S08.E04: Listen

[Tara Ariano]

Ghosts of the past and future crowd into the lives of the Doctor and Clara, and send them on an adventure that takes them to the end of the universe.

[Llywela]

Bah.

 

I was on the fun train, thoroughly enjoying the episode, right up until they inserted Clara into the Doctor’s childhood. As if she hasn’t had enough Epic Significance to his entire timeline bestowed upon her by Plot Device already

 

And putting an important First Doctor quote into her mouth as well

 

Every time I think I’m starting to like her at last, they do something like this. I want to like her on her own terms, not because Moffat is banging me over the head with how Perfect and Important and Special she is, the Magical Girl and font of all wisdom the Doctor needs to teach him important lessons, despite being a couple of thousand years and more than a dozen lifetimes old

 

I enjoyed the rest of it

 

But the end kind of spoiled it for me

[MarquisDeCarabas]

 

And putting an important First Doctor quote into her mouth as well

What was the quote?

 

I'm also mixed there was a lot i really loved the earlier parts of it.  I'm not thrilled by Clara comforting young Doctor.  It feels very much like there's this need for for the companions to be extra special.  Rose as Bad Wolf (something pushed a little further with The Moment taking on her form potentially imprinting onto Nine), DoctorDonna, Amy now Clara.  The only one who doesn't quite fit that mold is Martha and she's probably the most controversial of the Modern companions. 

 

I will say this though this episode really cemented Capaldi as the Doctor for me.  I didn't realize how much i needed  his speech to Rupert until I got it.

Edited September 13, 2014 by MarquisDeCarabas

[AudienceofOne]

I decided about, oh, ten minutes in to take this episode as if I hadn't seen any Who and was watching something dissociated from the rest of the show. On that basis, I thought it was an enjoyable episode of television.  I really liked Capaldi's Doctor in this episode. It was the first time I got the character.

 

There were two things that bothered me:

 

The first was that the thing on the bed was never explained, nor were the creatures trying to get in  at the "end of the universe". I have no idea what that was about.

 

The second was that Clara's date with Pink was so godawful and he was so horrible to her that the kiss came out of nowhere. It's like she was so determined to like him she didn't care how much he PTSDd in her general direction. The first time she apologised I figured she was curious about the Rupert/Pink thing but she kept doing it even when he was the one clearly being an ass.

 

I should have had more of a problem with Clara in the Doctor's childhood,  but oddly I was more distracted by the weird 19th century English rural setting. WTF was up with that?

[MartinKSmith]

I am continuing to enjoy Capaldi's Doctor. The grumpy, playfully offensive persona he has works well. 

 

As someone who got really fed up with Clara last series, I can't believe how much I am enjoying her this series. I would say "it's like" she's a completely different character, but I'd actually go further than that and say she is a completely different character. The depth they've added to her in just a few episodes goes to show just how badly written she was before. 

 

I have zero issues with her meeting the young Doctor. I also enjoyed the tying together of the John Hurt/Barn stuff, too. 

 

The Rupert/Danny/Orson Pink thing is interesting for now, I just hope they continue to make it interesting and don't go down the route of Clara 1.0 - making him a plot device more than a character. 

[MarquisDeCarabas]

 

The second was that Clara's date with Pink was so godawful and he was so horrible to her that the kiss came out of nowhere. It's like she was so determined to like him she didn't care how much he PTSDd in her general direction.

I think it was more the realization, or belief, that she put him on the path to being a soldier so she now feels responsible for him.  It's a slightly problematic motivation and I'm sure it's an interpretation that will add to the moffat has a problem with women belief. I don't know if I'd go that far but I can see how others might.

 

I had less problem with Clara and young Doctor and more with how Clara recognized the barn.

[MartinKSmith]

I had less problem with Clara and young Doctor and more with how Clara recognized the barn.

While I didn't necessarily have an issue with it overall (as I liked the linking of episodes), the fact that she would never have/should never have recognised the barn did cross my mind.

[patchwork]

They're so obviously setting up Clara's exit from the show that I'm just rolling my eyes at all the contrivance. I would have preferred it if Pink had been waiting for her at her place rather than Clara going to him though. 

 

The shared dream/you're never alone monster in the dark was nicely creepy.

 

Was Clara recognising the barn a possible hint she does remember being in the Doctor's time stream on some level?  

[FiveByFive]

This episode seemed to be a bit of a mess but overall I did enjoy it with a few nitpicks. However, this was the first episode where I didn't entirely find Clara to be boring. I still don't like Capaldi's Doctor because it's clear that he is being super ... "Doctor(y)" but in a bad way while Clara is there as the straight woman to drag him back to the ground. I like my Doctors to educate their companions or be on almost equal footing, like with Donna, where they both learned a few things and needed one another while remaining their own people. Even though his previous Doctor was very young and impulsive he still seemed like he was on top of things. 
 

As for nitpicks & likes: 

I really hate that the "creature" on Dan/Rupert's bed was never explained. I think since the episode established The Doctor was just seeking out an answer to his own fears we're supposed to believe it was just a classmate but as Dan said nothing ever came into the room so there's no explanation for that one. Also all three of them saw it. 

 

I love the episodes where a simple concept is turned on it's head like The Weeping Angels and of course The Silence. This just kind of fizzled out once we learned the nothing was ... nothing!
 
