S05.E04: Susan

[Pallas]

Susie ropes Midge into performing in an industrial musical.

[reallyjustjen]

I could have done without 1.5 full viewings of the 3-act waste management musical.  🙃. But given that Midge clearly understood Susie’s relationship with the mob guys, would it have killed her to just suck it up and play along?   And is Susie really so naive that she thought one favor would make her even with the guys? 

Did not see it coming that Gordon Ford’s wife was “Susan”’s ex.   Maybe Gordon’s explanation to Midge that he and his wife have “an arrangement” is more complicated than the nonsense excuse it initially seemed? 

I laughed harder than I should have when the playwright confirmed that the play really was just about his childhood and his dog (after being literally dragged from his table by Rose!), and I was glad to see that Abe was at least a bit humbled/contrite in the end.  

Really hoping we haven’t seen the last of Lenny!  Though given that we’ve already seen Midge’s future, it seems that he doesn’t factor into her life in any meaningful way.  But I’m holding out hope that we’ll see him at least one more time, since Luke Kirby is amazing playing him and he and Midge have awesome chemistry.

 

[EtheltoTillie]

I want Nina Arianda’s coat. 

Interesting reveal about Susie’s past finally, and now we know what caught her eye in that photo, but really wouldn’t she have already known who Gordon Ford’s wife was?  He’s so famous. 

[NeenerNeener]

I see this episode as Sherman-Palladino's tribute to Bunheads.

6 hours ago, reallyjustjen said:

I laughed harder than I should have when the playwright confirmed that the play really was just about his childhood and his dog

I had flashbacks to college lit courses where we were tasked with finding deep meaning and symbolism in works that probably had no more meaning than this.

Could Gordon be one of Midge's next husbands? 

Edited April 21, 2023 by NeenerNeener

[EtheltoTillie]

10 minutes ago, NeenerNeener said:

I see this episode as Sherman-Palladino's tribute to Bunheads.

I h

Good point.  I thought it was an interesting dive into the tradition of industrial shows, but otherwise it had no point for the overall story.  The side story about paying back the mob guys made no sense.  The mob guys really needed to promote their sanitation company at an industrial show? 

[wonderwoman]

don’t know if i’m the only one, but this was a weak, repetitive episode that i pretty much ff’ed through until the susie/susan reveal. felt like filler — odd for the final season.

[shapeshifter]

10 hours ago, reallyjustjen said:

given that Midge clearly understood Susie’s relationship with the mob guys, would it have killed her to just suck it up and play along?

Midge is consistent. I appreciate consistency. And Midge's temper tantrums end with her having to pivot her life. And without the pivots, there'd have been no famous comic of Mrs. Maisel, just housewife Mrs. Maisel. 

 

10 hours ago, reallyjustjen said:

Did not see it coming that Gordon Ford’s wife was “Susan”’s ex.   Maybe Gordon’s explanation to Midge that he and his wife have “an arrangement” is more complicated than the nonsense excuse it initially seemed?

Apparently, and so, possibly:

3 hours ago, NeenerNeener said:

Could Gordon be one of Midge's next husbands?

Maybe. Midge might agree to be one of Ford's wives in exchange for getting out from under the Mob if Ford can pay them off, which might also be why she had to drop Susie??
Just riffing. 
And since Susie does well too, part of getting out from under the Mob must've included freeing Susie. 
Maybe Ford's current wife (Susie's ex who is still interested) has a lot of her own money and wants to stop being Mrs. Ford or something?
Regardless, I'm guessing Midge will have to quit being a writer to get on Ford's show?
But there's also a hint that Joel wants to get Midge out from under the Mob. 
So maybe Joel pays off the Mob to buy out Midge, and then when Midge hits the Big Time, she buys out Susie, but there's some agreement that requires Midge and Susie don't work together or whatever?

 

10 hours ago, reallyjustjen said:

Really hoping we haven’t seen the last of Lenny!  Though given that we’ve already seen Midge’s future, it seems that he doesn’t factor into her life in any meaningful way.  But I’m holding out hope that we’ll see him at least one more time, since Luke Kirby is amazing playing him and he and Midge have awesome chemistry.

