S04.E02: Trylon And Perisphere

[alexvillage]

 

 

But she didn't drown the baby.  Furthermore, as has been pointed out, there have been a number of women who have struggled with post-partum depression who have done some horrifying things. But they have a mental illness, they literally aren't in their right mind when they are doing it.  We know that Carrie has bipolar disorder - why would we think that she wouldn't struggle with something like post-partum depression?

Obviously Carrie contemplated doing a horrible thing but IMO it isn't something we're meant to cheer on (obviously).  IMO, we're meant to recognize that a). Carrie is not mentally well, even when she is medicated and b). Carrie herself recognizes that she's not equipped to take care of the baby.  I know why her sister is upset with her but Carrie spelled out all of the reasons last year why she shouldn't have the child and her sister flatly ignored them.  I mean, I am not saying that justifies Carrie's lapse there; I am saying that we can't be surprised that Carrie recognizes that her lack of mental well-being leaves her ill-equipped to be a good parent. It takes some courage on the writers' part to show that

Yes, to all of it

The show is putting its foot a little deeper into the mental illness thing. I think the scene was very well played, Carrie is on the verge of a post partum-psychosis and the thing is, she recognizes it. She knows she cannot be near the baby or chances are something terrible is going to happen. I like the way it was played because I did 't get a sense she was an evil person who hates the girl, she is way too complicated and she doesn't seem to follow her meds regimen, so she cannot be trusted with anyone else but herself.

The car seat in the wrong place of the car: that, to me, was just a convenient way of shooting the scene, where she can easily pick up the baby while in front of Brody's house, not to show that Carrie has no motherly instincts

[Sofie Fatale]

I personally don't want to see Quinn in ANY relationship. I like conflicted, silent but deadly Quinn who goes on missions and calls Carrie on her bullshit

[Milburn Stone]

The tragic fate of Carrie is that she has a mental illness (much more all-encompassing than postpartum depression) that presents her with an impossible choice: medicate, and in so doing deaden the part of herself that is sensitive to the suffering of others; or go without medication, and suffer horribly herself. There is no third choice for her. 

[terrymct]

I found Carrie really hard to take in these two episodes/parts and have been thinking about why that is.   In previous seasons, she was unbalanced and at times pathologically self centered, but she was pushed over the edge when trying to do the right thing (as she saw it).   This season, she's unbalanced and (most of the time) pathologically self centered but seemed to be so before the stress arrived.   I didn't care why she's unable to bond with her daughter, I just thought she was horrible for what she was doing (from avoiding the child to almost drowning her).   I didn't want to understand why she reacted to Sandy's murder in such a different way than Quinn, I just thought she was horrible.

 

Carrie is seriously damaged emotionally and has no interest in being anything but that.  In the next few episodes, the writers need to give me a reason to care about her or her path through these events. 

Edited October 7, 2014 by terrymct

[dsteele]

That was one seriously ugly kid. Although the visual throwbacks to Lewis were awesome.

And continuing the shallowness, kudos to the producers for not going ->there<- with the usual trope of Quinn waking up in the morning and being disgusted at having slept with someone who doesn't fit into a size 1.

[Mozelle]

Regarding the the title of this episode, my take is that it's meant to allude to the idea of the perfect world of the future. Specifically, according to what's on Wikipedia, "the sphere housed a diorama called 'Democracity' which, in keeping with the [New York World's Fair]'s theme 'The World of Tomorrow,' depicted a utopian city-of-the-future." There's nothing utopic about the world Carrie, Quinn, Saul, et. al. inhabit. Additionally, the structure was a symbol for "the global aspirations of democracy..." (Hofstra). 

 

As the ambassador told Quinn in episode one, there were only seven names on the CIA kill list after 9/11 and now there are 2,000. The implication seems to be that we keep hoping that this "War on Terror" or this "War on Evil" is going to just make all the bad in the world go away. Instead, it only broadens the definition of "evil" so that there are now, literally, thousands of suspects. We're in the thick of things because democracy is what we say we're attempting to export but at what costs? 

 

Carrie, with the help of intel from Sandy, dropped a bomb on a wedding, and while they got their high value target, innocents were killed in the process. I think there's something to be said for the ambassador, Quinn, and the Lieutenant in episode one being the people bothered by what happened whereas Carrie and Lockhart aren't. Lockhart is, of course, more concerned about his own ass and the PR fallout from it than he is concerned about anything else. 

Edited October 7, 2014 by Mozelle

[HollaMcDollar]

I found Carrie really hard to take in these two episodes/parts and have been thinking about why that is.   In previous seasons, she was unbalanced and at times pathologically self centered at time, but she was pushed over the edge when trying to do the right thing (as she saw it).   This season, she's unbalanced and (most of the time) pathologically self centered but seemed to be so before the stress arrived.   I didn't care why she's unable to bond with her daughter, I just thought she was horrible for what she was doing (from avoiding the child to almost drowning her).   I didn't want to understand why she reacted to Sandy's murder in such a different way than Quinn, I just thought she was horrible.

 

Carrie is seriously damaged emotionally and has no interest in being anything but that.  In the next few episodes, the writers need to give me a reason to care about her or her path through these events.

Good post. Back in season one the viewer could get behind Carrie b/c they knew she was right about Brody being a bad guy and that made it easy to forgive her behavior, etc. For the past two seasons they haven't given us a reason (or a good enough reason) to forgive Carrie's flaws and because of that she is probably the most unlikable character on TV. It would be such a simple thing to fix but all the interviews w/ Gansa et al., have shown that they just refuse to see the error of their ways.

[Mozelle]

For the past two seasons they haven't given us a reason (or a good enough reason) to forgive Carrie's flaws and because of that she is probably the most unlikable character on TV.

 

 

Oh, I beg to differ. Hannah Horvath on Girls is absolutely unlikeable, such that I actually stopped watching Girls after season one because Hannah (and her cohorts) were just without any redeeming qualities. That said, maybe my memory is failing when it comes to Carrie, but hasn't she essentially been right the past three seasons? She's very unorthodox, of course, about how she goes about it--and, by George, is she stubborn--but I have a feeling that once she comes into contact with Aayan, she'll re-evaluate her approach to the wedding bombing.

