S05.E20: What's So Funny About Peas, Love and Understanding?

[MarthaEllisanne]

As usual with these folk, the math doesn't math. Dan was right. Darlene has two minutes of management experience, counting Welman. She thinks she is going to be a contender for management in her 50's after five years on the lunch line? (If her smart mouth and 'tude don't get her fired). Mark has not had it easy, but it appears he is prepared to get a college degree however he can. He doesn't need the "classic college experience" Darlene now thinks he must have. Mark could be the lunch lady and get tuition benefits. May take him longer, but lots of people work at universities in order to attend (I did). Plus if the school offers tuition benefits, they most likely offer medical, retirement, etc. benefits. Mark could be well-covered. I recently retired from Higher Education and will add these notes: many universities now require a few years employment before one qualifies for tuition benefits. Also, at a number of universities, services have been outsourced to contractors so food service, custodians, grounds service, etc. are not employees of the university so they do not qualify for tuition benefits.  I still say "Run, Ben, Run!"

[statsgirl]

1 minute ago, MarthaEllisanne said:

As usual with these folk, the math doesn't math. Dan was right. Darlene has two minutes of management experience, counting Welman. She thinks she is going to be a contender for management in her 50's after five years on the lunch line?

This is what struck me about what Dan was saying, even if it totally bypassed Darlene. It's hard enough to get any new job in your fifties but after 5 years on the lunch line and no real managerial experience, Darlene is basically saying goodbye to any management job she might want in the future.

Yet another reason that this is a terrible idea.

[ams1001]

14 hours ago, Mittengirl said:

Not to mention there is most likely no retirement plan or decent healthcare coverage with her food service job.  I would guess Ben has neither of those, as well.  

Good point that I didn't even think of. It's not just the salary but also the corporate manager job probably has better benefits.

12 hours ago, Yeah No said:

My SIL was one, she made horrible money, plus in her case it wasn't even a full time job!

I wondered about that, too. Would this really be a full-time gig? It seems like something that would be shift-based, at the very least. 

3 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

One of my college roommates worked in the cafeteria.  We used to laugh at her hairnet.  She took it well.

One of my friends also worked in the cafeteria for a semester (an early morning shift, too; she spent most of her time hauling buckets of ice to the salad bars). She was never so happy as when she got a job at the Learning Center the next semester (even if it was in the damp basement of one of the older buildings on campus). I worked in our little campus fast-food-type restaurant. My roommate would hug me when I came back to the dorm because "you smell like my dad!" (he used to run a chicken restaurant). 

 

[Snow Apple]

Another thing I thought about how Mark can afford college is after two years of community college, he can get a part time job or internship at a company that will pay for most, if not all, approved classes. I worked for a few companies that offer this program. One of my bosses got her Masters on the company's dime.

I understand he may not want to work the first two years, but most students start looking for a job, internship, or network opportunities after that anyway.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Snow Apple

[Rocknrollzombie]

43 minutes ago, Snow Apple said:

Another thing I thought about how Mark can afford college is after two years of community college, he can get a part time job or internship at a company that will pay for most, if not all, approved classes. I worked for a few companies that offer this program. One of my bosses got her Masters on the company's dime.

I understand he may not want to work the first two years, but most students start looking for a job, internship, or network opportunities after that anyway.

Not episode related but thank you for this information I’m going to ask my company if they have a program like that 

[Egg McMuffin]

5 hours ago, StaceyNotStacie said:

Tyler reminded me of OG Dan Conner from the original show’s early seasons. I was alarmed to see how heavy he was since I’m used to seeing him in replays of the Goonies or Rudy. 

I think Sean Astin is pretty short and it’s hard to keep the weight off when you have that type of a stocky body. One of my friends struggles with weight and he’s always lamenting that he wishes he wishes he were six inches taller. 😀

Katey Sagal played lunch lady “Gross Edna” on “That 70s Show” (she was Hyde’s mother). She was really funny in that.

[TeapotDiva]

Has it ever been mentioned whether Mark's bio-dad David pays child support, and if not, why not?  

[emmyG]

IIRC it's never been addressed at all, presumably because they don't want to involve his character in any sort of storyline.

