S02.E02

[proserpina65]

Okay, so I'm still trying to process THAT scene, although it was interesting to see Aemond be that vulnerable, not physically but emotionally.  Wish it hadn't been with the brothel madam, but obviously they didn't ask me.  I find it fascinating that he defaulted back to the dragonless boy who was bullied by his brother and nephews even though he started out all arrogance about his uncle.  Ewan Mitchell was brilliant there.

Speaking of brilliant, Phia Saban and Tom Glynn Carney were wonderful in their separate mourning scenes.  Poor Helaena made me want to cry every time she was on screen; her freak out during the funeral procession was tragic.  And I so wanted Alicent to go and put her arms around Aegon when she saw him crying, but of course she couldn't.  She obviously was incapable of giving comfort to her children because she'd never gotten any from her father.

Finally Rhaenyra catches on to Daemon's shit.  Emma D'Arcy was fantastic in that argument.  Someone needed to smack him down and I'm so glad it was her.

I've always been sympathetic to Ser Criston, but my god, he was an asshat in this episode! 

I can't believe I felt a little bit sorry for Otto when Aegon fired him as Hand, but I did.

Didn't care about the Arryk/Erryk fight.  They'd barely registered as characters and it's not like Rhaenyra was going to get killed this early.

Now I wondering who's going to take care of the poor dog.

And finally: are we going to end every episode with Alicent and Criston having sex?  Because I don't think me laughing hysterically was what the showrunner was going for here.

12 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

It's all good as it's meant to underscore how much Aegon and Cristy suck at this.

It definitely underscored how bad Aegon is at controlling his impulses, that's for sure.

12 hours ago, magdalene said:

Aemond needs to eat a burger. 

Ewan Mitchell has skinny legs.  The rest of him is fit but lean.  He doesn't need a burger, just more time on the leg machines.  Unless he's one of those people who can work on a particular area again and again and never have it make a difference.

12 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

since Aemond is cavorting in the brothels, does he have any white haired babies floating around?

Strikes me that he's only been going there since the Aegon search last season, so not enough time for bastards.  Yet.

 

[Jack Shaftoe]

If they had to give such an implausibly big role of someone so stupid as Criston Cole, at least they should have found an actor who has more than one facial expression in his repertoire. And that final scene was like taken from some really terrible bodice ripper romance.

The twins duel left me cold. The wannabe assassin whined he had no choice but he totally did - he could have switched sides, like his brother did. Or taken a ship for Essos or something. It's not like he had undying loyalty for that bunch of buffoons in King's Landing.

Also, why wear armor when once again swords seem to go through it like hot knife through butter?

Otto speechifying in praise of Viserys was pretty funny, considering how Viserys was a pretty clueless king himself. You would think that after so much time surrounded by inbred Targaryen fools he would have learned to hold his tongue.

[proserpina65]

10 hours ago, AntFTW said:

By the way... does Aegon not know he and the Greens usurped the throne?

I think he's convinced himself that his father really did change his mind on his deathbed

[tennisgurl]

Viserys might not have been a perfect person or king, but I do have to give him a ton of retroactive credit for holding things together as much as he did. He not only kept his big dysfunctional family was killing each other, which we can see couldn't have been easy, but he held the realm together. This episode was exhausting in the best way, the actors really sold the dire situation and the messy emotions. 

The Greens are so distant from each other, its honestly pretty sad to see how hard it is for them to provide any comfort to each other after this terrible loss. Aegon and Halaena are basically strangers, Otto goes right into political mode after his grandsons death, Alicent cant hug her own son when she sees him crying alone, Aemond has to go to hookers to get someone to cuddle him, Aegon is lashing out in the worst ways, at least Rhaenyra and her family can still show love to each other. 

Say what you will about Otto, but he's a political animal and is capable of seeing the bigger picture in a way that most of the Greens cant, Aegon firing him as hand and promoting a jackass like Cole is going to seriously backfire. I did find a lot of dark laughs in Otto's "I'm surrounded by idiots" frustrations throughout the episode, especially when Aegon told him that Cole had "acted". That was pure "what fresh hells is this" all over his face. 

Cole is the absolute fucking worst, he's a massive hypocrite who sucks at his job and got the twins killed because of his own pettiness. He couldn't deal with his own guilt so he came up with a plan that's basically a wacky sitcom plot that got one of his own guards pointlessly killed in a tragic horrible way to make himself feel a little better. Alicent is also a massive hypocrite, one second she's crying over her sins and the next she's back to banging Cole again, even after the last time they had sex it was while her own grandson was being killed. 

On top of the threat of dragon attacks, civil war, and your king randomly deciding to murder innocent people to "make a statement", the smallfolk now have to deal with inflation too?! No wonder Otto wanted so badly to keep their favor as long as they could, both teams have to worry about fighting wars on two fronts, their enemies and the common folks, but the Greens are the ones on the throne. 