I don't know why anyone in their right mind would want to go out with Pink or at least want to make a relationship work. Okay, so maybe she felt bad after traveling back to his time and possibly setting him on the path to become a soldier, but then he freaked out because someone at "work" told her that his name was really Rupert and not Dan then exited because she lied? He was just upset that she had run out when he got upset earlier now he is upset because she came back, used his real name and isn't wearing a jacket? He just seemed volatile. Either way the whole thing was too much. 
 
It was obvious their great grandchild recognized his great grandmother and confirmed it by saying the army man was a family heirloom before handing it to her despite her failed protest. She more than likely in the future will tell her great grandson about it.

 

I strangely don't have a problem with Clara comforting the young Doctor since she was already established as being very important to his existence and SHE WAS MADE TO SAVE THE DOTOR! I do think it's weird The Doctor agreed to never investigate just where she went or rather if it was any Doctor but this one I would think it's weird.
 

The only one who doesn't quite fit that mold is Martha and she's probably the most controversial of the Modern companions.

 

Technically she was the companion who was fiercely intelligent and (if you take away all of the horrid Doctor attraction) strong enough to make a trip around the world alone, teaching people of the good The Doctor did and then convincing all of them to, "Clap if you believe in [Doctors]" all on the same date at the same time thus allowing The Doctor to gain enough strength to stop The Master and undo "The Year That Never Was."  Plus, if you look at the old new series companions, she was the only one who rejected traveling with The Doctor and later joined U.N.I.T., helped out Torchwood and now works as an alien hunter.  So, yeah, I guess you could argue she's special because she never returned to a normal life and is capable of doing her own thing.
 

And if the "new" ... new ... series wasn't so weird about it after the writer change, she'd be the only one I'd expect to ever believably see again. 

[Grammaeryn]

This was my favorite episode so far as long as don't think too much about the crossing timelines. Am I the only weirdo who has never had that nightmare? For a bit in the beginning it seemed like Moffat was going for a spookier version of His Dark Materials daemons. Besides the sooper specialness of Clara and the constant weight jokes, Moffat's writing was a bit better than usual. I guess the only way for a modern gal to find a husband is to time travel and have a young boy imprint on you like a duckling, huh? Beat that eHarmony!

[Steph01924]

This episode seemed to be a bit of a mess but overall I did enjoy it with a few nitpicks. However, this was the first episode where I didn't entirely find Clara to be boring. I still don't like Capaldi's Doctor because it's clear that he is being super ... "Doctor(y)" but in a bad way while Clara is there as the straight woman to drag him back to the ground. I like my Doctors to educate their companions or be on almost equal footing, like with Donna, where they both learned a few things and needed one another while remaining their own people. Even though his previous Doctor was very young and impulsive he still seemed like he was on top of things. 

 

As for nitpicks & likes: 

I really hate that the "creature" on Dan/Rupert's bed was never explained. I think since the episode established The Doctor was just seeking out an answer to his own fears we're supposed to believe it was just a classmate but as Dan said nothing ever came into the room so there's no explanation for that one. Also all three of them saw it. 

 

I love the episodes where a simple concept is turned on it's head like The Weeping Angels and of course The Silence. This just kind of fizzled out once we learned the nothing was ... nothing!

 

I don't know why anyone in their right mind would want to go out with Pink or at least want to make a relationship work. Okay, so maybe she felt bad after traveling back to his time and possibly setting him on the path to become a soldier, but then he freaked out because someone at "work" told her that his name was really Rupert and not Dan then exited because she lied? He was just upset that she had run out when he got upset earlier now he is upset because she came back, used his real name and isn't wearing a jacket? He just seemed volatile. Either way the whole thing was too much. 

 

It was obvious their great grandchild recognized his great grandmother and confirmed it by saying the army man was a family heirloom before handing it to her despite her failed protest. She more than likely in the future will tell her great grandson about it.

 

I strangely don't have a problem with Clara comforting the young Doctor since she was already established as being very important to his existence and SHE WAS MADE TO SAVE THE DOTOR! I do think it's weird The Doctor agreed to never investigate just where she went or rather if it was any Doctor but this one I would think it's weird.

 

 

Technically she was the companion who was fiercely intelligent and (if you take away all of the horrid Doctor attraction) strong enough to make a trip around the world alone, teaching people of the good The Doctor did and then convincing all of them to, "Clap if you believe in [Doctors]" all on the same date at the same time thus allowing The Doctor to gain enough strength to stop The Master and undo "The Year That Never Was."  Plus, if you look at the old new series companions, she was the only one who rejected traveling with The Doctor and later joined U.N.I.T., helped out Torchwood and now works as an alien hunter.  So, yeah, I guess you could argue she's special because she never returned to a normal life and is capable of doing her own thing.

 

And if the "new" ... new ... series wasn't so weird about it after the writer change, she'd be the only one I'd expect to ever believably see again. 

 

Yes, all of this.

 

I loved Martha, despite her Doctor crush (he was cute, he time-traveled and took her places; shit, I can't blame her. She got through it in the end.) and reading all of that just reminded me how badass she was. 

 

I also really hated how the spooky element was just dropped for the young Doctor nighttime cuddle. CLEARLY that thing in the red blanket wasn't a fellow child -- if it was, that was one effed up kid! I was totally into the episode until Clara got to the barn. It felt creepy and wonderful and that is exactly what I liked about Doctor Who in the first place; crazy stuff like the Weeping Angels. You can't tell me everything at the end of the world, all the freaky noises and the KNOCKING was just a figment of all three of their imaginations because they were 'scared'. Ugh. It was two different storylines that really didn't intersect.