[Irate Panda]

You know it’s bad when Dan is the one making responsible financial decisions 🙄 Mark could even get tuition assistance working at McDonalds. None of this makes any sense, I don’t even know why I try figuring  it out. 

Edited April 20, 2023 by Irate Panda

[iMonrey]

I did think the scene where Darlene chokes up telling Mark how badly she wants to give him this was really well performed, so kudos for Sara Gilbert for pulling off some really great acting. I did not expect something like to come from her frankly.

That said, the show continues to be tone deaf to how badly the characters come across because of the decisions they make, and it is at the very show's expense. The fact that they just keep making it worse and worse shows how oblivious they are to what they're doing. Anyone with a calculator could have figured out this made zero financial sense under the circumstances. And summarily dismissing all options out of hand just because Darlene is fixated on giving Mark a specific experience doesn't wash either. So Mark doesn't get everything he wants in life, who the hell does?

Darlene is not going to improve her son's life by ruining her own.

[UYI]

I didn't think of this until after the episode aired, but Darlene becoming a lunch lady reminds me of that episode where Roseanne was looking for a new job and Becky says there's an opening for a lunch lady at their school:

"Let's see, serving crappy food to ungrateful teenagers, How would I know I was at work?" 

ETA: Even better: It was actually DARLENE who told her that! I know it's probably a coincidence, but it makes me wonder...

ETA again: Even weirder? It's from the same episode I mentioned in my first post in this thread--where Becky isn't happy about the idea of going to community college over  four year school! Again, it could be a coincidence, but it's an awfully weird one if it is. 

Edited April 21, 2023 by UYI

[SoMuchTV]

I know Dan and a lot of posters here have a valid point, that in five years Darlene will be in her 50s trying to break back into management if she takes the college job, but on the other hand, really? Do we really expect that if she sticks with her current job she’ll be Ms Successful Executive in 5 years?  I mean, past performance and all that. There’s something to be said for taking the bird in the hand, assuming the benefits are really all they’re cracked up to be. Maybe when Mark’s done with school, she can start managing Ben’s expanding chain of stores.  

Which is all to say that everything that happens on this show seems pretty ill advised and unlikely. So I won’t quibble with her taking the college job. 

[Shermie]

Another option would be having Mark work for a year and then apply to college. He’d have a year’s wages saved up if he had any sense (no guarantee, given his economic genetics). In fact, he could take the lunch lady job, save his money, then apply to the college for part-time studies and still work part-time in the cafeteria. He’d get a discount on tuition and he’d have ownership and control over his education. Darlene could continue her preferred managerial job and work their family out of cyclical poverty. These are not radical ideas.

[ichbin]

I can't decide if it is lazy writing or writers who have no actual real life experience of how people in lower income brackets get by.  There have been many logical solutions to the tuition issue already mentioned in the above posts and more in addition to those.  Most of all I don't understand why is it necessary to keep each member of this family down with the exception of mating them off.  

[Egg McMuffin]

2 hours ago, UYI said:

I didn't think of this until after the episode aired, but Darlene becoming a lunch lady reminds me of that episode where Roseanne was looking for a new job and Becky says there's an opening for a lunch lady at their school:

"Let's see, serving crappy food to ungrateful teenagers, How would I know I was at work?" 

 

LOL. I loved the original show, particularly the first four seasons. The dialogue was witty and clever.

[One Tough Cookie]

All I have to say about this car crash is BEN:  RUN FOR THE HILLS, IT'S ONLY GET WORSE!

[mythoughtis]

I started reading the comments as I started watching the show on demand. I normally record it, but a new TIVO box meant I lost all my recordings.  Once I got to the comments about Darlene quitting her management job to go be a cafeteria lady, I stopped watching.  On demand doesn’t let me fast forward and I’m not sitting through that nonsense.  I would like to see Becky date a nice guy ( I saw the very brief interaction when she was asking around about the napkin) so maybe I will catch the repeat episode this summer.  
There is absolutely no reason for this poverty nonsense that they keep writing for the Conner family.  Becky is going to college.  Mark can put himself through school with community college, and then scholarships and loans.  Darlene could help out with books, and his personal needs.  Illinois has very good community colleges  and  public 4 year universities.  It’s affordable.   

 

[Brn2bwild]

9 hours ago, MarthaEllisanne said:

He doesn't need the "classic college experience" Darlene now thinks he must have. 

