S05.E01: No Sanctuary

[SoSueMe]

I don't think we have either. I think the group talking Rick out of going back to kill the rest of Termites is going to come back to bite them.

 

I completely understand what you're saying, but I still liked when Carol just let the walkers have her instead shooting her in the head. It may not have been the more humane option, but considering all the horrible things that they've done, I don't think they should've been shown any mercy. But yes, I do share your concerns about Carol going off the edge. She does really toe the line. Rick too. Hopefully, now that she's reunited with the rest of the group, she can maintain her morality - however moral you can be in this messed up zombie apocalyptic world.

Jumping off your post.

 

I think Carol has shown much humanity throughout, from the humane way she dealt with Lizzie, to the necessary (imo) neutralizing of Karen and David. It always ticked me off that Rick banished her for her actions when in a previous (I think) episode he and a few others drove past a hitchhiker clearly in need of rescue and later picked up said hitchhiker's stuff after he had been killed by walkers.

 

ZA makes for a lot of moral ambiguity.

[nodorothyparker]

OK, I have read through all five pages of posts here and I'm fairly convinced that I'm alone but I just don't get all the love for this show. I marathoned it last year because I hate being out of the pop culture loop in any way, and while I thought some episodes were pretty good, all in all I think it's really uneven and worse yet, boring a lot of the time.

 

You're actually not alone in that.  When this show is good, it's almost epically good.  But over its run it's had some uneven stretches (probably at least in part because they changed showrunners a couple of times the first few seasons and back in season 2 AMC got very stingy with the cash) and when it's bad it's infuriating.  Give it a week or two and it will probably hit a very talky episode or one where everyone's acting too stupid to have survived this long that will have us all here bitching.

[JackONeill]

People are going to die because of Garath.  And this time it won't be on Rick's hands.  He wanted to go back and finish it and everybody else wimped out.

 

Abraham and his team always take me out of the story.  They're so . . . comic book, which, of course, is where they come from.  But they seem to be from a different universe.

 

Tara had a good line (her only line) in the boxcar.  It was like she knew that Rick et al was not only going to survive but kick ass.  (Now, what her basis for that is I don't know since she only saw Rick in the show-down with the Governor.  Or, maybe, I just misheard her last night.)

 

(For next week) I think if I were that priest, I could have done a better job of getting on top of that rock.

Edited October 13, 2014 by JackONeill

[Boofish]

I think Carol has shown much humanity throughout, from the humane way she dealt with Lizzie, to the necessary (imo) neutralizing of Karen and David. It always ticked me off that Rick banished her for her actions when in a previous (I think) episode he and a few others drove past a hitchhiker clearly in need of rescue and later picked up said hitchhiker's stuff after he had been killed by walkers.

 

I think at that point Rick was over trusting strangers (don't blame him). Merle had just told him the Governor probably had lookouts stationed everywhere so he had no way of knowing if backpack guy drew the short straw and was sent as the set-up. I say this only because in the what was the lamest summit ever between Rick and the Gob'nur, he all but said he saw Rick go for weapons and knew what he had

[Pete Martell]

I've always been pretty neutral on Glenn and Maggie.  I know their amazing love is supposed to represent "hope" on the show, according to some interviews I've seen.  They've never really done it for me though, which is okay, but the combination of her apparently becoming the glamor girl of the show without developing much as a character and him becoming Herschel lite without the gravitas is veering very close into outright grating. 

 

I mean really, Glenn?  These people had you bent over a trough ready to slit your throat for food.  You're only alive because your would-be executioner's two half-swings of contrivance didn't connect because of paperwork issues and Carol blowing up the place.  And you still don't think maybe you should make sure they're all dead?  Did you really learn nothing from the Governor fiasco?

 

One of the problems is the show is still committed to the idea of characters having moral dilemmas over how far to go, so they need someone to represent the point of view Gimple was trying to present about the Terminus people - that they weren't all bad. The problem is Glenn had no real reason to espouse this view, because he'd only ever seen the worst of the Terminus people. Yet he was the only real candidate, because he's one of the few people Rick would listen to, given their history.

 

I still like Glenn - I think when they give him the right material, he's still one of the best parts of the show (I really enjoyed the episode last season where he woke up at the abandoned prison, met Tara, punched Abraham, etc.). The problem is he's often written as a symbol, not a character.

 

Maggie seems to have lost focus as a character. 

Jumping off your post.

 

I think Carol has shown much humanity throughout, from the humane way she dealt with Lizzie, to the necessary (imo) neutralizing of Karen and David. It always ticked me off that Rick banished her for her actions when in a previous (I think) episode he and a few others drove past a hitchhiker clearly in need of rescue and later picked up said hitchhiker's stuff after he had been killed by walkers.

 

ZA makes for a lot of moral ambiguity.

 

The hitchhiker wasn't a member of their group left to burn in the prison yard, with no one having any idea who was responsible.

I know! Her expression was priceless. "The fuzzy man and the hat nerd are getting on my nerves." 

 

In an interview Scott Gimple said the little girl was terrified when "the hairy man" ran up to her. I think they probably had a struggle getting her into the scene. Her face did crack me up. 