Yes. Yes. Yes. And yes. But the axiom of show biz is to "leave 'em wanting more," so we might only get an obituary for poor Lenny. They could borrow from his NY Times obit. This portion speaks to the complaints about Midge's "unfunny" routines:

Quote

His humor on the stage rarely evoked a comfortable belly laugh. It required concentration, and then often produced a wry smile and perhaps a fighting gleam in the eye. There were also spells of total confusion as Mr. Bruce rambled in a stream-of- consciousness fashion.

(archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/bday/1013.html)

 

 

10 hours ago, reallyjustjen said:

I could have done without 1.5 full viewings of the 3-act waste management musical.  🙃.

But Susie's line of "what the fuck are they going to do to that little boy?" was possibly the funniest line in the series ― which was followed up with the kid in his pjs playing dead with a pipe in his head.😱 
Definitely the Mob had a lot of hands in the show.
Anyway, Alex Borstein definitely deserved her Emmy and other awards. 

I always love the wardrobe, and Midge's opening outfit for this episode maybe be an all time favorite, with the perfectly tailored fit and the sculptural belt (sorry I don't have a better picture at the moment). I was additionally intrigued and delighted that the dress colors coordinated with Ford's sweater when she entered his office ― which could be another hint at a future official Ford/Maisel pairing ― perhaps reminiscent of her friendship with Shy Baldwin? But, based on the drunk ice rink kiss, I'm guessing Ford is at least bi, if not just hetero.

Edited April 21, 2023 by shapeshifter

[Insert Username]

Why can't Midge not be a self-centered beyotch for one single day? This reminds me of when she ruined her co-workers wedding reception. For someone who was brought up to be a perfect wife and mother and a deep understanding of societal norms, she literally never understands appropriateness.  The Palladinos never seem to understand that less is sometimes more with their lead characters

[buckboard]

There is a wonderful documentary - "Bathtubs Over Broadway" - about industrial musicals.  They were really big in the day and many stars - e.g., Chita Rivera, Martin Short, Florence Henderson - got their starts appearing in them.

https://www.broadwayworld.com/article/Streaming-Review-BATHTUBS-OVER-BROADWAY-A-Fantastic-Award-Winning-Documentary-About-Industrial-Musicals-20200728

[shapeshifter]

41 minutes ago, buckboard said:

There is a wonderful documentary - "Bathtubs Over Broadway" - about industrial musicals.  They were really big in the day and many stars - e.g., Chita Rivera, Martin Short, Florence Henderson - got their starts appearing in them.

https://www.broadwayworld.com/article/Streaming-Review-BATHTUBS-OVER-BROADWAY-A-Fantastic-Award-Winning-Documentary-About-Industrial-Musicals-20200728

Thank you for sharing! I bet my dad attended these. I remember him creating a prop for a bit as part of a presentation in the late 1950s, but I don't know that it was recorded.

[Elbaite 2.0]

Buckboard, I second thanking you for the link. I'm really glad that TMMM decided to showcase industrial musicals. As your link demonstrates, they were a major support system for a lot of Broadway talent.

My parents, who sold dress and drapery fabrics, looked forward to the famous Milliken Breakfast Show every year. I always wished they would have taken me, but I'm not sure they permitted children, and tickets were very hard to score. You can see why when you check out the stars on the programs!

https://www.waldorfstories.com/stories/linda-marie-fiore

 

[txhorns79]

3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

So maybe Joel pays off the Mob to buy out Midge, and then when Midge hits the Big Time, she buys out Susie, but there's some agreement that requires Midge and Susie don't work together or whatever?

The 60 Minutes flash forward said Midge and Susie worked together for 25 years, so it probably was not that which separated them.

 

6 hours ago, NeenerNeener said:

I see this episode as Sherman-Palladino's tribute to Bunheads.

It reminded me somewhat of them wasting so much time showing the actual Stars Hollow Musical when they did the Year in the Life.  I just figured Amazon dumped way too much money on ASP, and this is what happened.  

[SnapHappy]

This definitely felt like a filler episode, just getting us from the writers room to heading Midge in the direction of a headlining gig. 

But I'm more on the side of "Susan" trading in on her relationship wit Hedy to get Midge either on Gordon's show, or something comparable.  He'll do a favor for his wife so she can make Susie happy & get Midge some action. 

I didn't really get the rose petals Abe dropped on Rose's bed, though the kneeling on the floor definitely seemed like his version of an apology. 

