S03.E04: The Magician

[foreverevolving]

I have a legitimate question here... 

 

Last week Laurel didn't even know what pinging a GPS device was (I believe she told Felicity to google a man's phone)... but this week she can hack into a surveillance feed?

 

Please tell me you all see what's wrong with the picture here.  

 

I raised the same wtf query a page or two a go myself.

[wonderwall]

I raised the same wtf query a page or two a go myself.

It's SO FRUSTRATING! The writers literally don't give a damn about Laurel and seem to give her traits and skills that serve the plot then take it away when it doesn't. Laurel has no personality other than being excessively angry all the time (which isn't a even a characteristic/trait), she has no known skills other than lawyering (which she's friggin' terrible at) and punching a punching bag. Who the hell is Laurel? What does she do when she's not bossing people around in the foundry? Does she just go home and unplug herself and power down like a robot? 

 

Over the summer I feared the writers would brush all of Laurel's issues aside in order to push her to become BC, and it came true. Instead of working on her character they worked on the plot surrounding her character which is crappy because once you take that away, Laurel is useless. 

 

Now I'm just waiting for her to get that canary cry because Laurel's so precious and this will make her even more precious and blah blah blah. Ugh. 

[foreverevolving]

I have to say, what worries me more is Felicity future/life. while a 50th episode is not a 100th episode, it is still pretty major thing for a show, few get there and if they do it's almost a guarantee for a fourth season to reach the needed syndication number...
I mean out of all the episodes they could have chosen, they couldn't have had her go to cc in episode 3? or 5 and make her episode be episode 6?

this bit worries me.

[wonderwall]

I have to say, what worries me more is Felicity future/life. while a 50th episode is not a 100th episode, it is still pretty major thing for a show, few get there and if they do it's almost a guarantee for a fourth season to reach the needed syndication number...

I mean out of all the episodes they could have chosen, they couldn't have had her go to cc in episode 3? or 5 and make her episode be episode 6?

this bit worries me.

I wouldn't worry about it. Felicity was very missed in this episode from all the reviews I've seen and the comments and the podcasts... Yeah, I think the audience made it known she was missed and Arrow isn't the same without her. This will probably refrain the writers from effing the show up by killing her off or writing her off the show through other means. 

 

The show just isn't as good as it is with Felicity because she adds that extra element other characters (I'm looking at Roy) failed to add. They can't risk losing her. 

[Ceylon5]

I have a legitimate question here... 

 

Last week Laurel didn't even know what pinging a GPS device was (I believe she told Felicity to google a man's phone)... but this week she can hack into a surveillance feed?

 

Please tell me you all see what's wrong with the picture here.  

 

I wasn't paying super close attention at this point, but my default assumption was that if Laurel was getting information at the precinct, she wasn't physically doing the work herself.  I just assumed when she said "I did x, y and z" what she really meant was "I flashed my credentials as an ADA around (possibly using my Very Special Badge and my father's name for added emphasis) and told some police computer dude what I wanted".  Like she does with Felicity.  That's why she did it at the precinct (where there was an available computer nerd to boss around) and not at the lair (where there wasn't).

[wonderwall]

I have to say, what worries me more is Felicity future/life. while a 50th episode is not a 100th episode, it is still pretty major thing for a show, few get there and if they do it's almost a guarantee for a fourth season to reach the needed syndication number...

I mean out of all the episodes they could have chosen, they couldn't have had her go to cc in episode 3? or 5 and make her episode be episode 6?

this bit worries me.

Okay so I was thinking about this more and I realized something. The crux of the episode was Oliver making a choice between breaking his vow by being a killer and being a hero. And to make the stakes higher, the writers wanted everyone to be against Oliver on this. It wouldn't make sense for Felicity to be there because she would automatically be on his side and if she wasn't then that would be WAY out of character and against everything she stood for in season 2. Oliver needed a situation where he had to be able to make this choice by himself to show character growth and to show that he is not going to back down on his vow. Not now, and maybe not ever (heh, this line will kill me). While what Oliver did in the end (essentially declaring war against the LoA) was stupid, he grew in the fact that he firmly stood his ground not letting people push him around like what almost happened the season 2 finale if it wasn't for Felicity. I think this is just a part of the process of Oliver gaining his humanity back. Because Oliver isn't upholding his vow as an obligation anymore (as I felt he was doing in season 2), I think he firmly believes killing is not the answer especially after locking up Slade. 