Jace and Baela seem so sweet, I hope against hope that things turn out alright for them. 

Erryk and Arryks fight was so tragic, even after picking different sides they still loved each other. Its also a wakeup call for Rhaenyra, families are going to be torn apart in this war and people, including kids, are going to die. 

[steph369]

5 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Aegon is definitely who Joffrey would become if he lived longer.

 

Spoiled kid kings! Although I found Joffrey far far worse. 

[Affogato]

3 hours ago, paigow said:

You mean poisoned AND eaten by dogs????

Then the dogs would be poisoned as well. 

[proserpina65]

5 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

I am baffled that there are people that actually like Criston Cole.

I wouldn't say I ever liked Criston, but I had sympathy for him in season one because I thought he was horribly ill used by spoiled brat Rhaenyra.  His actions in this season, however, have made me dislike him as much as I dislike her, which is a great deal.

4 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

i prefer to think of the dog thinking, "That's what you get, you prick. I only wish I had thumbs so I could have hanged you myself."

I believe I will start thinking this too.  Takes my mind off worrying about the dog.

 

[KBrownie]

37 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

It’s also a wakeup call for Rhaenyra, families are going to be torn apart in this war and people, including kids, are going to die. 

I think her father’s death being kept from her so that her half-brother could usurp her throne, learning of those event’s triggering the stillbirth death of her child, and her son being murdered already clued her into the stakes of war.  
 

She’s not the one who has consistently and arrogantly acted and assumed that their actions in causing war wouldn’t have dire, reverberating repercussions. That’s been the Greens this whole time. They are the ones who need a wake-up call. Still do apparently.  No self-reflection from any of them that any of their actions are responsible for anything that’s happened. 

[AntFTW]

After this episode, Otto is like the politicians that are still in office, and have been there longer than you've been alive and they don't plan on leaving.

Otto's plan called for Rhaenyra to be dead. He didn't intend on having Rhaenyra around to fight back after he installed Aegon as King. Otto says to Aegon "your father was right about you" or something like that. Otto knew who Aegon was before he gave Aegon power.

Otto's goal for installing Aegon as king is seemingly accumulate more power for himself. I think Otto could have done that with Rhaenyra as well if he had just been a little nicer to her. Otto seems to be a savvy enough politician, and ruthless when necessary, to mitigate the chances of war if some were resistant to the rule of a woman.

However, Otto being stubborn means we have a show so carry on. ☺️

Edited June 24 by AntFTW

[ChicksDigScars]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Say what you will about Otto, but he's a political animal and is capable of seeing the bigger picture in a way that most of the Greens cant, Aegon firing him as hand and promoting a jackass like Cole is going to seriously backfire. I did find a lot of dark laughs in Otto's "I'm surrounded by idiots" frustrations throughout the episode, especially when Aegon told him that Cole had "acted". That was pure "what fresh hells is this" all over his face. 

This is the first time I've ever actually LIKED Otto. The first time I didn't want to smack the smug off of him. The realization that he's the only one in the entire place with an ounce of common sense was written all over his face. Outstanding acting by Rhys Ifans. 

I was surprised that Crispy was made Hand. I was sure that Larys was angling for the position. 

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Cole is the absolute fucking worst, he's a massive hypocrite who sucks at his job and got the twins killed because of his own pettiness. He couldn't deal with his own guilt so he came up with a plan that's basically a wacky sitcom plot that got one of his own guards pointlessly killed in a tragic horrible way to make himself feel a little better. Alicent is also a massive hypocrite, one second she's crying over her sins and the next she's back to banging Cole again, even after the last time they had sex it was while her own grandson was being killed. 

The Crispy body count adds up each episode. You could hang last week's child killing on him for leaving Helaena and her children unprotected and vulnerable and now the twins. And now he's Hand? Holy crap. Who is next? Unlike Daemon's body count, Crispy's is unintentional; and borne out of stupidity not cunning. Daemon doesn't sit there and pretend to be virtuous and righteous. He, and everyone around him, knows he's a cold blooded killer and to trust him at their own peril. Crispy kills those around him with fuck ups and these morons promote him for it. 

Ugh. Poor Helaena. How long before her brother husband starts assaulting her for the purpose of knocking her up with a substitute heir?

Edited June 24 by ChicksDigScars

[go4luca]

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

Okay, so I'm still trying to process THAT scene, although it was interesting to see Aemond be that vulnerable, not physically but emotionally. 

I was just coming here to say the same thing.  I found it an interesting choice by the show runners to show Aemond that vulnerable.

[surfgirl]

7 hours ago, Cristofle said:

That said, while Otto was correct in his assessment of Aegon, this is pretty much entirely his fault, lol. He was so determined to get his blood on the throne, and as it turns out, his blood is a petulant little monster who is terrible at pretty much everything he does. I saw him get that in the moment, that everything he's done has led to the absolute worst option being on the throne. 

