S05.E06: Ipatiev House

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Eager to lead a newly democratic Russia, President Yeltsin tries to win the Queen's support while she navigates new rifts in her marriage with Philip.

Dropping on Wednesday, November 9, 2022.

[Roseanna]

The murder of the last Czar and his family, burial of bodies and pre-exhumation is shown - don't watch of you are vulnerable.

While it's true that Geoge V forbid the sanctuary to his cousin with his family, fearing that their impopularity would weaken the British monarchy (nice that the Queen knew the reason better than lady Romsey after reading so many history books!), it was the Bolsheviks who murdered them, fearing that the Whites would save them and use the Nicholas as their figure-head. When the Provisional Government was in power, they had no immediate danger, but of course there was a possible danger on the basis of the historical examples like Charles I, Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette. 

[Helena Dax]

16 hours ago, Roseanna said:

The murder of the last Czar and his family, burial of bodies and pre-exhumation is shown - don't watch of you are vulnerable.

While it's true that Geoge V forbid the sanctuary to his cousin with his family, fearing that their impopularity would weaken the British monarchy (nice that the Queen knew the reason better than lady Romsey after reading so many history books!), it was the Bolsheviks who murdered them, fearing that the Whites would save them and use the Nicholas as their figure-head. When the Provisional Government was in power, they had no immediate danger, but of course there was a possible danger on the basis of the historical examples like Charles I, Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette. 

Yeah, I think the Bolsheviks would have never agreed to let them go. And let's not forget that the Tsar didn't give a fuck about its people. Even suggesting that their deaths were the BRF's fault is a shitty thing for the show to do.

Not sure I buy the marital problems between Elizabeth and Philip at this point. To me, it feels only like something the show wants to do every season to spice things up. And while I didn't know anything about Penny until I watched this episode, the things I've been reading about her make me think that there was nothing inappropriate between them. She seems to have been very close to the whole family. I might be mistaken, of course, but it's the feeling I got from the whole situation.

[Roseanna]

20 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

Yeah, I think the Bolsheviks would have never agreed to let them go. And let's not forget that the Tsar didn't give a fuck about its people.

He was mostly guilty of weakness which is an usuitable quality for an autocrat. He would have been OK as a constititional monarch. like his cousin George V. 

Regardless his actions or non-actions, he would have been murdered anyway, as well as his wife (who was *not* pro-German), their little son and their daughters who had no right to the throne, not to speak of their entourage, a physician, a cook, a lady-in-waiting who had to be silenced as wittnesses.  

[peridot]

I was crying at that beginning scene.  It was so sad to see the Romanov's belief that their cousin was saving them.

Elizabeth did seem to be behind the times in this episode.  She seems to be fine with historical matters, but new techniques are foreign to her.  I laughed when she kept saying "D.N.A", rather than "DNA".

I'm surprised the Russian president would be so bold to insult the Queen like that, when someone in her retinue could have known Russian.

I felt for Elizabeth when Philip said he sought intellectual and spiritual companionship elsewhere. 

[MSterling]

1 hour ago, peridot said:

I felt for Elizabeth when Philip said he sought intellectual and spiritual companionship elsewhere. 

That's one thing it appears Diana and the Queen have in common. They're both more into their husbands than the husbands are to them.

[Ellaria]

I enjoy the episodes when The Crown visits past actions of the Windsors and attempts to place them in context of current (in show) events. I think that it was important to show that King George and Queen Mary refused sanctuary to the Romanovs but I agree that, regardless, they likely would never have left Russia alive. I also don’t think that the show was suggesting that the murders of the Romanovs were the fault of the King and Queen. Rather, I think they were showing us their desire for self-preservation above all else.

13 hours ago, peridot said:

I'm surprised the Russian president would be so bold to insult the Queen like that, when someone in her retinue could have known Russian.

Again, this is in context of a highly fictionalized show, but I was hoping for a reveal that she did understand everything he said.

The relationship between Penny and Philip seemed sweet, innocent and fulfilling for two lonely people. I can, however, understand Elizabeth’s feelings. It’s not impossible to realize that she and Philip may have shared love and support in their later years but not many common interests. 

Edited November 11, 2022 by Ellaria Sand

[Marley]

I felt bad for the Queen. Stupid Philip lol. Philip just always seems so whiny in the show complaining about being lonely etc. Cry me a river you rich baby. Who knows what’s true but in the show he can get annoying. The queen and the dogs were cute.

There should be a show of King George V like this one. From when he is born to him growing up and becoming King and having a family and everything that happens. I’d watch that.

[Miss chi chi]

IMHO Imelda has mean eyes. I’m sure it’s no reflection on the actress’s real personality. The other queens had very compassionate eyes.

[Roseanna]

54 minutes ago, Marley said:

I felt bad for the Queen. Stupid Philip lol. Philip just always seems so whiny in the show complaining about being lonely etc. Cry me a river you rich baby. Who knows what’s true but in the show he can get annoying. The queen and the dogs were cute.

