S04.E04: Iron In The Fire

[LoveLeigh]

I found the whole scene with Carrie and Aayan to be repulsive and gross. It's just terribly bad writing and sexist... when the only power a female CIA agent has to get information is to seduce her sources. Carrie is beyond "insane" and unprofessional. It is just repulsive to watch and this show needs to go. 

 

It has turned into a total farce. 

[Trois]

Carrie didn't look at Aayan and decide to seduce him.

 

That was her strategy from the beginning, encouraging Farah to touch him when she first made contact with Aayan.

 

Seems that's the only play she has in her playbook.

Yeah, that's kind of cheap. Let the female agent play with the boy or vice versa. 

But, honestly why did it feel icky? It did, but why? I had difficulties watching the last 5 min of the episode.

[HollaMcDollar]

Yeah, that's kind of cheap. Let the female agent play with the boy or vice versa. 

But, honestly why did it feel icky? It did, but why? I had difficulties watching the last 5 min of the episode.

I totally agree w/ what you're saying/feeling.... There's nothing in particular that one can point to in that scene and say "that's what did it" but you come away from it feeling INCREDIBLY uncomfortable/creeped out/icky/etc.

[ruby24]

Probably because he was a virgin, she's manipulating him and we know that this "relationship" is going to be a disaster and probably destroy his life even worse. All of that does make it icky, although we don't exactly know how "innocent" he is in terms of who he's working with, etc., but he sure SEEMS like he's an innocent kid. Taking advantage of seeming innocence like that will always look kind of sleazy.

[HollaMcDollar]

Yes, because an older woman and a younger man is just SO disgusting, right?

The scene wasn't troubling because of age, but because of power and Carrie is the one holding the power over Aayan; he's not an equal in this. Even if they both were the same age, it still would be troubling.

Sometimes I wish folks wouldn't get so creeped out over age; as long as everybody is over 21 it's all good IMO.

I admit to being a tick harsh but there is just something different about Caire Danes' Carrie that makes it feel different... Someone else above mentioned the sex in the the Americams; is compare what Carrie did toAayan as somewhat similar to what Keri Russell did to the young navy sailor when she jerked him off to "pump him up" to go steal the plans- and I was probably equally grossed out by both scenes.

I don't thinkage played as big of a role as just the general feeling of how uncomfortable it was and weird- but at least in the Americans that was the intent of the writers. With Homeland, I'm not so sure.

Edited October 20, 2014 by HollaMcDollar

[Neurochick]

Yeah, that's kind of cheap. Let the female agent play with the boy or vice versa. 

But, honestly why did it feel icky? It did, but why? I had difficulties watching the last 5 min of the episode.

 

It felt icky to me because of the power dynamic.  Carrie has all the power, she holds all the cards, she has the power to get Aayan out of the country, to get him into medical school.  It's also icky because we, the audience know that Carrie has no intention of getting Aayan out of the country, she is going to use him to find out who killed Sandy.  

 

It bothered me that Carrie always has to use her sexuality to get what she wants.  She's supposed to be an intelligent woman, can't she figure out another way of getting what she wants without sex?  That bothers me.  

[Pallas]

Part of my problem with deciding just how much and why Carrie's seduction of Aayan  feels sordid, is my having no idea how frequently actual case officers seduce their sources.  My guess would be it depends on the officer, the source and the circumstances, but that sex between officer and source of the right genders (source's choice) may always be something on the table: or just out of sight, beneath it.  

 

Past that, this kind of intense, intimate role-play is most reminiscent of other similarly charged situations, in which our society and culture have only fairly recently but successively been moved to legislate sex out of the equation. Adult/child. Doctor/patient.  Therapist/client.  Teacher/student.  Manager/associate.  All relationships where the transgression is in the power disparity, as Neurochick and ruby24 point out.  All relationships that gain their perverse power from the possibility of transference.  It reminds us of those, and with Carrie and Aayan, is nakedly a case of predator and prey.  And in this instance, we know quite a lot about the past and psyche of the predator, and are aware of the high stakes for the prey.

 

But reverse the players or the genders, and to me, it doesn't play as harshly.  If it were Quinn seducing a 24-year-old virgin to attach her to him, for the next few days, for the sake of a mission...it would be terrible; it would be lamentable; it might be, however, compelling and not literally repulsive.  I'd watch, not check my watch. Maybe because I do sense that Quinn, or Saul, or Fara, or almost any character but Carrie have in them a spark of fellow-feeling, could be trusted to at least this tiny degree -- to be in some way vulnerable to counter-transference.  

 

And maybe I do find it worse when a woman is devoid of fellow-feeling.  Worse for her, worse for the world.  Worse for the world she believes she is trying to save.    

[eleanorofaquitaine]

Yeah, that's kind of cheap. Let the female agent play with the boy or vice versa. 

But, honestly why did it feel icky? It did, but why? I had difficulties watching the last 5 min of the episode.

 

I think it felt icky because we know that Carrie is doing this purely for ruthlessly manipulative reasons.  I mean, yes, she had sex with Brody as a way of getting closer to him but there was also a sense that she had become emotionally attached to him after spending so much time watching him and seeing how damaged he was.  I mean, you could argue that made it even worse, but at the end of the day, both Carrie and Brody were adults and we had the sense that they were on the same even playing field.  We don't have that sense with Aayan.  And I would agree with Neurochick that the power differential between the two of them made it icky.

[bluebonnet]

 

But, honestly why did it feel icky? It did, but why? I had difficulties watching the last 5 min of the episode.

