S04.E09: Church and State

[Haleth]

Wow.  That was so tense.  Each of the 3 younger Roy siblings is trying so hard to fill their father's shoes but no one comes close to Logan's confidence and stature, and probably competence.  They are all poor replicas.  Everyone else can see it but the three are racing and scrapping and being outrageous for attention, all in the hopes that someone will say "You are just like your father."  It's never going to happen, kids.

9 hours ago, pasdetrois said:

He went to their home to "lay down for a few hours and sleep." Perhaps he won't wake up.

I kept waiting to hear that he had been hurt/killed on the way to the funeral.

9 hours ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

first wife, first mistress, second wife and second mistress

Everyone forgets about Connor's mom.

8 hours ago, aghst said:

It's about the spoils, not the journey, specifically lording it over each other if and when one of them wins it.

Yes.  And the spoils = being told they are just like dear old dad.

8 hours ago, gorgy said:

Roman is also the middle child of three

Everyone forgets about Connor.

I’m Team Rava.  There was every reason to move the kids to a safer environment.

I've said it several times this season - no other show should bother with Emmy submissions.  Every person on this show has been superb this year, with Kieran Culkin as the standout.  Bravo!

Edited May 22, 2023 by Haleth

[Pestilentia]

Quote

Pre-grieving = can't imagine which stupid bestseller that came from--or maybe it's a Damaged Roman original. 

 

It's a thing. At least it is a thing in the context of a loved one being terminal and the dying process involves months of suffering and stress. By the time they do die it is 100% a relief that their suffering is past and you've cried all you can cry.
Of course that was not the case with Roman and his cavalier attitude toward his own grief is what did him in.

As far as entering the mob and provoking violence- physical pain is a whole lot easier to handle than emotional pain. I felt as if he was hoping to be beaten to a pulp or even killed in order to escape the emotions that were dominating him, but falling and being near trampled to death works for a weasel. Kieran Culkin absolutely killed this- he made a snarky weasel sympathetic by showing us that he is no more than a child who wants his Daddy back- it was gut wrenching.

I'm seeing here that he will be entering 'Lead Actor" territory at the Emmy's this year-

Quote

Culkin, who plays the sarcastic and jokey Roman on HBO’s hit drama series, confirms to Variety exclusively he will be submitted for the lead drama actor category at this year’s Primetime Emmy Awards.

I don't watch many other series and have no idea who he will be up against but if he doesn't win it is a travesty. That pain looked real and he dug deep. That was just an amazing "performance" so much so that I don't even like that word to describe it- that was an amazing depiction of grief.  

Loved the wives/mistresses club, Rava was right to remove the kids, and if Mattson wins this and needs a puppet then Greg is going to be that person.

And of course Ewan is the only sensible person in that entire church as far as understanding that Logan Roy was not a "good man" like Shiv needs to think, or a "bad man"  like various others like to describe him, but a shade of gray like all the rest of us fallible humans. Money and power corrupt nearly everyone who gets this type of access to it and he was no different- he was fallible and that's the lesson all of these kids need to take away from all of this- that *they*  are fallible, too. Greed is going to be the downfall of our species and not even the Roy children can escape that.

 

[Guest]

Had Rava not called Kendall all packed up as she was leaving, I might be on her side. But she had clearly planned to leave - even if it had just been for an hour or so. Literally calling him on the way as he was en route to the funeral, giving him no chance to lay out security options (which he could afford any security options they wanted or felt needed) was a way to make sure he couldn’t object much. If she had called him earlier, and he had consulted with his security team and then she still felt it was too dangerous, that would be different.

[poeticlicensed]

I was pondering which child is more damaged. Connor, who watched his mom be hauled away to the looney bin and then cast aside when Logan married Caroline. Its clear that Connor suffered at the very least verbal and emotional abuse. Thank goodness for Willa, she just might save him. 

Or Kendall who was clearly the screwed up golden boy who used drugs to fill a void, wants to be just like dad but isn't a killer. 

Shiv who like Kendall wants love from a father who is incapable of giving it and can't have a functioning relationship without screwing it up. 