Especially since, for a sensitive kid like Mark, the "classic" experience could mean him getting bullied by dorm mates and frat boys.  Darlene would really regret it if her sacrifice ended up making Mark hate college and drop out.

[ChicksDigScars]

On 4/19/2023 at 10:08 PM, Rocknrollzombie said:

How long do the writers think whatever is left of their fan base can suspend their belief for storylines that don’t have a ounce of realism. 

I wouldn't say unrealistic. Disclaimer. I work at a four year educational institution. 

Becky is an unmarried, single income with a dependent. Yes, she gets grants and aid for school. She can probably go for free, or close to it. My guess is that she also doesn't claim all her cash tips as income, making her income seem even less when filling out Financial Aid forms. You know, because she's a Conner. And corners are usually cut when it comes to finances, when Roseanne and Dan raised you (I would guess).

Mark is a dependent in a two parent, two income home. It very well could be that Darlene and Ben's combined income is slightly above the rate for grants and aid. My parents were and we weren't rich, but both of them worked. As a result, I started at Community College for my first two years and transferred all credits to a four year school later on. I also moved out of my parent's home my freshman year, so that I established independence. By the time I completed my two years at Community College, I had an associate's degree, I was a single income, single parent (I had morphed from Mark, into Becky, minus the drinking problem), and I got grants and aid to go to a four year institution to finish my Bachelor's. I still had to supplement with student loan's, but not enough to cripple me. Right now, students are being weighed down with debt, because student loan interest have become ridiculous in the past decade. 

I found the story line fairly familiar, not unrealistic. What was unrealistic is Mark not arguing for Community College to spare his mother having to downgrade her job, saying that he could take care of his prerequisites at an accredited CC, then transfer to the four year school with the excellent computer program after he'd lived at home for two years, and saved some Whole Foods money to supplement what Darlene puts away in that same time frame. He'd likely still have some student loans, but could possible qualify for work study at the four year school later on, so he doesn't go into massive debt. 

Yay...it's RUDY (Sean Astin)! I remember him being on campus when they filmed the movie. I had just graduated and was in my first year working here. Now you all know where I work. Did I mention that a four year degree here costs a quarter of a million bucks, now (tuition, room, board)? It's INSANE. 

 

Edited April 21, 2023 by ChicksDigScars

[chitowngirl]

Does Mark get to claim Ben’s income or does he have to use his absent father’s income when filling out financial aid forms?

[Rocknrollzombie]

17 minutes ago, chitowngirl said:

Does Mark get to claim Ben’s income or does he have to use his absent father’s income when filling out financial aid forms?

I don’t think so unless Ben adopted Mark 

From the FASFA site

It doesn't matter if you don't live with your parent or parents; you still must report information about them. The following people are not your parents unless they have legally adopted you: grandparents, foster parents, legal guardians, older brothers or sisters, uncles or aunts, and widowed stepparents.

Edited April 21, 2023 by Rocknrollzombie

[ChicksDigScars]

David works, right? If that's the case, then he has to declared both parent's income.

They mention him so infrequently, I can't remember if he has a job or is unemployed? Or for that matter, pays child support. 

[One Tough Cookie]

Sara Gilbert is executive producer, aamirite.. it she so out of touch with things she thinks this shit is OK?  one would think she's try for a more REALISTIC look into today's  everyday life.

And she {Darlene}, as I recall did'nt finish art school,  thought she dropped out when she got pregnant with Mark. and what is so wrong with Mark taking out some loans to supplement his job at Whole Foods? Most of us {I would think} went that route, I am beginning to think Mark is one Special Snowflake

And Darlene, cry me a river.  You have a history of bad decisions, and dropping out of a management position to sling veg tables, while carrying a mortage, taxes and insurance WITHOUT TELLING YOUR HUSBAND FIRST is so disrespectful to your husband.

[mythoughtis]

33 minutes ago, One Tough Cookie said:

And Darlene, cry me a river.  You have a history of bad decisions, and dropping out of a management position to sling veg tables, while carrying a mortage, taxes and insurance WITHOUT TELLING YOUR HUSBAND FIRST is so disrespectful to your husband.