[Milburn Stone]

For the past two seasons they haven't given us a reason (or a good enough reason) to forgive Carrie's flaws and because of that she is probably the most unlikable character on TV. It would be such a simple thing to fix but all the interviews w/ Gansa et al., have shown that they just refuse to see the error of their ways.

 

They haven't fixed it because it's not an error. It's the intention. Carrie (certainly the Carrie who exists so far in Season 4) is not meant to be likable. She's meant to be an uncomfortable embodiment of all that's troubling about U.S. policy and the tacit endorsement of this policy by most of America.

[Neurochick]

I was glad that the show didn't make Baby Brody "cure" Carrie and instead explored her messed-up feelings about the whole situation.  Too often on TV we see people who don't want to have children suddenly have a complete personality change when the baby is born, and in reality, that doesn't always happen.  Carrie has bipolar disorder, drinks more than she should (in light of that disorder), is not always consistent with her meds, has seriously screwed up feelings about the baby's father, is selfish and self-centered, and works in a ridiculously stressful field.  It is not at all surprising that her feelings toward the baby would be confused and not 100% healthy, especially considering she didn't want the baby to begin with.  Apathy, disinterest, and avoidance are not totally unexpected reactions.  And I thought the show explored some of that really well, although that bathtub scene was tough to watch.

 

I think I love Quinn?  Didn't see that coming.

 

I agree with this.  Mental illness or no, there are some people who just don't want to have children at all.  It's not true that all women are maternal, that we'll see a baby and immediately want to get pregnant pronto, that a baby will cure all ills.  Carrie doesn't want her daughter, she just doesn't feel anything for her, no connection, except for Brody, and there's nothing wrong with that at all.  Carrie's just not maternal, case closed.  I don't know why Maggie, last season, told Carrie that the baby would "ground her," such bullshit.  I don't get why Maggie is all upset, her sister doesn't want to be a mother, and I don't know why Maggie didn't realize that.

 

I like Quinn and the building manager; I've seen that woman before, I'm sure of it, I think she's a model maybe?

[FurryFury]

For the past two seasons they haven't given us a reason (or a good enough reason) to forgive Carrie's flaws and because of that she is probably the most unlikable character on TV. It would be such a simple thing to fix but all the interviews w/ Gansa et al., have shown that they just refuse to see the error of their ways.

 

I find plenty of TV character much more unlikable than Carrie. Of course, I know firsthand how much a mental disorder can fuck you up (I'm not bipolar, but I have acute social anxiety and chronic depression), so I relate to her a lot because of that. Plus, I tend to give less flack to female anti-heroes compared to males.

 

But there are many male protagonists no better than Carrie, but people still find it in themselves to cheer up for them. I find it baffling. At least, she is still, in essence, heroic. She thinks her work saves people's lives (whether it does or not is a matter for another debate, one I expect the show to emphasize later in the season). It's already more than what can be said about characters like Don Draper, Walter White, Tony Soprano, some CW vampires (heh) or the hero of stuff like The Strain (a guy I wanted to murder with my own hands after 20 minutes of the pilot). She has her flaws, but I recon she, at least, has some justification.

Edited October 7, 2014 by FurryFury

[Cosmocrush]

Is sizism a word? (As I size-ism. Auto-correct doesn't think so). Why does everyone say they hope the building manager can be around for Quinn, as a friend? How about, you know, as more than a friend? Cuz I think that would be cool. Totally unrealistic in TV land, but still cool. And nice for Quinn.

I know why I said I hope she would be a friend and it has nothing to do with their size differences.  I want the tension between him and Carrie even if it's a drawn out dance between them.  He already cares about her - hell he basically sacrificed Sandy to save Carrie and don't forget he didn't kill Brody when he had the chance.

 

 

That said, maybe my memory is failing when it comes to Carrie, but hasn't she essentially been right the past three seasons? She's very unorthodox, of course, about how she goes about it--and, by George, is she stubborn--but I have a feeling that once she comes into contact with Aayan, she'll re-evaluate her approach to the wedding bombing.

Exactly.  Her instincts are  essentially right.   And the same things that made her a good station chief/CIA agent are the the same things that might make her a terrible mother; focused, ruthless, etc.  I'm pretty sure she said that same thing to Quinn at the end of S3 but everyone said she was wrong and now her sister is seeing that.  It reminded me of when she was sure Brody was a terrorist agent/suicide bomber and no one would believe her.  

[FurryFury]

I know why I said I hope she would be a friend and it has nothing to do with their size differences.  I want the tension between him and Carrie even if it's a drawn out dance between them.  He already cares about her - hell he basically sacrificed Sandy to save Carrie and don't forget he didn't kill Brody when he had the chance.

 

This. The manager was nice, but it's fairly clear Carrie/Quinn is going to be a thing sooner or later. I already got the implication he cares for in that way in s3 - he's just not a doormat so he tries to call her out on her behavior and doesn't jump the instant she calls for him (and I like it). I don't want this nice lady to get hurt. Plus, I'm not sure he'd be that good for her, considering his issues. Quinn and Carrie, like Brodie and Carrie, would be dysfunction squared, and I find such relationships rather fascinating. Brody and Carrie lost me pretty soon, though - Brody being a full-blown terrorist and having a family baggage were pretty hard to stomach.

[HumblePi]

I followed Homeland the first and second seasons but only sporadically the 3rd. I had decided not to get into season four at all, but then my son mentioned that he had watched it and started to talk about "so and so doing this fat chick" and Carrie almost drowning her Brody-baby. I thought it sounded interesting enough to try to watch so I DVD'd the episode to watch. I have to say that I was not a fan of Brody's character at all. I got tired of his angst-ridden face, runny nose and mental issues. I also got to the point that I couldn't stand to see the expressions of anxiety, fear and hysteria on the face of Claire Danes one more time. Those expressions that crazy Carrie had, started to become a little joke around my house with each of us doing the 'Carrie in angst face' for laughs.