 

I don't know if this made sense. But this could also be a reason why Felicity wasn't in the episode. I don't think she would've fit in it because of what the writers were trying to do with Oliver. 

 

Also did anyone think that Malcolm bringing up the ARGUS prison on Lian Yu and saying that it isn't impenetrable was potential foreshadowing for Slade making a comeback? I hope so. I really liked Slade. Hated his motivation. But liked him as a villain. But it also leaves me dreading that the first person he'll go after when he comes back is Felicity. *sigh* I hope she doesn't die. I'm guessing he'll make a comeback at around end of season 4 or season 5. 

Edited October 31, 2014 by wonderwall

[Jediknight]

Also did anyone think that Malcolm bringing up the ARGUS prison on Lian Yu and saying that it isn't impenetrable was potential foreshadowing for Slade making a comeback? I hope so. I really liked Slade. Hated his motivation. But liked him as a villain. But it also leaves me dreading that the first person he'll go after when he comes back is Felicity. *sigh* I hope she doesn't die. I'm guessing he'll make a comeback at around end of season 4 or season 5. 

He'll be back before that, because Waller will want him to come out and play with the Suicide Squad.

[writersblock51]

A few things:

- yes, Laurel's tech ability went from "Google this" to "Here's video feed" without ANYthing to fill in between the 2.  I like Ceylon5's theory about how she got help from the PD.  But, yet again, we didn't SEE IT.  We saw the result, which comes off as her getting info that she didn't earn, again

 

- ARGUS, Slade & Malcolm - I definitely think Slade will be coming back at some point, maybe not this season but we'll see him again. I can definitely see him working for ARGUS. How Malcolm knows all this and is still able to walk around in downtown Starling City AND not be detected at any point by Waller is beyond me, though

 

I don't mind using my brain when watching a TV show.  What I don't like, however, is having to use my brain to fill in massive gaps and fanwank continuity errors that the show was too lazy to handle.  it's a comic book superhero show on the CW - fanwanking is a part of it, I get that.  But when the amount of work I have to do to explain the show to myself outweighs what I've actually watched, something's wrong.

 

This episode is now the 4th in a row that is failing, IMO, with handling it's stories cleanly.

Edited October 31, 2014 by writersblock51

[KenyaJ]

I have a legitimate question here... 

 

Last week Laurel didn't even know what pinging a GPS device was (I believe she told Felicity to google a man's phone)... but this week she can hack into a surveillance feed?

 

Please tell me you all see what's wrong with the picture here.  

 

What's wrong with this picture is what's wrong with the entire show right now -- everyone's actions are being dictated by plot, not character. It's such a terrible way to tell a story.

[KirkB]

I have a legitimate question here...

 

Last week Laurel didn't even know what pinging a GPS device was (I believe she told Felicity to google a man's phone)... but this week she can hack into a surveillance feed?

 

Please tell me you all see what's wrong with the picture here.

 

I can't speak for the EP's are actually thinking or doing, but I'll give this a shot.

 

It was never said that Laurel doesn't know what a GPS is, just that she didn't happen to have the right word when she was talking to Felicity. She obviously knew what she wanted Felicity to do. As for hacking into the surveillance feed, Felicity has her system set up to be pretty idiot friendly. Roy pointed that out. For that matter, if I recall the scene the smoke was already visible on one of the screens, so I'm not sure she hacked so much as zoomed.

 

Not to say I'm defending Laurel. The writing for her is so inconsistent (which is oddly the only consistent thing about her) she could have been a tech expert this whole time and I'm not sure we'd know it.

Edited October 31, 2014 by KirkB

[quarks]

I have to say, what worries me more is Felicity future/life. while a 50th episode is not a 100th episode, it is still pretty major thing for a show, few get there and if they do it's almost a guarantee for a fourth season to reach the needed syndication number...

