S02 E02 S2 E2: Through the Valley

[kitkat343]

As a storm brews in the mountains, the people of Jackson Hole prepare for the worst amid increased sightings of Infected. Meanwhile, Abby weighs her options.

[Wicked]

That was quite an episode. I knew Joel was going to die, but didn't expect it so soon.  Joel and Ellie were the central characters, their relationship drove the story, for me, never played the game. Don't know how I feel about watching the rest of the season without him

[WaltersHair]

only slightly less entertaining than the last double root canal procedure I had.

[T Summer]

WHAT?

[peridot]

I'm so glad I spoiled myself last year, or else I would have been devastated.  I'm glad they didn't show too much gore.

The Fireflies are cowards aren't they?  Why follow Abby all these years, if they didn't want to follow through with it?  When it happened, some were looking away.  They know it's an awful thing, but don't try to stand up for principles.  Except for that guy who broke Ellie's ribs when she was already down.  I hope they get that bastard.

The swarm was terrifying.  The guy exposed the Cordyceps in the pipe, and they immediately changed direction to the town.  Then they changed direction to follow the big monster.  Does that mean it was their leader?

I'm still trying to process this episode. 

[kitkat343]

18 minutes ago, Wicked said:

 Joel and Ellie were the central characters, their relationship drove the story, for me, never played the game. Don't know how I feel about watching the rest of the season without him

We really aren't left with much.  We are left with Ellie, who is in the middle of a teenage poutfest and Tommy, who was the whole reason Joel risked his life to go on this mission with Ellie - if Tommy had just told Joel he was safe, Joel never would have risked his life and Tess' life to take Ellie out west.  Tommy didn't need to reveal the outpost's location to tell his brother he was safe.  He just needed to send a message confirming his identity and telling him he was safe and Joel never would have gone on the mission that eventually killed him.

So Joel is dead, Tess is dead, Sam and Henry are dead and Frank is dead.  The only other characters I liked were that native couple Joel and Ellie met briefly on their way across the country, but it seems highly unlikely they would become central characters.  Either some new characters with some actual charisma will need to step up or Ellie will need to become a whole lot more interesting very quickly or this show will be really unwatchable.

 

 

Edited Monday at 02:22 AM by kitkat343

[Lamima]

Very GoT like.

I hope Ellie kills Abby hard. I will keep watching to see that.

Edited Monday at 02:40 AM by Lamima

[magdalene]

Well. That's it for me then. If they actually somehow believe I will watch this show for the petulant whiner Ellie or the bitch they ain't too bright.  It isn't just that Pedro Pascal is one my favorite actors, I came to love Joel fiercely with his bruised and loyal heart. I know the writing tried to manipulate me into disliking Joel, but guess what - I am not that easily manipulated. I am not watching his killers being turned into the heroes of the dreck. Bye bye.

[SeanC]

5 minutes ago, magdalene said:

I know the writing tried to manipulate me into disliking Joel, but guess what - I am not that easily manipulated.

What you're referring to is storytelling.

[Starchild]

I had unfortunately been spoiled about Joel's death, including how and by whom, but I didn't know it was going to be this early. When they had him down on the floor at the lodge I was thinking, no not now there's still stuff from the trailer we haven't seen yet. Welp.

So I expect we'll still see Pedro in flashback through this season.

As for the attack on Jackson, wow that was intense. What a red wedding type of episode.

I hope Ellie goes from whiny to driven, she'll be easier to watch. 

I really want to see her obliterate Abby. I wonder who from Jackson is going to accompany her on the hunt, if anyone.

[cardigirl]

Why didn't they have four horses when returning to town?

[iMonrey]

Well they didn't drag this out all season, so . . . I guess there's that?

I will probably keep watching, for now. But I know a lot of people were watching just for Pedro Pascal so I'm not liking this show's chances at a third season because I suspect ratings (however they're measured for this sort of thing) are going to drop precipitously. I know it's already been renewed for another season but a lot can still change when the numbers come in. 

I like Bella Ramsey just fine, but I'm not sure the direction this is taking will hold viewer interest the way it did last year. It's just a different story now. Completely different. And I'm not sure this story will engage those viewers the way last season's story did. Especially since we've already seen these kind of revenge stories played out over and over again on The Walking Dead.

If Abby's father was the doctor who was about to operate on Ellie, it seems unlikely that she didn't know who Ellie was or what her deal was and would have just left her there.

