S01.E07: Penguin's Umbrella

[DigitalCount]

A few thoughts on my end:

 

Pre-signed warrants are a pretty scary and unconstitutional thing. I don't know if the show wants to think us that in what he thinks are his last moments he is willing to take a trip to the dark side, or if it is just supposed to be handwaved that GCPD literally has a stack of blank checks to arrest whoever they want as something that's necessary for plot purposes. Judge Bam-Bam probably should watch his back, because even temporarily inconveniencing the Mayor and Falcone can't be good for his health.

 

This, absolutely. I was like, "wow, freaking Gotham." I burst out laughing when this happened, but I know it's just another level of complete corruption in this city. The fact that they have a freaking stack of them is the most messed up thing. This isn't a one-time-use golden ticket, it's just business as usual. I guess they use those for the people that no one would dare sign off on arresting.

 

Loved the Mayor peacing out as soon as Falcone mentioned killing.

 

I actually have a different take on Barbara coming back for Jim than what I've seen thus far. She knew he was going to die (and really, he absolutely would have if Ozzie hadn't had Falcone's ear). She probably cares about changing the world in an abstract sense, but she cares more deeply for her beloved. Yes, she was leverage, but maybe that was part of her calculation here (if Jim has to back down, then maybe they can both survive). It would have been super heartless and ignorant for her (who is unaware that Gordon is the lead on an action crime thriller) to just take off and let him die alone, not to mention that the posts here would have been talking about agency rather than brains had she just dutifully followed Jim's instructions. Jim may have been willing to sacrifice himself, but she was not willing to sacrifice him, and his choice to do so would have hurt her too.

 

Nothing needs to be said about the Penguin, his performance and writing speak for themselves.

 

Didn't mind Fish, but then again I mostly enjoy her (and envy Nico/Will Smith).

 

Falcone's a lot smarter than the upstarts seem to realize.

 

LOVED the scene where Jim is introducing Montoya and Allen to Bruce and Alfred. I hope Allen's not dirty, but we've seen more behind the curtain for Montoya and we know she's a good woman (if a bit misguided sometimes). Here's hoping he's just a simple guy who wants to catch the crooks.

 

Essen and Bullock are both relatable, even though they're technically dirty, and I like that. That facial expression Jim had when he realized he'd need to buy a new bed tho.

 

Favorite thus far.

[Milz]

Barbara is an aggressively stupid person. WTF was she thinking?

 

 

 

She wasn't thinking. I've given up on Dumbara: she's become the stereotypical annoying girlfriend. The less she's on the screen the better, imo.

[rho]

This was a solid episode. Loved the Cobblepot/Falcone reveal at the end. My only gripe with the show is that the direction is scattered. Looking back, Selina Kyle's episode did nothing to move the plot forward and now feels like the random Rafi/Dirty Randy episodes The League occasionally throws in mid season, except this isn't a comedy. At first it came off like a procedural program and now it's been serialized. I think we could have done without peppering Poison Ivy and Catwoman throughout the first few episodes unless they're going to bring them back in a HUGE way at the end of the season. And I've started FFwd through Barbara's scenes. The writers need to step up her character or kill her off.

 

On a side note, it sounds like every male adult in Gotham suffers from a serious case of Christian Bale voice. Maybe Dr. Leslie (or whoever Mekia Cox is supposed to be playing) should have examined Jim for laryngitis while he was out.

Edited November 4, 2014 by rho

[RealityGal]

Few quick points to add:

 

1. Pre-signed warrants are a pretty scary and unconstitutional thing. I don't know if the show wants to think us that in what he thinks are his last moments he is willing to take a trip to the dark side, or if it is just supposed to be handwaved that GCPD literally has a stack of blank checks to arrest whoever they want as something that's necessary for plot purposes. Judge Bam-Bam probably should watch his back, because even temporarily inconveniencing the Mayor and Falcone can't be good for his health.

I think the show wanted us to believe that Gordon was willing to break the rules in order to get shit done.  I think that cops can now get telephonic warrants, so I'm not sure if the pre-signed warrants were something to facilitate that, like you contact the judge, give him the facts that you think support probable cause, he says okay, and you then fill in the pre-signed warrant.  Of course, no one at GCPD got the warrants to save time, they got them so they could just fill them in and get around the rules.  And I'm sure the judge gave them the pre-signed warrants knowing that they were just going to fill them in, but ostensibly I think he might argue that he gave them the pre-signed warrants with the thought that they were going to call first.

[MaryMitch]

Don't know if anyone else caught it, but at the beginning when Butch was in Barbara's apartment, at one point he said to Gordon "Slow down, Hoss." Drew Powell, who plays Butch, was "Hoss Cartwright" in the show "Ponderosa", which was a 2001 prequel to "Bonanza".

[Chicago Redshirt]

Not to go too deep here for non-attorneys, but the idea behind warrants is that someone is going to stand up in front of a judge and swear to facts that amount to probable cause that a crime has been committed.

 

We didn't see Gordon attempt to convince anyone that he had probable cause. Which is good, because he really doesn't. 

 

In this case, Gordon has nothing even close to those facts about Falcone or the mayor in connection with the Wayne murders, as far as I can remember. At best, he could make out a case against Fish, since she supplied the tip that Pepper was guilty and had a pearl necklace. (I can't remember if after the fact she told Gordon or the MCU folks in so many words that the pearl necklace found at the Pepper home wasn't really the Waynes). But there's nothing to tie Falcone to any conspiracy other than it's known that she works for Falcone, and I think Falcone may have said something along the lines of "people would get restless if the murder weren't solved." There's nothing conceivably tie Mayor Kind to the Wayne murders or a conspiracy to frame Pepper.

 

Putting aside the fact that Falcone presumably has numerous judges in his pockets and high-priced attorneys on his payroll, even Lionel Hutz would be able to get him out of anything having to do with this. 

 

What's funny is that Gordon didn't try to take Falcone down for any of the things that he could prove (at least to the probable cause standard), such as having Zzaszz shooting up a precinct and killing a cop shortly after he announced to the room that he works for Falcone. 