 

 

  Yeah, yeah, you all know what I'm talking about.

Anyway, I watched the episode 'The Drone Queen' and once again I think I might just hang around next week for more. It was fast moving yet I was able to follow what was going on quite easily. The baby in bathtub scene was well done since it didn't actually show the kid's face under the water gasping for air. (thanks Showtime). But on a different vein of thought regarding Carrie and her lack of attachment to her own baby, I don't think it has anything to do with her bipolar mental state or that it has anything to do with her drive and dedication to her career. I just think that Carrie is one of those women born without the 'need to nurture' gene. Not all women have it although we assume that nature gives it to all people of female gender, it's just not so. Carries sister just assumed (as most would) that she had that maternal gene automatically built in and that she'd never turn her back on her own baby. Carrie's original thoughts about putting the baby up for adoption is a horrifying thought to most women. But being logical, and knowing herself so well, it turns out that Carrie was absolutely right about adoption. If the sister can't accept this baby and raise her like one of her own, then she should be the responsible person now and move forward with the adoption idea. Get this baby into a home where everyone wants her and will do anything to raise her.

Edited October 7, 2014 by HumblePi

[izabella]

I want the tension between him and Carrie even if it's a drawn out dance between them.  He already cares about her - hell he basically sacrificed Sandy to save Carrie and don't forget he didn't kill Brody when he had the chance.

 

That's why he needs to never work with Carrie again.  His judgment is impaired.  The other people he works with shouldn't be collateral damage to his and Carrie's feelings for each other.  I don't know what he could have done for Sandy other than what he did, but if he's making decisions to sacrifice someone for Carrie, his judgment is impaired.

 

When do bi-polar symptoms start showing up?  Would anyone know if Baby Brody inherited the condition from Carrie as a baby, or does it only show up as an adult?

[scrb]

Did Carrie have some debate about whether to have the baby at the end of S3?  I don't recall it.  She didn't seem to deal with pregnancy well, because we remember all the pregnancy test kits she had, as if she kept retaking it because she didn't like the positive results.

 

Is she drawn to where the action is or running away from something?  She has this compulsive, overinflated sense of responsibility.  She missed 9/11 so she can't let it happen again.  Now where's the compulsion, just hunting down various terrorists on the hit list?

[Constantinople]

...That said, maybe my memory is failing when it comes to Carrie, but hasn't she essentially been right the past three seasons? She's very unorthodox, of course, about how she goes about it--and, by George, is she stubborn--but I have a feeling that once she comes into contact with Aayan, she'll re-evaluate her approach to the wedding bombing.

 

 

Exactly.  Her instincts are  essentially right.   And the same things that made her a good station chief/CIA agent are the the same things that might make her a terrible mother; focused, ruthless, etc.  I'm pretty sure she said that same thing to Quinn at the end of S3 but everyone said she was wrong and now her sister is seeing that.  It reminded me of when she was sure Brody was a terrorist agent/suicide bomber and no one would believe her.

 

Is Carrie right all that much?

Season 1: Carrie was right about Brody, but antagonized so many people that she ended-up in a mental hospital receiving electroshock therapy. As all good sales people know, a great idea isn't worth much if you can't sell it. Carrie's interactions with Dana led her to call Brody, which led to Brody not making a second attempt to blow-up the VP and everyone else in the bunker. But Brody still tried once, and only failed because there was a problem with the trigger, or the wiring or some other technical snafu.

Season 2: Carrie completely missed the plan to blow-up CIA HQ. So did everyone else, but if you're going to be as difficult to work with as Carrie, you need to bring a lot more value add to your job. Plus, I don't remember whether or not Carrie knew, or deduced, that Brody killed the Vice-President. If she didn't know, then she was wrong about Brody to some extent. If she knew, or deduced, then she's complicit in the assassination of the Vice President since she helped Brody flee the country.

Season 3: I didn't see Carrie as being "right" or "wrong" this season since I think of Season 3 as Saul's rogue operation to assassinate the head of the Iraq Revolutionary Guard and replace him with his deputy. I think this plan was insane and Saul was totally out of control, but the big idea of the season was Saul's (in contrast, the big idea of Season 1, Brody the traitor, was Carrie's).  And if Quinn hadn't shot Carrie, to stop her from preventing the murder of the Langley bomber, Carrie would have blown that plan because Brody's "innocence" was more important to her than peace between the US and Iran.

[roughing it]

I don't want Carrie and Quinn to get together AT ALL!!  I like the Apartment Manager and think she will be a grounding force for Quinn, because she's just a civilian.  I hope that he becomes drawn to her because of who she is and the comfort he so desperately needs, without her weight being an issue.  So refreshing for TV and movies in today's world.

[FurryFury]

Plus, I don't remember whether or not Carrie knew, or deduced, that Brody killed the Vice-President.

 

I think it was implied she knew, but didn't say anything because Brody did it to save her.

 

If she knew, or deduced, then she's complicit in the assassination of the Vice President since she helped Brody flee the country.

 

I don't think so. She did help him, but he was under duress when killing the VP. Plus, the VP was guilty of all kinds of stuff himself.

 

Also, Carrie did play a role in taking down Abu Nazir. This was a win for her, at least in-universe.

[sarajenn]

I loved the exploration of Carrie and Frannie, it was just enough to appease those of us who liked the baby storyline without becoming the Mommy and Me show.  (And to a previous poster, they didn't add the pregnancy b/c Claire Danes was pregnant, Claire and Carrie were not pregnant at the same time.) 

 

Also, I remember when Carrie told Brody she was pregnant she said something like "There will be a life, and I'm not sorry for that, not for one second."  So on some level she DID want the baby but yes, obviously she didn't think any further than wanting to still have a piece of Brody with her.  She avoiding dealing with having to actually raise the child.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

 

Season 2: Carrie completely missed the plan to blow-up CIA HQ. So did everyone else, but if you're going to be as difficult to work with as Carrie, you need to bring a lot more value add to your job. Plus, I don't remember whether or not Carrie knew, or deduced, that Brody killed the Vice-President. If she didn't know, then she was wrong about Brody to some extent. If she knew, or deduced, then she's complicit in the assassination of the Vice President since she helped Brody flee the country.