[catrox14]

Uh. Is this show called Doctor Who or Doctor Clara? I mean seriously. We have spent more time with Clara than Twelve and it's really starting to annoy me.

 

I am so tired of Super Clara.  Ugh. Maybe on rewatch I'll appreciate it more.

[AudienceofOne]

Am I the only weirdo who has never had that nightmare?

 

 

I spent that whole sequence going, "nope". "Nope".  And then when they grabbed the ankle, "really, nope".

[Amelia]

I loved how much the Doctor shit on Clara...

 

"Is that what I look like from behind?"

"Looks fine."

"I'd even say good."

"...really?"

 

Then that bit about her eyes bugging out and her missing part of her makeup. Lots of laughs in this episode and I actually liked it. The story, however....it was just nothing? It's like they got bored and stopped writing the script.

 

I have a question too though...does this mean the TARDIS "knows" where Gallifrey is? That's where it went, right? Am I misreading this completely? The last ten minutes was so stupid. Clara started the whole dream and gave that speech and the TARDIS was actually making all those noises? Disappointment during the end of what could have been a nice and creepy episode.

[Guest Accused Dingo]

Soooo...it's all Clara's fault.

 

I loved this episode.  It was probably the best of the season so far.   Reminded me of Back To The Future...all the good parts.   I  am not one of the people who hate Clara I just think she is misused but I thought she was used very well in this episode and love the idea that she is in essence the cause of the "something is under my bed" nightmare.

 

I love the romance thing with Clara.  The guy isn't perfect but so far he is working for me and I am wondering how long it will take before he becomes aware of the Doctor.  I liked the whole....first date from hell....meeting your future relative plot.   Anyway best episode this season.  

Edited September 14, 2014 by Accused Dingo

[Lantern7]

"Doctor Who: The Show That Goes From Zero To What The Fuck Faster Than Any Series On Television!!"

 

I probably set the bar lower than most fans, but even I have to question Young!Doctor. It's just so . . . huh? Can "Moffaty" be a word? So, what . . . the lump in Rupert's bed was the/a Doctor from the future, maybe? It's like The Twilight Zone, only the ending twists once too often.

 

And I really hope Danny gets on board the TARDIS soon, if only to make Clara seem less of a stalker as a result. Can't do much worse than Rory in "Vampires of Venice," right? Just bring him on board, don't shove him into any cracks in time and space, and hope that he adjusts to the Doctor's world as a friend-of-a-friend. Or companion-of-a-companion. He seems like a nice guy, and watching him banging his head can get rather tiring.

 

At least Moffat tries to bring in some good stuff into the mix . . . like pioneer time travelers and Dan the Solider Man. It's just that everything gets twisted in the end and it gets all messy.

 

ETA: Anybody else thankful for the lack of "Doctor Who?" this season? Moffat sure loved running that puppy into the ground.

[miles2go]

Hey, it's the Clara Oswald show! She's giving orders to the Doctor!  And she gave him a recurring nightmare, too!  She's Superwoman!

 

By the way, something grabs my ankle from underneath the bed every other day or so.  One of my cats -- they like to ambush me.

[Eolivet]

I love the episodes where a simple concept is turned on it's head like The Weeping Angels and of course The Silence. This just kind of fizzled out once we learned the nothing was ... nothing!

 

Yeah, when they were going through the litany of "What happens when you have a creature that's perfect at hiding," I was like "...Isn't that basically The Silence?" Feel like we've done this story before.

 

So, Russell T. Davies' end of the universe was a space junkyard ("Utopia"), while Moffat's is...rock formations backlit in pink? (oh, (P)ink. Wonder if that was intentional).

[Sakura12]

This is the first episode I actually enjoyed. I finally liked the banter between Twelve and Clara. They are getting a bit more natural around each other. I also guess the Doctor just showed Clara her future by introducing her to her great grandson with Danny Pink. Now she knows she's going to have a kid with that guy. I also guess that Danny Pink is going to be joining them, since the great grandson said both his great grandparents were time travelers. 

 

I don't mind that she met the Doctor as a child, her entire purpose in life is to save the Doctor. I liked that it was all Clara's fault, she was the thing under the bed.

 

I was about to give up on this season and was giving it until this episode. This one is going to keep me watching.

[catrox14]

 

So, Russell T. Davies' end of the universe was a space junkyard ("Utopia"), while Moffat's is...rock formations backlit in pink? (oh,

 

I immediately thought of Utopia and thought wait a minute, shouldn't the end of the universe be the same place and the same planet? 

 

Also, shouldn't the last man in the universe actually be Jack Harkness and not the Doctor since he's all immortal and stuff. 

Edited September 14, 2014 by catrox14

[elle]

I was on the fun train, thoroughly enjoying the episode, right up until they inserted Clara into the Doctor’s childhood. As if she hasn’t had enough Epic Significance to his entire timeline bestowed upon her by Plot Device already

and this

(posted by catrox14)

 

I am so tired of Super Clara.  Ugh. Maybe on rewatch I'll appreciate it more.

 

Two thoughts on this - while, yes it is annoying Clara is everywhere; I did appreciate that those loose ends connecting all the Doctors to the Impossible Girl.  Yeah, there is some wiggle room there with her meeting the young Doctor aka 12, I loved seeing the War Doctor again.  I guess the barn was once part of the Doctor's family lands?

 

The other thought was that maybe this will herald the departure on Clara.  She has met all the Doctors now and has seen her future.  Time to stop time travelling, girl!