It's the OG precursor to Tywin and Joffrey: Redux edition

2 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

Strikes me that he's only been going there since the Aegon search last season, so not enough time for bastards.

If we've learning anything in this world, it's that there is always time for bastard-making.

Edited June 24 by surfgirl

[proserpina65]

56 minutes ago, surfgirl said:

If we've learning anything in this world, it's that there is always time for bastard-making.

Well it's only been what, 2 weeks max, since Viserys died, so if my assumption is correct and Aemond didn't start going to the brothel until then (based on the madam behaving as if she hadn't see him in years last season, then it'll be 9 months before we see any bastards he might be making.  Hence my "yet".

Of course my assumption could be wrong.  And there's the theory that we've already seen his bastards in the form of Helaena's twins, but that would've made him awfully young at the time, depending on how old he's supposed to be on the show, so I don't support that particular theory, however much I do ship Aemond and Helaena.

 

Edited June 24 by proserpina65

[Dobian]

Newly promoted from Manwhore to Handwhore of the King, Criston hits the ground running with a botched assassination attempt.  He is promptly rewarded for his efforts with rough sex from Alicent.  What could possibly go wrong?

Edited June 29 by Dobian

[Lady S.]

17 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

 Speaking of, Blood quickly and easily gave up Daemon and Cheese so I'm surprised Aegon and Cristy were unable to find the right rat catcher. Do they all have dogs and we only saw the one? Do none of them know each other's name and were unable to point out the guy going by Cheese? Cristy (or whoever) was able to find Blood quickly yet they were stymied by him not being able to recognize his accomplice? Go watch some Columbo and Murder She Wrote reruns and maybe you'll do better should there be a next time.

Oh, they definitely could have had Blood identify Cheese by sight, but Aegon just bashed his head without further questions, so opportunity lost there. This was after Otto warned him not to and instructed Larys to question the guy himself, but then Larys the creepy kinslayer doesn't care about justice. He just wants to ingratiate himself with the king at Otto's expense.

 

9 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

Also, do you think Cole knows that Alicent is whoring her feet to Lord Larys?

.I think Larys absolutely knows about Criston with him handpicking all of Ali's new servants, but no way Cole knows about the details of his relationship with the Queen. If Crissy knew he'd beat Larys to death in a jealous rage and claim he was defending the Queen's soiled honor.

The Jace/Baela scene was sweet as noted, but I think what really showed the closeness between them was her asking about both his fathers and Jace talking naturally about Harwin. He can't even do that with Rhaenyra, who refused to acknowledge his true paternity and lied to him about Laenor's death. With anyone else, the mention of Harwin would be an insult to be offended by and fought against, but he and Baela are comfortable enough to be honest in private. She doesn't care that he's not a true Velaryon and that she and Rhaena have better claims to Driftmark than Luke ever did. I think it can be assumed that even when living with Rhaenys on Driftmark she still visited her family nearby on Dragonstone often enough. (Another difference to Team Green, who are emotionally distant to some degree and apparently kept their fourth Targtower kid very physically distant and did not even call him back to court for any family funerals or his brother's coronation.)

16 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Now there is a mention of the 4th Targaryen child; how was he sent away from the castle? 

 

Was that Moondancer or Seasmoke in the skies of Driftmark? I wonder if anybody thought to attempt to pair Seasmoke with Rhaena, since she does not have a dragon...

Since Daeron was never seen last season, I think we can assume he was already living in Oldtown sometime before we met l'il Aemond and teen/tween Aegon/Helaena. I can see Alicent sending her youngest to be fostered by the Hightowers to keep firm ties to Oldtown from King's Landing in the time Otto wasn't Hand. Once Viserys agrees to that, he can't really stay estranged from Otto. Always room for a reconciliation and rehiring as Hand if the Hightowers have already been entrusted with raising the King's youngest son.

Yeah, that was Seasmoke, Laenor's dragon. 

Updated Family Tree/Character Guide

17 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

 Speaking of, Blood quickly and easily gave up Daemon and Cheese so I'm surprised Aegon and Cristy were unable to find the right rat catcher. Do they all have dogs and we only saw the one? Do none of them know each other's name and were unable to point out the guy going by Cheese? Cristy (or whoever) was able to find Blood quickly yet they were stymied by him not being able to recognize his accomplice? Go watch some Columbo and Murder She Wrote reruns and maybe you'll do better should there be a next time.

Oh, they definitely could have had Blood identify Cheese by sight, but Aegon just bashed his head without further questions, so opportunity lost there. This was after Otto warned him not to and instructed Larys to question the guy himself, but then Larys the creepy kinslayer doesn't care about justice. He just wants to ingratiate himself with the king at Otto's expense.

