S08.E12: Death In Heaven

[random chance]

Was that wind-blowing movie The Happening? 

[elle]

The UNIT team weren't technically companions but they were pretty close.  But even during that time, the Doctor had a female companion who was his main companion.

 

Jamie was the Second Doctor's main companion and was with him in every serial except one but there was always a female companion.  Though in the beginning of the Troughton years, there were two male companions and one female.

 

The Fourth Doctor and Adric did share one serial together, as did The First Doctor and Steven.

 

A male companion with the Doctor would probably be a good change of pace but I doubt we'll see that.

Thanks for the background info!

 

If they, the writers, go back to a non romantic doctor then maybe we would see a male companion.  It would be nice to see a non contemporary Earthling or even an alien for a change.  Maybe Seb could be brought back for the role, since everyone else seems to be.

 

Was that wind-blowing movie The Happening? 

Yes, I think so.  We saw more people in that movie which made about as much sense as "Forest of the NIght", but there the trees were trying to save us in the Doctor Who episode!

[benteen]

Seb would be a fun choice for a companion.  I just hope whomever is chosen is someone different.

 

They've never had a non-humanoid as a companion on the show but the Fourth Doctor traveled with non-Earth companions for many years.

[SnideAsides]

Except for K-9.

[HauntedBathroom]

And Romana, and Kamelion, and Turlough.

[Ochan35]

 

If they, the writers, go back to a non romantic doctor then maybe we would see a male companion.  It would be nice to see a non contemporary Earthling or even an alien for a change.  Maybe Seb could be brought back for the role, since everyone else seems to be.

 

The whole thing with male companions is they are always paired with a female companion or the female companion is the "prime" companion.

 

For example:

Ian-Barbara,Susan, Vicki

Ben- Polly

Jamie-Ben and Polly, Victoria, Zoe

Harry- Sarah Jane

Jack- Rose, Martha

Mickey- Rose

and so on.

 

So far the only males not having a female companion in tow was Wilf (and technically he was connected to Donna) and Craig. Both those companions were specific to special episodes outside of the regular series. I'm not saying a male companion by himself isn't possible but it seems like the pattern of the series says otherwise. 

[Llywela]

The exception to that rule is Steven, who was the primary companion through most of season 3, with a variety of short-lived female companions coming and going alongside him and a spell as the solo companion.

 

I think my favourite scene in The Massacre might just be the Doctor and Steven landing in 16th century Paris and immediately finding a pub to have a quiet drink together while discussing their plans for the day!

 

Later in the '60s, although Jamie never had an adventure completely solo, he was similarly the primary companion with shorter-lived female companions coming and going. It was in the '70s that a solo female with an occasional secondary male at her side became the norm.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Llywela

[romantic idiot]

I'm taking this opportunity to reiterate my vote for Psi.

[eurekagirl mOo]

What bugs me is twice I've heard Clara tell the Doctor to "Do as you're told". What the fuck is that about? 

[alias1]

What bugs me is twice I've heard Clara tell the Doctor to "Do as you're told". What the fuck is that about? 

I so agree with this.  It's incredibly rude and disrespectful.  I almost could understand it the first time when she wanted to get the Doctor away from Gallifrey (although there would have been better ways to say that) but when she said it again in this episode it just grated on me.  But then, she also says "shut up" a lot.  Is this more normal in the UK?      

I'm taking this opportunity to reiterate my vote for Psi.

I was going to post the same thing!  I loved when the Doctor motioned to Psi to call him (behind Clara's back).

[Llywela]

I so agree with this.  It's incredibly rude and disrespectful.  I almost could understand it the first time when she wanted to get the Doctor away from Gallifrey (although there would have been better ways to say that) but when she said it again in this episode it just grated on me.  But then, she also says "shut up" a lot.  Is this more normal in the UK? 

No. She's just abominably rude.

[BizBuzz]

Finally saw this episode ... meh.

 

Except that my daughter and I shed a tear with the Brig saving Kate.  Moffat got us on that one.