 

 

I also really hated how the spooky element was just dropped for the young Doctor nighttime cuddle. CLEARLY that thing in the red blanket wasn't a fellow child -- if it was, that was one effed up kid! I was totally into the episode until Clara got to the barn. It felt creepy and wonderful and that is exactly what I liked about Doctor Who in the first place; crazy stuff like the Weeping Angels. You can't tell me everything at the end of the world, all the freaky noises and the KNOCKING was just a figment of all three of their imaginations because they were 'scared'. Ugh. It was two different storylines that really didn't intersect.

Agreed!  I commented to my family that this had to be a two part episode because I could not see how they would wrap up everything in the last 8 minutes.  Teach me to underestimate the super power of Clara.

 

Yeah, when they were going through the litany of "What happens when you have a creature that's perfect at hiding," I was like "...Isn't that basically The Silence?" Feel like we've done this story before.

 

So, Russell T. Davies' end of the universe was a space junkyard ("Utopia"), while Moffat's is...rock formations backlit in pink? (oh, (P)ink. Wonder if that was intentional).

I know!  I was sputtering about The Silence which always leads into "the rant" about the stupid reversal of their existence in the universe that happened in Eleven's last episode.  (What is the point of a confessor if you forget that you confess to them?)

 

And then...

My daughter was insisting that it was Mars until the reveal that it was the end of the universe.  I would have preferred it to be Mars.  I knew I wasn't the only one yelling at the TV that Ten was already there!  They found the Master!  What is this?!  I was actually beginning to think that the Toclafane might be out there.

 

My husband suggested that maybe this was the end of the universe was before the Master accidentally wound up there.  But then we were all distracted as to why future Mr. Pink did not put on his helmet when he went out to rescue the Doctor.

 

eta to add a response to catrox14

You would think it should be Jack Harkness, and he was there, but Jack as "The Face of Boe" died in an earlier future time after sacrificing himself to save the city of New New York: ("Gridlock").

Edited September 14, 2014 by elle

[tankgirl73]

The Doctor has 'reset' the universe on more than one occasion.  I can buy that this is the end of THIS incarnation of the universe.

 

Good point made about the Tardis 'finding' Gallifrey.  It raises the question -- if Gallifrey is shunted into a pocket universe, does that mean its entire timeline is also shunted into that universe until it gets returned?  Or is pre-Time War Gallifrey completely up for grabs for time travel?  Or is there such thing as a pre-Time War Gallifrey after the Time War (since the point of the Time War was that both sides just kept going back in time to fight the battles again, theoretically earlier and earlier, resulting in the entire planet's timeline becoming time locked so it could no longer be visited).  The 'safeties' were off on the Tardis, so it must have pulled something sooper dooper special to get there.  I do hope that this is an interested tease and that the Doctor eventually ignores Clara's instruction and DOES check where they were, and then he wonders the same thing himself, and then somehow uses this ability to go to a younger Gallifrey to plant something that will make it possible to rescue it.

 

I don't see the problem with Clara remembering the barn.  She was there.  That was Clara 1.0, not one of her splinter selves inside the Doctor's timeline.  The Doctor has a fuzzy memory about the event because of the timelines crossing, etc (at least until 11), but I can believe that being actually inside the barn is sufficient to trigger the memory for Clara if it had indeed been fuzzy for her at all.

 

And I'm among those who do not have a problem with Clara being inserted into the Doctor's childhood.  If she's going to be the girl who saved the doctor, why not go all the way and have her set his course from the very start?  Maybe it's more than just that it's his fear that is his constant companion, maybe it's also her -- she's his 'shadow' through all his selves, usually unseen and unrecognized, steering his course so many times.

 

It's very clear that they're setting up her departure.  Perhaps this was the Impossible Girl's final big 'save the Doctor' act (I'm sure there will be other small ones, but on typical companion scales).  And fittingly, her final contribution to the Doctor's timeline is his very first.  

 

Anyway, I found most of the episode to be just okay. Creepy, sure, but predictably creepy so not REALLY scary.  Good job with the idea of getting your feet grabbed being a universal fear, like dreaming about your teeth falling out.  But while it was entertaining, it wasn't *amazing* for me.  

 

Until that couple (we don't know for sure it's his parents though that's implied) says "He'll never make Timelord" then I was like WHO THE WHAT NOW.

 

And then BOOM there's the War Doctor heading to the barn and I swear I gasped out loud and started to get all teary-eyed.  

 

A real nice job of 'full circle' IMO, of putting puzzle pieces together.  

 

And no mention of the Promised Land!  

 

Next week looks interesting.  Yay for weird aliens!

[elle]

By the way, something grabs my ankle from underneath the bed every other day or so.  One of my cats -- they like to ambush me.

Aw!  Yes, toes must be subdued!  I miss my cats.  :o)

 

The Doctor has 'reset' the universe on more than one occasion.  I can buy that this is the end of THIS incarnation of the universe.

 

A real nice job of 'full circle' IMO, of putting puzzle pieces together.  

 

Next week looks interesting.  Yay for weird aliens!

Ah.  Interesting point about this being a "new" end of the universe.

 

I agree with you about the full circle feeling to it.

 

I commented that the alien in chains looked to be wearing an X-Wing Fighter flight suit.  My husband responded "would Lucas allow that?"

[ottoDbusdriver]

So what punctured the hull of Orson's ship and nearly killed the doctor ?  I don't think it was nothing, and I doubt the Doctor did it to himself.

