S06.E09: Lean In

[Racj82]

That reminded me - doesn't Grease end with Sandy being leather-Sandy instead of Sandra Dee-ponytail Sandy? Of course Ruby came out in Sandra Dee costume. Because we viewers had to know that Ruby is now Sandra Dee-Ruby and not leather-Sandy-Ruby.

 

This show is so damn dumb.

Uh, if she thought she was going to play Sandy at the play hadn't started, what other outfit would she be wearing? I think there is a bit a stretching.

[jb1183]

Like everything else this season, Joel and Julia's story has been executed so poorly. I'm still rooting for them to reconcile, based mostly on the fact that they were the most mature, functional, and likeable couple on the show in the early seasons. It's clear the writers have really been struggling to try and undo most of the damage done to the charcters and their marriage last season. Erica and Sam are terrific and still have lots of chemistry, but I can't help but imagine more satisfying ways this could have played out.

[FineWashables]

So here's my scenario:  After seeing Sarah again, Mr Cyr reconnects with his feelings for her and decides that he has to leave his wife to be with Sarah, just as Sandy realizes that Hank has become so much more self-aware that she now wants him back.  Tough deal for Mrs Cyr but then again, this show hasn't had too much trouble with parents breaking up so far -- Zeek and Camille at one point, Sarah and John Corbett, Amber and the army dude, Crosby and Jasmine for while, and Joel and Julia.  

 

Yes, this would be a trite solution to a complex situation.  In other words, a perfect ending for this show.

[backformore]

The whole Snowflake Academy is so absurd I can't even comment. I do find it funny that Adam and Kristina have some kind of invisible child care for Nora. Where was she when they went with Max to cajole the Jones into not withdrawing Dylan fro the SA? Zeke and Camille live in SF now and Sarah and Julia seemed otherwise occupied. Did they leave a toddler home alone? They really are the best parents ever!

RIGHT!   What kind of parents spend their time running a school devoted to one of their kids while a toddler/preschool aged child is in daycare?   a NORMAL (non-Braverman) family finds that older kids need less time and attention as the years go by, and the young children are the one who need their parents around. 

Unless, of course, we just don't know about the Special Snowflake Preschool attached to the main school. 

 

Uh, if she thought she was going to play Sandy at the play hadn't started, what other outfit would she be wearing? I think there is a bit a stretching.

 

I think the comment was about what she was wearing at the end of the play, the first night, the night she actually went onstage.  If i was following correctly, she played the part one night, and after the play was still in the costume that she would have been in in the beginning of the play, instead of the "bad girl sandy".  the second night she was ready to perform, but was not needed, as the lead actress had recovered. 

Edited November 21, 2014 by backformore

[BC Mama]

What. The. Fuck.

As soon as Dylan's parents said they had "to reschedule 6 meetings" to get to parents night, I knew they would be painted as villains. For Adam to accuse them of absentee parenting in front of the other parents? So unprofessional. But then, he's not a teaching professional, so...

 

If Adam wanted to help, he should have quietly suggested taking this discussion to a private room.

 

Those last 5-8 minutes made me realize how much I will actually miss these annoying people. Gawd, Zeke's face at the end. Makes me TERRIFIED if I get to his age. 

 

I got a little choked up seeing the look of pain and terror on Zeke's face.

 

I may be watching the episode but the harassment story is already driving me bananas.

This is one time that I would love to see a online hoopla from feminists denouncing the show/writers fro allowing this. 

Disgusted does not begin to describe how I feel just by reading this

 

Word! As a feminist (and a rational human being), I was quite furious watching this! Once again rape culture is furthered by protecting the feelings of the "well-meaning" harasser, while the victim is supposed to hide her feelings in order not to cause problems.

 

I wanted to do some binge watching of 'Six Feet Under' because I heard it's a great show. I can't now, because I can't stand the character of Adam therefore every time I see him on the good series I will think of him in this crap.

 

Don't let this show scare you away from SFU! Watching the end of the series finale makes the entire show worth it!

 

Max absolutely was harassing her. I think even HE realized he was when he repeated the definition to them.  The only people who don't think that Max was harassing her was Kristina and Adam. 

 

As much as I hate the character of Max, and the direction the show has taken him, I have to give credit where credit is due. The actor who plays Max is wonderful. When they showed him standing in the background after the confrontation at teacher's night, he looked both heartbroken and guilty, and the actor portrayed these emotions with a lot of depth.

 

It's my understanding that the network announced at the time of renewal that it would be a 13 episode final season. So everything in in this season has been written and filmed with that in mind, which makes the meandering storytelling and the excessive focus on Hank, Ruby, and Sandy even more head scratchingly bizarre.

 

I think it is a budget thing. They probably have to pay the series regulars a lot more than Hank and the gang!

[CMH1981]

 

I could not believe they had Julia TEST Joel like that at the end.

 

Wait, i'm confused.  Julia signed the divorce papers to test Joel and see if he would fold and sign them as well?  I really thought Julia was serious here, I mean hell, Joel signed the papers too.  I just hope this wasn't some post-divorce paper signing sex and that somebody tore up those papers at some point.  I was really hoping that we would see Sydney watching as her parents kissed at the end.

[cali1981]

Wait, i'm confused.  Julia signed the divorce papers to test Joel and see if he would fold and sign them as well?  I really thought Julia was serious here, I mean hell, Joel signed the papers too.  I just hope this wasn't some post-divorce paper signing sex and that somebody tore up those papers at some point.  I was really hoping that we would see Sydney watching as her parents kissed at the end.

Yeah, that one could have played in different depending on what Julia really wanted.  Did Joel love her enough and respect her wishes enough to let her go or did Joel love her enough to refuse to sign the papers and keep fighting for her. The way it seemed to play out was after Joel signed on the line that's dotted, Julia finally realized that any chance of saving the marriage would be gone so it was off to the horizontal mambo they went.  They could always just tear the divorce papers up.