[beeble]

Did anyone else catch that quick line where the Doctor asks the leader of UNIT how they knew what was going on, and the woman said "we got a tip from a woman with a Scottish accent." I thought that was perhaps a nod to Amy and Rory, but they'd have to be really old by now, right?

I wondered that myself…unless it was a previous Scottish companion whom i don't know about.

[beeble]

Doesn't Jenna Coleman have to show up now and then since she is The Impossible Girl? Her timeline is woven with The Doctor's and as long as he regenerates she'll be there to advise him somehow. Maybe just a Polaroid of her taped up on the TARDIS control center is all that they'll do. Nice knowing you, Clara.

 

I am heartbroken over Danny. Heartbroken!! I loved his sweetness and strength, and I wanted him to be the next companion.  He was my favorite out of the three main people.  

 

Hope to see Courtney, our beloved disruptive influence soon enough then.

 

I hope Zyborg Osgood was offed, not the real Osgood, otherwise I'm going to be awfully grumpy for a spell. 

 

Peter Capaldi has been great but he has been given some very fuzzy stuff to work with.  I'm not sure Moffat can really write dark AND likable.  I accept that every time the Doctor regenerates we get a whole new personality who remembers all of the stuff he is supposed to remember, once the kinks are sorted out, but Moffat spends soooooo much time hitting us over the head that THIS Doctor is not warm and cuddly, except for when he is.

 

Yay Nick Frost! WTF Santa? 

[AudienceofOne]

Did anyone else catch that quick line where the Doctor asks the leader of UNIT how they knew what was going on, and the woman said "we got a tip from a woman with a Scottish accent."

 

 

 

It was Missy. It was all Missy. It was part of her plan to have UNIT involved. The Doctor realises that when he finds out the Scottish woman tipped them off.

[mac123x]

What bugs me is twice I've heard Clara tell the Doctor to "Do as you're told". What the fuck is that about? 

 

I took it as evidence that Clara treats the Doctor like he's one of her students.  That's the kind of thing you say to a child when you want them to develop behavior problems.  So she's not just a bad companion; she's also a bad teacher.

 

I wondered that myself…unless it was a previous Scottish companion whom i don't know about.

 

I wondered what that meant too, until Missy started affecting a really OTT Scottish accent when she was talking to Osgood, then I figured she was the tipster.

 

ETA:  Missy's portrayal of the Master really pissed me off.  He was never. to use her words, "bananas".  Megalomaniac, evil, manipulative, silly sometimes, but never insane.  [He typed while giving the side-eye at "The End of Time"]

Edited November 12, 2014 by mac123x

[Llywela]

Doesn't Jenna Coleman have to show up now and then since she is The Impossible Girl? Her timeline is woven with The Doctor's and as long as he regenerates she'll be there to advise him somehow. Maybe just a Polaroid of her taped up on the TARDIS control center is all that they'll do. Nice knowing you, Clara.

Well, she's supposed to have been all through his past timeline yet I don't remember seeing her there. ;)

 

Anyway, we were told that her undoing of the GI's machinations were mostly subtle, so much so that the Doctor never even knew she was there apart from that couple of times with the 11th Doctor. So there's no reason he'd know she's there in later incarnations. It was an authorial gift to make her more important than anyone else anyway, so I'm comfortable ignoring it from now on!

 

She isn't gone, though, anyway. The cliffhanger hook for the Christmas special was all about her.

[Biosynth]

So, as a life long Who Fan (started at 15, I'm 48 now) I have to say, I felt a little let down by this ending (by the whole season, actually).  I was hoping for a Doctor with gravitas, not someone mean and impulsive. 

 

It's been my complaint for years (NuWho years) that the dialogue mainly consists of Shut up, Shut up and Shut up.  I'm sick off it.  And it will impact any future viewings of mine.

 

Also, Moffat and others have demolished my beloved Cybermen.  I think that out of all the original villains, they really dismantled them completely.  It's very sad, they were my favorites.  :(  I miss the Cybermen hubris that we saw in Earthshock and the like.  Each one had a personality, their inhibitor chips kept them from being sentimental, not completely devoid of will.

