S04.E03: Shalwar Kameez

[penelope79]

I don't think the Quinn/Carrie possible ship is out of the blue. I remember that, at TWoP, ever since Quinn made his first appearance and started to interact with Carrie, basically everybody predicted at least a one night stand (clearly not much more, because we couldn't imagine Brody dying back then, nor we had any idea that Quinn was about to become a recurring character first and then the male co-protagonist). Besides, as much as I love Damien Lewis, I was glad Brody died for several reasons, included that I always thought his relationship with Carrie was sick to say the least, while those subtle hints to Quinn made me think about him as a more viable option in the long run, and I warmed up to the idea of the two of them together.

That said, I was too caught off guard by all those remarks about him having feelings for Carrie, since so far writers have been quite subtle.

Then I thought that, maybe, the CIA is trying to find an explanation to Quinn's behaviour in certain, critical situations (that others, above, have already pointed out), and that the most logic one is that he may have feelings for her.

I don't think that whatever happens between them will be rushed: at the moment, they have a lot on their plate. But I'm pretty sure that something will happen this season, just because I can't see the writers avoiding it for such a long time now that Quinn comes back to be with Carrie side by side and they made clear even for casual viewers that he's basically Carrie's next love interest.

Edited October 14, 2014 by penelope79

[Milburn Stone]

That said, I was too caught off guard by all those remarks about him having feelings for Carrie, since so far writers have been quite subtle.

Then I thought that, maybe, the CIA is trying to find an explanation to Quinn's behaviour in certain, critical situations (that others, above, have already pointed out), and that the most logic one is that he may have feelings for her.

 

I don't think that whatever happens between them will be rushed: at the moment, they have a lot on their plate. But I'm pretty sure that something will happen this season, just because I can't see the writers avoiding it for such a long time now that Quinn comes back to be with Carrie side by side and they made clear even for casual viewers that he's basically Carrie's next love interest.

 

For sure we the viewers have known about Quinn's feelings for Carrie for some time (as evidenced by key decisions he's made, which have been pointed out, as you say). The CIA is just catching up. But I buy the new lack of subtlety. I think the events in Islamabad, and the crisis Quinn is going through as a result of them, are all the rationale needed for his feelings to reach the boiling point. 

 

As for whether we'll see Carrie reciprocate, I don't know. I can see a tragic scenario in which Quinn's feelings for Carrie overwhelm him--his feelings for Carrie are going to be one of the major arcs of this season, that much seems sure--but Carrie remains immune and/or oblivious. Perhaps until it's too late. But now I'm letting my imagination run away with me...

[eleanorofaquitaine]

Maybe it was that Quinn was angry at the idea that he "let" Sandy get killed? Like maybe they thought he and/or Carrie helped orchestrate Sandy's killing, but Quinn's anger proved he didn't? IDK. That was just one of the thoughts that ran through my head after that bit.

 

I mean, it is as good a theory as anything at this point.  I understand why Quinn would feel guilty about "letting" Sandy be killed because his job is to either hunt or protect, and he failed at the protection part with Sandy.  So he feels he failed and he feels guilty about it.  That makes sense to me.  But objectively, his decision-making was right, once Sandy was out of the car.  What more could he have done?  So his instincts were correct there, no matter how much others seem to want to blame him for Sandy's death.

 

But it could be that Dar Adal was trying to suss out what happened, and Quinn's role in it in that little scene.  My sense, though, is that Dar was trying to say something about Quinn's readiness to leave the job, and since the whole sticking point seems to be whether or not Quinn can control his impulses, I am not sure how his almost choking Dar out would help with that.

[Milburn Stone]

My sense, though, is that Dar was trying to say something about Quinn's readiness to leave the job, and since the whole sticking point seems to be whether or not Quinn can control his impulses, I am not sure how his almost choking Dar out would help with that.

 

I wondered if the unspoken communication from Dar Adal was, "You know, of course, that we can't let you leave the job, because you know too much, and if you were ever to live a life outside the agency, we'd have to kill you."

[Loandbehold]

 

But it could be that Dar Adal was trying to suss out what happened, and Quinn's role in it in that little scene.  My sense, though, is that Dar was trying to say something about Quinn's readiness to leave the job, and since the whole sticking point seems to be whether or not Quinn can control his impulses, I am not sure how his almost choking Dar out would help with that.

I was thinking along the same lines. Quinn was pretty much numb. I think Dar Adal was trying to get a reaction out of him, to snap him out of drinking to excess and being numb to everything. Once Quinn can get angry, he can go back to being the agent he was - at least I think what Adal is hoping. I'm sure he also was glad that Quinn did stop himself from killing Adal. But, knowing Dar, that was probably secondary.

[Bcharmer]

At first, I thought Adal's comment, "I knew you weren't that far gone" meant, "You haven't lost your edge. You can still kill a man if you wanted to." Then later, I thought it might have meant "I knew you weren't that far gone because you stopped before you killed me."  In either case, it was weird.

[paramitch]

Poor Quinn. Every time I think I'm out, they pull me back in! I hope he doesn't completely lose it as a result of helping Carrie in her mission. Not to sound overdramatic, but I fear this may destroy his soul.

 

In terms of where I'm invested emotionally this season, it is totally and 100% with Quinn. I don't worry about Carrie -- her fragility works in different ways (and also tends to be her superpower). With Quinn, the look on his face at the end here, after he'd agreed to return to help Carrie -- I found it heartbreaking. I really hope this doesn't destroy him (I truly thought Dar Adal was a goner for a moment).

 

I did like Quinn's final scene with the hotel manager, and was pleased that they parted with relative warmth toward each other. She added to the diversity of the show's world in a really cool and believable way, and I think she was good for Quinn, and that he was good for her as well.

 

See, I always thought Peter had feelings for Carrie so this entire storyline feels entirely natural to me. In fact, I don't think the show has ever tried to hide his blatant favoritism, especially when he thought Saul had dumped Carrie in a psychiatric facility without any consideration, and he was clearly anguished during his visit and then later on when he found out she was pregnant.

 

Now, whatever is going on isn't strictly romantic (Quinn looks too fragile for anything to happen between him and Carrie to be honest); he is super messed up and Carrie is in denial about 90% of the things going on in her personal life. Anyway, I just wanted to say that I get it. They've worked closely for a while now, are always in danger, share the same crazy line of work and have managed to keep each other alive throughout all of it. Do I feel terrible for Quinn? Absolutely. He looks miserable while Carrie is able to keep going relatively unscathed, probably because the job gives Carrie life but on the other hand it's destroying Quinn. It's an interesting dance IMO and I like how the show has handled it so far. It's a good story.

 

I'm in total agreement. I wrote a bit about this last week, but I have always felt that Quinn was a refraction in a different way of the Carrie/Brody angle, in that just as Carrie fell for Brody through the intimacy of surveillance and observation, so do I feel that Quinn fell for Carrie, pretty spectacularly and quickly, early in Season 2 and for similar reasons (adding in of course his genuine admiration for her bravery). I like that it has almost all been subtext with him, but I feel like it's been there all along, from his visits to her in the hospital last season, right through to their final conversation about her pregnancy last year.

 

So this year, the progression makes sense to me. However, I've liked the fact that Quinn didn't progress to a romance with Carrie (and even seems to have fought those feelings in himself). I think Carrie's amazing in many ways, but her arrogance and edge and total blindness to others all mean that she's a human steamroller and that she has the capacity to totally destroy Quinn. I really think Quinn is very much aware of that in ways that Brody was not, so I'm crossing my fingers here that Quinn's story isn't tragic. I mean, we've seen that he was falling to pieces away from the job -- I'm kind of hoping that maybe when he's back in, that he is able to rally and even overcome his demons.

