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S04.E02: Trylon And Perisphere


Tara Ariano
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On a completely different note, what the hell was Corey Stoll (Sandy) doing in a bit part in the first episode?  Obviously Carrie is going to make her season's mission to find out who Sandy's contacts were and who - if anyone - Sandy was feeding information to.  But really, after a brilliant multi-episode stint on House of Cards and the other work he's done, Corey Stoll seems like a VERY unlikely actor to put in such a dinky role (well, aside from the pulled-from-the-car-and-beaten-to-death).

This is the new thing shows seem to be doing now. Jeff Fahey in Under The Dome. Clancy Brown on Sleepy Hollow. Let's get a known, big name actor for the Premier/pilot to pull in the viewers, THEN kill them off.

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I don't see how a tragedy would have been avoided if they had listened to Carrie since they weren't the ones who made the decision to bomb the compound; Carrie was.

Carrie did a good job of blackmailing Lockhart into sending her back to Islamabad as chief spook (I hope she makes good on her promise to Jordan Harris to get him back in the field). Aside from that, I'm just not seeing it.

Her idea that she and Quinn needed to lie about what happened to Sandy because "they could have done more" -- or Quinn could have done more, I forget which -- was bizarre, particularly since she never suggested any specific action they could have taken. It was just mindless criticism (but hey, perhaps that's why she's a manager). Equally bizarre was her assertion, after finding out that she'd blown up a wedding party, that they were "bullet proof" on this.

 

What I meant by competence was that she was calm, professional and (to me) visibly competent as we saw her overseeing her team in the pilot, in her discussion and analysis of the situations since with various other superiors, etc. And her reactions since, while occasionally obtuse (more on that in a minute) were not the "crazy Carrie" we have seen so often before. Whatever her issues, I would argue that her illness is not keeping her from doing a capable job at her post this season.

 

In terms of the initial bombing run, my impression of that entire scene was that she very much did NOT want to make that call and visibly argued against it. She even went so far as to question the Islamabad chief (Corey Stoll) directly on it, but only after exploring all the avenues and discussing the potential downsides, she went ahead with the strike even while (to me) it seemed very obvious that she didn't personally agree that it was the right strategy.

 

Meanwhile, however, I definitely agree that there are still little flashes of Carrie's reckless tone-deafness on display -- I especially agree that her perception of the Islamabad incident was strange and completely inaccurate (not to mention shockingly unfair, especially if she felt that somehow she or especially Quinn could have somehow done more -- both did absolutely everything they could there). But to me it was also textbook Carrie relying on that arrogance of hers that I think is both her superpower and fatal flaw -- I'm sure she really did feel she could have done more to save the guy, and that's the same Carrie who felt personally responsible for 9-11. For me, it's a consistent character note if also a maddening one.

 

And I especially liked that instead of Quinn gazing at her or remotely taking her words to heart, he instead reacted with the shock, grief, and WTF-ness that were far more appropriate as reactions. I like that while last season he seemed to have an almost romantic view of Carrie, this season he is definitely willing to call her out when she's being an ass.

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Not to beat this to death, but I think the Apartment Managrer's size was a very good directorial choice. While she was super nice and provided a safe connection for Quinn when he badly needed it, she also seemed to me to be sexually needy. I was concerned that she might be seen as having taken advantage of an extremely drunk Quinn.

I assumed that the guys who roughed up Aayam either were or were sent by the U.S.

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I thought the guys that went after Aayam were ISI agents (Pakistani Intel)....

As for the medicine- isn't it likely that those meds were for his uncle or another high ranking terrorist leader? They are sort of taking a page from the UBL story about him having diabetes...

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Quinn having PTSD, losing his cool and beating up some jerks is such a cliched storyline.  But I guess these writers were a little more imaginative. Let's make it about a fat girl!  

 

Gosh, can you imagine if the girl just happened to be fat, but the show never mentioned it?  That would be progress in Hollywood.  

 

But of course not.  Let's make the girl's size the issue.  Quinn is just perfect, isn't he?  He sleeps with a fat girl, asks her out to breakfast, and then defends her.  "No one ever fought for me before."  Are you kidding me?  Do these writers think this is a teen drama or a soap opera?

 

And maybe not so PC to say, but that girl's acting is just bad.  I really hope we don't see much more of that character.  

Edited by Noreaster
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I paused but I wasn't watching in HD so I couldn't make out the words clearly. There were at least two sets of brown glass bottles (plus some larger plastic containers). The one with the red label said A (something) injection and the one with the green label said (something) XT injection. I know that's not very helpful but hopefully someone with HD can shed some more light on this.

i'm pretty sure the bottles were anabolic steroids - after a bit of research, there is a real life product called Axiron which is a testosterone replacement product and the name Axiron is remarkably similar to A-Xeron which is stamped on these bottles.

 

Other clues backing this theory up, it's a 10ml bottle and states I.M use only - anabolic steroids are injected directly into the muscle and also appear to regularly come in 10ml multi-use bottles with a sealed rubber cap like this one.  I have no idea why he has them mind you, my only guess is that he's selling them himself or is being used as a mule if this is of course a correct observation!