[ShadowFacts]

 

Quote

    The next line after that should've been, "You were assaulting her."

 

Seriously.  Holy crap.  I know his intent wasn't actually sexual -- in his mind he was attempting to be romantic -- but she was screaming things like, "no" "stop" "don't" and in a real world scenario Dylan's parents could have called the police.

 

Maybe somebody should call the police, or child protective services.  Because Max needs to learn boundaries and respect and the law about harrassment, and he isn't learning it at school or home.  He needs to be in a real school that can handle him, not the one he's in and not home-schooled because Adam and Kristina have it all ass backwards.  He is being ill-served by the adults currently around him. 

[arty]

Given that she's spent the past 50 years married to Zeek Braverman, I can totally believe that Camille's survival mechanism -- I mean secret to marriage -- is forgiveness & lots of it.

 

Sarah has so much more chemistry with Mark than with Hank; frankly, she has hardly any romantic chemistry with Hank. But I prefer the version of herself that she is with Hank. So I'm glad that she has been able to find happiness with him. Truth be told, I thought her most believable romance was the ghost of what she had with Seth. Or at the very least, in their scenes I saw a very compassionate and grounded Sarah who also made me feel the deep love & affection that she felt towards this troubled man. Speaking of Seth, I wonder if we will ever find out if Amber has told him that he's going to be a any-word-but-Grandpa.

 

After this ep, I have hope for Max. Like Haddie, I think that he will thrive in an environment away from his parents. He's a sweet, smart boy who has been ruined by Adam and Kristina. He just needs to go off to college and find people like Gaby and Dylan -- kindhearted people who are knowledgeable about his issues but insist on holding him accountable for his behavior.

[politichick]

I've found the screen time with Hank's family a little odd. too. However, my take on the odd stuff this season is probably that the episodes were filmed before the show was cancelled. If the writers had known that they were writing The Last Season, I think it would have looked much different. That said...

 

I hate Hank. I really hate his daughter. I giggled when I saw the scenes with Mark. Of course Sarah's a little bothered. She's seeing him and thinking, "This is the cute, smart, sweet younger man who ADORED me and wanted to marry me, and I threw him over to be with Hank. This ineffectual human being who has the emotional maturity of a toddler. Yep. That's the guy I chose. Yay me."

 

So, Joel walked out on his family because he felt like a failure and didn't deserve Julia? No Joel. You walked out because you were mad as hell with Julia and you wanted to punish her as much as you could. Children be damned, marriage be damned, Julia developed a crush on another man and She. Must. Pay. So now, after all the time she spent getting over him, he wants back in.

Sheesh. Of course they'll end up back together, but I'm not in the cheering section for this one.

Neither am I. And he's become such a pathetic, sniveling sad dad thing. That's not sexy at all. Maybe it was a one last kiss kind of thing and the divorce will be on.

[dargosmydaddy]

 

And ther goes Zeek to the great convertible in the sky. Or does he? I didn't see Crosby in that preview... Ooo, clever misdirection?

Crosby was in the previews; he was behind Adam in the hospital room with Zeek. He appeared to be rolling his eyes while Adam was being heartfelt (I know he was really just looking uncomfortably away from Zeek, but in such a brief clip it looked like an eye roll, and it was hilarious).

[Latverian Diplomat]

 The only mature person in this entire story arc appears to be Dylan. 

I actually think Dylan's reaction rang false (writing-wise, not acting-wise).

 

She's finally in a school where's she's having success and happiness, and Max ripped that away from her with his harassment and assault. I think a teenage girl would be shredded emotionally by the betrayal of all that, and furious with a) Max, and b) Christina for taking that away from her. 

 

Instead she pushes her parents to make peace with Max and Christina? No f*cking way. 

 

And if I were her parent, I would never let her go back to that school. It would be tragic, but some tragedies can't be undone, and that can only be headed off. And Adam and Kristina absolutely failed to head off what would have then played out as Dylan's tragedy in a non Bravermans-are-magic universe.

 

Also, I honestly don't know, but do high school productions typically have understudies? Isn't rescheduling a better option? It seems to me unfair to ask a student to put a lot of work into learning all the songs, dances, and lines, and then still be terrible because they haven't anywhere near the required amount of rehearsal. 

Edited November 21, 2014 by Latverian Diplomat

[cali1981]

Maybe somebody should call the police, or child protective services.  Because Max needs to learn boundaries and respect and the law about harrassment, and he isn't learning it at school or home.  He needs to be in a real school that can handle him, not the one he's in and not home-schooled because Adam and Kristina have it all ass backwards.  He is being ill-served by the adults currently around him. 

And Adam, in his classic style, jumps into the mess with both feet and immediately concludes that if Max is is involved in yet another unpleasant situation, it's got to be someone else's fault.  The man has about  as much insight as a bottle cap.  I'm surprised that he didn't say to Dylan's parents "you need to deal with your slut of a daughter".  It would have nice to see Dylan's dad lay Adam out with one solid punch.  Is Kristina capable of showing anything other than a distraught expression?  She is so out of her depth as the head of this school, dangerously so.

[LotusFlower]

Wait, i'm confused.  Julia signed the divorce papers to test Joel and see if he would fold and sign them as well?  I really thought Julia was serious here, I mean hell, Joel signed the papers too.  

Did Joel sign? I thought it was unclear. They very specifically showed Julua sign, but I thought Joel just took the pen, sighed, and then kissed Julia. All because he didn't want to sign the papers.

[CMH1981]

I couldn't tell if he signed the papers or not, I know he took the pen and all and it looked like he signed it, b/c he loved Julia and wanted to make her happy.  Before I posted earlier, I had to check the episode recaps, like on this site, which says that he did sign the papers, but on ew.com they couldn't tell if he signed them or not.  