 

9 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

Also, do you think Cole knows that Alicent is whoring her feet to Lord Larys?

.I think Larys absolutely knows about Criston with him handpicking all of Ali's new servants, but no way Cole knows about the details of his relationship with the Queen. If Crissy knew he'd beat Larys to death in a jealous rage and claim he was defending the Queen's soiled honor.

The Jace/Baela scene was sweet as noted, but I think what really showed the closeness between them was her asking about both his fathers and Jace talking naturally about Harwin. He can't even do that with Rhaenyra, who refused to acknowledge his true paternity and lied to him about Laenor's death. With anyone else, the mention of Harwin would be an insult to be offended by and fought against, but he and Baela are comfortable enough to be honest in private. She doesn't care that he's not a true Velaryon and that she and Rhaena have better claims to Driftmark than Luke ever did. I think it can be assumed that even when living with Rhaenys on Driftmark she still visited her family nearby on Dragonstone often enough. (Another difference to Team Green, who are emotionally distant to some degree and apparently kept their fourth Targtower kid very physically distant and did not even call him back to court for any family funerals or his brother's coronation.)

16 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Now there is a mention of the 4th Targaryen child; how was he sent away from the castle? 

 

Was that Moondancer or Seasmoke in the skies of Driftmark? I wonder if anybody thought to attempt to pair Seasmoke with Rhaena, since she does not have a dragon...

Since Daeron was never seen last season, I think we can assume he was already living in Oldtown sometime before we met l'il Aemond and teen/tween Aegon/Helaena. I can see Alicent sending her youngest to be fostered by the Hightowers to keep firm ties to Oldtown from King's Landing in the time Otto wasn't Hand. Once Viserys agrees to that, he can't really stay estranged from Otto. Always room for a reconciliation and rehiring as Hand if the Hightowers have already been entrusted with raising the King's youngest son.

Yeah, that was Seasmoke, Laenor's dragon. 

Updated Family Tree/Character Guide

[bluvelvet]

Can someone please break down that Aemond scene with the milk and everything? I assume it has to do with his mommy issues.

Edited June 25 by bluvelvet

[Roccos Brother]

Of course they would kill ALL the ratcatchers and both Arryk and Erryk had to die.

I had hoped that the Jaehaerys assassins would get away with it tbh. I know it's the nature of this show that the lesser folk always pay the price for decisions made by the higher-ups - not unlike real life. At least we didn't have to sit through any torture porn.

Interesting that the white worm spoke out in order to save Rhaenyra when she has shown us time and time again she bears no allegiance to either side. 

Also, I know this may sound crazy, but could it actually be possible that Otto and Alicent truly DO want peace for the realm and are not just driven by entirely self-serving interests?

Edited June 24 by Roccos Brother

[Stardancer Supreme]

16 hours ago, scorp01 said:

First off, I want to say the acting from everyone is top notch.  Loved all the performances.  But the writing and story are infuriating me and we're only on episode 2.  I haven't read Fire and Blood, but I know the gist of what's going to happen.  My problem is with the way the show is taking liberties with the story and basing so many things on "mistakes" and "misunderstandings".  I would much rather see BOTH sides actually take accountability for things instead of what we're getting.  Having the show lean so heavily on "it wasn't my intention" and Rhaenyra's side is good/Aegon's side is bad just isn't interesting.  

And don't get me started on the Alicent/Criston Cole relationship.  I hate it with the fire of a thousand suns.  If the show had made it a one off thing for the first episode I could have accepted it I suppose.  But at the end of this episode when they go back at it again, UGH.  Why, Alicent?  Cole deserved to be pushed away after the Arryk/Erryk debacle, the mass ratcatcher hangings and taking her father's position as Hand.  I was never a big Otto Hightower fan but he everything he said to Aegon/Criston was so true.  Now he'll be gone and everything will go haywire.  

I'm choosing to look at HotD as what actually happened to inspire the "Fire & Blood" books.  If I am not mistaken, GRRM had said that the stories were written by unreliable narrators in an interview. So I look at this show being what actually happened as opposed to what was eventually written about in history. Folks are now screaming about how the HotD showrunners have changed what was read in the books.

Alicent surely won't win Mother of the Year with the way she is rolling with the new Hand to the King... I was spoiled about her sexing Crispy again, so I ended the show on Otto leaving the castle.        

[RobertDeSneero]

12 hours ago, Cristofle said:

He was so determined to get his blood on the throne, and as it turns out

I think at least part of Otto's motivation was that Corlys is Daemon's ally and he wanted to prevent his proposal that his daughter Laela marry Viserys.

[sashabear21]

Alicent: "This is because I've sinned!", jeez Alicent, way to make a toddler's beheading all about you! 

The whole funeral was in poor taste, but it was politically savvy, so props to Otto I guess. Aegon is going to be super screwed after letting him go. Criston is a violence is always the answer type and Larys is basically Great Value Littlefinger. 