 

 

At the time of the assassination, she was being held by Abu Nazir - that was the threat that Nazir used to induce Brody to kill the VP.  I don't think she can be held culpable for an assassination that was unaware of and was unable to stop, in any case. And ultimately, she was responsible for getting Nazir.

 

We are given enough indications that Carrie's instincts are generally correct - even in this past episode, her instinct to hesitate the aerial strike was correct, even though she went ahead with it.  We are also shown that the personality traits that allow her to function generally well in her job also make her a difficult human being to love or care about.

[eyetotelescope]

Is sizism a word? (As I size-ism. Auto-correct doesn't think so). Why does everyone say they hope the building manager can be around for Quinn, as a friend? How about, you know, as more than a friend? Cuz I think that would be cool. Totally unrealistic in TV land, but still cool. And nice for Quinn.

 

I didn't say anything about hoping that she'll be a friend to Quinn, but I personally didn't see any romantic chemistry between them, and it has nothing to do with size.

[LotusFlower]

I know why I said I hope she would be a friend and it has nothing to do with their size differences.  I want the tension between him and Carrie even if it's a drawn out dance between them. 

I would argue Quinn and Carrie have tension, and would have tension between them, regardless of either one being in a relationship with someone else.

[Enero]

I don't want Carrie and Quinn to get together AT ALL!!  I like the Apartment Manager and think she will be a grounding force for Quinn, because she's just a civilian.  I hope that he becomes drawn to her because of who she is and the comfort he so desperately needs, without her weight being an issue.  So refreshing for TV and movies in today's world.

 

Though I betting nothing much will come of Quinn and the Apartment Manager, I liked their encounter mainly because it was so different from the typical Hollywood drunken one night stand. The Apartment Manager wasn't what Hollywood would deem as "hot," and Quinn didn't seem to have any regrets the morning after. In fact he took her out to breakfast! Such a stand up guy. Love him.

 

I must admit I'm one of the few that realized I actually missed Brody last season. Yes, I thought he'd run past his expiration date like everyone else, but when we got him back for the last few episodes I realized how much I missed him (or maybe it was the actor I missed) and was a little sad when he died. I wasn't sure how Homeland would recover after spending three seasons centered around him. Well I think they recovered nicely. Both episodes were a very strong start to the season.

 

I wish Carrie would just give up the ghosts, literally (like others I think the casting director did a fantastic job with Baby Brody) and give the baby up for adoption. Unfortunately, I think TPTB are going to keep her in the Mathison family to have another level of angst and conflict for Carrie.

 

Did anyone ever figure out what was up with Arayan and the drugs? Why did he take them to his friend's house to hide? Why did he have them in the first place?

 

Another wish I have is that they'd just put us and Saul's wife out of her misery and have her leave him for good. I really can't understand why she's with him. Is it out of pity? Familiarity? Obligation? Because I don't think she loves him anymore. And Saul loves her so much that he'll take her anyway he can get her, even if she is scowling her way through the marriage. Like others, I really don't want to go through another season with her complaining about him never being home.

 

Bradley James finally got a job after Merlin! He did well with the American accent. The way the camera panned up to him, for a second keeping his identity mysterious, I wonder if he'll come into play later in the season? That was kind of dramatic reveal for someone whose just going to be seen one time.

 

Glad the show is moving back to the Middle East. I was fearful for a minute when Carrie was told she was being returned to the US for good. The scenes there were descent. However, I feel the story in the Middle East was most intriguing and where this season's potential lay.

Edited October 8, 2014 by Enero

[Constantinople]

I don't think so. She did help him, but he was under duress when killing the VP.

Brody wanted to kill the VP after a drone killed Issa. And for someone acting under duress, Brody was pretty damned happy when the VP died.

 

Plus, the VP was guilty of all kinds of stuff himself.

The Queen of Drones is guilty of the same kinds of stuff.

 

At the time of the assassination, she was being held by Abu Nazir - that was the threat that Nazir used to induce Brody to kill the VP.  I don't think she can be held culpable for an assassination that was unaware of and was unable to stop, in any case.

People can be, and have been, convicted of being an accomplice after the fact.

 

Also, Carrie did play a role in taking down Abu Nazir. This was a win for her, at least in-universe.

And ultimately, she was responsible for getting Nazir.

Carrie didn't take down or get Nazir, nor was it a win, since Carrie "getting" Nazir was part of Nazir's plan:

1. Kill the VP - partly for revenge, and partly to set-up the Langley bombing

2. Get himself killed - If Nazir is taken alive, he might spill the beans. But mostly, if he's dead, everyone will let their guard down

3. Blow-up Langley during the VP's memorial service

Everything went exactly according to Nazir's plan. Carrie did nothing to thwart it.

 

We are given enough indications that Carrie's instincts are generally correct - even in this past episode, her instinct to hesitate the aerial strike was correct, even though she went ahead with it.

I don't think that makes Carrie particularly insightful. I think many people would hesitate to blow the shit out of some place based on anonymous source with no corroborating information. They source may have been reliable, but perhaps the source is using the US government to take out the source's frenemies.

And Carrie's reaction is that that we'll go get the bad guys, the implication being that next time they'll bomb better. She seems to be unwilling to accept that idea that if you assassinate people via bomb and drone, inevitably you'll murder some innocents. Quinn seems to acknowledge that reality, which is why he's not going back to Islamabad (at least not yet).

 

We are also shown that the personality traits that allow her to function generally well in her job also make her a difficult human being to love or care about.

Once again, I question just how well she functions in her job. Sometimes she's "right" about people, but given how many people she's suspected of something, she's bound to be right some of the time.

Perhaps, grading on a curve, Carrie is a better agent than most of her colleagues at the CIA, but perhaps that also says more about the CIA than it does about Carrie.