 

Scarey Mary specifically said "People came and took this place, and they raped, and they killed, and they laughed over weeks, and we got out. And we fought and we got it back." She doesn't say if they killed the aggressors. It made me wonder if the aggressors simply moved on and when Gareth, Scarey Mary and Company got out they took back Terminus from the Z's. What realy got me out of my chair was that last "Then" flashback. Who exactly was the buff asshole dude with back hair, the one that was picking the next victim as if he was saying "ennie meenie miney mo" while grinning like a deviant?  Hmmmm (Holy Shit) .. I'll save that for a different thread...

 

The man in the flashback was the one who was in the crate Rick reluctantly opened. I guess the Terminus group kept him in there to torment him, the way Varys on Game of Thrones did with the man who castrated him and abused him.

[natyxg]

I hope Michonne get's her sword back. I don't know how, but I hope it makes it's way back to her.

Maybe Gareth will have it when he comes back. Cause I think he will.

 

 

I completely understand what you're saying, but I still liked when Carol just let the walkers have her instead shooting her in the head. It may not have been the more humane option, but considering all the horrible things that they've done, I don't think they should've been shown any mercy. But yes, I do share your concerns about Carol going off the edge. She does really toe the line. Rick too. Hopefully, now that she's reunited with the rest of the group, she can maintain her morality - however moral you can be in this messed up zombie apocalyptic world.

 

As much as I liked Carol this last episode, I think she will end up badly. She is really badass right now, but she also seems, to me, to be losing her humanity. Like she has convinced herself that she does what she has to do, which is true, but in order to do it she has made herself very cold.

 

OK, I have read through all five pages of posts here and I'm fairly convinced that I'm alone but I just don't get all the love for this show. I marathoned it last year because I hate being out of the pop culture loop in any way, and while I thought some episodes were pretty good, all in all I think it's really uneven and worse yet, boring a lot of the time.

 

I understand what you mean. I really liked season 1, and since then have tried to keep loving the show as much, but it keeps falling short. I keep watching because I do like zombie stories and because I keep hoping it will get better (and I like most characters), even though too many times it can be boring. They drag the storylines too long and too many times focus too much on the drama aspect of it all, with these really boring talking episodes one after the other.

 

I really thought the last episode was great though. Best I've seen in a while.

 

I really don't care if she dies or not, but I think they went over the top to redeem Carol's character.  It was just too much for one person to be able to accomplish.  I still don't like her because she's creepy and I'd be scared to close my eyes if she were anywhere near me.

I'm just glad they didn't stretch out the whole Terminus thingy.  And how convenient that the butchers started at the other end so that it was the nameless poor bastards that got their throats slit first?

 

I don't see all of this as a way to redeem Carol. If anything, I think they are keeping her on the same road they put her on when she killed the two sick people and Lizzy. She gets shit done, but it's dying inside. I saw it, specially, when she was so cold when she said she was probably gonna go kill people, and when she seemed to be going into the cabin to kill that dude, after Tyresse told her about Judith. I don't see redemption, I think things will become very sad for her and then she'll die. I don't think she will make it past this season (or even past this half season). The Lizzy thing was just too much for her.

[HalcyonDays]

I had no problem with Rick or Carol allowing those Termites to turn. I guess in my view, their actions were deliberate and evil. Killing someone in self-defense - which is what Rick and the others mostly do - is one thing. Deliberately leading people to a human slaughter house and killing them for their own selfish gain is another thing. Let them turn, I say. But then, I wouldn't be the moral compass on that show.

 

Good point about the waste of meat. Maybe they learned how to cure the meat - you know, make salami or cured cold cuts out of the excess??

[Pete Martell]

I think in some cases, letting them turn is also using them as a weapon. More walkers to surprise their enemies. 

[sidekickgirl]

I had the feels big time. Liquid leaked out of my eyes when Darryl/carol reunited. And when Rick saw Judith? The ugly cry started. Great season opener, can hardly wait to see where it goes from here.

[Bruinsfan]

Of course it could be that eating infected human flesh might have done something to them as well. They probably didn't know that everyone's got the virus.

I don't know that eating human flesh would get people more infected by the zombie virus than they already are since everyone has it, but a big practical problem with cannibalism is that you can catch any disease that another human being might have had. Cooking everything well done would be even more of a necessity than with pork, and with prion diseases like Creutzfeldt–Jakob even that wouldn't be enough.

 

It still amazes me how much they turned the Carol character around from the first season and a half (or so).

Yeah, even Alexis Denisof's character on Angel didn't make that extreme a turnaround from helpless to awesome.

 

I have similiar feelings about Carol letting the walkers get Mary instead of just giving her a head shot. Why intentionally inflict that on someone? Whether they deserve it or not, it says something about Carol that she would do that when there was another, more humane option. Slippery slope, slippery slope.

I have to admit, in Carol's shoes I'd probably have done the same thing. I'd save my mercy (and bullets) for people who aren't clearly guilty of murdering and eating children.

[DearEvette]

I must  chime in my love for the season opener.  I hated last season.  Hated it!  I only liked one or two episodes but I completely disliked how dispersed (and dispirited) everyone was. So this one with everyone together and all the reunions made me feel better about the show.  I felt like I crew needed a 'Win'.  This was satisfactory.

 

I did have  few quibbles, though.

