S03.E04: The Magician

[Shanna]

Why didn't they cast Oded Fehr, he would have been perfect.

Oh man, I would have kissed this show if they had cast him. I would also be happy if tommy were back from the dead no matter how ridiculous the explanation. I have been rewatching season 1.

[MsSchadenfreude]

STFU Laurel! unless and until the words "Mom and Dad, Sara is dead" come out of your mouth.  Laurel is not protecting her father, she is treating him like a child.  If Quentin is strong enough to run the police department, he is strong enough to hear the truth about Sara. And I am beyond pissed at the idea that Laurel gets to mourn for Sara, but Quentin and Dinah do not.  Laurel's actions are not okay, they are not acceptable,  they're complete and utter bullshit.

 

Hi Nyssa!  Please feel free to punch Oliver any time the spirit moves you.  Also, do not listen to Laurel, she is an idiot.  Tell Quentin, Sara is dead.  He has a right to know.

 

Malcolm, you were the saving grace this episode.  Go on with your batshit crazy self!  "No prison can hold me, so you have to let me go."  And Oliver falls for that…sometimes that boy is dumb as a box of rocks.

 

Diggle, when Felicity said any idiot could run her tracking program, she wasn't talking about you.  Clearly, she meant Oliver (see above) or Roy "it's a blank piece of paper" Harper! :)

 

I liked Roy's scenes with Thea, but I still think his superhero costume is ridiculous.

Edited October 30, 2014 by MsSchadenfreude

[apinknightmare]

http://jemmmasimmons.co.vu/post/101305468260

 

Hmmm. I sort of agree but I sort of disagree. I don't know how I feel about this :p

 

It is somewhat annoying that after her realization that she almost killed an "innocent" man in Komodo because she was all bloodthirsty and hell-bent on revenge, Laurel goes all gung-ho on Oliver to murder Merlyn when she thinks he's the killer without having any real evidence. Although I'll handwave that since Merlyn is a terrible person and was responsible for the earthquake that took all those lives, and it probably is a bit more personal for her not only because Tommy died (was that mentioned tonight? I can't remember), but because she failed to prosecute Moira for her hand in the very same crime that Malcolm was actually the mastermind of. So, it was inconsistent, but understandable in this case.

 

Although I would like to see her go after him as the DA - is that too much to ask?!

Edited October 30, 2014 by apinknightmare

[manbearpig]

Well, presumably most people in Starling City want Malcolm dead anyway. Laurel's opinions on the Arrow and murder are a bit wishy washy, but considering that Merlyn destroyed the Glades, killed more than five hundred people, indirectly led to the death of her boyfriend/his son, and as far as Laurel knew during this episode, had just murdered her sister, so I can see why she would want him dead.

 

I also think the whole situation is so fucked up that Laurel thinking illogically isn't necessarily that, um, illogical, considering the circumstances. Her sister just got murdered and she wants the person responsible to suffer. Unfortunately they seem to think a different person did it every episode, but I can see why she wants closure. I Laurel a lot though.

 

Have to say that Ra's left almost no impression on me. At least Nyssa is still damn fun though.

Edited October 30, 2014 by manbearpig

[dtissagirl]

The most important questions I got from this episode are:

1. Where exactly does Oliver think Thea is living?

2. Where exactly does Thea think Oliver is living?

Not knowing is killing me, you guys.

[benteen]

Laurel wanting Malcolm dead was the only thing about her character that made any sense and the only thing she was right about over Oliver.

[manbearpig]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if that was Caity Lotz's voice we heard when Quentin phoned Sara and left her a message? It didn't sound like her to me...

[ban1o]

Yeah to be honest I can't blame Laurel that much for wanting Merlyn dead. Maybe I can't appreciate a good villain, he's still a bad guy who killed a shitlaod of innocent people to avenge his wife's death. S1 Oliver probably would have killed Merlyn easily. (not that tat's a necessarily good thing) but it makes complete sense and I still call BS on him just letting Merlyn roam around Sterling City. 

 

Anyway I thought this was pretty weak episode over all, in my opinion.  Too much of Merlyn killed Sara...wait no he didn't and was surprisingly dull. LOL maybe it was the lack of Felicity :P  (but not really the writing was just all over the place)

Edited October 30, 2014 by ban1o

[Shanna]

The most important questions I got from this episode are:

1. Where exactly does Oliver think Thea is living?

2. Where exactly does Thea think Oliver is living?

Not knowing is killing me, you guys.

Oliver is not the brightest bulb. Maybe he thinks hshes living at the club? (Can I say, the new lair looks shockingly similar to the old lair. )

He probably thought she was Paying For that mansion and servants in Corto Maltese on her salary as a waitres too...

As for laurel, it is one thing to want someone dead, it is quite another to go around demanding other people murder him. Even people like Nyssa who you barely know. (At least she is consistently demanding. Has she ever heard the word please? ) She is also an officer of the court, which should at least mean she has some obligation to the law and if she doesn't it should be dealt with as a thing.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Shanna

[apinknightmare]

Oliver is not the brightest bulb. Maybe he thinks hshes living at the club? (Can I say, the new lair looks shockingly similar to the old lair. )

 

That's because it IS the old lair.

[quarks]

Show, I'm usually not one to advocate for the death of women characters, but if Amanda Waller is not dead by the end of the season, we are going to have a problem.

 

Good things:

 

1. Nyssa: Awesome throughout, even when she wasn't being the voice of most of the Arrow fandom: "You aren't fit to wear that jacket!"  Also hitting Oliver in the face.  I think I speak for many when I say we were all behind you on that one, Nyssa.  Go, Nyssa, go!  (Also, she's hot.)

 

2. Nyssa bought Sara that jacket.  Sniffle. 

 

3. Felicity has made little nanotracking arrow bots. I realize this makes no sense whatsoever, and they didn't exactly work, but nanontracking arrow bots.  With a system that even an idiot can run. Diggle, based on this episode, I feel certain she was referring to Oliver or Roy, not you.

