S06.E03: Beyond the Sea

[TheOtherOne]

In an alternative 1969, two men on a perilous high-tech mission wrestle with the consequences of an unimaginable tragedy.

[Avaleigh]

I have so many thoughts on this episode. The tension in this was really well done. I felt uneasy from the jump even before the Mansonish cult showed up. The way those theatergoers wanted to touch David was a little creepy. 

I was really surprised how I went from feeling sympathy for David to being annoyed at what an entitled prick he was being. Not backing off when Lana told him she wasn't interested, and continuing to insist that she wanted his attentions and that Cliff would never know--he really went from sympathetic character to raging douchebag in about five minutes of screentime. Then he hits the son for messing up his painting?

This isn't even getting into the murders. I'm shocked by the turn of events. When the episode started, I was convinced that Lana was going to fall for him because everything seemed so chilly between her and Cliff. There was such a contrast in the two marriages at the beginning, I really didn't expect her to stay loyal to Cliff. I initially thought David would bond with her and the son, and Cliff would notice that his family was looking forward to David's visits more than his. 

The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress sounds like an interesting book. I was kind of hoping that we would get some commentary from Lana on whether she liked it or not. I also thought Cliff would notice that she was reading something that David would like. She goes from reading Valley of the Dolls to a sci-fi story, it seems like something her husband might have picked up on. 

Rory Culkin is definitely good at playing a psycho. That scene was horrifying. I actually had to look away. 

Regarding the ending, not only did David kill Cliff's wife and son, but Cliff is probably going to be blamed for the murders if they ever get back to Earth. It's so unfair that David will actually have the chance to start over. He'll never be the same of course, but at least he has a chance to marry and have kids again if he chooses. Not only does he rob Cliff of his family, but he's pretty much guaranteed that Cliff won't be able salvage any sort of life if they ever return. It's beyond cruel considering how Cliff and Lana were so concerned about helping David during his period of mourning. 

All in all though this was my favorite episode so far. I still have two more to go.

[Paloma]

4 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I was really surprised how I went from feeling sympathy for David to being annoyed at what an entitled prick he was being. Not backing off when Lana told him she wasn't interested, and continuing to insist that she wanted his attentions and that Cliff would never know--he really went from sympathetic character to raging douchebag in about five minutes of screentime. Then he hits the son for messing up his painting?

This isn't even getting into the murders. I'm shocked by the turn of events.

I was equally surprised/shocked--from what little we'd seen of David before his family was murdered, he seemed like a genuinely nice guy and not a secret psychopath. After the murders he was traumatized, grieving, and depressed, but those emotions shouldn't have turned him turn into a murderer unless it was to get revenge on the people who murdered his family. It's true that Cliff said some pretty harsh (and untrue, I think) things to David about how Lana felt about David's behavior, but that still seems unlikely to cause David to murder both Lana and Henry, and in such an over-the-top bloody way. 

4 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I was convinced that Lana was going to fall for him because everything seemed so chilly between her and Cliff. There was such a contrast in the two marriages at the beginning, I really didn't expect her to stay loyal to Cliff. I initially thought David would bond with her and the son, and Cliff would notice that his family was looking forward to David's visits more than his. 

Same here. Before Cliff told him that Lana didn't want anything to do with David, my husband and I were expecting David to use Cliff's neural link to stay on Earth permanently and take Cliff's place. I'm not sure if that would have worked--maybe Cliff could have disconnected the neural link when David didn't come back after a reasonable time. And the mission required two people, so if only one person was left to operate and repair things, they might have both died if something went wrong.

 

[Chicago Redshirt]

Meh. I didn't really care for this one at all. It seemed contrived in the extreme.

There is no reason they could not have made David another Replica that would make sense to me, other than the company simply doesn't want to. They presumably have the design from the last time to make a perfect Cliff replica if they wanted to, and even if they made something lesser, it seems like it would not be difficult to come up with some sort of substitute. The fact that Cliff can use David's Replica suggests that it shouldn't be too difficult to replicate a Replica. But because they needed to set the envy plot in motion they tried to handwave it as somehow being difficult.

Whoever is in charge of this mission doesn't offer any support for David? Or support for Cliff in dealing with David? Just losing one's family is a huge source of depression that would likely affect the mission. Having the family killed BECAUSE you're on the mission and feeling whatever the Replica can feel when it's destroyed would obviously be devastating. And then being forced in a situation where there's no respite from being on the ship is another blow. Seems like the agency would attempt to address all this.

I disliked that they played it that Lana was on some level attracted to David.

I'm surprised that David did not pretend to be Cliff to hook up with Lana, or that Cliff didn't pretend to be David-in-Cliff's Replica to explore whether Lana was lying. 

 David going from "Cliff doesn't deserve you" to "I'm going to murder you and your son" again seems like it was just for the plot twist. Yes, he might be upset because he's told that Lana is disgusted by him. Yes, he might want Cliff to feel the same things he felt. But I don't have to like two people being fridged for manpain.