Or poor Roman, the baby, who it seems was the object of the most abuse by both his dad and his siblings, who clearly never saw a loving relationship modeled to them. Roman can't have a relationship or have sex (masturbation notwithstanding) and can't even bear to be touched.

I think Roman gets my vote. 

 

[sugarbaker design]

Mattson saying "Wilkommen!" to Mencken cracked me the fuck up!

[jeansheridan]

7 hours ago, Artsda said:

Shiv should have left it alone after Kendall spoke, there was no reason for her to go up there other than a power play and try to string coherent sentences together. Nothing sounds like a CEO with her with that speech. 

She is the only Roy who hasn't had a public meltdown. She is the more moderate face of the family too. She also never publically went against her dad other than working in politics which also made her useful connections. She could potentially have Gerri and Karolina on her side. Potentially. She has done nothing to woo them, alas. Ken at least approached Frank, Conner, and Hugo early.

I was struck that all four kids stuck close at the funeral and cemetary. The three core kids even drove to the church together despite Ken being furious with Shiv (Roman didn't seem surprised or fussed about her betrayal honestly).

Endgame...nobody wins but I can picture the four of them having lunch or drinks together after the dogfight. The Roys are family, survivors of crap parents. Ewan said in season one when Ken asked him to vote against Logan, "He is still my brother." They're horrible, toxic people who might be better humans far far away from each other but they can't quit each other. 

[poeticlicensed]

I dont understand why the Roys and Matsson were both trying to ally with Mencken. He hasn't won and it will be in the courts. I thought the deal was imminent, and even if he is declared the winner won't take office for months. Plus the first 100 days are typically chaotic. I mean I get it he wants the ATN support so from his end sure entertain the kids. But the kids think they can affect a change this way? I dont get it. 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, poeticlicensed said:

I dont understand why the Roys and Matsson were both trying to ally with Mencken. He hasn't won and it will be in the courts. I thought the deal was imminent, and even if he is declared the winner won't take office for months. Plus the first 100 days are typically chaotic. I mean I get it he wants the ATN support so from his end sure entertain the kids. But the kids think they can affect a change this way? I dont get it. 

I think the deal still needs to be approved by the board and shareholders - so even if they come to terms, if the political outlook looks like the deal won't actually happen, that will impact the proxy vote.  

[SnarkAttack]

9 hours ago, pasdetrois said:

He went to their home to "lay down for a few hours and sleep." Perhaps he won't wake up.

I keep thinking the same thing.

[red12]

10 hours ago, Broderbits said:

I think Rava had every right to keep the kids out of harm's way. What their usually disinterested father wanted wasn't reason enough to force them into a situation that they probably dreaded anyway.

Ewan got up there and told the truth, and it was wonderful! Now Kendall is trying to be Logan 2.0; how long before he totally fucks that up.

Not to mention, Logan 2.0 (Ken) would have completely ignored those kids while snatching the opportunity to peacock and establish his 2.0-ness. It would have been yet another opportunity to be a complete and utter disappointment.

[weaver]

6 hours ago, Avabelle said:

Has it been confirmed Kendall’s daughter is adopted?

This quote is from an interview in Variety with Natalie Gold, the Rava actress.

"I don’t know what her background is. I know that Sophie’s adopted. We had talked about that, but I don’t know where [Rava’s] parents are from. Jesse and I never had a specific conversation about it. In my head she grew up in New York City and came from a privileged background. I think she met Kendall in business school. But that’s not vetted by Jesse, that’s all my own interpretation. It’s not official canon.

Is Iverson also adopted?

No, Iverson is not adopted. But, again — and this was not discussed at length with Jesse, I think it was more a quick conversation — I do think that it was very hard for Rava to get pregnant."

[red12]

1 minute ago, SnarkAttack said:

I keep thinking the same thing.

That would be interesting and fine with me.

I think I saw him in the trailer for the finale though but could have been some kind of flashback or distraction.

[weaver]

At one point, the Waystar/GoJo deal was to provide funds to the sibs for a takeover of the Pierce empire.  Where does that stand in all of this?  

[poeticlicensed]

10 minutes ago, weaver said:

At one point, the Waystar/GoJo deal was to provide funds to the sibs for a takeover of the Pierce empire.  Where does that stand in all of this?  