[basil]

11 hours ago, Insert Username said:

Why can't Midge not be a self-centered beyotch for one single day? This reminds me of when she ruined her co-workers wedding reception

I never liked Midge, and she just keeps getting worse. Now Susie is in very real, physical danger because she couldn't just do TWO lousy shows. She was an ass during the first one, barely walking through it, but the second one? Changing lines, showing open contempt? Susie deserves better.

I've been watching for the costumes and the NYC scenery, but I'm glad it's ending. I'll never watch another Palladino show again.

[Francie]

Man, Alex Bortsein got to me. What a performance at the end there. I felt her heartbreak, hard.

I've been waiting for the shoe to drop with Nicky and Frank, and I'm glad it's happening early enough on this season. I've dreaded seeing how bad they could be, because I didn't want darkness this season to ruin re-watches of earlier seasons. I need Joel to figure out what's going on and call in some chips with Mei's family. I really want to see Mei again, too. 

[kwnyc]

Midge runs true to form...she always acts out when she doesn't get what she wants. 

And that come-to-Jesus speech about what Susie owes the mob has been building up for awhile. I mean, they have done a lot for her...from not killing her to getting her a Broadway house...Sophie Lennon is lucky Susie dropped her, otherwise they'd be wanting a taste of a network show.

Alex Borstein is just one of the best actors out there.

 

 

[Quilt Fairy]

10 hours ago, wonderwoman said:

don’t know if i’m the only one, but this was a weak, repetitive episode that i pretty much ff’ed through until the susie/susan reveal. felt like filler — odd for the final season.

You're not alone, I'm with you.  This was pretty much a waste of an episode in a 9-episode final season.  Midge, by this time, should know that temper tantrums are fine behind closed doors, but on stage, no matter what the stage, you have to be a professional. 

[Sarah 103]

19 hours ago, reallyjustjen said:

Did not see it coming that Gordon Ford’s wife was “Susan”’s ex.   Maybe Gordon’s explanation to Midge that he and his wife have “an arrangement” is more complicated than the nonsense excuse it initially seemed? 

At first I thought "the arrangement" was one of the oldest lies men tell, right up there with "the marriage is really over and I'll be leaving her as soon as _______." By the end of the episode, I had changed my mind. I think Gordon was telling the truth. He and Hedy have a marriage because it looks good for publicity reasons. As long as neither one gets caught and are discreet, they are both free to have affairs. 

6 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

It reminded me somewhat of them wasting so much time showing the actual Stars Hollow Musical when they did the Year in the Life.  I just figured Amazon dumped way too much money on ASP, and this is what happened.  

During the waste management musical, I was thinking, it's still better than Stars Hallow: The Musical, from Gilmore Girls: Year in the Life. I wonder if Amy Sherman Pallidino is like George Lucas. She needs limits in terms of budget and people telling her no in order to do create her best work. 

1 hour ago, Francie said:

I've been waiting for the shoe to drop with Nicky and Frank, and I'm glad it's happening early enough on this season. I've dreaded seeing how bad they could be, because I didn't want darkness this season to ruin re-watches of earlier seasons. 

It will be interesting to see where this goes. It's a potentially dark plotline. Joel clearly knows not only that something is wrong but has a pretty good idea what it is. He wants/needs to fix this but has no idea how. 

Susie lost of the love of her life and never had another serious romantic relationship ever again. That is probably one of the biggest surprises. I was sure that Susie was asexual, and boy was I wrong. 

[funnygirl]

Midge couldn't even muster the energy to put on a good performance for her kids in the audience. 

She's really hard to root for. And a show with a lead that's hard to root for is hard to watch.*

*this doesn't include shows who's themes and leads are meant to be deplorable, at least we know that is by design. But I get the feeling the Palladinos want us to be on Midge's side. 

[lavenderblue]

I didn't get Susie's reaction to the photo in the last ep, but between that, her weirdness during the conversation with Midge about Gordon's wife, and Gordon's repeated insistence that he and Hedy had an understanding, I guessed at the revelation that came at the end, so that was kind of rewarding. Good thing because the industrial show was the worst kind of self-indulgent ASP filler, though Susie's line about the little boy was the one bright spot. And roping Joel into the mob storyline would be an efficient use of him while moving things forward.