 

I keep forgetting to add that I'm also really enjoying Laila Robins' addition to the cast. I think the new cast members this season - Robins and Suraj Sharma - were good choices. I'd add Corey Stoll to that too, but we know what happened there :(. Biggest disappointment ever as he was one of main things I was looking forward to this season. 

 

I thought it was a bit too cutesy having Nazanin Boniadi use her real accent when pretending to be the British reporter and then switching back and forth. A little too gimmicky and it really took me out of the scene. Couldn't she have pretended to be Canadian or even an American working for a British news desk (eg. exactly the same cover Carrie used when talking to Aayan)?

 

I like Laila Robbins a lot -- I've always liked her as an actress. There's something brittle and elegant about her that I think works really well in "Homeland" and its ultra-paranoid atmosphere. I would honestly also be happy to see her connect with Saul again on a long-term basis (let's face it, Mira hates the life he leads and will never understand it). Saul just seems so back in his element here, and she fit right in with that so well. He does things with such ease and it's really fascinating in such a constantly humming, tension-filled atmosphere.

 

I also liked the casting of Corey Stoll as Sandy, precisely because even in one episode, I do think he had immediate impact in a way that will resonate throughout the season. We certainly won't forget him.

 

I like Boniadi and her character so much that I thought the little "English" moment was a cute one. I also found myself really liking and caring about Fara in her nervousness before meeting Aayan. It was also so good to see the silent surveillance guy again (the one from Carrie's favorite team -- I can't remember his name but he looks like Matthew Perry's cute nerdy younger brother).

 

I thought the scene where Carrie confronted Aayan was superbly tense, all the more so because he was so genuinely scared, while Carrie was almost instantly a machine, absolutely on point and in the moment. Scenes like this make me definitely believe that Carrie's work can be as intoxicating for her as any chemical addiction. She was so calm, focused and superb in all the ways Fara had been unable to be in the previous setup that I could understand Aayan's confused reaction (even while I was rooting for Aayan to just get out of there before making a connection -- Carrie is so toxic, bless her heart).

 

I also think it's no accident that Carrie is already going off the grid in ways that parallel Sandy's in episode one, and I'm hoping Michael O'Keefe's character isn't able to figure out what she's up to just to stir up trouble for her. (I was really repulsed when he called her "Young lady," in the sitrep meeting, as if she were an errant schoolgirl. Talk about old-school. Ugh.)

Edited October 14, 2014 by paramitch

[eleanorofaquitaine]

So this year, the progression makes sense to me. However, I've liked the fact that Quinn didn't progress to a romance with Carrie (and even seems to have fought those feelings in himself). I think Carrie's amazing in many ways, but her arrogance and edge and total blindness to others all mean that she's a human steamroller and that she has the capacity to totally destroy Quinn. I really think Quinn is very much aware of that in ways that Brody was not, so I'm crossing my fingers here that Quinn's story isn't tragic. I mean, we've seen that he was falling to pieces away from the job -- I'm kind of hoping that maybe when he's back in, that he is able to rally and even overcome his demons.

 

 

I think that this is true, though to be fair, I don't think Brody's incredibly screwed up psyche or life was ever really Carrie's responsibility.  Both Carrie and Brody were spectacularly damaged people that recognized the damage in each other.  But Brody ended up with his life in shambles and dead ultimately because of Brody, not because of Carrie, in my view.

 

Interestingly enough, I actually do think that Quinn is a better match for Carrie in that he is unlikely to ever hurt her in the way that Brody hurt Carrie. (Which isn't to say I am a fan of the idea of them together).  At the end of the day, I am not sure how much Brody ever really cared about Carrie.  Maybe he couldn't, because of all that happened to him, but he certainly very rarely had her well-being in mind.  Quinn, for all that he too is damaged, actually seems to care about Carrie well-being. That being said, I agree with you that Quinn and Carrie is not a particularly good match for Quinn.  But he's in it, on some level.

 

I also think it's no accident that Carrie is already going off the grid in ways that parallel Sandy's in episode one, and I'm hoping Michael O'Keefe's character isn't able to figure out what she's up to just to stir up trouble for her. (I was really repulsed when he called her "Young lady," in the sitrep meeting, as if she were an errant schoolgirl. Talk about old-school. Ugh.)

 

 

 

Michael O'Keefe! That's who that was.  I also was repulsed by him calling her "young lady" but I also thought that was kind of heavy-handed - I mean, the guy knows she's now the station chief, and even if he is old-school, he can't be so stupid as to try to be condescending and sexist to her, to her face, in front of everyone else. Or maybe he can, since he was also apparently drunk.  But still, I wish that they had employed more subtlety in that scene.

Edited October 14, 2014 by eleanorofaquitaine

[Mozelle]

I thought it was a bit too cutesy having Nazanin Boniadi use her real accent when pretending to be the British reporter and then switching back and forth. A little too gimmicky and it really took me out of the scene. Couldn't she have pretended to be Canadian or even an American working for a British news desk (eg. exactly the same cover Carrie used when talking to Aayan)?

 

Oh, see. I didn't even know that the actress who plays Fara is actually British, so I was fine. I guess we can add her to the list. (In Cast in Other Roles thread, I pointed out that the man playing Harris is actually British and as such had counted only four British actors playing Americans in this series.)

 

And this makes me wonder who else was involved. Did the CIA plan the attack to rid themselves of someone who was giving classified information to The Bad Guys? Or is there a mole in the CIA who helped The Bad Guys plan the attack on Sandy? I originally thought that he was going to meet his source when the attack happened but what if he was meeting someone else? I also assumed that the source was the one who set him up for the attack but maybe the source was kidnapped or killed and whoever did it got the phone to contact Sandy. Heh, obviously I have no idea what happened since I am just throwing out a million different possibilities.

I really didn't understand Javardi's logic. I am here to make sure you aren't a loose cannon, you almost kill me, and then I'm like great, see ya! How does that make any sense? Since Quinn only almost killed someone (as opposed to actually killing someone), he seems fine?

 

I still believe that Sandy was going to meet his source. I think the source set him up, perhaps not too long after it was discovered that there was a survivor from the wedding bombing. 

[Constantinople]

I still believe that Sandy was going to meet his source. I think the source set him up, perhaps not too long after it was discovered that there was a survivor from the wedding bombing. 

 

Perhaps I'm too cynical, but I was thinking "they" were planning on taking out Sandy all along.  Presumably they knew Haissam Haqqani would be attending a wedding, but didn't care because the US would get the "credit'.  Possibly Haissam Haqqani was the last of "their" internal enemies they wanted eliminated, courtesy of the USA.  Then "they" take out Sandy to get rid of the loose ends so that it can't be traced back to them.

 

I'm just not sure what Aayal may or may not know that could be relevant, and why "they" haven't just killed him.

[allthatglitters]

Perhaps I'm too cynical, but I was thinking "they" were planning on taking out Sandy all along.  Presumably they knew Haissam Haqqani would be attending a wedding, but didn't care because the US would get the "credit'.  Possibly Haissam Haqqani was the last of "their" internal enemies they wanted eliminated, courtesy of the USA.  Then "they" take out Sandy to get rid of the loose ends so that it can't be traced back to them.

 

I'm just not sure what Aayal may or may not know that could be relevant, and why "they" haven't just killed him.