[Trini]

This was a solid episode. Loved the Cobblepot/Falcone reveal at the end. My only gripe with the show is that the direction is scattered. Looking back, Selina Kyle's episode did nothing to move the plot forward ....

Yeah, after this, I don't know if we can go back to an episode like "Balloonman".

 

 

On a side note, it sounds like every male adult in Gotham suffers from a serious case of Christian Bale voice. Maybe Dr. Leslie (or whoever Mekia Cox is supposed to be playing) should have examined Jim for laryngitis while he was out.

Nah. Person of Interest totally has "Batman voice" syndrome, though. ;-)

 

But speaking of Dr. Thompkins, it looks like Mekia was supposed to be her (that how she was listed in the press release), but now the producers got the actress they were holding out for. So "Leslie Thompkins" isn't in the credits, and they didn't mention her name in the episode.

[benteen]

I noticed Gordon was using a typewriter to type up those warrants.

[Camera One]

This was the episode where everything came to a head, but it was the first episode I didn't like that much.  The shock twist of Penguin's true allegiance at the end was interesting, but other than that... 

 

I just couldn't buy into Gordon's plan at all.  There was no way arresting Falcone and the Mayor could work, or end well.  The justice system is clearly corrupt, and everyone looks the other way.  Of course Gordon wasn't going to die.  So to me, it felt like an episode with a foregone conclusion where somehow, Gordon would be allowed to continue working as if nothing had happened.

 

I thought it was weird that Gordon would go visit the Wayne Manor in the middle of the episode.  They had been using Bruce/Alfred well, but it just didn't feel natural in this one. 

 

Color me surprised, but Montoya could still be salvagable.  I liked that she and her partner saved Gordon.  Now Barbara on the other hand... hopefully, the events in this episode moves her character in a new direction.  

 

I'm still not a huge fan of the violence.  I guess the bad guys being killed didn't bother me, but the killing of the female police officer did since she was an innocent bystander.  I did find Oswald killing the henchman of Maroni satisfying though.

[caseylane]

he would've gotten away with it if Barbara wasn't an idiot. She's useless. She's not worthless like Laurel Lance over on Arrow, but she's a little too close to there.

 

This is sad (but true) in so many ways.

 

I have become a huge fan of Cobblepot, huge. I find him every bit as interesting as Gordon. As far as Gordon, I think his only real weakness is his love for Barbara, I just wish I liked her more. I've been a fan of Donal Logue since Life and was excited to see him on this show. Thank goodness it's lasting more than one season.

Edited November 5, 2014 by caseylane

[shapeshifter]

...I just couldn't buy into Gordon's plan at all.  There was no way arresting Falcone and the Mayor could work, or end well....

It seemed like a simple martyrdom to me. I don't know what the odds are of success of Gordon's sacrificing himself to start a movement, but that seemed to be his plan. Hmmm. Now that I'm typing that out loud, I guess the writers thought Barbara was doing the same. I guess they both expected to die.

...I'm still not a huge fan of the violence.  I guess the bad guys being killed didn't bother me, but the killing of the female police officer did since she was an innocent bystander.  I did find Oswald killing the henchman of Maroni satisfying though.

There was an awful lot of violence for a comic book based show that airs as early as 7p.m. in two time zones. The warning screen that flashed at the beginning seemed to have an extra warning beyond the usual, but it flashed too quickly for me to read. It was the same screen and voice they used for Fringe--but with more violence to caution about, I guess.

[MisterGlass]

 

The Penguin's machinations are risky but brilliant. I almost think that he purposely got caught snitching just so he could talk to the big boss.

 

I don't think he did it intentionally, but once he was caught he made the right move in going for broke.  Oz has messed up a couple of times now - in front of Falcone and Maroni - but he recovers well, which is as important to his survival as the good decisions he makes.  How he tries to recover ground with Fish will be interesting to see.

 

Taylor reminds me a bit of Brad Dourif.

[RealityGal]

Not to go too deep here for non-attorneys, but the idea behind warrants is that someone is going to stand up in front of a judge and swear to facts that amount to probable cause that a crime has been committed.

 

We didn't see Gordon attempt to convince anyone that he had probable cause. Which is good, because he really doesn't. 

 

In this case, Gordon has nothing even close to those facts about Falcone or the mayor in connection with the Wayne murders, as far as I can remember. At best, he could make out a case against Fish, since she supplied the tip that Pepper was guilty and had a pearl necklace. (I can't remember if after the fact she told Gordon or the MCU folks in so many words that the pearl necklace found at the Pepper home wasn't really the Waynes). But there's nothing to tie Falcone to any conspiracy other than it's known that she works for Falcone, and I think Falcone may have said something along the lines of "people would get restless if the murder weren't solved." There's nothing conceivably tie Mayor Kind to the Wayne murders or a conspiracy to frame Pepper.

 

Putting aside the fact that Falcone presumably has numerous judges in his pockets and high-priced attorneys on his payroll, even Lionel Hutz would be able to get him out of anything having to do with this. 

 

What's funny is that Gordon didn't try to take Falcone down for any of the things that he could prove (at least to the probable cause standard), such as having Zzaszz shooting up a precinct and killing a cop shortly after he announced to the room that he works for Falcone. 

 

I'm only in law school, but I thought I remembered the availability of telephonic warrants from Constitutional Criminal Procedure.  I agree that he probably didn't have anything even approaching probable cause, but just for the judge to cover his own ass, I'm thinking he may have given them the "pre-signed" warrants under the guise of actually having them call in first with their facts to support probable cause, knowing full well that it was pretty much just giving them a blank ticket to arrest people as they pleased.  Although, if I remember correctly (and I may not) you didn't actually need an arrest warrant to arrest someone, you would just need to present them to a judge and show probable cause within a relatively quick time frame (like 48 hours or something?)

It seemed like a simple martyrdom to me. I don't know what the odds are of success of Gordon's sacrificing himself to start a movement, but that seemed to be his plan. Hmmm. Now that I'm typing that out loud, I guess the writers thought Barbara was doing the same. I guess they both expected to die.