[Avaleigh]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Whoever is in charge of this mission doesn't offer any support for David? Or support for Cliff in dealing with David? Just losing one's family is a huge source of depression that would likely affect the mission. Having the family killed BECAUSE you're on the mission and feeling whatever the Replica can feel when it's destroyed would obviously be devastating. And then being forced in a situation where there's no respite from being on the ship is another blow. Seems like the agency would attempt to address all this.

I enjoyed the episode, but you definitely raise some valid points. 

I agree that it's odd that there weren't any contacts on the ground who were there for support. You'd think that someone would have been in contact to do what they could to keep David from completely spiraling out of control. 

Regarding making another Replica, what would have worked for me would be a quick line where Cliff explains that it'll take a year to make another Replica. They have the technology to do it, it's just going to take awhile. 

One thing I did wonder about was why the families weren't provided security to begin with considering how the public knew about the Replica situation. These Replicas would have been incredibly valuable, but they just leave them around unprotected for anyone to potentially destroy. Even after the danger is demonstrated, Cliff's family isn't given any security? That didn't make any sense. 

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I'm surprised that David did not pretend to be Cliff to hook up with Lana, or that Cliff didn't pretend to be David-in-Cliff's Replica to explore whether Lana was lying. 

I expected both of these developments to happen too, but I'm kind of glad that they didn't do the obvious thing here. I particularly thought that Cliff might pretend to be David to see whether or not she lied.

Regarding Cliff saying those harsh things (some of which were untrue), I kept thinking, 'Dude, what are you doing? You still have to be in a confined space with this guy for the next three plus years. This isn't helping.' Did he honestly think Cliff wouldn't respond in some way? He's incredibly depressed and potentially suicidal. My initial thought was that David would destroy the key they used to activate the Replica so that they'd both be miserable for the rest of the mission. 

[luckyroll3]

I definitely thought David was planning to kill Cliff and then he would take over Cliff's replica and pretend to be him, so him murdering Cliff's family was a definite surprise. And then him just being like "well I guess you just gotta deal with it now just like me...." Oooh child. Cliff has more restraint than I do.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Especially because David made it seem like Cliff murdered his own family, and there is little chance for him to be able to clear his own name.

Given Cliff's obvious anger at even just the notion of David hitting on Lana, that he didn't immediately kill David on finding out that David murdered his wife and son is hard to put together. 

Maybe it is a sign that Cliff is actually as detached from them as David was saying all along.

[Brn2bwild]

Thought Aaron Paul gave a really good performance, both low key and intense.  I kept expecting David to kill Cliff in order to occupy his replica all the time, and was convinced Cliff would end up stuck outside the ship until he ended up spiraling out into space like the astronaut in 2001.  I'm glad they didn't take that route, but then again, it would have been marginally better than the ending we got.

ETA: I did get a small laugh during that scene David as Cliff and Cliff's wife went into town.  They were trying to pass the town off as American midwest with a flag and everything, but to me it looked like such a typical English town with quaint old buildings and cobblestones.  Maybe they did film in an American town, but my guess is that this was filmed in the UK somewhere.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Brn2bwild

[Paloma]

13 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Maybe it is a sign that Cliff is actually as detached from them as David was saying all along.

Good point! There was a clear contrast between the warm and loving relationship David had with his family and the cool (detached) relationship Cliff had with his wife and son. Cliff did not show any affection toward his wife, and he was strict and not particularly affectionate with his son. In fact, I remember being surprised to see him being affectionate toward the dog in the house (I forget when that happened but think it was in one of the later scenes)--it just seemed out of character. Or was that scene when it was really David appearing as Cliff? I can't remember.

[Lady Calypso]

So, although this episode could drag a bit at times, it felt very Black Mirror.  It really had a lot to say and I love the more ambiguity and darkness of the episode. It was very tough to watch at times because, damn, David's entire family being killed, having to watch, and then having his replica burned? No wonder he lost it. 

Aaron Paul did a great job portraying Cliff AND David. There really was a difference between Cliff and David's relationships with their families. And, yeah, Cliff seemed more detached from them, almost afraid to get close, but is it because he's always been like that or because of his replica? I guess Lana did say she felt like she had her old husband when David was being intimate with her, which seems to hint toward the latter.

I also thought David was just gonna steal Cliff's life, but they established early on that the ship had to be run by both of them so if he had stolen Cliff's life, he would have had to kill Cliff, which would have ensured his death as well. But it seemed like he was too far broken from his family's murders to really be able to be saved.

I liked the topics explored, as well. Toxic masculinity, in particular, was shown in both men, which could have been explored even more. The cult stuff could have REALLY been expanded on as well, because they didn't like the replica of David, which is an interesting perspective, but was barely touched upon and only used as a way to get to the main plot of the episode.

I actually think this episode would have benefitted from a longer run-time. It had so much interesting stuff to say, and did most of it rather well, but it felt like they needed more time to properly explore different aspects. Cliff and Lana's relationship, for example, needed more exploration. 

I didn't love the ending, though I support the message it was sending.

But overall, might be my favourite episode of season 6 so far. 

[catsitter]

Unfortunately the plot reminded me a lot of Stargate: Universe.