[catrox14]

 

You would think it should be Jack Harkness, and he was there, but Jack as "The Face of Boe" died in an earlier future time after sacrificing himself to save the city of New New York: ("Gridlock").

Edited by elle, 9 minutes ago.

 

But that's only if one believes Jack is the Face of Boe and since Davies refuses to confirm or deny we have no way of knowing what Jack really meant regardless of John Barrowman's joking about it.

 

But that is just me being annoyed that Jack has been all but forgotten by the show, but mostly it should still have been the same planet because shouldn't there only be one end of the universe?

Edited September 14, 2014 by catrox14

[Sakura12]

And I'm among those who do not have a problem with Clara being inserted into the Doctor's childhood.  If she's going to be the girl who saved the doctor, why not go all the way and have her set his course from the very start?  Maybe it's more than just that it's his fear that is his constant companion, maybe it's also her -- she's his 'shadow' through all his selves, usually unseen and unrecognized, steering his course so many times.

 

That's a really good point. Clara has been his shadow apparently since he was child when she was underneath his bed. None of the previous incarnations heard her until Eleven.

[catrox14]

I kind of hate the entire idea of the Doctor being shadowed by one person that somehow guides him. I mean to me that kind of ruins the idea of the Doctor being this amazing alien that solves the universes problems with the help of companions not with the guidance hand of Clara.

Edited September 14, 2014 by catrox14

[Lugal]

This episode reinforces my thoughts that Moffat is an idea guy. An idea for a villain that can only get you when you're not looking at them. Cool! And we got the Weeping Angels. But you never put the idea guy in charge, or else you get the Silence without anyone who can say, wow these guys seem familiar. A bunch of cool ideas that never tie together.

This episode had a good idea, the ultimate hider even if it does seem familiar to the Weeping Angels, the Vaishta Narada, and the Silence. But he couldn't even carry it through the whole thing and we end up with the Barn of WTF.

I like Jenna Coleman and I want to like Clara, but Moffat's not making it easy. Also Clara's speech about companions rings kind of hollow since she's busy with her life on Earth going on awkward dates as opposed to traveling the universe with the Doctor.

[truther]

 

I kind of hate the entire idea of the Doctor being shadowed by one person that somehow guides him. I mean to me that kind of ruins the idea of the Doctor being this amazing alien that solves the universes problems with the help of companions not with the guidance hand of Clara.

My thoughts exactly.  It makes everything so much smaller if it's all down to just a handful of people or even a single person behind the scenes.  The Doctor isn't supposed to be small.

[Maelstrom]

Wow.

 

OK, let me say something nice to start off - Twelve (finally) got to show off a bit of personality tonight, which I really liked. Capaldi's really starting to find his groove as the Doctor, and I found his performance quite enjoyable. Loved his stealing the guy's coffee, and protests against the hug.

 

As for the rest, I don't even know what to say. Just when I was thinking that maybe Moffatt's writing wouldn't be so bad this season, I get this steaming pile of crap. Really, Clara goes to Gallifrey (isn't it time-locked? or something?) discovers kidDoctor's Big Fear of the dark, plants the idea of perfect hiding/unseen companion into his mind for the next few millennia, possibly gives a shared nightmare of the thing under the bed to the entire human race (or something? I guess? frankly my brain gave up by that point), meets kidDanny and a future descendent of Danny, orders the Doctor around on his own TARDIS(!) and still manages to get back to salvage her date with nowDanny? REALLY, Moffatt? What did the Doctor accomplish tonight in comparison - discovered he likes coffee, and… I'm drawing a blank. Or maybe I've already started to repress this episode in my memory.

 

Uh. Is this show called Doctor Who or Doctor Clara?

Sadly, I think we all know the answer to that.

 

I mean seriously. We have spent more time with Clara than Twelve and it's really starting to annoy me.

I am so tired of Super Clara.  Ugh.

Yes and yes. Or should I say, YES and YES!

 

Yeah, when they were going through the litany of "What happens when you have a creature that's perfect at hiding," I was like "...Isn't that basically The Silence?" Feel like we've done this story before.

Yup, same here. Moffat's whole "scary creature who does something scary when your back is turned/you can't see it" concept has been beaten into the ground, cloned, and cannibalized by now. Weeping Angels, Silents, Vashta Narada, etc etc etc. It's less interesting each time IMO.

 

So, Russell T. Davies' end of the universe was a space junkyard ("Utopia"), while Moffat's is...rock formations backlit in pink?

 

Yeah, I got nothing.

 

If this is how the rest of the season is going to be, it's going to be harder to stick it out for Capaldi than I thought. And for the record, I've never had that hand grabbing you from under the bed nightmare. Though when I was a kid I was terrified by nightmares of a giant moose peering into my (second-story) bedroom window. But I digress.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Maelstrom

[benteen]

This was the first episode I really didn't enjoy.

 

I wasn't impressed with Capaldi tonight, he was trying too hard tonight.  Really getting annoyed with Clara's snide remarks to Danny and the anti-soldier storyline they're pushing.  Don't care for the Doctor/Clara insultfest and not impressed with Danny so far.  Also annoyed at Clara stupidly hiding information to the Doctor about knowing Danny.

 

The revelation that the kid was the young Doctor was cool though and always like seeing more of the War Doctor.  But I didn't like inserting Clara AGAIN into the Doctor's personal timeline in Moffat's effort to make Clara THE MOST IMPORTANT COMPANION EVER.  Observation...she's not.