 

I could see Gordon thinking he had about an 85/15 chance of dying, but just wanting to start a movement in Gotham.  Barbara however, I think she thought that she could honestly and sweetly appeal to Falcone's inner good side, maybe flash a smile and talk real nice and he would just see the error of his ways.

[Kromm]

Notice our timeline on the show is even MORE screwed up.  We had some actual music in it we can set a date to in the episode (with various props around that predate that song by decades, so go figure).

Edited November 5, 2014 by Kromm

[Danielg342]

I actually have a different take on Barbara coming back for Jim than what I've seen thus far. She knew he was going to die (and really, he absolutely would have if Ozzie hadn't had Falcone's ear). She probably cares about changing the world in an abstract sense, but she cares more deeply for her beloved. Yes, she was leverage, but maybe that was part of her calculation here (if Jim has to back down, then maybe they can both survive). It would have been super heartless and ignorant for her (who is unaware that Gordon is the lead on an action crime thriller) to just take off and let him die alone, not to mention that the posts here would have been talking about agency rather than brains had she just dutifully followed Jim's instructions. Jim may have been willing to sacrifice himself, but she was not willing to sacrifice him, and his choice to do so would have hurt her too.

 

I would have bought that if we'd seen in some previous episode Barbara actually displaying the smarts and toughness that would be required to deal with someone like Carmine Falcone. As much as I agree that "agency" gets overused, even in this episode, this is clearly an agency issue.

 

To wit, so far in the series Barbara has done nothing that doesn't relate to Gordon in some way. To my knowledge, she's had only one scene where she wasn't with Gordon (the one with Montoya and the awkward kiss), and most of what she does is done with the kind of vulnerable, "please save me now" vibe clearly meant to portray her as Gordon's damsel to be saved (I also think Erin Richards doesn't help the issue much with her acting choices). Furthermore, when she does try to do things on her own to help Gordon- such as calling the newspaper on that tip- it winds up blowing up in her face. She's purported to be this strong, independent woman but I don't see any of evidence of that on the show itself. She seems to need Gordon to help her out with everything, and the show insists on hitting me on the head over and over again with it, which is incredibly nauseating.

 

This is why Barbara's attempt with Falcone rang hollow- the show only did it for one reason, and that was so Gordon would (again) have to come to her rescue. At least when it came to Gordon and Bullock it was somewhat believable that they stood a chance against Falcone since we've seen how smart they can be, but Barbara? Not even once has she been portrayed as smart or clever, so her meeting Falcone meant only doom for her.

 

Honestly, if the show keeps up this schtick with its women characters- making them all idealized, "male fantasy versions" of women instead of actual, real, believable women- I don't know how long I'll stay. It's 2014- we shouldn't have meaningless women on TV anymore, let alone meaningless "anyone".

[immortalfrieza]

Yep, thats exactly what I thought.  I knew she was gonna come back and try to be a savior.  The minute I saw her face on the window of that bus, I just knew it.  I didn't think she would be stupid enough to go to Falcone's house, but I knew it was going to be something, I knew she was going to become a liability.  I'm annoyed by it, but will work to simply accept that she is going to be the consummate damsel in distress.

Same here, but I'm more annoyed by how unnecessary making Barbara into a near shoo in for the T.V. moron of the year awards was. They could have simply had Falcone send some of his men to collect her and then had the mansion scene happen anyway, WITHOUT making Barbara look completely brainless.

 

In fact, I think with just about every episode of this show so far somebody has to be complete idiot otherwise the plot is dead, and quite a few were just as unnecessary as Barbara's here. Look writers, I get it, sometimes you have to make one or more characters into idiots in order for the plot to be able to happen, but the key word there is sometimes. It's bad and lazy writing if you have to have them do it all the damned time like the Gotham writers are and when the same plot could still play out without having any character having to be an idiot.

I actually have a different take on Barbara coming back for Jim than what I've seen thus far. She knew he was going to die (and really, he absolutely would have if Ozzie hadn't had Falcone's ear). She probably cares about changing the world in an abstract sense, but she cares more deeply for her beloved. Yes, she was leverage, but maybe that was part of her calculation here (if Jim has to back down, then maybe they can both survive). It would have been super heartless and ignorant for her (who is unaware that Gordon is the lead on an action crime thriller) to just take off and let him die alone, not to mention that the posts here would have been talking about agency rather than brains had she just dutifully followed Jim's instructions. Jim may have been willing to sacrifice himself, but she was not willing to sacrifice him, and his choice to do so would have hurt her too.

That might actually have merit except that Barbara is VERY lucky things turn out like they did. If this was real life instead of TV land where everybody has plot armor Barbara would have been infinitely more likely to get herself and Gordon killed by coming back than what happened in this episode. There's absolutely nothing on her end that can justify Barbara coming back and especially heading straight to Falcone like she did.

 

What does it say about the GCPD that a shady guy not only brazenly walks into their HQ, gets on a desk, and tells them to leave the room?

This is why I simply cannot buy the idea that Gordon would stick around and try to pull Gotham city out of decadence. A person tries to fix something only because they think there's a chance in hell something can be done, and scenes like that only make the fact that Gotham is completely and utterly hopeless all the more obvious. I know this is "your city and your father's city" Gordon, but there comes a time when you have to realize that the horse is dead and to move on.

 

Now, maybe if the writers throw in some flashback scenes showing that Gotham was once a normal city with lots of good people and good cops at one point then made a slow slide into decadence I could buy Gordon trying to bring his idyllic little city back, but as it is it's just completely unbelievable.

Edited November 5, 2014 by immortalfrieza

[shapeshifter]

Notice our timeline on the show is even MORE screwed up.  We had some actual music in it we can set a date to in the episode (with various props around that predate that song by decades, so go figure).