[Neurochick]

Did anyone ever figure out what was up with Arayan and the drugs? Why did he take them to his friend's house to hide? Why did he have them in the first place?

 

 

Were the drugs his or did they belong to his roommate?  When the men burst into Arayan's room and roughed him up, wasn't his roommate there too?

Edited October 8, 2014 by Neurochick

[Milburn Stone]

The Queen of Drones is guilty of the same kinds of stuff [as the VP Brody killed].

 

This truly is a chilling (and very intentional) irony. When Brody killed the VP, the audience partly/mostly sympathized with Brody. We understood (because we saw the human tragedy from Brody's point of view) the cost of indiscriminate droning, we knew the VP was an asshole, and we cheered (tacitly) when Brody did the deed. Carrie, because of her emotional alliance with Brody, implicitly empathized not with his wish to commit terror but with the emotional imperatives that drove him. Yet now, Carrie has become what she and Brody hated most.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

People can be, and have been, convicted of being an accomplice after the fact.

 

 

She was being held hostage at the time of the VP's death.  I defy you to name one prosecutor who thinks that they could possibly win a case in which a hostage - a member of the CIA - being held captive by a world-famous terrorist would be convicted of being an "accomplice after the fact" for a plot that she was not a party to devising and could have done nothing to stop.  I mean, sure, some zealous prosecutor could have tried to do this, though of course, most people were completely unaware that the VP was assassinated.  But it seems extremely unlikely they'd have some chance of winning this case.

 

Carrie can be held accountable for a lot of bad decisions - this isn't one of them.

 

Carrie didn't take down or get Nazir, nor was it a win, since Carrie "getting" Nazir was part of Nazir's plan:

 

1. Kill the VP - partly for revenge, and partly to set-up the Langley bombing

2. Get himself killed - If Nazir is taken alive, he might spill the beans. But mostly, if he's dead, everyone will let their guard down

3. Blow-up Langley during the VP's memorial service

 

Everything went exactly according to Nazir's plan. Carrie did nothing to thwart it.

 

 

Wasn't the Langley bombing an Iranian plot? Isn't that what all of last season was about?  

[jrlr]

On a completely different note, what the hell was Corey Stoll (Sandy) doing in a bit part in the first episode?  Obviously Carrie is going to make her season's mission to find out who Sandy's contacts were and who - if anyone - Sandy was feeding information to.  But really, after a brilliant multi-episode stint on House of Cards and the other work he's done, Corey Stoll seems like a VERY unlikely actor to put in such a dinky role (well, aside from the pulled-from-the-car-and-beaten-to-death).  Okay, back to babies, mental illness and not wanting to parent her child.  Carrie simply does not have any maternal instinct and when she's feeling pressured into being a mom, she crumbles under the weight of it and nearly kills the Brody-ette baby.  The best thing in the world for that poor kid would be to put her up for adoption IMMEDIATELY.  

[Inquisitionist]

On a completely different note, what the hell was Corey Stoll (Sandy) doing in a bit part in the first episode?

 

To suck in those of us who thought he'd be a recurring character?  I'm so disappointed.

[ethalfrida]

Please bear with me because this is a thought that has become like an ear worm...

Carrie can really take a punch!

Now, I'm through and hopefully it will stop running through my head!

[Catronia]

I like the theories expounded by ihatefacebook and Mozelle about the title, especially the idea that the World's Fair structures concerned the globalization of democracy.  At least rhetorically, that's part of what got the US into this mess in the first place -- the concept that we have a mission to spread democracy by force if necessary.

 

Another way to look at the Trylon and Perisphere is as a physical structure:  It's basically a womb and a phallic symbol, and our characters are torn between the two.  Carrie's choosing (or feels compelled) to be the phallic symbol rather than the womb, while Quinn is rejecting the phallic and returning to the womb by drinking himself numb and connecting with a larger woman (historically depicted as fertility symbols, Earth goddesses, and matriarchs) who is warm and understanding.  Saul torn between his wife (also a larger woman by TV standards) and his old job. 

 

Even Carrie's manner in these episodes is phallic as in penetrative, aggressive and remorselessly single-minded.  In the past, she was always hideously arrogant and self-centered, but vacillated among different motivations.  Now it seems like she's just a bullet from a gun.  I'm very interested to see where she goes this season; I don't actually like her (and I think she would have been fired forever ago IRL), but I find her fascinating to watch.

[Milburn Stone]

Another way to look at the Trylon and Perisphere is as a physical structure:  It's basically a womb and a phallic symbol, and our characters are torn between the two.  Carrie's choosing (or feels compelled) to be the phallic symbol rather than the womb, while Quinn is rejecting the phallic and returning to the womb by drinking himself numb and connecting with a larger woman (historically depicted as fertility symbols, Earth goddesses, and matriarchs) who is warm and understanding.

 

I like this.

 

As for Corey Stoll, two possibilities:

 

1. We will see him again, if future episodes use flashbacks to show us his dealings.

 

2. We won't see him again, and the creators deliberately cast an actor of his stature for the same reason Hitchcock cast Janet Leigh in Psycho: The audience never expects an actor of stature to get it in the first reel, so the shock is greater.

 

I love Corey Stoll, but I'm OK with either decision.

[StatMom]

I have when they make character more clueless than they need to be, I understand Carrie lacks maternal instincts but she does not know she is supposed to put the child seat in the back? Please!

 

 

The car seat in the wrong place of the car: that, to me, was just a convenient way of shooting the scene, where she can easily pick up the baby while in front of Brody's house, not to show that Carrie has no motherly instincts

Not only was the car seat in the front seat, but it was just resting there and not secured to the seat at all. That seemed to me to be another signal of Carrie's detachment from her motherly duties (not that we needed any more anvils).

[Loandbehold]

 

People can be, and have been, convicted of being an accomplice after the fact.