 

I was thinking along the same lines. "They" could be the Pakistani intelligence and Haggani was a thorn they couldn't take care of themselves for the political backlash. But who knows? "they" could be just about anybody from any side. Any side the writers want to steer "them".

 

There is more Quinn could have done in that intersection. Once he had Carrie sitting tight and Sandy was a lost cause, he backed the car up by pushing through the crowd. Makes sense because no one is going to voluntarily be driven over. And even if he does run one or two over...who cares? He'd already shot two of them already anyways.

 

What I wonder is why he didn't pull this move sooner? If not just after the small mob was banging on his vehicle then surely after the first one had managed to smash a window and reach inside. They were in a large powerful car. One could also assume it was beefed up and shielded if it was a CIA security vehicle. I assumed they were safe once all three were inside, and so they should have been if the script wasn't written to make him seem slow on the take there.

 

 

Also I found it absurd that a tall American blond (she wore her scarf quite loosely) woman walking around by herself on the street in Islamabad Pakistan, would not be approached by either children or other beggars, other curious people, or angry locals who would be upset towards any white westerner because of foreign policy including drones. The precedent of that general attitude was set in the first episode. Managing to evade all company and weave her way into an upstairs bathroom in the same building (or near) as Aayal is having coffee and then wailing loud enough to lure him into her seductive arms is a whole other level.

[Hava]

What happened to Virgil? It was strange seeing Max in the lead role. And I miss weird, mute Max.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

 

There is more Quinn could have done in that intersection. Once he had Carrie sitting tight and Sandy was a lost cause, he backed the car up by pushing through the crowd. Makes sense because no one is going to voluntarily be driven over. And even if he does run one or two over...who cares? He'd already shot two of them already anyways.

 

What I wonder is why he didn't pull this move sooner? If not just after the small mob was banging on his vehicle then surely after the first one had managed to smash a window and reach inside. They were in a large powerful car. One could also assume it was beefed up and shielded if it was a CIA security vehicle. I assumed they were safe once all three were inside, and so they should have been if the script wasn't written to make him seem slow on the take there.

 

 

I don't think it made Quinn seem slow on the take - initially, he was trying not to escalate the situation.  Quinn knew that there was already tension over the wedding bombing.  He also knew that Sandy's cover was blown, so he knew that running over Pakistanis in the street would immediately be blamed on the CIA, further escalating tensions.  So IMO he was trying not to escalate. Once the windows started breaking and the mob dragged Sandy off, all bets were off, though.  Plus, of course, once Sandy was out of the car, the mob moved a bit slightly.  That's how I read his hesitation to back up.

[Mozelle]

Perhaps I'm too cynical, but I was thinking "they" were planning on taking out Sandy all along.  Presumably they knew Haissam Haqqani would be attending a wedding, but didn't care because the US would get the "credit'.  Possibly Haissam Haqqani was the last of "their" internal enemies they wanted eliminated, courtesy of the USA.  Then "they" take out Sandy to get rid of the loose ends so that it can't be traced back to them.

 

I'm just not sure what Aayal may or may not know that could be relevant, and why "they" haven't just killed him.

 

Yeah, there are so many questions left to be answered. I mean, I do think Sandy was set up, but I guess I can agree with you about a plan to take out Sandy all along. Because it was quite sudden that the source reached out to Sandy needing to meet him the afternoon after the bombing. 

[The Solution]

This show was a lot more fun when Angela was still hanging around with RayAnne and Ricky.

[bluphoenix451]

What I wonder is why he didn't pull this move sooner? If not just after the small mob was banging on his vehicle then surely after the first one had managed to smash a window and reach inside. They were in a large powerful car. One could also assume it was beefed up and shielded if it was a CIA security vehicle. I assumed they were safe once all three were inside, and so they should have been if the script wasn't written to make him seem slow on the take there.

 

 

I thought he did try but the mob lifted the car and you could see the wheels spinning. I think once the mob had Sandy they dropped the car and he was able to get traction to get the car moving.

[Blakeston]

There is more Quinn could have done in that intersection. Once he had Carrie sitting tight and Sandy was a lost cause, he backed the car up by pushing through the crowd. Makes sense because no one is going to voluntarily be driven over. And even if he does run one or two over...who cares? He'd already shot two of them already anyways.

 

I don't think that's what the characters were referring to, though, when they talked about how Quinn could have done more.

 

The argument seemed to be that Quinn didn't go the extra mile to save Sandy because he was too busy trying to save Carrie. And Dar Adal made a reference to Quinn looking in Carrie's direction when Sandy was pulled out the window.

 

It doesn't sound to me like Quinn's critics were angry that he didn't drive away sooner. Driving away sooner (if it was possible) would have saved all three of them. It sounds like they're angry that he took his focus off of Sandy by looking out for Carrie.

[Raachel2008]

Since the middle of season 3, or maybe earlier, they've been hitting that Quinn has some feelings for Carrie. I don't mind it, but as they say, show me, don't tell me.

[Constantinople]

Michael O'Keefe! That's who that was.  I also was repulsed by him calling her "young lady" but I also thought that was kind of heavy-handed - I mean, the guy knows she's now the station chief, and even if he is old-school, he can't be so stupid as to try to be condescending and sexist to her, to her face, in front of everyone else. Or maybe he can, since he was also apparently drunk.  But still, I wish that they had employed more subtlety in that scene.

 

The character was heavy handed.

 

It also made me wonder what Lockhart was thinking promoting Redmond (Michael O'Keefe) to station chief, however temporarily as it turned out.  I wonder if this is the first time someone could smell the booze on Redmond.  Homeland's CIA agents such as Carrie and Quinn may drink to excess but I don't recall either of them ever showing-up to the office reeking of alcohol.  Lockhart must have heard something about Redmond.

 

True, Lockhart isn't the intelligence  or bureaucratic infighting prodigy he likes to think he is  -- see Dar Adal's remarks to Saul -- but you shouldn't have to be to see the red flags there.  Unless Lockhart's plan was that Redmond would either be a sacrificial lamb who could be counted on to screw-up and thus muddy the waters about Lockhart's involvement in authorizing the exchange of classified information for the hit list, or that Redmond would be a reliable yes-man flunky, or both.

 

That being said, I think Carrie handled herself well, both in the meeting, and immediately afterwards when she met with Redmond privately.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Constantinople

[Mia Nina]

 

paramitch said: I'm in total agreement. I wrote a bit about this last week, but I have always felt that Quinn was a refraction in a different way of the Carrie/Brody angle, in that just as Carrie fell for Brody through the intimacy of surveillance and observation, so do I feel that Quinn fell for Carrie, pretty spectacularly and quickly, early in Season 2 and for similar reasons (adding in of course his genuine admiration for her bravery). I like that it has almost all been subtext with him, but I feel like it's been there all along, from his visits to her in the hospital last season, right through to their final conversation about her pregnancy last year.

 

So this year, the progression makes sense to me. However, I've liked the fact that Quinn didn't progress to a romance with Carrie (and even seems to have fought those feelings in himself). I think Carrie's amazing in many ways, but her arrogance and edge and total blindness to others all mean that she's a human steamroller and that she has the capacity to totally destroy Quinn. I really think Quinn is very much aware of that in ways that Brody was not, so I'm crossing my fingers here that Quinn's story isn't tragic. I mean, we've seen that he was falling to pieces away from the job -- I'm kind of hoping that maybe when he's back in, that he is able to rally and even overcome his demons.