 

As much as I love Carole, i felt her Terminator-John McClane thing was a bit much.  It felt like fan -pandering, TBH.  i would have preferred for everyone, including Carole, to had a hand in getting them all free.  This crew and tough and hard, they should all have gotten a piece of the glory, imo.

 

I also don't mind Tyreese struggling with not trying to kill people.  It reminded me of Michonne and Carl's conversation from last season's finale, one of the few epis last season I liked.  There is a point when you feel like you turn into a Monster.  I thin Tyreese was trying to hold it back, while everyone else either has already had (Michonne, Rick) or are inching toward (Carole) their own Monster.  Maybe Tyreese feels that he can't give into it.  I think it is a spectrum all the characters are on and each are deciding where their line is. 

 

i also think Mullet Man is a fraud.  You can't just kill the zombies with your scientific bio-buzzer.  Everyone has the disease so you'd also have to cure the living people so they don't turn. 

 

So glad every one is back together.

 

Didn't miss Beth, though.

[Portia]

Tyrese busting thru that door like the Kool-Aid man

Bwahahahaha!  "OH YEEEEAAAAAHHH!"

[nodorothyparker]

As much as I liked Carol this last episode, I think she will end up badly. She is really badass right now, but she also seems, to me, to be losing her humanity. Like she has convinced herself that she does what she has to do, which is true, but in order to do it she has made herself very cold.

 

I think if this was really true, she wouldn't have caught up with the group at the end.  She could have very easily walked away and they never would have known who set off the events that made their escape possible or had any idea she was there at all.  She very obviously feels very deeply for them.

 

Carol and Rick are actually very similar, I think.  They've both overcorrected from former weaknesses and gone a little off the deep end from where they had to fight their way back to a newer, hardened version of their former selves that they need to be to survive this world.  If Rick can find some kind of peace within himself about what he has to be now, there's nothing to suggest she can't as well.

Edited October 13, 2014 by nodorothyparker

[TigerLynx]

Excellent episode!!!

 

I liked Glenn being the conscience, Darryl backing up Rick, Maggie and Carl being confident Rick and Co. would return for them, Carol being a badass, Carol leaving Mary for the Walkers, and Rick saying let him turn.  I loved the reunions.

 

What I loved most was Rick’s group has grown tougher, they have been attacked, tortured, killed, have defended themselves, and have killed when they had to, but once they were free they didn’t go back and slaughter any survivors because they are still better people than the Termites or Governor were.

[40Love]

I loved when Carol said to Tyreese, "I'm going to kill people."

 

My favorite line too. It was all Kurt Russell from "The Soldier": "I'm going to kill them all" LOL!

 

I thought of another movie scene when Rick told the Termite Leader how he was going to kill him... Reminded me of Mel Gibson in the first "Lethal Weapon" when he was hanging from the hook and being tortured: "I'm going to fucking kill all of you". Heh!

 

On the other hand, during the Grimes family reunion at the end, I couldn't help laughing at how bored Judith looked!

 

LOL! I saw her expression as... "Where the hell have you been?! Stuff is constantly blowing up around me... that crazy little blond girl tried to kill me, TWICE!!... Then some gum-chomping sociopath sent Uncle T outside to fight all those zombies by himself and threatening to snap my neck.  I need a nap, oh and some milk if you have it!"

[Boofish]

I don't think in the ZA  world you can afford to hold grudges. For the most part, they all have reasons they could hate each other and let it fester. At the end of the day, they can trust each other and would obviously kill and die for one another and that's what counts. No other group has shown this type of loyalty. For God's sake, Garreth brother Alex was the lunch special and all that hipster doofus was worried about was the shell count!!

[SoSueMe]

I think if this was really true, she wouldn't have caught up with the group at the end.  She could have very easily walked away and they never would have known who set off the events that made their escape possible or had any idea she was there at all.  She very obviously feels very deeply for them.

 

Carol and Rick are actually very similar, I think.  They've both overcorrected from former weaknesses and gone a little off the deep end from where they had to fight their way back to a newer, hardened version of their former selves that they need to be to survive this world.  If Rick can find some kind of peace within himself about what he has to be now, there's nothing to suggest she can't as well.

Overcorrected. That is a very good description.

[diebartdie]

Hey, so nice to see so many of you from TWOP!!!! That episode last night was probably the best one ever (to me)! It was so exciting, my heart was pounding nearly the entire time, Carol being such an utterly BAMF was completely satisfying, the emotional reunions had me crying and there was one scene that really had me chuckling (the guy wriggling away from that  flaming zombie was so silly! Come on dude, stand up and walk away from the zombie!) I think Michonne, Carol, Carl, Daryl and Rick all fully accept this brutal new reality. Tyresse did what had to be done but I do not think he accepts this world so I dont think he is long for this world. I think Maggie fully accepts it, I think Glenn aknowledges it but does not accept it. I think the Termites blew right past acceptance into perversion.

 

The makeup and special effects on this show and this episode in particular are just incredible. The zombies are really looking even more gnarly (although seriously, clothing would rot away, there should be more naked zeds than clothed zeds and that could be done on tv, all the dangly bits would have just fallen off rendering the z's essentially genderless).

 

I do have one nit pick though. When our heroes (and the red shirts) are at the trough and Gareth is being all menacing there was a big burst of gun fire. Who did that and why? Other than that, I thought that was a perfect episode from top to bottom.

