S17.E25: Denver Reunion, Part 2

[Elizzikra]

41 minutes ago, ECM1231 said:

Yes, the excess fabric  made her look heavier than she actually is. Matronly is exactly right. My husband agreed with me that we didn't care for her dark lipstick, either.

I didn't love the look on Becca, but those flow-y maxi dresses have had a moment for awhile now. I think the high slit was supposed to save it from being matronly. I didn't like the dark lipstick either. I think Becca is too fair for that look (though it also gives me 90's flashbacks).

Just to give the men's sartorial choices the same level of attention as the women's, my husband though Brennan's jacket looked like it was made from a 1950's sofa cover and the only shirt uglier than the one Austin wore to the tell-all is the one he wore on decision day. I do think he looks better without the beard. 

Quote

All I know is if I was a guy, I wouldn’t go near Emily with a ten foot pole.  There is nothing about her that is flattering.  Drinks too much, sleeps around, dresses provocatively, and talks rough.  Then she turns on the waterworks when someone insults her.  Just my opinion.

I am not fond of Brennan and Emily, separately or as a couple, but I have to credit them with giving me some interesting food for thought this season, and some really interesting conversations with my husband. I realized watching the season, that he and I never asked each other how many sexual partners we had in the past (we were middle aged when we met so it was safe to assume it was a non-zero number, especially as he has a bio child). We had a really interesting conversation about why that was - and it never veered into "so hey - what is your number?"

Emily got a lot of criticisms like these and I dislike them because I think they are things that our society tolerates, and even sometimes celebrates in men. I disliked the constant use of "fuck" though I say it myself. But I also think that people judge women more harshly for that language than men. And someone must like that women dress proactively or advertising for virtually every product ever wouldn't rely so heavily on scantily clad women (not to mention cultural institutions such as Playboy, Hooters, etc.). You can't tell me that Brennan doesn't enjoy looking at women in bikinis when he goes to the beach so what about Emily's clothing bothers him? He wants to ogle one type of woman but marry another? That seems to be a pretty dehumanizing view of women.

Similarly, what does it mean that Emily "sleeps around." She has had sex with some number of men (we don't know how many and we don't know if it's more or fewer than the number of women Brennan has had sex with). We know that she has had sex outside committed relationships because she told us that. So all we really know is that she has had sex, enjoyed it, and is female. Why is that bad or "unflattering?" How many sexual partners is "too many?" I'll bet if someone asked Brennan, he would not be able to articulate what it was about this aspect of Emily's life that bothered him. We might have found out that Brennan has actually had more sex than Emily (I don't know that to be true but I'm acutely aware that we don't know a whole lot of detail about either of theyr sexual histories, though much was made of Emily's purported fondness for one night stands). Was he afraid that she would cheat on him? Did he not like that she had sex outside committed relationships and thought that said something about her morals and values? Did he fear that one of her prior partners might be a friend or colleague of his? Did he just think that it was "dirty" or "slutty" of her to have had sex in the past and not felt a need to be embarrassed or ashamed of it? Did he just want his penis to go where no other penis had gone before?

IF Brennan had been honest about the fact that this bothered him and IF the experts truly had helped them explore these issues, that would have been compelling television to me. I would have greatly preferred this to the constant bickering between the two of them about lying and gaslighting and which one of them was prettier than the other. 

Edited April 19 by Elizzikra

[Blissfool]

15 hours ago, Lindz said:

WHERE'D Emily even come from with the Clare defense???? Kev asked her final word & said nothing about her statement!!! 🤨 Is she hearing things?!!

I was confused too so I rewound and saw that Clare made her statement and finished off with "you all can believe me or not, I don't care!" That's when Emily asked why no one believes Clare.

12 hours ago, Lindz said:

WTF are Emily & Clare crying for?!!!  

That shot of them both on screen crying was hilarious! 

2 hours ago, kristen111 said:

Speaking of, I hated Becca’s dress.  So much material.  Where was she going?  To a Ball?  Too

And then it had a "sexy" cutout in the upper back but she was wearing something (a tube top? Spanx?) underneath,  which made it look tacky.

[Rightside]

4 hours ago, candall said:

Two hours for Part TWO of the reunion?  Wow, they're sucking the last drop of juice out of this disaster movie.  Wait, say what now?  There's still "Denver:  A Look Back" coming up and a "Where Are They Now?" episode next week??

This has been the most "filler episode" season ever!

Still don't know we needed 99 episodes!

[Auntie Anxiety]

9 hours ago, lauralu said:

ladies are bonkers!  The men most likely were manipulative and have definitely lied but when I feel sorry for lying manipulators then you know that what they were up against was worse.  Plugging your ears and stomping your feet and yelling liar liar pants on fire over and over again does not make it true. 

Butbutbut they’re strong! They’re independent! Girl power! 

[Auntie Anxiety]

9 hours ago, seacliffsal said:

Oh, and no matter how many times someone says they are speaking 'their truth' doesn't mean it's true.

Honestly, when I hear the term “ my truth,” it’s like a neon sign flashing “Bullshit Incoming.” 

[Hip-to-be-Square]

Yap, yap, yap, cry, cry cry! These bitches need to get a grip! 😅  If they're all saying that the guys are "hideous" and "out of their league" then why do they act so betrayed by them? Move on, girls! Their friendship is built on hate and anger- that's healthy 😏. I bet they'll get BFF group tattoos in the where are they now episode. 

[princelina]

3 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

Similarly, what does it mean that Emily "sleeps around."

We might have found out that Brennan has actually had more sex than Emily (I don't know that to be true but I'm acutely aware that we don't know a whole lot of detail about either of their sexual histories, though much was made of Emily's purported fondness for one night stands). 

IF Brennan had been honest about the fact that this bothered him and IF the experts truly had helped them explore these issues, that would have been compelling television to me.

I think Emily's purported fondness for one night stands = what is meant by Emily "sleeps around" and the root of Brennan's issue with her.  I remember him saying it early on during their honeymoon and have always felt it was what turned him off.  (At the time it seemed like she had told him that - now we find out it was one of her "friends" who told him at the wedding).  If he doesn't want a girl who's into one night stands - to me that's the sort of thing that should be discovered in the "extensive personality testing" that the "experts" supposedly do.  I do believe that he told her that off camera and she refused to believe it, and he felt it would be rude to say it on tv.