 

ITA with everything. He does seem to be fighting those feelings because let's face it, he knows everything about them spells doom, whether Carrie reciprocates or not. Maybe he'll rally, but his story appears to be headed down a very dark, tragic path.

[Milburn Stone]

I just realized I have no idea what, or who, Shalwar Kameez is.

[Blakeston]

It's an outfit worn in that part of the world. Kameez refers to a type of trousers, and a shalway is a type of shirt. The guy with the earpiece, who was apparently coordinating Sandy's murder, was wearing both.

[shapeshifter]

I just realized I have no idea what, or who, Shalwar Kameez is.

Me too.

It's an outfit worn in that part of the world. Kameez refers to a type of trousers, and a shalway is a type of shirt. The guy with the earpiece, who was apparently coordinating Sandy's murder, was wearing both.

Wasn't Carrie dressed that way too? I kept thinking: Why oh why would she not dye her hair dark for that place?

But then when I saw her in the traditional garb--and not just a head scarf--I thought: Oh. Okay, I guess. That almost works.

Maybe there are times when she wants to be identified as a Western woman*, and the blond hair is shorthand for that, whereas she can cover it at other times. But the bottle blond hair was still pretty visible even with the head scarf. Wearing the shalwar kameez kind of made up for it--especially when they did the long shot of her in the street.

*In real life, the show creators want her to be easily identified--but maybe Carrie would too.

Edited October 16, 2014 by shapeshifter

[scrb]

So they keep the Brody-Carrie romance alive too long and now they want to set up another pairing the first chance they get?

 

Carrie is good at making her bosses let her do whatever she wants but not so much with anything else, including being a spy.

 

So maybe if she has these intense affairs, it'll make her appealing?

[Milburn Stone]

So they keep the Brody-Carrie romance alive too long and now they want to set up another pairing the first chance they get?

 

It's far from a far-gone conclusion that a pairing is going to result from Quinn's devotion. His love could remain tragically unrequited. At the moment I see as much chance of that as of an affair. In fact, since we are clearly meant to care about Quinn this season (and I do), finding out whether his love gets reciprocated--or whether he'll sacrifice his life on the altar of an unrequited love--is one of the major points of interest of this season. I know nothing--but am highly motivated to find out.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Milburn Stone

[Sarah D. Bunting]

I like Quinn a lot and I like Friend's performance, but his "feelings" for Carrie have always felt so contrived and ill-fitting for the show and the character as we're supposed to understand him that I tend to forget the past examples you guys have brought up; they just didn't work for me and therefore apparently fell out of my head. It just feels tacked on.

[paramitch]

Sarah, for me the real shift on this topic was when Quinn realized that Carrie and Saul had preplanned the entire hospitalization/Crazy Carrie angle last season, just to draw in Javadi. That first scene Quinn had with her, when they let him in on it, he was blatantly adoring and practically had big hearts jumping out of his eyes at what she'd been willing to risk. Then at the end of the season, their late-night phone chats when he was surveilling her had the same intimacy as the constant cell-phone calls of Scully and Mulder years back on X-Files (funny how a hushed, late-night phone call can actually spotlight sexual tension).

 

And I totally got it -- for me, it all works because Carrie is so willing to sacrifice others for the sake of her country, in this ruthless terrible job, but most of all she's willing to sacrifice herself, and that's what keeps her lovable for me. Even with Brody, I felt like the line was still there and that she was able to be ruthless for her country over her own feelings when it mattered (despite tremendous guilt later of course).

 

So this all works for me so far as far as Quinn's feelings. In fact, the odd but cool thing for me is that I think much of Quinn's love for Carrie is a kind of professional admiration at how good she is when she needs to be, despite her capacity to totally upend the chessboard. The only thing I didn't like dramatically in this episode was the implication that Quinn's feelings are common knowledge, even with Dar or Saul -- I'm not sure I quite buy that, nor that Quinn would ever allow that, if that makes sense. He's so contained.

 

But I do buy that he feels them. Gah! I love Quinn, I love Carrie, but this season I am already hoping he gets over it and sobers up. I just don't want Carrie to be the death of Quinn. (Quinn, call me!)

 

ETA: Also, I am always a fan of inappropriately cheery exclamation points. ;-)

Edited October 16, 2014 by paramitch

[izabella]

So they keep the Brody-Carrie romance alive too long and now they want to set up another pairing the first chance they get?

I like Quinn a lot and I like Friend's performance, but his "feelings" for Carrie have always felt so contrived and ill-fitting for the show and the character as we're supposed to understand him that I tend to forget the past examples you guys have brought up; they just didn't work for me and therefore apparently fell out of my head. It just feels tacked on.

 

I find this insistence on romance to be a weakness of this show.  I guess they figured the Carrie/Brody relationship was such a big deal, that now they must include more romance? 

 

Stick to being a good spy show instead of contrived romance, please show!

[Constantinople]

Me too. Wasn't Carrie dressed that way too? I kept thinking: Why oh why would she not dye her hair dark for that place?

But then when I saw her in the traditional garb--and not just a head scarf--I thought: Oh. Okay, I guess. That almost works.

Maybe there are times when she wants to be identified as a Western woman*, and the blond hair is shorthand for that, whereas she can cover it at other times. But the bottle blond hair was still pretty visible even with the head scarf. Wearing the shalwar kameez kind of made up for it--especially when they did the long shot of her in the street.

*In real life, the show creators want her to be easily identified--but maybe Carrie would too.

I'm going with TPTB want Carrie to be easily identifiable for the viewers. That may not be realistic, but I think it's reasonable. Just as the men of the Night's Watch in Game of Thrones seldom wear hats despite living in the frozen North, or in battle scenes when, in general the red shirts wear helmets and the stars don't.

[ethalfrida]

I find this insistence on romance to be a weakness of this show.  I guess they figured the Carrie/Brody relationship was such a big deal, that now they must include more romance? 

 

Stick to being a good spy show instead of contrived romance, please show!

I so agree, Izabella. The story line is so cool that they do not need the element. But, you know, in all of the Len Deighton novels there's always a hot and heavy romance along with a compelling spy storyline. What're we to do????

[Hava]

I was all for Quinn/Carrie before, but I'm just not feeling it this season and I can't put my finger on why! I still want to see where this goes, but I'm wary. I found it annoying that three people in the last episode had to basically convince Quinn that he has feelings for Carrie. I think their interactions from previous season were so subtle that they could have been interpreted as romantic OR as brother/sister, so I don't know where all these people are getting the idea that Quinn is in love with Carrie.

 

And, please, let Quinn move on from his emo phase!

[meep.meep]

 

 

The argument seemed to be that Quinn didn't go the extra mile to save Sandy because he was too busy trying to save Carrie. And Dar Adal made a reference to Quinn looking in Carrie's direction when Sandy was pulled out the window.

It doesn't sound to me like Quinn's critics were angry that he didn't drive away sooner. Driving away sooner (if it was possible) would have saved all three of them. It sounds like they're angry that he took his focus off of Sandy by looking out for Carrie.

Well, Quinn was sent to the airport to get Carrie, so her safety was his primarily responsibility.  Saving Sandy from the danger that he put himself into, was a secondary mission.

 

Having rewatched, Quinn gets Sandy in the car and starts forward.  A bus/big truck pulls out from a side street and blocks him.  He tries to go back, but the crowd is lifting up the car and it won't go backwards.  Then they start breaking the windows.

 

He could have shot first, but then windows would be broken and Sandy or Carrie could have been taken.  He couldn't have driven forward or backwards.  The one thing he could have done was shoot Sandy.  Maybe that's why Carrie wanted to get out.