For some reason I'm enjoying this season more than I have the last couple--I think it feels more focused in on Midge and Susie and the side plots aren't quite so....much--but the over-the-top Amazon Prime budget sprees remind me of why this show annoys me way more than I wish it would. Also, weird timing; something random made me think "you know, I hope Sophie's not returning" (not a fan of Sophie Lennon plots) and then she literally appeared in the next scene! Fine in that context, though.

Also, Hedy's coat was stunning.

Edited April 22, 2023 by lavenderblue

[kathe5133]

Did I miss it?  Why was there no mention that Susie's sister was featured in the garbage extravaganza?

[txhorns79]

5 hours ago, Francie said:

Man, Alex Bortsein got to me. What a performance at the end there. I felt her heartbreak, hard.

I was surprised Susie went to college.  I thought they always presented her as someone who had grown up in very modest circumstances, where street smarts made up for a lack of education and she had mostly been on her own since she was young.

 

3 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

She needs limits in terms of budget and people telling her no in order to do create her best work. 

This.  Though I will say I did enjoy Zelda's boyfriend giving them all cake, telling them the alcohol had burned off in the baking and the next scene was everyone passed out at the table after eating one slice.  

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, funnygirl said:

Midge couldn't even muster the energy to put on a good performance for her kids in the audience. 

3 hours ago, kwnyc said:

Midge runs true to form...she always acts out when she doesn't get what she wants. 

I can also see an alternate view of Midge: 
She is a natural performer. For Midge, "All the world's a stage" — literally. 
Midge wants a chance at a time when women who wanted that chance had to fight for it.
(Still do.)
When Midge is robbed of that chance, she acts out — literally acting out her outrage for all the world to see.
It's what she did in her nightgown onstage in the first episode of the series.
Her kids couldn't understand this, but maybe somehow it seeped into their ids, and that's why each forged their own way in the world. Too bad, like their mom, they don't seem to have any real joy.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, kathe5133 said:

Did I miss it?  Why was there no mention that Susie's sister was featured in the garbage extravaganza?

Susie did applaud and cheer for her sister, if that's what you mean?
We posters here haven't really gotten around to her much, but it was probably the most joyous turn of events — provided we don't dwell on the Mob casting a pall of fear over everyone.
IDK. Did Sinatra or Marylin Monroe fear the Mob?

 

16 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I did enjoy Zelda's boyfriend giving them all cake, telling them the alcohol had burned off in the baking and the next sleep was everyone passed out at the table after eating one slice.  

The head nun at a school where I worked told me that about the rummy dessert at a banquet for the graduating senior girls the first year I was there.
And then I actually fell for Janusz' line again.🤣

[Quilt Fairy]

2 hours ago, kathe5133 said:

Did I miss it?  Why was there no mention that Susie's sister was featured in the garbage extravaganza?

In one of the 3 episodes that dropped last week, Susie and her sister were having an argument over the phone and her sister said something like "This is my chance, and I'm going to take it."   There was no context at the time, but this had to have been what she meant. 

[Francie]

6 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I was surprised Susie went to college.  I thought they always presented her as someone who had grown up in very modest circumstances, where street smarts made up for a lack of education and she had mostly been on her own since she was young.

Susie mentioned once, under her breath, having gone to law school. 

She's a rare individual who grew up in very modest circumstances,  had street smarts and was on her own since she was young, and then went to college. And learned to ice skate. And play classical piano. The woman has talents and depths. 

It seems like Susie reinvented herself as a more polished Susan in college. But somehow she got knocked down and retreated back to her Susie roots. Whether it was the heartbreak or something more, maybe we'll find out. 

 

[EtheltoTillie]

Agree, I was not surprised she went to college.  She always pulls out these secret talents. 

Edited April 22, 2023 by EtheltoTillie

[AuntieMame]

On 4/21/2023 at 1:04 AM, EtheltoTillie said:

I want Nina Arianda’s coat. 

Interesting reveal about Susie’s past finally, and now we know what caught her eye in that photo, but really wouldn’t she have already known who Gordon Ford’s wife was?  He’s so famous. 

We did get a clue in Susie’s line about “wives who shouldn’t be wives”, so I was wondering. Visually the show presents Susie as a slightly gender non-conforming lesbian but we’ve never seen her involved with anyone. A heart beyond shattered makes sense to me with Susie.
 