Maybe because I'm old enough to have seen style changes over decades, I'm enjoying the picking and choosing of retro signifiers. Jim's sideburns could indicate the 70s, but they're also making a comeback now. It also reminds me of the alternate universe from Fringe. If the show gains in popularity, I hope eventually they'll feel bold enough to have someone pay for something with dollars showing the face of Martin Luther King Jr. I can't recall if they called them "Kings" or "Martins" on Fringe. Edited November 5, 2014 by shapeshifter

[Chicago Redshirt]

The idea behind a telephonic warrant, as I understand it, is that there are circumstances where it would be awkward to go through the formality of having a written affidavit and meeting in person with a judge, where things may or may not rise all the way to exigent circumstances. Even in such a case, you are supposed to go over the case for probable cause with the judge and then s/he would sign off on a warrant. What was presented in the latest episode wasn't like that.

 

Yes, a cop could hypothetically arrest people without a warrant. But an arrest warrant entitles the cop to go in a person's home or business to effect the arrest, as Gordon and Bullock did.

 

To wit, so far in the series Barbara has done nothing that doesn't relate to Gordon in some way. To my knowledge, she's had only one scene where she wasn't with Gordon (the one with Montoya and the awkward kiss), and most of what she does is done with the kind of vulnerable, "please save me now" vibe clearly meant to portray her as Gordon's damsel to be saved (I also think Erin Richards doesn't help the issue much with her acting choices). Furthermore, when she does try to do things on her own to help Gordon- such as calling the newspaper on that tip- it winds up blowing up in her face. She's purported to be this strong, independent woman but I don't see any of evidence of that on the show itself. She seems to need Gordon to help her out with everything, and the show insists on hitting me on the head over and over again with it, which is incredibly nauseating.

This is why Barbara's attempt with Falcone rang hollow- the show only did it for one reason, and that was so Gordon would (again) have to come to her rescue. At least when it came to Gordon and Bullock it was somewhat believable that they stood a chance against Falcone since we've seen how smart they can be, but Barbara? Not even once has she been portrayed as smart or clever, so her meeting Falcone meant only doom for her.

 

Barbara has had at least two other scenes without Gordon but with Montoya: one was early on and a "Jim's not a good guy" discussion in Barbara's apartment, and the other was a "Jim's not a good guy and he's going down so you better get rid of him" on the steps of GCPD or the courthouse or whatever that's supposed to be. Not that that changes anything, because Barbara still doesn't have much of an existence beyond Gordon (and Montoya).

 

Although it was inevitable that she would be damseled (and will be again in the future), this episode marked the first time she was explicitly in danger. (Penguin's visit had the implicit message that she was in danger).

 

Also let's be clear about one thing: Gordon and Bullock did not stand a chance against Falcone and they knew it. They were dead men walking, and I think both explicitly said this. They just figured since they had nothing to lose, they might as well just see what happened if they tried to arrest the mayor and Falcone. Maybe Falcone's people would kill them and make martyrs of them, maybe the arrests would at least wake Gotham up. But there was no scenario where they lock up Falcone and the mayor up and walk away winners.

 

There is a thin line between foolishness and bravery. I think with better writing/acting, Barbara's coming back would have seemed less foolish, more brave. If we had seen Barbara coming back or pleading with Falcone, or not even pleading but arguing/demanding. Coming face to face to Gotham's biggest crime boss is seen as a brave thing in Gordon and Bullock's case. Barbara did it without the benefit of a gun or a badge to offer any protection.

 

We don't get enough of her thinking and reasoning for coming back. Just her not wanting to leave Jim. Which again comes back to the writing/acting. I love my wife, but if she told me "Get out of town, because that's the only way you can be safe and the only way I can do what I need to do" and there was an obvious and credible threat to her well-being and mine, I'd leave. It would be hard to not look back, but then again, I have the benefit of not being as naive as Barbara is.

[Sofie Fatale]

I noticed Gordon was using a typewriter to type up those warrants.

There was also 80's music I think for Barbara's cell. A clue as to the time period perhaps...

[Danielg342]

Also let's be clear about one thing: Gordon and Bullock did not stand a chance against Falcone and they knew it. They were dead men walking, and I think both explicitly said this. They just figured since they had nothing to lose, they might as well just see what happened if they tried to arrest the mayor and Falcone. Maybe Falcone's people would kill them and make martyrs of them, maybe the arrests would at least wake Gotham up. But there was no scenario where they lock up Falcone and the mayor up and walk away winners.

 

There is a thin line between foolishness and bravery. I think with better writing/acting, Barbara's coming back would have seemed less foolish, more brave. If we had seen Barbara coming back or pleading with Falcone, or not even pleading but arguing/demanding. Coming face to face to Gotham's biggest crime boss is seen as a brave thing in Gordon and Bullock's case. Barbara did it without the benefit of a gun or a badge to offer any protection.

 

You make some good points. Perhaps what I meant is that, given how the writing has gone in this show, if I had to send Barbara or Gordon/Bullock against Falcone, Gordon/Bullock stood a better chance, since we've at least seen that they have some capabilities whereas Barbara has shown no strengths at all. I agree that the detectives too were likely toast.

 

I'd also agree that with better writing that Barbara's actions could have been brave. Perhaps if she found a way to snake out of her apartment and escape Butch (not impossible- it is her apartment after all, she'd known it better than her invaders) it would sell her bravery a bit more, because at least she got the upper hand on someone for a change without needing Gordon's help. After escaping, she could have been the one to go to Gordon to plead with him to leave, with Gordon turning things on her and saying, "you go. I need to stay". Then perhaps Barbara saying "no, I'm staying because that's what a fiance does" it could ring true, because then it would provide the opportunity for Gordon to see her unflappable loyalty, gain confidence from it and see that she just might have the ability to fend for herself. Then an encounter with Falcone doesn't seem so foolish, because then we get the sense that she'd have a small possibility of getting out of there unscathed.

 

So who wants to bet that one of the things Gordon says to Barbara next week is, "why did you do that? You could have gotten hurt!" *rolls eyes* Sometimes I think if it weren't for Bullock and the Penguin (and Falcone, too) I probably would have bailed from this series and its poor treatment of women.