 

Will Michonne sneak back to Terminus to rescue her kantana?

[GodsBeloved]

I have to admit, in Carol's shoes I'd probably have done the same thing. I'd save my mercy (and bullets) for people who aren't clearly guilty of murdering and eating children.

Its not about mercy for Mary. Its about humanity for Carol. Plus Carol didn't have to waste a bullet on Mary. She did have Darryl's crossbow LOL

[kj4ever]

I've always got the feeling from this world that the absolute worse thing that can happen to any of them is to end up a Walker.  I know when T-Dawg or whoever was sacrificing himself for Carol she was all "We promised we'd never let each other turn!!"  I've heard it a few other times.  It was the ultimate revenge for Carol and Rick to let them turn, and I was glad they did.

 

I was worried about the whole Carol the warrior thing being unrealistic, but I think they did it well.  Carol may have been weak and sneaky at times, but she was never dumb.  She used her brains to get them out and it held to character I think.

 

While I was happy Daryl was emotional to see Carol, I don't know how much I like this  post Beth-breakthrough Daryl.  He just didn't seem bad ass like he normally does in this episode, like something was off.

 

Tyreese, ugh a million times ugh.  I just want him off my TV.  I did find it interesting when Carol said she was going to get him and Judith to Terminus safely and then leave that Tyreese wasn't all "no Carol, stay."  I wonder how much forgiveness was really there, or if it was possibly I need this crazy murderer to survive.

 

It'd be interesting to see if Carol's murdering spree will be brought up after everyone settles down.  Tyreese was definitely the only one who seemed to be close to the ones killed, so I don't know if it would make a difference.  I'm also interested to see what Rick has to say to pigtails, and how Maggie will react when she finds out that Glen outright lied to her.

 

I hate all the comic book caricatures.  Abe, Eugene and Rosita just need to Go. Away.

[Chief Queef]

Great premiere! TWD has been guilty of being boring in the past (something an action adventure show with zombies should never be), but the opening scene on the killing floor had me genuinely stressed and yelling at the screen! And I felt bad for the poor semi-anonymous cannon fodder dudes who got bled out...what a crappy way to go.

 

I don't think the rape/abuse flashback was intended to make us feel sympathetic toward the Termites. There was no sympathy to be felt there, they were crazy child-killing cannibals and they needed to go. I think it was intended to a) contextualize how they became so crazy, and b) serve as foreshadowing of the possible fate of Rick's group, who still see themselves as "good guys" as the Termites once were. One of the show's main themes is the longer you survive the ZA, the more brutal and animalistic you're forced to become until you lose your humanity entirely—even if you were a kind, peaceful person before the ZA. They already illustrated that with the Governor, and it's not hard to see the Rickettes have advanced well down that path themselves.

 

And I'm glad Tyreese eventually grew some balls with that creepy Termite in the cabin but he made sooo many stupid mistakes along the way. If you're going to kill an enemy, kill him. Do not have a nice chat with him first and tell him your baby's name. Do not tie his hands loosely in front of him when you could tie them behind him and, I dunno, secure him to something so he can't lunge at you or your baby. And if you insist on tying him in a stupid way, for god's sake do not leave him within arm's reach of your baby. The whole scene annoyed me because it was either a poorly written plot device (which I thought the writers had mostly stopped doing?), or Tyreese just had crappy survival instincts, which doesn't make sense either given how long he's survived. It seems like the show still wants to give us sympathetic characters who are struggling to adapt, when...dude. That ship sailed several seasons back. Most of the people still alive are thieves, rapists, murderers and/or cannibals. It's okay to kill in self-defense.

 

And I'm fine with them never "redeeming" Carol. I like her badass Rambo missions and I'm happy to see a character who was originally written as a useless drip going through a developmental arc and adapting to the situation. She's not "bad", she's just ahead of the curve and way ahead of characters like Tyreese, who just now seems to be noticing he's in the middle of a ZA and people aren't as neighborly as they used to be.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Chief Queef

[bosawks]

If they go the course of Carol is okay with Rick and knows that he accepts her back in the fold and treats her as a valued asset again and now she is able to die I am going to be hella pissed.

[HalcyonDays]

I do have one nit pick though. When our heroes (and the red shirts) are at the trough and Gareth is being all menacing there was a big burst of gun fire. Who did that and why?

 

That big burst of gun fire was Carol blowing up the propane tank. That's what you mean, right? The explosion shook the building and ignited some zombies.

 

If they go the course of Carol is okay with Rick and knows that he accepts her back in the fold and treats her as a valued asset again and now she is able to die I am going to be hella pissed.

 

Oh man, don't even speculate on that. That would be the worst message ever. You finally make peace with things and become a badass, and get killed. No!

 

I think Eugene is lying about the cure. He has no idea at all how to cure the populace. The smart thing would be to tell another, in case you somehow bite it, but if he does, he knows he is now expendable.

 

Gareth is still alive. He was only shot in the shoulder. He will appear and I bet will be carrying Michonne's katana. Good - she needs it back!

[Sir RaiderDuck OMS]

...he and a few others drove past a hitchhiker clearly in need of rescue and later picked up said hitchhiker's stuff after he had been killed by walkers.

 

ZA makes for a lot of moral ambiguity.