I think it's because they both looked like they really didn't want this.  I think Aayan is playing Carrie just as much as she's playing him.  This dude stared up at the camera drone over the bodies of his mother and sister and had a fearsome angry look on his face.  It's rather difficult to believe that same dude headed back to college with no desire to even acknowledge what happened to his family.  It feels very much like Aayan was placed as bait for Carrie or whatever CIA agent was going to be in Islamabad.  

[ruby24]

I'm not as bothered by her using sex to do these things, because I really do think that's in the job description for a LOT of female spies. Like it or not, being a woman in this field where you're mostly interacting with men means you're probably going to have to employ those tools.

[shapeshifter]

For now, I don't feel all that bad about what Carrie's doing to Aayan (whether it will be, or remain, effective is another matter)

• Aayan knows his uncle isn't dead
• Aayan knows his uncle wants people to think he's dead
• It sure looks as if the not so late uncle was willing to sacrifice his and Aayan's family members to throw the CIA off the trail, unless the Aayan's video of the bombing is fake as well. So unless that video is a fake, it sure looks like Aayan is an accomplice after the fact to the murder of his own family
• Aayan is stealing drugs, or bribing people to steal them, which means that some people who need them may not get them.

I'm not saying Aayan is going around double tapping people in the back of the head, but I'm reserving judgment on his "innocence" and Carrie's manipulation of him....

Good points. He still may be both a pawn and naive--as well as a virgin pre-Carrie--but not "innocent."

I guess I don't understand the husband's participation for a number of reasons.

Why would the ambassador's husband get involved? Though I'm guessing we'll find out eventually

What would the ambassador know that the CIA wouldn't already know?

I thought the exchange of info for drone targets was authorized by Lockhart, so why would Professor Plagiarist need to be involved?

It makes sense for the CIA to want a red-blooded, tru-blue American who is not CIA as a buffer for reasons of plausible deniability. And it is convenient to have it be someone with such close access to the info (i.e., the husband of an ambassador to Pakistan), but likely the ambassador and Professor Plagiarism are going to go down now or later--which means an international incident implicating Americans in high places. Hrmm...I guess it must be a political party thing. For example, if Lockhart is a Republican and the Ambassador is a Democrat, there's still political gain to be had by Lockhart's people when the whole thing goes south. Edited October 21, 2014 by shapeshifter

[NorthstarATL]

Well, that happened. I agree with earlier posters that the "seduction' seemed wholly unnecessary. He was settling into the idea that the promises made were on hold (temporarily, he might stil believe), and he was responding positively to her seemingly maternal or sisterly comfort hugs, but ratcheting things up where there seemed no reciprocal attraction nor groundwork laid for sex to naturally be a next step should make Aayan question Carrie's seeming desperation.

[CaughtOnTape]

While I was uncomfortable watching the last 5 minutes, I wasn't offended by it.  I felt it fit for the character.  Carrie doesn't strike me as an overly smart woman other than the fact that she knows how to manipulate the hell out of everyone around her.  So I knew the minute she told Farrah to bring him to the safe house what she was planning on doing.  So I didn't feel like it was the writer's making some grand statement about how women always have to use their sexuality to get what they want or some big statement about society.

 

I just felt like as far as Carrie was concerned, this is how she would've handled it.  So in that vein, it wasn't shocking.

You wonder how CIA agents feel about how they're being portrayed by this show ...

 

LOL Because CIA agents were totally well understood by the masses before this show came along?

I bet the poor actor was creeped out w/ having a woman 15 years his senior mauling him- even if it was acting. There is a rumor in the is that Danes gets a little too in to character at times and is quite intense.

 

Yes.....most men I know are totally squicked out that an older, experienced, hot ass blonde is sitting on top of them grabbing for anything she can hold onto.  Aayan doesn't know she's fucked up and emotionally abusive and probably doesn't care either (so hence the baggage she carries doesn't make her unattractive to him as it would to another man - like the audience - who knows she's batshit crazy).  She's hot, she's sucking all over him and she wants it...now.  That's what he cares about.

Edited October 21, 2014 by CaughtOnTape

[Hava]

Yes.....most men I know are totally squicked out that an older, experienced, hot ass blonde is sitting on top of them grabbing for anything she can hold onto.

 

 

I just wanted to reply and say that this kind of thinking--that men always want sex--plays into the idea that men cannot be raped and, in particular, harms young boys who are victimized by women in positions of power (I'm thinking of boys who are regarded as "lucky" when they are raped by their female teachers). I'm not saying that your condoning this idea--I just wanted to put this out there. And I also don't think Ayan was raped. But he certainly was manipulated by someone in a position of authority and so I think it's more complicated than "of course he wanted it."

[CaughtOnTape]

How is she in a position of authority over him?

 

She's not his teacher, not his commanding officer, not his aunt.....she's a person who's helping him out.  I don't see her as an authority figure over him at all.

 

He doesn't have to do what she says.  She's manipulating him, but not as a person in a position of authority.  Not from where I sit anyway.

 

And that comment was about the actor, not Aayan.  The actor knew full well what the scene entailed. I highly doubt he was uncomfortable with her all over him during the filming.

Edited October 21, 2014 by CaughtOnTape

[Hava]

And that comment was about the actor, not Aayan.  The actor knew full well what the scene entailed. I highly doubt he was uncomfortable with her all over him during the filming.

 

Ah, yes. I missed that. I apologize. You go on to discuss the character in the rest of the paragraph so I think that's why I conflated the two.