Maybe I missed something, but when Jesse was leading Ellie to the restaurant I thought he said Dina wanted to talk to her. But he had already told her Dina and Joel had gone out on patrol together. Did I mishear? It was Maria who wanted to talk to her.

[Dev F]

56 minutes ago, kitkat343 said:

We really aren't left with much.  We are left with Ellie, who is in the middle of a teenage poutfest

You don't think that's over now that Ellie has watched the father figure she was feuding with get brutally murdered?

I'm always surprised at how resistant so many people are to the fundamental linearity of a story like this. After the first season ended with Ellie begging Joel to tell the truth about what happened in Salt Lake City and him refusing, of course season 2 was going to be about how that ongoing lie damaged their relationship! (And if there were any question about that, surely it was resolved when this season began by replaying that scene.) 

But it seems nearly as obvious that the changes in their relationship weren't going to be immediately established in the first episode and then not change further for the rest of the season, so why assume that Ellie would be stuck in bratty teen mode from here on out? Obviously a big part of the season is going to be Ellie reckoning with what Joel did to her and what he meant to her in the aftermath of his death.

[maystone]

I'm still in. I was spoiled for Joel dying; I wasn't completely sure it was going to happen this episode, but . . . yep, it sure did. Joel was my favorite character, so I'm going to feel his loss on the show.

The way I was spoiled for his death has a great deal to do with why I'm sticking with the show. I have never played the game, but I stumbled across a very well-written critique of the second game released for The Last of Us and why it is, in the critic's view, an historic change in "gaming character dynamics" is probably the safest way to put it. I watch series TV for the stories; i can forgive quite a lot if the writing and acting are as good as I found S1 of this show to be. I'm intrigued as hell by how TPTB are going to play this out.

Let me say outright that I hate Abby. Hate. I don't understand why her friends enabled that vengeance quest for five years, and I don't see how Owen (?) can still feel any affection for her after watching what she did to Joel. That goes for the other friends as well.

The attack on Jackson Hole was so freaking intense I wasn't sure I was going to be able to watch the whole sequence. I wonder if the next ep is going to pick up on what happens to the two men who were supposed to be on the flame thrower line but fled instead. It would interesting for me to see how the community responds to that.

So, quite the episode. I like a bunch of the JH characters, and I hope the show doesn't lose track of them. As I said, I'll miss Joel, but I came up on The Walking Dead where over the course of 11 seasons I really learned to make my peace with characters I like biting the dust. I hope Joel gets some flashback time to ease the pain every now and then.

 

[buttersister]

I had a bad feeling so only watched the very end. I figured that body was Joel.  Thanks for the confirmation--it happened earlier than I expected.

No need to watch that happen or to follow this zombie apocalypse anymore.

[txhorns79]

1 hour ago, peridot said:

The swarm was terrifying.  The guy exposed the Cordyceps in the pipe, and they immediately changed direction to the town.  Then they changed direction to follow the big monster.  Does that mean it was their leader?

That swarm was intense.  It shows how dangerous the infected are, and that even a well trained, well defended, fortified and heavily armed militia is barely able to survive a huge swarm of those things. 

 

28 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

If Abby's father was the doctor who was about to operate on Ellie, it seems unlikely that she didn't know who Ellie was or what her deal was and would have just left her there.

I have to think that even if they knew there was an Ellie who might be the key to a cure, they didn't know this was the same person.  They also didn't have a plan and were not prepared to take a hostage.  Finally, they knew enough to know they had to flee as quickly as possible once Joel was dead. 

[MrWhyt]

so good. The horde attacking JH was terrifying. The death of Joel was brutal, but expected.

[Raachel2008]

14 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

i have to think that even if they knew there was an Ellie who might be the key to a cure, they didn't know this was the same person.  They also didn't have a plan and were not prepared to take a hostage.  Finally, they knew enough to know they had to flee as quickly as possible once Joel was dead. 

My biggest pet peeve about this whole story is that no one with a two connecting brain cells can think the doctor/Fireflies’ plan of cutting Ellie’s brain was smart. In fact, it was the dumbest idea ever at that point. 
 

When Ellie put her blood on Sam’s bite back in season 1, she had the right insight: something in her blood may prevent other people from getting infected. It didn’t work but her reasoning was in the right direction.

Then she is basically kidnapped by some dumb rebels and taken to a neurosurgeon who decides in less than a day - because Joel wasn’t out for even 24 hours - to open her head. No testing her blood, no studying her cells, no transfusing her blood, examining her saliva - no nothing. 
 