[FurryFury]

or me, it all works because Carrie is so willing to sacrifice others for the sake of her country, in this ruthless terrible job, but most of all she's willing to sacrifice herself, and that's what keeps her lovable for me.

 

Thank you. This is exactly what I was feeling for the last few seasons, and you've managed to sum it up pretty succinctly. 

 

In fact, the odd but cool thing for me is that I think much of Quinn's love for Carrie is a kind of professional admiration at how good she is when she needs to be, despite her capacity to totally upend the chessboard.

 

I think he also feels sorry for her. Pity can be a powerful motivator, especially considering the circumstances. 

 

I find this insistence on romance to be a weakness of this show.  I guess they figured the Carrie/Brody relationship was such a big deal, that now they must include more romance?

 

Why shouldn't they? I'm a bit sick of this understanding that romance is somehow a lesser emotion that snobby elite shows on cable should either avoid or deconstruct. While I do think that Carrie/Brody overtook the show somewhat, the writers still ultimately ended it in a pretty OK way (although I'd prefer it if it happened a season earlier). 

 

I do agree that I prefer a subtler build-up for Carrie/Quinn, though. Don't think your viewers are morons, show.

Edited October 17, 2014 by FurryFury

[Bcharmer]

I think the Carrie/Brody drama took over the show way too much. And Carrie made stupid decisions because of him. And now there's a baby.... and we had to see Carrie nearly contemplate drowning it. Thanks for that, show. So, I'm adding my voice to the choir who's expressing the opinion that another romance like that is just not needed in a show like this. I wouldn't feel slighted in the least bit if Carrie & Quinn didn't turn out to be the one true pairing. Romance isn't a lesser emotion, or one that needs to be avoided, but for some shows, I just don't feel that it's a necessary element to the drama.  I came to Homeland for the CIA/spycraft... making such a big deal out of the relationship between Carrie and Brody nearly drove me away.  Let Carrie hook up with some other agent... fine.  Let Quinn hook up with whoever he wants. But throwing Carrie and Quinn together is a direction that would likely drive me away for good... because it will affect how they work together.  When everyone was saying how Quinn was obviously in love with Carrie last season, I thought his looking out for her could have just as easily been interpreted as platonic, one agent caring for, and looking out for, the other... backing each other up. I didn't see anything in his actions that proved he was in love with her. I am hoping this is all leading to nothing... as it would be very refreshing to have them simply be great working partners, agents who can focus on the task at hand, depending on each other, and respecting each other, even if they butt heads (that's what makes it dynamic), but with no romantic interest in each other. 

[scrb]

Some are making pointed comparisons to The Honorable Woman, which supposedly doesn't try to wedge in a romance in the middle of a spy story.

 

We know Brody was suppose to die in S1 originally but stayed on the show for 3 seasons, possibly due to network interference.

 

So to go back to the well again would mean this creative team is out of ideas about spies and terrorism, more interested in providing some exotic backdrop for a soap opera.

[shapeshifter]

Sarah, for me the real shift on this topic was when Quinn realized that Carrie and Saul had preplanned the entire hospitalization/Crazy Carrie angle last season, just to draw in Javadi. That first scene Quinn had with her, when they let him in on it, he was blatantly adoring and practically had big hearts jumping out of his eyes at what she'd been willing to risk...

I think much of Quinn's love for Carrie is a kind of professional admiration at how good she is when she needs to be...

I think he also feels sorry for her. Pity can be a powerful motivator, especially considering the circumstances.

I think he sees himself in her. They seem to be emphasizing that more this season by showing him going off the rails. So in terms of the dynamics of the relationship, this really is Brody & Cary 2.0, but at least they're on the same team.

About Dar Adal's accusations of Quinn being compromised during Sandy's killing due to his concern for Carrie: I got the impression that Dar thought Carrie and Quinn should have gotten out of the car and started shooting--but that would have been an even bigger international incident with all three of them dead. Maybe that outcome would have served Dar Adal's personal agenda. IDK. Or maybe he just thought Quinn could have pulled Sandy back in the car if he hadn't looked at Carrie? But, didn't he look at Carrie when she was saying they needed to get out of the car? That was after the crowd already had Sandy completely out of the car and surrounded. Maybe Dar was just being a dick by screwing with Quinn's head. Or maybe he wanted Quinn to go back and look at the footage and find the guy on the phone but for some political spy reason couldn't outright tell him. I really don't know.

[FictionIsntReal]

Some are making pointed comparisons to The Honorable Woman, which supposedly doesn't try to wedge in a romance in the middle of a spy story.

The Honourable Woman was fantastic, but I'm not sure it's a good comparison. The protagonist does not work for an intelligence agency. Also, it's a miniseries. A better point of comparison is "The Americans", which has been far better than Homeland every season in which they both aired.

 

But as long as we're talking about other shows, Meredith Stiehm left to help create the first season of the American version of The Bridge. Apparently she disagreed with co-creator Elwood Reed on how closely to follow the Scandinavian original with regard to the serial killer angle. She went back to Homeland after, and the second season of the Bridge really came into its own by focusing on the U.S-Mexican border rather than a supervillain. Hardly anybody watched it and it will likely be canceled, but it started getting comparisons to the Wire (yeah, it's not THAT good, that's like another plane of television) in the scope of its ambitions. Homeland's best season was able to rely on the original Israeli series, and it has faltered afterward. On the other hand, that's sufficiently different in that it's supposed to focus on the POWs themselves rather than anyone analogous to Carrie.

 

But for people willing to go back in time a few years to another Homeland adjacent show, I recommend the one-season-wonder Rubicon. The late Henry Bromell (who wrote the Q&A episode from Homeland's season 2) was brought in as showrunner when the original creater was removed after the pilot, and it's not a completely smooth transition, but there's some very good slow-burning stuff. There's one episode largely focused on all the characters taking polygraph tests in order to uncover the source of a leak. In another they spend the entire episode debating whether to order an airstrike based on incomplete information (contrast how long that takes in Homeland's season 4 premiere). The late Christopher Evan Welch, who was the best part of Silicon Valley in the small number of episodes before his death, manages to humanize a rather dislikable character over the course of the season. On the other hand, there are plotlines that don't go anywhere, with Bromell seeming not to know what to do with some of what he inherited. And as indicated, it's much more slow-moving than Homeland. But those wanting a contrasting spy story should check it out.

Edited October 19, 2014 by FictionIsntReal

[Bcharmer]

But for people willing to go back in time a few years to another Homeland adjacent show, I recommend the one-season-wonder Rubicon. 

 

 

I second that. Still mourning the cancellation of that show.  AMC needed to give it another chance, and give time for more viewers to catch on.  But instead, we got The Walking Dead and Hell on Wheels, neither were able to hold my interest past their first seasons.  Rubicon was fantastic, and I didn't mind the slow pace, at all.  I bought the DVD, and will rewatch it some day in the near future.

[FictionIsntReal]

I second that. Still mourning the cancellation of that show.  AMC needed to give it another chance, and give time for more viewers to catch on.  But instead, we got The Walking Dead and Hell on Wheels, neither were able to hold my interest past their first seasons.  Rubicon was fantastic, and I didn't mind the slow pace, at all.  I bought the DVD, and will rewatch it some day in the near future.

Folks at IMDB seem to believe there is still no DVD:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1389371/board/thread/212168732

[Kel Varnsen]

Does anyone know why Quinn's discovery of the man coordinating the attack of Sandy when watching the YouTube video "changes everything"?