Edited November 22, 2014 by CMH1981

[txhorns79]

And Adam, in his classic style, jumps into the mess with both feet and immediately concludes that if Max is is involved in yet another unpleasant situation, it's got to be someone else's fault.  The man has about  as much insight as a bottle cap.  I'm surprised that he didn't say to Dylan's parents "you need to deal with your slut of a daughter".  It would have nice to see Dylan's dad lay Adam out with one solid punch.  Is Kristina capable of showing anything other than a distraught expression?  She is so out of her depth as the head of this school, dangerously so.

 

What makes me so angry with this storyline is that I truly think the writers view Adam and Kristina as doing the right thing.  They should thank God that Dylan is about a thousand times more mature than either they or Max are, and is willing to forgive them.  When Dylan's parents said that Kristina was incapable of seeing things beyond how they were affecting Max, I wanted to stand up and applaud.  It's pathetic that Max has to harass and frighten a girl into hysterics before someone calls Adam and Kristina out on what awful parents they are.  I can't even imagine how furious I would be if I found out the headmaster's kid wouldn't leave my kid alone, and the headmaster not only didn't tell me, but simply let it continue.  

 

And while obviously it is sad for Zeke to have a heart attack, he was a complete asshole to Drew.  I can only hope Drew doesn't now feel guilty, when it was his grandfather who was totally at fault for putting Drew in that situation, and then throwing a fit when he didn't get his way.   

[hqtextbook]

Wait. Straight up nothing at all happened in this episode. It was like a recap of the last 2 episodes. Really? that was the big mid-season finale? we didnt even get a definitive death. 

[pawsodoom]

It's my understanding that the network announced at the time of renewal that it would be a 13 episode final season. So everything in in this season has been written and filmed with that in mind, which makes the meandering storytelling and the excessive focus on Hank, Ruby, and Sandy even more head scratchingly bizarre.

 

I think it is a budgetary issue. My understanding is that the main actors were limited to the number of episodes they could appear in this season (in an effort to save $$), so in order to fill that gap, they are using the actors who portray Hank, Ruby and Sandy (who command lower salaries) more. It seems ridiculous to focus so much of the final season on "minor" characters.

 

I enjoyed the show early on, but as each season has gone by, I dislike the Bravermans more and more. And I think I hate Adam and Kristina the most.

[chitowngirl]

 

Also, I honestly don't know, but do high school productions typically have understudies? Isn't rescheduling a better option? It seems to me unfair to ask a student to put a lot of work into learning all the songs, dances, and lines, and then still be terrible because they haven't anywhere near the required amount of rehearsal.

Yes, they have understudies. They can't reschedule. There is usually publicity involved, scheduling of the space the play is performed, and everyone involved (parents, students, teachers, stage crew, ticket holders, etc.) can't put their lives on hold in case the play needs to be rescheduled because of illness of one cast member. 

[truebluesmoky]

One thing that struck me about Ruby finding out she got to got to play Sandy because the other girl got sick was that her mom then had to buy tickets. Why wouldn't her mom, Hank, and Sarah already be going? She was still in the show even when she wasn't the lead.

[maraleia]

I wanted to do some binge watching of 'Six Feet Under' because I heard it's a great show. I can't now, because I can't stand the character of Adam therefore every time I see him on the good series I will think of him in this crap.

Watch his show Sports Night first. He's really funny in that show so it will be a great palate cleanser so you can watch Six Feet Under afterwards.

[Perfect Xero]

I like Peter Krause so much from Sports Night that I always forget what a jackass Adam is and expect him to actually say/do the right thing.

 

Then I get the Braverman dose of reality.

[Everleigh]

I couldn't tell if he signed the papers or not, I know he took the pen and all and it looked like he signed it, b/c he loved Julia and wanted to make her happy.  Before I posted earlier, I had to check the episode recaps, like on this site, which says that he did sign the papers, but on ew.com they couldn't tell if he signed them or not.  

 

I couldn't tell either and I re-watched the scene again after reading the bit of debate about it here. And after re-watching, I don't think he signed them but it is kind of ambiguous. He takes the pen from Julia and kneels down as if he's going to sign, but he's never shown actually putting the pen to the paper.  He looks at the papers and shakes his head a few times, but his hand is out of the frame so while it's possible we're meant to think he signed it in that brief second where his hand is out of the frame and he's looking at the papers (it's literally about 1 second and not even a long enough time for him to write his name), we don't actually see it. After shaking his head a couple more times while looking at Julia, he then kisses her. I assumed that's what Julia was responding to when she kissed him back--the fact that he refused to give up. He even looks like he's refusing to sign when he's shaking his head, but maybe I'm reading too much into it. 

[KaveDweller]

I think it is a budget thing. They probably have to pay the series regulars a lot more than Hank and the gang!

 

It's definitely a budget thing.  Last spring Parenthood was one of the last shows to get announced as renewed/cancelled.  This was because NBC only wanted to pay each of the main cast for 9 out of 13 episodes, and the cast wasn't happy about that.  But obviously they ended up making some kind of deal where the leads aren't in some episodes.

 

The actors playing Sandy and Ruby are probably pretty cheap, but I would have expected Ray Ramano to get a bigger paycheck.

[jb1183]

It's definitely a budget thing.  Last spring Parenthood was one of the last shows to get announced as renewed/cancelled.  This was because NBC only wanted to pay each of the main cast for 9 out of 13 episodes, and the cast wasn't happy about that.  But obviously they ended up making some kind of deal where the leads aren't in some episodes.

 

The actors playing Sandy and Ruby are probably pretty cheap, but I would have expected Ray Ramano to get a bigger paycheck.

I guess my perspective is that there's about 15 regular cast members on this show, so even with each one having to miss 4 episodes at some point, it still seems like there should be plenty of characters to give story to in each episode without relying so heavily on Hank, Sandy, and Ruby.