So Alicent's had a whole other kid out there this whole time? Does this mean maybe there's a hidden Cargyll triplet out there to take revenge on Criston?? 

[DrSparkles]

Is this correct: otto is father to Alicent, mom of King Aegon & grandmother of murdered infant boy. Doesn’t that make Otto the great-grandfather?

[iMonrey]

2 hours ago, Roccos Brother said:

Of course they would kill ALL the ratcatchers and both Arryk and Erryk had to die.

I find it hard to believe that even in this crazy world parents would name their twin boys the same name but just spelled slightly different. 

[goldilocks]

Aemond is thin and I’m not sure if that’s what makes him seem tall or whether he really is. 

 

9 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

Unless he's one of those people who can work on a particular area again and again and never have it make a difference.

*eyes my hips*  😞

[CeeBeeGee]

 

23 hours ago, bluvelvet said:

I will admit. I felt for Aegon, kudos to the actor.  He genuinely loved his son, he didn’t want him paraded through the streets and I felt his rage.  It’s a pity he and Heleana are so enstranged. How did they even consummate the marriage with how awkward they are. 

Did they say/imply last season that he essentially r*ped her?

 

20 hours ago, scorp01 said:

I was never a big Otto Hightower fan but he everything he said to Aegon/Criston was so true.  Now he'll be gone and everything will go haywire.  

Yuuuuup. I detest Otto, not least because he created this whole mess to begin with, but he was lobbing truthbombs left, right and center.

 

9 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Cole is the absolute fucking worst, he's a massive hypocrite who sucks at his job and got the twins killed because of his own pettiness. He couldn't deal with his own guilt so he came up with a plan that's basically a wacky sitcom plot that got one of his own guards pointlessly killed in a tragic horrible way to make himself feel a little better. 

When he was giving Arryk crap and implying that he was responsible for Jaehaerys's murder, I was shouting at my laptop screen. What. an. asshole.

 

1 hour ago, DrSparkles said:

Is this correct: otto is father to Alicent, mom of King Aegon & grandmother of murdered infant boy. Doesn’t that make Otto the great-grandfather?

Yes. I caught that as well.

[Constantinople]

One problem with portraying Cole as a dope is it's hard to credit him with having the cunning to think up the Arryk/Erryk scheme.

It's true Colr was able to provoke Harwin into attacking Cole in S1E6, but that didn't make Cole look smart. It just made Harwin look like the bigger moron.

[Sakura12]

I will say the Blacks have more love for eachother. Rhaenyra shows more concern for her cousin step daughters than Alicent does for her own children. I mean one of her sons has to get the mommy experience in a brothel.

Cole just keeps failing upwards. Now he's hand of the king. I wonder if Alicent knows he's still in love with Rheanyra. Otherwise why would he still be holding a grudge over a teenagers rejection.

And he just killed 2 brothers. I would have to say that was Erryk at the end. Because why would the other one call her your grace. Unless killing his brother made him change his loyalty. 

Otto is a pyscho that doesn't love anyone. All he cares about his is schemes. Although it looks he regets that Viserys isn't around anymore since he was more careful. While his grandson is an angry kid. 

 

[ferjy]

I really like the actor playing Aemond. He gives a  quietly powerful performance. Though he wouldn’t be a perfect king, I think Aemond would make a better king than Aegon and (I don’t know the story in the books) keep hoping he does take over so we can see more of him. Get that poison and the hungry dogs out! 

 

[LoveLeigh]

Queen Helaena Targaryen exhibits some strange behavior and I think in this episode we see her total guilt. Didn't she point to Jaehaerys and then he was murdered as she took the other child and escaped? 

Or is she reacting because she saw Alicent in bed with Criston Cole.

If her behavior is not because of that maybe she has a form of OCD or has Asperger's or is agoraphobic? 

Edited June 25 by LoveLeigh

[ferjy]

12 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

Now I wondering who's going to take care of the poor dog.

Not to worry. Now he’s rid of monster master, he’s off having a grand ole time. 

[paigow]

On 6/23/2024 at 10:54 PM, bluvelvet said:

The twins fighting was sad...

[steph369]

4 hours ago, DrSparkles said:

Is this correct: otto is father to Alicent, mom of King Aegon & grandmother of murdered infant boy. Doesn’t that make Otto the great-grandfather?

 

2 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

Yes. I caught that as well

Maybe you can mention what you’re referring to (so we don’t have to scour through the episode trying find it)? If it’s the conversation Otto had with with Aegon, where they’re discussing the funeral and he said Jaehaerys was his grandson, they probably didn’t use “great” in those days? Even a great-great-great grandson would be referred to only as “grandson”.  I’m guessing here. Not that the show runners haven’t made mistakes before. Starbuck’s coffee cup on the table goof-up anyone? 😄

[paigow]

9 minutes ago, steph369 said:

Maybe you can mention what you’re referring to (so we don’t have to scour through the episode trying find it)? If it’s the conversation Otto had with with Aegon, where they’re discussing the funeral and he said Jaehaerys was his grandson, they probably didn’t use “great” in those days?