I mean out of all the episodes they could have chosen, they couldn't have had her go to cc in episode 3? or 5 and make her episode be episode 6?

this bit worries me.

 

 

Well, for in plot/character reasons, @wonderwall is right: For this episode to work, and for Oliver's choice to be meaningful, everyone had to be against him. Felicity is often against him, granted, but she supports the no-killing vow. Second, since that also meant that Laurel had to be on the GO KILL side initially, that would have set Felicity and Laurel at odds. The two characters may not be friends, and Felicity expressed some shock/surprise at Laurel's call last week - but it was pretty strongly implied that she did (eventually) help out Laurel, and if Felicity and Laurel are shown fighting on screen a lot, that raises a real risk that a) viewers will interpret it as two women fighting over a guy, something the show has so far been praised for successfully avoiding, b) this will be interpreted again as Laurel moving back into the love interest role, something the show isn't trying to do and is getting blamed for doing anyway; no need to add coals to the fire. This way, the show could continue to make the not very subtle point that Sara's death has led to Oliver and Laurel growing increasingly antagonistic, and make the point that Oliver still doesn't confide in Laurel that much.  It actually adds to the Felicity/Oliver relationship.

 

Also, the show went out of its way to have Felicity be useful in an episode that she wasn't even in. 

 

And on a writing note:

 

One of the advantages of Laurel - and this is an advantage in terms of "easy to write" -- is that she's been so inconsistent for two seasons now that you really can have her say pretty much anything and have this be in character.  Note that even though she completely flipped positions halfway through the episode, we're now four pages into discussing this episode, plus we have a frankly frighteningly long topic about Laurel, and not one person has said, "Wow, that was out of character for Laurel."  People have made that observation regarding Diggle and Oliver (regardless of whether it's correct) and people did say, "oh wow, Laurel was inconsistent again" but the key bit there is the "again."  Inconsistency is a character element of Laurel.

 

That meant that the show could use Laurel to more or less say that the right thing to do here, almost the ethical the thing to do here is to kill Malcolm.  And although it doesn't exactly fit the DA role, she was the only major character - apart from possibly Quentin - who could make that argument. Nyssa, after all, is an Evil Assassin, so she's not a great moral source here - and the show even used Roy to lampshade that. Diggle didn't argue that Oliver should kill Malcolm; he just pointed out that it would solve a lot of problems if Oliver let Nyssa kill Malcolm.  Roy could have said it - and since the show has said in script that Malcolm killed eleven of his friends, it would even have made sense for Roy to say it - but Oliver is Roy's mentor, not the other way around, and he doesn't listen to Roy's advice. Thea is not going to argue for killing her father even as part of hiding her "I love my Dad" plan.  And Quentin only makes the "Kill! Kill!" argument if one of his family members is threatened. In fact that was almost certainly the plot reason for not telling Quentin about Sara's death - that would put Quentin on the KILL KILL side, leaving Laurel with nothing to do.

 

But, since Laurel has been established as such an inconsistent character, once Oliver made his decision not to kill (not that I was overly worried about it), the show could then use Laurel to support this decision, even though at this point there's arguably more reason to kill Malcolm: not only has he just announced that no prison can hold him, thanks to him Thea is now hanging upside down and has severe hair problems. If only for the sake of whoever is responsible for doing Thea's hair on set, something had to be done. But the show at this point needed someone not Oliver to remind Oliver that he isn't a killer, and since Laurel has been consistently established as someone who is inconsistent, that line could be given to her.

 

(On a more cynical note, I'm guessing also that someone - not naming names - said, oooh, Felicity's big scenes last year included the "I'll be back," "Promise me," bits and wanted Laurel to have a similar moment.)

 

Regarding what the screentime for Felicity means going forward - taking this to the Hopes and Fears thread.

[Pyramid]

Can someone explain why Oliver put Malcolm under his protection? I might have missed the explanation in the episode. Was it so Thea wouldn't lose another parent? Something else? Have I missed something obvious?

It can't be because he has a no kill policy, because that reason makes no sense. He'd be off breaking out every prisoner on death row if that was the case.