She’s been disrespectful to Ben from day one. It’s as if the writers think that being respectful equals submissive or subservient.  When two people are legally bound to each other, they are also legally bound by the others financial choices.  Discussion and agreement should be happening before a job change like this is done 

[iMonrey]

I also makes zero sense for Mark to be sleeping in the window seat. Becky should move back in with Dan and Louise, it's not like she's contributing to the mortgage payments or any other household bills.

[Yogisbooboo64]

2 hours ago, ChicksDigScars said:

What was unrealistic is Mark not arguing for Community College to spare his mother having to downgrade her job, saying that he could take care of his prerequisites at an accredited CC, then transfer to the four year school with the excellent computer program after he'd lived at home for two years, and saved some Whole Foods money to supplement what Darlene puts away in that same time frame. He'd likely still have some student loans, but could possible qualify for work study at the four year school later on, so he doesn't go into massive debt. 

I was so pissed off I couldn't express this, you said it perfectly!

[UYI]

17 hours ago, Egg McMuffin said:

LOL. I loved the original show, particularly the first four seasons. The dialogue was witty and clever.

When I looked up where that line was from, I realized that the lunch lady position technically wasn't open yet because of Darlene's line, which might be even funnier than Roseanne's line right after it:

"The lunch lady at school's been sick for a few weeks, I think she's going to die soon...you interested?" 😅

Edited April 21, 2023 by UYI

[ChicksDigScars]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

I also makes zero sense for Mark to be sleeping in the window seat. Becky should move back in with Dan and Louise, it's not like she's contributing to the mortgage payments or any other household bills.

My response was, "WTF, is he Harry Potter? He lives in the window well instead of under the stairs?"

As far as Dan and Louise's home, I realize that they want to keep the Conner family home as close to the original show as possible, for nostalgic reasons, but if a man gets remarried, his new wife isn't going to want to continue to live in the first wife's homage to White Trash. Yeah, they mentioned redecorating the bedroom, but how about the rest of the place? The kitchen still reeks of Rosie.  It looks like Louise is still the girlfriend, spending the night occasionally. Have her change some shit around. 

 

[Shermie]

4 hours ago, ChicksDigScars said:

My guess is that she also doesn't claim all her cash tips as income, making her income seem even less when filling out Financial Aid forms. You know, because she's a Conner. And corners are usually cut when it comes to finances, when Roseanne and Dan raised you (I would guess).

I don’t know of any worker who receives tips who claims them all. Not a one.

48 minutes ago, ChicksDigScars said:

they mentioned redecorating the bedroom, but how about the rest of the place? The kitchen still reeks of Rosie.  It looks like Louise is still the girlfriend, spending the night occasionally. Have her change some shit around. 

I thought Louise did want to redo the place, maybe bring her own furniture in? But the Connor Collective shut her down or some such. Can’t remember.

Louise and Ben should run far away before they become victims of Connor financial stupidity. Louise seemed to have a good life before Dan - a successful band, travel, nice things, financially okay. Ben seemed a lot more successful and secure before Darlene too. Now they’re both clinging to the financial edge with the Connors. If it’s too late for them, they should at least tell Samwise to get away and save himself.

[MsNewsradio]

On 4/19/2023 at 8:45 PM, Browncoat said:

I do wish they'd stop dissing community colleges.  The ones around here at least (including the one I work for) all have transfer agreements with the four-year state universities, and we have to meet their standards.  There is nothing easy about our classes!  They are significantly less expensive, too.

 

I work for a top level university and I would tell ANYONE who has a kid looking at college to seriously consider the two year community college route and then transfer to a four year to finish a BA/BS. It’s insanely cheaper, you can usually get your general requirements out of the way, and no one looking at jobs (unless you are in a VERY specialized field) will care you went anywhere else - your diploma would still ultimately read the four year university. My father did the community college route and was given free ride offers to almost every Ivy when he left. There is a massive stigma regarding cc’s and it’s incredible to me that folks will drop 250K and put themselves in massive debt to come to a school like ours - while we are good, it’s not like you are getting a education THAT much different than you would otherwise (certainly not at that price point, and I say this as both an admin an an alum). Frankly, I’d put many of my father’s former cc professors ahead of ours in the rigors of their coursework (we still keep in touch).

This whole storyline just makes me angry.