I think that's part of what is driving Shiv. She wants the money to buy daddy's white whale, change ATN to look respectable, and rule over all of it. 

If the deal doesn't happen there's no Pearce for Roman or Kendall but I dont think they care, they just don't want to sell Waystar. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, deaja said:

Had Rava not called Kendall all packed up as she was leaving, I might be on her side. But she had clearly planned to leave - even if it had just been for an hour or so. Literally calling him on the way as he was en route to the funeral, giving him no chance to lay out security options (which he could afford any security options they wanted or felt needed) was a way to make sure he couldn’t object much. If she had called him earlier, and he had consulted with his security team and then she still felt it was too dangerous, that would be different.

Keep in mind that the last security options Kendall bought included having a strange SUV tail Rava and family without informing her that is what he had done, scaring the crap out of her and presumably the kids. That says to me two things:

1. It doesn't matter that money is no object. There's a good chance Kendall would screw up whatever security he might try to provide in some way.

2. There's a limit to how much Rava owes Kendall a prior explanation, given the messed up communication between the two of them.

That's putting aside the notion that even the best security team isn't necessarily going to be a) able to protect from random incidents and b) not something I think a lot of parents would want to expose their young kids to. 

Rava already knows their kid had a random close encounter with a Ravenhead fan before the election. There's now mass protests. There's a real danger that either someone from the liberal side or the conservative one could target the Roy family, or that things will spiral out of control.

[maddie965]

12 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Keep in mind that the last security options Kendall bought included having a strange SUV tail Rava and family without informing her that is what he had done, scaring the crap out of her and presumably the kids. That says to me two things:

1. It doesn't matter that money is no object. There's a good chance Kendall would screw up whatever security he might try to provide in some way.

2. There's a limit to how much Rava owes Kendall a prior explanation, given the messed up communication between the two of them.

That's putting aside the notion that even the best security team isn't necessarily going to be a) able to protect from random incidents and b) not something I think a lot of parents would want to expose their young kids to. 

Rava already knows their kid had a random close encounter with a Ravenhead fan before the election. There's now mass protests. There's a real danger that either someone from the liberal side or the conservative one could target the Roy family, or that things will spiral out of control.

I have so much respect for Rava now.

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

2. There's a limit to how much Rava owes Kendall a prior explanation, given the messed up communication between the two of them.

Unless we know that she has sole custody, I would disagree. In most custody documents that I've seen, if the couple has joint legal custody, even if one has sole physical custody, you cannot just make decisions on your own.  Which, I don't remember if the show has addressed their arrangements.  But to me, bottom line, they are not Rava's kids. They are Rava and Kendall's kids, and she doesn't have the right to unilaterally back out of arrangements they made last minute any more than he would.  When you have kids with someone, you are basically signing up to coparent with them unless things are extreme enough that the court removes their rights. As far as what we've seen, that hasn't happened.

[Dobian]

9 hours ago, aghst said:

Ewan's speech was truth, even if it appeared judgmental but he was conflicted, pointing out Logan tortured himself over their sister's death but at the same time, exploited the worst impulses of men to become rich.

My thing with Ewan has always been that he condemns Roy but he has still made a fortune off of Waystar Royco.  So there is always some hypocrisy about him.  Ewan and Roy were both miserable men in their own way.

[DrSpaceman73]

Amy chance atn campaigns now to get Jimenez in office and screw over Menken?

 

I don't trust any of these people to follow through on any agreement. 

Thought for sure Roman was going to get trampled in the streets. 

Kendall wanting custody of his kids? All because his wife is trying to keep them safe? What a joke. 

Shiv is totally going to be screwed over by Matsson

[ichbin]

11 hours ago, SnarkAttack said:

Perhaps the American CEO will be Greg.  In name only, with Mattson pulling all strings, despite what he said about not needing to be in the weeds.

Having Greg get in with Mattson's crew in earlier episodes could point that way.  Mattson has his faults but he has been shown to have a good read on people.  Greg is a just an ambitious puppet but one seemingly incapable of making the switch to puppet master...just the type of person evil, scheming, power freak like Mattson and Menken like to have under their control. I've always figured that his character was written in for a specific purpose in the end game beyond simply being comic relief.  