Cameron continues to lie - loved his tears for Pepper, and her eyeball roll 😄

I was really hoping for Lauren to talk about Orion setting her up with the "redskin" comment.  I did enjoy her telling Cam to step off 🤣

[redpencil]

There were so many scenes backstage of the women gearing themselves up to be deliberately combative. Before the last session either Emily or Clare (can't remember which) told the other one something like "This is the last time, just keep fighting." And I thought, what or who are you fighting? And why? They very clearly were only there to fight and win some kind of perceived battle between them and the men. Just let it go already! By the end of that last session, I definitely think Lauren was starting to clue in, when she said just let them get 10 words in already. I think Emily and Clare are the main instigators of this, and Becca is just a follower, letting herself be dragged down with them.

I also caught a clip from the where are they now preview of Chloe talking to Brennan and Cam (I think it was) and she says "These women do not want to heal" followed by a clip of Emily, Clare, and Becca together and Emily says something like "Sometimes it's good to have some hate". Seems like maybe Chloe tried to keep in touch with them in some way but they have no interest in letting go of their grievances, so she's out. I'm genuinely intrigued to learn more.

I thought it was kind of hilarious when Cam was trying to tell the story of the "double date" situation and Clare went into (what seemed to me to be) performative crying, and Cam was like "should I continue?" Lol. And then Brennan tried to pick up the story, and Emily followed suit and it was both Clare and Emily in full-on performative histrionics. Hahaha. What a complete train wreck those two are.

I don't really trust Cam, but I think what Brennan was finally allowed to get out about the "double date" story (short and sweet as he promised) was way more believable to me than whatever the women got into their head about it.

Last thing, when Emily made her comment about her being an 8.5 and Brennan being a 6 who nobody would hit in on a bar or whatever, Brennan's reaction was definitely one of "here we go again". I think he must have gotten a lot of this side of Emily behind the scenes, where she just refused to acknowledge or believe anything he said to her off camera. I don't particularly like Brennan either, but after this, I would hang out with him a million times before I would spend any time with Emily.

[Elizzikra]

3 hours ago, princelina said:

I think Emily's purported fondness for one night stands = what is meant by Emily "sleeps around" and the root of Brennan's issue with her.  I remember him saying it early on during their honeymoon and have always felt it was what turned him off.  (At the time it seemed like she had told him that - now we find out it was one of her "friends" who told him at the wedding).  If he doesn't want a girl who's into one night stands - to me that's the sort of thing that should be discovered in the "extensive personality testing" that the "experts" supposedly do.  I do believe that he told her that off camera and she refused to believe it, and he felt it would be rude to say it on tv.

Cameron continues to lie - loved his tears for Pepper, and her eyeball roll 😄

I was really hoping for Lauren to talk about Orion setting her up with the "redskin" comment.  I did enjoy her telling Cam to step off 🤣

My question is, why does Emily’s sexual past matter so much to Brennan? She liked one night stands as a single woman. She is married now (or she was). Presumably she was going to stop with the one night stands as a married woman, unless Brennan was concerned that she would be unfaithful to him. 
 

My guess is that he never told the experts that he didn’t tell the experts that he didn’t want a woman who “slept around” (I note again that we don’t have any idea whether Emily had 1 or 100 casual sexual encounters) because he didn’t think he had to. I think in his view, he would think the experts should know that a guy like him wouldn’t want a “slut that sleeps around” and I think he was offended that he was matched with someone like that. I think he was shocked that Emily didn’t think she should be ashamed or embarrassed by her sexual past and really couldn’t understand why she didn’t want his “protection” around this issue.

i would have loved air someone to press Brennan on this issue and actually allow him to answer the question without interruption. I would bet that Brennan can’t articulate how much premarital sex is “too much” for someone to have for him to be attractive to him. I would also bet that he doesn’t know how many casual sexual encounters Emily has had (and since I’m in a betting mood, I’ll further wager that it’s not as many as we were led to believe). I think by the end of the wedding, Brennan had tagged Emily as a “slut” and written her off as a mate without really exploring what that meant to him and to her. That was a lost opportunity - not for the marriage (which was never going to work) but for more interesting television than we got.

[Chatty Cake]

As usual I only got through half the episode so far.

Emilys immature behavior during her segment with Brennan made her look dishonest and unable to handle a relationship. He may not have been a great guy but he kept his composure and even apologized to her later. She of course didn’t believe him. I do agree with him that she’s negative. I also think she’s delusional. 
I started to doubt Cams illness for the first time during this episode. Stress induced at his age? I know it’s possible but he never appeared that stressed to me. 

[Madding crowd]

I noticed the women kept bringing up accusations then changing the accusation when the men said it wasn’t true. “You wanted to sleep with my friend Lily” “No that didn’t happen” “Ok, well you tried to kiss Claire’s friend in the hot tub “ No, that didn’t happen.” “Ok, but you tried to double date with Cameron” On and On.

What I heard Brennan say about Emily had to do with her behavior and negativity during the marriage and the fact that she was selfish and liked to party too much. I don’t like Brennan but Emily seems negative, immature and mean. Becca and Austin at least stayed out of the fray somewhat which shows some maturity.

Edited April 19 by Madding crowd

[seacliffsal]

I actually kind of felt sorry for Austin and Becca during this episode.  Austin just looked so defeated and really didn't say anything.  Even his 'not feeling well,' followed by shaving his beard-I think he could be a bit depressed about this whole experience (I'm not trying to 'diagnose,' just observing his behaviors).  And, I think by the end of the episode Becca seemed really sad.  Maybe she started to understand that maybe the women were being more vindictive and performative than was really necessary or warranted.

Kevin better have received a bonus for trying to moderate this mess.  BUT, the production seemed to demand focusing on the cast trying to manipulate a story rather than the huge casting mistakes they made this season.  I don't think there was as much of a behind the scenes manipulative strategy formed as Kevin, the 'experts', and production want us to believe.  They are trying to blame the cast for their own mistakes.  Were the cast being disingenious?  Yes, but the bigger blame is in the casting process.  I think Austin did tell them that his faith was important, I think Cam did tell them he liked tall and slim, I think Brennan probably told them some of his preferences.  I have no idea what Orion told them as his word salad often confuses me.  And, if it's true that they recruited several of the men, the producers probably made some promises about the matches that they didn't back up.