[apinknightmare]

Can someone explain why Oliver put Malcolm under his protection? I might have missed the explanation in the episode. Was it so Thea wouldn't lose another parent? Something else? Have I missed something obvious?

It can't be because he has a no kill policy, because that reason makes no sense. He'd be off breaking out every prisoner on death row if that was the case.

 

It would've made more sense for Oliver to just tell the League to stay the hell out of SC business, because that's his domain and as long as Malcolm is there, he'll dole out justice as he sees fit.

[chaos is welcome]

I think at least part of it has to do with tommy, who thanked him as he was dying when Oliver lied (or thought he did) and said he didn't kill Malcolm. But it seemed as dumb as telling nyssa Thea was Malcolm's daughter. "Come and get me..." Stupid.

[Shanna]

It would've made more sense for Oliver to just tell the League to stay the hell out of SC business, because that's his domain and as long as Malcolm is there, he'll dole out justice as he sees fit.

That and the fact that the league attacked his sister would out them on his "stay the hell out" list.

I totally get why Oliver doesn't want to kill Malcolm. Aside from Thea, the no kill vow (which hadn't been mentioned in a while and which he didn't mind breaking for Felicity) was said to Tommy! This Is his father.

The stupid thing was letting him go without at least trying to put him in jail.

[calliope1975]

The stupid thing was letting him go without at least trying to put him in jail.

 

Exactly. I'm fine with not killing him, but just letting Merlyn go on his merry way? No. Throw him in jail. If he can break out, good on him. Catch him and throw him back in! I guess "no jail can hold me" is a literal get out of jail free card now. I get that Merlyn is Thea's father, but he is also the murderer of 1/2 of Starling City, and all those people deserve justice.

[Pyramid]

Exactly. I'm fine with not killing him, but just letting Merlyn go on his merry way? No. Throw him in jail. If he can break out, good on him. Catch him and throw him back in! I guess "no jail can hold me" is a literal get out of jail free card now. I get that Merlyn is Thea's father, but he is also the murderer of 1/2 of Starling City, and all those people deserve justice.

Not only not putting Merlyn in jail, but putting him under Oliver's protection. Just ... baffling. 

[Chaser]

It would have been more effective if Oliver had put STARLING CITY under his protection and Malcolm under his watch.

[dtissagirl]

Two things about Merlyn being free:

 

1. To put him in jail, they need Lance to know about Merlyn. And there's no way in hell Malcolm's first words to Lance wouldn't be "Sara is dead, your other daugher is lying to your face. Bee tee dubs, Oliver is the Arrow!"

 

2. I sorta wonder if the writers forgot that NOBODY KNOWS that Merlyn bought the jury that let Moira go free, and in their heads, since they know Malcolm can beat the justice system anyway, they can't be bothered to make the characters try again.

 

Which goes back to them going OUT OF THEIR WAY to not let Laurel be a lawyer, and not let Lance be the Police Captain AT ALL this season. Forever not understanding that.

[AustenChick]

Merlyn himself gave a reason for Oliver to keep him alive -- not just for Thea or Tommy, but Merlyn knows the League, was built from their cloth and knows the enemy. Also, Oliver seemed to really believe his theory that the League could be behind Sara's death.

[fantique]

Playing the devil's advocate here, just for laughsies. 

Didn't Oliver actually say in the episode that Malcolm Merlyn is under his protection (pffftt) as long he is on Starling City? That's what I heard when watching the show, he was basically trying to kick the league out of his turf. But maybe I just assumed that's what he meant put more thought into it than the writers did.

Edited October 31, 2014 by fantique

[transgojobot]

Or Cliff Simon. He looks exactly how I would picture a live-action Ra's Al Ghul.

 

Aww, shoot, Ba'al would've been wonderful. Instead, we get Jeremy Renner's older cousin who exudes ZERO menace in his intro. 

Edited October 31, 2014 by transgojobot

[writersblock51]

Playing the devil's advocate here, just for laughsies. 

Didn't Oliver actually say in the episode that Malcolm Merlyn is under his protection (pffftt) as long he is on Starling City? That's what I heard when watching the show, he was basically trying to kick the league out of his turf. But maybe I just assumed that's what he meant put more thought into it than the writers did.

