Edith adores that child, that's been made clear.

Illegitimacy in the 20s isn't nearly as big a deal as it would have been 20 years earlier.

When marigold is in her 20s it will be ww2. She will only be in her 40s during the swinging 60s. MY dad was born in 1920 and died in 2007. The idea tht her life will be ruined by being illegitimate is really a 19th century idea and this is a 20th century child. She may want to go to college. Will the Drewes be able to send her? Doubtful.

Back to the episode the obvious solution is for edith to take her own kid back. R. drewe imagining for one moment that edith won't is out of his gourd.

Edited to add: it won't be very long at all before being and need mother won't donmuch to poor edith and her reputation either, this is the modern era, it's not Jane Austen.

People often imagine people are locked into their times Druids forgetting that they aren't. My father saw horses on the streets when he was a tyke, and used email and computers when he died. Little marigold could be alive today. She'd beold, but I know people that old.

The reverse is also true - someone argued earlier that if Marigold stays with the Drewes she will grow up to be Daisy. That isn't the case. Times are changing. My grandparents were born into working class families in the 1920s and went on to live comfortable lives as adults. Being raised by a farmer doesn't mean Marigold would be destined to a life on the farm - and if she did stay there, there's no reason to think she'd be miserable. Working class people could and did live happy lives, even without the benefits of wealth and status, hard though it may be to believers.

 

The point is that Edith is being cruel, playing games with other peoples' lives without any thought or regard for how her actions affect them.  I sympathise with her, but I do not condone her behaviour. She can't even claim to be putting Marigold's interests first because she isn't. Her only thought is for how she feels herself.

 

 Margie might seem crazy to us, but she's just trying to be protective.  I'm a prospective adoptive mother and should we be matched domestically through private adoption, it will likely be open.  However, we're advised to set boundaries.  For example, we might see each other once a year, or Skype every other month. 

Good luck with that, I hope it works out for you! My youngest sister is adopted, so this storyline hits me in much the same place it must be hitting you. With our situation, my sister was fostered first and had sporadic contact with her mother, who was a drug addict with no maternal instinct whatsoever - she asked my parents to adopt the baby, but then couldn't bring herself to sign the papers, so we went through years of legal wrangling before it all went through, which was very unsettling for everyone, especially since the mother's visits were so irregular. She wanted her daughter to be adopted and have the stable home she couldn't provide, but was also jealous because she'd never had that herself. More than once she said that she might be ready to be a mother in a few years time - but the thing with kids is that you can't just put them on ice until you are ready. Their needs have to come first. And that's just what Edith is not doing.

Edited February 2, 2015 by Llywela

[abbyzenn]

Until this episode I thought Rosamund had been rather sensible regarding Marigold.  I don't blame Margie for getting upset that Edith brought Rosamund over to see Marigold - that was weird.  It would be one thing to run into them in the village or somewhere around Downton but to bring her aunt to see the child it's not like you're showing someone a prized horse.  I'm surprised Rosamund went along with this.  And then for Rosamund and Violet to come up with another hairbrained scheme to send Marigold to France - just too stupid beyond words.

I don't feel sorry for Edith one bit - she is only thinking of herself.  She wants to see Marigold but doesn't want anyone to know she's actually the mother.  She asked Mr. Drewe to take in Marigold without (as far as we know) ever meeting Margie or for that matter knowing much about Drewe.

I don't know how old Marigold is but I don't think she's 3 like someone above said.  Isn't this series set in 1924?  Sybbie is 4, George is 3.  Edith wasn't pregnant when George was born so Marigold can't be 3.  They did a poor job in casting the child because she looks too old for the part.

[persey]

Illegitimacy in the 20s isn't nearly as big a deal as it would have been 20 years earlier.

 

That doesn't mean it wasn't still a huge deal.  Through the 1950s, pregnant girls would be packed off to homes for unwed mothers and give up all rights to their babies, forever, because of the stigma.  It's why Jack Nicholson and Bobby Darin, to name two celebrity examples, grew up thinking their mothers were their older sisters.  It was a huge shame.  People tried to hide it.  Adoption papers included new birth certificates.  it reflected badly and most unjustly, on mother and child.  It was a big deal, which is why everyone who knows has counseled Edith to conceal it and put it behind her.  The choices might have been between bad and worse, but that's the way it was. 

Edited February 2, 2015 by persey

[Too Late Kev]

I'm saying, those tactics likely worked for Bricker before --  He may have thought Cora was being "demur."  Remember Mary's protestations when Pamuk unlocked and opened her door? 

 

I remember thinking Pamuk didn't really take no for an answer and kept pushing. Mary gave in and slept with him, but that whole thing left a sour taste.

 

Someone mentioned Cora should have latched her door. I don't lock my bedroom door in my own house. Even if we had guests, I wouldn't lock my bedroom door. My kids' bedroom doors don't even have locks. Is that an invitation to come into my bedroom, or my kids' bedrooms, not leave when asked to leave, and to make advances? I hope everyone realizes this is a rhetorical question. Bricker was out of line.

 

When Cora told Bricker earlier he needed to behave, I saw no evidence of a "wink, wink, come up sometime and see me" attitude. She was being clear that he was there as a guest and he needed to hold the suggestiveness.

[lucindabelle]

The Drewes are tenant farmers. Robert had to pay the back rent. So we know there are no savings. It's a precarious existence. She's young enough to adjust easily to the change and it's irefutabl that shell have more opportunities wih money and educatione hind her.

Most rural children left school for good at 14.

People can be bullies, but people are impressed by money and titles. marigolds connections would keep her pretty safe, I think.

MIGHT she donOK? She might. But with money and education, not to mention things like dancing and music lessons, shell just have that much more.

I still don't get why they're acting like its the high Victorian era. None of the Crawleys have anything to lose really. Why should Edith care that much for her own reputation? She doesn't need it for anything - she doesn't go to or host parties, has seemingly no friends...

Edith isn't like a mother waffling on getting her daughter back, or an addicted mother. She has means and love tonspe. She just doesn't have the courage to overcome the social stigma. I think the phone call suggests she will.

[mightycrone]

But, from the second Matthew popped up out of his wheelchair, I knew all hope was lost for ever having good storytelling or decent writing for most of the show.

Hilarious, because it's true. I think at this point, I enjoy the forum more than the show itself. Thanks, guys!

[talula]

I thought Simon was giving a tip to Carson for getting his luggage into the car.  It appeared to be something Simon handed to Carson. Maybe it was an apology note for acting like an impulsive child.

[pasdetrois]

 

Through the 1950s, pregnant girls would be packed off to homes for unwed mothers and give up all rights to their babies, forever, because of the stigma.

Actually, it was still happening in the 1970s and possibly later.

[meep.meep]

I thought Simon was giving a tip to Carson for getting his luggage into the car.  It appeared to be something Simon handed to Carson. Maybe it was an apology note for acting like an impulsive child.

 

Let's all hope that it was his confession to having pushed the rapist valet under the bus (of Justice).  Having Cora reject him, and engaging in some vigorous wrestling with Donk, has finally opened his eyes to how badly he has behaved and he just has to get it all off his chest.

 

These things practically write themselves! :-)

 

It's getting so bad that we settle down on the couch wondering: "what else will go wrong in Lady Edith's life this time?"