But, the producers wanted drama-and they got it.  Now they just need to 'own' up to it.  Dr. Pepper sure was on the 'how can we help when you don't tell us the truth?' bandwagon; but what does she tell the casts of other seasons who ask for help and still end up with a disaster?

[Cramps]

With regards to the suggested sexism of Brennan not being interested in Emily based on her sexual past…if I came on the show as a bride and the experts fixed me up with a groom who had NEVER been in a relationship, and was described as a party boy who had a history of one night stands, (and as best I can recall with Emily, made comments emphasizing that about themself at the wedding), I’d be pretty damn wary of the experts’ choice for me too. 

If that person then turned out to be as unrealistic and vindictive as Emily has shown herself to be lately, I’d have shut down too. And I say that as someone who never liked the Brennan I saw on tv. 

All that said, I’ve felt Claire was the main instigator on the women’s side. And it doesn’t take much to get Emily to explode. I wish Becca had kept her distance from them. They seem to have dragged her into their crap. 
 

On the men’s side, Cameron is really mean and vindictive. The way he spent the first part of the reunion trashing Claire, but then said he wanted to get back together with her, with a smile that looked both triumphant and vicious  was really messed up. 

 

[Empress1]

5 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

I think in his view, he would think the experts should know that a guy like him wouldn’t want a “slut that sleeps around” and I think he was offended that he was matched with someone like that. I think he was shocked that Emily didn’t think she should be ashamed or embarrassed by her sexual past and really couldn’t understand why she didn’t want his “protection” around this issue.

I don’t think he was slut-shaming her. In one of the Afterparty episodes, he said he questioned if she was ready for marriage given that she had no relationship experience. He mentioned the one-nighters but also said he wondered if she was ready - the one-nighters were part of the evidence of her lack of long-term experience. I think if she’d had one nighters AND some relationship experience (as many of us have) and he focused on the one-nighters, then I think he’d be slut-shaming, but he didn’t do that.

 He also described her as draining, which I think had more to do with her drinking. We heard him say he found her to be negative (which the show backed up with a clip of her talking shit about Chloe and Michael), and he said this episode that he wasn’t attracted to her (which she said she didn’t believe, which … what?), pointing out that one can recognize that someone is attractive (and I don’t think Emily is particularly attractive) and not be attracted TO them, which is something I say all the time. Brad Pitt has never done anything for me, for example.

In other words, I think Brennan disliked a lot about Emily, not just her sexual history. And I’m not even sure he disliked her sexual history; he just questioned if she was ready for marriage, which IMO is fair. It didn’t even sound like she had “situationship” history; it sounded like she’s never had more than two dates with the same guy.

Virginia on … wherever that season was questioned herself if she was ready because she’d been single and “promiscuous” (her word, not mine) since college. I think it’s a reasonable concern.

[After7Only]

6 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

My question is, why does Emily’s sexual past matter so much to Brennan? She liked one night stands as a single woman. She is married now (or she was). Presumably she was going to stop with the one night stands as a married woman, unless Brennan was concerned that she would be unfaithful to him.

The issue may have been that she ONLY has had one night stands and no serious relationships.   Which may be fine in your early 20s.   But by 30, that's a serious red flag when considering a long term relationship.  Man or woman.   

[seacliffsal]

I think the editing led some of us (including me) to think Brennan was horrible to Emily.  However, the reunion shows seem to reveal that Brennan had some valid concerns.  He thought she was negative while she insisted she was the most positive person she knew.  But, in this episode she was very negative while stating she was positive (and if she's the most positive person she knows I wonder about her circle of friends [but, then again, we did see her friends tell some negative things to Brennan at the wedding and we saw them on attack mode during their housewarming party, so maybe she is the most positive person she knows).  I think Emily and Clare were really given unrealistically sympathetic edits that hid some of their more positive, er, negative traits.  I also think they hid a lot about Cameron but were wary of his medical issues.

[LennieBriscoe]

Re-watching some. 

WTH does Emily think she is, talking over, challenging, accusing, and making her ugly faces at Kevin?! 

And IMO, Emily's unremitting negative attitude towards Brennan no matter what he says is evidence that she is stuck on him ❣😉!

"Vocal Fry Scale, 1--10 (10 = OMGSTHU)":

Chloe --- 3 👎

Clare --- 4  😬

Lauren ---4  😬

Emily --- 8  😖

Becca --- 10   🙉 

Edited April 19 by LennieBriscoe

[Retired at last]

I got the impression that Brennan's dislike for Emily came from the drinking, and not necessarily the sex. I remember him saying something about, "someone being in their 30s is a little old to be the party girl," and I took that to mean the drinking and wild behavior. Maybe it was both since he was not happy with the shower incident when she wanted sex (while she was drinking).

And, I agree that Clairapist was the instigator, getting Emily riled up and poor Becca as a follower. The way that they all patted each others' arms and comforted each other was cringey. As long as Clairapist can be in charge, she and Emily will be BFFs. Becca needs to break away and get some counseling to find her lost self-esteem. Lauren and Chloe don't want to play.

[Starlight925]

The 3 women (Clare, Emily, and Becca) are all hurt because their grooms were simply not attracted to them.

So the 3 men (Cam, Brennan, and Austin) couldn't see themselves becoming intimate with their wives.

As a new bride, having your husband turn away from you in bed is hurtful.

They turned that hurt into anger and blame, rather than empathy and support.

I don't care what these 3 women say, the "Pink Power" thing was to try to be a show of force, but it backfired.

 

[Empress1]

3 minutes ago, Starlight925 said:

The 3 women (Clare, Emily, and Becca) are all hurt because their grooms were simply not attracted to them.

So the 3 men (Cam, Brennan, and Austin) couldn't see themselves becoming intimate with their wives.

As a new bride, having your husband turn away from you in bed is hurtful.

They turned that hurt into anger and blame, rather than empathy and support.

There was a moment when Kevin said “sometimes things just don’t work out,” and I kept thinking how different the season would have been if they’d just accepted that. I know it hurts to be rejected, but like… all this because someone just wasn’t that into you?