What I don't get is, the CIA has analysts right? Am I supposed to believe that drunken Quinn was the first person to watch the youtube videos in slow motion and look for things going on in the background?

 

Also speaking of the video, shouldn't Carrie's cover be blown thanks to it? I mean people won't know who she is, but surely the videos caught a picture of her, sitting in the back seat of a car with the CIA station chief for Pakistan. To me that would make it a hell of a lot harder to pretend she is Carrie whatever, international news reporter.

 

Lastly I really hope we get some kind of follow up as to what is going on in Iran. I mean is the guy the CIA blackmailed actually providing them with any good intel?

[Hava]

What I don't get is, the CIA has analysts right? Am I supposed to believe that drunken Quinn was the first person to watch the youtube videos in slow motion and look for things going on in the background?

 

Heh. That reminds me of the first season when Carrie discovered Abu Nazir's motivation (or something like that) by making a timeline of Abu Nazir's whereabouts--something that apparently no one else at the CIA but "genius" Carrie Mathison came up with. This is why this show is ridiculous (but still somewhat entertaining).

Edited October 28, 2014 by Hava

[John Potts]

A few nice bits of spycraft in this episode, but for me rather let down by the insistence that Quinn LURVES Carrie (maybe they should have had a couple more people mention it, it was rather subtle). It's something when James Bond's sex life is actually more believable (it fits that he'd be a "love 'em and leave 'em" kind of guy, since he could die at any moment), but would the CIA really be practically giggling at the two of them and going "Quinn and Carrie sitting in a tree..."? Sure, people would want somebody to blame for Sandy's death and the whole "Quinn didn't save him because he was too concerned with snogging Carrie!" story could get around (which would be totally unfair, but could easily happen) so that suddenly, it's all Quinn's fault ("Catch me, fuck me" as they say in government). Trouble is... it was done far less maturely than that.

 

Liked Saul's discussing what Carrie should do and how Carrie just beamed when he realised she'd already done it (it was such a "Daddy's Little Girl done good!" moment). Also liked Carrie showing she's a competent spy when she got away from her tail (although wouldn't handing over money mean she'd be followed by an even bigger crowd?). She was pretty good in coaching Fara too, even if that op was (apparently) a bust, though Carrie's interactions with Aayan practically screamed "I'm a spy!" (seriously, the only way she could have been less subtle was if she was wearing Johnny Depp's "CIA" T-shirt from Once Upon a Time in Mexico!)

 

Less believable was Carrie's predecessor acting like such a jerk. Sure, he's pissed at having a prestigious posting snatched from him at the last moment, but he's a spy. Surely concealing your true feelings should be second nature to him, so you'd think he'd be better at it!

 

paramitch I did like Quinn's final scene with the hotel manager, and was pleased that they parted with relative warmth toward each other.

 

I liked that too - and I would sure love to see her versus Dar Adal, though I suspect this is the last we'll see of her.

 

allthatglitters "They" could be the Pakistani intelligence and Haggani was a thorn they couldn't take care of themselves for the political backlash.

 

Still convinced he's not dead, but we'll see.

[stillshimpy]

What I don't get is, the CIA has analysts right? Am I supposed to believe that drunken Quinn was the first person to watch the youtube videos in slow motion and look for things going on in the background?

 

Pretty sure that's the thing:  No, we aren't supposed to believe that Quinn -- sodden Quinn -- is the only person who has done this and knows that Sandy was, if not an inside job, then almost certainly was killed with the tacit agreement of some governmental agency within the U.S.   Carrie's source in the library (whose name I can't recall but he was Walter White's chemistry partner back in the day before Walt broke bad) essentially reported Sandy to the powers that be for trading government secrets. 

 

Sandy eludes his security detail too easily.  I love the actor who played him, he has the ability to make you care even when he's doing something sort of repugnant (he worked that aspect too on House of Cards) , but he stood out a damned mile on the streets of Islamabad.  There's no way he was actually getting away from trained security officers, in a highly volatile area of the world, charged with protecting him, by ducking through an area with dishwashers.  

 

So I think that's the deal, there had to be some coordination in killing Sandy, after he had, presumably served his purpose of nailing Aayan's relative and some U.S. agency, in conjunction with some Pakistani agency shut him down, hard and permanently.  

 

You know, this freaking show.  They are good at sort of subtly hinting a great deal, but when it comes to personal relationships and failings, they have NO faith in their audience.  None.  Possibly less than none.  Yes, it's always been hinted at that Quinn felt something for Carrie.  That maybe it was that he identified with Brody on a level that allowed him to feel that in slightly different circumstances, Carrie would have loved someone like Quinn.  Brody having been the discarded killing tool of a heartless military machine and Quinn being the active killing machine who knew that he worked for a heartless military machine and lost his own love and family to that (remember Quinn's baby and ex girlfriend?) .   So I thought the feelings for Carrie involved sort of an alternate universe view into what it might be like to be loved even if someone knew what and he (Quinn) was and went on from there. 

So I got all that before they went all 2x4 to my head with Quinn's feelings.  Same deal with long ago getting that Carrie wasn't mommy material (and I am mommy material, so I'm not saying "mommy" dismissively) before they had her contemplate a bit of infanticide as a problem solver.  Also, I might have picked up that disappointed Not-Station Chief was a jackass without the "Young lady" bullshit.  Or Carrie practically giving Aayan a handjob in a loo by needlessly sticking her hand in his pocket (how dumb is this poor lad supposed to be?).  

 

Furthermore I think I also would have gotten that Eden, Quinn's trysting partner, was not a viable long-term love interest without the show feeling the need to provide quite so many big, neon signs about it.  Not only is she a woman of size, she is a woman of such substantial size that there's no doubt that I'm supposed to note that as being part of her characterization.  If by some chance I missed that, they had people insulting her in public mentioning her weight.  I mean, freaking really show, I might have managed to piece it all together without the "Quinn's killing time with someone who could never be more than a fuck buddy, you get that, right?" clues that were banner-sized. 

 

Then the return to the more nuanced approach ends up feeling baffling when it is in the same scene.  Dar Adal goes to Quinn's apartment and very easily activates his "You are a highly trained assassin.  You think you'll ever be the guy who just hangs out and goes to breakfast, bonding over hash browns with a civilian?  Look how easy it was to get you to snap.  You will never blend in that world.  I knew you weren't that far gone from being a killing machine.  You're never more than six inches from it.  Come home, Quinn.  We're the only home you're fit for....and also, I'm rather obviously prodding you to dive back in on that Sandy business...."  

 

Quinn said he wanted out, Dar Adal demonstrated that out was sucked into a black hole and also, Carrie probably needs him, so pluck some heartstrings to get the trained dog back in the kennel  

 

But whereas I get that Quinn has feelings for Carrie that are far more complicated and twisted up with both who he is now and who he never got to be, do they have to make it quite so ....middle school?  

Edited November 3, 2014 by stillshimpy

[jeansheridan]

I love Quinn but yeah a bit too much angst. I like bad ass Quinn. But the show has been consistent showing his growing discomfort in killing. I think when he went after his boss, that killer spark is what he was looking for. Depressed Quinn is useless. Angry Quinn has potential.

I do wonder who Quinn really works for. He isn't Saul' s man. He seems to have Carrie's back but he didn't follow her to Kabul. Did someone want him in Pakistan? Isn't he more of a field agent than an office guy shredding papers? Are we getting another long con? The ambassador certainly likes/notices him.