 

Also, I was hoping that the Doctor would take on a Cyberman Danny as a companion.  Ok, don't laugh!  In one of the graphic novels of Doctor #8 he had a cyberman companion named Telos.  Given enough time, exploring the emotions and all would have been great to develop over a season. 

 

I'm just tired of all the rushing about and the fast and insulting dialogue.  I'm ready for the Doctor to be the mysterious complicated person he used to be.  Someone who, after all the joking is put aside, is no one's fool and is actually quite serious and dangerous.

 

When I do write Fan fic, I like to write that kind of doctor.  And no one tells him to shut up.

[proserpina65]

Does anyone know if this is it for Clara?

 

I'm hoping, but judge from the little bit at the end with Santa and the preview for the Christmas episode, I'm not holding my breath.

I'm kind of pissed that Missy killed Osgood.  What the hell ?

 

I was digging the possibility that Osgood might replace Clara.  Oh well.  Maybe that was just the Zygon version of Osgood?

 

I liked some of the two part final (especially the callback to the Brig) and didn't like others (pretty much every mopey scene with Clara and Danny) but at least it was better than most of RTD's big multi-part episodes.

Edited November 12, 2014 by proserpina65

[proserpina65]

the Chaplet funeral home

 

It took me a moment to get the reference to Dodo, but when I did, I really loved it.

[Pattycake2]

Oh, my God!  They killed Osgood!  You bastards!

 

 

This.   So, Missy went up and down the Doctor's timeline and saw Clara being the Impossible girl and decided to get Clara and the Eleven together so that she could present Twelve with a dilemma?  Huh?

 

Andfercryingoutloud - Danny Pink is a decaying Cyberman and he's STILL berating the Doctor.      

[Toaster Strudel]

This.   So, Missy went up and down the Doctor's timeline and saw Clara being the Impossible girl and decided to get Clara and the Eleven together so that she could present Twelve with a dilemma?  Huh?    

 

That's what I understood, and it totally made no sense.  There is no other explanation? 

 

[Llywela]

Well, it's kind of a paradox, isn't it - Clara only became the Impossible Girl because Missy gave her the Doctor's phone number (selected apparently, if we are to believe Missy, specifically because of her obsessively control freak personality). Yet once she was the Impossible Girl, she became embedded in the Doctor's timestream, past and future, so could be spotted by anyone spying on said timestream. So which came first? Best not to ponder such imponderables!

[Toaster Strudel]

But since Clara always saved the Doctor in every incarnation (I'm new to the show), didn't Missy choose very poorly?

[Llywela]

But since Clara always saved the Doctor in every incarnation (I'm new to the show), didn't Missy choose very poorly?

Ah, see, you're making the mistake of attempting to apply logic to a Steven Moffat story arc. It doesn't pay to do that! Death in Heaven told us that Missy pushed Clara toward the Doctor because she believed a control freak would be able to push him into attempting to find the afterlife and therefore discovering the Nethersphere. It makes no sense whatsoever if you stop and think about it for even a handful of seconds, never mind apply logic. Just do what I'm doing and pretend this episode never happened.

 

Basically, Moffat story arcs are like impressionist paintings - they look good from a distance, but the moment you step close to examine the detail, you realise it's just a blurry mess.

 

Historically, though, the Master has always been torn between on the one hand wanting to destroy the Doctor to rid himself of his greatest opponent and wanting him to live because he enjoyed pitting his wits against said greatest opponent who was once a close friend, so that inner conflict has always been there. The original Master was sane, though - he was a very suave and sophisticated character, the Moriarty to the Doctor's Holmes - which the New Who Masters have not been.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Llywela

[HauntedBathroom]

Does anyone know if this is it for Clara?

 

Jenna Coleman has committed publicly to the Christmas special, but nothing beyond that.

[Toaster Strudel]

Jenna Coleman has committed publicly to the Christmas special, but nothing beyond that.

 

Thanks for the warning, I will studiously avoid this.