I believe you're right.

 

If this is what happens, you deserve a big batch of homemade cookies because that would be a pretty brilliant plan - even one that Felicity may approve of.

 

but I would be shocked if the show gave Oliver enough sense to come up with it.

[Starfish35]

Ahhhh man Cliff Simon would have been perfect!!! :(

[apinknightmare]

Playing the devil's advocate here, just for laughsies. 

Didn't Oliver actually say in the episode that Malcolm Merlyn is under his protection (pffftt) as long he is on Starling City? That's what I heard when watching the show, he was basically trying to kick the league out of his turf. But maybe I just assumed that's what he meant put more thought into it than the writers did.

 

That's what he said, and I think that's exactly what he was trying to do, he just worded it in a stupid way, haha.

[KirkB]

Damn, you're right.

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/Cliff_Simon_-_2012_Sci-Fi_Convention_Toulouse_264.jpg

[Actionmage]

1. How/why did Oliver not think to check the random blank piece of paper for invisible ink? I find it so hard to believe he'd not even consider that an option, even if it turned out to be nothing but a blank piece of paper.

Answer: Because...Writers.

 

 

2. Did they always have the surveillance photographs of Malcolm or were they found in Sara's hideout? Oliver looked shocked to learn that Malcolm was alive but then suddenly he's saying they had pictures of him? Huh?!

 

The photos were from Sara's camera, used to see if the Malcolm's Alive rumors were true. The pictures in the Cave were from her digital camera.

 

 

 

3. How come Laurel doesn't know how to ping someone's GPS but is suddenly adept at bringing up security camera footage?

 

 

Because...Writers!

 

4. Will Thea just never go into the basement at the club she owns? On that note, how has Oliver been using the lair in a building he hasn't officially owned for over five months? It's like he's wanting to get caught. Also, doesn't everyone have to walk through the club to get to the basement entrance? It's like the worst secret lair I've ever seen in my life.

 

Well, we're assuming she didn't last season, so why not this one too? *g*  I think she's known like Quentin has known, just not as long. Not because Merlyn told her. He may have confirmed it for her, but I don't think Thea'd be gasp-y shocked at the news. As to how folks get in? It's called Breaking & Entering. I figured that there was a back way in a service hall in the back of the club. No one wants the garbage toted through the club, so there has to be the back entrance. Where Oliver put an arrow through Roy's leg last year.  Yeah, the secret of the lair? It's not so secret.

 

 

5. Why does everyone on this show think the black jacket is magical? Clearly it is not otherwise Sara would not be dead. If anything that jacket is cursed. JFC.

 

Not everyone does, so keep hope! I think that Laurel and TPTB think it's magical, so I don't take it too seriously, at least not yet. I'm keeping hope that that theory will be disproved soon and hard.

[BkWurm1]

-

Incidentally, this episode made a big deal out of his new "no kill" rule. But didn't he kill the new Count Vertigo with arrows?

He didn't kill him. He used a non lethal trick arrow that when it hit him in the chest, ropes sprung out and tied him up. But it was dark and hard to see anything but the arrow seemingly sticking out of his chest.

[looptab]

Anyone else got annoyed when Laurel tells Oliver in her bitchy voice:

"So Malcolm is alive and Thea's father. Anything else you haven't told me?" ?

Just me? Uuughhh STFU Laurel

[tv echo]

Some additional thoughts.

 

The purple smoke signal was a pretty stupid way for Nyssa to attract Malcolm.  It could be seen clearly by everyone in Starling City.  Police, firefighters and/or curious civilians should have gotten there long before Malcolm or Oliver.  For one thing, it would have taken Laurel or Laurel's stooge some time to search through city surveillance videos before seeing the purple smoke footage.

 

I had another WTF moment when Nyssa made that parting comment to boxing Laurel.  Laurel said something like "you're not going to make another crack about the jacket, are you".  Nyssa replied that she would have at the cemetery but since then, Laurel has reminded her that "the strongest metal is forged in the hottest fire".  I think Nyssa was referencing both backwards to Sara and forwards to Laurel.  I understand the Sara reference perfectly.  But Laurel?  All Nyssa knows about Laurel's 'suffering' is that Laurel lost a sister.  How is that the "hottest fire"?  It just seemed like Nyssa was being a mouthpiece for the EPs - you know, Laurel's crucible B.S.