 

He doesn't have to do what she says.  She's manipulating him, but not as a person in a position of authority.  Not from where I sit anyway.

 

 

You're right--I probably should not have characterized her as in a position of authority. I guess I see her in a position of authority because I have more information than he does. I know that she is a CIA agent and, in that way, she does have some power over him (that he is unaware of). But I also see the age differential and the fact that she is offering him help that he is desperate for and, in that sense, I see a power differential, even though she may not be an authority figure.

[Raachel2008]

I bet the poor actor was creeped out w/ having a woman 15 years his senior mauling him- even if it was acting. 

 

 

He is an actor and it was acting and if having a sex scene with an actress 15 years his senior creeps him out, maybe he is in the wrong business.

 

The real problem with Claire seducing Aayan, for me, is not the age difference or the power dynamics or any of that, this show has no qualms about displaying horrific stuff I'm a 110% against  - torture, children's deaths, etc - with the argument it is for the greater good. My problem with that scene is, as someone else pointed out, it reduces the show to the Carrie show. Don't get me wrong, Carrie has always been in the core of Homeland, but when Brody was alive we had two main arcs, his and hers, and it sort of balanced out things. Now Brody is gone, and they don't know how to write anything without making it all about Claire. While I see why the kid would be interested in a blond white woman he doesn't see around Ismalabad, it is TV and if the writers wanted, Aayan would have reacted the same way to Fara, no matter how many Fara-alike girls he sees around - and it would have made for a very interesting plot for Fara.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Raachel2008

[izabella]

I thought it was icky when Carrie did it with Brody, and it's icky now.  I want my spies to have more in their toolbelts.  They did it already with Brody.  Move on.  Show me something clever.

[Blakeston]

How is she in a position of authority over him?

 

She's not his teacher, not his commanding officer, not his aunt.....she's a person who's helping him out.  I don't see her as an authority figure over him at all.

 

He doesn't have to do what she says.  She's manipulating him, but not as a person in a position of authority.  Not from where I sit anyway.

 

So far as he knows, she's his only hope of getting out of the country. His future is in her hands. That's a position of authority, even if she isn't his boss.

 

I'm a gay man, and if I were in Aayan's shoes, I would have had sex with her. Not because I would have enjoyed it, obviously - but because I'd be so afraid of getting on her bad side.

 

And from the way he reacted to her come-on, it didn't look to me like he was horny and thrilled. He looked very reluctant. It's possible he wanted her and was nervous, but it's also possible he wasn't really interested in the sex.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Blakeston

[armadillo1224]

 

She's not his teacher, not his commanding officer, not his aunt.....she's a person who's helping him out.  I don't see her as an authority figure over him at all.

She has power over him because he believes that she's the only person who can help him escape from a desperate situation in which his life is endangered. He has nowhere else to go. If she doesn't help him, he seems to believe that he's kind of screwed. She makes every effort to keep this impression alive and to intensify it. I think that's a pretty obvious and clear power relationship. It is not explicitly coercive but it can easily become so.

Edited October 21, 2014 by armadillo1224

[HollaMcDollar]

Yes.....most men I know are totally squicked out that an older, experienced, hot ass blonde is sitting on top of them grabbing for anything she can hold onto.

To each their own (esp. w/ regards to Danes attractiveness) but I vividly recall thinking 30 was old at 21 and being on a college trip to Memphis w/ a group of guys when a 35 year old woman brought herself back to the hotel w/ one of my friends and while it was funny at first, it very quickly became a little weird and creepy for him. She was attractive but the age difference is VERY NOTICABLE and the whole thing was just weird....

Anyway, back to Homeland; as I said before, it wasn't so much the age deal as other things about it that made it weird.

Edited October 21, 2014 by HollaMcDollar

[CaughtOnTape]

I agree she has power over him.

 

But she doesn't have authority over him.

Those are two different things.  She's not an authority figure in any way.  He doesn't HAVE to do what she says.  He can tell her to go screw herself.  And as much as he's reluctant to sleep with her he was also reluctant to listen to and believe her and pretty much extorted money from her.  He's the family member of a terrorist whom he wholeheartedly knows is supposed to be dead.  He's hardly some innocent kid.

 

He's also manipulated her.  He has no idea she knows his uncle is alive.  

To each their own (esp. w/ regards to Danes attractiveness) but I vividly recall thinking 30 was old at 21 and being on a college trip to Memphis w/ a group of guys when a 35 year old woman brought herself back to the hotel w/ one of my friends and while it was funny at first, it very quickly became a little weird and creepy for him. She was attractive but the age difference is VERY NOTICABLE and the whole thing was just weird....

 

Ok.....

 

That's a completely different situation from an actor who's read the script beforehand and is well aware what is going to happen.  

 

Really now?

[armadillo1224]

 

 

I agree she has power over him.

But she doesn't have authority over him.

I really don't understand why this distinction is important. Clearly, the original scene unsettled a lot of people and that was because of the weird power differential. The difference between what power and authority mean seems immaterial. Also, you can tell an authority figure to go screw themselves too. No one ever really has to do what anyone else says.

 

He's the family member of a terrorist whom he wholeheartedly knows is supposed to be dead.  He's hardly some innocent kid.

I don't think we know nearly enough about him to make this conclusion yet. Also, being related to a terrorist doesn't disqualify you from being innocent.

Edited October 21, 2014 by armadillo1224

[CaughtOnTape]

Also, being related to a terrorist doesn't disqualify you from being innocent.