 

4. Parkour stunts aside - seriously, Roy, why not just go after Nyssa instead of doing that truck thing?  Arrow writers/stunt crew, you don't always have to go for the cool stuff - and getting knocked out yet again, which does seem to be his role on this show, Roy, once again taking the skeptical, mature approach. I like this. Keep this up, Roy.

 

5. Thea offering the assistant manager job to Roy. I'm guessing this is actually an attempt on her side to keep an eye on someone she knows is working with the Arrow, but it was still a nice moment.  And being all grateful to her dad for, uh, saving her. I'm really liking what the show is doing with Thea this season.

 

6. Diggle. I end pretty much every episode with "This show needs more Diggle," and this wasn't an exception. His "uh, you do realize Malcolm's not really the sweetest, nicest guy in the world" speech was on target.

 

7. Malcolm Merlyn, happily chewing up the scenery.

 

8. Oliver sticking to the no kill rule despite some major provocation there.  I mean, ok, Malcolm may not have killed Sara, but he DEFINITELY killed Tommy.

 

9. The League of Assassins lair. That place looked pretty cool.

 

10. Malcolm: "We need to clear a few things up." Not said, but implied: "Which in this group, I guess can only be accomplished with arrows."  Plus his explanation to Oliver about why he had no motive to kill Sara, which was just nutty enough that I didn't believe him.

 

11. Arrow versus the League of Assassins! YAY!

 

12. On a small note, I did like that this time around, Oliver gave Felicity her space with Barry. And that Felicity didn't just take off - she left Team Arrow with tools. That Malcolm used against Team Arrow, but still.

 

13. Almost forgot - Quentin giving the cops bar money. Heh.

 

Questionable things:

 

1. Did that poor kid ever get his candy?  And seriously, Oliver, stooping to bribing a kid with candy to make him disobey his parents? I know you were desperate, but seriously?

 

2.  Oliver knived a guy in public and didn't get a single spot of blood on him? Not one? 

 

3. Look, show, I'm willing to handwave a lot. But for two seasons now, you have had every character on this show and most of the extras happily standing or sitting around watching the Starling City local news. What I'm saying is, they would have seen Malcolm's face on the news. I get the whole hiding in a crowd thing, really I do, but someone should have said, huh, that guy looks familiar.  Especially since this show has also made a point out of the fact that when Oliver Queen goes out in public, people do recognize him - and he's not infamous for murdering 500 plus people.  

 

4. I'm ambivalent on Ra's Al Ghul so far. 

 

5. I'm actually ok with spreading out the Who Killed Sara storyline, but honestly, show, if you are going to do this, it might help to provide more clues.

 

Bad things:

 

1. Holy )(*)^)()(**() )(*)(*)(*, Amanda Waller. I will try to overlook your very mean comments about airline travel since, hey, I don't like transpacific flights either. So we're on the same page there.

 

But you actually hired a bunch of men to live out on a hellhole island WITH LAND MINES for several months, just to bring down ONE PERSON on an specific flight? What if China White hadn't gotten on that plane? And that's without even considering the civilian casualties involved. And worse, we've actually seen China White in action. I agree she's a villain, a Triad leader, and an assassin, but compared to a number of other people on this show, she's really not all that bad. Or, for that matter, invincible - Oliver's scared her off or taken her down more than once. 

 

2. Oliver, if you are going to stop lying to Thea, you should probably - I don't know - stop lying to Thea. 

 

3. Thea's upside down hair. Show, let us never do that again. 

 

And now, Laurel.

 

Katie Cassidy's been saying how much she's been looking forward to getting involved in the action plots, and the first chance she has to be involved in an action plot where it would make sense for Laurel to be involved....she's not involved in the action plot and once again mostly sidelined and hobbled with inconsistent speeches all over the place.

 

Sigh.

 

Number of times Laurel fails as a human being this episode: 1, Jumping down Nyssa's throat at her sister's grave. Laurel, there is a time and place for this, and a graveyard isn't that place. 2, Still failing to tell her father that Sara is dead. Exactly how long do you think you can keep this deception up, Laurel, especially now that you know that they were in contact and he has a number for her?  And yes, I get that he has a heart condition, but he's been cleared to work at a police station, which by definition is a stressful job, so yes, I think he can handle this. More than he'll be able to handle finding out AND finding out that Laurel has been lying to him.   3, Getting after Oliver for not killing Malcolm. Laurel, Oliver kinda did kill Malcolm once before, remember? You even told Oliver and yelled at the Hood about this, telling both of them that Tommy died because he got caught in a fight between two archers.  Now, if you want to tell Oliver that he really, really needs to work on his "how to tell if people are actually dead" skills, I'm with you. 4, Getting after Oliver with "Anything else you want to tell me about?" Laurel, you are lying to your coworkers on a daily basis about knowing the Arrow, you are lying to your father about the death of his own daughter, you have shown yourself to be unreliable on more than one occasion, and, honestly, not that many people needed to know about Thea/Malcolm.  5, Telling Oliver that Malcolm is still a killer, which....Laurel, you haven't seen him lately. and your major interaction with him before this was having an uncomfortable dinner with Tommy. Why are you wasting time telling Oliver things he already knows?  

 

And of course the switch between "You have to kill him! Do whatever it takes!" to the "maybe not, then," did the character no favors.

 

But the long term concern is we are now three episodes into this storyline, and it's still not clear what role Laurel plays on this show.  The show made it clear that Felicity is useful even when she's barely in the episode. But Laurel, once again, was not.  The only information Laurel brought was something that ordinarily Felicity finds; it could easily have been brought up by Diggle this episode.  Laurel didn't go out into the field. She did not contribute a single idea.  Voice of reason? Well, the show has Diggle, Felicity, Roy, Quentin, Ray and even Malcolm for that. Voice of non-reason?  The show has Nyssa, Malcolm, and assorted villains for that. Confrontational/inspirational speeches? Well, this episode did give her those, but not only did Laurel just completely shift gears mid episode from GO KILL to OK DON'T GO KILL, about half those speeches were narratively unnecessary.  Oliver doesn't need to be told that Malcolm is a killer: The show had already told us, more than once, that Malcolm had murdered hundreds of people, and Oliver has personally fought with him before.  Nyssa doesn't need to be told to go kill Malcolm and do whatever it takes; she's an assassin.