And yeah, this means that Gordon might not just be shoveling the usual nonsense of married men looking to play away from home. I thought Midge and Gordon had chemistry. Not like Lenny, but chemistry. 

12 hours ago, Francie said:

Man, Alex Bortsein got to me. What a performance at the end there. I felt her heartbreak, hard.

I've been waiting for the shoe to drop with Nicky and Frank, and I'm glad it's happening early enough on this season. I've dreaded seeing how bad they could be, because I didn't want darkness this season to ruin re-watches of earlier seasons. I need Joel to figure out what's going on and call in some chips with Mei's family. I really want to see Mei again, too. 

I’m wondering if Joel might bail them out via Mei’s parents too. Joel already quietly bailed Susie and Midge out when Susie gambled Midge’s Shay Baldwin money away. In some ways I’m with the family court judge who suggested that Midge and Joel shouldn’t divorce. Maybe they should have come to some sort of arrangement themselves. 

38 minutes ago, Francie said:

Susie mentioned once, under her breath, having gone to law school. 

She's a rare individual who grew up in very modest circumstances,  had street smarts and was on her own since she was young, and then went to college. And learned to ice skate. And play classical piano. The woman has talents and depths. 

It seems like Susie reinvented herself as a more polished Susan in college. But somehow she got knocked down and retreated back to her Susie roots. Whether it was the heartbreak or something more, maybe we'll find out. 

 

The more I watch, the more I adore Susie. She reminds me of so many scrappy, resourceful, resilient and brilliant women who never really get the credit they deserve for bravery and endurance let alone anything else. In the characterization of Susie, for whatever reasons, the Palladinos have held back a little and Susie feels more like a character instead of a caricature than any other player on the show. 

[Crs97]

8 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Too bad, like their mom, they don't seem to have any real joy.

I thought Ethan was content in his simple life with his fiancée and rabbi studies.

[debraran]

22 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Midge is consistent. I appreciate consistency. And Midge's temper tantrums end with her having to pivot her life. And without the pivots, there'd have been no famous comic of Mrs. Maisel, just housewife Mrs. Maisel. 

 

Apparently, and so, possibly:

Maybe. Midge might agree to be one of Ford's wives in exchange for getting out from under the Mob if Ford can pay them off, which might also be why she had to drop Susie??
Just riffing. 
And since Susie does well too, part of getting out from under the Mob must've included freeing Susie. 
Maybe Ford's current wife (Susie's ex who is still interested) has a lot of her own money and wants to stop being Mrs. Ford or something?
Regardless, I'm guessing Midge will have to quit being a writer to get on Ford's show?
But there's also a hint that Joel wants to get Midge out from under the Mob. 
So maybe Joel pays off the Mob to buy out Midge, and then when Midge hits the Big Time, she buys out Susie, but there's some agreement that requires Midge and Susie don't work together or whatever?

 

Yes. Yes. Yes. And yes. But the axiom of show biz is to "leave 'em wanting more," so we might only get an obituary for poor Lenny. They could borrow from his NY Times obit. This portion speaks to the complaints about Midge's "unfunny" routines:

 

 

But Susie's line of "what the fuck are they going to do to that little boy?" was possibly the funniest line in the series ― which was followed up with the kid in his pjs playing dead with a pipe in his head.😱 
Definitely the Mob had a lot of hands in the show.
Anyway, Alex Borstein definitely deserved her Emmy and other awards. 

I always love the wardrobe, and Midge's opening outfit for this episode maybe be an all time favorite, with the perfectly tailored fit and the sculptural belt (sorry I don't have a better picture at the moment). I was additionally intrigued and delighted that the dress colors coordinated with Ford's sweater when she entered his office ― which could be another hint at a future official Ford/Maisel pairing ― perhaps reminiscent of her friendship with Shy Baldwin? But, based on the drunk ice rink kiss, I'm guessing Ford is at least bi, if not just hetero.

I love this dress combo too and first time I've seen them "match" but no mention of it from Midge so subtle. Still love the one I posted the most from season one courtroom but this year has been harder to get cute outfits and this was a winner.

Gordon's marriage reminded me of Katherine Hepburn and Spencer Tracy, but he was "religious" and thought cheating was better. (sarcasm) I felt for Susie when she said" I have no use for wives who shouldn't be wives" but those times were much harder than now for anyone who was gay.