Edited November 19, 2014 by jeansheridan

[paramitch]

I find this insistence on romance to be a weakness of this show.  I guess they figured the Carrie/Brody relationship was such a big deal, that now they must include more romance? 

 

Stick to being a good spy show instead of contrived romance, please show!

 

I didn't mind the Carrie/Brody romance and eventually found it fascinating. And I'm not normally a romance reader/watcher (although I totally admit to the occasional shipping). Which was why I loved the two of them together. It felt like chaos, total unpredictable WTF-chaos. One conversation in a parking lot and I shipped Carrie/Brody. But when she confronted him with the truth on "The Weekend" -- then arrested him despite her own feelings (and don't even get me started on Q&A)? These are genuinely interesting and fascinating intersections to me. I understand why these people are lonely, violent, contained yet treasured; this show makes me continue to want to examine the prices they pay.

What I don't get is, the CIA has analysts right? Am I supposed to believe that drunken Quinn was the first person to watch the youtube videos in slow motion and look for things going on in the background?

 

Also speaking of the video, shouldn't Carrie's cover be blown thanks to it? I mean people won't know who she is, but surely the videos caught a picture of her, sitting in the back seat of a car with the CIA station chief for Pakistan. To me that would make it a hell of a lot harder to pretend she is Carrie whatever, international news reporter.

To answer your question, yes, I think it's possible for a freelance CIA analyst to notice something in a YouTube video others had missed. Which is why I felt Carrie was pushing, to see if she could bring in more folks to help them examine details, allegiances, and more not apparent at first viewing. But in terms of identity, I've thought she handled herself safely (or did before Aayan).

 

Heh. That reminds me of the first season when Carrie discovered Abu Nazir's motivation (or something like that) by making a timeline of Abu Nazir's whereabouts--something that apparently no one else at the CIA but "genius" Carrie Mathison came up with. This is why this show is ridiculous (but still somewhat entertaining)

 

I don't think this was ridiculous at all. The CIA more than any other organization works on logic, puzzles, leaps of faith and connectivity. What Carrie created was a lean and intuitive way to understand all the allegiances currently in play.

[Pallas]

Quote

It felt like chaos, total unpredictable WTF-chaos. One conversation in a parking lot and I shipped Carrie/Brody. But when she confronted him with the truth on "The Weekend" -- then arrested him despite her own feelings (and don't even get me started on Q&A)? These are genuinely interesting and fascinating intersections to me. I understand why these people are lonely, violent, contained yet treasured; this show makes me continue to want to examine the prices they pay.

I love this, paramitch. I had no more intention of investing in Carrie + Brody than the showrunners did. But the showrunners took what happened in the course of making their show -- what got detonated between those two characters as portrayed by those two actors -- and saw that it was part of their story. Which is, in the largest sense, a love story. What we do for what we love. And, as you say, the prices we are willing to pay.

The show has never really stated what moved Carrie, or Saul, or Quinn, to offer themselves on the altar of such a morally ambiguous enterprise as the CIA. It probably comes down to what Brody exclaimed in his confessional tape: "I love my country." I think we're meant to see that the irony of that statement, made by a man wearing a Marine sergeant's uniform over a suicide vest, was an extreme version of what moves the protagonists.  

Carrie saw it, or felt it. To stand him down in season 1, she used love to counter love: his love of his own child against his love of Nazir's, and his shame at loving the country that killed the child. And to stand him up in seasons 2 and 3, she used his trust in her conviction -- the heart of his love for her -- to guide him back to his own. She did the same with Saul this season, using Saul's love for the world as it might be as a counter to his rage at what the world has become.  

The show brings us stories about people who do what they do for love. Even if their actions seems much larger than the frail humans they hold dear, or just as morally ambiguous as the nation in whose name they act. It seems to believe that the biggest difference between the protagonists and antagonists -- the most important difference -- is that the heroes can allow themselves to be brought back from  despair. That the heroes are willing and able to do so much for what they love, but not anything. Because thou shalt not take the name of love in vain.  

[paramitch]

I love this, paramitch.  I had no more intention of investing in Carrie + Brody than the showrunners did.  But the showrunners took what happened in the course of making their show -- what got detonated between those two characters as portrayed by those two actors -- and saw that it was part of their story.  Which is, in the largest sense, a love story.  What we do for what we love.  And, as you say, the prices we are willing to pay.

 

The show has never really stated what moved Carrie, or Saul, or Quinn, to offer themselves on the altar of such a morally ambiguous enterprise as the CIA.  It probably comes down to what Brody exclaimed in his confessional tape: "I love my country."  I think we're meant to see that the irony of that statement, made by a man wearing a Marine sergeant's uniform over a suicide vest, was an extreme version of what moves the protagonists.  

 

Carrie saw it, or felt it.  To stand him down in season 1, she used love to counter love: his love of his own child against his love of Nazir's, and his shame at loving the country that killed the child.  And to stand him up in seasons 2 and 3, she used his trust in her conviction -- the heart of his love for her -- to guide him back to his own.  She did the same with Saul this season, using Saul's love for the world as it might be as a counter to his rage at what the world has become.  

 

The show brings us stories about people who do what they do for love. Even if their actions seems much larger than the frail humans they hold dear, or just as morally ambiguous as the nation in whose name they act.  It seems to believe that the biggest difference between the protagonists and antagonists -- the most important difference -- is that the heroes can allow themselves to be brought back from  despair.  That the heroes are willing and able to do so much for what they love, but not anything.  Because thou shalt not take the name of love in vain.  

 

Pallas, that was a really beautiful and eloquent post.

 

What you describe here is exactly what keeps me riveted to "Homeland" and I suspect what divides its viewers -- the subtext of love that runs through everything these characters do and how it causes them to both act and not to act. Love for country, love for family, romantic love, love for a way of life, a set of values, etc. For me, the little moments around this exploration are always, therefore, the most moving to me. And yet the show plays them out with this balancing act of realistic drama combined with an almost operatic intensity, and for me it works.

 

And to bring it back to this episode, Quinn's wordless feelings for Carrie, whether romantic or friendship (I'm not always sure, but there's this almost visible admiration in him for her), really move me precisely because of the way Friend plays it, it's all contained, it's all just set aside in a box for Quinn to deal with later. But to me it informs almost every scene he has with Carrie, and I love that -- Carrie is so oblivious to his devotion whereas you just see him on edge and watching for every little thing.

 

The power dynamic between them kind of reminds me of this element of Jack London's "The Sea Wolf," in which Humphrey, the main character, finally has to tell his love interest Maud to stop using a certain phrase ("Please, please") because he feels himself powerless against it. Quinn is so vulnerable to Carrie, but Carrie's just this force of nature as always, completely missing all those little tells and just barreling on through with whatever she needs to -- and yet she is also paradoxically on some level aware that she simply has to ask, and he'll do what she needs.

[Pallas]

And to bring it back to this episode, Quinn's wordless feelings for Carrie, whether romantic or friendship (I'm not always sure, but there's this almost visible admiration in him for her), really move me precisely because of the way Friend plays it, it's all contained, it's all just set aside in a box for Quinn to deal with later. But to me it informs almost every scene he has with Carrie, and I love that -- Carrie is so oblivious to his devotion whereas you just see him on edge and watching for every little thing.

The power dynamic between them kind of reminds me of this element of Jack London's "The Sea Wolf," in which Humphrey, the main character, finally has to tell his love interest Maud to stop using a certain phrase ("Please, please") because he feels himself powerless against it. Quinn is so vulnerable to Carrie, but Carrie's just this force of nature as always, completely missing all those little tells and just barreling on through with whatever she needs to -- and yet she is also paradoxically on some level aware that she simply has to ask, and he'll do what she needs.