 

Which meant that even in an episode focusing on catching her sister's murderer - an episode that honestly I expected Laurel to be heavily involved in - once again, Laurel could only be involved by taking over the roles of other people in the show, and doing a lesser job at that, and spent most of the episode sidelined, with limited screentime, and doing very little except against that punching bag.

 

I know what everyone else is doing on this show, even Amanda Waller. Three episodes into the Laurel Becomes Black Canary storyline and I still don't know what she's doing. 

[ban1o]

 

4. Parkour stunts aside - seriously, Roy, why not just go after Nyssa instead of doing that truck thing?  Arrow writers/stunt crew, you don't always have to go for the cool stuff - and getting knocked out yet again, which does seem to be his role on this show, Roy, once again taking the skeptical, mature approach. I like this. Keep this up, Roy.

 

LOL the black flip off the car was truly ridiculous. I loled. This stunt crew has to dial it down a little with Roy's parkour. But yeah in general I'm liking Roy this season. 

Edited October 30, 2014 by ban1o

[quarks]

Forgot one more note: Shows, I realize you are going to be using the same sets a lot, and it's been kinda fun watching the camera angles and set changes you're using.

 

But having Flash use two Arrow sets last night, and then have Arrow use a Flash set tonight and not even bothering to rearrange the coffee tables made me wonder for a moment if Oliver/Thea had popped over to Central City for their coffee, and why. I'll work harder on my suspension of disbelief if you work harder on this.

[foreverevolving]

Is it bad that the only two reactions i have right now is to Fakanary?

 

pulling up security feeds like she was lite-Felicity..

(ETA: when last week she barely knew how to google that guy phone number!!!! and had to ask Felicity to find it.)*

 

I literally froze and:

 

So yea, that pulled me out of the show for a few minutes.

 

 

And Nyssa Telling her she is unfit to wear the jacket:

 

 

 

 

oh and of course anything Malcolm, cause he's a BSCrazy SOB that i love unconditionally.

 

 

ETA: this was the first episode this season where i think i spaced out a bit, or just nothing really register. cause it's been almost 2 hours since i finished watching the episode and... pretty much nothing.

oh! Somebody please tell Lance about Sara, his phone call was the only scene where i felt emotions. everything else was... whatever.

Nyssa was a somewhat guiding light along with Malcolm and Lance. everyone else were okay.

 

* No show. just. NO (on the pre gif Fakanary stuff). Continuity. Either she's dumber pre island Ollie or she's a smart woman who graduated law school... And this is why i can never care for her, together with KC stupid soulmate remarks. sure we all have out dumb moments, but.. this is 2014 she's an educated woman in her late 20's who has lived/living in an urban city, she has a pretty nice touch screen phone and now she can pull security feeds... you want to tell me she doesn't know how to find a person phone number? ugh.

please ship her off somewhere. she's killing my show.

they could have saved that scene by her saying she went got it from one of the guys she's familiar with who monitors the cameras in the city.

Whatever.

 

Tonight episode just proved how much Arrow needs Felicity!! she just makes it better.

 

For me Arrow is a guilty pleasure show, that - for its channel- is really good (but not when compering to other shows i watch) which i love very much and am currently obsessed with. But tonight showed me that the major attraction for me on the show is the interaction of anything Felicity related. Team arrow, DigglexFelicity, Olicity, Smoaking Captain (is it bad i have a lancexfelicity ship name?), and... yea anything felicity. the day she is written off will probably be the day i will not return either.

 

i'm looking forward to next week.

Edited October 30, 2014 by foreverevolving

[popgoesculture]

I've been trying to give season 3 a chance, but this ep makes it so hard and painful (and forces me to write about it). Katrina Law/Nyssa was everything that is wonderful, and her love of Sara was the only part of the ep I like... the rest made no sense. Why would Oliver protect Merlyn? Not kill him, sure, but why not give him to the League or let Nyssa take him? Why would he trust Merlyn swearing on his daughter's life, when Merlyn killed his OWN son and was basically terrible to him? And what's with the Queens' disappearing fortune (and why is Oliver so dumb about a) the note in Sara's boot and b) his "broke" sister staying in a really nice house in Corto Maltese and c) basically everything)? 

 

I get that the show takes a lot of leaps throughout logic land, but this is too much, all in the name of some forced mystery about Sara's killer, which is a total waste of story time. The real mystery is why the Big Bad Ra's al Ghul has a noticeably Australian accent.

 

 

[Chaser]

So many mixed emotions. I don't really understand Oliver protecting Malcolm. I know he is Thea's father and he saved her that night, but he is still Malcolm. The Mass Murderer. That being said, I like that he didn't kill him because it would be such a back slide to season 1. I hated that Diggle was on Kill Malcolm. He witnessed first hand who Oliver was and he should know it would set Oliver down a slippery slope. That felt OOC to me. Oliver shouldn't kill him, but he shouldn't be allowing him to walk free either.

 

Laurel was all over the place again. Cold Angry and Harsh/Apologetic and Understanding (which felt more manipulative to me then genuine). Logically I understand her position on Malcolm, but this girl has not learned her lesson. She is still wanting to charge in unloaded-guns-a-blazing. She was basically trying to contract a hit this episode. Also, was she really going to tell her father about Sara at the police station? What in the world?

 

I loved Nyssa. Loved that it was all about Sara for her. That is a connection I believe. I did not like her turn around on Laurel. It looks like Nyssa will be popping in to mentor Laurel and I hate that. Sara would be turning in her grave. I really wanted a fight between Thea and Nyssa. That's on my must have this season list.