[Shaynaa]

Not really a fan.  As soon as Lana suggested David use the link I knew he would develop a thing for her and guessed Lama was unlikely to survive the episode although I figured Cliff would kill her.

I guess not involving Houston/Mission Control was to keep the characters so alone and isolated but it was weird as hell that David could watch his family's funeral from space but nobody from altNASA even checked up on him. 

I also got For All Mankind if it went completely dystopian vibes from this.

[SourK]

This show is weirdly preoccupied with the idea that amazing technologies are going to be invented and then used to cuckhold some random guy.

On 6/16/2023 at 8:56 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

I'm surprised that David did not pretend to be Cliff to hook up with Lana, or that Cliff didn't pretend to be David-in-Cliff's Replica to explore whether Lana was lying. 

 

David going from "Cliff doesn't deserve you" to "I'm going to murder you and your son" again seems like it was just for the plot twist. Yes, he might be upset because he's told that Lana is disgusted by him. Yes, he might want Cliff to feel the same things he felt. But I don't have to like two people being fridged for manpain.

Agree. One of my main thoughts about this setup was, "She has no way to verify who's who," and I actually kept thinking "We're going to cut back to the ship and find out David murdered Cliff," and then it never happened. But that's because I made the mistake of thinking about the story from Lana's POV and what would be the horror scenario for her. I should have remembered that that wouldn't matter, because she's just the thing these guys are fighting over.

FWIW, for most of the episode, I also found it excessive that David's whole family got murdered by a weird cult we never saw again who, like, turned themselves in the next day. I was like, "Why did they die like that??" And then it turned out the reason is, because that's the only scene horrible enough to explain why David also kills a bunch of people. But, like, why did any of them have to die? What's this story even about?

Is the moral "Don't be nice to your sad coworker because he'll kill your wife?" I don't get it.

[Hanahope]

I know self preservation is a strong instinct, but I’d find it impossible to work with someone who just murdered my family.  I’d be inclined to sabotage the space ship.  

[SHD]

I love all the points made so far and I too thought the story was going many of the ways others (incorrectly) predicted.

I was horrified that Cliff would go out on those repair outings untethered. 

Rory Culkin was like a space age Manson. Someone above asked why the family had to die at all and I guess the point is that even in the future there will be evil people who kill just because.

[Avaleigh]

1 hour ago, Hanahope said:

I know self preservation is a strong instinct, but I’d find it impossible to work with someone who just murdered my family.  I’d be inclined to sabotage the space ship.  

In addition to wanting to kill him for murdering his family, there's also the fact that David is probably going to get away with it because nobody knew that David was using Cliff's replica. They'll all assume that he killed his family and when they return, David will probably get to walk free while Cliff is the one punished for a crime he didn't commit. Not only that but David will probably get the hero treatment if he returns. Cliff has every incentive to want to kill this guy. He has nothing to lose. 

[Hanahope]

If Cliff wants to live, he should do what happened to David.  Douse the house with gasoline, then set the place on fire, burn the bodies, including his replica.  The cops will just assume a Manson copycat found him and his family.  
 

[HC87]

I really dug how they made this ep sort of a "retro sci-fi" circa late '60s Manson murders, "2001" etc Thought was a cool choice.

Aaron Paul was awesome as usual. My favorite ep of this season easily. 

[Racj82]

The moment they floated the idea of the guys switching places, I kept saying, It's a trap! In my head. Little did I know that I was right. I did not know that it would be one sidea. Which I like.

[Racj82]

On 6/17/2023 at 9:11 PM, SourK said:

This show is weirdly preoccupied with the idea that amazing technologies are going to be invented and then used to cuckhold some random guy.

Agree. One of my main thoughts about this setup was, "She has no way to verify who's who," and I actually kept thinking "We're going to cut back to the ship and find out David murdered Cliff," and then it never happened. But that's because I made the mistake of thinking about the story from Lana's POV and what would be the horror scenario for her. I should have remembered that that wouldn't matter, because she's just the thing these guys are fighting over.

FWIW, for most of the episode, I also found it excessive that David's whole family got murdered by a weird cult we never saw again who, like, turned themselves in the next day. I was like, "Why did they die like that??" And then it turned out the reason is, because that's the only scene horrible enough to explain why David also kills a bunch of people. But, like, why did any of them have to die? What's this story even about?

Is the moral "Don't be nice to your sad coworker because he'll kill your wife?" I don't get it.

The point

Letting anyone this much into your life and home is dangerous.

Your life is almost always more valuable and desirable to someone else even if you don't feel or understand that.

What I like about this story is that it took a lot of tropes and turned them on their head.

In another show or movie, the wife in a cold marriage falling for the artistic man who lost his family would have just been played straight. Realistically, that would make all but one of the people here shitty but we are expected to root for them.

This is ultimately the story a man not just trying to take a another man's life but also a man literally just trying to insert the holes he needed filled. He probably used some the same playbook to get his wife. We know he initiates intimacy some way at least.

[iMonrey]

This definitely felt more like a Black Mirror episode than Loch Henry. The premise was similar to Season 2's "Be Right Back" where the woman was able to make a replica of her dead husband.