Now we discover that Logan told Conner about the mausoleum but the other three had no knowledge of it. Up until now it seemed as though Conner was on the outside while the other three were more privy to their father's life.  I wonder if this is leading up to something more for his character.

I'm guessing that Shiv will get screwed over and that it might send her over a cliff and back to Tom who will let her in but never let her forget her failures.

They need to give out joint "best" awards for some of these actors in the fall.  They are all so damn deserving!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[poeticlicensed]

14 minutes ago, deaja said:

Unless we know that she has sole custody, I would disagree. In most custody documents that I've seen, if the couple has joint legal custody, even if one has sole physical custody, you cannot just make decisions on your own.  Which, I don't remember if the show has addressed their arrangements.  But to me, bottom line, they are not Rava's kids. They are Rava and Kendall's kids, and she doesn't have the right to unilaterally back out of arrangements they made last minute any more than he would.  When you have kids with someone, you are basically signing up to coparent with them unless things are extreme enough that the court removes their rights. As far as what we've seen, that hasn't happened.

Remember that when the series started, it was clear that Kendall had a long standing severe drug problem. I suspect that while they maybe share custody with Rava making the decisions or perhaps Rava has custody and Kendall visitation, its not out of the realm of possibility that Kendall has no decision making power re the kids because of his drug history. Rava said this is my decision to make made it clear she holds the cards legally with the kids

[juno]

Conspiracy Theory Succession Edition #1

Mattson was hired by Logan and is helping the STILL ALIVE Logan determine which of the children can take over the company.

 

 

[Penman61]

3 hours ago, Pestilentia said:

And of course Ewan is the only sensible person in that entire church as far as understanding that Logan Roy was not a "good man" like Shiv needs to think, or a "bad man"  like various others like to describe him, but a shade of gray like all the rest of us fallible humans. Money and power corrupt nearly everyone who gets this type of access to it and he was no different- he was fallible and that's the lesson all of these kids need to take away from all of this- that *they*  are fallible, too. Greed is going to be the downfall of our species and not even the Roy children can escape that.

I'm fine describing Logan Roy as a bad man, full stop. If the best one can say about him is that he was a once-in-a-decade capitalist success, then that says more about capitalism than it does about Logan Roy. He beat his kids (at least Roman) when they were small. As adults, he manipulated them and pitted them against each other for his own gain, and occasionally, enjoyment. HE HIT HIS GRANDCHILD. Once a person dies, any possibility of redemption dies with them. Logan was awful, and is now offal.

[Dac22]

2 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

Kendall wanting custody of his kids? All because his wife is trying to keep them safe? What a joke. 

While the danger is part of it, I got the feeling Rava is done with Kendall right now. She's upset with him over ATN calling the election despite it very much not being over as evidenced by her telling him "you said everything would be okay".  

So Kendall understood the personal aspect of it all, and like he is prone to do, aimed to spite her like she did him in his mind.  

[sandyskyblue]

Quote

3 hours ago, Pestilentia said:

Pre-grieving = can't imagine which stupid bestseller that came from--or maybe it's a Damaged Roman original. 

 

While I don't think Roman actually 'pre-grieved', it is definitely a thing....when my husband passed after having cancer for 9 months, I asked my sister 'why do I feel so relieved (one of many emotions I was feeling then) right now?', she said I was already grieving during those 9 months without me even realizing it...it made perfect sense to me then and still does now after 10 years

[Simon Boccanegra]

33 minutes ago, Dobian said:

My thing with Ewan has always been that he condemns Roy but he has still made a fortune off of Waystar Royco.  So there is always some hypocrisy about him.  Ewan and Roy were both miserable men in their own way.

Oh, absolutely. If the show were more directly about Ewan, and he didn't just drop in occasionally to throw truth bombs with regard to Logan, Greg, and the other main players, we'd probably hate him too. He's cold, priggish, withholding, smug, and he always looks as though he's just eaten fish with the bones still in it. He too was marked by his and Logan's shared miserable childhood. He just looks better by comparison. Cromwell is always great, though.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Simon Boccanegra

[politichick]

1 hour ago, weaver said:

This quote is from an interview in Variety with Natalie Gold, the Rava actress.