[shapeshifter]

...There is a thin line between foolishness and bravery. I think with better writing/acting, Barbara's coming back would have seemed less foolish, more brave....

We don't get enough of her thinking and reasoning for coming back. Just her not wanting to leave Jim. Which again comes back to the writing/acting....

Yes, this. Maybe she thought she could buy him? Isn't she supposed to be fabulously wealthy? But, if that was her motive, we saw none of it--making her look foolish.

[RealityGal]

The idea behind a telephonic warrant, as I understand it, is that there are circumstances where it would be awkward to go through the formality of having a written affidavit and meeting in person with a judge, where things may or may not rise all the way to exigent circumstances. Even in such a case, you are supposed to go over the case for probable cause with the judge and then s/he would sign off on a warrant. What was presented in the latest episode wasn't like that.

 

Yes, a cop could hypothetically arrest people without a warrant. But an arrest warrant entitles the cop to go in a person's home or business to effect the arrest, as Gordon and Bullock did.

My feeling is that they were invited into Falcone's house with the mayor.  I can see why they would want the pre-signed warrant.  My only thought would be that the judge, in an effort to cover his ass gave them the pre-signed warrants for those instances of telephonic warrants, even though he probably understood that they would be used the exact way Gordon and Bullock used them.  If done correctly -- the cop calls the judge, reviews probable cause, gets the judge to agree to the warrant -- I wonder if the pre-signed arrest warrant is unconstitutional in that situation?

[2KllMckngBrd]

Barbara is an aggressively stupid person. WTF was she thinking?

 

And dang -- Penguin is everybody's man, isn't he? I freaking love him.

Aggressively stupid cracked me up. And is also an apt description of the character. I have been railing about both the character of Barbara, and the actress, since the pilot. I. Do. Not. Like. Either. Barbara seems so dumb, and has no chemistry w/Ben McKenzie/Jim Gordon. I was happy when Barbara got on that bus. I was thinking that maybe the show makers were only 5eps in, and saw how bad she was, and were writing her off. At least for awhile. Even hoped lovesick Montoya would chase after her.

 

Then there she was. Like a bad penny. I tweeted "damn, Barbara can't even leave town right". I guess, in theory, her coming back ultimately "saved" Jim. But I believe that was by happenstance, and most certainly not by design, so she most definitely gets no credit. And remains safely in the aggressively stupid category.

 

Do. Not. Like. Either. Still.

 

Please put me on the freaking love the penguin train as well. Robin Lord Taylor is the shit. Right now love the character and actor, but can't wait till he becomes the character I love to hate.

 

 

 

I really enjoyed this episode. Ben McKenzie was insanely hot as Gordon strutted around with that shotgun.

 

I liked Montoya apologizing to Jim. It was very classy. I don't think that she and her partner can solve anything much less the Waynes'  murders. I cracked up when Alfred jacked up Montoya's partner.

 

Oswald kissing the guy after he killed him was freaky as hell, but I had to laugh. 

 

James' reaction to Harvey and his woman playing Marco Polo was hysterical.

Ben McKenzie was so hot I didn't know if I could stand it. The freeze on him w/the shotgun had me seriously reevaluating the meaning of life.

 

I to thought it was a classy move having Montoya admit she was wrong. Especially when we all know she's hot for Barbara. It made me sorry for wishing she was leaving town w/Barbara. Well not really, but almost. And there is no way in hell Montoya & her partner are going to catch anybody's killer, let alone the Wayne's. But at least I don't despise them anymore.

 

Given Oswald's incredibly creepy relationship w/his mother, I just laughed at the kiss. Oswald has come by his creepy factor honestly.

 

When she said Marco I actually choked on my dinner. lol. I tweeted that Harvey likes the big girls. That made me love him anymore. In the beginning he came across as just dirty. Now he seems like a cop who has had to make a lot of compromises, but is deep down still a good guy. Donal Logue, per usual, is charming as hell.

 

Best ep so far. Loved it.

[Shanna]

I haven't had much use for Barbara because they haven't done much with her but what is really the difference between Jim and Bullock going to Falcone's place and Barbara? Jim and Bulluck were expecting it to die went anyway guns ablazibg and we call it heroic Barbara went to beg for their life and we call it stupid? Mostly i think because it was done off screen and Barbara hasn't done much. The show needs to figure out what they want to do with Barbara.

I like Barbara although she hadn't had much to do and as much as this was a dumb thing to do I can't fault her because when Jim said goodbye he was practically suicidal. She was trying to save his life but I would have liked it if she had an actual plan. It would have helped if we had seen what she actually said to falcone but it would have messed up the 'do you trust me' thing they were going for. Anyways the real person who saved them was Oswald. Which was fantastic.

I adored this episode so much.

On the presigned warrants, it's just another example of the deep corruption in Gotham.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Shanna

[Syndicate]

Wonderful episode!  This is exactly what the show should be going forward.  The episodes should focus on a much bigger picture instead of the creepsters of the week who offer basically nothing to the overall narrative. 

[hammaboo]

If it comes down to them setting either Allen or Montoya as being the dirty one, I hope it turns out to be Allen because this show can't write a female character to save its life.

 

Honk, honk indeed.  That cracked me up so much when he had to explain "It's the sound geese make." 

[The Kings Foot]

Gotham time.  Where the fashion and architecture is from the 40's the cars are from the 70's and the tech is from the 90's 

Edited November 5, 2014 by The Kings Foot

[shelley1234]

Gotham time.  Where the fashion and architecture is from the 40's the cars are from the 70's and the tech is from the 90's 

 

I've always felt that was very intentional...mixing items from different time periods to make it a more timeless story.  

[apgold]

I've always felt that was very intentional...mixing items from different time periods to make it a more timeless story.  

 

The production design on this show is Emmy worthy (the CGI isn't though).  I love that they mix eras, keeps it interesting.  I also thought it's supposed to look a little dated b/c of the "prequel" nature of the show, when Bruce Wayne was a kid, so it wouldn't be set in the present day.