Apparently I'm not the only one who sort of expected David to murder Cliff so he could take over his life on earth. I know they made a point of saying running the space capsule was a 2-man operation, but clearly it could run on autopilot for most of the week since the astronauts only woke up on Fridays, or if there were some sort of emergency. So David would have been able to assume Cliff's life for as long as he could keep the capsule running on his own.

And truthfully that's the ending I would have preferred. Maybe the show just wanted to subvert our expectations but the murder ending just didn't make a whole lot of sense to me and left me unsatisfied.

Overall it was an acting tour de force for Aaron Paul, at any rate.

Quote

Even after the danger is demonstrated, Cliff's family isn't given any security? That didn't make any sense. 

Cliff said they did offer to give them a security detail but he felt like they didn't need it because they were nowhere near California and were living in a remote area. It was still stupid to refuse it though because obviously the locals in town all knew where they lived so it wouldn't be hard to find them.

Quote

I remember being surprised to see him being affectionate toward the dog in the house (I forget when that happened but think it was in one of the later scenes)--it just seemed out of character. Or was that scene when it was really David appearing as Cliff? I can't remember.

That was after Cliff apologized to his wife, and that scene was meant to show us he was trying to make more of an effort with his family. I think he was playing with both the dog and his son.

Quote

I guess not involving Houston/Mission Control was to keep the characters so alone and isolated but it was weird as hell that David could watch his family's funeral from space but nobody from altNASA even checked up on him.

It's possible they did and they just didn't show us that. But "therapy" wasn't really a thing back in 1969, especially for men. Men were generally just expected to suck it up. And altNASA may have just  told Cliff to keep an eye on him and that was the extent of it.

Quote

In addition to wanting to kill him for murdering his family, there's also the fact that David is probably going to get away with it because nobody knew that David was using Cliff's replica.

Cliff can simply tell them David was using his replica. Clearly it's possible to do so and it would actually make more sense than Cliff killing them all. He just has to explain that David went nuts and wanted Cliff to experience the same thing he was going through.

[Hanahope]

5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

He just has to explain that David went nuts and wanted Cliff to experience the same thing he was going through.

except its not the same thing at all.  David's family was killed by outsiders, whereas Cliff's family was killed by David.  David doesn't have to spend the next 2-4 years with his family's murderer 24/7.

[cmfran]

One thing I kept wondering: why didn't they use the replicas on the mission, and keep the humans on earth? It seems more efficient since the replicas don't need to eat/sleep, and no murderous hippies would think it's a crime against nature or whatever. The thing about the humans only working on Fridays didn't make much sense to me, so maybe I missed some explanation there.

[sadie]

Why didn’t they come up with a safety word so the wife would know for sure whether it was Cliff and not David? It would have made a good moment for the wife to realize David was saying he was Cliff and her realization that he was lying and about to do her harm?
 

And good call CMFRAN? Why didn't they send the droids to space to work one whole day a week? 

[tennisgurl]

That definitely feels like the most classic Black Mirror episode so far this season, I really liked it. The reto futuristic alternate 60s aesthetic was really cool and the performances were all great, especially from Aaron Paul. There was so much going on that I really wanted the episode to go even longer, and this is already one of the longest episodes of the season. I wanted more about the anti technology Manson cult, more about Cliff and Lana's relationship, and more build up to how David went from nice family man to bloody murderer, but I like that we were left with a lot to think about. Is the cult just a bunch of deranged outliers or is there controversy around using these robots in general society, just ones that wouldn't go so far? Or are most people like the people in the theater, curious and a bit intrusive? Was Cliff always so cold and distant or is this a more recent development because of the situation? It seems like Cliff is just naturally someone who is rather stoic and prefers isolation, but outgoing Lana is in love with him and talks at the end like things used to be warmer in their family. Was David really falling for Lana or was he just trying to use her to recreate his old life? He basically did the same dance with her that he did with his wife before they died, I could see him just wanting to start over again and then fully lost it when he realized that this second chance was impossible. 

It really does seem bizarre that Ground Control didn't provide more support to David after he went through something so traumatic, his whole family was horribly slaughtered while he could just watch as a direct result of his mission, his robot body was burnt alive while he was inside, and now he's stuck in space for long periods of time alone, what did they think would happen? Are they surprised at all that he snapped? I know that its the 60s and that can explain some things, like Cliff not thinking its a big deal to smack his kid sometimes, but even in the 60s I would think that they would give him at least some kind of therapist or ways to make things a little less awful. 

I felt really bad for Lana and her son even before they were murdered, they both seemed so lonely and sad out there on their own. Cliff didn't even want them to meet their neighbors. Their son especially just seemed to spend the whole episode alone and sad while his parents dealt with all this other stuff. 

Rory Culkin was a great Manson figure, that whole sequence where the Manson Family types broke into the house and killed David's family was so creepy, I knew that something was going to go wrong with David's family but that was just so brutal. 