I always saw that as Rick's final transition from a police officer who was also the leader of his group to someone who was the leader of his group, period. He saw a distressed hitchhiker who was running from walkers but who may have already been bitten by one, or may have been a plant working for the The Governor, and just didn't want to deal with the risk. Season One Rick would have taken the hitchhiker in without question and possibly suffered serious consequences (for instance, if the stranger had been bitten and then turns while they're all crammed in the car together).

ITA with everyone else who feels that being brutalized yourself does not lead to brutalizing others on this scale. I see what TPTB were going for, but don't agree with their parallel.

Anyone else wish Rick or Carol had point-blank asked the Termites "How are you guys any better than the walkers?"

[SoSueMe]

I liked that Carol wasn't interested in hearing Scary Mary's rationale for cannibalistic Terminus. She just wanted to know where her people were and she wasn't skittish about a shot in the leg to try and get the info. Two beats and then she wasn't wasting any more time with Mary. 

[Pixiebomb]

Anyone else wish Rick or Carol had point-blank asked the Termites "How are you guys any better than the walkers?"

To which they would have replied, "We cook our meat."

[ghoulina]

I think if this was really true, she wouldn't have caught up with the group at the end.  She could have very easily walked away and they never would have known who set off the events that made their escape possible or had any idea she was there at all.  She very obviously feels very deeply for them.

 

Exactly. I don't think she went in there to kick ass and take names because she had become this very cold woman who enjoys taking people out. She did it because she realized that people she LOVED were in trouble, and she was in a position to help. Carol has grown to the point where she is cold when she needs to be, but she still has a heart, IMO. She was absolutely gutted when she had to kill Lizzie last season. She did it, because it had to be done and Carol has become a woman who can get shit done. But that doesn't mean she is numb to it. She also showed great remorse when listening to Tyrese talk about what losing Karen did to him, and knowing inside that she had caused his grief. 

 

 And I don't know how anyone who saw her reunion with Daryl could think she's become too cold. She's just learned to compartmentalize, and is not longer the paralyzed wimp she was at the onset of the ZA. When Rick shuts down his emotions and starts taking people out, he's a total badass - but when Carol does it she's a scary, ice queen? Not to me. 

 

I do have one nit pick though. When our heroes (and the red shirts) are at the trough and Gareth is being all menacing there was a big burst of gun fire. Who did that and why?

 

I assumed it was the fellow Termites, who were shooting as the walkers were getting near the fence. 

 

I don't think the rape/abuse flashback was intended to make us feel sympathetic toward the Termites. There was no sympathy to be felt there, they were crazy child-killing cannibals and they needed to go. I think it was intended to a) contextualize how they became so crazy, and b) serve as foreshadowing of the possible fate of Rick's group, who still see themselves as "good guys" as the Termites once were.

 

I completely agree with this. I was one who expressed sadness at discovering their back story. But I should be clear - I didn't feel sympathy for them in the end. Not at all. They had become vile human beings, and needed to be put down. I just thought the overall concept was sad - that people could start out well meaning and be driven over the edge to do completely heinous things. It is a slippery slope - to walk that line of becoming hard enough to survive this world, but not letting it take your soul. Obviously the Termites lost that battle.

[Boofish]

On the Talking Dead the poll was "Did the Termites get what they deserved" and it was a landslide - 97% said YES. Conan O'Brien quipped that the other 3% were the mothers of the actors who played the Termites. All the survivors have seen the worse of humanity, I cut them no slack (pun intended)

 

Edited to add

I think the fundamental difference with the Ricktones is they only take out their anger on people who start (@& with them. As my mother used to say "don't start none, there won't be none" Simply as that

Edited October 13, 2014 by Boofish

[FishyJoe]

I don't believe Eugene for a second. The only way to gain credibility in the scientific world is to publish your findings so that other people can verify your work. If you can't explain things other scientists in writing, you'll have no credibility in the science world. 

[ghoulina]

All the survivors have seen the worse of humanity, I cut them no slack (pun intended)

 

Oh yea, it's not about cutting them slack. I don't think what happened to them is an excuse for their behavior, but it's an explanation. It's kind of like when you find out that a notorious serial killer was horribly abused as a child. You don't say, "Oh okay, well then you go on your merry way. Never mind the fact that you killed all of these people". But you might say, "Wow, that's really sad. He was probably a lovely little boy before that happened to him". 

 

Yes, most of our survivors at this point have experienced some pretty nasty events. But not everyone reacts the same way to trauma. Just like there are millions of kids who were abused and DON'T grow up to be serial killers. I can't really say what it is that causes some people to snap while others can get through it without losing themselves entirely....but I don't think it's the case that anyone who is "bad" in the end was "bad" from the start. 

[Morrigan2575]

And I don't know how anyone who saw her reunion with Daryl could think she's become too cold. She's just learned to compartmentalize, and is not longer the paralyzed wimp she was at the onset of the ZA. When Rick shuts down his emotions and starts taking people out, he's a total badass - but when Carol does it she's a scary, ice queen? Not to me.

 

Amen!  LOL

 

I actually like the posts/posters that talked about how Rick/Carol are a lot alike, I never realized it before but they are and they aren't.  They have similar reactions but are going through them at different times.  Rick went from moral authority, to badass leader, to broken man hiding in his imaginary farming world, to crazy ass...kill em all.  Hopefully now that he's found some hope (Judith is alive, group reunited, redemption in his belief/faith in Carol) he can find peace and a balance to his nature.