[Shanna]

I've always felt that was very intentional...mixing items from different time periods to make it a more timeless story.

I think is my most favorite thing about the show. It's stylish. It's gorgeous.

[2KllMckngBrd]

I think is my most favorite thing about the show. It's stylish. It's gorgeous.

I 2nd that emotion. An actor who looks like Robin Lord Taylor, playing a slough footed future penguin could only exist in a world that is that timeless. Each week as we are exposed to more sets and scenic views of "Gotham", I love it more and more. It reminds me of the look of Kevin Costner's Untouchables, an old film noire like the Thin Man series/movies, parts of 1970's blaxploitation movies, and yet somehow modern all at the same time. Stylish and gorgeous is the perfect description. A place where Carol Kane's Mrs. Cobblepot's apt could exist simultaneously w/that ridic penthouse Barbara and Jim are chillin' in.

 

It sets the mood. The atmosphere. I would like to think that which characters, and therefore which sets are used in each ep is more than chance, and very planned to match the tone of that ep.

[Trini]

Funny how Butch took the trouble of finding, kidnapping, and chaining up a gaggle(?) of nuns just to stop one truck, but then couldn't be bothered to haggle with the truck driver for a minute. #OnlyInGotham

[Milz]

Funny how Butch took the trouble of finding, kidnapping, and chaining up a gaggle(?) of nuns just to stop one truck, but then couldn't be bothered to haggle with the truck driver for a minute. #OnlyInGotham

 

This along with the showdown at the Police headquarters reminds me of "Get Smart" with all the hair-brained stuff KAOS does like the episode where the Claw's Asian henchman kidnaps a bunch of blonde women because "All American's look alike" to him or where KAOS plants a bomb in Hymie the Robot and every CONTROL agent runs out of the building except Max and Chief.

 

There's camp in Gotham, but the juxtaposition between camp and darkness is odd.

[supposebly]

 

There's camp in Gotham, but the juxtaposition between camp and darkness is odd.

 

I like the juxtaposition. To me, it feels just about right. There are some hiccups with Barbara, they could have shown it better how desperate she was about Jim most likely going to his death. We should have seen her desperation that lead to her decision to go to Falcone.

 

We don't see enough of her perspective and that makes her look stupid.

 

Couldn't like the Penguin more if I tried. I hope however he doesn't overtake the show.

[caracas1914]

The Penguin is starting to dominate the show, which is not necessarily  a good thing as this type of ensemble needs a good supporting cast of characters who can take turns with the spotlight.   As cliche as the Falcone gangster is, I like the actor's gravitas who portrays him.

 

As usual, the women on Gotham need work.  (Though not Penguin's mother, she is perfection. )

My biggest problem is that Fish Mulrooney just chews up the scenery way too much onscreen for my taste.  I realizes she is suppose to be this dangerous villain but she comes across as laughable to me as a towering  criminal presence.    Barbara was  interesting in that her love for Gordon actually shined through, but God knows that have to give her more to do. Montoya just got a lot more complex admitting she was wrong so there's that.

 

Visually the Gotham PD clearing the precinct for Falcone's henchmen  was a great way to show the corruption of Gotham rather than talking about it endlessly.

 

I loved the tone of this episode, but the problem is the tone seems to waver the next time out, especially if we are back to villain of the week. 

Edited November 6, 2014 by caracas1914

[Snookums]

Barbara is a dumb, dumb lady.  Of course she won't stay away....and runs herself right into danger and ruining things for Jim.  And she wonders why he doesn't want to tell her things.  Boo.  Stop making the womens so dumb show!

 

 

I haven't had much use for Barbara because they haven't done much with her but what is really the difference between Jim and Bullock going to Falcone's place and Barbara? Jim and Bulluck were expecting it to die went anyway guns ablazibg and we call it heroic Barbara went to beg for their life and we call it stupid? Mostly i think because it was done off screen and Barbara hasn't done much. The show needs to figure out what they want to do with Barbara.

 

 

Both extremely good points. Right now Barbara is just a prop for the convenience of the show: She has a great set doubling as her apartment! (Does Jim have his own place, by the by? Does he live with her? Can't think Barbara's gonna be too pleased with Harvey and the Dutchess playing Marco Polo in her bed.) She's had a girlfriend but only offscreen for story purposes and is now nicely het with a man! She's got lots of money and connections but they're only useful when Jim needs them! She's got at least two people hopelessly in love with her but it's never used to her advantage!

 

Barbara is a potentially rich stew of a character that's being left in heaps of ingredients on the counter rather then being cooked up. She has a taste for danger and craziness (her apparently pretty druggy relationship with Montoya.) She's got the kind of influence and ability to learn information on the rich and powerful that only old money can buy. She's clearly loyal and brave, risking her life to plead for James' with a man she knows is insanely dangerous.

 

All these things should equal her being a real partner to James Gordon, his secret weapon, his equal as she learns things only a pretty young seeming ornament could learn at the kind of rich parties Jim wouldn't be admitted to, soothes and enchants the players of this town into a sense of security, moves through Wayne Enterprises as a potential investor. She should be invaluable.

 

But alas, the show is so damn focused on A) Jim Gordon As White Knight/Proto Batman (i.e., LONER) and B) the idea that a "good partner" for this kind of person is a completely domesticated kitten whose only role is to be soft, adorable and helpless has made Barbara an idiot. All her decisions are made offscreen, so when she attempts to assist Jim she looks ridiculous rather then courageous. Her calling the paper could have been presented as her using her knowledge of how Gotham works to plant misleading information, but instead of course it made her look stupid. 

 

The show is really short selling Barbara. I hate to break it to you, writers, but a woman character does not have to be evil to be interesting. A good character, as demonstrated by Gordon, can be just as complex and enthralling, even if she doesn't have a penis!

[maczero]

How would Oswald know anything about Gordon? Enough to know he wouldn't kill him? Obviously he was taking a chance, but still.