"I don’t know what her background is. I know that Sophie’s adopted. We had talked about that, but I don’t know where [Rava’s] parents are from. Jesse and I never had a specific conversation about it. In my head she grew up in New York City and came from a privileged background. I think she met Kendall in business school. But that’s not vetted by Jesse, that’s all my own interpretation. It’s not official canon.

Is Iverson also adopted?

No, Iverson is not adopted. But, again — and this was not discussed at length with Jesse, I think it was more a quick conversation — I do think that it was very hard for Rava to get pregnant."

Isn't it obvious Sophie was adopted? She's brown; her parents are not.

[Chicago Redshirt]

6 hours ago, deaja said:

Unless we know that she has sole custody, I would disagree. In most custody documents that I've seen, if the couple has joint legal custody, even if one has sole physical custody, you cannot just make decisions on your own.  Which, I don't remember if the show has addressed their arrangements.  But to me, bottom line, they are not Rava's kids. They are Rava and Kendall's kids, and she doesn't have the right to unilaterally back out of arrangements they made last minute any more than he would.  When you have kids with someone, you are basically signing up to coparent with them unless things are extreme enough that the court removes their rights. As far as what we've seen, that hasn't happened.

This isn't a parent deciding to take the kids to Jersey for a vacation. This is a parent reacting to the fact that America just seemingly elected a fascist in no small part due to Kendall's network, and New York City is awash in political protests that have left Manhattan gridlocked and things very unpredictable. Attending the funeral means going to the heart of this mess, where it is expected that the Fascist-in-Chief-Elect is going to be. 

I think regardless of the formal legal arrangement or normal precedent, it would/should be hard for a court to blame Rava for unilaterally taking the action she did.

Now, should she have told Kendall before as a matter of courtesy? Sure. 

But does Kendall even have a pretense of wanting what's best for the kids here? No. Does Kendall deny any of the reality that having the kids in Manhattan right now is dangerous? No. Does Kendall offer to provide additional security to make things safer? No.

He basically makes it all about him, him, him. He barely throughout the series seems to be able to show that he cares about either of the kids beyond the occasional platitude.

5 hours ago, politichick said:

Isn't it obvious Sophie was adopted? She's brown; her parents are not.

It's at least possible that Rava is of some ethnicity where she has some genes that could be passed on that would explain Sophie's darker skin even though she was the biological child of Rava and Kendall. It's also possible that Sophie is Rava's biological child from a prior marriage/relationship, the result of an affair/relationship during a separation, or a sperm donor because Kendall was shooting blanks.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Chicago Redshirt

[DoubleUTeeEff]

11 hours ago, ProudMary said:

Second wife, third wife. Connor's mother was Roy wife #1.

Of course I forgot Conner's mother, just like everyone forgets about Connor! Thanks for the correction.

 

[poeticlicensed]

55 minutes ago, Dobian said:

My thing with Ewan has always been that he condemns Roy but he has still made a fortune off of Waystar Royco.  So there is always some hypocrisy about him.  Ewan and Roy were both miserable men in their own way.

Ewan is the worst kind of hypocrite. He condemns the money and power yet benefits from them. Oh sure give it all to Greenpeace when you are dead. Why not give it all away or use it to do good works while alive? Instead he sits in his big white house and grumbles about it. He's no better than Logan. 

[iMonrey]

It's hard for me to wrap my head around Roman's emotional breakdown and visible grief over a father who was such an asshole to all his children. It's very Battered Wife syndrome to me. The psychology behind it is more than I want to think about.

I really don't see how they can wrap this up in a nice tidy bow with just one more episode, so I suspect they won't. I'm anticipating more of a Sopranos-style ending where we just sort of walk away without any real resolution. There's so much story that there's no real stopping point to it.

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 minutes ago, poeticlicensed said:

Ewan is the worst kind of hypocrite. He condemns the money and power yet benefits from them. Oh sure give it all to Greenpeace when you are dead. Why not give it all away or use it to do good works while alive? Instead he sits in his big white house and grumbles about it. He's no better than Logan. 