[Winston Wolfe]

On 4/19/2023 at 9:25 PM, Starchild said:

On 4/19/2023 at 8:31 PM, Annber03 said:

I loved the talk she and Mark had at the end

Acting-wise, I found that scene fascinating.

I got the sense that when she started to tear up and got that little hitch in her voice, that Sara seemed actually surprised it happened. Then she went with it and was crying for real, and Ames' reaction seemed a little surprised as well, and he got emotional too.

And honestly, so did I. 

I saw the same exact thing you did. Sara really did seem surprised/overwhelmed that the emotions were so strong and just went with it; so did Ames. I get the feeling that there is an IRL fondness between the two. Nice to work with people you honestly care about.

On 4/20/2023 at 11:56 AM, StaceyNotStacie said:

Tyler reminded me of OG Dan Conner from the original show’s early seasons. I was alarmed to see how heavy he was since I’m used to seeing him in replays of the Goonies or Rudy. 

Yeah, Tyler does have an original-recipe Dan look to him. I have Sean Astin's body type and us big guys need love too. I was pleasantly surprised that Becky didn't dismiss him based on appearance because it looked like that was the direction the writers were going in. Thing is, go to the local Walmart on any Saturday morning and you see a dozen couples that look just like them. And that's not a bad thing - I find Lecy Goranson attractive for reasons that kind of elude me. I'd like to see Sean's character stay around, he seems like a good fit for the cast.

Edited April 21, 2023 by Winston Wolfe

[Rocknrollzombie]

Yeah cause Becky totally needs to date someone who looks similar and had the same personality  like  her dad. Talk about daddy issues 

[iMonrey]

I'm actually surprised that after Darlene quit her management job she didn't find out the lunch lady job had already been filled. That'd be pretty much par for the course on this show.

[ButterQueen]

I liked the episode, but I watch just for the nostalgia.  

[QQQQ]

5 hours ago, MsNewsradio said:

I work for a top level university and I would tell ANYONE who has a kid looking at college to seriously consider the two year community college route and then transfer to a four year to finish a BA/BS. It’s insanely cheaper, you can usually get your general requirements out of the way, and no one looking at jobs (unless you are in a VERY specialized field) will care you went anywhere else - your diploma would still ultimately read the four year university. My father did the community college route and was given free ride offers to almost every Ivy when he left. There is a massive stigma regarding cc’s and it’s incredible to me that folks will drop 250K and put themselves in massive debt to come to a school like ours - while we are good, it’s not like you are getting a education THAT much different than you would otherwise (certainly not at that price point, and I say this as both an admin an an alum). Frankly, I’d put many of my father’s former cc professors ahead of ours in the rigors of their coursework (we still keep in touch).

This whole storyline just makes me angry.

School counselor here with almost 30 years college advising experience. Preach.

Lanford has not one but two colleges? And Darlene makes this huge decision without talking to Mark -- this isn't even where Mark wanted to go to college! What is Mark even planning to study? Is it offered at this college which appeared out of nowhere? The way things go on this show, Mark will drop out of high school, rendering all of these painful college storylines moot.

Edited April 22, 2023 by QQQQ

[ofmd]

Yes, it would be wiser if Darlene kept her job, they took out a loan, she'd put away a certain sum each month to help him pay it back etc. And go the community college road for the first two years. But remember, she's a Conner. She'd save those five percent for about two months, then forget about it or sink it into something else.

Remember when she and Ben decided to save Becky's rent for later when she would move out? Now she doesn't pay rent. And they've forgotten that little factoid anyway.

Or when they thought Mark could begin to learn an instrument at age 15 or so, then would get a scholarship for that after 1 or 2 years?

Or when they decided to buy a big old house, tear it down, then let a 70+ year old unhealthy man build them a new one?

Or when...

And stop complaining about ulcers, Ben, you've supported and enabled most of those decisions! You're basically a Conner now.

Also, deadbeat bio dad should help with tuition.

I resent myself for watching this show.

Edited April 21, 2023 by ofmd

[CrystalBlue]

7 hours ago, One Tough Cookie said:

Sara Gilbert is executive producer, aamirite.. it she so out of touch with things she thinks this shit is OK?  one would think she's try for a more REALISTIC look into today's  everyday life.