 

I missed Felicity a lot this episode. I missed Team Arrow. 

 

Loved the stunts….with the exception of Roy being a drama queen.

 

ETA: I spaced on Ra's. Pretty sure that's a fail on the shows part.

Edited October 30, 2014 by 10Eleven12

[thuganomics85]

What the hell?  Are you telling me that Malcolm Merlyn can just stroll around Starling City, and no one fucking notices him?  No one?!  Not one single damn person!  The guy who one of the richest guys outside the Queens, and a mass terrorist?  Bull fucking shit, show. Don't insult my intelligence like that.  That entire thing just pissed me off.  I get you have to hand-wave some stuff on superhero shows, but this is just ridiculous.

 

So, after Laurel almost killed Komodo even though he was innocent of Sara's death, she was willing to do the same with Malcolm, despite no clear evidence yet.  And, yet?  She (And. Nyssa.  And Diggle.  And Roy), were actually right.  Letting Malcolm walk is just a bad, bad idea.  Yeah, yeah, I get it, Ollie.  You're on a "No Killing" phase.  But, hey, you broke it before, when it was necessary (Count Vertigo), and I think Malcolm is perfectly an acceptable reason.  You know damn well he is up to no good.  No telling what he will do now.  Not to mention, you've now just pissed of Ra's and the League, so they're probably going to stroll in Starling City any day now.  Hate to say it, but if this causes massive chaos and death, Ollie is going to be responsible for a lot of it.

 

Then, there is the Quentin thing.  These morons are still keeping him in the dark.  Give us hope with Nyssa, but she ends up falling in line as well.  This just makes me hate Laurel, which shouldn't be happening.  Oh, and now he's calling Sara, and not getting an answer.  Yeah, he's going to find out.  And be heartbroken.  This whole thing infuriates me.

 

Barely any Diggle.  Felicity only gets one line.  Never a good thing, in my book.

 

But, hey, I did like three things.  First, John Barrowman was delightful as always.  Second, I'm loving Thea, and how she is totally playing Ollie, Roy, and the rest.  Willa Holland seems to be having way more fun with this story-line then her others, and is shining in it too.  I also loved her mouthing off to Nyssa, when she was captured.  Thea has suddenly gotten awesome.

 

Finally was, of course, Nyssa.  Katrina Law is just so badass, beautiful, and can make me care for a psychotic daughter of "The Demon."  I would say that I wished she was a regular, but considering how this season's been going, I almost wished Katrina Law found a better superhero gig elsewhere.  Like The Flash.  Or Gotham.  Or, and I can't believe I am saying this, Agents of Shield.  But, I'll try to enjoy it for now, even if it requires her to prop up Laurel. 

 

The flashbacks are a bore.  I miss Slade.

 

Trying to keep an open mind, but I wasn't impressed with the brief glimpse of Ra's.  I almost hope this story ends with Nyssa offing him, and taking over the LOA.

 

I can't say I "hated" this episode, due to Nyssa/Katrina Law, but I just found a lot of this to be pretty stupid.

Edited October 30, 2014 by thuganomics85

[ban1o]

I've been trying to give season 3 a chance, but this ep makes it so hard and painful (and forces me to write about it). Katrina Law/Nyssa was everything that is wonderful, and her love of Sara was the only part of the ep I like... the rest made no sense. Why would Oliver protect Merlyn? Not kill him, sure, but why not give him to the League or let Nyssa take him? Why would he trust Merlyn swearing on his daughter's life, when Merlyn killed his OWN son and was basically terrible to him? And what's with the Queens' disappearing fortune (and why is Oliver so dumb about a) the note in Sara's boot and b) his "broke" sister staying in a really nice house in Corto Maltese and c) basically everything)? 

 

I get that the show takes a lot of leaps throughout logic land, but this is too much, all in the name of some forced mystery about Sara's killer, which is a total waste of story time. The real mystery is why the Big Bad Ra's al Ghul has a noticeably Australian accent.

OMG I agree so much on everything you said Malcolm was TERRIBLE to Tommy. I know he loved him in his own twisted way but Oliver knows how he treated Tommy and was basically responsible for his death I don't know why he trusts Malcolm's "love" for Thea. In fact Oliver doesn't even know that Thea has a relationship with Thea so Malcolm is kind of stalking her in a way as far as he knows which  is really creepy. In fact I don't know why you would trust a crazy psycho terrorist, period. And yeah how on earth does he think Thea was living in a mansion in Corto Maltese? On that hand, where are either of them living now? Why doesn't he ask her? This show just takes so many leaps in logic, it's ridiculous lol. 

Edited October 30, 2014 by ban1o

[BkWurm1]

Does Laurel not have a "normal" mode?  I swear all we've seen this year is her so mad or so sad or so anxious that she's always shaking like she a freaking Chihuahua.  She's not out for answers, she's out for payback and I really don't think she cares as long as she can tell herself that Sara's killer is dead and not only dead, but that she, Dinah Laurel Lance helped! 

 

That jacket...beyond that question of whether she is fit to wear it...it clearly does NOT fit.  It looks stupid on her.

 

I did enjoy that the call back bit of dialogue "do whatever it takes" is delivered to Nyssa and not Oliver.  That relieved me.  One of the most cruel things they did on Smallville was take some of the favorite moments or lines from one pairing (Chlark) and recreated them for the "canon" couple in the later seasons.  The worst kind of retcon I've gone through. 

 

Roy made me laugh when he did his fancy little flip and Nyssa just stuck a tranque in him.  The flip was a waste of time but it did make him hitting the ground funnier.  As did Thea just basically rolling her eyes and letting herself be kidnapped.  Speaking of...how does she NOT recognize he brother as the Arrow?  Sigh.

 

Have I mentioned how much I did NOT like Laurel in the lair and no Felicity?  The vibe was all kinds of wrong. 