When Fuckboy bitched at Otto about not addressing the King respectfully, Otto said the King is my grandson ...  so maybe grandson does apply to any relation 2+ generations down...

[CeeBeeGee]

14 minutes ago, steph369 said:

If it’s the conversation Otto had with with Aegon, where they’re discussing the funeral and he said Jaehaerys was his grandson, they probably didn’t use “great” in those days? Even a great-great-great grandson would be referred to only as “grandson”.  I’m guessing here.

It's certainly possible, and probably the best explanation. Just saying that I noticed it when Otto called Jaehaerys his "grandson."

[paigow]

39 minutes ago, LoveLeigh said:

If her behavior is not because of that maybe she has a form of OCD or has Asperger's or is agoraphobic? 

Pretty sure inbreeding is not a factor....

[ferjy]

17 minutes ago, paigow said:

Ha! Classic. Poor “meek” Kirk, bullied by his tough counterpart. 

 

[RobertDeSneero]

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

One problem with portraying Cole as a dope is it's hard to credit him with having the cunning to think up the Arryk/Erryk scheme.

It was a dumb scheme and consistent with Cole being a dope.

[Oscirus]

All of the rat catchers would've died regardless of whether they found the right one or not. Not knowing the name of the rat catcher just gave them an excuse to commit mass murder without consequences. Ironically enough, they have no idea whether or not they even caught the 2nd killer so that will likely haunt them. 

The fact that Otto's schemes keep fucking over Otto almost makes one feel bad for him... almost.

It'll be interesting to see if Daemon overcompensates to make up for his error or goes rogue to prove a point.

[Cirien]

5 hours ago, LoveLeigh said:

Queen Helaena Targaryen exhibits some strange behavior and I think in this episode we see her total guilt. Didn't she point to Jaehaerys and then he was murdered as she took the other child and escaped? 

Or is she reacting because she saw Alicent in bed with Criston Cole.

If her behavior is not because of that maybe she has a form of OCD or has Asperger's or is agoraphobic? 

Helaena  has heavily implied to be on the spectrum but also a "dreamer"/ greensee-er (I think that's the term for someone who has prophetic dreams?) Even from the first season when  she talked about Aemond losing an eye. So I think that's what we're seeing, and also why she seemed to disassociate during her son's murder, it's because she already knew it was coming

[Chicago Redshirt]

7 hours ago, Constantinople said:

One problem with portraying Cole as a dope is it's hard to credit him with having the cunning to think up the Arryk/Erryk scheme.

It's true Colr was able to provoke Harwin into attacking Cole in S1E6, but that didn't make Cole look smart. It just made Harwin look like the bigger moron.

Having Green Twin pretend to be Black Twin and carry out his assassination mission -- not a great plan (tm Tony Stark).

For it to work:

1. Green Twin has get to Dragonstone from King's Landing without anyone noting that an armored guy is making that journey

2. He has to get into the castle pretending to be Black Twin

3. He has to navigate a castle he is presumably unfamiliar with

4. He has to avoid Black Twin or those who might be able to tell him apart from Black Twin

5. He has to find Rhae vulnerable at a point when Team Black should be on heightened alert

All without any actionable intelligence, support, etc.

What if Black Twin is somewhere that rules out the possibility of Green Twin being Black Twin?

What if Green Twin shows up and Black Twin is already at Rhae's side, making it clear that it's Green Twin?

What if Green Twin has to actually know something about what Black Twin has experienced or done in the couple weeks since they have split up?

I had thought the White Worm had figured out that it was Green Twin and was going to endear herself to Rhae by warning her and become Rhae's master of whispers, knowing that unlike Otto or Daemon, Rhae might value her in her own right. 

It's only through the basest contrivance that Green Twin comes close to his assassination plot. 

I almost think that Crispy knew that it was doomed to fail, and just wanted to bully someone and distract from his actual guilt. I wonder how long it may take for Aegon to learn either that Crispy is playing hide-the-dragon with Alicent, or the more specific information that Crispy was doing her while the assassins killed his son.

[Affogato]

18 hours ago, go4luca said:

I was just coming here to say the same thing.  I found it an interesting choice by the show runners to show Aemond that vulnerable.

Aemond is (yuck) a vulnerable narcissist. Just because he feels sorry for himself is no reason to assume he is capable of sympathy for others. Mothering won’t fix him, neither his own mother, his whores, or that of any viewers. Bad boys, pfaugh. 

oddly, i think it is possible Aegon is trying to be a good king, at least like Dad, but has had no training and respect from others. Also Otto and Alicent want him to heel. i think he is capable of remorse, guilt and sadness. So rare with the Targs. Not saying he is a good person. 
 