 

No, but deliberately aiding said terrorist to mislead people into thinking he's still dead when he's not......does.

 

The distinction is that someone suggested that her manipulation was akin to boys being raped by women who push themselves on them when they are in a position of authority.  She's not.  She's in a position of power over him because she knows more than he does.  That's not a crime.  It happens every day.

 

To clarify, it wasn't uncomfortable for me to watch because of an age difference or authority figure lording herself over some innocent kid.  It was uncomfortable to watch because everything about it was a bad idea.  It's like watching someone make a bad decision when you know full well that decision they are making is extraordinarily bad, but you can't stop them.  I didn't enjoy watching Carrie and Brody sleep together either.  We see how well that turned out.  Now there's a baby involved.

 

That's all I'm gonna say so as not to highjack the discussion.  Have a nice night!

Edited October 21, 2014 by CaughtOnTape

[Hava]

The distinction is that someone suggested that her manipulation was akin to boys being raped by women who push themselves on them when they are in a position of authority.

 

 Actually, I didn't say it was akin to that. I even clearly said that I don't think Carrie raped Aayan. I brought up this example just to highlight my concerns with the idea that all men want or should want sex from a woman. 

[HollaMcDollar]

Ok.....

 

That's a completely different situation from an actor who's read the script beforehand and is well aware what is going to happen.  

 

Really now?

Well, not really when you look at it as both knew what was up before hand... Regardless, we are getting OT.

There were a whole host of issues with the scenee before age.

[shapeshifter]

So far as he knows, she's his only hope of getting out of the country. His future is in her hands. That's a position of authority, even if she isn't his boss.

 

I'm a gay man, and if I were in Aayan's shoes, I would have had sex with her. Not because I would have enjoyed it, obviously - but because I'd be so afraid of getting on her bad side.

 

And from the way he reacted to her come-on, it didn't look to me like he was horny and thrilled. He looked very reluctant. It's possible he wanted her and was nervous, but it's also possible he wasn't really interested in the sex.

Your whole post is exactly how I interpreted it too (and I'm a straight/asexual-for-decades woman). He was initially so resistant to her obvious advances that I considered the idea that maybe he was gay. I don't recall: Did we see any overt romantic expressions between him and his young female friend last week? We didn't see any in this episode.

[WearyTraveler]

I guess I don't understand the husband's participation for a number of reasons.

Why would the ambassador's husband get involved? Though I'm guessing we'll find out eventually

 

I'm going to guess a couple of possibilities, given the information we have so far.

 

I think that, as the female intelligence officer told the professor after his class, he was a friend of Sandy's from he past.  Maybe from college, maybe because given the wife's political career, they met sometime before in one party/reunion or another.  It's highly likely they crossed paths before, and Sandy, being in the intelligence business, would have been wise enough to know that you groom and maintain important contacts, because you never know what you might need.

 

So, my guess is that Sandy gets contacted by the female (Pakistani?) intelligence officer and proposes a deal: she will give Sandy locations to take out known Taliban members and, in exchange, he will provide her with some US intelligence info.  At first, Sandy might have seen no harm in it.  Pakistan is friendly with the US; and even though there are reasons to challenge that friendship, Sandy might have thought the US still had the upper hand in the relationship.  It is my understanding that sometimes agents are authorized to share certain "secrets" in order to play a double-sided game, letting the other side think they are getting valuable info out the asset, when, in reality, everybody knows what the asset is sharing.  It's true information, but not damaging in major ways.

 

As the relationship between the female intelligence officer and Sandy evolves, she starts asking him for more relevant info, and given that her information on the location of known US targets had been accurate, and helped Sandy garner a great reputation in the CIA, he feels compelled to comply, but he is not authorized to share major information and he doesn't have access to it either (remember the CIA works in a need to know basis, Carrie had to set up a secondary location that none of her staff as station chief know about, for example).  Enter the friend he made a while back and has kept in contact with throughout the years (ambassador's husband).

 

Sandy approaches him to get more valuable information.  The husband complies because he wants to prove to his wife that he's more than the academic who plagiarized a whole chapter of his book (side note: how dumb does one have to be to do that and not expect to get caught? I wonder).  He feels emasculated by his successful wife and needs to prove that he can get the job done.  Eventually, when it comes out that he's had a role in ridding the US of a bunch of high profile targets, he can tell his wife: "see? I can do this too! I'm a hero!!".

 

What would the ambassador know that the CIA wouldn't already know?

 

 

Plenty!  I believe one of the reasons given for the creation of the NSA was that all the intelligence agencies in the US operate in a kind of silo and don't share info.  It's one of the reasons given for 9-11.  The intelligence was there, but so compartmentalized that no one had a full picture view.  As stated above, they work on a need-to-know basis.  Some diplomatic documents might cross the ambassador's desk that could be for her eyes only, and who she shares that information with is left to her own discretion.  If she felt she didn't need to brief the CIA people under her supervision in Islamabad, she was within her purview to do so.

 

I thought the exchange of info for drone targets was authorized by Lockhart, so why would Professor Plagiarist need to be involved?