 

The dreaded League of Assassins is getting less scary and more incompetent by the minute.  Last season we had their assassins failing to defeat Sara and Oliver, even though they likely had more years of training than our heroes' five years.  This season?  We have the ridiculous purple smoke signal .  We have their failure to find Malcolm.  We have their failure to suspect that Malcolm's daughter was Thea (c'mon, Malcolm has been long-time friends with Moira).  We have Nyssa's sudden respect for Laurel and equating Sara's years of suffering with Laurel's losing a sibling.  And we have a less than intimidating Ra's al Ghul.

[Shanna]

I seriously thought laurel was just pulling up the local news or something when she showed the purple smoke. I guarantee somebody would have posted it on Facebook or something if that had happened here...

[rue721]

Yeah, the secret of the lair? It's not so secret.

 

I've long wondered where they park their cars when they go to the "secret lair." Is there some way to park them directly in the basement? I know Felicity hasn't been parking even a few blocks over when she's trying to wear those four-inch heels and cocktail dresses to work. Or are their cars all just hanging out right in front of the building or in the side alley next to it or something? Taking the bus or a cab back and forth seems like it would be even more counterproductive in terms of secret-keeping, so I assume they're driving. Well, maybe Roy can just walk over from that random house he used to live in (whose house was that? was he the only one living there?) but everyone else is going to need a ride and if Oliver lives there I would figure he'd need to straight up rent a nearby parking space or something.

[calliope1975]

The dreaded League of Assassins is getting less scary and more incompetent by the minute.  Last season we had their assassins failing to defeat Sara and Oliver, even though they likely had more years of training than our heroes' five years.  This season?  We have the ridiculous purple smoke signal .  We have their failure to find Malcolm.  We have their failure to suspect that Malcolm's daughter was Thea (c'mon, Malcolm has been long-time friends with Moira).  We have Nyssa's sudden respect for Laurel and equating Sara's years of suffering with Laurel's losing a sibling.  And we have a less than intimidating Ra's al Ghul.

 

I hate how incompetent they're making the LoA. They are an actual LEAGUE OF ASSASSINS. They are professional murderers. Even the goddamn Batman can't beat Ra's al Ghul and they mostly end at a draw. I love Oliver, but no, he should in no way, shape or form be able to take them on. 

[Trini]

 

It's like the worst secret lair I've ever seen in my life.

The "secret" command center on Chuck was worse (but it was partly a comedy); but if Arrow lasts as long as that show did, I'm sure they'll catch up.  :-P

 

But at least Oliver has an excuse: he's too broke to afford a better place. (Which still leaves the question, How is he affording the current place??)

[Jediknight]

I hate how incompetent they're making the LoA. They are an actual LEAGUE OF ASSASSINS. They are professional murderers. Even the goddamn Batman can't beat Ra's al Ghul and they mostly end at a draw. I love Oliver, but no, he should in no way, shape or form be able to take them on. 

We saw the League kick the crap out of Slade's army, so I suspect that they've gone easy on Oliver and Starling due to a request by Sara.  Yeah Ra's didn't think Sara was one of them, but if Nyssa made that request he'd honor it.  We haven't seen the League at full strength yet, now with Oliver protecting Malcolm he's declared war on them.  The gloves are off, and Oliver is going to find out just how good the League is.  Sara probably also said "Let me go to Starling and investigate if Malcolm is alive."

 

As for Oliver holding his own in fights, he wasn't exactly taking on Ra's or any al Ghul.  Yeah in this episode he did somewhat fight Nyssa, but I'd imagine Nyssa held back due to Sara.

 

And of course fights between Batman and Ra's are going to end in a draw.  Batman doesn't want to kill or injure the father of his true love, and Ra's doesn't want to kill his daughter's love.  They both also have an insane amount of respect for the other.