Midge has some chemistry with Gordon but nothing like with Lenny, that was electric. I don't see why Gordon can't divorce and they both just live their lives, divorce did happen then.

[DrSpaceman73]

22 hours ago, Insert Username said:

Why can't Midge not be a self-centered beyotch for one single day? This reminds me of when she ruined her co-workers wedding reception. For someone who was brought up to be a perfect wife and mother and a deep understanding of societal norms, she literally never understands appropriateness.  The Palladinos never seem to understand that less is sometimes more with their lead characters

She was also brought up self centered entitled and self righteous. She is just like her dad.  He lost a TENURED professor job at Columbia all over his ego. He thinks he's right about everything just like we saw tonight.  No regard for the consequences of their actions to others around them.  

Anyone else think of the nightman cometh when seeing the boy in bed and her wondering what was going to happen?  

I think we know where it's going with the split between Susie and Midge.  

I think she did know her ex was married to him that's why she snuck in his office, snooping for clues about her. 

[iMonrey]

I thought the dance number with the garbage can lids was fantastic. I watched it twice, and I will probably watch it again. They really pulled off some Broadway-worthy stuff with that musical. Color me impressed. That could not have been easy.

Quote

Did I miss it?  Why was there no mention that Susie's sister was featured in the garbage extravaganza?

They must have cut something, right? Susie didn't seem surprised or anything when she saw Tessie up there. Apparently there was a brief reference to something between them last episode but I don't remember it and didn't connect it to this. That was just weird.

Quote

I don't see why Gordon can't divorce and they both just live their lives, divorce did happen then.

It's easier to see what Hedy gets out of this marriage than what Gordon does. I guess it just looks better on paper if he's a family man than a single guy with different girlfriends all the time. A divorce could stigmatize his image. I know Johnny Carson was divorced numerous times but that didn't really come into play, conversation wise, until the late 70s, early 80s.

[janie jones]

4 hours ago, AuntieMame said:

I’m wondering if Joel might bail them out via Mei’s parents too.

That was my first thought, too, but what reason do Mei's parents have to help him now?

[Cramps]

On 4/21/2023 at 12:45 PM, buckboard said:

There is a wonderful documentary - "Bathtubs Over Broadway" - about industrial musicals.  They were really big in the day and many stars - e.g., Chita Rivera, Martin Short, Florence Henderson - got their starts appearing in them.

https://www.broadwayworld.com/article/Streaming-Review-BATHTUBS-OVER-BROADWAY-A-Fantastic-Award-Winning-Documentary-About-Industrial-Musicals-20200728

Yes!!! The documentary on them is hilarious and charming! Highly recommended!!! I think it’s on Netflix now. 

[Carolina Girl]

On 4/21/2023 at 7:28 AM, wonderwoman said:

odd for the final season.

I have a co-worker who cornered me in the lunch room telling me she's getting final season Game of Thrones vibes from this show.  

[Carolina Girl]

18 hours ago, Francie said:

What a performance at the end there. I felt her heartbreak, hard.

Reminds me of her eulogy for Jackie.  

[Crs97]

2 hours ago, janie jones said:

That was my first thought, too, but what reason do Mei's parents have to help him now?

Would he threaten to expose Mai’s abortion?  Only thing I can think of.

[Sarah 103]

14 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

 Did Sinatra or Marylin Monroe fear the Mob?

Sinatra didn't fear the Mob because they were backing him. Parts of Johnny Fontaine in Godfather are based on Sinatra. The story about a singer being tied to a bandleader and the Mob putting pressure "your signature or your brains are going to be on the contract" to get the singer out of the contract is supposedly based on Sinatra. The rumor is that Sinatra got his part in From Here to Eternity due to something similiar to the horse head scene with Woltz. 

Almost anyone who was a singer or a comic prior to the 1970s probably had some mob ties or dealings with organized crime because organized crime controlled/was heavily involved in nightclubs (venues where up and coming comics and singers performed).

Marylin Monroe (and others like her) came up through the studio system, which wasn't as connected to organized crime the way nightclubs were. If Monroe somehow found herself mixed up in something, she had the studio, and the studio employed fixers who would be able to get her out of whatever she had gotten herself into. 