 

Carol has gone through a similar arc but at different times and in different ways, she went from meek/hiding in her own world to community leader, to crazy kill anything that threatens us, to this sad sort of resigned figure, a balance of the 3, she's willing and capable of killing when necessary but isn't in the kill everyone mode (if she was she would have backed Rick up, instead she lead him back to Judith).  She still have an amazing heart as seen by how much the reunion with Rick and Daryl affected her, even finding Rick's watch had an emotional impact.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[kaydub]

There seems to be a lot of fandom battling over a love interest for Daryl, but I just like the rare moments when he connects with someone.  I liked his reunion with Carole, but it was the second embrace, when he kind of fell into her because he couldn't bear to let her go, that really stole the show.  They have both come so far and evolved into full-fledged humans through their relationship with each other.

 

I loved that. That here were these two humans who were broken down more or less, and had sufferered abuse in different ways, and were somewhat dependant on others, and through their friendship with each other, and with the rest of the group, as well as getting away from the abusers, or those who somewhat brought out the worst in them (ed, merle), they grew, and became more independent and confident. it's clear no matter what happens in terms of a love interest with daryl (or carol, even), those two will always have a friendship and a kinship with each other. and yes! i adored that second hug as well. the first one was the shocking, happy-to-see-you hug, the second one was more emotion, more omg-are-you-really-here hug, where he just fell into her, head dipped against her. i loved it!

[JackONeill]

Speaking of quibbles (I keep forgetting to mention this): I find it hard to believe that this was the only time that a herd of walkers came to visit Terminus.  That fence looked far weaker than the one at the prison.  And you would expect the prison fence to be a HELL of a lot stronger.  Yes, Carol blew a chunk of it down, but still we saw what a herd did to the fence at the prison.

 

Yes, they sent people out to set off fireworks and had other ways to distract the walkers, but what about the aroma of cooking meat.  That carries.  And talk about ringing a dinner bell!!!  And once you start shooting at walkers that get too close, the rest show up.

 

I mean, I liked the episode a lot, but that sort of bothered me. 

[Timetoread]

That was fantastic! I was cheering through most of it. So many thoughts...

Finally a Carol I can get behind. I couldn't stand mousy, victimized catatonic Carol of season 1. Nor the scheming, ungrateful, and defeatist Carol of season 2 and 3. Nor the supposed new and improved Carol who is cool with pre-emptive murder of last season. But THIS Carol, I like. Not just the all-out badassery but the maturity and wisdom she's finally acquired. I feel like the Grove made the difference. I HATED what she did to Karen and David and agreed with Rick for banishing her. But, and I said so at the time, having to kill Lizzy (another preemptive murder) and face Tyrese were her punishment and her lesson and she learned it. I enjoyed seeing her and Rick make up. I have a feeling he'll be an open ear to her from now on.

Re Glenn - I didn't see moralistic Glenn as new, I saw him as old. Glenn has ALWAYS been the one to try to save people. He saved Rick in episode one. It was nice to have him back.

Re the Termites - I don't feel sorry for them but I couldn't help but reflect on something I learned years ago on the Discovery Channel about how the human body isn't truly able to tolerate long term canabalism. It causes what we know in another species as mad cow disease. The brain turns to mush. I am now speculating that eating human flesh activates the virus in a way. These people are not yet dead but the hunger begins. There is not enough rape and pillage to make sane adults actively acquire humans and child humans at that, for the sake of consumption. History has examples of people starving to death rather than opting to eat the family dog. We have a STRONG mental override that requires the most extreme of situations, and even then cannabilsim tends not to be continued after the threat of death has been removed. I don't think revenge or survival is what motivated the Termites. I think it was hunger for human flesh, which is indeed how the virus manifests in the zombies.

Eugene is FOS. Period. Interesting note about Abe and girlfriend. I'm guessing that they are in the family way...

Speaking of - I've been waiting MONTHS for Rick and Carl to lay eyes on their baby. It was as beautiful as I'd thought it would be. But the look on the baby's face cracked me up. It was like she was saying, "I'm sick and damn tired of being manhandled today! Give me back to Carol!"

[Ronin Jackson]

Best episode in a good while... actually easily one of the top three or four in the entire series.  I honestly thought season 4 was mostly crap and almost wasn't back for this season, so hopefully this isn't an isolated bit of awesome in a sea of mediocre as has been the case for this show too often.

[Iguessnot]

 

No. I think he literally beat the dude to death. He clearly had a lot of pent up emotions after everything that happened at The Grove, and the gum-chomping Termite had to bear the brunt of it.

 

Only problem is that the dude dared Tyrese to kill him (with the knife), and Tyrese resorted to his fist screaming "I won't". All we saw was a dude knocked out cold. Secondly when Carol started towards to cabin ready to settle things, Tyrese told her he told care of it but he had the demeanor of a lying child who is hiding something from his mom.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Iguessnot

[RedHackle]

oh holy jesus this episode!  Carol: completely covered from head to toe in awesome.  Rick: managing to stow that homemade wooden shiv in his sleeve - totally awesome.  Tyreese: setting his watch for clobbering time, nine kinds of awesome.  And although that baby-threatening bastard deserved to die a horrible death, has there ever been a show on TV that Chris Coy didn't eventually guest-star on, and totally knock it out of the park? This guy is like one of the best guest star actors of all times.  We salute you, Barry the Fairy!