Edited November 22, 2014 by jb1183

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Oh my gawd, you guys (please read that in Eric Cartman's voice). I seriously had to pause this episode so many times because these characters are so infuriating. I mean, three minutes into the show and they had already shown me almost everything I hate about this show: Kristina simultaneously being encouraging, patronizing, and annoying with her students, Dylan barging in and doing the patented Braverman interrupting and overtalking, Max having absolutely no boundaries in his stalking, and Zeek trying to sneak out of the house right in front of his wife and then being utterly dismissive of the idea that Drew has classes.

 

Then Zeek had to act like a clueless yet condescending and demanding idiot. How dare Drew not be able to find this one place in France that you don't have a name or address for with his magic computer machine? And how dare he ask if you're allowed to fly? Zeek saying that he's an adult so he can do whatever he wants is exactly the kind of answer I expect from a six year old (or Cartman). I was glad that Drew flat out told Zeek that he put him in an awkward position of having to lie to Camille to keep his secret. But OF COURSE Zeek's response was to guilt trip him about how he trusted Drew. Zeek is such a manipulative self centered dick. I don't care if his intention was to surprise Camille with a trip to France. The way he has been going about planning this trip is the issue.

 

I am so sick of Max's refusal to accept that Dylan doesn't reciprocate his feelings. Just because you like someone does not mean that they are obligated to return those feelings. Haranguing her is not the way to win her over. Grabbing her definitely is not the way to go. I was so glad that Dylan's parents read Kristina the riot act because everything they said was true. Max was not punished in the slightest for the MULTIPLE things he has done wrong in this situation. She has done nothing to protect Dylan or Aaron or any of the other students from Max's inappropriate behavior. Calling Dylan "honey" while they were meeting in her office later was also inappropriate and useless.

 

And what is wrong with the situation when Max, MAX OF ALL PEOPLE, is the one explaining to his parents that he is harassing Dylan and they are still in denial. "You weren't harassing her! You were only doing nice things!"

 

 

 

When Dylan said, "I know Max can't help it." I wanted to punch the screen. YES HE CAN! He's just never expected to.

I thought the same thing too. Stop drinking the Braverman Koolaid and excusing his behavior, Dylan! Max is capable of NOT being a stalker but Adam and Kristina keep encouraging his behavior no matter how terrible it is. That collage was so sweet! You are so thoughtful! You are just showing her how much you like her! It's horrible to watch his parents tell him to keep ignoring EVERYTHING Dylan says. Just keep bothering her until she likes you back!

 

As if Adam and Kristina weren't horrible enough to Dylan's parents, they do a pop in late at night and then start off their visit by babbling about the tiles? Ha, I loved that Dylan's mom's response was that she would give Kristina her designer's phone number. I'm so confused by the timeline. Dylan's parents were both wearing green at the open house and then they were wearing the same outfits when Adam and Kristina went to their house which was at least a day later.

 

Chris is also a dick. First of all, your place of work is not the time or place to discuss your relationship. Secondly, how is Julia signing the divorce papers going to immediately change her relationship with Chris? I understand if he wants their relationship to move forward but does he think as soon as the ink is dry on the divorce papers they will get married? It's only been a few months since they started seeing each other so calm down, dude.

 

 

 

So Mr Cyr teaches at Ruby's school? Of course he does.

If you live in the city of Berkeley, there is only one high public school (Berkeley High). Since Adam and Kristina live in Berkeley and Hank lives close enough to their house for Max to walk to his place after school, then it's totally believable that Ruby's mom lives in Berkeley and Ruby therefore goes to BHS which is where Haddie, Amber, and Drew all went to high school. Of all the crazy ridiculous things I have seen on this show, Ruby going to the same high school where Mr. Cyr teaches is not even in the top 100.

 

I couldn't believe that Ruby's mom said that it wasn't fair TO RUBY that Savannah, the girl who was actually cast as Sandy, decided that she felt well enough to perform on the second night. Do you not understand what an understudy is? It doesn't mean that you get promoted to the star of the show permanently. And Ruby has a terrible attitude if she said she didn't want to go on if she didn't want to only be in the chorus. It only took one show for her to get too big for her britches. And a nitpick: after the first show, she came out to see Hank, her mom, and Sarah in her goody goody Sandy costume but at the end of the play, Sandy is in her tight black pants outfit.

 

I honestly don't know, but do high school productions typically have understudies? Isn't rescheduling a better option? It seems to me unfair to ask a student to put a lot of work into learning all the songs, dances, and lines, and then still be terrible because they haven't anywhere near the required amount of rehearsal.

My high school always had understudies and not just for the leads. When we did Grease, we had understudies for Danny, Sandy, all the Pink Ladies and T-Birds, as well as anyone with lines (Patty, Eugune, Miss Lynch) or a solo (Earth Angel, Cha Cha, Johnny Casino). The understudies had separate rehearsals so they were very prepared.

 

The fact that Camille said that marriage is about forgiveness says a lot about her marriage. In any long term relationship there will probably be disagreements and forgiveness, but to say that marriage is about forgiveness? No. Marriage is about love and happiness and friendship and trust and supporting each other. It drives me absolutely crazy when people say that relationships are hard work. Relationships shouldn't be a chore. When you find the right person, it's not all compromise and work.

Edited November 22, 2014 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Shermie]

No kidding. I think marriage to a Braverman is hard work, though.

I also wonder how Ray Romano is a bargain actor filling in for the expensive main stars. He was a sitcom lead for 10 years and is an Emmy winner. He's probably more recognizable to Joe Average than Peter Krause.

And speaking of PK, he was also in the short-lived nighttime soap Dirty, Sexy Money, which I loved ( at least for the first season, as usual, they f'd it up in season two with a lot of nonsense, lost viewers and it was cancelled). It had Donald Sutherland and Jill Clayburgh as his parents, and had Blair Underwood, William Baldwin and Lucy Lui!