 

As for Oliver's declaration that Merlyn is under his protection, I took it to mean that he didn't want the LoA operating in Starling, period, so stay the hell away from Merlyn or the Arrow would get involved.  Oliver did say he wanted to keep him close to get more answers from him, I have to believe that is why he did not bother trying to arrest him rather than the BS MM was spouting.

 

Hong Kong bores me.  The flashbacks bore me.  I don't care about China White not dying in the plane that was not shot down.  The only interesting thing was that Waller had been watching Oliver...and obviously not sharing her intel with her man on the ground or they would have had a lot easier time finding him.  I have expectation that eventually the past is going to affect the present but right now all I see is that stupid ass hair and Oliver the bum Queen still running around looking like he hasn't seen a shower in three years.

 

I cried a little when Quentin left his message...somewhere in his heart, he knows.  I'm soooo happy that Sara did contact her father thought it's interesting that she met with both Laurel and her dad and told each of them not to mention her being in town.  Laurel's hear condition excuse is just that an excuse.  Quentin is managing his issues and quite well or he wouldn't be feaking Captain. 

 

According to Nyssa when she arrived, it had only been two weeks since Sara left to go to Starling City so she's only been dead two weeks and one day.  A lot has happened since then.

 

Continuity!  Felicity is wearing the same dress she wore home from Central City.

 

Speaking of Central City, I'm pretty sure the coffee shop Oliver and Thea met in is the same stage/shop that Iris works at (just with a name change) which is the one where Felicity and Barry had trivia night.

 

One other Felicity comment...I missed you, oh, how I missed you.

 

Ra's rising up out of his tub had to be a nod to the Lazurus pits, right?  For like five seconds I thought maybe Nyssa had brought Sara to them and..then the Aussie started talking and my pitiful dreams were dashed. 

 

So does Nyssa really believe Merlyn killed Sara or does she now suspect her father had a hand in it?  Am I supposed to think Ra's had a hand in it?

 

Not sure, don't know.    

[Chaser]

Really amused that when Felicity left they had the most Logic Fail episode to date. I get she is the genius, but really show? LOL

Edited October 30, 2014 by 10Eleven12

[hogwash]

Thea lying to Oliver. Dreams do come true.

 

I really love how seamlessly Nyssa fits into the show. She just shows up and fits right in despite being a complete weirdo/psycho. The snarking with Captain Lance (will someone tell him, already?), the fighting, the ruthlessness. She’s perfect.

 

I’m also happy Merlyn’s back in Starling City. I hope he stays forever. Oliver is still monumentally stupid and shortsighted, but I don’t think this is gonna backfire as badly as the Moira/Undertaking or Slade/Mirakuru thing. Mostly because I really don’t think Merlyn murdered Sara. (Full disclosure: my enjoyment of this season pretty much hinges on it not being Thea who did it. DO NOT screw with me on this, show!) Merlyn’s a nutbag with a very specific code of honor (loosely speaking). I don’t really see why he would give care enough to kill a lowly member of the League and expose himself. Seems a little small time for a megalomaniac like him. I hope the several times they mentioned the Undertaking as the (other) reason the League wants Merlyn dead means Oliver’s stupid/shortsighted decision won’t lead to the city getting destroyed yet again. It gets old.

 

The no-killing thing is going in a really weird direction. I didn’t see Oliver protesting when Sara recruited the League of ASSASAINS to fight the Mirakuru crapola or going to bat for Isabelle Rochev. Even without Sara’s murder, the League has a pretty good reason to want Merlyn dead. So why protect him? It probably has more to do with Thea (3 dead parents is a little much) than anything, but Oliver doesn't think Thea knows Merlyn's alive so... It also wasn’t very clear why some characters were so sure that Merlyn killed Sara. Merlyn’s definitely a dick but a little more substantial proof than that would have been nice.

 

I still don’t understand what…exactly Laurel is doing? This bloodlust/vengeance is just as stupid as it was in 302/303. I can kinda see where they’re going with it and I’m still definitely not interested. Someone make it stop.

 

Thea continues to be awesome. The show is actually doing a really good job with her. I’m so excited to see where this all goes and where she ends up at the end of season—unlike another previously shafted character... I hope she finds out that Oliver is the Arrow soon. I have a feeling it’ll actually be good (Diggle/Tommy/Felicity finding out) and not monumentally stupid (Laurel/Roy finding out).

[benteen]

The only way to justify Malcolm being alive is to make Oliver stupid.  Mission accomplished.

 

Malcolm can apparently hang out in public without altering his looks and get away with it too.

 

No Presence Waller blowing up an entire plane to kill one person in a completely unsuspicious way is consistent with her idiotic plan to nuke Starling City because a "massive" army of 50 super-strong guys was running amok.  Seriously, how is she given any power to do things when he methods are so stupid?  She's literally the type to burn down a city to win a battle.

[quarks]

Speaking of Central City, I'm pretty sure the coffee shop Oliver and Thea met in is the same stage/shop that Iris works at (just with a name change) which is the one where Felicity and Barry had trivia night.

 

It was. They didn't even change the table arrangements and the chairs, though they did change the camera filter and one sign and moved one of the coffee makers. I blinked. 

 

Though to be fair, Flash has been using at least one set from Arrow every episode, and both shows are using each other's extras with one show getting them in the morning and the other show getting them at night, so I suppose it's just fair that Arrow used the Flash set.

 

[Edited because coffee makers aren't tables, and if I'd had enough coffee before typing this up originally, I would have known that.]

Edited October 30, 2014 by quarks

[Lila82]

I've been relatively indifferent to Laurel for three seasons, but I think this episode broke me.  Maybe it was because I had just watched this week's "The Flash," particularly Felicity's most excellent speech about how Team Arrow came together.  It was a process, as they learned each other's rhythms established trust.  Every time they showed the Arrow Lair, Laurel couldn't have been more out of place and to the point of distraction.   Or maybe it's the pants suits.  