[Starlight925]

1 minute ago, Empress1 said:

There was a moment when Kevin said “sometimes things just don’t work out,” and I kept thinking how different the season would have been if they’d just accepted that. I know it hurts to be rejected, but like… all this because someone just wasn’t that into you?

Exactly!

Clare and Emily were angry that their husbands weren't attracted, while Becca's core emotion was hurt.

So Clare and Emily used their "Pink Ridiculous Girl Power" to gang up on the men, while Becca spewed the idiotic "trend words" of authentic, true to myself, etc., while crying her almost-black lipstick off.

It's been already pointed out here, but I'll say it again:

I found it hilarious that "lies" were brought up by the women, but when truths came out by the men, the women shunned their words.

Emily to Brennan:  You were planning a double date with Cam!!

Cam to Emily:  Let me set the record straight.  Clare's and my marriage was already over, and as a joke, I pointed to 2 women at a bar and said to Brennan, when this is over, maybe can double date.

Emily to Cam:  YOU PLANNED A DOUBLE DATE WITH MY HUSBAND!

Brennan to Emily:  You made out with an Australian guy at a bar.

Emily to Brennan:  HE kissed ME!!!  (you idiot, kisses are mutual)

Brennan to Emily:   So you still kissed him!!

Emily to Brennan:  I'm done!

  This is exhausting.  I needs a nap.

[LennieBriscoe]

22 minutes ago, Starlight925 said:

The 3 women (Clare, Emily, and Becca) are all hurt because their grooms were simply not attracted to them.

So the 3 men (Cam, Brennan, and Austin) couldn't see themselves becoming intimate with their wives.

As a new bride, having your husband turn away from you in bed is hurtful.

They turned that hurt into anger and blame, rather than empathy and support.

I don't care what these 3 women say, the "Pink Power" thing was to try to be a show of force, but it backfired.

 

I think Clare and Cameron's opinions can be exchanged.

IIRC, Cam was initially attracted to Clare, but she made it very clear very early that she was not similarly attracted, much of which I attribute to her disdain for Cam's job and his lack of ever having had therapy. 

So he backed off and cooled his jets. Never recovered from this. 

ETA:

The experts are falling all over themselves to claim they were misled, scammed, and played, so nothing was their fault.

Edited April 19 by LennieBriscoe

[Katie111]

Anyone notice when they showed the green room for the girls what a complete disaster it was?  It looked like they had let 25 kids just go absolutely wild in there instead of 4 grown women.  Food, clothing and God knows what else was everywhere.  Act like adults and clean up after yourselves!  How much stuff did they really need to bring when they were in their ugly dresses all day? 

Also, in the last segment, Clare was sitting indian style on stage.  Again, are you a 10 year old or an adult?  

 

Also wonder how long filming took?  Austin had time to go all the way home, take a nap and shave off his beard and come back for the last segment?   All in the horrible Denver traffic?  Wonder if maybe it was filmed over two days?  

[Katie111]

Quote

 

I think Clare and Cameron's opinions can be exchanged.

IIRC, Cam was initially attracted to Clare, but she made it very clear very early that she was not similarly attracted, much of which I attribute to her disdain for Cam's job and his lack of ever having had therapy. 

So he backed off and cooled his jets. Never recovered from this. 

ETA:

The experts are falling all over themselves to claim they were misled, scammed, and played, so nothing was their fault.

I wish the contestants could ask questions of the experts.  Like for Austin, "did you think putting me with a jewish girl was a good idea?"   Or the reverse for Brendan.   Or just ask them why they thought they would be a good match.   If Clare likes black guys, why not match her with one.   Or is it that these were not actual dealbreakers when they applied but they turned into dealbreakers when they were not attracted to their spouses.  Maybe Brendan could just ask if they actually thought matching up someone who has never been in a relationship makes sense.  Or matching someone who likes one night stands and lots of drinking with someone who isn't looking for those things.  Or again, did Emily just completely misrepresent herself to the experts?  I would also love Kevin to ask them if they think having them all live in the same building is a positive or a negative.  

[Starlight925]

Yes, @Katie111 , I noticed what a disaster the “Pink Power Struggles” room was.  
  There was an open styrofoam half-eaten salad container on a chair.  Yuck. 
   My teenage nieces are neater than this. 

[sara416]

On 4/17/2024 at 8:45 PM, APK said:

How do these mental health counselors keep their professional credentials? They provide sketchy advice at best. No legitimate mental health counselor, with a Ph.D., would appear on this reality tv show. M.D.'s can be sued for malpractice and loose their privileges to practice medicine, however I'm not sure what regulations a Ph.D. is required to follow.

You license to practice is separate from your credentials. You can be a Ph.D and not have a license. I have my M.Ed and my license to practice is an LPC. If I do something egregious I can have my license revoked but no one can ever take my degree from me. So it is entirely possibly that these people have a Ph.D but do not have an actual license to practice. 

 

[StatisticalOutlier]

So here's what came out of Brennan's mouth:

Brennan:  I felt there was a massive mismatch from the very beginning.  And the hurdles that we encountered very early on I personally could not get over. 

Emily:  What were the hurdles?

Brennan:  When I first saw you I was like, pretty girl, you know, cool, fun, making me feel comfortable.  An hour later I'm talking with your friends and they're telling me that you get ghosted all the time. You love one-night stands. You're selfish.

Emily: I don't think they said I had one-night stands or I'm selfish.

Brennan:  Someone was telling me that.  So I'm already feeling turned off at this point. So the next day, we talk, you have no idea where your money goes. Alarm.

Emily: I make more money than you, OK?

Brennan:  No you don't.

Emily:  Yes I do.

Brennan:  You lied about that.  So that was cool.  That for me is not what I was looking for in my future wife.

Clare [interjecting her opinion for some unknown reason]:  That's fair. That's fair.

Brennan:  So when I heard that I was turned off. 

-------------

This money business is new, right?  But what I find really interesting is that in response, she says (truthfully or not) she makes more money than he does.  Objection, your honor!  Irrelevant!

I noted in the thread for Part 1 that Clare was asked, point blank, if she visited Cam in the hospital and she said "yes."  But actually, she didn't.  When Cam said she hadn't 'visited him, she talked about how she wanted to, and how Cam wouldn't return her calls, and Cam told her she brings bad energy.  That, apparently, equals "yes" when asked if she visited him. 