For me that’s the dumbest plot in the series because it makes no sense. You don’t kill the goose that lays the golden eggs and all that. For me it just validated what Joel did and anyone - anyone - should see how wrong the Fireflies and the doctor were. BTW that doctor was what? 25? 30 when the cordyceps took over? Really what was his experience?

And what really pissed me off is that this was never mentioned in the right way, it is not only that Joel didn’t want to see Ellie dead, but that what the Fireflies wanted made no sense. But I guess it would be too easy for things to be clear and Ellie understand how fucked up the surgery was.

Which leads me to Abby who I already detest (even though the actress is good). I understand that as a daughter she is furious and she wants vengeance, but I don’t understand why her friends would follow her for five years to avenge her dead dad when they could have been, you know, trying to rebuild their group and fight the militia. 
 

I knew Joel was going to die, but I was expecting in episode 5 not now. That was brutal. I’m curious to see how the audience will react and the ratings/popularity will go. Joel and Ellie’s relationship was the core of the series.

ETA: edited because I can't spell.

Edited Monday at 06:42 PM by Raachel2008

[maddie965]

Abby has to die. That's all.

Fuck this show.

[maystone]

1 hour ago, peridot said:

The swarm was terrifying.  The guy exposed the Cordyceps in the pipe, and they immediately changed direction to the town.  Then they changed direction to follow the big monster.  Does that mean it was their leader?

I'm still trying to process this episode. 

Boy, I did not pick up on the connection between exposing the cordyceps in the pipe and the swarm changing direction. I thought that they could hear the battle or see the flames from JH. Thanks for pointing that out.

I know the OG cordyceps are blind, but the one from last episode was stalking Ellie. So either this variation retains their sight, or they've developed exceptional hearing. The same goes for the swarm chasing Joel and Dina on horseback. I wouldn't think they would have been able to hear the horses in the snow, especially with the wind blowing like that.

[Starchild]

As I understand it, the infected progress through stages. The first two can still see.

[diebartdie]

57 minutes ago, maystone said:

Let me say outright that I hate Abby. Hate. I don't understand why her friends enabled that vengeance quest for five years, and I don't see how Owen (?) can still feel any affection for her after watching what she did to Joel. That goes for the other friends as well.

 

31 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

Which leads me to Abby who I already detest (even though the actress is good). I understand that as a daughter she is furious and she wants vengeance, but I don’t understand why her friends would follow her for five years to avenge her dead when they coiso have been, you know, trying to rebuild their group and fight the militia.

As seen in the first episode, Abby's group were Firefly kids along with her so their parents probably were also killed by Joel.

28 minutes ago, maddie965 said:

Abby has to die. That's all.

Fuck this show.

So no spoilers or anything but a number of years ago I watched a walk through of The Last of Us pt 2 which is what this season is based on. (I can no longer actually play certain games so I watch other people play, it's a whole disability thing). 30 minutes into the walk through, Joel is murdered, exactly like this with the difference being in game, you (the player) have NO IDEA who Abby is or why the fuck she did THAT and holy SHIT was I SO FUCKING MAD!!!!!!

THEN something happened (can't say what) and I almost stopped, I could not believe what the game was doing. I kept watching...

and it was profound. If this tv show manages to get close enough, if you stick with it you will understand. This is really something just so far beyond anything I had ever experienced in a game, only the rare movie, rarer tv episode or the really important novel. Sometimes, games can be very meaningful art and TLoU2 is meaningful art, I really hope the tv show manages to get there too.

[Steph01924]

25 minutes ago, diebartdie said:

THEN something happened (can't say what) and I almost stopped, I could not believe what the game was doing. I kept watching...

and it was profound. If this tv show manages to get close enough, if you stick with it you will understand. This is really something just so far beyond anything I had ever experienced in a game, only the rare movie, rarer tv episode or the really important novel. Sometimes, games can be very meaningful art and TLoU2 is meaningful art, I really hope the tv show manages to get there too.

Like you, I have seen/played the game, and I completely agree with your take. This story and the way it unfolded in the game had me in a chokehold when I first played, and in the almost five years since, it has been one of the only gaming storylines I will regularly think back on and have just a visceral reaction thinking about the themes and characters. When the game was over, I just remember sitting on the couch, blankly watching the menu screen, feeling SO much: empty and exhausted and exhilarated that a "simple" video game could affect me so much. It's a high I've only ever gotten reading my favorite books.  