I don't understand the construct of Snowflake Academy. I thought Max thrived in an environment of order and routine, but SA seems like a teen coffeehouse, with everyone lounging around all day in open spaces with no schedule or closed rooms. Or teachers - what's that about? Is it that hard to have Kristina refer to Random Extra #1 as Ms. So-and-So, the science teacher? Or to have another adult help with all the arguing and fighting that surrounds Max (I said it surrounds him, it's never his fault).

[TVForever]

It's my understanding that the network announced at the time of renewal that it would be a 13 episode final season. So everything in in this season has been written and filmed with that in mind, which makes the meandering storytelling and the excessive focus on Hank, Ruby, and Sandy even more head scratchingly bizarre.

Yikes. I didn't know that. Now I am confused as to why this season is taking the turns it has. Why bother introducing new characters knowing that you won't have much time to tell their story? 

I love this show. I hate this show. I'll miss this show when it's gone.

[ShadowFacts]

 

The fact that Camille said that marriage is about forgiveness says a lot about her marriage. In any long term relationship there will probably be disagreements and forgiveness, but to say that marriage is about forgiveness? No. Marriage is about love and happiness and friendship and trust and supporting each other. It drives me absolutely crazy when people say that relationships are hard work. Relationships shouldn't be a chore. When you find the right person, it's not all compromise and work.

 

With Zeek, let's face it, there would have to be a lot of forgiveness/picking your battles.  It's not all hard work, that's an overstatement that bugs me, too, but effort, care, paying attention-definitely.  No relationship is all smooth sailing, not marriage, nor parent-child, or friends, or coworkers.  I think Camille's point was directed at Julia's immediate situation and sticking point with Joel.  Didn't Zeek have an affair and then Camille had a retaliatory one herself?   I felt Camille was on point with what both Joel and Julia need to do. 

[txhorns79]

I think Camille's point was directed at Julia's immediate situation and sticking point with Joel.  Didn't Zeek have an affair and then Camille had a retaliatory one herself?   I felt Camille was on point with what both Joel and Julia need to do.

 

I kind of thought Camille missed the point of what Julia was saying.  I thought Julia wasn't talking about forgiveness, so much as her issue being that she felt like Joel abandoned her during their troubles, she pulled herself together to get through it, and now that she was finally able to move on, Joel is back wanting to make things work.  I think that would give even the most forgiving person serious pause.  Though I do agree that "forgiveness' was probably a continuing theme of Camille's relationship with Zeek.

 

And how dare he ask if you're allowed to fly? Zeek saying that he's an adult so he can do whatever he wants is exactly the kind of answer I expect from a six year old (or Cartman).

 

I thought Zeek was an ass to Drew, but I understood Zeek's attitude.  Zeek is in a difficult spot.  There are a lot of things he cannot do anymore, and I probably would resent my grandkid asking me questions like "Can you fly on a plane?" as though I was a child who couldn't handle the activity on my own.  However, I would also say that Zeek shouldn't put his grandkid in that position to begin with. 

[ElTVaddict]

Krause and cast were great in Sports Night as well, a show that ended way too early.

 

I'm still amazed at the Joel hate.  If he had cheated, most people would think nothing of the wife throwing the husband out of the house.  In this case, maybe he should have done the same thing ... thrown Julia out and tell her to come back once she can be trusted.  Instead, he put her needs above his and allowed her to stay in the house while he left.  That seems pretty noble to me.

 

For those who say he stayed away too long, when should he have returned? ... when Julia was going back to the divorced father instead of spending time thinking about how she had hurt Joel? .... when Julia was sleeping with SnowFlake Academy teacher dude to satiate her physical longings instead of getting counseling regarding why she couldn't emotionally support her husband?   .... when she had a relationship with a lawyer in her firm .... when would Julia have been emotionally available to get rid of the selfishness and put Joel's needs in front of her own like he had done for her so many times?  Can someone answer that?

 

... and where are the parents? saying ..."Julia hon, you shouldn't have schtooped all those dudes .... you should have been thinking about how you hurt your husband."

 

Joel ... run as far as you can dude!  Don't look back at the Braverman mushroom cloud!

Here, Here!! Someone who see their relationship the same way I do.

 

Julia is very selfish and no one is calling her on her actions.

[alexvillage]

I came back here to "translate" the Kristina/Max/Adam scene with Dylan's parents.

Translating to Katim's (AKA Autism Speaks pawn) language.

Autistic kids are so difficult, they create difficult situations for the parents, and they can be really mean to other people, since they have no empathy and cannot really feel like other human beings do. Max is "different" and Adam and Kristina are so sorry he caused Dylan such stress. The parents (Adam, Kristina) were not paying enough attention (after all, they have to deal with Max all the time and it just happened that they kind of broke down at that moment) and they are sorry Dylan had the Max experience. But everybody else needs to understand that parents do their best and are so, so tired of all the burden Autistic kids bring to life, they have to go through these embarrassing situation. It is autism's fault. Parents are always great, if they have an Autistic child, they are flawless. 

 

In the best marketing practice, Katims does insert some meaningful scenes, like Max realizing that he was harassing Dylan. Or actually apologizing to her, with the insight of telling the parents that he will only talk to Dylan if Dylan wants to listen. But then, the final message has to be about how autism messes people up and creates havoc (Max cannot help/ the parents are so great, the disrespect they showed everyone else must be forgiven because autism). Subliminal messages. Katims is no fool. He knows exactly how to play the game

[BC Mama]

I have to ask: What was Kristina thinking pairing Dylan and Max together? It was grossly unfair to Dylan, being left in close contact with the boy who is harassing her, and it was cruel to Max to be given more opportunity to try to "win over" the girl who rejected him, giving him even more false hope!

[JoannKB]

Everyone's mad at how Adam and Kristina acted in re: Dylan & Max, but if all the characters acted perfectly and we loved everything they did, this show would be boring.