[ketose]

The problem with this episode is that it cheats so much of the established rules of the show just to present a (meet) cute idea. On a meta level, I'm glad they didn't try to create a new Weeping Angel or another Silence (which is a Weeping Angel reboot) and it is fun to think that maybe not every supposition from nothing is really something. I'm also wondering what that quote from the first doctor was.

 

Captain Jack has also said in DW that he is aging ever so slowly, so it is safe to assume he will die of natural causes at some date before the end of the universe. Besides conflicting with Utopia, the first Earth time traveler was introduced in "Hide." I'm curious about the barn because I wonder if it was some kind of Galifray orphanage. You'd have to consider that the Doctor's mother was human (from the 8th Doctor movie) which would answer a lot of questions for me.

 

Here's another fun question. Did Clara already go to the barn as Clara 2.0? It would explain how she could move the TARDIS through her own history.

[Galileo908]

"Doctor Who: The Show That Goes From Zero To What The Fuck Faster Than Any Series On Television!!"

You know, this episode definitely reminded me of Rick & Morty. If you haven't watched it, you must. Twelve is the belligerent old scientist/time traveler and Clara is the young companion he drags along on his adventures because he needed another person with him. If Pink ever joins the TARDIS crew, I'd imagine this kind of relationship really forming between him and the Doctor.

 

Yeah, when they were going through the litany of "What happens when you have a creature that's perfect at hiding," I was like "...Isn't that basically The Silence?" Feel like we've done this story before.

I'd ay "but you'd forget about the Silence as soon as you looked away," but yeah, lots of freaking New Who monsters are like that.

[catrox14]

 

Though when I was a kid I was terrified by nightmares of a giant moose peering into my (second-story) bedroom window. But I digress.

 

Wait, you had nightmares about Sam Winchester :). 

 

Sorry, couldn't resist......

[benteen]

I thought Gallifrey was timelocked.

[catrox14]

I thought Gallifrey was timelocked.

 

It was last I knew.

[Lantern7]

Galileo908 . .  . oh my Gallifrey. You too? All we need is Capaldi snorting stuff like it's outer space cocaine, and we'd have Rick. I can't buy Clara as Morty, though . . . she isn't as cringy or cringeworthy as him.

[random chance]

Am I the only weirdo who has never had that nightmare?

I never had it either but I probably will NOW.

This was an odd one for all the reasons people mentioned - they never resolved the thing on the bed, Doctor Clara, recycled concepts - but I did like the Doctor better in this one and Clara annoyed me less than usual.

[futurechemist]

I thought this was a horrible episode, possibly the worst of all new Doctor Who.  Did the episode even have a plot?  It felt like a bunch of disconnected segments.

 

I agree with others that the episode was very derivative of earlier stuff (The Silence!  Utopia!)  Maybe it was the cannabilistic cat people who punctured the air shield?  And Clara making it to Gallifrey made no sense since it is either time locked or trapped in a painting or a bubble universe.  But if she somehow made it to Gallifrey, either she could hide ti from the Doctor so he doesn't realize she meddled in his childhood.  Or she could TELL HIM SHE FOUND A WAY FOR HIM TO RESCUE HIS PEOPLE!!!  You know, seeing as how that's his new quest since he saved Gallifrey from the Time War.  Also, the Doctor originally wanted Clara to visit her childhood self?  Not like another Doctor was terrified of what might happen if Rose interfered in her childhood...

 

I'm also really not a fan of the sort of companion that doesn't travel with the Doctor, but instead they live their normal life and the Doctor pops in from time to time to invite them for that episode.  It was fine for River because River was an oddity from the beginning.  It bugged me when Amy and Rory started doing it (if "Girl Who Waited" / "God Complex" was meant to be a natural endpoint to Amy's story, why keep going back to them?)  And it bugged me when Clara did it for her whole run.  

 

1 little question for people more knowledgable of Doctor Who.  Is Time Lord the name of the Doctor's species, or a rank within the society?  I thought all Gallefreyans are Time Lords, but the Doctor's parents were worried he'd be a solider and not a Time Lord.

 

For the record, my money's on totally mundane explanations for everything.  Rupert's neighbor being the kid under the sheet.  A space capsule not meant for lasting 6 months breaking down.  And all the temperature/pressure stuff they mentioned.

Edited September 14, 2014 by futurechemist

[catrox14]

My thoughts exactly.  It makes everything so much smaller if it's all down to just a handful of people or even a single person behind the scenes.  The Doctor isn't supposed to be small.

 

It sure does make Tim Latimer's speech in Family of Blood a lot less meaningful:

 

"Because I've seen him. He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever. He burns at the centre of time and he can see the turn of the universe. And he's wonderful."

 

or Ten's speech in "Waters of Mars" about "The Laws of Time will obey me"

 

or the end of Family of Blood about the Doctor was being kind by hiding from the Family and then made the little girl live in the mirror and the scarecrow live forever.

 

But I guess Clara was there all along doing what? Exactly?

 

 

[miles2go]

I thought this was a horrible episode, possibly the worst of all new Doctor Who.  Did the episode even have a plot? 

 

 

Not that I could see.

 

 

I'm also really not a fan of the sort of companion that doesn't travel with the Doctor, but instead they live their normal life and the Doctor pops in from time to time to invite them for that episode.  It was fine for River because River was an oddity from the beginning.  It bugged me when Amy and Rory started doing it (if "Girl Who Waited" / "God Complex" was meant to be a natural endpoint to Amy's story, why keep going back to them?)  And it bugged me when Clara did it for her whole run.  