And Emily did something similar at the beginning of this episode. 

Brennan:  You got caught lying about making out with someone at the bar.  And--

Emily:  I told you the truth about the Australian.

Brennan:  But how many times did I ask, though, before you came clean?

Emily:  I was scared to tell you because I didn't want that to be your easy out.

And these are the two who spend the most time accusing the men of lying.

 

[Empress1]

8 minutes ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

This money business is new, right?  But what I find really interesting is that in response, she says (truthfully or not) she makes more money than he does.  Objection, your honor!  Irrelevant!

I think I remember her saying to him early on that she didn’t budget - like, I think we saw that honeymoon conversation. But I agree: if he wants someone budget-conscious, that has nothing to do with how much she makes. Money is a fundamental compatibility issue. I couldn’t date and REALLY could not marry/join finances with a spender who didn’t budget either.

14 minutes ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

Brennan:  I felt there was a massive mismatch from the very beginning.  And the hurdles that we encountered very early on I personally could not get over. 

This is really the beginning and the end of the story for all the couples, to varying degrees.

[Auntie Anxiety]

One of my favorite parts of the conversation:

Brennan: I don’t find Emily attractive.

Emily: Yes, you do.

Me: What? Emily, stop making a fool out of yourself. A “strong, independent, empowered” woman would say, “That’s okay. I’m not everyone’s cup of tea. Maybe we weren’t such a good match” and call it a day. 🤷‍♀️

[Elizzikra]

Quote

He also described her as draining

I find Emily draining too and I didn't have to live with her.

Quote

 

Brennan: I don’t find Emily attractive.

Emily: Yes, you do.

 

Ugh. I think she believed he found her attractive because he made out with her once. Which - fine, I guess? But you don't really have to be that attracted to make out with someone, especially if you have just married that person at first sight and are expected to try to develop some sort of physical relationship with them. And again, there is a huge difference between thinking someone is, objectively, attractive and actually being attracted to that person. No one on this show ever seems to get that distinction.

Quote

With regards to the suggested sexism of Brennan not being interested in Emily based on her sexual past…if I came on the show as a bride and the experts fixed me up with a groom who had NEVER been in a relationship, and was described as a party boy who had a history of one night stands, (and as best I can recall with Emily, made comments emphasizing that about themself at the wedding), I’d be pretty damn wary of the experts’ choice for me too. 

Fair enough but ... why? Serious question - I'm not posing it just to be argumentative. Everyone has to have a first relationship and sometimes those first relationships lead to marriage. Should they never? I know some that have been really successful for decades. As far as the one night stands, if your (fictional) spouse at first sight had a bunch of them but no serious relationship, is the concern that he would want to continue one night stands once he is in a relationship? Is it a fidelity concern? Would say two one night stands be more acceptable than 50? I am genuinely so curious about this now - not for you, specifically necessarily but what the questions are that people might have generally. And what Brennan's concerns might have been specifically, though it seems there is some feeling that it was less the sex and more the lack of a serious relationship plus other signs of immaturity that bothered Brennan. 

[Chatty Cake]

Emily has been so disdainful towards Brennan, tells him not to look at her and then gets mad that he didn’t react to her sobbing. I don’t think the guys could have said anything to make the ladies happy.

Brennan said Emily hated Claire at first.  I tend to believe him. 

I didn’t realize (or didn’t pay attention) that Michael and Chloe are approaching 40 while the others are closer to or just over 30. They acted more mature about their experience.

I agree with the poster that said Emily, Claire and Lauren were angry while Becca was very hurt. I also saw regret on Austin’s face.

I think they could have canceled the where are they now for this group!

 

[princelina]

11 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

My question is, why does Emily’s sexual past matter so much to Brennan?

I don't think it matters - different things are important to different people and it's the "experts"" job to find those things out and match accordingly.  Instead they peek in their refrigerators and underwear drawers.

9 hours ago, Chatty Cake said:

I started to doubt Cams illness for the first time during this episode. Stress induced at his age? I know it’s possible but he never appeared that stressed to me. 

He was implying that it was marriage related - he even said he had a 'broken heart"🙄. What a tool.

7 hours ago, seacliffsal said:

But, the producers wanted drama-and they got it.  Now they just need to 'own' up to it.  Dr. Pepper sure was on the 'how can we help when you don't tell us the truth?' bandwagon; but what does she tell the casts of other seasons who ask for help and still end up with a disaster?

Yes - it's very annoying to me that even with this train wreck, everyone still goes along with the fiction that the "experts" are so expert at what they do.  I mean, Emily said on camera, before she was even chosen, that what she likes to do is go out and get drunk with her friends.  Now I'm no expert, but I wouldn't pick a woman or man who listed that as their main hobby.  They have picked people in the past who say straight out, "If I'm not attracted to my spouse that's it!" which is antithetical to this entire "experiment" or "process".  Throughout the season it was very obvious certain things were wrong, specifically with Becca/Austin and Emily/Brennan but the "experts" didn't bring them up and only talked about what the couples were saying, which we now know was a lot of crap, but "experts" are allowed to bring up other obvious things!  They suck.

3 hours ago, LennieBriscoe said:

I think Clare and Cameron's opinions can be exchanged.

IIRC, Cam was initially attracted to Clare, but she made it very clear very early that she was not similarly attracted, much of which I attribute to her disdain for Cam's job and his lack of ever having had therapy. 

So he backed off and cooled his jets. Never recovered from this. 

I also think he was there for sooner sexy times and lost interest quickly when they didn't happen!

3 hours ago, Katie111 said:

Or again, did Emily just completely misrepresent herself to the experts?  

No she told us who she was - do they watch none of the footage if they're not involved?

[Auntie Anxiety]

2 minutes ago, Chatty Cake said:

I think they could have canceled the where are they now entire second half of the season for this group!

FTFY

[Empress1]

34 minutes ago, Elizzikra said:

I think she believed he found her attractive because he made out with her once. Which - fine, I guess? But you don't really have to be that attracted to make out with someone, especially if you have just married that person at first sight and are expected to try to develop some sort of physical relationship with them. And again, there is a huge difference between thinking someone is, objectively, attractive and actually being attracted to that person. No one on this show ever seems to get that distinction.