[KirkB]

As for Oliver holding his own in fights, he wasn't exactly taking on Ra's or any al Ghul.  Yeah in this episode he did somewhat fight Nyssa, but I'd imagine Nyssa held back due to Sara.

 

Actually I think both of them were holding back. Nyssa because of Sara, as you said, and Oliver because he knew if he killed or even seriously hurt Nyssa it would bring Ra's down on Starling. Of course, now because of protecting Malcolm he's done that anyway. Nyssa brought a handful of LoA members with her and they handled Slade's super soldier army pretty easily. Oliver and his group, even potentially with Malcolm's help, aren't going to have much of a chance if Ra's decides to come after them full force. On the other hand it IS Oliver's show, so he'll obviously find a way....

[slayer2]

Yes, they're using the basement of the club that Oliver doesn't own, which several people (both friendly and unfriendly) know about as their base of operations. Oliver did have a secondary facility in case the foundry was compromised, but his definition of compromised must be different from, well, the actual definition of compromised. Kind of like his definition of dead.

It's like they're not even trying this season. I'm STILL trying to wrap my mind around how Oliver is "broke". The stupid...it hurts. And I'm one of Laurel's biggest supporters (on here anyway) and even I'm finding her unlikeable, in this episode all she does is snap at people and all Oliver does is mope and lie to his sister. Ollie used to be my favourite character and Thea, my least favourite now all I care about is Thea and Ollie and his lies can go cliff diving. This can't be what they had in mind for the show?

During this episode I just zeroed in on the Merlyns and Detective Lance everything else I blacked out. So disappointed. Not even Nyssa was entertaining for me. Booo! Hated it, so depressing, so mopey so Supernatural season 5. Plus, now that I have The Flash I don't need this shit in my life and I HATE flashbacks!!!! /Bonnie Bennett. Haven't even seen the salmon ladder once either

Sara's death didn't work. The episodes show no emotional connection to it. Booo show! Booo!

I'm giving this show two more episodes before I drop it like it's hot. I have soooo many other shows to dedicate my time to now like Sleepy Hollow where the characters actually CARE about one another and hang out in their spare time. I don't need this doom and gloom. I don't wanna die down here either. /RANT OVER

Edited November 2, 2014 by slayer2

[Lisin]

The repeated bashing on Laurel the character and Katie Cassidy the actress has crossed the line. We are not going to go back and delete or move anything, but going forward, let's keep this in mind; you don't have to like Laurel or Katie Cassidy, just as other posters are not required to hate either of them. Continued and/or repeated posts saying the same thing over and over again will be deleted. Also, just because you think it, does not mean it needs to be put on the internet; think before you post. There are people who are not comfortable with reading in here because of the vitriol against the character and actress, and frankly, that includes the mods. The tone of a number of the Laurel-hating posts leaves much to be desired, so reel it in please. Going forward, we will be watching and posts may be deleted or edited.

Your mods,

@Lisin, @MostlyC, @SilverStormm, and

[tv echo]

I guess "The Magician" refers to this episode's writer who magically made Oliver a selective amnesiac, Nyssa a gullible fool, Laurel an IT-savvy and bulked up boxer, Diggle an unnecessary extra, and Felicity a disappearing act.

[SonofaBiscuit]

So, I finally got around to watching this one and it is one of those episodes that I won't even remember in a year.  Not great, if you ask me.  A few observations:

 

This episode was sooo dark that it was very hard to see what was going on when I was watching. 

 

Thea's hair looked like a Troll Doll when she was upside down.  Remember those creepy things?

 

Laurel has become so blonde that even though I knew better, for a split second, I would think Felicity was in the Arrow Cave.

 

I hope that Matt Nable is a helluva fighter, otherwise I don't really get the casting there at all.

 

I'm not even going to comment on Laurel but I'll just say if anyone feels the need to vent at any time, feel free to PM me privately because I love laughing at the snark.

 

I was speaking to my mom about Felicity after the Flash, and I told her that now Superman is on Arrow and he shares scenes with Felicity.  She tuned in Wednesday to watch this episode but didn't even make it all the way through.  She would watch if this show was centered around Smallville's Oliver, but she finds Arrow way too dark, depressing, and gloomy.  Can't say I blame her after how this season is shaping up.