 

In the world of charter-schools-started-by-parents (and there are a lot of them in California), I have seen Kristinas and Adams. The way they act, talk, make decisions - it can be awful, but it feels real to me. I know people like this. These people infuriate me when I meet them in real life, but when I see them on this show at least it feels like I am watching humans and that makes me enjoy what Parenthood is doing.

[mojito]

 

And why is Drew constantly in his damn room all the time anyway?

It would be pretty boring to show scenes of family members knocking on his door and not finding him there. Also, I doubt if even a Braverman would barge into his classroom.

 

Oh, if you want to study Peter Krause, don't watch Six Feet Under or Sports Night. Catch him on Cybill. He played her son-in-law. (He did, but just kidding about making a point of catching him on that show.)

 

I really like this show a lot. I don't do much dissecting of the characters because well, it's just a TV show and I'm pretty okay with suspending belief for less than an hour. Something that I've been wondering since maybe last season, though. Did Zeek always call Camille "Millie"? That seemed to be something new. I mean, I only think of her as "Camille" and who else on the show would be calling her by her first name? I just sort of wonder about this one.

 

As much as I like this show, I feel it's time to wrap it up. At least this one is going out at just about the right time, versus all those other shows on TV that go on and on and on.

[backformore]

I have to ask: What was Kristina thinking pairing Dylan and Max together? It was grossly unfair to Dylan, being left in close contact with the boy who is harassing her, and it was cruel to Max to be given more opportunity to try to "win over" the girl who rejected him, giving him even more false hope!

Yes. Kristina does not have ANY training or experience to run what looks like an alternative high school for kids with emotional problems. In the real (non-Braverman) world, that would take a master's degree in special education or some equivalent degree.

In an earlier episode, she explained to Max that at school, she wasn't in the mom role, she was an administrator. But - ANY teacher who had a clue about teens and romantic relationships would know that if a boy likes a girl and she rejects him, you CANNOT expect them to immediately go to being friends. And that if a girl wants distance from a boy who is pursuing her, you make it happen. Kristina messed up big time when she didn't follow through with being the administrator, and she was just being Max' s mom. Dylan wasn't asking to have her classes changed, she was asking to not be his partner for a project. Kristina knew that Max was going through some heartbreak, was not accepting the rejection. It was HER responsibility to make sure that Max and Dylan were both handling the situation.

Which brings up another point. Why is Kristina running through lines with kids for a presentation, AND deciding who are partners for a science project?? (Or whatever it was) where are the teachers she was supposed to hire? The two kids she was coaching through their lines were ok, she could have left them to deal with Max and Dylan - who were working ALONE on a project without supervision. REALLY? Special needs kids at an alternative school, which was set up specifically to avoid kids being victimized by other kids.

(Well, I guess it was set up to avoid MAX being victimized) but the way to do that is to make sure all kids are safe. And supervised.

[dizzycow]

Hi everyone,

 

I've been lurking on this forum for a while and I've watched Parenthood since the beginning.

 

As much as this show frustrates me sometimes, I do love this show.

 

I was wondering if the writers of this show purposedly writes Kristina and Adam as the kind of parents they are right now?  It seems that they lack knowledge and skills of handling a child who has Aspergers.  I've noticed throughout the 6 seasons, the writers have had implemented various of characters calling on Adam and Kristina's bad parenting style.  Perhaps it was intended and I've known some people who are like that.  You think after 6 seasons, Adam and Kristina would improve on their parenting style?

 

I have to give the actor who plays Max a lot of credit for acting as a person who has Aspergers.  He is truly talented.  I've worked with children and adults who have Aspergers... mild to extreme (like Max), but one thing that bugs me on this show was that there is no progress on Max.  I've worked with students who have the same attributes as Max has, but with interventions and working together, they actually have improved (there are a lot of setbacks, but they have improved).

 

I am sad that this is the last season, but it feels like it's the right time to end the show.  Why are they focusing so much on Hank, Ruby and Sandy this season? I realize that the episodes are cut short and the actors are contracted to be in only 11 of 13 episodes.... but Holy moly... this show is about the Bravermans, not about Hank and his family.

 

Despite my rants, I still think that Parenthood is a good show.  No show is ever perfect.  There are a lot of powerful scenes and moments in every season and that reminded me of why this show is good.

 

I apologize for my grammar skills as English is not my first language. :)

[Clanstarling]

Joel and Julia both have their share of blame. As a parent, though, it really bothers me that Camille and Zeke are more supportive of Joel than their own daughter.

 

I don't care how wonderful Joel is, or that Julia screwed up, Joel is the one who chose to blow up their lives - not just Julia's, but their kids' lives as well. He was the one who wouldn't fight...for a year. And when Julia's moved on and come to terms with the new normal, THEN he decides well, maybe I've made a mistake?

 

As a parent, how can you see your child and grandchildren go through that and still push for reconciliation? How very un-Braverman of them. It's like they're saying, "You're a bitch and you're lucky anyone loves you like that. Forget the last year of confusion and pain. Settle."

 

As for the kiss at the end, I didn't read it as reconciliation. Just bittersweet nostalgia and wistfulness and a last intimacy. But if anything, the forums show that mileage varies with pretty much anything.

[CMH1981]

Do we know, was this Jason Ritter's only episode this season?  I don't care for the Mark Cyr character and would rather we don't re-visit him any further.

 

In regards to Hank, Sandy, and Ruby being featured so much I have a feeling that they will reconnect as a family and Hank will leave Sarah.  This might be why we are getting so much of their family this season, so it won't be just out of the blue if and when it happens, which is odd considering the way we usually get stuff on this show from the writers.

 

We usually have Sarah making the decision in regards to her love life, and I think this time that we will have her seeing Hank and Sandy getting closer again, and Sarah will either bow out or Hank will say he needs to see what happens when his ex wants to rekindle what they once had.  I think it was telling that Sarah told Hank she was happy with her decision and where her life is now when she usually is never that way w/any of the men that she has been with in the past, she always looked for greener pastures so to speak.  It will be heartbreaking though if it does happen and Hank ends things w/Sarah b/c he wants to get back together w/his ex so they can be a better family unit.