Like most everyone, I thought that David would kill Cliff to steal his life, that Cliff's family would start preferring him, that he would start pretending to be Cliff to live his life, but I guess kudos for going in another direction. Cliff really should not have pushed David so hard, no matter how understandably pissed he was and how shitty David was with Lana. This is a guy who is clearly deeply damaged, unstable, possibly suicidal, and just told you he has nothing to lose, plus your stuck with him in space for four more years, you probably want to have a bit more tact. I think both men hit a nerve, David about how Cliff has a family that he takes for granted and Cliff for how David isn't going to be with Lana and things went wrong from there.

[Chicago Redshirt]

40 minutes ago, cmfran said:

One thing I kept wondering: why didn't they use the replicas on the mission, and keep the humans on earth? It seems more efficient since the replicas don't need to eat/sleep, and no murderous hippies would think it's a crime against nature or whatever. The thing about the humans only working on Fridays didn't make much sense to me, so maybe I missed some explanation there.

I would fanwank it that it is better for the mission to have the physical bodies on the ship. That way, if something goes wrong with the link/the replicas, the mission can still continue with the physical bodies doing the work. It seems to me almost by definition, the replica technology could not have been tested for the length of the time of the mission, the distance away from Earth, etc. etc.

Also, I would think that there would be a need to adjust to things on the fly such that it would behoove having the real people in space and closer to the action. And I hate to be cynical, but people caring about their physical bodies might mean that they would be more attentive than if the welfare of just their replicas at stake if something goes wrong with the mission.

Presumably, the replicas can't do anything without a conscious mind guiding them, so the lack of the physical needs of the replica don't matter when the real person will still need to eat/sleep/etc.

My impression was that they normally would stagger the time off, so that there was always at least one astronaut awake and available to take care of ship's duties. So it's not that the humans would only work on Fridays, it was that Friday was the start of an overlap period between the two. David (say) would be on duty Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, while Cliff would be on duty Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. 

[cmfran]

50 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I would fanwank it that it is better for the mission to have the physical bodies on the ship. That way, if something goes wrong with the link/the replicas, the mission can still continue with the physical bodies doing the work. It seems to me almost by definition, the replica technology could not have been tested for the length of the time of the mission, the distance away from Earth, etc. etc.

Also, I would think that there would be a need to adjust to things on the fly such that it would behoove having the real people in space and closer to the action. And I hate to be cynical, but people caring about their physical bodies might mean that they would be more attentive than if the welfare of just their replicas at stake if something goes wrong with the mission.

Presumably, the replicas can't do anything without a conscious mind guiding them, so the lack of the physical needs of the replica don't matter when the real person will still need to eat/sleep/etc.

My impression was that they normally would stagger the time off, so that there was always at least one astronaut awake and available to take care of ship's duties. So it's not that the humans would only work on Fridays, it was that Friday was the start of an overlap period between the two. David (say) would be on duty Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, while Cliff would be on duty Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. 

 

That does make sense. And I'm guessing they didn't abort the mission after the initial tragedy because they were already 2 years into the mission. If it would have taken 2 years to return to Earth, that's still a very long time to wait around to get back. And NASA had undoubtedly invested billions in this mission.

[Paloma]

55 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Was David really falling for Lana or was he just trying to use her to recreate his old life? He basically did the same dance with her that he did with his wife before they died, I could see him just wanting to start over again and then fully lost it when he realized that this second chance was impossible. 

Although David was probably at least somewhat attracted to Lana, I'm sure that he was trying to recreate his old life. I did notice (and didn't like) that he did the same dance and style of seduction with Lana as he had done with his wife, but it wasn't until I read your comment that I realized why he did that.

[Mr. R0b0t]

Def loved the premise, although I would like to have seen it executed differently.  I think it would have been more interesting to

Spoiler

have the Manson-ish family get away with it and David become obsessed with vengeance at the expense of Cliff's solemn existence.  

 

[millennium]

It was never going to end well.  Even if David didn't kill Cliff's family, Cliff could never go back to them.   Because human nature being what it is, how could Cliff ever again trust that his unprotected physical body would be safe alone in the spaceship with a desperate man who wants to steal his wife and his life?   For his own safety, Cliff would have to destroy his tag to eliminate the possibility of anyone having access to his replica (thus destroying the temptation) and then remain on the station with David for the next four years

On 6/20/2023 at 11:30 AM, tennisgurl said:

Like most everyone, I thought that David would kill Cliff to steal his life, that Cliff's family would start preferring him, that he would start pretending to be Cliff to live his life, but I guess kudos for going in another direction.

It was feeling like that for awhile, reminding me of Tales From the Loop. 

 

[Kel Varnsen]

On 6/20/2023 at 10:11 AM, cmfran said:

One thing I kept wondering: why didn't they use the replicas on the mission, and keep the humans on earth? It seems more efficient since the replicas don't need to eat/sleep, and no murderous hippies would think it's a crime against nature or whatever. 

That really annoyed me to. Because if you can figure out lifelike robots and brain transfer through space then having the robots on the ship makes way more sense. Not to mention if you have that much advanced technology (including artificial gravity) why is your space ship crew only 2 people?

I saw David become obsessed with Lana the minute they suggested body sharing, although I really thought he was going to kill Cliff. But between how obvious that was and the robots not being on the ship thing, this was my least favourite BM episode in a long time.