 

What I understood was that Lockhart was informed that Sandy was selling secrets after the fact, not that he had authorized it, which is why he put the guy who informed him on paper shuffling duty.  My guess is that he confronted Sandy and Sandy told him he was getting the job done (i.e. killing US terrorist targets from the 1,000+ list).  If Lockhart wanted that to continue, he had to allow Sandy to go on doing the job the way he was.  Lockhart agreed because he gets plausible deniability this way.  He can always claim he didn't know how far Sandy was going because he never provided the intelligence that Sandy leaked.  He keeps the whole operation off the books.  If it goes well, and Sandy continues to provide good drone targets, Lockhart gets credit for the CIA ridding the country of terrorists under his watch.  If it goes wrong, he can say he didn't know what Sandy was doing.  Not a stellar mark for him, but still better than being prosecuted for treason.  He took a calculated risk, and so far, it had payed off for him.  But Sandy's death changed the game a little.  He pulled Carrie out in part because he knows she's like a dog with a bone, and he didn't want her discovering all the things she did discover anyway; but still she got enough leverage on him to get him to appoint her Station Chief in Islamabad.

Edited October 21, 2014 by WearyTraveler

[attica]

This hour zipped by for me. At first I felt ripped off, like the ep was only 35 minutes or so, but then, nope: 52 minutes! Gracious!

 

See, now, that's what you get for abandoning Chauncey the dog -- blackmailed by bad guy spies! Poor Mark Moses: he's cornered the market on playing sad sacks that overestimate their own skillz.

 

Nice to see Raza Jaffrey again. Haven't seen him since Spooks/MI-5. He looks nice in a sharp suit. And Art Malik! Wheee! I liked Saul's scenes with both guys. You can really see his brain riffling through the data cards trying to piece stuff together. I love this  kind of spy stuff so much.

[babs1226]

Wow! Good call!  I knew the whole time I was watching him I knew him from somewhere.  There was something so familiar about him and his voice but I just couldn't place him.  Never in a million years would have guessed it was Fred though!  Has he been a working actor all this time?  Can't recall seeing him in anything else.

I have seen Michael O'Keefe in guest starring roles on practically every show on network tv.  He usually plays a bad guy.  He has pretty much been working steady all these years.

[ahpny]

What creeps me out isn't so much that Carrie is "working and asset," and doing so with sex - though that is always inherently creepy to some degree, as is all deception in general. As others have pointed out, this is done all the time in real life as well as on shows like The Americans, where women and men both partake. The age difference similarly doesn't offend me either, though that's probably because Carrie is pretty youthful looking and attractive. People tend to be less forgiving when an older women is less hot or is otherwise seemingly incompatible. Compare the obnoxious dudes "offended" by Quinn's mere dining with a larger women.

 

But was does register quite high in the ick scale is our knowledge that Carrie is exploiting every factor involved, including his virginity, his vulnerability, his fear, and especially her playing into the stereotype that she believes this young Muslim man has of "loose" western women, especially regarding hot, blond western women. Also, as desperate as he was, he seems too intelligent to fail to pick up on how unrealistic the situation really is and how he must be being "worked." He did question whether Farah was indeed who she claimed to be. Now all of a sudden a hot blond "journalist" is handing him 80,000 rupees and throwing herself at him sexually while promising admission to Kings College. Maybe she should buy him some lottery tickets as well because this seems to be his lucky day - other than of course being at the center of a botched drone attack and subsequent operative whacking .

 

What also seems off is that the station chief would be putting herself out personally in this manner. Isn't she beyond this in this stage of her career? Doesn't the agency have others to do the "wet work" as is were? I suppose this is part of Carrie's "unique" skills, or at least her own belief in the uniqueness of her own skills.

[Espy]

What also seems off is that the station chief would be putting herself out personally in this manner. Isn't she beyond this in this stage of her career? Doesn't the agency have others to do the "wet work" as is were? I suppose this is part of Carrie's "unique" skills, or at least her own belief in the uniqueness of her own skills.

I think it's her belief in the uniqueness of her own skills, which looks to me like intense focus  combined with sheer recklessness. It's her ego and her delusions of grandeur. As in, in season 1 Carries believes 9/11 happened because she was distracted ... in season four, Carrie is the only possible agent who could succeed at this mission. No one else. I find this notion to be ludicrously self-absorbed and unprofessional even, but the show has been very consistent with this aspect of Carrie's personality and behaviour.

[Blakeston]

The distinction is that someone suggested that her manipulation was akin to boys being raped by women who push themselves on them when they are in a position of authority.  She's not.  She's in a position of power over him because she knows more than he does.  That's not a crime.  It happens every day.

 

There's a lot more going on there than her knowing more than him.

 

She's lying to him, and making him think he has a chance at a bright future in London, knowing she can't deliver. And now that he believes her, and is desperate for her help, she comes on to him, solely for the purposes of manipulating him. And he's not in a position to turn her down, unless he wants to throw away his future.

 

And I haven't seen any accusation that Carrie's actions were akin to rape.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Blakeston

[Milburn Stone]

I didn't love the idea of Carrie seducing Aayan, but I also don't think we're meant to see this as an example of Carrie being irresistible. 

 

I agree with the latter part. That scene where she looked at herself in the bathroom mirror before the seduction...what I read into that was Carrie thinking, "I don't know, do I still have it? I'm older now. Can I still seduce any man I need to, or will I discover that I come off to him as old, gross and ridiculous?" Followed by, "Pull it together, girl. You've still got it. You can do this." None of which adds up to Carrie defaulting to considering herself irresistible.

[shapeshifter]

I agree with the latter part. That scene where she looked at herself in the bathroom mirror before the seduction...what I read into that was Carrie thinking, "I don't know, do I still have it? I'm older now. Can I still seduce any man I need to, or will I discover that I come off to him as old, gross and ridiculous?" Followed by, "Pull it together, girl. You've still got it. You can do this." None of which adds up to Carrie defaulting to considering herself irresistible.