 

What else was completely cool? Mary, sorry, you needed to die. A lot.  I'm sorry things were bad and horrible for you, but come on, there has to be some kind of middle ground between Idyllic Hippie Land where we get raped and killed by everyone and Cannibal.  What, those were the only options?

 

And finally, omg omg omg,Morgan Morgan MORGAN!!! Lookin' good, buddy! 

 

How the hell do I get through the week???

[meep.meep]

The shooting they heard at the trough was Carol. It clearly was a machine gun. The Termites may have returned fire but most of what you heard was Carol. Followed by the explosion.

If Carol and Tyrese hadn't run into the guy on the road, she wouldn't have been able to blow the tank - she used his fireworks to set it off. Just like the people in the train car making weapons, she's learned to improvise.

[Rosiejuliemom]

I just can't get all those candles out of my head. I know that candles may not be that hard to come by, but I can't help but think that the Termites may have been applying a "waste not want not" mentality to their victims. You can render candles from animal fat...why not try human?

 

As of right now, Gareth deserves to take that red-handled machete to the top of the skull. Then, he and Guillermo can start a club.

 

Seeing all of those stuffed animals gave me cold chills. Mary got what she deserved.

 

Re Michonne's kitana: Did anyone else notice the handle of her improv weapon? It looked very similar to her kitana handle. Did I miss her taking cloth and making a grip or am I imagining things again?

[Ronin Jackson]

Only problem is that the dude dared Tyrese to kill him (with the knife), and Tyrese resorted to his fist screaming "I won't". All we saw was a dude knocked out cold. Secondly when Carol started towards to cabin ready to settle things, Tyrese told her he told care of it but he had the demeanor of a lying child who is hiding something from his mom.

 

Yeah, Tyrese definitely didn't kill the guy, and he will come back at some point.

 

Interesting, at this point in the show I have no idea where it is headed.  Usually I have some clue, partly due to having read the comics, and partly due to the story being telegraphed.  But taking care of the Terminus story so quickly has left the show in an interesting, open ended place.  We know the Terminus people (including the guy Tyrese didn't kill) will come back, and Morgan is going to play a role, but how that will all unfold is something I don't have much of a read on.

[CletusMusashi]

Is it really terrible that this was my first thought too? Why would they need so much meat?

 

 

Atkins diet.

[kikismom]

 

Good point about the waste of meat. Maybe they learned how to cure the meat - you know, make salami or cured cold cuts out of the excess??

Right before the Termites are about to resume killing the guys at the trough, Gareth said "we need to get these on the driers by six o'clock" (or sometime)...and so I assumed they are air-curing the excess.

 

 

 

While I was happy Daryl was emotional to see Carol, I don't know how much I like this  post Beth-breakthrough Daryl.  He just didn't seem bad ass like he normally does in this episode, like something was off.

 

 

I feel like Daryl was a character that started with this nihilistic bravado (at the farm he says to Herschel that it's as good a time to die as any) and gradually as he has allowed himself to connect with people, being alive is more meaningful...notice that when they are at the trough, the other men are all leaning forward, but only Daryl is looking skyward---I wondered if he was praying, or calling on Merle or just unable to deal with not dying in a fight or war but dying on his knees helpless and never thought he would come to that.

I was okay with it.

I noticed there is a specific camera shot of Daryl's face when Rick and Carl reunite with Judith and it's not all happy-cool (although I'm confident he was glad of it); I felt there was a strong hint of poignant envy that Rick had a family, had a son and a baby. It's quite an expression on Daryl's face.

Although I could be misreading all of that---we did have a lot of beer.

[ghoulina]

Speaking of quibbles (I keep forgetting to mention this): I find it hard to believe that this was the only time that a herd of walkers came to visit Terminus.  That fence looked far weaker than the one at the prison.  And you would expect the prison fence to be a HELL of a lot stronger.  Yes, Carol blew a chunk of it down, but still we saw what a herd did to the fence at the prison.

 

My husband and I had that same conversation. Forget people, how did walkers not tear that place apart already?

[SoSueMe]

I just can't get all those candles out of my head. I know that candles may not be that hard to come by, but I can't help but think that the Termites may have been applying a "waste not want not" mentality to their victims. You can render candles from animal fat...why not try human?

 

As of right now, Gareth deserves to take that red-handled machete to the top of the skull. Then, he and Guillermo can start a club.

 

Seeing all of those stuffed animals gave me cold chills. Mary got what she deserved.

 

Re Michonne's kitana: Did anyone else notice the handle of her improv weapon? It looked very similar to her kitana handle. Did I miss her taking cloth and making a grip or am I imagining things again?

Re: Waste not want not. I am remembering all those rib section skeletons that were briefly shown on last season's finale. Could have been soup stock, lol.

[Pete Martell]

Only problem is that the dude dared Tyrese to kill him (with the knife), and Tyrese resorted to his fist screaming "I won't". All we saw was a dude knocked out cold. Secondly when Carol started towards to cabin ready to settle things, Tyrese told her he told care of it but he had the demeanor of a lying child who is hiding something from his mom.