[paigow]

20 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

If they had to give such an implausibly big role of someone so stupid as Criston Cole, at least they should have found an actor who has more than one facial expression in his repertoire.

Zoolander

[paigow]

19 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

Takes my mind off worrying about the dog.

All he has to do is hang around the castle until Aegon posts the ratcatcher jobs on Indeed... then demonstrate his skills to get adopted by a candidate...

[tennisgurl]

9 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

It was a dumb scheme and consistent with Cole being a dope.

Cole must be doing crazy good stuff in bed to have Alicent going to bat for him so many times, no matter how much he fucks up and how many people he has killed or gotten killed. He's failed up so much literally his only real skill besides fighting must be what he's pulling off in bed. 

Although, considering the only other person we know Alicent has been with is her husband, who was actively dying their whole marriage, and her only other option seems to be Larys and his foot thing, it might be less about skill and more about just being there...

[paigow]

26 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Cole must be doing crazy good stuff in bed to have Alicent going to bat for him so many times, no matter how much he fucks up and how many people he has killed or gotten killed. He's failed up so much literally his only real skill besides fighting must be what he's pulling off in bed. 

Although, considering the only other person we know Alicent has been with is her husband, who was actively dying their whole marriage, and her only other option seems to be Larys and his foot thing, it might be less about skill and more about just being there...

Viserys set a very low bar combined with BFE [Big Fuckboy Energy] = Dumb??? 

[iMonrey]

11 hours ago, ferjy said:

Though he wouldn’t be a perfect king, I think Aemond would make a better king than Aegon and (I don’t know the story in the books) keep hoping he does take over so we can see more of him. Get that poison and the hungry dogs out! 

I think both brothers are messed up in similar ways, and both are pretty sick and twisted so I wouldn't want Aemond as king anymore than Aegon. It was seeing Aegon's bastards in the fighting pits that made Erryk realize Aegon should never be king. This hasn't come up yet this season. And it's pretty funny how cavalier the Greens are being about Aemond "erring" when he chomped Prince Lucerys to death. 

[Affogato]

19 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I think both brothers are messed up in similar ways, and both are pretty sick and twisted so I wouldn't want Aemond as king anymore than Aegon. It was seeing Aegon's bastards in the fighting pits that made Erryk realize Aegon should never be king. This hasn't come up yet this season. And it's pretty funny how cavalier the Greens are being about Aemond "erring" when he chomped Prince Lucerys to death. 

Still think Aemond has a personality disorder. Aegon just alternately ignored and kicked. 

[aghst]

I guess we were suppose to find it tragic that the twins fought each other to the death, one killing the other and the surviving one killing himself.

Just didn't really feel for these characters.  They introduced them last season, showed how brothers who were so close decided to swear fealty to opposing sides in this war.

Maybe in the books their back story is more expanded on but here, not really feeling the loss.  In GoT, Ned Stark is executed relatively early in the series but you felt the loss and grief through Arya, who was there.

As for the kid, the loss of legacy and then the subsequent propaganda campaign seemed like a modern POV.  Did kings try to curry popular opinion?  I thought the Targaryeans with their dragons didn't care what anyone else think.  Agon saying that the other Houses better bend the knee or they will get burned alive seems to be the quiet part that the Targs believe.

Did the peasants have particular love for the royal princes and princess tots?  They didn't have tabloids back then to constantly feature lovable photos of the royal toddlers, as we saw with William and Harry and now their kids.  They had a difficult life feeding their own kids so why should they GAF about rich kids who had too much food, too much everything?

Kids were used as pawns, to form alliances and so on.  Agon and Helena are both young so they could have many more legacy.  I don't think they approach parenting the same way that people here in 2024 do.  For that matter, anyone who's watched the indifferent parenting of Don and Betty Draper know that parents back in the '50s and early '60s didn't fall in love with their kids like people seem wont to do nowadays.

 

[Affogato]

25 minutes ago, aghst said:

I guess we were suppose to find it tragic that the twins fought each other to the death, one killing the other and the surviving one killing himself.

Just didn't really feel for these characters.  They introduced them last season, showed how brothers who were so close decided to swear fealty to opposing sides in this war.

Maybe in the books their back story is more expanded on but here, not really feeling the loss.  In GoT, Ned Stark is executed relatively early in the series but you felt the loss and grief through Arya, who was there.

As for the kid, the loss of legacy and then the subsequent propaganda campaign seemed like a modern POV.  Did kings try to curry popular opinion?  I thought the Targaryeans with their dragons didn't care what anyone else think.  Agon saying that the other Houses better bend the knee or they will get burned alive seems to be the quiet part that the Targs believe.