 

What a great take on what's going on with Carrie and Quinn.  And how Friend portrays it.  Carrie's effect on Quinn seems to me very similar to her effect on Brody -- and on Saul, as well.  Mandy Patinkin summed it up this way: "She's the boss."  Not because of any title bestowed on her but because of the authority that her conviction grants her.  Each man knows that she is literally crazy, and yet.  There is a purity to her.  A purity to her sense of purpose.  

 

Carrie doubts her conclusions or at least, how she got there, but what she doesn't doubt is that if she is right -- her alpha and omega -- then she is right to act.  If she is right, what she does will be right.  I can't recall her (until very recently) ever second-guessing any of her actions, only what she sees and thinks.  That's a freedom Carrie seems to take for granted, one that Quinn is deeply aware he does not enjoy, himself.  More and more Quinn isn't sure why he does anything. Carrie seems free of that crisis of conscience, either because she never forgets why she does what she does, or at other times, because she doesn't care -- that is, doesn't care that she is acting from one interest rather than another.  

 

In that way, despite all her own upheaval, Carrie provides Quinn a security, almost a serenity, or at least a solace.  She's the boss.  She's the rider, he the horse.  She can't harness her own nerves but she can harness his.  

[Pagali]

It's an outfit worn in that part of the world. Kameez refers to a type of trousers, and a shalway is a type of shirt. The guy with the earpiece, who was apparently coordinating Sandy's murder, was wearing both.

 

Good answer, and you're right -- except that you have it turned around. The Shalwar (salwar in India) are the loose baggy trousers. The Kameez is the long loose shirt. (Think of the similarity of the word to the English 'camisole')

 

Speaking of words... it almost drove me crazy that the closed captions kept saying things like "Speaking in Arabic..." when they were in Pakistan, not an Arab country, and were speaking Urdu, which is very close to Hindi. As for the Pakistani students speaking a mix of Urdu and English... that's the way most educated people in Pakistan and India talk. Often they mix it up within the same sentence. I don't know for sure about Pakistan, but the official national languages of India are Hindi and English!

Edited December 11, 2014 by Pagali

[Roseanna]

On ‎14‎.‎10‎.‎2014 at 2:26 PM, penelope79 said:

I don't think the Quinn/Carrie possible ship is out of the blue. I remember that, at TWoP, ever since Quinn made his first appearance and started to interact with Carrie, basically everybody predicted at least a one night stand (clearly not much more, because we couldn't imagine Brody dying back then, nor we had any idea that Quinn was about to become a recurring character first and then the male co-protagonist). Besides, as much as I love Damien Lewis, I was glad Brody died for several reasons, included that I always thought his relationship with Carrie was sick to say the least, while those subtle hints to Quinn made me think about him as a more viable option in the long run, and I warmed up to the idea of the two of them together.

That said, I was too caught off guard by all those remarks about him having feelings for Carrie, since so far writers have been quite subtle.

Then I thought that, maybe, the CIA is trying to find an explanation to Quinn's behaviour in certain, critical situations (that others, above, have already pointed out), and that the most logic one is that he may have feelings for her.

I don't think that whatever happens between them will be rushed: at the moment, they have a lot on their plate. But I'm pretty sure that something will happen this season, just because I can't see the writers avoiding it for such a long time now that Quinn comes back to be with Carrie side by side and they made clear even for casual viewers that he's basically Carrie's next love interest.

 

On ‎14‎.‎10‎.‎2014 at 4:13 PM, Milburn Stone said:

For sure we the viewers have known about Quinn's feelings for Carrie for some time (as evidenced by key decisions he's made, which have been pointed out, as you say). The CIA is just catching up. But I buy the new lack of subtlety. I think the events in Islamabad, and the crisis Quinn is going through as a result of them, are all the rationale needed for his feelings to reach the boiling point. 

As for whether we'll see Carrie reciprocate, I don't know. I can see a tragic scenario in which Quinn's feelings for Carrie overwhelm him--his feelings for Carrie are going to be one of the major arcs of this season, that much seems sure--but Carrie remains immune and/or oblivious. Perhaps until it's too late. But now I'm letting my imagination run away with me...

 

On ‎14‎.‎10‎.‎2014 at 7:59 PM, paramitch said:

In terms of where I'm invested emotionally this season, it is totally and 100% with Quinn. I don't worry about Carrie -- her fragility works in different ways (and also tends to be her superpower). With Quinn, the look on his face at the end here, after he'd agreed to return to help Carrie -- I found it heartbreaking. I really hope this doesn't destroy him (I truly thought Dar Adal was a goner for a moment).

- - -

I'm in total agreement. I wrote a bit about this last week, but I have always felt that Quinn was a refraction in a different way of the Carrie/Brody angle, in that just as Carrie fell for Brody through the intimacy of surveillance and observation, so do I feel that Quinn fell for Carrie, pretty spectacularly and quickly, early in Season 2 and for similar reasons (adding in of course his genuine admiration for her bravery). I like that it has almost all been subtext with him, but I feel like it's been there all along, from his visits to her in the hospital last season, right through to their final conversation about her pregnancy last year.

So this year, the progression makes sense to me. However, I've liked the fact that Quinn didn't progress to a romance with Carrie (and even seems to have fought those feelings in himself). I think Carrie's amazing in many ways, but her arrogance and edge and total blindness to others all mean that she's a human steamroller and that she has the capacity to totally destroy Quinn. I really think Quinn is very much aware of that in ways that Brody was not, so I'm crossing my fingers here that Quinn's story isn't tragic. I mean, we've seen that he was falling to pieces away from the job -- I'm kind of hoping that maybe when he's back in, that he is able to rally and even overcome his demons.

 

On ‎14‎.‎10‎.‎2014 at 9:31 PM, eleanorofaquitaine said:

I think that this is true, though to be fair, I don't think Brody's incredibly screwed up psyche or life was ever really Carrie's responsibility.  Both Carrie and Brody were spectacularly damaged people that recognized the damage in each other.  But Brody ended up with his life in shambles and dead ultimately because of Brody, not because of Carrie, in my view.

Interestingly enough, I actually do think that Quinn is a better match for Carrie in that he is unlikely to ever hurt her in the way that Brody hurt Carrie. (Which isn't to say I am a fan of the idea of them together).  At the end of the day, I am not sure how much Brody ever really cared about Carrie.  Maybe he couldn't, because of all that happened to him, but he certainly very rarely had her well-being in mind.  Quinn, for all that he too is damaged, actually seems to care about Carrie well-being. That being said, I agree with you that Quinn and Carrie is not a particularly good match for Quinn.  But he's in it, on some level.

These are all interesting analysis, although I am never been for the romance between Carrie and Quinn.

There was an erotic tension between Carrie and Brody since they talked in the parking lot after Carrie "accidently" met him at the vet meeting. I think it was a brilliantly written and played scene: they spoke about other things, but their facial expressions and gestures told quite another story. It was a subtle way to flirt. After they had had sex in the car, their relationship developed along the lines where love is proved by letting emotions and hormones overcame all reason although Carrie still tried to find out whether Brody was a terrorist.

Instead, there never has been any element of flirting between Carrie and Quinn. His love for her has been evident almost from the beginning, but it has been shown by his actions. Just as EleanorofAcquitane said, he has constantly cared for her well-being. And he had never asked asked anything for return.