[DoctorAtomic]

I'm all for streaming to not have to adhere to time constraints of broadcast and cable tv, but I'm not sure this needed 80 minutes either. Not that Aaron Paul didn't knock it out of the park. I also liked the overall solitude. I've said plenty of times that tv can be way overwritten. Just let the actors act. 

I'm not sure why making another replica was not on the table or the what technological reason was. I know they gave some lip service to it, but it seemed thin. 

Unhinged Paul (as Cliff) in the barn was strong. I felt bad for the wife. She's being pulled in two directions from the same person. Is there any reason she couldn't get a job in town to occupy her time? I don't even know where they were. 

It seems like putting the astronauts in a Junipero simulation would have been safer. They're interacting with real people (who were murdered) while they are effectively unkillable. 

It also seems highly unsecure that you only need to put the card in the slot to 'go back'. They don't have 2FA in the Black Mirror world? 

Well, they fooled me. I figured David was going to leave Cliff out to die and take his place. That's a long walk for 80 minutes. 

I think I would have preferred David and Cliff switching off to go all Death Wish on the cult instead. 

On 6/17/2023 at 3:50 PM, catsitter said:

Unfortunately the plot reminded me a lot of Stargate: Universe.

Don't remind me. We had quite the discussion back in the day.

[Kel Varnsen]

11 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I'm not sure why making another replica was not on the table or the what technological reason was. I know they gave some lip service to it, but it seemed thin. 

Considering how long the episode was I am not sure why they couldn't have thrown in an extra line or two to better explain why they couldn't build a new robot. Because even a super basic non-lifelike robot would be a huge improvement for David. And all it would have taken to clarify it would have been a line about how they can build a new one, but for the initial robot-human brain pairing they need to be in the same room.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Yesh, this episode could've been 20 minutes shorter without losing much context.

David was scum just for trying to take over Cliff's life, but was he actually going to sexually assault Cliff's wife? I don't understand why she didn't immediately tell Cliff what happened.

Cliff understandably reacted by getting obnoxious in David's face but he also overplayed his hand. I saw him as kind of naive on top of being a scared jerk.

Did not see that ending coming. Guess NASA didn't do sufficient psych evaluations on these guys. Or perhaps being replicas only worked as long as there are no problems back on Earth. (Ditto comments upthread, I too was surprised the astronauts' homes weren't better protected from potential intruders.) Also, once Cliff's family was murdered too why wouldn't NASA have aborted the mission?

My favorite comment from reddit:

Quote

It’s Westworld all over again for Aaron Paul.

[PurpleTentacle]

It's a bit weird that this was set so lon ago, in like what, the 60s? That technology would feel more at home in the future. I wonder what the reason was? Maybe mental health not being much of a thing? Otherwise you'd except 20 therapists being all over the guy, after his family got slaughtered.

It didn't ring quite true that they couldn't make him another replica, if you can just use the one of another person. Avatar had a better explaination.

Letting him run around with another persons replica seemed like a recipe for desaster from the start.

But good, suspensfull episode.

[PurpleTentacle]

On 6/16/2023 at 5:06 PM, Avaleigh said:

Regarding making another Replica, what would have worked for me would be a quick line where Cliff explains that it'll take a year to make another Replica. They have the technology to do it, it's just going to take awhile. 

Yeah, that would have been good.

On 6/16/2023 at 5:06 PM, Avaleigh said:

One thing I did wonder about was why the families weren't provided security to begin with considering how the public knew about the Replica situation. These Replicas would have been incredibly valuable, but they just leave them around unprotected for anyone to potentially destroy. Even after the danger is demonstrated, Cliff's family isn't given any security? That didn't make any sense. 

This episode does have quite a few holes, doesn't it?

On 6/18/2023 at 3:11 AM, SourK said:

Agree. One of my main thoughts about this setup was, "She has no way to verify who's who,"

I would have agreed on a passphrase. It was weird that they didn't come up with one.

On 6/20/2023 at 4:11 PM, cmfran said:

One thing I kept wondering: why didn't they use the replicas on the mission, and keep the humans on earth? It seems more efficient since the replicas don't need to eat/sleep, and no murderous hippies would think it's a crime against nature or whatever. The thing about the humans only working on Fridays didn't make much sense to me, so maybe I missed some explanation there.

My solution would be "the connection can be spotty during solar storms and such and that is the exact situation when you need somebody to monitor the ship". But that is really something the writers should have told us.

On 6/23/2023 at 4:49 AM, Kel Varnsen said:

but for the initial robot-human brain pairing they need to be in the same room.

See, that wouldn't have worked, as you can obviously use somebody else's robot.

 

[Kel Varnsen]

2 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

See, that wouldn't have worked, as you can obviously use somebody else's robot.

Then you can make it where the robot is paired to the bed thing the people lie in and that has to be done when they are in the same room. Since David had to use Cliff's bed to link to his robot body.

[PurpleTentacle]

36 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Then you can make it where the robot is paired to the bed thing the people lie in and that has to be done when they are in the same room. Since David had to use Cliff's bed to link to his robot body.