 

 

 

Ah, but, you see, this is no longer "Doctor Who", it's "The Adventures of Clara and That Old Guy"

 

1 little question for people more knowledgable of Doctor Who.  Is Time Lord the name of the Doctor's species, or a rank within the society?  I thought all Gallefreyans are Time Lords, but the Doctor's parents were worried he'd be a solider and not a Time Lord.

 

 

Time Lord is a rank,  earned by attending an academy.  Not all Gallefreyans attend the Acadamy.

 

 

 

[alias1]

I agree with all who said this episode was just a jumbled mess.  What. Was.The.Point?   I like this Doctor.  I like Clara.  I Ike their interactions.  Moffat is trying to undo everything from the Davies era and it makes no sense.  I have never had the bogeyman under the bed nightmare, either.

 

They are setting up Clara's exit for sure.  I have really liked her, but two seasons seems the norm for a companion in New Who.  (Please don't give us Journey Blue.)    

 

On a totally shallow note, I did love Clara's cutout dress!

[Llywela]

What was the quote?

"Fear makes companions of us all." Said by the 1st Doctor to Barbara during their first adventure, when they'd been thrown together against their wills and had been riven by conflict, yet had to work together in order to escape and survive. It was an important bonding moment in that important first adventure - a moment when the proud, supercilious Doctor finally bent to meet his frightened human companions in the middle, a moment when the differences between them became less important than the shared danger that united them, the first glimpse of who that proud old man might really be, behind his bluster and arrogance.

 

Apparently, however, the concept was implanted by Clara and didn't come from the Doctor at all.

The second was that Clara's date with Pink was so godawful and he was so horrible to her that the kiss came out of nowhere. It's like she was so determined to like him she didn't care how much he PTSDd in her general direction. The first time she apologised I figured she was curious about the Rupert/Pink thing but she kept doing it even when he was the one clearly being an ass.

 

I should have had more of a problem with Clara in the Doctor's childhood,  but oddly I was more distracted by the weird 19th century English rural setting. WTF was up with that?

Yes, this, on both counts.  Clara's date with Danny was horrible - but apparently all that doesn't matter now that she believes she will be the great-grandmother of his great-grandson and they therefore must be pre-destined to be together. Moffat thinks this kind of thing is romantic but it isn't! I mean, I like Danny, but the guy clearly has issues and Clara shouldn't rush into a relationship with him just because she thinks they are destined to be together!

 

Why was the Doctor's childhood reminiscent of 19th century England? Your guess is as good as mine. The barn didn't bother me so much as the Victorian outfit worn by the woman who came out to check on him. The whole thing just broke my suspension of disbelief. And I'd been enjoying the episode up till then - I was so determined to stay on the fun train and not let myself nitpick. Then it all fell apart. *sigh*

Was Clara recognising the barn a possible hint she does remember being in the Doctor's time stream on some level?

I don't think so, because the Clara who went to the barn with the three Doctors was this Clara, the original, after her timestream misadventures. But then again, one barn looks pretty much like another, and a hell of a lot of time would have passed between the Doctor's childhood and the War Doctor taking the Moment, so how anyone could say with any certainty it was the same place is beyond me. It's poetic, though, and apparently that's what matters.

 

This was my favorite episode so far as long as don't think too much about the crossing timelines. Am I the only weirdo who has never had that nightmare?

No, you aren't alone - I've never had that nightmare either!

 

I also really hated how the spooky element was just dropped for the young Doctor nighttime cuddle. CLEARLY that thing in the red blanket wasn't a fellow child -- if it was, that was one effed up kid! I was totally into the episode until Clara got to the barn. It felt creepy and wonderful and that is exactly what I liked about Doctor Who in the first place; crazy stuff like the Weeping Angels. You can't tell me everything at the end of the world, all the freaky noises and the KNOCKING was just a figment of all three of their imaginations because they were 'scared'. Ugh. It was two different storylines that really didn't intersect.

Yes, this. This is a recurring problem in Moffat's Who - he sets up one thing, and then pulls the rug out from under it and tells you it was something different all along, without actually explaining away or undoing everything that had previously been set-up. So it feels like a cheat. Because it is a cheat.

 

I kind of hate the entire idea of the Doctor being shadowed by one person that somehow guides him. I mean to me that kind of ruins the idea of the Doctor being this amazing alien that solves the universes problems with the help of companions not with the guidance hand of Clara.

Me too. The Doctor is an ancient alien being, with the accumulated wisdom of a couple of millennia and a dozen lifetimes. This is his show. Moffat has gone on record as saying that this season is Doctor Who through the eyes of the companion, and it worries me that he thinks that because that isn't the story he's telling. He isn't showing us Doctor Who through Clara's eyes. He's showing us The Amazing Adventures of the Perfect Schoolteacher and her Wacky Alien Sidekick.

This episode reinforces my thoughts that Moffat is an idea guy. An idea for a villain that can only get you when you're not looking at them. Cool! And we got the Weeping Angels. But you never put the idea guy in charge, or else you get the Silence without anyone who can say, wow these guys seem familiar. A bunch of cool ideas that never tie together.

I like Jenna Coleman and I want to like Clara, but Moffat's not making it easy. Also Clara's speech about companions rings kind of hollow since she's busy with her life on Earth going on awkward dates as opposed to traveling the universe with the Doctor.

Yes. This too.