I do hope all of you who say you won't keep watching will stick with it. You say you love Joel and (supposedly) Ellie for their adopted father-daughter relationship, but...that relationship isn't gone just because Joel is. Ellie still loves Joel and is now heartbroken. And if you loved the character of Joel, you don't want to mourn with her? The rest of the story is about how she deals with that loss of this father figure that was taken from her, and how she chooses to remember and honor that. Also, there were plenty of flashbacks in the game that include Joel as she reflects on her life with him, and I am sure the show will include those, in this season and the next.

Back to commentary on this episode, I thought it was fantastic. The elements they added from the game were spot-on perfect and the new bits were so well done and expanded on what I already loved. So much excellent tension during the Jackson horde scenes, and I liked how Maria and Tommy kept trying to look out for one another and the way he just collapsed into her after it was over. That horde was definitely straight out of GOT, lol, although points to this show for having all the action take place IN THE FREAKING DAYLIGHT.

Watching Ellie crawl over to Joel's body to be with him was just UGH, what a gut-punch. Bella did excellent in all of Ellie's scenes. 

It's hard to discuss Abby knowing what I know, so I'll just say Kaitlyn completely embodied that character and I can see why they wanted her so badly to be in the show. She always impresses me in everything I've seen her in. 

[Unclejosh]

If they follow the game, this is not the last time you will see Joel/Pedro so if he was the reason for watching, keep doing so.

[magdalene]

1 hour ago, Steph01924 said:

Ellie still loves Joel and is now heartbroken. And if you loved the character of

She loved him? She acted like he was her enemy. She can rot right along with Abby.  I am going to pretend this show ended with the first season.

[MJ Frog]

4 hours ago, magdalene said:

I know the writing tried to manipulate me into disliking Joel, but guess what - I am not that easily manipulated.

Well, if that was their aim, they failed miserably, because I don't think anyone hated him for what he did. Or even really disagreed with it.

I will write more when I feel like I can process what just happened. I gotta take a minute.

[Glade]

Abby is disgusting; imagine the amount of entitlement to think that, in this plague-ravaged, traumatized world, you have some just imperative to go out and hurt and maim other people for your own petty revenge; that your trauma matters more than other people's, and you can kill a father while his daughter watches without irony.  Scum...and her enablers who spent five years tiptoeing around her!  Spend what little life you can eke out before the infected come for you on something better! 

I'm surprised it looks like Jackson survived and can now rebuild?  But I can't believe Joel is really dead-dead.  I'm not going to stop watching though, I care about Ellie and the other characters. 

Edited Monday at 07:03 AM by Glade

[thuganomics85]

Whelp, I usually don't see myself in a position to give performers' advice, but I certainly hope Kaitlyn Denver stays off social media for awhile.  Or maybe just delete it now.  As someone who played the game, I still remember the shit that got thrown towards poor Laura Bailey during that time.  I certainly hope show-watchers are a bit more mature than gamers, but it's hard to tell at times.  But, hey, this is HBO so maybe they are more prepared?

Even if I didn't play the game, it's not too surprising that Abby is the daughter of the doctor Joel killed: the one who is closest to being someone Joel just straight-up executed.  That said, while I understand why Abby has gone straight to revenge and it's probably realistic that it went that way, as an outsider, it is still hard to be on her side.  Because while Joel is/was a flawed, even violent man, he is not just some kind of murderous psychopath.  He literally went out of his way to save what he thought was just a random stranger, so that alone should prove to Abby that he isn't/wasn't the demon she made him out to be.  But I guess it makes sense that she wouldn't be swayed because she wasn't there and didn't know that her dad was getting ready to cut open someone he had bonded with during a tough journey, and once he saw that, he probably saw red.  But I guess that could be a way to compare and contrast both of them: all logic went out the window once someone close to both of them was in peril/dead.  Of course, Joel didn't drag things out...

Interesting that the rest of Abby's squad (Wolves?) didn't seem down with a lot of her methods.  I imagine this is going to continue on going forward.  Also noticed that the likes of Tati Gabrielle and Danny Ramirez are playing some of the characters.  Missed that the first time. 

At least Joel got a little hollow victory by telling her to quit monologuing and just do what she was going to do.  He clearly knew his ticket was punched and didn't have time for her grandstanding.  And that clearly infuriating her.  She was probably hoping he was going to cower or beg, but he took his impending doom like someone who has been through enough shit that he just wanted to go out not being talked to death.  Understandable!

Poor Elle having to witness that at the end.  I know she's been pretty cold to downright mean to him last week, but I imagine she really did care and even love him still, and will probably feel guilt over how she treated him the past few years or so.  I imagine it will get ugly once everything calms down and it really dawns on her what just transpired.