 

[LoneHaranguer]

 

Maybe that was just the Zygon version of Osgood?

I don't think they would have had her use her inhaler for the benefit of nobody but the viewers if they didn't want to establish that it was the original Osgood.

 

 

Historically, though, the Master has always been torn between on the one hand wanting to destroy the Doctor to rid himself of his greatest opponent and wanting him to live because he enjoyed pitting his wits against said greatest opponent who was once a close friend, so that inner conflict has always been there.

There were times when the Master would try to convince the Doctor that he should join him in ruling over the lesser beings of the universe (as Time lords should). Although I don't recall Missy overtly expressing that sort of elitism, it sounded like she was still on the same page.

[tarotx]

I think Missy's plan was she wants to travel time and space deciding the fates of all. Having fun with her little playthings. She more or less wants to be GOD even as far as creating the afterlife imprint.  She doesn't want to do it alone. But she doesn't want strong, dominating I like People Doctor but a dream version of him where he's used to following direction from a loud demanding control freak-ie someone like herself ;) So Basically she wanted the doctor to be with someone like her so that he would reach the point that he would understand that the Master and the Doctor were not that opposite. IE actual Murder and not just I didn't save him or nothing I could do like some of the other deaths this season. 

 

Or at least that is what I was getting out of the episode before they save the Boy. That Boy had to have come from an actual place. An actual afterlife that Missy had knowledge of where the dead can return from with the help of a magical bracelet. Though perhaps from an alternate reality. I mean that is how Buffy explained afterlife via childlike Ancient Anya. And Alternate realities are cannon on DW and would perhaps fit with Gallifrey being saved and so The Master. But that doesn't truly jive with the conversation that went along with the return of the boy. Though Maybe the Boy is just another way the master is trying to get the Doctor to understand the power a time travel has over time and space. You really can rule and shape it to fit your needs. Well if there isn't a goody two shoe Doctor foiling evil plots...

 

I wish I could just move on to the next episode. There was no time to wonder because more episodes to watch....

[Raingirlkm]

I don't think they would have had her use her inhaler for the benefit of nobody but the viewers if they didn't want to establish that it was the original Osgood.

Except Zygon Osgood used the inhaler too. The first thing she/it (does a Zygon's gender change to match the person they replicate? Do they even have genders?) does is reach down to take the inhaler from Osgood and complain about being  "defective."

 

Osgood's death was the first thing since the season opener that had any real emotional impact for me.

[LoneHaranguer]

 

Except Zygon Osgood used the inhaler too. The first thing she/it (does a Zygon's gender change to match the person they replicate? Do they even have genders?) does is reach down to take the inhaler from Osgood and complain about being  "defective."

Technically, you're correct, but I was thinking more of what would be presented on screen. Outside of the initial use to punctuate taking the inhaler, Zygon Osgood was never shown to use it; only the original Osgood did. It's not something you'd expect an alien to do, so without a plot twist to require it, the writers made it one of the ways you could tell them apart. They may have carried that over to this episode, although what you've said brings up the question of why the Zygon would have kept the "defective" form and gone to work for UNIT. If the answer is "it wouldn't", the inhaler is moot and it was definitely the human Osgood that got killed off.

[Cirien]

I wondered that myself…unless it was a previous Scottish companion whom i don't know about.

Nah. Missy has a Scottish accent. The doctor even says that the Mistress wanted to have audience when she destroyed the planet

[tv-talk]

the inhaler is moot and it was definitely the human Osgood that got killed off.

 

I think it was definitely the real Osgood who was killed but it doesnt matter because she'll be back at some point, somehow. I mean that's virtually a 100% certainty. There are no real consequences to anything in this era of the show.

[alias1]

I think it was definitely the real Osgood who was killed but it doesnt matter because she'll be back at some point, somehow. I mean that's virtually a 100% certainty. There are no real consequences to anything in this era of the show.

How true. 

[Eolivet]

So...Danny Pink's dead cyber-penis saved the world?