To be fair, we don't know how much Ewan has given away or what he does with his time, other than disinheriting or dissing the occasional relative. And he doesn't seem to be putting himself up on a pedestal...he owned up to being a meager person in the eulogy as well. 

Edited May 22, 2023 by Chicago Redshirt

[Broderbits]

10 hours ago, Artsda said:

Tired of Mattson stuck in this, I don't want him to get anything and Shiv taking his side is not appealing.

I wouldn't mind if he took everything from the Roy siblings and set it on fire. Wouldn't mind that at all........

[TexasGal]

Greg congratulating Ewan when he sat back down, after looking apologetically towards the siblings the whole time he was speaking, is just peak Greg.

[DoubleUTeeEff]

15 minutes ago, poeticlicensed said:

Ewan is the worst kind of hypocrite. He condemns the money and power yet benefits from them. Oh sure give it all to Greenpeace when you are dead. Why not give it all away or use it to do good works while alive? Instead he sits in his big white house and grumbles about it. He's no better than Logan. 

IMHO, there is a huge difference between people like Bill Gates or Ewan and people like Murdoch or Logan. One uses their money to set up charitable foundations to fight the number one disease in the world, malaria, (or give it to Greenpeace) and pledges to give it away when they die while the other uses money to spread hate, disinformation and rhetoric to further their goal to hoard their money and give it to the next generation to continue the cycle rather than giving back to the community. Are they both capitalist pigs? Sure. But at least one side does actually care about humanity rather than just themselves.

[cardigirl]

I thought this was an excellent episode, everyone firing on all cylinders with the acting.

Roman, I feel so bad for that young man. As has been pointed out before by many others, he is in desperate need of therapy and nurturing. I have never hated him, but was rooting for him to be able to withstand the rigors of his family of origin and turn out to be the one sane individual in the group. The off-color talk was a screen to hide any true emotion from being seen by someone else. To have him crumble as he did, in his "shining moment," made me sad. I hated that people were making fun of his real emotions of grief and loss. 

Rava reacting to the news and saying she needed to leave with the kids for their protection did seem a little bit over-reacting to me. I'm sure the cars they ride in are bulletproof, and they have drivers and it looked like bodyguards already. Especially on the day of Logan's funeral. Lucky that she has somewhere she feels safer, like upstate NY.  LOL!  I'm sure there's nobody dangerous there.

I agree that Kendall has not been a great dad, or even a good dad, and his overriding concern was that his (emphasis on HIS) children were not there at a significant event to him, not that his children were uncomfortable. So I don't have a lot of sympathy for him either.

And Shiv. Well, when she took a champagne flute and dared Tom to say anything to her, I loathed her in that moment, possibly more than I ever have. She cares so little for her baby's health, she'll torture Tom by acting like it's not big deal to drink. (I know that there are differing opinions on how much or how little alcohol is acceptable.) 

I really kind of hope Greg does end up with it all. I despise Mattson, and don't want him to come out on top either. 

Only one episode left.  I will miss this show. 

 

 

 

Edited May 22, 2023 by cardigirl

[Broderbits]

4 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

I really kind of hope Greg does end up with it all.

To quote Frasier Crane: "What a merry time of misrule that would be!". Greg is incompetent and eagerly submissive, so goodbye Logan Roy Legacy.

[ahpny]

11 hours ago, Broderbits said:

I think Rava had every right to keep the kids out of harm's way. What their usually disinterested father wanted wasn't reason enough to force them into a situation that they probably dreaded anyway.

Her "rights" are governed by their divorce agreement and whatever else the Court may have said. Though were not privy to those details, Kendall's reactions seem to confirm she does indeed after the right to do exactly what she did. More specifically, he hastily made an appointment with matrimonial counsel to change the custody terms that are in place. Also, given the rapidly deteriorating situation (to which both Kendall and Logan contributed), she can be excused for not providing more generous notice. Whether her decision was justified or fair is another matter, but there's nothing to suggest she did this for any reason other than her fear for the safety of their children. Whether her fear was irrational or based on an exaggerated assessment of the danger isn't wholly clear. Nevertheless, nothing points to "screwing Kendall" as any part of her motivation. 