Considering how massive that horde was, Jackson Hole actually pulled through better than I expected, even if it was pretty rough.  Looked like a lot of deaths for sure.  At least Tommy and Marlene are still alive.  Loved that the dogs got the big "heroic save" at the end.  The Last of Us version of Gandalf and the Riders of Rohan!

Assuming we get flashbacks of Joel or something, I hope we dive more into his relationship with Dinah.  Curious to see what is in store for her.

On a lighter note, warmed up to Jesse more this episode due to his ribbing of Elle over the kiss with Dinah.

Won't be surprised if this isn't quite the last we will see of Joel in some form, but I will miss Pedro Pascal doing what he does best!  At least his next role this summer looks... fantastic!  Sorry....

[millennium]

This one horde attacking Jackson Hole generated tons more adrenalin in ten minutes than the White Walkers did attacking Winterfell after 8 seasons of foreplay.

The writing in this show is weak.  It glosses over stuff (like how the doctors came to the conclusion about what made Ellie different) and shamelessly whores itself out to deus ex machina so that Joel is the very first person from an impenetrable city of hundreds Abby happens to meet -- oh, and he happens to save her just so she can kill him.  What are the odds, right?

It never occurred to me the writers would kill Joel.   I switched off the after-show in which the writers and directors sit around and congratulate themselves on the whole overwhelmingness of what they've wrought.

This marks the second time a likeable Pedro Pascal character has been dealt a shitty and untimely death in a popular series.   Characters that seem to promise more adventures and entertainment ahead, then die violent and meaningless deaths.  A golf club in the neck?  Really?   (I did appreciate when Joel told Abby "Shut the fuck up and do it already" because soliloquizing before striking is exactly what got his character killed in GoT.)

Do these writers not understand that Pedro Pascal is the show?   And that many viewers wanted to see how Joel and Ellie would work out the rift between them over this season?   I guess the therapist opening that door last episode was a big fat red herring.  Just like the trailer/preview where we see a snippet of Ellie yelling furiously at someone" "You swore!"  Now I realize it has to be a dream sequence.

Kaitlyn Dever is a talented actress.  I loved her character in "No One Can Save You" and intensely hated her character in this show. 

I wish Joel had told Abby that her father was a butcher willing to take the life of an innocent child on the chance that it might produce a cure.   And that dear old dad deceived Ellie into believing they were just doing tests when in fact they were preparing to kill her and harvest her brain.

Bella Ramsey can't carry this show alone.  They're a one-note actor.   I'll watch the show because it's on TV but I probably won't care about it.  I may even cheer for Abby to kill Ellie.

 

[baldryanr]

4 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Because while Joel is/was a flawed, even violent man, he is not just some kind of murderous psychopath.  He literally went out of his way to save what he thought was just a random stranger, so that alone should prove to Abby that he isn't/wasn't the demon she made him out to be. 

That's Joel now - the guy we met at the beginning of the series wouldn't have bothered.  Five years in Jackson turned him back into a decent guy and cost him that ruthless survivor instinct. 

There's some irony here.  Joel's dead because he unknowingly left behind the loved ones of the people he killed.  Now Abby's doing the exact same thing even though Ellie has explicitly promised to kill the whole lot of them.  If you're going to go on a murderous rampage, make sure you wipe everyone out!

[paigow]

6 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

She was probably hoping he was going to cower or beg, but he took his impending doom like someone who has been through enough shit that he just wanted to go out not being talked to death.  Understandable!

I expected Joel to head-butt or punch her as provocation for accelerating his death.

[T Summer]

There were hints in posts on the previous episode's topic that suggested  the animosity between Joel and Ellie  was setting the stage for Joel's demise, and Ellie's conflicted emotions turning to torment.

I don't like this development. Why not  just have the bite  that Ellie  sustained last ep be the one  that finally infects  and kills her while they're at it? 😕

[marceline]

I’ve never played the game but I was spoiled on how Joel went out and I’m glad.

I feel for Dina. She’s frostbitten, drugged and then she wakes up to…THAT.

People saying they don’t want to watch without Joel but I’m absolutely interested to see where Jackson Hole goes from here. I liked the community they’ve built and I’m all in after watching how they defended themselves. I’m already invested in Tommy, Maria and their little family. Plus I still want to know what happened to Eugene. I assume we’re going to get plenty of flash back involving Joel.

Damn Abby. It was next-level evil to kill Joel after he saved her. If this was supposed to make her irredeemable for me well, mission accomplished.