Edited September 14, 2014 by Llywela

[Kalliste]

I didn't mind this episode. I liked the creepiness of the beginning but it was annoying that it was all dropped after we got to know who Danny/Rupert was and then the creepy stuff wasn't required any more so let's just not answer anything!

 

I didn't think that Danny was being too much of a jerk to Clara she made 'a joke' about him killing people. She already knows he's sensitive about it so why do something so stupid and then make snide remarks about the water when he tries to clarify that it annoys me when all they see is a man who killed people, not a man who saved people. I thought he was within rights to be pissed off at her.

 

I also got bored when Clara stumbled on baby Doctor and started the whole nightmare thing, I wish it hadn't been in the episode. Would have been better to use the time to tie up what the deal was with the creature that was perfect at hiding.

 

I did like Capaldi a lot in this though and found that I could understand everything he said for once :)

[Llywela]

I didn't think that Danny was being too much of a jerk to Clara she made 'a joke' about him killing people. She already knows he's sensitive about it so why do something so stupid and then make snide remarks about the water when he tries to clarify that it annoys me when all they see is a man who killed people, not a man who saved people. I thought he was within rights to be pissed off at her.

I understood why Danny was upset about that. It's clearly a sensitive subject for him, understandably so. But understanding that doesn't make the date any less awful. There were misunderstandings on both sides, they both got angry and upset, Clara wasn't able to be fully honest and open and Danny could see that - it did not go well. So jumping from there to the snogging without any resolution of the very real issues and differences that came up during the date...that's rushing it, and storing up trouble for the future. I guess we are meant to see them as sufficiently attracted to one another and interested in one another to be able to work through those differences, but it just bothers me that Clara is doing it out of a sense of pre-destination rather than because she thinks they are right for each other. And that just doesn't seem like a solid enough basis for a relationship.

Edited September 14, 2014 by Llywela

[Kalliste]

I understood why Danny was upset about that. It's clearly a sensitive subject for him, understandably so. But understanding that doesn't make the date any less awful. There were misunderstandings on both sides, they both got angry and upset, Clara wasn't able to be fully honest and open and Danny could see that - it did not go well. So jumping from there to the snogging without any resolution of the very real issues and differences that came up during the date...that's rushing it, and storing up trouble for the future. I guess we are meant to see them as sufficiently attracted to one another and interested in one another to be able to work through those differences, but it just bothers me that Clara is doing it out of a sense of pre-destination rather than because she thinks they are right for each other. And that just doesn't seem like a solid enough basis for a relationship.

Totally agree on that front. It seemed weird she did that, when she said 'let me show you' (or whatever she said) I thought she was going to take him to the tardis. The kissing thing was strange, just because one future shows them together then it must be!

[wayne67]

Did the Doctor recognize the toy soldier without a gun being the leader during his time sitting down obeying Clara in Rupert's bedroom as the gift he got from the monster under his bed?

 

Did anyone else find it creepy that Clara essentially groomed a couple of pre adolescent boys to feel attached to her by a lot of inappropriate touching near a bed and then the Tardis scrambled their memories into an odd dream/nightmare ? 

 

As for visiting Gallifrey I'm going to ignore that completely or my head may explode. 

 

I found myself annoyed by the implication that the Doctor has forgotten all those monsters that hid in plain sight. From the Vashta nerada, the silence, the Weeping Angels, or going back further the clock work robots in Madame Pompadour's bedroom. My biggest problem was when the Doctor rambled on about that thing you half see in the mirror... and I yelled at the TV "YOU PUT HER THERE YOU IDIOT". The young girl from the Family of Blood episode.

 

I find myself more hate watching this show so I can complain about it rather than enjoying it any more. I miss the sense of purpose of the main character. The Doctor seems to be drifting more aimlessly than usual. He's apparently putting no effort in finding Gallifrey, mourning his dead wife, figuring out how to visit his best friends or finding out why the Silence spent so much time trying to kill him. 

 

I'm hoping Clara leaves soon since the snide comments from the Doctor about her looks seems excessively juvenile and bitter lately.

[HauntedBathroom]

That was a cracking episode. Last week's was a bit of a damp squib, but now Moffat and Capaldi are really hitting their strides.

[Kalliste]

I found myself annoyed by the implication that the Doctor has forgotten all those monsters that hid in plain sight. From the Vashta nerada, the silence, the Weeping Angels, or going back further the clock work robots in Madame Pompadour's bedroom. My biggest problem was when the Doctor rambled on about that thing you half see in the mirror... and I yelled at the TV "YOU PUT HER THERE YOU IDIOT". The young girl from the Family of Blood episode.

 

To me, the reason these didn't count is because they didn't hide perfectly. He was looking for something that hid so perfectly you never knew it was there, forever. With all of the previous hiders they all had flaws, so what would do it perfectly? If anything, it seems as though we'll never know though because the question was never answered.. unless it was 'fear' or 'nothing' or whatever the point ended up being.

[patchwork]

I'll probably be able to accept Clara's super special role in the Doctor's life(s) once she's no longer an active part of the show. Intellectually I can accept the idea of one person having a great understanding of the Doctor because she has saved him so many times in so many ways but I find my self so annoyed by how it's handled that Clara's very presence on screen is boardline insufferable.   

 

And I don't think 12 and Clara are a good match for each other. Bring on the next companion I say and by that I don't mean Pink. 

 

Although this being Moffat it'll probably be more of the same. 

Edited September 14, 2014 by patchwork