He also could have found her attractive at first and then lost attraction as he got to know her. I think because she’s had casual sex but no relationships, she’s confusing sexual attraction with romantic attraction. They’re not the same (and Brennan wasn’t even attracted to her in any way for more than a day).

34 minutes ago, Elizzikra said:

As far as the one night stands, if your (fictional) spouse at first sight had a bunch of them but no serious relationship, is the concern that he would want to continue one night stands once he is in a relationship? Is it a fidelity concern? Would say two one night stands be more acceptable than 50? 

I do not ask or answer the body count question, so two vs. 50 wouldn’t come up. I’m grown, I date grown men, I assume we’ve had sex with other people before. However, if I were dating a man who’d only had one-night stands, I’d think “fuckboi,” and it would not inspire confidence that he’d be a good partner. It’s a very different way of relating to someone - there’s no compromise required of a one-night stand. (Emily’s “friends” said she struggles with compromise.) You barely have to TALK to a one-night stand. 

[Crashcourse]

5 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

You barely have to TALK to a one-night stand.

Yep.

[Cramps]

33 minutes ago, Elizzikra said:

Fair enough but ... why? Serious question - I'm not posing it just to be argumentative. Everyone has to have a first relationship and sometimes those first relationships lead to marriage. Should they never? I know some that have been really successful for decades. As far as the one night stands, if your (fictional) spouse at first sight had a bunch of them but no serious relationship, is the concern that he would want to continue one night stands once he is in a relationship? Is it a fidelity concern? Would say two one night stands be more acceptable than 50? I am genuinely so curious about this now - not for you, specifically necessarily but what the questions are that people might have generally. And what Brennan's concerns might have been specifically, though it seems there is some feeling that it was less the sex and more the lack of a serious relationship plus other signs of immaturity that bothered Brennan. 

I’m not sure I’m fully following your post, but I’ll do my best to answer why I would feel similar to Brennan. My answer has two parts. 
 

1. Yes, everyone has to have a first relationship, but being married at first sight is probably not the best way or place to have it. It’s an incredibly high pressure situation, so some self-knowledge about yourself in a relationship and some experience with being in relationships would probably make one a lot more likely to succeed. 
 

2. I would not want to enter into a marriage at first sight with a guy who not only didn’t have experience of being in relationships, but was also a party boy. Is he just a f**k boy who wants to be on tv? Does he think he wants a real relationship but really doesn’t? Or did he want more than that all along, but is incapable of it? 
 

—also—maybe Brennan did find Emily attractive, at first. I have certainly become significantly more or less attracted to someone as I got to know them. 

[redpencil]

4 hours ago, Katie111 said:

Also wonder how long filming took?  Austin had time to go all the way home, take a nap and shave off his beard and come back for the last segment?   All in the horrible Denver traffic?  Wonder if maybe it was filmed over two days?  

I don't think it was filmed in Denver. Orion at one point mentioned someone recognizing him on the flight, and Austin said he was going back to the hotel, not home.

2 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

This money business is new, right?  But what I find really interesting is that in response, she says (truthfully or not) she makes more money than he does.  Objection, your honor!  Irrelevant!

I thought that was emblematic of Emily's reactions. Any point from Brennan was met with a counter that was irrelevant and was more about how she's "better" than him (this one, the 8.5 vs. 6 comment, etc.).

[Auntie Anxiety]

29 minutes ago, redpencil said:

I thought that was emblematic of Emily's reactions. Any point from Brennan was met with a counter that was irrelevant and was more about how she's "better" than him (this one, the 8.5 vs. 6 comment, etc.).

Also known as the “No, you are” defense. I’ve heard more cogent arguments on the elementary school playground.

Edited April 19 by Auntie Anxiety

[Meowwww]

When someone shows you who they are, believe them.  Emily is mean and childish. Disrespectful. 
 

[Kimboweena]

7 hours ago, Katie111 said:

Also, in the last segment, Clare was sitting indian style on stage.

Careful, you're going to offend Orion! 🤣

[Gator Stud]

9 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

Fair enough but ... why? Serious question - I'm not posing it just to be argumentative. Everyone has to have a first relationship and sometimes those first relationships lead to marriage. Should they never? I know some that have been really successful for decades. As far as the one night stands, if your (fictional) spouse at first sight had a bunch of them but no serious relationship, is the concern that he would want to continue one night stands once he is in a relationship? Is it a fidelity concern? Would say two one night stands be more acceptable thanngs.  Guy  50?

If you party out in college, people wont care.  But if you at 30 say you like one night stands and have never got a second date, that is a big red flag.  Who wants a spouse that is proud she slept with most of Denver?  Also STDs, especially when she gets drunk and doesn't remember things.  Guys have been called hos too when they act like this, so not sexist.  Emily is just a nasty woman who needs to take the humble position and get some therapy and stop blaming others for her problems.  This is how she acts when someone is not into her? She needs to grow up.

9 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

Would say two one night stands be more acceptable than 50?

Yes, 2 one night stands>50 one night stands, especially if its within one year.

Edited April 20 by Gator Stud

[Starlight925]

This isn't a sexist thing.  As a female, I'd lose interest immediately if my new husband, it turned out, had constant one-night stands.  

If he was also falling down drunk constantly, had an obnoxious friend group (yes, it's about the company you keep), and made weird constant duck faces, I'd be out.

The nerve she has, saying she's an 8.5 but he's a 6 who would never be approached in a bar.  

[Yeah No]

I place most of the blame for this season (and any season's train wrecks) squarely on the shoulders of the producers.  This is by far not the first season we have noticed and said that

1.  The producers seem to deliberately choose people that aren't ready for a committed relationship much less marriage.  Some of them don't even seem sincere going up to the altar.  They talk a good line of shit about how much they want to be married and will not seek a divorce, but in the end do they really?  They seem to engage more relationship sabotage than anything else and in the end show themselves to be either lying or delusional about their intentions.
    
2. They deliberately match people with big deal breakers, whether that be lifestyle, religion, appearance, whatever.  Things that just can't be worked out.  And it's not the experts matching them either or they would never pick these people much less match them with who they're matching them with.  
    
3. They deliberately find people that are very picky, arrogant, selfish or self-absorbed and full of themselves.  People that are completely inflexible or are emotionally immature and over-dramatic and  therefore would create a lot of on-screen drama.