He doesn't know much about Gordon but he did witness Gordon trying to stop a beating of one of Fish's employees.  He also probably heard or witnessed how Fish and Bullock referred to him as a boy scout.  I'm sure Penguin was grasping at straws to stay alive but he obviously grasped the right one.

 

Finally I think one of Montoya and Allen is dirty as hell. That car's arrival in the middle of the gunfight was a bit too convenient, I assume Montoya so we can continue this silly love triangle but Allen's looking pretty suspicious as well.

I don't think they are.  Why save him and not use him to their benefit?

 

I haven't had much use for Barbara because they haven't done much with her but what is really the difference between Jim and Bullock going to Falcone's place and Barbara? Jim and Bulluck were expecting it to die went anyway guns ablazibg and we call it heroic Barbara went to beg for their life and we call it stupid? Mostly i think because it was done off screen and Barbara hasn't done much. The show needs to figure out what they want to do with Barbara.

Big difference.  You said it yourself they went in there with guns.  Barbara went there defenseless with no leverage.  Her plan was what to beg for Jim's life?  Why would she think that would work?  At least with Jim's plan, Falcone and the Mayor at least get the bad pr from being arrested (sure Jim & Bullock wind up dead) but that was going to happen anyway.

 

Funny how Butch took the trouble of finding, kidnapping, and chaining up a gaggle(?) of nuns just to stop one truck, but then couldn't be bothered to haggle with the truck driver for a minute. #OnlyInGotham

This was another great scene.  Butch tells the drivers that they got to take a beating or a bullet as a message from Falcone.  One of the drivers rightfully asks why can't we simply tell Maroni that Falcone was behind this.  Butch shoots the guy for being a smart ass.

Edited November 6, 2014 by maczero

[Milz]

 

 Barbara went there defenseless with no leverage.  Her plan was what to beg for Jim's life?  Why would she think that would work?  At least with Jim's plan, Falcone and the Mayor at least get the bad pr from being arrested (sure Jim & Bullock wind up dead) but that was going to happen anyway.

 

 

 

Because Dumbara is the stereotypic stupid girlfriend who does stupid stuff to save hero boyfriend and ends up needing to be saved herself. 

[mtlchick]

 

I've always felt that was very intentional...mixing items from different time periods to make it a more timeless story.

 

It reminds me a lot of the 90s animated cartoon, which is part of the reason why I enjoyed this set up.  There are tiny bits of that in the Dark Knight trilogy, but very minor. 

[RealityGal]

The Penguin is starting to dominate the show, which is not necessarily  a good thing as this type of ensemble needs a good supporting cast of characters who can take turns with the spotlight.   As cliche as the Falcone gangster is, I like the actor's gravitas who portrays him.

 

As usual, the women on Gotham need work.  (Though not Penguin's mother, she is perfection. )

My biggest problem is that Fish Mulrooney just chews up the scenery way too much onscreen for my taste.  I realizes she is suppose to be this dangerous villain but she comes across as laughable to me as a towering  criminal presence.    Barbara was  interesting in that her love for Gordon actually shined through, but God knows that have to give her more to do. Montoya just got a lot more complex admitting she was wrong so there's that.

 

Visually the Gotham PD clearing the precinct for Falcone's henchmen  was a great way to show the corruption of Gotham rather than talking about it endlessly.

 

I loved the tone of this episode, but the problem is the tone seems to waver the next time out, especially if we are back to villain of the week. 

 

Right now, i really like Fish Mooney, however, she can be very close to the line of being too much and become too much of a caricature or cartoon.  And the more time she spends on screen overacting, the more its going to seem like thats all Fish is, is a two dimensional figure that is over the top all the time.

 

 

The show is really short selling Barbara. I hate to break it to you, writers, but a woman character does not have to be evil to be interesting. A good character, as demonstrated by Gordon, can be just as complex and enthralling, even if she doesn't have a penis!

 

Sadly, most of the times I find the villainness far more interesting than the female protagonist on almost every show I've watched.  The only female protagonist I've seen written with some depth and complexity has been Emily on Revenge, but for the most part they are all written as shallow and one dimensional as Barbara, although hats off to the writers for at least not giving her some crazy ass pining ex boyfriend, but an ex girlfriend, and not making a super huge PC big deal about it My feeling is that we've come a long way when it really doesn't matter if you had a same sex past relationship or a mixed sex past relationship.

 

I actually might be interested to see more of the Dutchess, I kind of dig the idea of an unconventionally pretty woman taking over.

[memememe76]

With respect to female characters, the one I find most entertaining is Captain Sarah Essen. I think the actress's comedic skills aids in my appreciation. 

 

My knowledge of Batman lore is severely limited. The earlier episodic episodes weren't doing much for me, but the last two have been really good. Kinda loved this past one. I can't remember the last straight-arrow character being so compelling as Gordon. Maybe Nikita, but her past was shady so there was a redemption aspect to that character. 

[Old House Nut]

That was easily the best episode of the season. Interesting plot, excellent acting, intriguing secondary characters. Yes, Barbara is a doofus, but that was about the only thing that disappointed in this episode. Highlights included the sideline banter about the "sending a message that things are serious" from the truck drivers. That sort of riff on a cliche of crime movies and shows was really nice. It's exactly the sort of thing that a real person might say but which never happens in these situations on TV or in movies. And, of course, Ben McKenzie looking spectacularly hot. 

 

One thing did strike me as a bit unfortunate. When the shady woman was introduced by Bullock, he refers to her as the Duchess of Devonshire twice. That's not exactly a common reference to signify wealth and sophistication; most writers might have said the "Queen of England" or something. But, the Duchess was a real person who was the epitome of wealth and grace. Sadly, the real Duchess of Devonshire died only six weeks ago at the age of 94 (Note: Fascinating life. Worth some Googling), probably just after this episode was filmed. I'm sure no member of the Cavendish family will ever even hear about the existence of "Gotham," much less a reference to the Duchess, but it might have been nice to change the audio on the show to swap that name out. Seems a bit awkward. 