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I could be completely off-base but I thought we were supposed to become suspicious of Aayan.  On the surface, he seems innocent enough.  But with his extreme desire to remain invisible to the world and the medicine hidden in his closet, maybe the long game for him is to plant himself as a sleeper cell and eventually harm someone with the medicine.

My theory is that he was a mule for his uncle, acquiring drugs & medicine through contacts made at college. Being a (peripheral) member of his uncle's organisation would explain his need to stay off the radar of any law enforcement or intelligence services, and even his cynical opinion on both sides in this war.
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I don't think I could NOT love Homeland no matter the storyline. Now, while I agree that Carrie is self-absorbed, she clearly knew she wouldn't be a good mother. And out of all the comments I've read, nobody mentioned or obviously remembered that Carrie is MENTALLY ILL. It's her downfall and it's also what makes her so fan-freakin-tastic! I will admit the baby in the bath had me covering my eyes and talking to the tv, but she clearly shouldn't be a parent. All hail Homeland!!

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...while I agree that Carrie is self-absorbed, she clearly knew she wouldn't be a good mother. And out of all the comments I've read, nobody mentioned or obviously remembered that Carrie is MENTALLY ILL....

I think both characters and viewers remember that she's ill. They showed her taking her meds. Where I think other characters and some viewers might not understand her is that she needs to be (IMO) self-centered in order to keep herself functional and in check. I need to work full time and have a pretty frail body; I have no qualms about repeatedly turning down invitations to socialize or requests to help others because I know my limitations. That's how I see Carrie's selfishness too. Probably most of the audience sees her differently.
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I agree with everyone that says Carrie never wanted to have this baby and was encourage by her family. However she is a grown ass woman that should be able and normally makes her own (bad at that) decisions.  On top of that, oh so your family pushed you to have the baby you did not want so you are just going to drown it? no, no, no, NO.

I am sort of the same way. I mean if you are responsible and grown up enough where you can order air strikes, you should be responsible enough to tell your family you are not having the baby or it is being put up for adoption. I get that she has a mental illness, but I also think that can only take you so far when it comes to excuses. 

 

As far as the air strikes go, how realistic would it be that a CIA station chief could order military air strikes? Seems kind of weird to me, I would think that kind or order would have to come from the US president, or at least a general or something.

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Yep... Carrie is a grown woman. If she did not want this baby or wanted to put it up for adoption then she should have done so. It is not her family's fault at all... they simply gave their perspective that's all. She could have ignored or dismissed their input as she has numerous times in the past. Since when does Carrie listen to anybody when she doesn't want to do something? Almost like never. SHE and she alone is responsible for how she is handling this situation. 

 

It is hugely unfair of her to lay this on her sister and I so agree with her sister calling her out on it. 

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I guess the role of anti-hero has come a long way in that we can see a woman almost killing her own child and still (mostly) see her as a heroine. I don't know when they learned of James Rebhorn's death, but I did wonder why they didn't have Maggie say "When dad died, I ended up bringing up YOUR kid by myself," (or similar) since it's not like it's completely unbelievable he might have passed away in the past year, nor that she might be pissed off because it was their dad that really wanted Carrie to have the kid whereas Maggie was much more cynical about it (believing - correctly - she'd end up doing the work). Who'd of thought that a mentally unstable, work obsessed person would turn out to be a bad parent to a kid she didn't want?

 

izabella It's becoming increasingly more difficult for me to continue suspending disbelief that Carrie would be allowed to continue in her job.

Well she has been sacked at least once in each season!

 

Constantinople It would be politically damaging to the CIA Director, enough that I can see him giving in to Carrie's threat, but I don't know that it would constitute treason

 

Pretty sure it is treason (though it would be unlikely to come to trial for various Security reasons), but I'm no expert in the US (or any other) legal definition of treason. It would certainly be politically damaging (and possibly fatal) if it came out. Loved the Carrie/Saul dialogue "The Director looked upset - well it is a funeral!"  Too bad Lockhart was so much better at "the game" than Saul is or we might have a competent CIA chief!

 

Mozella Carrie, with the help of intel from Sandy, dropped a bomb on a wedding, and while they got their high value target, innocents were killed in the process.

Wasn't the guy the CIA were after the one who menaced Aaryan at the end? I suspected after last episode that "the target" was still alive, which would make the operation a complete bust - not only was there massive "collateral damage" but they completely missed their actual target.

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I hadn't been watching this season at all, until bcharmer told me that it was finally the show we'd hoped it would be back in the first season.  A show about geopolitics and actions undertaken in the name of "good and right" and how that changes depending on the perspective from which it is viewed.   Essentially that there is no universal truth and absolute right in this.  

 

Carrie really has become akin to Walden in her acceptance of the need for collateral damage.  paramitch, I noticed you said that Carrie appeared to be very conflicted about bombing the wedding and I didn't see that in her at all.  What I saw was her kicking back in the officer's club, drinking beers and watching baseball when the kid who flew that mission came in to call her a monster, she seemed caught off-guard and far from racked by guilt or even misgivings.  It just seemed to be chocked up to the cost of doing business for her.  