 

[MrWhyt]

7 hours ago, magdalene said:

She loved him? She acted like he was her enemy. 

doesn't mean she didn't love him. Have you ever experienced this thing known as "siblings"?

[txhorns79]

1 hour ago, marceline said:

 

Damn Abby. It was next-level evil to kill Joel after he saved her. If this was supposed to make her irredeemable for me well, mission accomplished.

I did initially think Abby might rethink her plot to kill Joel once he saved her, and she at least saw that he wasn't just a killing monster, but I could understand why she had tunnel vision.  She had come too far and tracked him for too long to just call things off now.  I don't know if she is irredeemable, but once tit for tat killings start, it takes a strong person to stop them.   

[diebartdie]

7 hours ago, millennium said:

Do these writers not understand that Pedro Pascal is the show?   And that many viewers wanted to see how Joel and Ellie would work out the rift between them over this season?   I guess the therapist opening that door last episode was a big fat red herring.  Just like the trailer/preview where we see a snippet of Ellie yelling furiously at someone" "You swore!"  Now I realize it has to be a dream sequence.

The creators of this show realized from the moment they cast Pedro Pascal that Joel was NOT the show, they cast him because he's such a good actor and he has a big, imposing body and very soulful eyes. The name of the show is "The Last of US" not "The violent adventures of Joel and Ellie". As to the rest of your paragraph here, did you know this was only the SECOND episode of the season? If so, did you realize Joel will most likely be featured in 2-3 more episodes (in flashbacks)? I mean can no one just be patient for ONE WEEK to see what happens next?

This show is not The Walking Dead. TWD rarely ever had anything much to say other than "people are violent and worse than the zombies" and really, that show sucked (many of you know I watched that show to the very end, it sucked and it was stupid as hell but I loved it). TWD constantly wanted people to think "anyone can die at any time! No one is safe!" well no one except Daryl and Carol and Maggie and Negan and even the man himself, Rick could never die.

TLoU is going for something far grander than that, far more personal too. It's worth being patient and letting the story unfold.

Losing Joel like that was awful but it wasn't done for the shock value. I mean come on, HBO knows how people feel about Pedro Pascal nd by extension, Joel Miller. You don't remove that much star power unless you fully believe the rest of the story is stronger than that character and that relationship.

[Steph01924]

9 hours ago, magdalene said:

She loved him? She acted like he was her enemy. She can rot right along with Abby.  I am going to pretend this show ended with the first season.

From this episode alone: she tells Jesse that she and Joel will always be a duo and that they talked it out and are good; she runs into a blizzard to find him (and Dina, yes, but there's no way she doesn't do it for both of them); she is hysterically sobbing as she watches him die and literally crawls across the floor to cradle his dead body. 

But yeah, it's clear she cared nothing for him. No teenager has ever told their parent they hate them and not actually meant it. 

[Boofish]

I had never heard of the game or played so I went in season 1 fresh fresh fresh. I don't even have anyone in my life that plays video games so I had no reference material. I can't imagine being too interested now but I will give it a few more episodes.

Talk about surrounding yourself with idiots OY .. So let me get this straight. They trekked through Wyoming winters for 5 years. Never set up a base. Fortified a camp. Gathered weapons. Pretty much accomplished nothing in 5 years except finding out where Joel lived. Ok you get 1 point.

So instead of just walking up to the front door, knocking and pretending to be a group in need of a place, willing to help, get in on the inside, live in comfort, have food and be close to Joel, they hid out in the woods freezing. I simply cannot. I hate a group of survivors where they make everyone stupid so the "leader" is a genius in comparison.

And how long were they holding on to that sedative? Why leave 2 witnesses? I can't imagine having no where to shit and wipe for 5 years so I can stand there while Dora the Explorer gave her super villain speech justifying killing a man that saved her life. No one thought to ask those nurses why Joel would only kill the doctor and not them. She had no idea what her group was doing. How they lured Joel there with the promise of a cure and a sandwich? Why he would just walk in guns blazing on people trying to "cure" a disease ravaging the world? I guess only Abby's reasons matter. Perhaps I'm confused because I don't have the game backstory but I'm not the only viewer going in fresh; this is terrible writing.

[magdalene]

not worth it

Edited Monday at 04:51 PM by magdalene

[iMonrey]

The attack on Jackson and the swarm chasing the characters through valley were certainly impressive, no question. The show clearly spent a shit ton of money on this episode. But I don't know how Tommy could have survived the crossfire that ensued on the main street once the horde breached the city. There were shooters on the roof firing at the street and other citizens down on the street shooting at the infected. It seems inconceivable to me a lot of the citizens wouldn't have been accidentally shot by the snipers up on the roof who would have had trouble distinguishing between the zombies and the people. Just, so much shooting.