5 hours ago, debraran said:

I don't see why Gordon can't divorce and they both just live their lives, divorce did happen then.

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

It's easier to see what Hedy gets out of this marriage than what Gordon does. I guess it just looks better on paper if he's a family man than a single guy with different girlfriends all the time. A divorce could stigmatize his image. I know Johnny Carson was divorced numerous times but that didn't really come into play, conversation wise, until the late 70s, early 80s.

The only grounds for divorce in New York at this time was adultry. Divorce would ruin his image. My guess is that the sponsors or the network decided they would rather have a stable, settled, family man as the host instead of a playboy type. I don't know where or how Hedy enters the picture, but she decided she would rather have the cover/shield of a marriage than try to live with another woman as roommates. At the time, the thinking would have been "of course two women need to share an apartment to live, a woman wouldn't make enough on her own to support herself."  If Hedy and her roommate were very careful, they might have been able to live as lesbians undetected. However marrying would put her above suspicion, because at the time, the thinking would have been "Hedy can't possibly be a lesbian, she's married to Gordon Ford." Also, there was a huge difference between what people in the entertainment industry knew and what the general public knew. What was most important to the studios, networks, and sponsors was what the general public knew, which is why Confidential Magazine was so devestating.  

[shapeshifter]

On 4/21/2023 at 12:45 PM, buckboard said:

There is a wonderful documentary - "Bathtubs Over Broadway" - about industrial musicals.  They were really big in the day and many stars - e.g., Chita Rivera, Martin Short, Florence Henderson - got their starts appearing in them.

https://www.broadwayworld.com/article/Streaming-Review-BATHTUBS-OVER-BROADWAY-A-Fantastic-Award-Winning-Documentary-About-Industrial-Musicals-20200728

2 hours ago, Cramps said:

Yes!!! The documentary on them is hilarious and charming! Highly recommended!!! I think it’s on Netflix now. 

I watched it yesterday in two goes. 
I'm not crying; you're crying! 🥲

 

 

3 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

Marylin Monroe (and others like her) came up through the studio system, which wasn't as connected to organized crime the way nightclubs were. If Monroe somehow found herself mixed up in something, she had the studio, and the studio employed fixers who would be able to get her out of whatever she had gotten herself into. 

So, if the show is following this👆 part of history, would Gordon Ford be able to ask the network to "fix" Midge's problem?

 

[Quilt Fairy]

6 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

I think we know where it's going with the split between Susie and Midge. 

According to the 60 Minutes interview, the split is 20-some years in the future.  It's hard to imagine something simmering for that long.  

 

[Francie]

2 hours ago, Crs97 said:

Would he threaten to expose Mai’s abortion?  Only thing I can think of.

No, that's low, and I'm certain Joel would never do that. 

I like the fact that I haven't worked out how it will happen, which means it's no so obvious. But there was a reason they showed last season that Mei's family was too dangerous to get messed up with. 

If I had to imagine the scenario now, it's either that:

1) Mei's family feels some sympathy for Joel and what's he's going through. I don't think they took any pleasure in beating him to a pulp, because he confronted them because he loved their daughter so much. Additionally, he's still their tenant, which makes him part of their extended. He brings them money and keeps their secret. It could just be a "he's a white guy pain in the ass who works upstairs, but he's *our* white guy pain in the ass who works upstairs" kind of thing. 

2) Mei can return home -- whether on screen or off -- and learn or perceive what's going on and intervene. She would take care of the situation in a hot second. 

Look, I'm still waiting for Mei to return, regardless what the show runners say. I've been waiting to hear a "I'm/you're Mei Maisal" line for at least two years now. I'd like to think the show runners have been playing the long game on that. 

[DrSpaceman73]

32 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

According to the 60 Minutes interview, the split is 20-some years in the future.  It's hard to imagine something simmering for that long.  

 

I got the impression it was just some time in that 20 year span not necessarily 20 years later. 

[Quilt Fairy]

1 minute ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

I got the impression it was just some time in that 20 year span not necessarily 20 years later. 

The phrase faux Mike Wallace used was "a 25 year friendship". 