 

Nyssa just gets more beautiful with each episode.  

[NumberCruncher]

Meh. For all the hype we got for that Oliver/Merlyn two-years-in-the-making confrontation, I was underwhelmed. The same goes for the episode as a whole. Nyssa was definitely the MVP but even she seemed OOC to me. I don't believe for one minute that she would be cheering Laurel on given their history. Speaking of Laurel...WTF? Writers, please help her make a decision/take a direction and stick with it. I know she's been inconsistently written, but why is she now contradicting herself IN THE EXACT SAME EPISODE?

I know it's not a majority viewpoint but I didn't see Oliver's reaction to "What did I miss?" as anything other than being disappointed at all the shit going on around Merlyn/Sara's murder/the LoA. And really? They trotted out Felicity for 30 seconds for that? Lame.

Finally, that's who's supposed to be the big bad for this season? He was scarier in the SDCC preview and we never even heard his voice or saw his face there. I'm starting to wonder why the producers have a thing for Aussies/Kiwis playing the big villains--it's rather strange as I certainly don't find those accents the least bit menacing.

Dammit! This season has been a letdown so far and it's making me sad. Everything just seems so off. I hope the quality improves ASAP because I want to be excited for what comes next, not left waiting to be entertained.

[foreverevolving]

I don't care about China White not dying in the plane that was not shot down.  The only interesting thing was that Waller had been watching Oliver.

 

Am I the only one who for a second was sure the person on the plane was either Malcolm or Ra's?! or someone else equally as bad?

seeing china white was like hearing how amazing the coffee at the new artisan coffee shop is, only to go there and find out their coffee is Starbucks like bitter cause they use shitty burned coffee beans like Starbucks does. (can you tell i'm not a huge SB lover? i only drink it - and always flavor it!- cause we have them on campus, the only other option in a minute walking distance is DD and that dirty wet sock sewage of water is not fit for human, animal or anything consumption- but i'm a coffee snub.. :-))

 

Oh yea.. i forgot about the watching thing.

 

and yes someone please give Oliver new clothes, and wash his hair. it kind of looked nice a couple of episodes ago and now it's back to Island awfulness, which made sense on the island but not in HK. I wonder if it was during this episode that Stephen went home on flashback hair and ended up scaring his daughter... i can understand why, Mavi i'm with you kid, that hair scares me too.

Edited October 30, 2014 by foreverevolving

[Lantern7]

I like Malcolm out and about. I get the logic fail about that, but John Barrowman can't play guys who would be captured easily. How awesome is he? I am convinced that Laurel would be redeemed if she makes out with Malcolm. I know . . . bigger logic fail, and icky given her relationship with Tommy, but Barrowman is that magical. Full minute, tongue optional.

 

Why didn't Nyssa burn the jacket? Seriously, shut up, Laurel. Shut up, shut up, shut uppity uppity shaddup. You suck, you almost got Thea killed, you're not gonna be the Black Canary, shut up.

 

Man, I miss Felicity. She was great last night on The Flash, and she probably deserves to be Barry Allen's soulmate, but we need her here to potentially dope-slap anybody stupid on this show. She'd probably hurt herself doing it (can't crack her knuckles without pain), but she's our girl. She's the Anti-Laurel.

 

Didn't realize we'd have a Tatsu in the flashbacks. Doesn't bode well for her future. And damn, Amanda Waller is a stuck-up little twig, isn't she?

[steelyis]

I'm conflicted about this episode. It worked for the most part. Katrina Law is a pleasure to watch, in every sense of the word, and I liked how Nyssa worked with Team Arrow. It was almost like having Sara back. And the regular cast was perfect. But there was too much Laurel and, as usual, she brought the episode down.

 

KC's performance didn't help. When she wasn't staring blankly she was ACTING! It really stood out every time she had a scene with Katrina Law who exudes charisma and has real screen presence. KL was working her ass off trying to engage KC, but it was like Law was acting against a null void. The only time KC emoted naturally was when she talked about killing Merlyn. But even that was ruined for me because Laurel not long ago tortured an innocent victim and attempted to murder another man who turned out to be not guilty of killing Sara. Laurel's rashness makes her look unbalanced and like she's incapable of learning from her mistakes, or that she's even aware she's making them. It's annoying.

 

I'm giving Oliver a pass on not killing Merlyn. As much as he tickles me with his batshitcrazy, Malcolm deserves comeuppance. I wouldn't have begrudged Nyssa if she wasted Merlyn, but Oliver swore not to kill to honor Tommy so I understand why he wouldn't break that promise (again) by killing Tommy's father.

Edited October 30, 2014 by steelyis

[Chaser]

It just occurred to me that Felicity was coming down the stairs as Nyssa was going up. We could have had a Nyssa/Felicity scene. WHAT THE HELL WRITERS???

[Ann Mack]

All I have to say is can anyone on the show kindly remove Sara's jacket from Laurel's useless (I want to be a hero too) body and then violently shove her in front of several speeding arrows, please!!!

[Jediknight]

The no-killing thing is going in a really weird direction. I didn’t see Oliver protesting when Sara recruited the League of ASSASAINS to fight the Mirakuru crapola or going to bat for Isabelle Rochev. Even without Sara’s murder, the League has a pretty good reason to want Merlyn dead. So why protect him?

The Mirakuru soldiers were tearing through the city and were killing people, they weren't going to stop.  Their deaths were the only way to stop them, same with Isabel.  With Malcolm he had contacted Oliver to explain that he was innocent, and when Oliver had him dead to rights, Malcolm didn't have his bow trained on Oliver and gave himself up.  He also turned his back to Oliver.

 

It's like Diggle not killing an unarmed Deadshot last season, despite the fact Deadshot had killed his brother, his honor wouldn't let him do that.  Oliver's honor is growing.

[kdm07]

but considering how this season's been going, I almost wished Katrina Law found a better superhero gig elsewhere.  Like The Flash.  Or Gotham. Or, and I can't believe I am saying this, Agents of Shield.  But, I'll try to enjoy it for now, even if it requires her to prop up Laurel. 