 

    

 

She was being held hostage at the time of the VP's death.  I defy you to name one prosecutor who thinks that they could possibly win a case in which a hostage - a member of the CIA - being held captive by a world-famous terrorist would be convicted of being an "accomplice after the fact" for a plot that she was not a party to devising and could have done nothing to stop.  I mean, sure, some zealous prosecutor could have tried to do this, though of course, most people were completely unaware that the VP was assassinated.  But it seems extremely unlikely they'd have some chance of winning this case.

Carrie's circumstances while Brody was assassinating the VP are not at issue. Afterwards, she knows that he killed the VP. Killing another person is a crime and she had a duty to report it. She didn't and so she could be prosecuted as an accomplice after the fact. Now, let's say it was discovered that the VP was killed and Brody was arrested because somebody noticed that he was the last person to see the VP alive. He gets charged with murder, and somehow, it's discovered that Carrie knew and didn't report it, so she gets charged with being an accomplice after the fact. Brody's defense is that he acted under duress, which would be an affirmative defense. He wouldn't be arguing that murdering the VP wasn't a crime, just that he should not be held responsible for his actions. Let's say he gets aquitted. Carrie could still be prosecuted and convicted for being an accomplice after the fact because she failed to report that she knew of a crime and who committed it. Likely scenario? Absolutely not. But is it possible? I'd say that it is.

 

 

Though I betting nothing much will come of Quinn and the Apartment Manager, I liked their encounter mainly because it was so different from the typical Hollywood drunken one night stand. The Apartment Manager wasn't what Hollywood would deem as "hot," and Quinn didn't seem to have any regrets the morning after. In fact he took her out to breakfast! Such a stand up guy. Love him.

I'm going to take an opposite viewpoint for the sake of argument, and this is due to how well Rupert Friend acted in those scenes. He gets drunk and sleeps with the apartment manager. The next morning, when he walks out of the shower, she begins to tell him that she's not expecting anything from else from him. Is he feeling remorse? Guilt? Possibly, so rather than let her finish, he asks her to breakfast. While there, he's pretty distant. He doesn't want to talk about himself. Now, he has very good reasons for not doing so, but she doesn't know that. So, instead of opening up, he asks her about herself. I'm not sure how attentive he's being since he hears the guys at the next table make their disgusting remarks . He goes over to the table, asks them what they said and then basically tells them to shut up. He is suffering from PTSD so when they continue, he knows he can beat them up and does so. As a result, he didn't have to hear anymore from the apartment manager. When he gets home that night, he sees the note. He doesn't smile when he reads it. The entire time very few emotions show on his face. It's a great acting job that can be looked at in different ways. I believe that the sentiments expressed above are what Quinn actually is feeling, but I don't think it's impossible to believe that he's too emotionally numb to actually want a relationship with the apartment manager. Which would be more in line with the Hollywood one-night stand remorse.

[Noreaster]

The NY Times recap reflects my thoughts on the Quinn/apartment manager storyline exactly:

 

The convention requires romantic detours. But Quinn’s first stateside sexual encounter — a drunken tryst seemingly fueled more by despair than desire — is profoundly weird, and more than a little disturbing. One minute, our black-ops tough guy is on a lounge chair, so drunk he can do nothing but slither helplessly, and the next, he’s underneath a lady twice his size, with a really creepy smile on his face that could, frankly, be a rictus of pure fear. Beyond the politics of using a fat woman as a virtue-enhancer (or a sight gag), what was the scene supposed to convey?

 

I could be completely off-base but I thought we were supposed to become suspicious of Aayan.  On the surface, he seems innocent enough.  But with his extreme desire to remain invisible to the world and the medicine hidden in his closet, maybe the long game for him is to plant himself as a sleeper cell and eventually harm someone with the medicine.  

[Pallas]

Trylon and Perisphere were also demolished within two years of their triumphant construction (in what had been a wasteland). The  materials are said to have been re-used to construct World War II armaments.  

[Bcharmer]

 

Another way to look at the Trylon and Perisphere is as a physical structure:  It's basically a womb and a phallic symbol, and our characters are torn between the two.

There was a spherical shaped building in one of the scenes, as well as a phallic shaped building/tower thing. Wish I knew how to do screen captures, but maybe someone else can.  Pretty subtle, if that was all there was to it.

[izabella]

The apartment manager sex wouldn't have been the focus of that storyline if she hadn't been a fat woman.  Replace her with a size 2 woman, and we wouldn't be talking about her at all; she'd be just a nameless hook-up (which she was) and we'd be focused on Quinn's PTSD and how he could have killed those guys and how close he came to putting them in the hospital, etc.  But she's a fat woman with a hot guy, so the focus turns to that instead.  Perhaps that was the intention of the writers...get more buzz and impact.

Edited October 8, 2014 by izabella

[Inquisitionist]

It just dawned on me that the trylon and the perisphere are mentioned in Aimee Mann's song, Fifty Years After the Fair:

 

Fifty years after the fair
The picture I have is so clear
Underneath the clouds in the air
Rose the trylon and the perisphere

Edited October 8, 2014 by Inquisitionist

[Neurochick]

The apartment manager sex wouldn't have been the focus of that storyline if she hadn't been a fat woman.  Replace her with a size 2 woman, and we wouldn't be talking about her at all; she'd be just a nameless hook-up (which she was) and we'd be focused on Quinn's PTSD and how he could have killed those guys and how close he came to putting them in the hospital, etc.  But she's a fat woman with a hot guy, so the focus turns to that instead.  Perhaps that was the intention of the writers...get more buzz and impact.

 

This is so true.  Had she been size 2 or size 0 no one would give the scene a second look.  But because Hollywood has an attitude about who is and who isn't fuckable and the hotel manager falls on the "unfuckable" side based on Hollywood standards, the hook up is talked about and discussed and dissected.  That bothers me because the implication is that if an attractive white male hooks up with a woman who isn't like him in looks and or size, there's something strange and "exotic" about the hook up.  I thought Quinn hooked up with her for three reasons, she was a woman, she was there and she was willing.