Edited November 22, 2014 by CMH1981

[txhorns79]

Do we know, was this Jason Ritter's only episode this season?  I don't care for the Mark Cyr character and would rather we don't re-visit him any further.

 

I'm not entirely sure, but it didn't seem like they were leaving the door open to revisit him.  His conversation with Sarah felt pretty final.  I can hardly believe that just a few seasons ago, he and Sarah were discussing having a kid and moving to New York so she could work on her writing.  Talk about dropped plot points. 

[kathybgd]

When do you think think this show went off the rails? I remember and I actually binge watched up to season five, then picked up on it week to week), but I remember rolling my eyes (I don't recall what season). during a Halloween episode. It seemed to me Christina expected the WHOLE neighborhood to comply to her rules for Max's benefit. I did love the character of Adam while Christina suffered with the cancer. I believe it was heading downhill soon after.

[izabella]

I am so sick of Max's refusal to accept that Dylan doesn't reciprocate his feelings. Just because you like someone does not mean that they are obligated to return those feelings.

 

I don't understand why Kristina and Adam didn't point out that Max only likes Dylan and has zero interest in any other girl, and that it works the same way for Dylan.  No one could force Max to have feelings for another girl, just like Max can't force Dylan to have feelings for him.  I suspect he would be able to understand that.

[ShortyMac]

As for the kiss at the end, I didn't read it as reconciliation. Just bittersweet nostalgia and wistfulness and a last intimacy. But if anything, the forums show that mileage varies with pretty much anything.

 

I thought the same thing, like on House when Chase and Cameron had sex after the signed their divorce papers.

[econ07]

Joel and Julia both have their share of blame. As a parent, though, it really bothers me that Camille and Zeke are more supportive of Joel than their own daughter.

 

I don't care how wonderful Joel is, or that Julia screwed up, Joel is the one who chose to blow up their lives - not just Julia's, but their kids' lives as well. He was the one who wouldn't fight...for a year. And when Julia's moved on and come to terms with the new normal, THEN he decides well, maybe I've made a mistake?

 

As a parent, how can you see your child and grandchildren go through that and still push for reconciliation? How very un-Braverman of them. It's like they're saying, "You're a bitch and you're lucky anyone loves you like that. Forget the last year of confusion and pain. Settle."

 

As for the kiss at the end, I didn't read it as reconciliation. Just bittersweet nostalgia and wistfulness and a last intimacy. But if anything, the forums show that mileage varies with pretty much anything.

 

Wasn't Julia the one who wanted to give back their son, and Joel was the one to preach unconditional love and seeing their son through the hard times.  I think that is representative of how their characters have been developed.  Julia looks for immediate satisfaction and getting rid of uncomfortable situations ... Joel stands true and serves.

 

I think Joel reacted in the only way he felt might get through to Julia's selfishness.  He left her.  I see Julia as the one who was constantly blowing up the family, spending time with other dudes when every single one of her needs wasn't met.  Unfortunately, Joel's hurt didn't get through to her as while he was trying to make sense of things and help Crosby redo his floors (still serving), Julia was completely focused on herself, amping up the dating, and not reflecting at all on her role.

 

I sincerely hope they reconcile, and then start running into all the dudes she slept with after he moved out ... just to make it real clear to Joel how little she was anticipating his return.

[txhorns79]

I don't understand why Kristina and Adam didn't point out that Max only likes Dylan and has zero interest in any other girl, and that it works the same way for Dylan.  No one could force Max to have feelings for another girl, just like Max can't force Dylan to have feelings for him.  I suspect he would be able to understand that.

 

I think the problem with this is that it expects Kristina and Adam to act like actual parents, and not like their job is to protect Max from any kind of disappointment or unpleasantness. 

 

 

I have to give the actor who plays Max a lot of credit for acting as a person who has Aspergers.  He is truly talented.  I've worked with children and adults who have Aspergers... mild to extreme (like Max), but one thing that bugs me on this show was that there is no progress on Max.

 

I think actor plays Max like he is a dead-eyed robot.  I tend to think the reality of Aspergers is that in most cases, it can be very difficult, but the kids will eventually show some kind of progress. It may not be a lot, but there is something generally.  Max, as a character, seems like he gets worse every season.  I would honestly fear for anyone who has to deal with him once he is outside of the protective cocoon his parents have created for him.  He's entirely unable to function in the real world.    

Edited November 22, 2014 by txhorns79

[Cattitude]

Joel and Julia both have their share of blame. As a parent, though, it really bothers me that Camille and Zeke are more supportive of Joel than their own daughter.

 

I don't care how wonderful Joel is, or that Julia screwed up, Joel is the one who chose to blow up their lives - not just Julia's, but their kids' lives as well. He was the one who wouldn't fight...for a year. And when Julia's moved on and come to terms with the new normal, THEN he decides well, maybe I've made a mistake?

 

As a parent, how can you see your child and grandchildren go through that and still push for reconciliation? How very un-Braverman of them. It's like they're saying, "You're a bitch and you're lucky anyone loves you like that. Forget the last year of confusion and pain. Settle."

 

As for the kiss at the end, I didn't read it as reconciliation. Just bittersweet nostalgia and wistfulness and a last intimacy. But if anything, the forums show that mileage varies with pretty much anything.

 

What exactly did Joel do? I don't really get it. He had to take a step back and I totally agree with econ07 but didn't want to quote such a long post. I saw both Zeek and Camille supporting their child by pointing out the obvious. She STILL loves her husband. Why would they want to encourage her to cause herself MORE pain? The best way to support and love your children is to tell them the TRUTH even when it isn't pretty, not to just pat and coddle them.