De-lurking to say that AoS is kicking Arrow's ass at the moment. The addition of Agent Bobbi Morse has elevated AoS while subtracting Sara Lance has dragged Arrow to No. 3 on my comic TV shows list (1st being AoS, 2nd being The Flash).

 

I appreciate everyone else's input though and it's helping me decide whether or not to watch this episode due to Nyssa being back.

Edited October 30, 2014 by kdm07

[Password]

I appreciate everyone else's input though and it's helping me decide whether or not to watch this episode due to Nyssa being back.

Me too.

[NumberCruncher]

De-lurking to say that AoS is kicking Arrow's ass at the moment. The addition of Agent Bobbi Morse has elevated AoS while subtracting Sara Lance has dragged Arrow to No. 3 on my comic TV shows list (1st being AoS, 2nd being The Flash).

TBH I'm rewatching last night's awesome Flash episode right now to cleanse my soul.

[calliope1975]

I started fast forwarding when the Show expected me to believe that Oliver and/or Felicity wouldn't have figured out a blank piece of paper wasn't a blank piece of paper 2.5 seconds after finding it. I can hand wave a lot of things on this show, but I can't accept making previously intelligent characters stupid.

 

Malcolm doesn't seem like the type to live inconspicuously so he's just going to live like a normal dude who didn't murder half a city? No. 

 

I like Nyssa...but skipped most of her scenes with Laurel. What I did see of her makes me think I would love to watch a LoA show with KL as the lead. I like Thea so I guess there's that. Diggle's always awesomesauce. 

 

I'm bummed that instead of being excited for the past 3 episodes, they've become a chore to watch. I'm hoping next week will be as good as it should be. 

Edited October 30, 2014 by calliope1975

[catrox14]

SHUT UP LAUREL. SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP.

 

Gods. you do NOT get show up and tell Oliver what to do. Gods. She is awful.  I cheered and victory armed when Nyssa said she wasn't worthy of Sara's jacket. Hellz yeah

 

Loved everything between Malcolm and Oliver. I think Barrowman is just killing it as Malcolm. So glad he's back.

 

Oh Oliver :(. You killed a man. That made me so sad. But I have to say SA is doing such a great job with the shadings between douche!Ollie, Island!Ollie and HongKong!Ollie and Oliver.  Seriously good stuff from him. 

 

I LOVED Oliver's face when Felicity showed up again. He looked so happy and relieved to see her but couldn't show all of it. 

 

I liked everything but Laurel. I've decided she is BipolarCanary. I really wanted Oliver to tell her to get the fuck out of the Arrowcave and shut her pie hole.  I cannot believe she STILL isn't telling Lance the truth. She is horrible.

 

And Paul Blackthorne was the MVP of the episode. I got teary when he was calling Sarah. I think he knows in his heart something is very wrong.

Edited October 30, 2014 by catrox14

[Carrie Ann]

Merlyn and Nyssa were great, and I actually really liked the episode. I liked the flashbacks, for once, because I liked Oliver taking some control back and being proactive about his situation. I also liked getting the Fyers and China White bits, because it's nice to connect things now and again. Lots of Season 1 callbacks this episode, which I enjoyed.

 

But, you know, yeah, there's something missing on the show, and that's the OT3 Team Arrow dynamic. Felicity being gone hurt the energy of the episode. I actually think it would have been OK for her to miss this one, because there was so much going on, had she not been so removed from Episode 3 as well.

 

The other negative: sigh. Nyssa was used to prop Laurel, as we all predicted, and what a bummer after such a great start. Also, the scene with Quentin leaving the VM for Sara just about killed me, and I honestly don't understand WHAT they are doing there, if not trying to make us angry at Laurel for not telling him. SOMEONE. TELL. QUENTIN AND DINAH. Now. At this point, it's probably going to be Merlyn or someone like that, and it will happen to turn him against the Arrow and make me sad, and once again I will blame Laurel and ARGH.

[olicityfan25]

I'm really starting to get pissed off that Laurel and KC have been elevated even more than she was. It's really disgusting that boners they have for her on that show.

 

While others like Diggle and Felicity are pushed back for the sake of them telling an inconsistent, whacked ass storyline that nobody could give two shits about.

 

I liked Roy and Thea. Nyssa was great. I just hate that they had to make her character cower to the likes of fakanary.

[Artsda]

Episodes that has no Felicity should never happen again, that wasn't that good. The good, Katrina Law filled in nicely, would love to keep her on and get rid of Laurel. The bad? Laurel, is she supposed to be a bad evil or good? I can't tell when she says lines like Merlyn should be "put down". Isn't she a law abiding DA, yet she's very "murder" happy and thinking she's above the law. Then trying to force Oliver to do what she wants too. 

 

Thea's saying "dad" on the cell phone when Roy was right below was stupid.

 

Oliver lying to Thea about not knowing what Nyssa wanted her? Stupid Oliver, he hasn't learned a thing and he lied knowing Merlyn's out there too with the truth and could easily tell Thea it all. 

 

Merlyn killing Tommy was brought up a lot this episode, more than probably all year. I think it's giving off a hint that Tommy could not have been killed by Merlyn and that Tommy is tied to Sara's death, possibly even the killer.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Artsda

[BkWurm1]

It was. They didn't even change the table arrangements and the chairs, though they did change the camera filter and one sign and moved one of the coffee tables. I blinked.

 

They should just own it and pretend it's a chain store with identical layout. 

[rue721]

- Why bring back this club storyline? Is it a CW mandate because it's boring.

 

Maybe Thea is setting it up to use it as her/Malcolm's secret lair, too? AWKWARD. At least Roy will have an easy commute.

 

This episode was incredibly boring, I zoned out for most of it.