[MisterGlass]

 

It also reminds me of the alternate universe from Fringe. If the show gains in popularity, I hope eventually they'll feel bold enough to have someone pay for something with dollars showing the face of Martin Luther King Jr. I can't recall if they called them "Kings" or "Martins" on Fringe.

 

They called them "Juniors".  The Fringe alt universe metaphor is apt because there was a mix of very advanced technology and primitive technology there.  I think it's working well for Gotham, and I agree that there has always been an odd mix in Batman.  Part of that is due to the technology used by Batman and the criminals he fights, much of which seems futuristic relative to the standard of the times.  Campy as it was, the 1960s Adam West "Batman" featured a computer that could search for patterns and suggest avenues for research.  The Tim Burton/Michael Keaton movies had a Batmobile with audio controls and an onboard computer.

 

A couple of posters mentioned worries of the villains taking over the series, and I agree that could be a problem.  Already the Penguin, Falcone, and Maroni are more interesting than the majority of the 'good' characters.  I was more worried about this possibility at the start of the series, but now that Bullock and Gordon are coming into their own as partners I think they may be able to keep the series from going in that direction.  I would like whatever happens with the villains to make narrative sense.

[sifar]

I'm sure no member of the Cavendish family will ever even hear about the existence of "Gotham," much less a reference to the Duchess, but it might have been nice to change the audio on the show to swap that name out. Seems a bit awkward.

 

Maybe the writers were talking about Georgiana Cavendish, the 5th Duchess of Devonshire, an ancestor of the current Duke. She was infamous for her marital arrangements, her catastrophic love affairs, her beauty and sense of style and clothes, her political campaigning and love of gambling. She had an illegitimate daughter fathered by Charles Grey, 2nd Earl Grey. She also raised her husband's illegitimate daughter, Charlotte, who was conceived with a mistress. So she was definitely a very unconventional and remarkable woman in addition to a great beauty. Keira Knightley played her in the movie "The Duchess."

[ratgirlagogo]

About the Duchess of Devonshire thing - this also has to do with the writers going back and forth on just how dumb/untutored Bullock actually is as a character.   He comes up with Duchess of Devonshire and joie de vivre (which he pronounces correctly), yet doesn't know what "altruism" is.  In a way I adore Donal Logue too much to really care, but they need to work this out as the show continues.

Edited November 9, 2014 by ratgirlagogo

[MisterGlass]

 

He comes up with Duchess of Devonshire and joie de vivre (which he pronounces correctly), yet doesn't know what "altruism" is.

 

It is a little inconsistent, but at the same time I could see Bullock knowing joie de vivre because it could describe the lifestyles of some of the underworld characters with whom he has associated, as opposed to altruism, which seems to be a rare virtue in Gotham.  How the Duchess of Devonshire is connected, I have no idea.

[jhlipton]

Same here, but I'm more annoyed by how unnecessary making Barbara into a near shoo in for the T.V. moron of the year awards was. They could have simply had Falcone send some of his men to collect her and then had the mansion scene happen anyway, WITHOUT making Barbara look completely brainless.

 

At first, that's what I thought happened -- Falcone found this "incredibly safe" place and kidnapped her from there. It would have made her a lot less stupid, especially if she had fought back.

 

Honk, honk indeed.  That cracked me up so much when he had to explain "It's the sound geese make."

I didn't get it first -- I seem to recall the The Penguin on the TV show would say "Honk honk" or something similar. Maybe that's where he got it from.

 

All these things should equal her being a real partner to James Gordon, his secret weapon, his equal as she learns things only a pretty young seeming ornament could learn at the kind of rich parties Jim wouldn't be admitted to, soothes and enchants the players of this town into a sense of security, moves through Wayne Enterprises as a potential investor. She should be invaluable.

I love all of this.

I was thinking that if I were Gordon and heard that Barbara came back, I'd have told Falcone "You can keep her. She's way too dumb for my fight."

[Milz]

That was easily the best episode of the season. Interesting plot, excellent acting, intriguing secondary characters. Yes, Barbara is a doofus, but that was about the only thing that disappointed in this episode. Highlights included the sideline banter about the "sending a message that things are serious" from the truck drivers. That sort of riff on a cliche of crime movies and shows was really nice. It's exactly the sort of thing that a real person might say but which never happens in these situations on TV or in movies. And, of course, Ben McKenzie looking spectacularly hot. 

 

One thing did strike me as a bit unfortunate. When the shady woman was introduced by Bullock, he refers to her as the Duchess of Devonshire twice. That's not exactly a common reference to signify wealth and sophistication; most writers might have said the "Queen of England" or something. But, the Duchess was a real person who was the epitome of wealth and grace. Sadly, the real Duchess of Devonshire died only six weeks ago at the age of 94 (Note: Fascinating life. Worth some Googling), probably just after this episode was filmed. I'm sure no member of the Cavendish family will ever even hear about the existence of "Gotham," much less a reference to the Duchess, but it might have been nice to change the audio on the show to swap that name out. Seems a bit awkward. 

 

 

Or they could have made up a name.

 

I'm fond of the Mittfords (the late Dowager Duchess of Devonshire being one of them).

Edited November 10, 2014 by Milz

[Milz]

It is a little inconsistent, but at the same time I could see Bullock knowing joie de vivre because it could describe the lifestyles of some of the underworld characters with whom he has associated, as opposed to altruism, which seems to be a rare virtue in Gotham.  How the Duchess of Devonshire is connected, I have no idea.

 

Someone posted about Georgiana, Duchess of Devonshire. But if this is a reference to Deborah, Duchess of Devonshire, it could be foreshadowing Batman. When her husband inherited the Devonshire estate in the late 1940s-early 1950s, the it was bankrupt and owed a huge amount of back taxes. By opening up the estate to tourism and producing goods (ex. food), she managed to get it solvent in 11 years and profitable after that. So perhaps the writers are giving a nod to Deborah, who turned an estate around financially?

[jhlipton]

BTW, did anyone else get a Grace Jones Jr vibe off Zsasz's back henchwoman?