That's exactly what I thought too. I noticed that she had not had the wrinkles between her eyebrows botoxed (I have a deep wrinkle in the same place) and wondered about it until that scene.

[vesperholly]

Mad men and midnight's children...Seeing Art Malik's name in the opening credits, I sat forward and wondered if I remembered him well enough to recognize him  30 years (!) later.  But of course: General Bunny was The Jewel in the Crown's Hari Kumar.  

And also Aziz, the crazy awesome terrorist leader from True Lies!

 

To me, the ick factor had nothing to do with age and everything to do with manipulation, ethics and imbalance of power. Especially when they made sure to stick in that Ayan-leans-in-for-a-kiss part to signal the audience that yes, it is consensual ... yuck.

 

Lastly: Authority literally means a person with power.

 

What also seems off is that the station chief would be putting herself out personally in this manner. Isn't she beyond this in this stage of her career? Doesn't the agency have others to do the "wet work" as is were? I suppose this is part of Carrie's "unique" skills, or at least her own belief in the uniqueness of her own skills.

This operation with Ayan, Ghazi et al is off the books, so she doesn't have station staff to delegate to.

[CaughtOnTape]

And I haven't seen any accusation that Carrie's actions were akin to rape.

 

I didn't say accusation, I said suggestion.  And it has been suggested at least twice in this thread, I suggest going back to read again.

Edited October 22, 2014 by CaughtOnTape

[Haleth]

Doesn't the agency have others to do the "wet work" as is were?

 

The choices were Carrie, Fara (rejected), Max, Peter, or Saul.  Which reminds me, what if Aayan had confessed to being gay?

[alexvillage]

I think the seduction part was unnecessary. Aayan might be hiding things, be too involved with his uncle, but he was scared to death and this seduction thing is not how Carrie will get him to "her" side.

I can't stand her and I do hope she fails. I want Farah to become a bigger character and bring her down. She seems pretty disturbed at the tactics. 

Nos, we know that our Intelligence Agencies are pretty fishy and stinky, but Carrie blackmailed the director to be sent to Pakistan. Would she be "disappeared" at some point, before spilling the beans.

Gosh, show. There is only so much poetic freedom I can take 

[shapeshifter]

...This operation with Ayan, Ghazi et al is off the books, so she doesn't have station staff to delegate to.

I wonder if Carrie would have preferred (especially at that moment when she looked in the mirror) if Fara could have done it (because Aayan might find Fara more attractive--being young, beautiful, and even potentially acceptable as a wife in his culture) but realized that Fara was not up to the task? I would like to think she was being sensitive to Fara's possible personal morés and taboos against seducing a target, but I doubt Carrie is capable of that kind of empathy.

...Which reminds me, what if Aayan had confessed to being gay?

Yes, I mentioned upthread that they seemed to telegraph that possibility (of his being gay) with his hesitancy--but I guess that is now off the table? Maybe not. I heard an interview with Neil Patrick Harris this week in which he described losing his virginity to a slightly older woman when about Aayan's age, in part to get it over with. I would like Aayan to be gay because it would restore a tiny bit of the power balance between him and Carrie. It would also be interesting because if he was able to admit it to her, he might have a stronger case for asylum--I guess--I don't really know if Pakistan seeks to stone to death gays, or if it is more of a de facto DADT situation. But, again, I doubt Carrie would have any empathy for his plight if he is gay in a Muslim country; her only thoughts would be how to use this for the mission. Edited October 22, 2014 by shapeshifter

[shelley1234]

Actually, I didn't say it was akin to that. I even clearly said that I don't think Carrie raped Aayan. I brought up this example just to highlight my concerns with the idea that all men want or should want sex from a woman.

  

There's a lot more going on there than her knowing more than him.

 

She's lying to him, and making him think he has a chance at a bright future in London, knowing she can't deliver. And now that he believes her, and is desperate for her help, she comes on to him, solely for the purposes of manipulating him. And he's not in a position to turn her down, unless he wants to throw away his future.

 

And I haven't seen any accusation that Carrie's actions were akin to rape.

I'll say it was rape. Carrie is in a position of power and control over Aayan. When that is the case legally the person is not able to consent and therefore it is rape. He is in the position of believing that Carrie is the only one who can get him out of the country, keep him safe and get him back into medical school. If Aayan rebuked her advances then he risks her not doing those things and therefore even though he doesn't say no and actively participates, I question his ability to consent.

[Noreaster]

I guess I'm surprised by all the rape comments and the sexism comments.  To me, this Aayan/Carrie plot is a very predictable paint-by-the-numbers storyline.  A spy seduces a target to try to get something in return.  Whoopie.  Yes, the target is naive and vulnerable and young and horny.  Duh, that's why this plan might actually work.  Otherwise, they would be approaching him in a different way.

 

My problem with this season is how utterly predictable it has become.  Complete lack of subtlety in the writing.  The characters seem so one-dimensional.  Quinn has turned into a lovesick fool.  Fara is a naive goody two-shoe who doesn't fit in at all in the CIA. Lockhart is an unethical blowhard.  Saul is the know-it-all fatherly figure.  The Ambassador is good, her husband is bad.  The lady blackmailing the Ambassador's husband is clearly evil.  Even Michael O'Keefe's character is very cliched. And then add on the soap-operarish elements of this season. Quinn/apartment manager lady, Quinn/Carrie, Saul and his past with the Ambassador, etc.  This season is not looking good.  