That seems like a stretch, too. I think the best solution would be "Building a new one would take a year. In the state he's in, he might not make it that long and then I'm fucked, too."

That still leaves the question why they didn't have spares in the first place, but I don't think you can get around that one anyway. We just have to accept that NASA is staffed by a bunch of dumbasses in this universe, I guess.

[Kel Varnsen]

3 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

That seems like a stretch, too. I think the best solution would be "Building a new one would take a year. In the state he's in, he might not make it that long and then I'm fucked, too."

Not really though I don't think. Since David couldn't jump into either robot from his bed. As for the robots taking to long, they could have just built him some kind of basic prototype that wasn't a human replica, so that at least he could have some communication with someone back home.

7 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

We just have to accept that NASA is staffed by a bunch of dumbasses in this universe, I guess.

It seems like everyone is a dumbass back home. I mean they have super life like robots that run on some magic power source. Plus the ability to run space missions that are years long and they have the brain transfer thing. But everyone is driving the same crappy cars and watching the same crappy tvs as they were in our world at the time.

[DoctorAtomic]

For about 25 minutes or so, I kept wondering why the astronauts were going back in time. I didn't realize the present was 1969 or whatever. 

[Madding crowd]

Aaron Paul was excellent as always in this but the episode felt kind of long to me. I didn’t understand why it was set in the 1960’s unless it was so we wouldn’t expect any sort of counseling for David but there was counseling during that time. It seemed obvious that being able to just use a card to transfer your consciousness is not safe and could be abused by your partner.

I would have expected Cliff to keep his bosses aware of David’s state of mind and even make them aware of his loaning out his link to help David out. If the ship required two people to work it, the people on the ground would put significant effort into maintaining their mental and physical health. Like many of you, I expected David to kill Cliff somehow and take over his life. Good episode but one where you know something bad will happen from the beginning.

[Kel Varnsen]

1 minute ago, Madding crowd said:

Aaron Paul was excellent as always in this but the episode felt kind of long to me. I didn’t understand why it was set in the 1960’s unless it was so we wouldn’t expect any sort of counseling for David

I think part of it was also that back in the 60's astronauts were legitimate celebrities. Like if I saw an astronaut today in a movie theatre they would just be another person.

3 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

If the ship required two people to work it, the people on the ground would put significant effort into maintaining their mental and physical health

If the ship requires two people to work it, the smart move would be to have more than 2 people on it. Because even though you aren't going to catch some contagious illness, what is the contingency plan if one of the guys slips and hits his head, or has a heart attack or some other emergency health issue.

[DoctorAtomic]

Even just a sprained arm, and you can't go out on a walk to make repairs. 

[Capricasix]

4 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

4 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

 

I think part of it was also that back in the 60's astronauts were legitimate celebrities. Like if I saw an astronaut today in a movie theatre they would just be another person.

I don’t know - if I saw Chris Hadfield in a movie theatre, I would fangirl a little bit! 😄

This ep reminded me a little bit of Behind Her Eyes.

[MagnusHex]

Meh. The ending was kinda forced. Went up to eleven abruptly. I thought he had merely just secretly went to apologize to his wife or something, but that ending felt like it came out of nowhere just for the shock factor, especially since there's very little to implicate that David turned into a psychopath.

All the time, it also felt like a soap opera. Felt like I was watching a poor man's version of Mad Men, especially given the time period. They also used the '60s poorly. I had thought that the tragedy was relevant to some historic event since MLK was killed just a year prior to '69, or the Vietnam War even. What a letdown.

5/10 Felt like I wasted a morning watching this.

[Amarsir]

Well-acted. And the premise of taking over someone's likeness had a lot of potential.  My problems in ascending order:

1. If this technology existed, there would be lots of applications on Earth before it was used on astronauts. It wouldn't be that novel anymore.
2. It would make vastly more sense to keep the real people on earth and send their avatars out into space. There was a line early on about "the human experience" but if it's just about bodies in space that's space station stuff you test in near-earth orbit.
3. If a mission requires 2 people simultaneously, you definitely definitely don't send just 2.
4. There's too much conflict between "We can't make a new avatar" and "You can use someone else's." I can suspend disbelief for one or the other, but not both.
5. As everyone else has pointed out, there would be a ton of ground crew and handlers to help Josh Hartnett through a tragedy. In fact I think I read that during the Apollo missions the families had established go-betweens specifically so that if bad news had to be delivered it would come from someone they knew.
6. The episode dragged on way too long. As soon as Kate Mara said "Let him use your link" we all knew what the conflict would be. Not how it would resolve, like whether she would be interested or there would be false pretenses. But we knew there'd be a love triangle. Yet it took 40 minutes for that to come to a head.

They could have trimmed out some of the sadness and painting scenes to fit in a little more plausibility. And I didn't love the resolution, but Black Mirror always wants to surprise so that's OK.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Amarsir

[shrewd.buddha]

On 6/17/2023 at 9:11 PM, SourK said:

This show is weirdly preoccupied with the idea that amazing technologies are going to be invented and then used to cuckhold some random guy.