 

I think I preferred the "Tinkerbell Jesus" ending of (new Who) season 3. At least Martha did some actual work besides hug/fly/go boom.

[Ringthane]

I think it was definitely the real Osgood who was killed but it doesnt matter because she'll be back at some point, somehow. I mean that's virtually a 100% certainty. There are no real consequences to anything in this era of the show.

 

Now that would be a cool idea - what if the Zygon version was still out there somewhere, and joins up with UNIT/becomes the companion? 

 

Of course, this is Moffatt we're talking about, so...

The exception to that rule is Steven, who was the primary companion through most of season 3, with a variety of short-lived female companions coming and going alongside him and a spell as the solo companion.

 

I think my favourite scene in The Massacre might just be the Doctor and Steven landing in 16th century Paris and immediately finding a pub to have a quiet drink together while discussing their plans for the day!

 

Later in the '60s, although Jamie never had an adventure completely solo, he was similarly the primary companion with shorter-lived female companions coming and going. It was in the '70s that a solo female with an occasional secondary male at her side became the norm.

 

I remember the reason they had a younger male companion in the first place was so they had someone who could handle the physical stuff Hartnell couldn't.  Once Pertwee took over, he was capable of doing it himself and there was no longer a need for one.  Although why they couldn't just have male companions like they did female ones, I don't know.  I believe they had more female than male ones to get the male viewers watching.

Edited November 18, 2014 by Ringthane

[Llywela]

Now that would be a cool idea - what if the Zygon version was still out there somewhere, and joins up with UNIT/becomes the companion? 

That would involve a big retcon of how Zygons work, as they have to keep the original alive in order to maintain the body print, so the Zygon who impersonated Osgood should not be able to maintain the form with the original dead. Of course, I'm still uncomfortable with the idea of any settlement being drawn up that involved Zygons remaining on Earth and impersonating humans, since they can't just invent a human form, they have to have an original to copy, which according to the anniversary episode doesn't just mean a physical copy but also involves a gross violation of their consciousness, stealing their thoughts and memories - plus would be open to all kinds of fraud and abuse. I prefer to believe that UNIT's stash of alien tech was used to help the Zygon refugees leave Earth in search of a new home.

[tv-talk]

I believe they had more female than male ones to get the male viewers watching.

 

 

Absolutely, that has been one constant of the show, Companion eye candy. As a 12yr old I was absolutely nuts over Leela and some of the outfits they had her wear, Romana too. Of course both were actually great Companions in their own right, which in hindsight was the best part. However Rose, Martha, Amy, and now Clara...all very easy on the eyes and it's no coincidence. Actually a lovely thing about Donna is fact she was a more "average" person as far as looks are concerned.

[Starchild]

I guess we'll start seeing more male companions when the Doctor regenerates as female. Or maybe they'll stick with female companions to up the fantasy factor.

[Bel]

 

Hope to see Courtney, our beloved disruptive influence soon enough then.

With the emergency protocols now in place, will this be how we see Courtney as President, then?

 

I loved clever Clara - the Dalek Oswin and the one who startled the Doctor by saying that the TARDIS was "smaller on the outside" - and have been really disappointed with her this season (have seen only glimpses of it such as in the Flatlines one). I have also struggled with the grumpier Doctor (though I love Capaldi). The scene at the end though, with the two of them lying to each other fit both of how these characters have been this season, so I must accept that the characterisation has been deliberate. I just don't understand why lying has been a theme this season.

 

This Doctor saying "Shut up" a lot (and I'm sure there was a bit in the episode where the cut off Capaldi about to swear), I take as a nod to that show Capaldi's on where he swears a lot!

 

Missy turned out much better than I was fearing! She was entertaining. But why oh why oh why did they not strip her naked and imprison her in a cell on the plane? Idiots!

Edited November 19, 2014 by Bel

[LoneHaranguer]

 

Missy turned out much better than I was fearing! She was entertaining. But why oh why oh why did they not strip her naked and imprison her in a cell on the plane? Idiots!