 

The show was so strong in its first 1.5 seasons, then held onto the Brody character for too long.  I wish they did a complete revamp of the cast. Bring in some competent fellow CIA people for Carrie to work with.  Maybe introduce another character just as crazy and reckless as Carrie. Take some risks with the storyline.  Do the unexpected. That's what made the first season so strong.  

[anonymiss]

I found interesting the lingering look Carrie gave herself in the mirror before doing the deed. It was as though she was both appraising her appearance and what would become of her soul. 

 

Other than that and Quinn and Carrie's electrifying chemistry in the minute they shared, it was a dreary episode.

[scrb]

I don't see any evidence that Carrie has any equivocation when it comes to the things she does.

 

She can't stand being wrong, having the bad guys get one over on her (and the CIA and the USA, in that order).

 

In fact, when she gets to mix work with pleasure, for her it's a bonus!

[Deanie87]

Wow! Good call! I knew the whole time I was watching him I knew him from somewhere. There was something so familiar about him and his voice but I just couldn't place him. Never in a million years would have guessed it was Fred though! Has he been a working actor all this time? Can't recall seeing him in anything else.

I thought for sure that someone would mention Danny the caddy from Caddyshack. That's alwYs what I think of when I see him. And then I feel old.

As far as the "seduction," it seems way too early in the game for that. She knows nothing about him yet. I realize that the need everything done yesterday and that the stales are high, but this could totally turn him away and backfire in her face. Which of course I hope it does.

[Loandbehold]

My problem with Carrie fucking Aayan is that seduction does not have to involve sex. You can seduce someone with promises of money, or material goods, or freedom, or a better life. Which they started to do with promising Aayan that they would get him to England and into a medical school there. While Carrie did tell Fara that recruiting an asset is a seduction, they seemed to go almost straight to the most obvious example of the word. Sure Carrie did make the offers of England, etc., but she was far more sexually forwad in their initial bathroom meeting than I think that she had to be. When Aayan balks, you tell him that his life is at risk from the ISI guy. If he balks again, you can offer something else. Carrie has had other assets and I must believe she used other means to recruit them. Making her a one-trick (sorry for the lame pun) pony demeans the character.

[alexvillage]

 

My problem with Carrie fucking Aayan is that seduction does not have to involve sex.

Agreed. And Aayan was scared enough that he could have been easily manipulated.

[paramitch]

I bet the poor actor was creeped out w/ having a woman 15 years his senior mauling him- even if it was acting. There is a rumor in the is that Danes gets a little too in to character at times and is quite intense.

 

I'm sure there are plenty of "poor actors" who would be happy to make out with Claire Danes. And considering that pretty much 8 out of 10 movie and TV romances involve the reverse of this situation as the industry standard, I had no problem with it.

 

This may be weird to say, but I got the impression that Aayan was far more turned on and intrigued by Carrie, who's blond, white and not the norm in Islamabad.

 

I think this is it, exactly, and that Carrie first sent in Fara to see if he pinged to her, then when she went in herself and had the meet in the bathroom, she already knew from that encounter that she could probably seduce him.

 

Carrie is not supposed to be attracted to him at this point. She's absolutely mercenary when it comes to the subjects of her cases, so her seducing him is completely true to her character. I don't see this as the show jumping the shark at all.

 

I agree, and thought that it was pretty clear and cold that this is and has been Carrie's plan with Aayan (or at least an option) for awhile now. He responded negatively to Fara's attempts at getting in his space, but not to Carrie's. Carrie has briskly acknowledged at least the subtext of the plan fairly openly to her team.

 

I also think this is a much different situation than that with Brody. From square one, Carrie was drawn to Brody and exhibited emotional conflict about and for him (even while absolutely driven to expose him as a traitor). Her action with Aayan, however, to me appears absolutely unemotional. It is simply a tactical move, and one that she feels (for good or ill) that will keep Aayan more able to be manipulated by them to get to Haqqani.

 

And I definitely think it will come as no surprise to Quinn at all -- he appeared very much aware of what was going to happen next, and I'm interested to see how he reacts because my first impression wasn't that he reacted with jealousy (or that he will do so) but out of professional worry for her as well as distaste for the situation -- he is trying to get out of a dirty business and this is just one more example of how they have to spend themselves within it -- bodies, souls, etc. (It is interesting that this kind of approach seems to be less polarizing on "The Americans" than here.)

 

For now, I don't feel all that bad about what Carrie's doing to Aayan (whether it will be, or remain, effective is another matter)

 

• Aayan knows his uncle isn't dead
• Aayan knows his uncle wants people to think he's dead
• It sure looks as if the not so late uncle was willing to sacrifice his and Aayan's family members to throw the CIA off the trail, unless the Aayan's video of the bombing is fake as well.  So unless that video is a fake, it sure looks like Aayan is an accomplice after the fact to the murder of his own family
• Aayan is stealing drugs, or bribing people to steal them, which means that some people who need them may not get them.

I'm not saying Aayan is going around double tapping people in the back of the head, but I'm reserving judgment on his "innocence" and Carrie's manipulation of him.