This.  Really, this is the sole purpose as to why all the circumstances were contrived to have a specific situation and desired outcome:
Cliff and David have no interaction or supervision from NASA (or whoever).  Even after David's family is murdered.
The avatars are perfectly lifelike, down to facial stubble and skin texture. They appear to even have sweat glands and don't feel like plastic when people touch them.
Despite the level of other technology looking like the late '60's, scientists have created these robots as well as the technology to broadcast immediate sensory feedback from astronauts in deep space. (sight, hearing, touch, smell? taste?)
They also seem to have discovered the secret of artificial gravity for spaceships. (a common sci-fi cheat)
Cliff and his wife make no plans to make sure she can identify who is controlling the avatar.

There also seems to be  an attempt to make some point about the men of this particular time having a pissing contest over "their" homes, "their" children, "their" wives.  When David pulls out the chair for Cliff to sit with him at the end, it was as if he was saying "I guess we're in the same boat now."

Are we, the audience, supposed to think Cliff cares more about self preservation than avenging his family?  That Cliff wouldn't tell his employers what happened, no matter the ability to prove it?  That Cliff wouldn't kill David at his first opportunity and burn the whole space mission to the ground? 

It was understanable that Cliff could be weirded out by the avatar situation and not feel comfortable being inimate with his wife. 
Too bad the level of mental health care didn't match the level of robot technology during that time :-(  
 

Edited July 30, 2023 by shrewd.buddha
grammar / spelling

[Dobian]

On tonight's episode of Astronauts Behaving Badly...

I don't understand why this is set in an alternate 1969.  Trying to emulate For All Mankind?  We obviously don't have the technology even today to create perfect human replicas that you can link your mind into, though we are making big advances on the android front.  Why didn't they set this story in the near future like they do for so many Black Mirror episodes?

Again with the 60's, we see David and his family watching Chitty Chitty Bang Bang at the movies.  That's about it for the 60's cultural references.  So what's the point of putting the story in this time period?

Why is communication with NASA so completely absent?  They live on their own on the space station and return to their mechanical bodies at home.  I would fully expect that they would be stationed at NASA and on every return visit go through a debriefing and various tests.  Families could visit them there.

Since they are allowed to live at home, I would expect security to be provided, which of course would have made the Manson Family invasion less likely to succeed.

Speaking of the Marilyn Manson gang, these snowflakes looked like they couldn't subdue a twelve-year-old girl, let alone a grown man.  Yet David couldn't even land a single swing with his baseball bat.  And considering he is, of course, in a mechanical body, wouldn't he be a lot stronger and less impervious to pain and injury than a human body?

After David's family is murdered, Cliff and his family would be either brought to the base or there would be 24-hour security at his farmhouse.

Also, if they live at home, they wouldn't be allowed to roam far from their link station in the event of an emergency requiring immediate response, like a fire.

That said, I agree with those above that you leave the real astronauts on Earth and have the replicas in space, for obvious reasons.

What the episode did well was the whole personal dynamic between the two astronauts and Aaron Paul's wife.  She was being neglected by Cliff, and David fills a need she has.  But there is clearly something off about him because of the tragedy he went through.  When he tells her that he sees the way she looks at him, and she replies that she isn't looking at him and David realizes he is in Cliff's form and that's who she really needs, we can see his devastation.  Cliff doubles down on this when he lies to David about what his wife said about him.

Great twist at the end...or was it?  I thought David might kill himself or kill Cliff (then take over as "Cliff" back on Earth, since NASA doesn't appear to keep tabs on these guys in space).  I didn't expect him to do *that*.  That's complete psychotic break territory, and I don't know if they successfully showed that in the preceding scenes.  I would also expect Cliff to kill David in his sleep.

Edited August 7, 2023 by Dobian

[PurpleTentacle]

On 7/27/2023 at 11:03 AM, Amarsir said:

It would make vastly more sense to keep the real people on earth and send their avatars out into space. There was a line early on about "the human experience" but if it's just about bodies in space that's space station stuff you test in near-earth orbit.

I can excuse that with the connection being possibly spotty, so you need the real people up there, in case something that needs immediate attention happens, when the connection is down. Would have been nice to have a line stating that though.

Hard agree on everything else you said.

[PurpleTentacle]

On 7/30/2023 at 1:39 AM, shrewd.buddha said:

They also seem to have discovered the secret of artificial gravity for spaceships. (a common sci-fi cheat)

"This is a perfect replica of an ancient bajoran ship. Except I installed a gravity net, because I get sick in zero gravity. No it's not because zero gravity isn't in the budget, shut up Jake" - Captain Benjamin Sisko

On 8/7/2023 at 3:15 AM, Dobian said:

Speaking of the Marilyn Manson gang, these snowflakes looked like they couldn't subdue a twelve-year-old girl, let alone a grown man.  Yet David couldn't even land a single swing with his baseball bat.  And considering he is, of course, in a mechanical body, wouldn't he be a lot stronger and less impervious to pain and injury than a human body?

Maybe the connection is constraint by the speed of light and so he is always a few seconds behind? That would explain why he was so bad at swinging a bat. Wasn't shown anywhere else though.

 

 

Edited August 11, 2023 by PurpleTentacle