 

Julia can't be alone where as Joel can. Joel didn't even DATE a single person while he was alone he was thinking and working through. Julia wanted to bury it all and the cracks would have kept growing. Julia jumping from one man to another clearly showed how WEAK she actually is and that she as little insight into her own self. She clearly has needed counseling for a long time when losing her job caused her so much identity crisis. If that was a MAN who acted like she did when she lost her job everyone would have been up in arms if the woman hadn't left like Joel did.

 

In a relationship crisis I truely don't think "a year" is a large amount of time especially for a couple married at least 10 yrs. Julia had three relationships with other men in that short time. What does that say about her?

 

I truely saw Julia going and signing the papers as a TEST to see what Joel would do and he didn't sign them. That is what she wanted and that is why she kissed him. I guess some people don't watch the previews b/c it is clear they are back together it was no goodbye. Julia is clearly in Joel's arms in the background of Zeek's hospital room in the previews.

 

I just don't get the Joel hate, but I'm bias b/c to me he is the healthy one in the relationship and always has been. He is her rock, but he expected her to be his too and SHE actually let him down. When he was getting success and doing well she couldn't be there and support him she let him down. That is why he left.

 

I have seen him grovel and grovel over and over and she groveled for about 5 mins before she moved on the hott teacher.

[Clanstarling]

I don't hate Joel at all. As I said before, they've both done things and made mistakes. In an earlier season (the first?) Joel was kissed, in the same fashion as Julia was kissed, and not only didn't tell Julia, but once she knew, expected her to be okay with the woman hanging out with Joel.

 

What exactly did Joel do? I don't really get it. He had to take a step back

 

Taking a step back when you're the only two involved is one thing. Taking a step back - and refusing to go to counseling - when you have a family. When you have children who will be scarred, who already have trust issues (Victor), is pretty bad. Leaving once you know it is done is one thing - but Julia wasn't the only one left hanging for a year, so were the children.

 

Myself, I don't don't really get all the slut shaming regarding Julia. In the space of a year she had sex with three men (her husband, a fling with a teacher, and a relationship with the lawyer - unless I missed someone). Hardly sounds like she's running around messing with every man in sight. If it had been a guy, generally speaking, no one would blink at that. She and her husband were separated - by his choice - and she tried but he wouldn't address it.

 

In my opinion, year long step back is way too much time to expect or even hope for a reconciliation.

 

But again, I don't hate Joel, but also don't hate Julia. Most divorces have a fair amount of blame on both sides. Doesn't make either party a bad person, just people who for whatever reason, couldn't make it together.

[Cattitude]

Myself, I don't don't really get all the slut shaming regarding Julia. In the space of a year she had sex with three men (her husband, a fling with a teacher, and a relationship with the lawyer - unless I missed someone). Hardly sounds like she's running around messing with every man in sight. If it had been a guy, generally speaking, no one would blink at that. She and her husband were separated - by his choice - and she tried but he wouldn't address it.

 

In my opinion, year long step back is way too much time to expect or even hope for a reconciliation.

 

I disagree. One reason men who leave get painted as the villian is for this very thing. If Joel had left and started dating even one woman it would have been thrown in his face. It is not slut shaming at all, I'd have said the same thing regardless of gender. When a long term relationship is stressed or broken the parties are best served taking plenty of time to heal before jumping into intense(sexual) relationships with someone else especially when not even divorced.

 

I've been married for 23 yrs and a year is just a blink of an eye. Plus I never felt Joel took a whole year stepback. The writers had Joel remorseful and wanting to get his family back at the end of last season then that just got dropped and reworked as him just now wanting them back. whatever.

[Clanstarling]

I disagree. One reason men who leave get painted as the villian is for this very thing. If Joel had left and started dating even one woman it would have been thrown in his face. It is not slut shaming at all, I'd have said the same thing regardless of gender. When a long term relationship is stressed or broken the parties are best served taking plenty of time to heal before jumping into intense(sexual) relationships with someone else especially when not even divorced.

 

I've been married for 23 yrs and a year is just a blink of an eye. Plus I never felt Joel took a whole year stepback. The writers had Joel remorseful and wanting to get his family back at the end of last season then that just got dropped and reworked as him just now wanting them back. whatever.

 

Well, if the circumstances were reversed, I wouldn't blame Joel for doing the same thing. So, in an odd sort of way, we agree (in terms of gender not factoring in to our opinion about the behavior itself).

 

I do, respectfully, disagree about a year (or even 6 months) being a blink of an eye. I too, have been married for a long time (in my case, 30 years), and a separation that long without active attempts to reconcile and refusal to go to a counselor to fix the issues, would be a deal breaker.

[econ07]

Hopefully I'm not the one being accused of slut shaming?  I'd say the same about a guy acting like Julia (and I've been happily married close to 20 years).

 

Anyway, I think Julia's kiss was different than the others not due to gender, but by her own admission.  When talking with Adam (I think) about his being kissed, he was clear with Julia that he backed off and told his wife right away.  Julia then kind of looked down and they shared a look that let Adam know that it was mutually initiated by Julia and Ed.  The writers painted the picture, not me ... and I'm surprised they have never addressed it.

 

As soon as Joel moved out, she was back over at Ed's house ... just her without the kids.  Here her husband is obviously wounded, and instead of showing any remorse or contrition, she is hanging out with other guys.  I don't care if she is having sex and I'm not calling her a slut ... just saying that she is exercising zero self-examination and trying to satisfy her own immediate needs, the hallmark traits of a young child before developing maturity.

 

The biggest slut in this show was Crosby, when he slept with the therapist after one fight, and then rightfully got kicked to the curb.  I cheered for Jasmine (her name?) then and I cheered for Joel when he had to take drastic measures to get through to Julia.  Julia could have thought, "Wow, I must have really hurt him to have forced him to move out ... let me figure out what that is about."  Instead, she acted like the dog from "Up"  .... "My husband just left out the front do ... hey, wonder if Ed is home!"