 

In the past, I've really liked the flashbacks, but this HK thing is not working. Amanda Waller is boring and that she would want to use some dork like Island!Oliver as her Scary International Assassin or whatever is asinine. The flashbacks themselves never make sense as their own story/plotline within each episode, either. When Oliver and the HK dude he's staying with were talking all loudly in the living room about how Oliver murdered someone during the afternoon, and the HK dude motioned to his son who was sitting right there in plain sight on the bed, I figured that the son must not speak English or something. But then Oliver walks right in and asks to use the computer and the kid is American? He understood that Oliver had been stomping around about murdering people and had no reaction to that? Meh. Hopefully he gets thrown back to the island soon. I did like the hints that AW is grooming him to be the new Fyres (I'm sorry, I don't know anything about the comics so maybe this is ridiculous and/or already part of the comics' canon or something).

 

The thing about Oliver not killing Malcolm:  I actually thought it made sense emotionally, though not logistically, that he didn't want to do it. Almost the last thing that Tommy ever said to Oliver was to make sure that Oliver hadn't killed Malcolm. And now it turns out that Malcolm is Thea's father, too? Also, Oliver got orphaned pretty recently, I can see why it would be tough for him to kill off even his pseudo parents (like his half-sister's and bff's dad who he's known forever and who was tight with his own parents) right now, even if that pseudo parent is a complete Evil Mastermind.

[TanyaKay]

Being around Laurel makes Oliver stupid.  They've always been 100% consistent with that.

 

 

That and the fact that Felicity was not around. He gets smarter around Felicity (she gave him the idea to out think Slade Wilson) and dumber around Laurel and things get worse for him when Laurel is in the foundry and Felicity is 600 miles away in Central City.

[BkWurm1]

The other negative: sigh. Nyssa was used to prop Laurel, as we all predicted, and what a bummer after such a great start.

 

It was a lot less awful than I was anticipating.  She didn't compliment Laurel on anything she was doing physically which would have been absurd IMO, rather she seemed to admire Laurel for her no holds barred just kill the bastard attitude and I'm not sure if anyone not in the LoA should consider that complimentary.  

 

  Merlyn killing Tommy was brought up a lot this episode, more than probably all year. I think it's giving off a hint that Tommy could not have been killed by Merlyn and that Tommy is tied to Sara's death, possibly even the killer.

 

Yeah, I can't help wonder the same thing even though Tommy being a killer makes no sense at all.  But then I look at Laurel and well?

 

I'm bummed that instead of being excited for the past 3 episodes, they've become a chore to watch. I'm hoping next week will be as good as it should be.

 

Yeah, I have to brace myself before I watch.   I am still really looking forward to next week but I have a feeling it too is going to be depressing.

 

I LOVED Oliver's face when Felicity showed up again. He looked so happy and relieved to see her but couldn't show all of it.

 

I'm not sure that I saw Oliver's face light up when Felicity showed up but I know mine did...and we got nothing.  Thank goodness last nights Flash had enough of her awesomeness to keep me going til next week (and even more amazing/terrible, it contained important character insights into her current state of mind) 

[catrox14]

 

I'm not sure that I saw Oliver's face light up when Felicity showed up but I know mine did...and we got nothing.

 

I didn't say it lit up. But it certainly was lighter the moment she walked in. His entire demeanor changed for the better and he looked relieved too. And smitten. That boy is twitterpated big time.

[wonderwall]

You guys will enjoy what John Campea says about Laurel in the latest aftershow on youtube! Check it out! :)

 

[TanyaKay]

It was. They didn't even change the table arrangements and the chairs, though they did change the camera filter and one sign and moved one of the coffee tables. I blinked. 

 

Though to be fair, Flash has been using at least one set from Arrow every episode, and both shows are using each other's extras with one show getting them in the morning and the other show getting them at night, so I suppose it's just fair that Arrow used the Flash set.

 

of course the coffee shop was the same set as Jitters .. with a different sign, lighting and camera lens.

 

Which Arrow set do you think they have been using in Flash, I obviously have not noticed that.

[foreverevolving]

You guys will enjoy what John Campea says about Laurel in the latest aftershow on youtube! Check it out! :)

 

Seriously?! he thinks this week was better than last week's episode?

[patchwork]

The scene in the alley cemented my belief that KC is capable of playing the superior bitch but sucks at grief fuelled rage and being a believable badass. She would make a better Waller type character than our current Waller.

 

Nyssa almost makes up for the lack of Felicity (or last night's Flash is making me forgiving), I just love her costume, her attitude and her punching Oliver in the face. Speaking of he should never try to do anything without checking in with Felicity ever again. I think we all know who that program was designed to be used by. 

 

Malcolm is a great villain but Oliver should have either killed him himself or stepped aside and let someone else do it. I don't think he's Sara's killer but he is the mastermind behind the Undertaking and not worth going up against the LOA for. I can't shake the feeling he's involved somehow though and that Thea has a part to play in all this. There's something not right with her.  

Edited October 30, 2014 by patchwork

[wonderwall]

Seriously?! he thinks this week was better than last week's episode?

Lmao, that's why I said you'll enjoy what they say about Laurel :p I knew you guys would disagree with them about everything else :p 

[foreverevolving]

Lmao, that's why I said you'll enjoy what they say about Laurel :p I knew you guys would disagree with them about everything else :p 

 

Well I do agree with him about the fact that Oliver/Arrow is being set up as this universe "Batman" character, in terms of being the guy who funds and is the "father figure" so to say to the other heros. he's not there yet, but.. you know even Batman didn't become Batman over night.

I disagree about Thea and Roy being badass: the former had 5 full months non stop LoA like training by Malcolm, and the latter already had vigilante experience as seen in previous seasons. so their evolution makes sense.

I also agree with the green gal about Nyssa being brought into the fold of propping up you know who.

oh yea and the two ladies kind of weird me out a bit. they act so unnatural to the camera. red girl especially. and is green girl and middle seat dude guy married or something? just some procrastination musings- i really should go and finish that damn project.