 

Similarly, whereas I am beyond thrilled that the show decided to just end all questions about whether or not Carrie was really going to embrace her inner-maternal-streak, and furthermore I am beyond thrilled that Postpartum Depression is understood and accepted rather than the dark old days of it being dismissed as "baby blues" and something someone could just shake off if they chose, I don't think Carrie is suffering from PPD. That isn't just because I actually had PPD following the birth of my son more than twenty years ago, because everyone will have a different experience but there are some things common to clinical depression.    

 

PPD is not an intermittent or situation-based thing.  It is a clinical depression with a profound impact on a person's psyche.  Carrie would not be a  highly functional Queen of Drones at work, again, kicking back with beers and laughing along to the baseball game if she had PPD simply because her child was in the care of someone else.  PPD doesn't get left at any door like that.  To assign an absence of maternal bonding or every wrong action undertaken by a mother to a PPD is to really dismiss the impact of it as an illness.  It's not "I'm fine until I'm around my triggering baby!" it's a profound and clinical depression that isn't within someone's control.  In this case I think they were simply trying to depict something it is important to acknowledge: not every woman is meant to be a mother.  That by itself doesn't make that person broken, or ill, or suffering from anything at all, aside from the fact that Carrie has bipolar disorder. 

 

I don't know what led to Carrie's momentary desire to hurt her child -- and I'm not even sure that's the right way to put that -- I think what overcame her for a moment was the kind of callousness and "this will solve that problem" that allows anyone to look at a blown apart wedding party and think that being related to a terrorist somehow justifies a five-year-old's death.   The cold-blooded, "when all else fails to solve the problem, a little death ought to do it" vein that allows her to do her job.  

 

But I don't think it was postpartum depression.  I think she's emotionally detached from her child and what stopped her was the fact that Carrie actually does care enough about people in general -- even if she's bad at it -- to know that drowning a baby because she's inconvenient is the act of an actual monster and Carrie is a lot of things, but a true monster isn't one of them. 

 

The series really had some guts in depicting a woman who did not bond with her child.  Who doesn't want her child.  Who passively tried to abort  when Frannie was a fetus bydrinking...actually freaking taking up smoking while pregnant and putting herself in harms way, which all points to a subconscious desire to get that little problem to go away.  Then the series followed that to the next step, none of that worked, so when confronted with the child she still views as simply a problem within her life, she almost passively murdered the kid.  

 

It actually doesn't make me hate Carrie, because the series has not been shy about hinting that it was going to be that way with her behavior last year.  However, I do hope they aren't going to chicken out and try to assign it to PPD rather than the fact that having a functioning reproductive system doesn't make someone a ready or fit parent.

 

The only part that ticked me off was Carrie's sister, who is a wonderful and patient woman, saying "there isn't even a name for what's wrong with you" because that does play into dark age stereotypes that all women are ready mothers, or else they are broken and wrong in some specific way.  

 

Some are and it doesn't make us any better as human being, just better as parents.  I know I was halfway to the damned TV  with my hands out trying to grab that baby out of the tub.  That happened solely without my brain's active permission, just that hardwired part of me that is tuned to the maternal.  But all I think the show was trying to depict is that Carrie does not have that as part of her, or at least not a part of her she can access at will in a targeted and emotionally nurturing way.  

 

I don't think it's because she has bipolar disorder.  I don't think it's because she has postpartum depression.  I don't think it's because she has something terribly, terribly wrong with her (although the problem solving device she nearly employed was horrible and terribly wrong) , I think it's because despite being able to have a baby, Carrie isn't able to be a mother.  

 

Anyway, I'm back watching the show and it is specifically because they gutted up and didn't try to sell Carrie as a mommy.  I don't think I've ever been angrier at a show than when Carrie's sister told her it would be different after the baby was born.  That was an unconscionable thing for an actual physician to suggest.  The poor woman is truly paying for it, because it wasn't different.  Although I can't fault her sister too terribly much, because even though she clearly (and rightly) resents being made a mommy to Carrie's baby, she is actually stepping up and doing it.  

 

Also, I have to admit to being intrigued that the show actually pulled out the "you know we bombed a wedding, right?" thing because back in the first season, when Brody was so broken and everyone so horrified when the bombing of the school was revealed, we talked about the fact that the U.S. had already bombed a wedding in the early days of the war in Afghanistan.    

Edited by stillshimpy
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I don't think it's because she has bipolar disorder.  I don't think it's because she has postpartum depression.  I don't think it's because she has something terribly, terribly wrong with her (although the problem solving device she nearly employed was horrible and terribly wrong) , I think it's because despite being able to have a baby, Carrie isn't able to be a mother.

 

If all they were trying to do was show that Carrie isn't able to be a mother, I think trying to drown her baby is too extreme a way to do that.  Lots of people don't have that mothering instinct or desire, but they don't try to drown babies.  Neglect, I could see as not being cut out to be a mom.  But, to me, drowning goes too far and does imply either there is something terribly wrong with her, one way or another.