[bethy]

I was late watching this episode, and I don't think I have much to add except that there was something about when Laurel told Oliver about Nyssa going after Merlyn.  She said, "I told Nyssa to go after Merlyn. I told her to do whatever it takes."  It took me a little while to put my finger on what rubbed me wrong about that and I realized it was because Laurel said that as if Nyssa is acting on Laurel's orders (for lack of a better word), as if Nyssa wouldn't have gone after Merlyn on her own due to her own grief and desire for revenge. I don't know if that makes sense. It was just another small moment where I felt like it became all about Laurel rather than about Nyssa and her own motivation for going after Merlyn.

[statsgirl]

One thing that impressed me when I was watching the episode was Katrina Law's acting as she was realizing that Sara was dead. Small muscle movements as she realizes and then tries to control herself.

 

I still think that Oliver should have let the LoA take Malcolm. Or if not, put him in the prison in Lian Yu.  There is no statute of limitations on murder, especially mass murder.  The previous seasons there was an overarching big bad but he still put the villains that popped up along the way in jail. There was no reason for him to let Merlyn go, and absolutely  no reason to put Merlyn under his protection from the LoA. They didn't want him for Sara's murder, they wanted him for the Glade crime.

 

Why did Thea thank Merlyn for saving her when it was The Arrow who did?  She's become stupid too.

 

I missed Felicity.  Roy doesn't do her dialogue nearly as well,and Laurel in the lair in a sleeveless top showing off her arms and pulling up traffic cameras the week after she told Felicity to google a phone number for her just seemed wrong.

 

If this had been the first episode of Arrow I've ever seen, I might have been impressed and tuned in for another.  But I lost interest about a third of the way in and ended up doing e-mails for the rest because I know this show can do so much better.

[shapeshifter]

Finally watched this. The only reason I could see to keep Malcom Merlyn alive is because it's John freakin' Barrowman. If they got Michael Shanks to guest star, I wonder which one would come back from the dead the greatest number of times. Heh.

Edited November 4, 2014 by shapeshifter

[BkWurm1]

Michael Shanks, hands down.

[JenMcSnark]

Why did Thea thank Merlyn for saving her when it was The Arrow who did?  She's become stupid too.

 

Thank you!  This is really the main thing that stood out for me in the episode because it bothered me so much.  The only thing I can think of is that the phone call was more about thanking Merlyn from saving her from the general craziness of life in Starling City?  I don't know.  

 

But it makes zero sense that she thought it was Merlyn who literally saved her from her troll-doll hanging unless she is color blind. 

 

edited because did I really say zero cents???  I'm as crazy as Thea

Edited November 5, 2014 by JenMcSnark

[Shanna]

Thank you! This is really the main thing that stood out for me in the episode because it bothered me so much.

Aside from Merlyn showing up later to help (ish), I've decided she is trolling Oliver since she knows he's the arrow.

[JenMcSnark]

Aside from Merlyn showing up later to help (ish), I've decided she is trolling Oliver since she knows he's the arrow.

That thought definitely crossed my mind too.  She has to know.  Especially after that.  Troll on girl.

[wonderwall]

I have a question... What is Laurel doing in the background? It looks like she's a robot who's shut down. I'm not hating. Just genuinely curious. Because she doesn't seem to be looking at anything significant either: 

 

Edited November 5, 2014 by wonderwall

[bethy]

I've noticed that in a couple of places in episodes. If Katie Cassidy is in the background of a shot she doesn't seem to react like she's still part of the scene. You can see everyone else responding to Oliver's words and motion - following his movement across the room with eyes or body - but KC doesn't. It's very odd to me.

[apinknightmare]

I've noticed that in a couple of places in episodes. If Katie Cassidy is in the background of a shot she doesn't seem to react like she's still part of the scene. You can see everyone else responding to Oliver's words and motion - following his movement across the room with eyes or body - but KC doesn't. It's very odd to me.

 

I think maybe, here, she's trying to process the fact that Oliver just told her he had the ability to kill Malcolm but didn't. That bloodthirst is a bitch to swallow, man!