The Master was skilled at hypnosis. Presumably as Missy, she still is, and talked her way out of being searched. Not ordering up some sort of cell was dumb. Even if she might have been able to avoid being put in it, one should have been there.

[angora]

It took me a while to realize just how twisted the Master's plan is in this episode.  A lot of posters have already discussed the head-trip of giving the Doctor his own personal Cyber-army of justice, as well as the perverse aim of "getting her friend back" by dragging him down to her level.  But after thinking more about the episode, I kept getting hung up on the fact that the consciousnesses from the Nethersphere were cherry-picked across the Doctor's timeline (mostly - she probably picked up the little boy after she realized she could get to the Doctor through Clara through Danny.)  While the bodies are whatever was on hand on Earth at the time, the minds are from the past and present all over the universe, and they're all from the Doctor's adventures.  And not just Twelve, either - case in point, Brigadier.  So, her gift of a mindlessly-obeying, killer Cyber-army is populated entirely by loved ones the Doctor has lost, people he failed to save, people who died because of his mistakes, or people who gave their lives for him.  How sick is that?  I love it for how terrible it is.  Although people keep making noise about Twelve being cold and callous, the Master's plan goes straight for the emotional jugular.

[henripootel]

Edited because there was one other thing that really really pissed me off. Brigadier Lethbridge Stewart as a Cyberman. Fuck you, Moffatt. No, really.

I'm not gonna dispute that.  Be lying if I said I didn't tear up though.  Sad to say but Moffat is both the best and worst thing that ever happened to this show, in nearly equal measure.

My question after watching this season is: does Moffat even like the Doctor?

 

Not sure about that but I think he has a certain contempt for us.

[Llywela]

I'm not gonna dispute that.  Be lying if I said I didn't tear up though.  Sad to say but Moffat is both the best and worst thing that ever happened to this show, in nearly equal measure. Not sure about that but I think he has a certain contempt for us.

I didn't tear up. A lot of people, people I respect, seem to have thought that moment was a wonderful tribute to the Brigadier, but that's only true at the most superficial level. For one thing, it retcons the character, who, if you go back and actually watch his adventures, did not hanker for a salute from the Doctor. He'd have liked for the Doctor to respect him as a military leader a bit more, but he never wanted nor expected a salute from him, any more than he did from Liz Shaw or any other civilian working under him. No, this is fairly typical of the Moffat-era - a supposedly emotional pay-off to something that appears to be tied in with long-term continuity but is actually only ever even alluded to in this one episode - a bit like the Doctor suddenly needing a new regeneration cycle.

 

For another thing, while on the surface, all caught up in the emotion of the episode, it might look like a nice little tribute to have the Doctor salute a kind of avatar of the Brigadier, the moment you start to think about what it actually means, that nice little tribute turns into absolute horror. This wonderful character, who was such a stalwart ally of the Doctor for so many years - and not just in Moffat terms, where he simply tells us in passing that 200 years have passed between episodes and oh look he's still going back to that same companion, but in actual terms, clocking up appearances as guest, regular and recurring star over 20 years and about five different regenerations. To take that character, who spent more than 20 years of his career and most of his retirement fighting alien evil, and then tell us that when he died he had his consciousness harvested and spent years being psychologically tortured in an attempt to persuade him to delete his own emotions, and was then downloaded into the body of a Cyberman - one of the very creatures he'd fought against so valiantly...how can anyone see that as anything less than horrific?

 

And then to add to that, if we are to accept the basic premise of this episode as true, we must also accept that everyone else the Doctor has ever known and loved also had that same horrific fate, since Missy did claim to have been up and down his timeline harvesting souls. Which is, of course, a preposterous notion even before you consider that one of the souls we saw harvested was a robot who didn't even have a soul - the Doctor is thousands of years old, it's taken him 13 regenerations to have the adventures he's had and meet the people he's met, there's no way in the universe Missy had either the time or attention span to collect them all, so again I am confirmed in my belief that this was the most ludicrous and appalling episode of Doctor Who I have ever seen. Plenty of others have been preposterous before it, but none have ever been so on a scale that had such horrific implications for the whole of the rest of the show and everyone who has ever been in it.