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But, to me, drowning goes too far and does imply either there is something terribly wrong with her, one way or another.

I absolutely agree that Carrie's action was terrible and wrong. That there is something terribly wrong. I just don't think it is evidence of a disorder, postpartum depression, or part and parcel of her bipolar disorder either. I think she views her child as a problem and she doesn't actually love Frannie. I think the distinction is important simply because there's no cure that can be employed, or medicine that can be administered that then makes her good mother material.

That's unlike any disorder, or treatable condition. Clearly there's something horribly wrong when anyone even contemplates what Carrie did, even for a moment and she did more than contemplate, she did back away from that action very swiftly and with regret.

My point is that whatever is going on with Carrie in relationship to Frannie, I truly do not believe it is fixable, treatable or a changeable thing. Whereas I was horrified by the scene and lunging towards the screen (and yup, I felt like a moron for doing it) I also was pretty impressed with the series for going that far to illustrate that Carrie really shouldn't be in charge of caring for her child.

And whereas postpartum depression can involve urges to hurt your child, it was not something I personally experienced when I had it. That's absolutely not definitive of anything other than my own personal experience with it, but I do not think the show is trying to convey that Carrie has postpartum depression.

For one thing, whereas I know several people who did have PPD and I did also, many women I know did not and it's also treatable. Carrie should be back on her med regime, so it's not a likely suspect.

Edited by stillshimpy
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And yeah, it's quite clear they're gonna fuck. Probably before the end of the season, even. I don't mind, I've been sorta shipping them since s2.

I get why you think this, but I'm kind of hoping they don't go that route.  And I think Quinn is the one who will NOT do it.  I think Carrie would mindlessly have sex with him, but he understands consequences. 

 

And I know he's a killer and has tortured people and seen any number of horrible things, but was there anything more adorable than an incoherent Quinn waving his arms around by the pool?  No wonder she jumped him!  Heh. 

 

He's so good at responding and thinking in a scene.  I think that's why he and Saul were great together too.  Two silent men, watching & careful.  Both of them worried about this unbalanced, sometimes brillant woman. 

 

And this is awful because the mob scene was terrifying, but damn Quinn is attractive when he's all super competent and saving their asses.  But I could also feel his fear, especially when it looked like Carrie would get pulled out too. 

 

Clearly I'm a Quinn fan.

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On ‎6‎.‎10‎.‎2014 at 8:58 AM, Brn2bwild said:

What pisses me off about the baby situation was that Carrie was pretty clear in last season's finale that she didn't want to keep the baby or be a mother.  Her father and sister were like: "OMG, it's totally worth it!  We'll totally help you and even raise the baby if you don't want it!"  Now fast forward, and Carrie has done what they wanted, have the baby, and now they (the sister at least) is resentful that they have to take care of it and Carrie isn't instantly maternal.

 

On ‎6‎.‎10‎.‎2014 at 10:36 AM, Espy said:

I thought the same Brn2bwild. Carrie was leaning towards adoption and her father and sister talked her out of it. Carrie knew she wouldn't be a good mother, was quite clear that she didn't want to raise the baby, and her father and sister offered to step in and convinced her to keep the baby. So I think it's a bit rich of the sister to lecture Carrie about responsibility. 

 

On ‎6‎.‎10‎.‎2014 at 11:36 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Not only did Carrie know that she wouldn't be a good mother, but she also knew that being a single parent with her job is not a good idea. But more than either of those things, she can't bear to look at her child and see Brody staring back at her because she feels so much guilt. When you put all of those things together, it's no wonder that she keeps leaving the country to avoid being near her daughter.

While I agree with her sister that if you bring a life into this world, you are responsible for that life, I would like to add that if you peer pressure someone into keeping a kid they don't want instead of giving it up for adoption by promising to help take care of said kid, then you don't have much of a leg to stand on when the mother takes every opportunity to avoid her kid.

 

On ‎6‎.‎10‎.‎2014 at 3:29 PM, paramitch said:

However, I'm with Brn2bwild and those who point out that Carrie did not want to be a mother, said that plainly, and I think her very well-meaning family truly just thought (like so many people when it comes to those who do not want kids), "Oh, you're so silly. You'll love her once she arrives." That's why I kind of loved it that while Carrie obviously felt deeply at being close to the baby -- she does feel love -- she just doesn't feel maternal, and you could just see every single bit of it was abhorrent to her. Some people are simply not meant to be parents.

 

On ‎6‎.‎10‎.‎2014 at 7:40 PM, Raachel2008 said:

There is a difference between being a bad mother and almost drowning your child on purpose. Carrie is one of the most self-absorbed selfish characters on TV ever, as repeatedly shown in previous seasons, and in these two episodes. Nothing is ever her fault, and somehow the fact she is brilliant at what she does is supposed to be an excuse for her horrible behaviour, including all her poor work related decisions - that is it, when bipolar disease is not used as an excuse, too.