[Enero]

 

I could be completely off-base but I thought we were supposed to become suspicious of Aayan.  On the surface, he seems innocent enough.  But with his extreme desire to remain invisible to the world and the medicine hidden in his closet, maybe the long game for him is to plant himself as a sleeper cell and eventually harm someone with the medicine.  

 

I don't think you're off base at all. I personally think something is off about Aayan. I'm assuming he was jumped in his apartment by terrorist who were seriously pissed that the video, which no only shows Aayan, but other individuals in this terrorist network.

 

This is probably way off, but Sandy was so secretive about what he was doing, is it possible that Aayan could've been his CI? Aayan seemed awfully calm (and level headed) for someone who'd just lost his whole family due to a bombing by the US. Perhaps that was because there was more guilt than anger at play with his feelings.  

 

 

 

That bothers me because the implication is that if an attractive white male hooks up with a woman who isn't like him in looks and or size, there's something strange and "exotic" about the hook up.  I thought Quinn hooked up with her for three reasons, she was a woman, she was there and she was willing.I thought Quinn hooked up with her for three reasons, she was a woman, she was there and she was willing.

 

I didn't think it was strange or exotic at all, but more true to real life. Most guys that I know whose had a hookup ended up with someone more like the Apartment Manager than the 'beautiful' bombshells Hollywood normally throws out for a quick lay. It was kind of refreshing to not see the Hollywood fantasy. With that said, why Quinn did what he did was not lost on me. It is obvious that he has serious issues he needs to work through.

Edited October 8, 2014 by Enero

[Cosmocrush]

  I thought Quinn hooked up with her for three reasons, she was a woman, she was there and she was willing.

Maybe four since  Quinn was very, very, drunk.   He drank a liter of vodka or scotch or whatever it was he threw in the pool.  

[Constantinople]

The apartment manager sex wouldn't have been the focus of that storyline if she hadn't been a fat woman.  Replace her with a size 2 woman, and we wouldn't be talking about her at all; she'd be just a nameless hook-up (which she was) and we'd be focused on Quinn's PTSD and how he could have killed those guys and how close he came to putting them in the hospital, etc.  But she's a fat woman with a hot guy, so the focus turns to that instead.  Perhaps that was the intention of the writers...get more buzz and impact.

I agree there wouldn't be any focus on the apartment manager if she were a size 2 (though some might have wondered if she were a secret agent). But if she were a size 2, Quinn wouldn't have beat the shit out of those guys since they wouldn't have made fun of her. The writers would have come up with another reason for Quinn to beat the crap out of them or some other strangers.

 

 

Wasn't the Langley bombing an Iranian plot? Isn't that what all of last season was about?

I thought Abu Nazir and Javadi, the No. 2 at the Iranian Revolutionary Guard, were co-conspirators; that Nazir was the operations guy; that the actual bomber was one of Nazir's men; and that Javadi financed it.  I thought some viewers and reviewers at the time thought the Sunni-Shia cooperation was odd.

 

But it's been a while so I could be completely wrong.

[HollaMcDollar]

This truly is a chilling (and very intentional) irony. When Brody killed the VP, the audience partly/mostly sympathized with Brody. We understood (because we saw the human tragedy from Brody's point of view) the cost of indiscriminate droning, we knew the VP was an asshole, and we cheered (tacitly) when Brody did the deed. Carrie, because of her emotional alliance with Brody, implicitly empathized not with his wish to commit terror but with the emotional imperatives that drove him. Yet now, Carrie has become what she and Brody hated most.

I have to disagree that the audience mostly sympathized w/ Brody when he killed the Vice President- the writers failed to make Walden into enough of a bad guy that his death at the hands of a terrorist would be excused. I know they tried but they did not succeed, and it is one reason (along with/ the whole star crossed lovers junk and more) that the show went downhill so fast.

[Pallas]

I don't think you're off base at all. I personally think something is off about Aayan. I'm assuming he was jumped in his apartment by terrorist who were seriously pissed that the video, which no only shows Aayan, but other individuals in this terrorist network.

This is probably way off, but Sandy was so secretive about what he was doing, is it possible that Aayan could've been his CI? Aayan seemed awfully calm (and level headed) for someone who'd just lost his whole family due to a bombing by the US. Perhaps that was because there was more guilt than anger at play with his feelings.

 

Aayan's video showed his family at a wedding; I believe his attackers were Pakistani state security.  And if Aayan had been Sandy's source, I think he would have sent the bride (1) candlesticks and (2) his regrets.   

[paramitch]

The baby bath was horrifying and heartbreaking but the more I think about it (and the more I read here) it was also a brilliant brave provacative piece of writing. What a way to illustrate your lead character.

 

What I liked about the scene, as scary as it was, was the way it showed Carrie first accidentally almost dipping the baby's head underwater, and her immediate fear and panic -- and then her second impulse, which was more calculated, but which also to me looked more like a fugue moment (and I was glad she stopped AND looked horrified at herself). I also think it was a vital "point of no return" moment for Carrie in which she said, "Yep. I can't and shouldn't be a parent."

In spite of that scary moment, and in spite of her consistent self-centeredness (which I kind of love because it makes the character so real to me), I feel for Carrie. In addition to battling her bipolar disorder, she appears to me to be experiencing some postpartum depression, PLUS her legitimate grief over Brody's loss plus the major life change of pregnancy and motherhood to a baby she absolutely did not want. PLUS the recent terrifying experience in Islamabad. All of which is to say -- it's the absolute worst time for her sister to sit down and say, "why aren't you helping more with the baby?" To Carrie, even while it's fair and logical for her sister to ask, I can totally see why this sounds absolutely crazy. And I'm kind of amazed at how together Carrie was able to be in spite of all this.

 

But she didn't drown the baby.  Furthermore, as has been pointed out, there have been a number of women who have struggled with post-partum depression who have done some horrifying things. But they have a mental illness, they literally aren't in their right mind when they are doing it.  We know that Carrie has bipolar disorder - why would we think that she wouldn't struggle with something like post-partum depression?