 

Sigh. Sorry about the rant. I saw red again - apparently I am not over this, even now!

Edited December 12, 2014 by Llywela

[LiveenLetLive]

 

Actually a lovely thing about Donna is fact she was a more "average" person as far as looks are concerned.

Loved Donna dearly, just was watching "The Library" again--now that was a great story arc. One thing I found sort of sad-funny was how many times the writers emphasised that absolutely, positively Donna and the Doctor weren't an "item" (Donna was too plain? or too old--despite the fact that she and Tenant are about the same age.) Casting Tate was the best idea that Moffat ever had.

 

And speaking of watching Tenant again, sorry I simply do not like Capaldi as the Doctor, it isn't just that he is older than the last 3 Doctors, it is also that Capaldi looks so frail to me.

[Llywela]

Casting Tate was the best idea that Moffat ever had.

It wasn't Moffat who casted Tate. Donna belongs to the Davies era. But yes, it is a shame they felt the need to keep stressing over and over that the pair weren't romantically involved. It's been a shame throughout the new Who era that every single Doctor-female companion relationship has been defined, repeatedly, in romantic terms, instead of simply letting them be.

Edited December 13, 2014 by Llywela

[LiveenLetLive]

Davies era eh? Yeah that makes sense, I suppose that Moffet wouldn't cast Tate or similar, judging by the companions that are his...on the other hand Davies was responsible for the putrid Rose-Doctor "romance" arc, because an ageless alien wouldn't be able to resist the attractions of a modern day teenager. Then again, maybe I am being unfair to Moffet because I actually adored Alex Kingston.

Edited December 14, 2014 by LiveenLetLive

[Rhetorica]

I just watched the whole series on demand. The Doctor grew on me. He is taking his time developing. I'm not sure what his personality will be, which is good because it keeps me guessing. He's very brash. And if I remember correctly, he's the one who told Clara to, "Do as you're told!" first. I assumed she was just parroting him. I'm on board for the ride. I'll never give up on Doctor Who.

[ketose]

It's ironic that when the Classic Who was on BBC, it was considered a children's show. It's more childish now that it's allowed to be more adult.

[Blue Castle]

Finally caught up with series 8 (still haven't seen the x-mas special, though).  This is the first time since I started watching DW in 2008 that I didn't instantly watch episodes as soon as possible.  I caught the first few Capaldi eps and then my life got in the way, but more than that I just wasn't that interested.  This makes me sad because I used to be obsessed with this show.

 

Anyway, so after watching episodes 4-12 over the past few days, I have to say the show was better than I'd been expecting.  (It's always easy to be more forgiving when you're binge watching, though).  It was surprising (and funny) to read the comments in this thread because I had no idea Clara was so disliked...so intensely.  I actually liked her a lot more in series 8 than in series 7 because at least she had a personality in this series.  She was a cipher in series 7--I had no idea who that woman was.  In series 8 I thought she was much more fleshed out--and while she wasn't always likable, she did at least seem like a person. 

 

I think in order for me to watch/like this show I have to "watch around Moffat"--I have to grasp the themes and ignore all his bullshit dialog and irritating quirks.  He's always going to think that smug shouty-ness equals "strong female character"--that's a given.  He's fond of romance and couple-dom and he LOVES having the guy sacrifice everything for the girl while said guy is also part-robot (at least Danny is cuter than Rory).  He also likes having the men be "smarter" about the Doctor than the women--and for them to know what's in their girlfriend's best interests.  If I ignore all of this (plus a lot of other annoying stuff) there's a story in series 8 about Clara making the Doctor more human and the Doctor making her more time lord.  They have this weird co-dependent, borderline unhealthy relationship that's pretty interesting.  And I sort of like that story--especially how it ends with the two of them lying identically and walking away alone.  It wasn't an uplifting season--and it was very weird to dislike the Doctor in most of the episodes--but this season did seem far more  emotionally cohesive than series 6 or 7.