 

I agree. If I substitute Haqqani with Bin Laden? Heck yeah, I'd support Carrie or anyone seducing a complicit and adult nephew responsible for his own decisions in order to get whatever intel they needed. Yes, because of TV's omniscient POV, we've seen that Aayan is in some ways a sweet young guy, but the show has actually done a pretty good job, for me, of showing that he has also stepped over the line multiple times now into actively aiding and abetting one of the world's leading terrorists, and this is where I find Carrie at her most ruthless and believable. She measures everything by 9-11 and by the CIA bombing, and I think she feels entitled to take these actions when they may in fact save thousands of American lives in the future, and so far, within the confines of Homeland's universe, I would agree with her.

 

[Lockhart] took a calculated risk, and so far, it had payed off for him.  But Sandy's death changed the game a little.  He pulled Carrie out in part because he knows she's like a dog with a bone, and he didn't want her discovering all the things she did discover anyway; but still she got enough leverage on him to get him to appoint her Station Chief in Islamabad.

 

This post was a great summation of what appears to have happened both with Sandy and with the ambassador's husband in terms of the situation. I also suspect that we're going to find out that O'Keefe's character knew more about Sandy's activities than he was telling, but I'm kind of hoping things go against appearances here, and that he ends up being at least something of a white hat. Speaking of which, I found him much more interesting in this episode, and I was relieved he wasn't as obviously sexist or antagonistic. It was interesting that he was instantly able to identify the guy with the earpiece, for instance -- a major puzzle piece for Carrie (and one she would have missed if he had not seen the papers she was trying to hide). 

 

What I found especially interesting in this episode was the underlying question of rightness or wrongness in all of these actions. We saw for instance all the different facets to Carrie and that in some ways she's now playing people all the time. We saw all the different ways she was trying to both interact with people honestly and to manipulate them or lie to them, much of it on reflex. We saw her sometimes switching characters and approaches from scene to scene or even within scenes, themselves, and I thought that was both deliberate and truly interesting from a writing standpoint. In the scene with Quinn, I felt that you could see Carrie changing minute to minute -- for a second she's honest, for another second we kind of see her playing him or placating him, then she's back to being honest, etc. Only in the scene at the end did I feel there was no conflict in Carrie -- that her seduction of Aayan was absolutely clear, strategic, and necessary, and she was going to do what she had to do.

 

I also think that the parallels between Carrie and Quinn are interesting precisely because of this, and Fara as well. Quinn has had it with what they have to do. He's disgusted by the blood on his hands and the things he has had to do, and he's also disgusted by the things the agents around him are doing and will have to do (Carrie chief among these). But I also think he's conflicted because nobody understands the necessities for these better than Quinn so in some ways he's very likely still going to be her biggest supporter (and devil's advocate).

 

Meanwhile, the dismay on Fara's face as Carrie closed the door was, for me, an important 'tell' by the show that this is a really uncomfortable scenario. I don't think we're supposed to think Carrie's doing a great thing in seducing and using Aayan. But I also understand why she thinks it needs to happen, and I'm interested to see what happens next.

[attica]

My problem with Carrie fucking Aayan is that seduction does not have to involve sex.

 

It doesn't, but in my view, not fucking is a tactic that works best on a man used to getting what he wants. Deny a powerful man something, and he's putty. Aayan ain't that. He's all new and confused; fucking is the system overload that will discombobulate him enough to make him do Carrie's bidding. Or that's her play, anyway. We'll see if it works. 

[ChocButterfly]

I'll say it was rape. Carrie is in a position of power and control over Aayan. When that is the case legally the person is not able to consent and therefore it is rape. He is in the position of believing that Carrie is the only one who can get him out of the country, keep him safe and get him back into medical school. If Aayan rebuked her advances then he risks her not doing those things and therefore even though he doesn't say no and actively participates, I question his ability to consent

Rape?? Oh, please! Aayan is playing her as much as she's playing him, is just that she's more cold and calculating and she knows better. But we all know he's lying to their faces, he's helping his uncle, he's dealing with drugs/medicine for who knows what, he's dealing with ISIS terrorists!! Of course he's scared, he should be, I think he's way in over his head. He might be a good guy (and I think he genuinely is), but that doesn't mean he's not doing some pretty shady illegal stuff knowingly. And lets not kid ourselves, he's young, but he's an adult.

 

As for the Carry having power and authority over him, it would seem that way, but he also has some power over her because she was the one seeking him and he knows it. Farah and Carry approached him several times, he went to her when HE wanted. Carry had to offer him many things to get him to come to her. He even asked for money without even giving her a reason why,  because he knew Carry was so interested in his story she'd do it. He knows Carry needs him and he's taking advantage of that situation to get away from the freaking mess he's in. And him asking for the money means he knows he can get away with it, because they want him. He used these "journalists" to help him aide a known terrorist and in all this he's still lying and haven't told her the truth.

He's using Carry as much as she's using him. Of course Carry really has the upper hand, because she's CIA and he has no idea what he's getting into. But that's on him, you don't get mixed up with ISIS and expect shit not to happen.

 

The only thing I feel really bad for him is that Carry has no intention to get him out of Pakistan, let alone get him into that British college, that's what gave me an "ick" feeling about their sex scene. It wasn't the age or the power imbalance or whatever, it was the blatant lying about what she could do for him and he's stupid naive believe that she would get him into that college. But if you swim in shark infested waters you can't expect things to turn out well. Still, I feel so sorry for him, he's obviously just a good kid that got  involved into this mess, probably because of his uncle. Of course, this is not Carry's fault and she's just using him, but she could genuinely help him as well if she cared. But Carry is such a cold hearted bitch, she will throw him under the bus when she doesn't need him anymore. I think we'll see a very bad ending for Aayan.

Edited October 24, 2014 by ChocButterfly