 

Obviously Carrie contemplated doing a horrible thing but IMO it isn't something we're meant to cheer on (obviously).  IMO, we're meant to recognize that a). Carrie is not mentally well, even when she is medicated and b). Carrie herself recognizes that she's not equipped to take care of the baby.  I know why her sister is upset with her but Carrie spelled out all of the reasons last year why she shouldn't have the child and her sister flatly ignored them.  I mean, I am not saying that justifies Carrie's lapse there; I am saying that we can't be surprised that Carrie recognizes that her lack of mental well-being leaves her ill-equipped to be a good parent. It takes some courage on the writers' part to show that.

 

I think this is a really good point -- there's plenty of audience reaction that "Carrie is a bad mom" here, when instead, I would argue that Carrie is being the lone voice of reason. She has said as plainly as possible, over and over again, that she cannot be a mother to Franny. It just seems like nobody is taking her quite seriously.

 

Besides that it's more than one word, I think it doesn't quite nail it. What's wrong with Carrie goes beyond postpartum depression. The quickness with which she was able to forgive herself for killing 40 innocent people speaks to an alarming capacity for denial.

 

But did we actually see her forgive herself? Or did we simply see her push the entire situation away as something too big to deal with? I absolutely think she cares that 40 people died because of an order that she gave. But she is (as we've seen) one of the best at what she does while also being able to massively compartmentalize when needed. I just figure she hasn't reacted more to it because that in itself is her reaction. Quinn dived right into the chaos and horror and sadness of it (which while hard to watch is actually healthier, I think), while Carrie is doing that thing she does, thinking she can set it aside. I do think we will see her deal with it emotionally at some point.

 

Yes! This! Whenever he's on screen all I see is terrible loneliness. Sure everyone needs him because he's great at what he does, but nobody cares that they're destroying a human being who is apparently not a horrible person but  a relatively sincere man. It's tough to watch IMO, so the show must be doing a good job. He's been keeping Carrie alive for a while now, but she doesn't "see" it. She doesn't "see" much; she's a disturbingly single focus character, which is why she can be so fascinating and irritating at the same time.

 

I'm not entirely convinced she's unaware of Quinn's stuggles, but honestly, what could she do to help him at the moment? Carrie is actively distancing herself from anything resembling a personal life, feelings, friendship, family, all of it. That said, how can she not reach out when he looks like he's in shock 50% of the time? I don't know, I do love their strange relationship, but it's tough to watch.

This was beautifully said. It's been tough to watch Quinn deal with the aftermath of everything he's witnessed (and done). The saddest thing for me is the way Quinn himself is now so finely honed that he is himself now a weapon that's constantly in danger of going off. 

 

When we first met Quinn, I thought his story would mirror Carrie's -- that he fell for Carrie while watching her, just as she fell for Brody while watching him. There's an intimacy to their surveillance work that is at direct odds with the sterility and depersonalization of so much of their lives. But instead the story seems to be exploring the ways in which Quinn can no longer lie to himself about the costs of what they do -- while Carrie is still very willing to do so if it allows her to keep functioning.

 

It's becoming increasingly more difficult for me to continue suspending disbelief that Carrie would be allowed to continue in her job.

 

I might have agreed in previous seasons, but this season, to me, is the most cool and competent we've seen Carrie be in the history of the show. She appears even and logical, superbly able to function, command her team and make decisions, and this episode even backed up that her reservations about the initial strike were absolutely warranted, and if they had listened to her, a tragedy would have been averted.

 

Is sizism a word? (As I size-ism. Auto-correct doesn't think so). Why does everyone say they hope the building manager can be around for Quinn, as a friend? How about, you know, as more than a friend? Cuz I think that would be cool. Totally unrealistic in TV land, but still cool. And nice for Quinn.

 

It's definitely a word, and I echo this wholeheartedly. I'll be interested to see if Quinn continues to connect with the hotel manager. Regardless, I liked the moment in the diner when she was blunt and empathetic that she's aware he's suffering through something, which is actually exactly what I think he needs right now, that warmth and a listening ear. I found watching two such utterly different people connect for a moment really fascinating and it also made the world of the show feel more real and believable to me. Perfect people do not always hook up with perfect people, after all.

[WaltersHair]

At the end, when Quinn read the note he looked just like this

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3310/3228041301_4120c90b23.jpg

 

Edited October 9, 2014 by WaltersHair

[ethalfrida]

At the end, when Quinn read the note he looked just like this

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3310/3228041301_4120c90b23.jpg

LMBO, that is so true. In fact, I rewound and watched that part again.

[Constantinople]

It's becoming increasingly more difficult for me to continue suspending disbelief that Carrie would be allowed to continue in her job.

 

I might have agreed in previous seasons, but this season, to me, is the most cool and competent we've seen Carrie be in the history of the show. She appears even and logical, superbly able to function, command her team and make decisions, and this episode even backed up that her reservations about the initial strike were absolutely warranted, and if they had listened to her, a tragedy would have been averted.

I don't see how a tragedy would have been avoided if they had listened to Carrie since they weren't the ones who made the decision to bomb the compound; Carrie was.

Carrie did a good job of blackmailing Lockhart into sending her back to Islamabad as chief spook (I hope she makes good on her promise to Jordan Harris to get him back in the field). Aside from that, I'm just not seeing it.

Her idea that she and Quinn needed to lie about what happened to Sandy because "they could have done more" -- or Quinn could have done more, I forget which -- was bizarre, particularly since she never suggested any specific action they could have taken. It was just mindless criticism (but hey, perhaps that's why she's a manager). Equally bizarre was her assertion, after finding out that she'd blown up a wedding party, that they were "bullet proof" on this.

Carrie did eventually acknowledge that they weren't bullet proof when she told Lockhart that the mess in Islamabad wasn't going away. Lockhart responded "You think?". That was rather dickish, but it did underscore the inanity of Carrie's comment.

In any case, I'm glad Carrie is going back to Islamabad to do intelligence work, and isn't stuck in DC with Bradyspan in tow while serving as the CIA's Assistant Deputy Directory of Paper Clips and Congressional Testilying.