[MerBearHou]

9 hours ago, debraran said:

Midge has some chemistry with Gordon but nothing like with Lenny,

To me, Midge and Gordon play well off of each other because they're both quippy but I feel no real chemistry — just Gordon being flirty and testing out the waters with Midge to see if she’ll give in (probably something he’s done many, many times before).  Lenny (actually, Luke) is 1000x sexier than Gordon will ever be, so that helps tremendously with the Midge-Lenny chemistry.

Edited April 22, 2023 by MerBearHou

[AuntieMame]

7 hours ago, janie jones said:

That was my first thought, too, but what reason do Mei's parents have to help him now?

Well, he is still their tenant. And their daughter did just break his heart. Joel’s clearly gutted by that. Of course they feel bad for him. It couldn’t be helped, but it is hurting Joel. Not saying they aren’t completely loyal to their daughter but there would be an element of “oh you poor bastard” when it comes to Joel. Then there was Chekhov’s mob guys last season who were genuinely afraid of Mei’s family and their associates. That’s how they will save Susie and Midge. Though I wish Midge had behaved better at the show. Sometimes you need to play the long game. Especially if there’s even an outside possibility of being buried in New Jersey marshland. 

[Sarah 103]

4 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

would Gordon Ford be able to ask the network to "fix" Midge's problem?

I have never heard of networks having fixers on the payroll/on-call the way the movie studios did. It's possible that Ford may know people who can help. 

2 hours ago, MerBearHou said:

To me, Midge and Gordon play well off of each other because they're both quippy but I feel no real chemistry — just Gordon being flirty and testing out the waters with Midge to see if she’ll give in (probably something he’s done many, many times before).  Lenny (actually, Luke) is 1000x sexier than Gordon will ever be, so that helps tremendously with the Midge-Lenny chemistry.

Gordon doesn't look at Midge the way Lenny looks at her. Gordon likes her, and will flirt with her, and mabye even sleep with her. What Lenny and Midge share and have is intense and on another plane/dimension. 

[Good Queen Jane]

Maybe Tessie is sleeping with the mob boss. After all, it’s a time-honored tradition for a mobster to put his girlfriend into a show he’s backing. And Tessie’s husband did die from a sudden “heart attack.”

I also don’t think it’s strange if Susie didn’t know Hedy was Gordon’s wife. Does anyone know who is Jimmy Fallon’s wife? And sometimes couples who have different sexual orientations love each other and want to stay married (Leonard Bernstein and his wife come to mind) even if they seek sexual gratification elsewhere. 

[txhorns79]

6 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

The only grounds for divorce in New York at this time was adultery. Divorce would ruin his image.

Someone at Gordon's level would just send his wife to Reno is he wanted a divorce.  It was easy to establish residency there and the divorce laws were much more friendly to divorcing couples than New York.

 

9 hours ago, iMonrey said:

They must have cut something, right? Susie didn't seem surprised or anything when she saw Tessie up there. Apparently there was a brief reference to something between them last episode but I don't remember it and didn't connect it to this. That was just weird.

Yeah, in the last episode, her sister was whining to her about wanting to act.  I presume Susie helped her get this part.  It was strange that no one seemed to acknowledge it, or even that she was in the show. 

[Sarah 103]

34 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

Someone at Gordon's level would just send his wife to Reno is he wanted a divorce.  It was easy to establish residency there and the divorce laws were much more friendly to divorcing couples than New York.

That would solve the problem of obtaining grounds for divorce, but it would still be a scandal and bad for his image. Granted someone in the entertainment industry was different from the average person, but divorce was still something that the network and sponsors would have wanted to avoid at all costs. 

[bybrandy]

Having a wife with whom he has an arrangement lets Gordon Ford have all the sex he wants with whomever crosses his couch without having to get really invested.  Gordon Ford is fine being married until he finds a woman he wants something more with.  Until then the wife is a handy excuse.   

Tess in episode 3 has Suzie looking for something for her because she 1) sings and 2) is bored since her husband died.   Suzie seems to not know that Tess sings or that her brother-in-law has kicked it but she does problem to look for an opportunity for Tess.   

Every comic was mobbed up back them so I'm not sure getting ut from under the guys doesn't just leave Suzie nd Midge paying anther racket.  But I suppose if the story is that Joel goes to Mei's parents to get it to fix it the one leverage he might have to influence them would be his promise not to go to Chicago and try to win Mei back.   otherwise the only reason for Mei' family to get involved is if they want themselves a piece of Suzie and her clients as well.