And she {Darlene}, as I recall did'nt finish art school,  thought she dropped out when she got pregnant with Mark. and what is so wrong with Mark taking out some loans to supplement his job at Whole Foods? Most of us {I would think} went that route, I am beginning to think Mark is one Special Snowflake

And Darlene, cry me a river.  You have a history of bad decisions, and dropping out of a management position to sling veg tables, while carrying a mortage, taxes and insurance WITHOUT TELLING YOUR HUSBAND FIRST is so disrespectful to your husband.

Yeah, Mark folded like a house of cards quickly.  OK Mommy, you take some shit-pay minimum wage part-time job a day after the dream job you waited a month or more to start, so that I can go to a four-year college for the "classic college experience."

And Ben has an ulcer and now chest pains but it's only for four or five years!

😭

[ofmd]

I forgot, absolutely agree that the writers don't care for their characters at all. Darlene was an artsy, intellectual type (granted, mopey, but still). That doesn't change even when you're jaded, you can't work in the art world, and your dreams are shattered. Now I doubt she even writes a diary, let alone anything else, or reads books, or cares about anything beyond her family and veganism. She's introverted/ hates people (fine by me) but doesn't seem to have any inner life to speak of.

Edited April 21, 2023 by ofmd

[Snow Apple]

8 hours ago, One Tough Cookie said:

And Darlene, cry me a river.  You have a history of bad decisions, and dropping out of a management position to sling veg tables, while carrying a mortage, taxes and insurance WITHOUT TELLING YOUR HUSBAND FIRST is so disrespectful to your husband.

Didn't Ben tell her to take the lunch lady job because he knew she'll feel guilty if she didn't? I remember being surprised and dismayed he went there. But I may be confused though because the whole thing annoyed me.

[ofmd]

He even said she'd never be happy again if she didn't do this!

Then he did the passive-aggressive thing: "Don't mind me, my potential ulcer, and impending death! Do it!" (paraphrasing)

Edited April 21, 2023 by ofmd

[emmyG]

3 minutes ago, ofmd said:

He even said she'd never be happy again if she didn't do this!

Which is true, but she'll also never be happy again if she does.

[andidante]

23 minutes ago, emmyG said:

Which is true, but she'll also never be happy again if she does.

She's never happy though! LOL

[ams1001]

51 minutes ago, Snow Apple said:

Didn't Ben tell her to take the lunch lady job because he knew she'll feel guilty if she didn't? I remember being surprised and dismayed he went there. But I may be confused though because the whole thing annoyed me.

He did, but Dan's the one who told him about it. She didn't even discuss it with him first.

[One Tough Cookie]

59 minutes ago, ofmd said:

He even said she'd never be happy again if she didn't do this!

 

umm Ben, have you MET Darlene?  When was she ever happy?

[ofmd]

1 minute ago, One Tough Cookie said:

umm Ben, have you MET Darlene?  When was she ever happy?

When she played baseball with her dad?

[izabella]

She was pretty happy after her one day at her new job.

[One Tough Cookie]

32 minutes ago, ofmd said:

When she played baseball with her dad?

two  shay!

eta: I believe I was wrong when I said  I thought she dropped out of art school with mark. No, it was Harris

Edited April 22, 2023 by One Tough Cookie

[Ottis]

You never trade a better thing for a worse thing. You could argue maybe the management job wouldn’t work out, and that’s true for the lunch lady job as well. Heck, Mark could flunk out. And they never addressed how much more the management job paid, so hard to do the math on that and benefits comparison, but it likely isn’t pretty. Plus she has burned bridges now.

These are the kinds of decisions that end with the kids burdened with ill-prepared parents later in life.

[QQQQ]

Young people have lots of options when it comes to paying for college, plus time is on their side. The same cannot be said for middle aged, lower middle class workers with spotty employment histories saving for retirement. 

[Rocknrollzombie]

35 minutes ago, QQQQ said:

Young people have lots of options when it comes to paying for college, plus time is on their side. The same cannot be said for middle aged, lower middle class workers with spotty employment histories saving for retirement. 

This is true, some of my Friends are working at Amazon, other types of warehouse. Some others when into nursing and got their certification in a year or two. Some others did trade or other type of career training. But all of them were going to school and working at the same time. None of us relied on our parents to pay everything or sacrifice their jobs.