It's every season on this show!  We are all being taken for a ride by this and it's not enjoyable anymore.  They used to slip in a few genuine matches but this time, forget it, they did all of the above and more to create the most toxic season ever.  And this entire cast was used toward that end.  I see all of them as being taken in and used by the show.  It's completely unethical and not at all entertaining in my opinion.

[Yeah No]

2 hours ago, Starlight925 said:

This isn't a sexist thing.  As a female, I'd lose interest immediately if my new husband, it turned out, had constant one-night stands.  

Not wanting to be matched with a "party animal" or someone that is into one night stands to the exclusion of a deeper relationship is not sexist, and is in fact how I would feel, but what could be sexist is not respecting that person because of their lifestyle choices.  If Brennan were working off of a sexist point of view on women where he looked down on her in ways he wouldn't do with a man who had that kind of lifestyle, I'd say that's sexist.  But if he just isn't into that kind of lifestyle himself and doesn't want a spouse that is either that's not what I would call sexist.  Based on the way he acted I think there's reason to suspect him of being sexist but that's my opinion.  I didn't think he treated Emily with very much respect and to me it felt like it was coming from his judgment of her lifestyle.  Unfortunately she was so hurt and insulted by this that she didn't act very respectfully (or mature) in return herself.  I think she is one of those people that can be her own worst enemy and that may be at least one reason why she never gets called back for a second date.  Also she may be picking the wrong guys.  She is probably not ready to meet the "right" guy either and needs therapy to work that all out.  And not with "Clarapist" either.  That kind of "help" is not going to help her AT ALL.

[Yeah No]

23 hours ago, Retired at last said:

And, I agree that Clairapist was the instigator, getting Emily riled up and poor Becca as a follower. The way that they all patted each others' arms and comforted each other was cringey. As long as Clairapist can be in charge, she and Emily will be BFFs. Becca needs to break away and get some counseling to find her lost self-esteem. Lauren and Chloe don't want to play.

I agree that in the pink squad, Clarapist is the ringleader which is why they were all using those trendy "therapy buzzwords" after a while.  She probably fed them to them and they took them on themselves.  I think Emily needs to break away from her too because that "victim solidarity" mindset is not going to do her any good in learning where she goes wrong in finding love.  Granted, she may not have been matched with a guy that liked or respected her but she needs to understand that some of her behavior is not conducive to marriage in general so what does she really expect from any guy that's really serious about a serious relationship?  

As far as Lauren goes, I'm surprised I haven't seen more people surprised at how she seems to have joined in with the pink squad solidarity all down the line.  I don't see her as not wanting to play, in fact just the opposite.  She was there with fangs out ready to skewer the men.  And some of that is OTT and doesn't look very good on her.  I actually expected her to be more like Chloe and not want to be identified with the others on that stuff.

[Elizzikra]

28 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

Not wanting to be matched with a "party animal" or someone that is into one night stands to the exclusion of a deeper relationship is not sexist, and is in fact how I would feel, but what could be sexist is not respecting that person because of their lifestyle choices.  If Brennan were working off of a sexist point of view on women where he looked down on her in ways he wouldn't do with a man who had that kind of lifestyle, I'd say that's sexist.  But if he just isn't into that kind of lifestyle himself and doesn't want a spouse that is either that's not what I would call sexist.  Based on the way he acted I think there's reason to suspect him of being sexist but that's my opinion.  I didn't think he treated Emily with very much respect and to me it felt like it was coming from his judgment of her lifestyle.  Unfortunately she was so hurt and insulted by this that she didn't act very respectfully (or mature) in return herself.  I think she is one of those people that can be her own worst enemy and that may be at least one reason why she never gets called back for a second date.  Also she may be picking the wrong guys.  She is probably not ready to meet the "right" guy either and needs therapy to work that all out.  And not with "Clarapist" either.  That kind of "help" is not going to help her AT ALL.

That is my opinion as well. I think he looked down on Emily and thought she was not worthy of being matched with him.

 

10 hours ago, Gator Stud said:

If you party out in college, people wont care.  But if you at 30 say you like one night stands and have never got a second date, that is a big red flag.  Who wants a spouse that is proud she slept with most of Denver?  Also STDs, especially when she gets drunk and doesn't remember things.  Guys have been called hos too when they act like this, so not sexist.  Emily is just a nasty woman who needs to take the humble position and get some therapy and stop blaming others for her problems.  This is how she acts when someone is not into her? She needs to grow up.

Yes, 2 one night stands>50 one night stands, especially if its within one year.

Why is she “nasty?” Because has had a lot of one night stands (although we don’t know how many she has had; we only know that she has enjoyed the ones she has had). She could have had safe sex and we have no reason to believe that she has STIs. And I don’t see any judgement here at all about the men who took her home (especially if she was so drunk she might not remember what she did), had sex with her and never called her again. Are they as “nasty” as she is?

I agree that people have different values around sex. No problem there. But when words like “nasty” start to come into it, that’s a judgement about someone’s worth and value as a person. I do have a problem with that. 

So if 2 one night stands is better than 50, where is the cut off? What’s the scale. Is “zero” excellent and non-nasty; single digits are ok but start to get a little nasty when you get into the upper reaches and double digits is really nasty territory?

What is really interesting to me is that Emily showed no signs of wanting to continue one night stands after she was married. She didn’t seem to want an open marriage or polyamory or anything like that. So when I wonder why this was an issue for Brennan, I’m coming from a perspective of Emily’s one night stands being something she did when she was single and something that really didn’t directly impact him. She didn’t even know him when this was what she was doing.  It didn’t say anything at all about how she was going to behave in their marriage.

25 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

 

As far as Lauren goes, I'm surprised I haven't seen more people surprised at how she seems to have joined in with the pink squad solidarity all down the line.  I don't see her as not wanting to play, in fact just the opposite.  She was there with fangs out ready to skewer the men.  And some of that is OTT and doesn't look very good on her.  I actually expected her to be more like Chloe and not want to be identified with the others on that stuff.

I am surprised by that as well. Lauren seems to have more common sense than that and I thought she acted a little more immature than I would have anticipated. Plus, while I think that Orion treated her really badly, she only had about two weeks of that bad behavior and then she could have been totally free of him (his multiple offers of “friendship” and “reconciliation” notwithstanding). Her anger seems disproportionate to the length of their relationship.