Also, it's big gunfight set pieces like this that remind me I'm basically watching a video game.

25 minutes ago, diebartdie said:

This show is not The Walking Dead.

No but the similarities are there. I'm getting a strong Carol vs. Alpha vibe with this whole revenge plot.

Full disclosure: this episode prompted me to seek out and read a summary of the second game. So I know where this is going now, more or less. Let's just say I didn't find it as profound as you apparently did. 

There's going to be an audience for this, sure. Mostly people who played the game, I suspect. But I'm not seeing anything particularly novel about the concept.

[MrWhyt]

35 minutes ago, Boofish said:

They trekked through Wyoming winters for 5 years

no evidence of this. There is talk in the first episode of joining up with a group in Seattle, from the badge on their packs they are obviously a part of some new organization. They obviously didn't spend all their time in Wyoming.

Quote

So instead of just walking up to the front door, knocking and pretending to be a group in need of a place, willing to help, get in on the inside, live in comfort, have food and be close to Joel, they hid out in the woods freezing.

they were scouting the place, why would they just walk into an unknown location with no foreknowledge? edit: The got there at the end of the last episode, this episode is the day after, they've only been in the lodge 1 night.

Quote

Why leave 2 witnesses?

As Abby said, they don't kill people who can't defend themselves. Clearly the others were having a hard time with her killing Joel, I doubt they would have gone along with murdering the others as well.

Edited Monday at 04:42 PM by MrWhyt

[Colorado David]

8 hours ago, millennium said:

 

Kaitlyn Dever is a talented actress.  I loved her character in "No One Can Save You" and intensely hated her character in this show. 

I wish Joel had told Abby that her father was a butcher willing to take the life of an innocent child on the chance that it might produce a cure.   And that dear old dad deceived Ellie into believing they were just doing tests when in fact they were preparing to kill her and harvest her brain.

Bella Ramsey can't carry this show alone.  They're a one-note actor.   I'll watch the show because it's on TV but I probably won't care about it.  I may even cheer for Abby to kill Ellie.

 

Ditto. I hope Abby gets killed in an awful way. Like the actress, hate that friggin character. I dont know if I'll continue watching without Pedro. Good job show, kill off one of the few likable characters. You don't have to stick to the game's storyline.

[diebartdie]

46 minutes ago, Boofish said:

They trekked through Wyoming winters for 5 years. Never set up a base. Fortified a camp. Gathered weapons. Pretty much accomplished nothing in 5 years except finding out where Joel lived.

Where are you getting the idea that they were just stumbling around in the woods for 5 years?

19 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Full disclosure: this episode prompted me to seek out and read a summary of the second game. So I know where this is going now, more or less. Let's just say I didn't find it as profound as you apparently did.

I'm not alone in feeling that way, not evenon this very thread. You read some summary, who knows how biased or incomplete that summary might have been. Sheesh, here's a summary for you:

"There was this homeless dude that worked in carpentry or something. He pissed some other dudes off so they hung him." Even the story of Jesus can be a tad bit underwhelming when summarized.

[Boofish]

1 minute ago, diebartdie said:

Where are you getting the idea that they were just stumbling around in the woods for 5 years?

 

My own perception, interpretation and understanding of what I watched since I did not personally feel it was explained properly over episode 1. 

 

[iMonrey]

4 minutes ago, diebartdie said:

I'm not alone in feeling that way, not evenon this very thread. You read some summary, who knows how biased or incomplete that summary might have been.

"There was this homeless dude that worked in carpentry or something. He pissed some other dudes off so they hung him." Even the story of Jesus can be a tad bit underwhelming when summarized.

It was a bit more detailed than that. 😉

Absent the various nuances and "feels" people might have experienced while playing the game, what I'm seeing is 

Spoiler

a basic revenge story, the likes of which I've seen over and over again. More than once on The Walking Dead, just as an example.

Which is fine if you're into that sort of thing. Botton line, it's a very different story than Season 1's story, which I liked. And absent the character I most cared about. It's not a recipe for something I'm going to enjoy.

[diebartdie]

but it's not a "basic revenge story" anyway whatever, people are free to shit on things or not, people are free to experience art in deep ways or shallow ways, I just understand the story being told here is deeper than that but then again, I do love velveeta (even if I don't eat it anymore) so who the fuck am I to poit to meaningful art?