 

We heard more punches and screaming from Tyreese after they cut away. I think he did kill the guy. He knew his reluctance had nearly cost Judith her life. I think they didn't show us him killing the guy because they didn't need to, there was already enough gore to go around, and that may have been too extreme (showing him beating a man to death) even for this show.

My husband and I had that same conversation. Forget people, how did walkers not tear that place apart already?

 

It seemed like they had some type of lookout system in place where they would learn about walkers on the way, and perhaps kill them before they got close. Only when the douchebag with the baseball cap was taken out did they become vulnerable.

[kaydub]

I've fanwanked that Tyreese was raised knowing he can really hurt somebody easily - and maybe has.  I don't see him as a coward, but more a gentle giant who has spent his life keeping fear and anger in check, so as not to go off and accidentally kill someone.

 

this this this and this. that's an interesting theory on why tyrese is unable to bring himself to kill - even a walker. it would explain a lot with him, even though he did step up in the end when the termite attacked judith. although i don't know how much more of stuff with her in danger i can take. i understand that there has to be that element of danger with her existing because of the reality they live in and all, but i just can't take babies or toddlers in dangerous or scary situations in movies and shows, gives me horrible anxiety, as a mom, and has for years. i had to mute the tv when judith started crying when the termite guy was threatening her to tyrese, i couldn't take it, agreed, she looked afraid.

and dumbass me of course, watched that happy reunion with the grimes family and with sasha and tyrese, the entire time thinking 'this is too happy. it's too peaceful and happy after what just happened, something's gonna happen to shatter it, why hasn't anyone checked to make 100% sure that the termite guy in the house is dead, what if he comes out, damnit rick turn judith away from the house!' i worked myself up completely and thankfully nothing happened (and i know that that would have been too much after an already eventful, gore filled episode, but once my mind gets started, especially where a baby/toddler/child is involved, i can't stop it...)

and well said about carol! yes indeed a badass kickass 40 year old woman who looks like a real woman. hell yeah. love it. and her hug/reunion with daryl. precious.

[La Dee Da]

The poor guy getting his face eaten by flambé walker - when people say sucking face is a great way to go, I don't think that's what they mean.

 

Carol is a BOSS!!! Boss of the hot sauce!!

 

Carol, man.  When she was ironing the laundry in season one, I was like "you'll be the first to go, lady".  Now I think she's indispensable, both for the survival of the group and for advancing the "what price will you pay to survive" aspects of the storytelling.

  

 

"I'm a friend of the chick with the sword and the kid with the hat."  Prepare to die.

 

Yes, Princess Bride!!  Also, I think there is a good Dr. Seuss story in that line. 

 

 
Is it really terrible that this was my first thought too? Why would they need so much meat?

No, it is not!  When they sprinted by the bones in last year's season finale, I thought "you fools!  You could make stock with those!", which are things this show makes you think!

[Pete Martell]

 

I noticed there is a specific camera shot of Daryl's face when Rick and Carl reunite with Judith and it's not all happy-cool (although I'm confident he was glad of it); I felt there was a strong hint of poignant envy that Rick had a family, had a son and a baby. It's quite an expression on Daryl's face.

Although I could be misreading all of that---we did have a lot of beer.

 

I mostly took it as Daryl being genuinely moved and happy for Rick. We've seen all these references in recent episodes to how much he loves Rick - he chose Rick and Rick's family over Joe and the Claimed group, even though he knew it could have cost him his life. He had the "you're my brother" conversation with Rick. He just saved Rick's life in this episode.

 

I guess they could be setting up some situation where he's torn between Rick and Carol, but I don't think he envies Rick.

[TexasChic]

Right before the Termites are about to resume killing the guys at the trough, Gareth said "we need to get these on the driers by six o'clock" (or sometime)...and so I assumed they are air-curing the excess.

One thing I noticed when I rewatched, during the part where they were dragging Rick into the butcher room, you get a quick look (I had to pause the DVR) of three bins labeled 'Burn', 'Feed', & 'Wash'. So I think they have a whole system to take care of all the 'meat', including burning the excess. 

 

I still don't see how the termites went from good guys to eating people. Killing people, yeah, okay I can buy that, don't trust anyone ever again. But why eat them?

Edited October 13, 2014 by TexasChic

[JenMcSnark]

Re Michonne's kitana: Did anyone else notice the handle of her improv weapon? It looked very similar to her kitana handle. Did I miss her taking cloth and making a grip or am I imagining things again?

 

That's what I was just coming to ask.  I totally thought that was the remains of the katana and was going to ask if anyone remembered it getting broken last season.

 

Also, I think the burst of gunfire heard at the trough was after Carol shot the propane tank (or whatever tank it was) and the walkers were all heading over there.  Didn't some of the Termites start shooting at them at that point?  Because the girls with the pokey sticks ran when they saw how many walkers were coming...presumably to get others to help, right?

 

I also think Tyreese did kill the Termite.  I thought he looked completely honest with Carol and his explanation made sense.  Also, upon rewatch, I thought that the last time we heard him yell (when the view was of the top of the cabin) and then the last punch, he may have said "I will!".  IDK, I'm probably making this up, but I could swear I didn't hear a definitive "T" sound at the end that last time.