[princelina]

1 hour ago, Yeah No said:

It's every season on this show!  We are all being taken for a ride by this and it's not enjoyable anymore.  They used to slip in a few genuine matches but this time, forget it, they did all of the above and more to create the most toxic season ever.  And this entire cast was used toward that end.  I see all of them as being taken in and used by the show.  It's completely unethical and not at all entertaining in my opinion.

Since I will never believe a person who shows up on a reality show and says that they never watched the show, I'm assuming they all watched at least a season or 2 to see what they were getting into.  Maybe that's where all of the "optics" stuff came from - seeing how previous people were matched and edited!

1 hour ago, Yeah No said:

As far as Lauren goes, I'm surprised I haven't seen more people surprised at how she seems to have joined in with the pink squad solidarity all down the line.  I don't see her as not wanting to play, in fact just the opposite.  She was there with fangs out ready to skewer the men.  And some of that is OTT and doesn't look very good on her.  I actually expected her to be more like Chloe and not want to be identified with the others on that stuff.

I felt like Lauren started out with the Pink Posse but had a change of heart when she saw how they were acting overall - by the final scenes her body language had her stretching so far in their opposite direction that she was practically in Kevin's lap! 😄

51 minutes ago, Elizzikra said:

I agree that people have different values around sex. No problem there. But when words like “nasty” start to come into it, that’s a judgement about someone’s worth and value as a person. I do have a problem with that. relationship.

I thought the OP meant "nasty" as in her rude mouth and behavior🤷‍♀️

[Maximadc]

3 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

That is my opinion as well. I think he looked down on Emily and thought she was not worthy of being matched with him.

 

Why is she “nasty?” Because has had a lot of one night stands (although we don’t know how many she has had; we only know that she has enjoyed the ones she has had). She could have had safe sex and we have no reason to believe that she has STIs. And I don’t see any judgement here at all about the men who took her home (especially if she was so drunk she might not remember what she did), had sex with her and never called her again. Are they as “nasty” as she is?

I agree that people have different values around sex. No problem there. But when words like “nasty” start to come into it, that’s a judgement about someone’s worth and value as a person. I do have a problem with that. 

So if 2 one night stands is better than 50, where is the cut off? What’s the scale. Is “zero” excellent and non-nasty; single digits are ok but start to get a little nasty when you get into the upper reaches and double digits is really nasty territory?

What is really interesting to me is that Emily showed no signs of wanting to continue one night stands after she was married. She didn’t seem to want an open marriage or polyamory or anything like that. So when I wonder why this was an issue for Brennan, I’m coming from a perspective of Emily’s one night stands being something she did when she was single and something that really didn’t directly impact him. She didn’t even know him when this was what she was doing.  It didn’t say anything at all about how she was going to behave in their marriage.

I am surprised by that as well. Lauren seems to have more common sense than that and I thought she acted a little more immature than I would have anticipated. Plus, while I think that Orion treated her really badly, she only had about two weeks of that bad behavior and then she could have been totally free of him (his multiple offers of “friendship” and “reconciliation” notwithstanding). Her anger seems disproportionate to the length of their relationship.

Brennan doesn't have to explain why it was a turn-off for him or how many times it was too many.
If a guy wipes his nose using his T-shirt, I'm turned off, even if he does it once.
 

[Yeah No]

4 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

Why is she “nasty?” Because has had a lot of one night stands (although we don’t know how many she has had; we only know that she has enjoyed the ones she has had). She could have had safe sex and we have no reason to believe that she has STIs. And I don’t see any judgement here at all about the men who took her home (especially if she was so drunk she might not remember what she did), had sex with her and never called her again. Are they as “nasty” as she is?

I think that was referring to how Emily got verbally nasty on the reunion shows with Brennan and the host.  I agree that she did herself no favors acting like that but she's been through a lot of crap so I'm giving her a little more slack on that than some people might.  I'd be spitting mad if I went through that garbage.  I think some of the anger directed at the men by the "pink posse" is displaced and really should be directed at the show but they can't do that on camera thanks to their NDAs.  

Also, to respond to other posters' comments about why Emily was crying and so upset about a relationship that never really got off the ground - well, she DID marry the guy and probably had high hopes for it working out.  Perhaps she was a bit naive and immature about that (both her and Becca) which is why they were so mortally hurt by the rejection.  I also have to think that perhaps Emily is hypersensitive about relationship stuff which is one reason why she's never had a long term relationship.

4 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

I am surprised by that as well. Lauren seems to have more common sense than that and I thought she acted a little more immature than I would have anticipated. Plus, while I think that Orion treated her really badly, she only had about two weeks of that bad behavior and then she could have been totally free of him (his multiple offers of “friendship” and “reconciliation” notwithstanding). Her anger seems disproportionate to the length of their relationship.

I think two things made Lauren's anger disproportionate to the situation.  First was Orion's continued attempts to make "nice" with her and get her to have some sort of "friendship" or whatever BS he was looking for.  That would have pissed me off no end and intensified my overall anger.  Second was that she allowed herself to be influenced by the group think coming from the rest of the "pink posse".  They only made each other even madder than they would have been otherwise.

[atomic]

Judging by social media, Lauren is still very tight with the Pepto Chicks. They were all at Coachella together this past weekend and Lauren just posted an Instagram story of the rest of the posse sending her flowers for her mother's death anniversary. 

I still like Lauren, and her disgust for them is part of the reason I don't believe the boys are all angels. She does seem to hate Cameron even more than Orion, which I sort of get. Orion is a big turd, but Cameron is the most devious person of that whole cast. He totally backed off when Lauren said not to try her because she's got way more dirt she could spill on him.

It wouldn't surprise me, though, if Emily eventually falls out of favor with the Pepto Chicks. She is just awful in every way and her "friends" before the show didn't even seem to like her very much -- badmouthing her to Brennan at their wedding and even exposing her cheating to him.

Emily was also so sure America would be on her side, but all the comments on her social media are negative and ripping her to shreds. I don't support the vitriolic comments like slut-shaming, but do think she desperately needs a reality check on what a mean girl she is and how obnoxiously she behaves.

Edited April 20 by atomic