Did the peasants have particular love for the royal princes and princess tots?  They didn't have tabloids back then to constantly feature lovable photos of the royal toddlers, as we saw with William and Harry and now their kids.  They had a difficult life feeding their own kids so why should they GAF about rich kids who had too much food, too much everything?

Kids were used as pawns, to form alliances and so on.  Agon and Helena are both young so they could have many more legacy.  I don't think they approach parenting the same way that people here in 2024 do.  For that matter, anyone who's watched the indifferent parenting of Don and Betty Draper know that parents back in the '50s and early '60s didn't fall in love with their kids like people seem wont to do nowadays.

 

Really? Parents love their kids, it is not a modern invention. Rhaenera is an exemplar and example, she is fighting so hard for her throne because she chose to raise her children away from the drama of court. 
 

in any case they are also possessions. Even if you are a psychopath, maybe especially if you are a psychopath, you respond badly to someone breaking your toys. 

Edited June 25 by Affogato

[CeeBeeGee]

6 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I almost think that Crispy knew that it was doomed to fail, and just wanted to bully someone and distract from his actual guilt. I wonder how long it may take for Aegon to learn either that Crispy is playing hide-the-dragon with Alicent, or the more specific information that Crispy was doing her while the assassins killed his son.

I think that's exactly what Crispy was doing. He was bullying Arryk into a suicidal mission.

"Hide-the dragon" 😆😆😆

[proserpina65]

17 hours ago, goldilocks said:

Aemond is thin and I’m not sure if that’s what makes him seem tall or whether he really is. 

 

*eyes my hips*  😞

Ewan Mitchell is six feet tall according to the show's costumer.  He's taller than almost everyone in the cast except for Rhys Ifans and Steve Toussaint; you can tell when they stand next to each other.  (Don't know about some of the new cast members, though.)  The fact that he's also slender rather than bulky makes him look even taller.

I feel your pain. 😪

 

16 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

Did they say/imply last season that he essentially r*ped her?

They implied that he only comes to her for sex sometimes when he's drunk.  We just took it from there based on his propensity for raping maids.  Maybe that's not the case with Helaena but only she can say for sure.

14 hours ago, ferjy said:

Not to worry. Now he’s rid of monster master, he’s off having a grand ole time. 

I will picture this whenever I start to wonder.  Thanks! 

 

13 hours ago, paigow said:

When Fuckboy bitched at Otto about not addressing the King respectfully, Otto said the King is my grandson ...  so maybe grandson does apply to any relation 2+ generations down...

Aegon is Otto's grandson.

6 hours ago, Affogato said:

Aemond is (yuck) a vulnerable narcissist. Just because he feels sorry for himself is no reason to assume he is capable of sympathy for others. Mothering won’t fix him, neither his own mother, his whores, or that of any viewers.

Hey now, I CAN fix him. 😁

Seriously, though, I don't think Aemond's redeemable ultimately.  Too many years of neglect have gone by for that.  But I think he's a much more interesting character for having some vulnerability instead of just being a caricature villain.

 

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

And it's pretty funny how cavalier the Greens are being about Aemond "erring" when he chomped Prince Lucerys to death. 

I don't really think they have much choice.  Certainly Aemond hasn't told anyone it was an accident, so what could they say, really?  Their only real option is acting like it was, as Otto put it, the caprice of youth.  It's unlikely anyone is buying that anymore than they would "Oops, it was an accident".

 

2 hours ago, Affogato said:

Still think Aemond has a personality disorder. Aegon just alternately ignored and kicked. 

Probably, but Aemond mostly was ignored by his parents (almost entirely by his father) and then kicked by his asshole brother so that might apply even more to him than to Aegon.  It's kind of amazing, really, that Helaena came out of that family dynamic not an asshole.  And maybe the third son in Oldtown is halfway decent, having escaped the shitshow in the Red Keep for what must have been most of his life.  It'll be interesting to see what he's like.  Makes me wonder what Aemond might've been like if he'd been raised in Oldtown instead.  Maybe just as bad, but maybe not.  (We'll never know, but hey, that's what fan fiction is for.)

 

2 hours ago, aghst said:

As for the kid, the loss of legacy and then the subsequent propaganda campaign seemed like a modern POV.  Did kings try to curry popular opinion?

It's a lot easier to fight a war on only one front and keeping the peasants in the city where they live from rebelling means Aegon doesn't have to deal with unrest from them at an inconvenient time.  In peacetime it would matter less.  That's what Otto was thinking, plus a lot of the propaganda was aimed at important houses who hadn't yet declared for one side or the other.  The heads of some would definitely not support Rhaenyra if they believed she was responsible for murdering an innocent child.  Of course Aegon's an idiot who doesn't understand that so he fucked it up pretty quickly.

 

Edited to note: As much as I love Aemond and wish he was redeemable, I really don't think he is.  I suspect he will get much, much worse.

Edited June 25 by proserpina65