 

On ‎6‎.‎10‎.‎2014 at 7:56 PM, PiggyRod said:

I agree with everyone that says Carrie never wanted to have this baby and was encourage by her family. However she is a grown ass woman that should be able and normally makes her own (bad at that) decisions.  On top of that, oh so your family pushed you to have the baby you did not want so you are just going to drown it? no, no, no, NO.

 

On ‎7‎.‎10‎.‎2014 at 3:04 AM, Constantinople said:

Carrie's sister Maggie never said she would raise the baby if Carrie didn't want it. Maggie said that she thought the baby would ground Carrie -- naive, I admit -- and that Carrie would be surprised how much love she would feel for the baby.

Carrie's father Frank offered to raise the baby if Carrie didn't want her. While no doubt sincere, Carrie should know that Frank wasn't in a position to raise the baby given that he suffered from the same mental disease as Carrie (and given Carrie's propensity for stealing his medication).

Maggie then said that Carrie didn't need to decide right then, and that Carrie could wait to decide after the baby was born.

In this episode, Maggie said that they agreed that Carrie would go to Istanbul, with Frannie, and that Maggie and her unseen husband would serve as emergency back-up (Maggie also said that it wasn't surprising that their father couldn't pitch in as much as he said he would).

Carrie's also a bad sister, but it's all of a piece with her professional life. Carrie is a child who doesn't give a shit what happens to other people so long as she gets what she wants. She can't even keep a commitment in the morning to show-up on time later that day. Then Carrie's surprised when the magic words "I'm sorry" don't make everything better.

 

On ‎7‎.‎10‎.‎2014 at 8:22 AM, Raachel2008 said:

 What is wrong with Carrie goes way beyond a (possible) postpartum depression or the ups and downs of bipolar disease; she doesn't do the things she does because she is bipolar or because she has a stressful job, she does the things she does because she is selfish and what she wants always comes first. Sometimes what she wants matches what is best for the agency or the country, but medicated or not, it is all about what Carrie wants. Season 3 was all about Carrie wanting to prove that Brody was not the big baddie who had blown up Langley, season 2 was about Carrie trying to protect Brody one way or another, season 1 was about Carrie pursuing Brody even when he didn't want her or she knew the best thing for him was rebuild the links with his family - the fact he could be or indeed was a terrorist was relevant only when it suited her interests. In order to justify her actions she rationalizes things, one way or another. That is who she is. Makes her a horrible human being, a lot of the time, and a very interesting TV character, some times.

As far as Frannie goes, Maggie never said she would raise the baby, that was their father's idea. Maggie was rightfully pissed because Carrie dropped Istambul for Afghanistan to get away from Frannie. Not matter how you look at that, this is a shitty thing to do. Frannie is there and ultimately it was Carrie's decision to give birth. Taking responsibility is another thing she has never done well, I don't see why that would be different with regards her child or the 40 people dead as "colateral damage". 

I also remember that it was Carrie's father who promised to take care of the child, but he is bipolar, so remembering her own childhood Carrie had no reason to trust in his ability to do so. Maggie only promised to help. Therefore I think that she was quite right to reprimand Carrie who was supposed to go to Istanbul but chose instead Kabul where she couldn't take Frannie.

After seeing Carrie with Frannie it was perhaps best she didn't take her. But then she should have made a decision to give the child to adoption.

I agree with Piggyroad: Carrie can't put the blame on her family for appealing and persuasing her as she otherwise is quite capable to make her own decision and not to follow orders even of her superiors.   

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On ‎6‎.‎10‎.‎2014 at 6:19 AM, Lila82 said:

1).  Quinn, to Carrie: "It's not about you."  Her dumbfounded expression deserves its own Emmy.  Truer words have never been spoken, and yet...Carrie literally cannot process what they mean.  Never change.

 

On ‎6‎.‎10‎.‎2014 at 2:01 PM, FurryFury said:

I think Quinn works well as an essential male lead. His relationship with Carrie contrasts nicely with Carrie/Brodie - they're both pretty fucked up as well, but Quinn at leasts calls Carrie out on her shit, which is refreshing (I love Carrie to bits, but boy she can be insufferable). And yeah, it's quite clear they're gonna fuck. Probably before the end of the season, even. I don't mind, I've been sorta shipping them since s2.

 

On ‎6‎.‎10‎.‎2014 at 2:26 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

What I like about Carrie and Quinn's relationship is that they don't idealize each other. I feel like she had this fantasy in her head about Brody and that she was more in love with who she thought he was than the actual Brody (I mean, yes, she knew he was a terrorist but she wanted to believe in the man inside who she believed could be good). She and Quinn do not have that issue with each other. They see each other clearly, lumps and all.

 

On ‎7‎.‎10‎.‎2014 at 8:07 AM, Cosmocrush said:

Carrie is grieving and not very well.  She is shutting herself off from feeling anything for anyone which I suppose helped make her The Drone Queen but kind of terrible for her family and her friends.  On the other hand, I see Quinn as desperately  needing to connect with someone to feel something, anything other than what he's feeling after what happened in Islamabad.   Thus the fight in the diner or the hookup with the building manager, and of course the excessive drinking.  I'm hoping these two can get to some sort of middle ground by the end of the season.