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I also love that Marica comforted Kerry.

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Marcia was surprisingly kind at the funeral, taking Kerri's hand and asking Shiv if she was OK and that she loved and missed Logan and he broke all of their hearts.  A very succinct and trenchant point.

I didn’t understand that. Marcia has never been shown to be warm and loving. What’s in it for her to show a modicum of human kindness now? She’s consistently been shown to be a cold, vindictive and dispassionately focused on her own interests. That is, a good fit for the Roys.

Quote

Ewan's speech was truth, even if it appeared judgmental but he was conflicted, pointing out Logan tortured himself over their sister's death but at the same time, exploited the worst impulses of men to become rich.

A good eulogy for a bad person is a tricky thing to pull off. We don’t generally say bad things about the deceased in a eulogy, but Logan Roy wasn’t some random guy. There were literally riots happening largely because of him as the mourners gathered for his funeral. Ewan's speech was poignant because it was truthful but surprisingly measured and respectful. He loved and understood his brother despite his flaws, which were many and monumental.  

Quote

That look Shiv gave Tom when she deliberately drank champagne in front of him - very “Go ahead, say something about it. I dare you.” Yikes.

I didn’t know what to make of that other than as a reading from the usual Roy playbook of putting misplaced effort into hurting others (here Tom) despite the harm caused to the innocent (the fetus).

Quote

Kendall did amazing on the fly to give that eulogy

That it wasn’t the expected total failure (he didn’t rap, and was better than Roman) doesn’t mean it was worthy of much praise. It was still largely incoherent and banal – “greed is good” doesn’t really cut it. Corpuscles, money, yadda, yadda, just more Kendall-speak that didn’t really go anywhere. Also, he admitted that what Ewen said was correct, so not much of “the other side” came through, which seemed to be what he had intended Roman address.

That frequently-forgotten Connor was the only Roy child to have a spouse or significant other present at their father’s funeral seems telling. He may be in the eyes of his siblings a failure and a joke, but at least he has someone who shows up and does offer real support. None of the other siblings had that. 

[BlackberryJam]

If I were Rava, I’d move the kids as far the hell away from the Roys as I possibility could. Kendall sees them never, used Rava’s house as war room and brought his bedmate at the time over to drink her wine, doesn’t even call his daughter after she has a troubling experience on the street and likely couldn’t pass a hair follicle drug test. He learned parenting from Logan.

On top of that, why would anyone want their kids around Uncle Roman? Let’s not forget him telling Shiv that he’d have to go rub one out if he saw her nursing. 

As to the eulogy, I remembered Willa’s fantastic eulogy she wrote for Connor at Mo-Lester’s funeral. “When a man dies, it is sad. All of us will die one day. In this case, it is Lester who has done so.” Speaking of Willa, she seemed to just stand around in the back looking at her phone. Classic.

Shiv and the champagne, I specifically looked at her first drink and she put her lips on the class, tipped it up and let the champagne touch her mouth, no actual drink. I didn’t watch the second one that closely. Such a “Fuck You” to Tom.

Harriet Walter is completely fabulous. I also loved Marcia this episode. I felt like her prior cold bitchiness was because she was pissed at the kids and trying to cut them out and then she was pissed at Logan for his treatment of her. With Logan gone, through whatever grieving process, she’s moving past that fury.

 

[Simon Boccanegra]

I'm watching the episode a second time. I have to give it up to Nicholas Braun for his ability, even this far into the series, to make Greg's halting, fragmented speech sound so natural, not like actor shtick. He does this a lot when Greg is asking for something and is still trying to edit himself while speaking, to reword and "soften" whatever the request is.

[Athena5217]

4 hours ago, sugarbaker design said:

Mattson saying "Wilkommen!" to Mencken cracked me the fuck up!

My closed captioning gave this as “Välkommen,” which is Swedish so I just assumed it was an appropriate Swedish greeting. However, I could see Mattson making a snarky Nazi reference.

[Simon Boccanegra]

29 minutes ago, ahpny said:

A good eulogy for a bad person is a tricky thing to pull off.

When you're really stumped, you can always fall back on physics. 