[T Summer]

Another poster here who knew nothing about the game,  don't listen to the writers'  podcasts...  I just watch the show and dislike the direction it's taking to the extent I feel disinterested. Not because I think for a minute we'll never see Joel again, but because I've never  liked stories told in flashback. I think it's lazy writing.

5 hours ago, baldryanr said:

That's Joel now - the guy we met at the beginning of the series wouldn't have bothered.  Five years in Jackson turned him back into a decent guy and cost him that ruthless survivor instinct. 

There's some irony here.  Joel's dead because he unknowingly left behind the loved ones of the people he killed.  Now Abby's doing the exact same thing even though Ellie has explicitly promised to kill the whole lot of them.  If you're going to go on a murderous rampage, make sure you wipe everyone out!

2 things your post made me think, but you may see it differently? . Joel didn't seem ruthless for too long to me. Yes,  when reluctantly taking Ellie to Salt Lake  because he thought it would help him accomplish his own ends: a running car  with fuel to help him cover ground and find his brother Tommy he barked "if she even so much as  twitches..." and  told Ellie "you're cargo",  but I never ever thought he'd harm Ellie in any way. He wouldn't so much as take one of her chicken sandwiches.😊

It wasn't all that far into  the cross country trek  when he grew protective  of her and then  teaching her, trading silly puns  and relating  to her in a paternal way was not far behind. That all happened way before the 5 year  time jump. 

 

 

The other thing is that if they knew who Joel was and had a name and description of him, no doubt they knew who and what Ellie was. Why would they leave her behind if there's the slightest  chance her cells could be the key to  a treatment, cure  or vaccine that might end the nightmare of constantly being on the run from the infected? Not only would life stop being such an arduous nightmare, Abby would be honoring her father's  purpose by seeing it through.

___________________________________________________________________________

 

 

While they chose to accentuate Ellie's resentment that likely surfaced at times for dramatic effect right before  his killing,I'd like to think  (as others have stated) that  there were more times they remained closely bonded.

[Boofish]

51 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

 

  Reveal spoiler

a basic revenge story, the likes of which I've seen over and over again. More than once on The Walking Dead, just as an example.

Which is fine if you're into that sort of thing. Botton line, it's a very different story than Season 1's story, which I liked. And absent the character I most cared about. It's not a recipe for something I'm going to enjoy.

This sums it up perfectly for me. 

[Macbeth1966]

15 hours ago, kitkat343 said:

We really aren't left with much.  We are left with Ellie, who is in the middle of a teenage poutfest and Tommy, who was the whole reason Joel risked his life to go on this mission with Ellie - if Tommy had just told Joel he was safe, Joel never would have risked his life and Tess' life to take Ellie out west.  Tommy didn't need to reveal the outpost's location to tell his brother he was safe.  He just needed to send a message confirming his identity and telling him he was safe and Joel never would have gone on the mission that eventually killed him.

So Joel is dead, Tess is dead, Sam and Henry are dead and Frank is dead.  The only other characters I liked were that native couple Joel and Ellie met briefly on their way across the country, but it seems highly unlikely they would become central characters.  Either some new characters with some actual charisma will need to step up or Ellie will need to become a whole lot more interesting very quickly or this show will be really unwatchable.

 

 

This is not Game of Thrones or even Walking Dead (until season 7 when Glenn was brutally killed) where main characters get killed and the show can go on without losing its audience. 

It's based on a video game - they could have changed the plot.  Especially as the maini draw for the show is Pedro Pascal who they just killed off. What were they thinking?

[diebartdie]

33 minutes ago, T Summer said:

The other thing is that if they knew who Joel was and had a name and description of him, no doubt they knew who and what Ellie was. Why would they leave her behind if there's the slightest  chance her cells could be the key to  a treatment, cure  or vaccine that might end the nightmare of constantly being on the run from the infected? Not only would life stop being such an arduous nightmare, Abby would be honoring her father's  purpose by seeing it through.

Who was going to do the science for that? The one and only (so far as the world knows) scientist who could do that work was murdered in cold blood by Joel. Abby and her crew were young teenagers when their parents were murdered in cold blood by Joel, they were not and are not scientists. Joel murdered the scientists in cold blood. Joel put the needs of the one over the needs of the many. Joel murdered them all.

Edit to add that NO they could NOT change the plot as the plot is the ENTIRE REASON for the thing being made in the first place.

Edited Monday at 06:10 PM by diebartdie