 

On ‎7‎.‎10‎.‎2014 at 8:22 AM, Raachel2008 said:

 What is wrong with Carrie goes way beyond a (possible) postpartum depression or the ups and downs of bipolar disease; she doesn't do the things she does because she is bipolar or because she has a stressful job, she does the things she does because she is selfish and what she wants always comes first. Sometimes what she wants matches what is best for the agency or the country, but medicated or not, it is all about what Carrie wants. Season 3 was all about Carrie wanting to prove that Brody was not the big baddie who had blown up Langley, season 2 was about Carrie trying to protect Brody one way or another, season 1 was about Carrie pursuing Brody even when he didn't want her or she knew the best thing for him was rebuild the links with his family - the fact he could be or indeed was a terrorist was relevant only when it suited her interests. In order to justify her actions she rationalizes things, one way or another. That is who she is. Makes her a horrible human being, a lot of the time, and a very interesting TV character, some times.

These are all good analysis.

Carrie loved Brody much more than her country, but Quinn loves Carrie much more than Carrie is ever capable to love anybody or anything.

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On ‎7‎.‎10‎.‎2014 at 8:41 PM, FurryFury said:

I find plenty of TV character much more unlikable than Carrie. Of course, I know firsthand how much a mental disorder can fuck you up (I'm not bipolar, but I have acute social anxiety and chronic depression), so I relate to her a lot because of that. Plus, I tend to give less flack to female anti-heroes compared to males.

But there are many male protagonists no better than Carrie, but people still find it in themselves to cheer up for them. I find it baffling. At least, she is still, in essence, heroic. She thinks her work saves people's lives (whether it does or not is a matter for another debate, one I expect the show to emphasize later in the season). It's already more than what can be said about characters like Don Draper, Walter White, Tony Soprano, some CW vampires (heh) or the hero of stuff like The Strain (a guy I wanted to murder with my own hands after 20 minutes of the pilot). She has her flaws, but I recon she, at least, has some justification.

I don't think that Carrie is heroic at all for to me, heroism isn't only act, it means also sacrifice. But when has Carrie sacrificed anything? Instead, she has sacrificed others. When she in S2 and S3 had to choose between her lover and her country, she always chose Brody.

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On ‎7‎.‎10‎.‎2014 at 6:50 PM, Mozelle said:

That said, maybe my memory is failing when it comes to Carrie, but hasn't she essentially been right the past three seasons? She's very unorthodox, of course, about how she goes about it--and, by George, is she stubborn--but I have a feeling that once she comes into contact with Aayan, she'll re-evaluate her approach to the wedding bombing.

 

On ‎7‎.‎10‎.‎2014 at 8:56 PM, Cosmocrush said:

Exactly.  Her instincts are  essentially right.   And the same things that made her a good station chief/CIA agent are the the same things that might make her a terrible mother; focused, ruthless, etc.  I'm pretty sure she said that same thing to Quinn at the end of S3 but everyone said she was wrong and now her sister is seeing that.  It reminded me of when she was sure Brody was a terrorist agent/suicide bomber and no one would believe her.  

 

On ‎7‎.‎10‎.‎2014 at 9:54 PM, Constantinople said:

Is Carrie right all that much?

Season 1: Carrie was right about Brody, but antagonized so many people that she ended-up in a mental hospital receiving electroshock therapy. As all good sales people know, a great idea isn't worth much if you can't sell it. Carrie's interactions with Dana led her to call Brody, which led to Brody not making a second attempt to blow-up the VP and everyone else in the bunker. But Brody still tried once, and only failed because there was a problem with the trigger, or the wiring or some other technical snafu.

Season 2: Carrie completely missed the plan to blow-up CIA HQ. So did everyone else, but if you're going to be as difficult to work with as Carrie, you need to bring a lot more value add to your job. Plus, I don't remember whether or not Carrie knew, or deduced, that Brody killed the Vice-President. If she didn't know, then she was wrong about Brody to some extent. If she knew, or deduced, then she's complicit in the assassination of the Vice President since she helped Brody flee the country.

Season 3: I didn't see Carrie as being "right" or "wrong" this season since I think of Season 3 as Saul's rogue operation to assassinate the head of the Iraq Revolutionary Guard and replace him with his deputy. I think this plan was insane and Saul was totally out of control, but the big idea of the season was Saul's (in contrast, the big idea of Season 1, Brody the traitor, was Carrie's).  And if Quinn hadn't shot Carrie, to stop her from preventing the murder of the Langley bomber, Carrie would have blown that plan because Brody's "innocence" was more important to her than peace between the US and Iran.

 

On ‎8‎.‎10‎.‎2014 at 3:51 AM, eleanorofaquitaine said:

At the time of the assassination, she was being held by Abu Nazir - that was the threat that Nazir used to induce Brody to kill the VP.  I don't think she can be held culpable for an assassination that was unaware of and was unable to stop, in any case. And ultimately, she was responsible for getting Nazir.