 

[maddie965]

31 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

Shiv and the champagne, I specifically looked at her first drink and she put her lips on the class, tipped it up and let the champagne touch her mouth, no actual drink. I didn’t watch the second one that closely. Such a “Fuck You” to Tom.

 

And yet, a minute after that, she shows concern for Tom's well-being and even suggests that he rests at their old apartment. I swear, I don't understand those two. Maybe in another universe Shiv might be able to love Tom. In this one, she seems to have very confusing feelings of hatred and affection for him. It's quite fascinating to me.

[Absurda]

I have to admit to getting a little bit of satisfaction from Roman getting hit then slightly trampled by the protesters.  He was spoiling for a fight but in the end, like a typical bully, crumpled when someone fought back.  I like when any of the kids are reminded that they are only big, tough, powerful people inside the company their daddy built.

I think Rava was right not to take the kids to the funeral.  It's not about what Ken wants or what Rava wants but what's best for the kids.  Should they have had to go through all that to sit in a funeral for someone who barely gave 2 sh!ts about them?  The funeral was really not kid friendly.

Ken made a decision that makes the kids' world worse and he just wants them around to make him feel better about it.  To pretend he cares more about them than anything else.  Then Shiv tells Mattson her plan is to be a crappy parent like her father.  The best thing for the second generation would be to be raised by anyone other than a Roy.  Even wolves would be better parents.

I kinda want to hear Connor's eulogy just to I can find out how a eulogy can open them up to legal action.

[MBayGal]

1 hour ago, ahpny said:

Quote

Marcia was surprisingly kind at the funeral, taking Kerri's hand and asking Shiv if she was OK and that she loved and missed Logan and he broke all of their hearts.  A very succinct and trenchant point.

I didn’t understand that. Marcia has never been shown to be warm and loving. What’s in it for her to show a modicum of human kindness now? She’s consistently been shown to be a cold, vindictive and dispassionately focused on her own interests. That is, a good fit for the Roys.

I agree, this rang false to me.  Just a few days ago she tossed Kerry and her few things out to have a taxi drop her at the subway.  Now she is treating her like a special friend.  Made no sense.  But someone earlier said that Sally Anne (?), one of Logan's mistresses when married to Caroline, was played by Brian Cox's wife, so maybe the whole thing was just a setup for her to appear.  I think Jesse A could have found a better bit for her cameo.

[poeticlicensed]

My speculation is that we end where we began, with Kendall positioning himself to take over and becoming Logan. Instead of a normal succession that is laid out in advance,  he will do it by smashing and destroying everything in his path, including his siblings, children, ex, and everyone he had a relationship with at Waystar. I predict he will end up like Logan, all alone, watching ATN. 

 

[Dianaofthehunt]

I've said it several times this season - no other show should bother with Emmy submissions.

errr…*cough cough* …Babylon Berlin. The show that is gliding over all.

Apropos of nothing: maybe it’s the belt-and-suspenders in me, but it annoys me no end that the characters

use their phones without a protective case! That looks so wrong to me.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Dianaofthehunt

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, MBayGal said:

I agree, this rang false to me.  Just a few days ago she tossed Kerry and her few things out to have a taxi drop her at the subway.  Now she is treating her like a special friend.  Made no sense.  But someone earlier said that Sally Anne (?), one of Logan's mistresses when married to Caroline, was played by Brian Cox's wife, so maybe the whole thing was just a setup for her to appear.  I think Jesse A could have found a better bit for her cameo.

Yeah, that whole scene didn't do it for me. It was odd and I didn't buy that Kerry was that broken up over Logan's death. I think she was with him for money and power, not some great love.

[Pestilentia]

15 minutes ago

Quote

I have to admit to getting a little bit of satisfaction from Roman getting hit then slightly trampled by the protesters.  He was spoiling for a fight but in the end, like a typical bully, crumpled when someone fought back.

 

I don't think Roman was "spoiling for a fight" at all, he was looking to be beaten senseless in order to escape his emotional pain..

[absnow54]

34 minutes ago, Absurda said:

I kinda want to hear Connor's eulogy just to I can find out how a eulogy can open them up to legal action.

They realized there was no topping the eulogy Connor gave for Mo, so they didn’t even try.