We are given enough indications that Carrie's instincts are generally correct - even in this past episode, her instinct to hesitate the aerial strike was correct, even though she went ahead with it.  We are also shown that the personality traits that allow her to function generally well in her job also make her a difficult human being to love or care about.

 

On ‎8‎.‎10‎.‎2014 at 7:03 AM, Constantinople said:

Brody wanted to kill the VP after a drone killed Issa. And for someone acting under duress, Brody was pretty damned happy when the VP died.

The Queen of Drones is guilty of the same kinds of stuff.

People can be, and have been, convicted of being an accomplice after the fact.

Carrie didn't take down or get Nazir, nor was it a win, since Carrie "getting" Nazir was part of Nazir's plan:

1. Kill the VP - partly for revenge, and partly to set-up the Langley bombing

2. Get himself killed - If Nazir is taken alive, he might spill the beans. But mostly, if he's dead, everyone will let their guard down

3. Blow-up Langley during the VP's memorial service

Everything went exactly according to Nazir's plan. Carrie did nothing to thwart it.

I don't think that makes Carrie particularly insightful. I think many people would hesitate to blow the shit out of some place based on anonymous source with no corroborating information. They source may have been reliable, but perhaps the source is using the US government to take out the source's frenemies.

And Carrie's reaction is that that we'll go get the bad guys, the implication being that next time they'll bomb better. She seems to be unwilling to accept that idea that if you assassinate people via bomb and drone, inevitably you'll murder some innocents. Quinn seems to acknowledge that reality, which is why he's not going back to Islamabad (at least not yet).

Once again, I question just how well she functions in her job. Sometimes she's "right" about people, but given how many people she's suspected of something, she's bound to be right some of the time.

Perhaps, grading on a curve, Carrie is a better agent than most of her colleagues at the CIA, but perhaps that also says more about the CIA than it does about Carrie.

 

On ‎8‎.‎10‎.‎2014 at 7:51 PM, Loandbehold said:

Carrie's circumstances while Brody was assassinating the VP are not at issue. Afterwards, she knows that he killed the VP. Killing another person is a crime and she had a duty to report it. She didn't and so she could be prosecuted as an accomplice after the fact. Now, let's say it was discovered that the VP was killed and Brody was arrested because somebody noticed that he was the last person to see the VP alive. He gets charged with murder, and somehow, it's discovered that Carrie knew and didn't report it, so she gets charged with being an accomplice after the fact. Brody's defense is that he acted under duress, which would be an affirmative defense. He wouldn't be arguing that murdering the VP wasn't a crime, just that he should not be held responsible for his actions. Let's say he gets aquitted. Carrie could still be prosecuted and convicted for being an accomplice after the fact because she failed to report that she knew of a crime and who committed it. Likely scenario? Absolutely not. But is it possible? I'd say that it is.

I think that Carrie is far from being essentially right. She gets first an instict and then she searches for evidence to prove it right. But because she is unwilling to admit contrary evidence, she becomes obstinate. She is clearly second to the heroine of the original Danish serie Forbrydelsen (The Killing), Sarah Lund, who also has insticts but only after collecting evidence. Also Sarah is bent to suspect and and accuse people, but when confronted with the contrary evidence she is able to change her mind or find a new suspect.

Most of all, Carrie had repeatedly been guilty of bad judgment when she has refused to follow the orders, mostly because of Brody. In S2 after Langley was bombed she helped Brody flee - a decision she had absolutely no right to do. In the end of S3 she almost made Saul to save Brody, although it clearly was an error of judgment as had destroyed the purpose of the mission, to get Javadi into a position to make a deal with Iran.

As for the murder of Vice President, in the show he was presented a villain because he had bombed the school knowing that its pupils would die, lied about it in the TV and made the mission secret so that Carrie didn't learn why Abu Nazir would lie still for a couple of years. Still, the VP was a legally elected to his office and as an official of the CIA Carrie had no right to conceal his murder even if it was the only way to get Abu Nazir get her free. 

Just as, Constantople said, Abu Nazir won Carrie in S2. She was behind him in every step and even though she won Brody over, Abu Nazir was still able to use him, first to murder the VP and then his car to bomb Langley. 

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On ‎8‎.‎10‎.‎2014 at 4:36 PM, Milburn Stone said:

This truly is a chilling (and very intentional) irony. When Brody killed the VP, the audience partly/mostly sympathized with Brody. We understood (because we saw the human tragedy from Brody's point of view) the cost of indiscriminate droning, we knew the VP was an asshole, and we cheered (tacitly) when Brody did the deed. Carrie, because of her emotional alliance with Brody, implicitly empathized not with his wish to commit terror but with the emotional imperatives that drove him. Yet now, Carrie has become what she and Brody hated most.

There is an important difference: the Vice President knew for sure that there was a school and still ordered the bombing whereas Carrie didn't know about the wedding when she ordered the drone strike. On the hand, the VP knew for sure that Abu Nazir was there whereas Carrie only trusted in one source that had been right before.

It's lack of any doubt and remorse after seeing the civilian offers, shown by her interaction not only with a soldier but with Quinn to whom she had no need to present a professional mask, that makes Carrie like the VP. I believe that this is a sympton how she had made her heart to ice after Brody's death. Unable and unwilling to give herself time to sorrow and cope, she is full of hate against those who robbed her of her lover and as she can't revenge on Lockhardt, "the enemy" is the legimate target of aggression. 

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On ‎9‎.‎10‎.‎2014 at 8:10 AM, Constantinople said:

Her idea that she and Quinn needed to lie about what happened to Sandy because "they could have done more" -- or Quinn could have done more, I forget which -- was bizarre, particularly since she never suggested any specific action they could have taken. It was just mindless criticism (but hey, perhaps that's why she's a manager).

I don't understand how on earth "they could have done more", or anything to save Sandy. If they had tried, they would probably been killed too. The mob seemed too crazy to care if some of them were killed. Quinn did the right decision to drive away IMO. Even if he hadn't, he did it to save Carrie, so what right she had to reprimand him? 

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On ‎9‎.‎10‎.‎2014 at 5:54 AM, paramitch said:

But did we actually see her forgive herself? Or did we simply see her push the entire situation away as something too big to deal with? I absolutely think she cares that 40 people died because of an order that she gave. But she is (as we've seen) one of the best at what she does while also being able to massively compartmentalize when needed. I just figure she hasn't reacted more to it because that in itself is her reaction. Quinn dived right into the chaos and horror and sadness of it (which while hard to watch is actually healthier, I think), while Carrie is doing that thing she does, thinking she can set it aside. I do think we will see her deal with it emotionally at some point.

This was beautifully said. It's been tough to watch Quinn deal with the aftermath of everything he's witnessed (and done). The saddest thing for me is the way Quinn himself is now so finely honed that he is himself now a weapon that's constantly in danger of going off. 

When we first met Quinn, I thought his story would mirror Carrie's -- that he fell for Carrie while watching her, just as she fell for Brody while watching him. There's an intimacy to their surveillance work that is at direct odds with the sterility and depersonalization of so much of their lives. But instead the story seems to be exploring the ways in which Quinn can no longer lie to himself about the costs of what they do -- while Carrie is still very willing to do so if it allows her to keep functioning.

I haven't seen any evidence that Carrie cared for civilian offers. Even with Quinn she behaves as if she doesn't care a bit. I admit that she can be in denial.

It's strange that it's just Quinn, the professional assassin, who is now the voice of conscience. How has he be able to retain his humanity after all he has done?

Edited by Roseanna
Correcting the first sentence that gave a wrong meaning
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On ‎7‎.‎10‎.‎2014 at 6:23 PM, Mozelle said:

As the ambassador told Quinn in episode one, there were only seven names on the CIA kill list after 9/11 and now there are 2,000. The implication seems to be that we keep hoping that this "War on Terror" or this "War on Evil" is going to just make all the bad in the world go away. Instead, it only broadens the definition of "evil" so that there are now, literally, thousands of suspects. We're in the thick of things because democracy is what we say we're attempting to export but at what costs? 

I think that it's a good way to say that the more people you kill, the more people have a motive to revenge. After that revenge you kill them and after that even more people have a motive to revenge. It's an endless circle.

As for "exporting democracy", that can't be done if there are no prerequisites already in the country.  

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On ‎8‎.‎10‎.‎2014 at 7:03 AM, Constantinople said:

Carrie didn't take down or get Nazir, nor was it a win, since Carrie "getting" Nazir was part of Nazir's plan:

1. Kill the VP - partly for revenge, and partly to set-up the Langley bombing

2. Get himself killed - If Nazir is taken alive, he might spill the beans. But mostly, if he's dead, everyone will let their guard down

3. Blow-up Langley during the VP's memorial service

Everything went exactly according to Nazir's plan. Carrie did nothing to thwart it.

Evidently points 1 and 3 were Nazir's plan, but if he had really planned to get himself killed in order to get his enemies let their guards down, he would have hidden in a place where he would be found more easily,althought not too easily, not a place where only Carrie could find him. Even if Ronya said on purpose "Abu Nazir doesn't flee", how could Abu Nazir be sure that Carrie would understand the hint if it indeed was such? 

Further, Abu Nazir could hope, but never be sure, that the CIA would be so stupid that they neglected the elemental safety measures simply because one enemy leader was dead.

Also, if the bomb was meant to be in Brody's car, Abu Nazir's plan would be destroyed if Quinn had shot Brody as the CIA chief had ordered. The writers talked about this in the DVD version. Of course any other car could be used, but then they couldn't have used the video Brody had earlier made.

All in all, if Abu Nazir's plan went exactly as he had aimed, it would have required too much luck and that his enemies behaved just as he believed they would.

I think rather his plan succeeded because the plan wasn't fixed but he, and some others after his death, could change it according to the circumstances. It's clear that kidnapping Carrie wasn't in the original plan but it was an improvisation to force Brody kill the VP after he had proved to be untrustworthy. Also in general, if Brody had stayed loyal, the original plan wouldn't have demanded point 2 at all.   

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