Philip has been whining before, but don't think that he did it now, he just stated facts: he had lost or given up much: his name and career, his country and faith. Why are people so emphatic towards Diana but not Philip who had already as a teenager lost his parents and his beloved sister and sent to a school in a foreign country?

In this episode, Philip was empathic and innovative: he unselfishly helped Penny and got in her an intellectual companion Elizabeth couldn't and wouldn't be - I can't undertand what's wrong with that as Elizabeth didn't even try to  be a bit curious (yeah, I understand that after reading state papers and meeting people she wanted peace and quiet and liked the companionship of horses and dogs which never demended anyting of her). While it's an ideal that the couple has common interests, it's a sign of love to let one's spouse get from the somebody else what one can't give him/her.

[Trillian]

I really enjoyed this episode. I thought the  opening scenes in 1917 were so well done, capturing both the brutality (admittedly, hard to watch) of the Romanov’s murder and the juxtaposed nonchalance of their British cousins.  Whether or not the British could actually have gotten the Imperial family out, George V didn’t even try to save “dear cousin Nicky” and his family. .

Elizabeth comes across as a supreme idiot for not knowing about her family’s lack of response - that was well-known by then by anyone who had even a passing knowledge of the history.   I think the show is painting her in a most unflattering light - or maybe it’s just that I see Professor Umbridge’s smug smile and want to slap it off.  I haven’t warmed to Imelda Staunton in the role yet.  

A bit of an annoying note was seeing the characters explain each other’s familial relationships to each other eg “your grandmother, Princess Victoria of Hesse”.  Too expository for my liking. 

[Marley]

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Philip has been whining before, but don't think that he did it now, he just stated facts: he had lost or given up much: his name and career, his country and faith. Why are people so emphatic towards Diana but not Philip who had already as a teenager lost his parents and his beloved sister and sent to a school in a foreign country?

In this episode, Philip was empathic and innovative: he unselfishly helped Penny and got in her an intellectual companion Elizabeth couldn't and wouldn't be - I can't undertand what's wrong with that as Elizabeth didn't even try to  be a bit curious (yeah, I understand that after reading state papers and meeting people she wanted peace and quiet and liked the companionship of horses and dogs which never demended anyting of her). While it's an ideal that the couple has common interests, it's a sign of love to let one's spouse get from the somebody else what one can't give him/her.

I don’t buy into the Princess Diana is a total victim thing I think both her and Charles were at fault. Maybe I just thought Phillip seemed to be being weird about it. Of course it’s my own take. Just kind of funny the only companionship he could find was a younger pretty woman lol.

[dubbel zout]

I couldn't freeze frame the end credits, but if the show didn't use the same actor for George and Nicky, that was a shame, given they were doppelgängers. In some photos it's nearly impossible to tell who's who.

Prince Michael of Kent's DNA was also used to help identify the Romanovs, as his maternal grandmother was a first cousin of Tsar Nicolas. And Prince Michael has always borne a striking resemblance to George and Nicky.

[Snazzy Daisy]

This is quite an emotional episode. The brutal murders in the opening, plus Phillip and Lilibet drifting apart.

Phillip was a bit condescending during dinner when talking about DNA sequencing. Did Lilibet just pretend she didn’t feel anything?

Quote

QE2: “Oh, you knew that?”

PP: “Yes.”

QE2: “How?”

PP: “I read.”

Quote

PP: “Can you be more specific? Hair? Blood? Saliva? Did you ask?”

QE2: “No.”

PP: “Why not? Weren’t you curious? Not even a little bit?”

Philip requesting Lilibet to legitimize his female companionship to the public wasn’t surprising. Everything for the system. And using their church visits for PR moves was their go-to tactics for years, still is.

I appreciate the scenes where both Phillip and Lilibet didn’t say a word to describe their feelings but their emotions were on full display through their eyes. Love those moments! ❤️

Edited November 12, 2022 by SnazzyDaisy

[SnapHappy]

Elizabeth's moment of emotion was very well done. 

Though to me, there hasn't been a single more evocative moment than Season 3, Olivia Coleman playing Elizabeth, in the aftermath of the Aberfan coal mine disaster.  She hears the hymn and sheds a single, perfect, heartbreaking tear.  Olivia set that bar impossibly high.   

Jonny Lee is outstanding as J. Major.  Such a hottie, now completely believable as a chunky, middle-aged Prime Minister. 

And best scene of the show, Lilibet frolicking with her Corgis.  Such sweet dogs and a very humanizing scene. 

Edited November 12, 2022 by SnapHappy

[anniebird]

The actor playing Boris Yeltsin looked exactly like him. And the show's writer seems to really dislike QE 2 - why else would he make her appear to be so dim? 

[SoWindsor]

The show heavily implied that the romanovs would have lived if King George stepped in. That’s definitely my interpretation of it based on what I watched. it’s hard to believe that Penny would have been having an affair with Philip because of the age difference. Philip just looks like an old man. Where is Penny looks young. I just have a hard time believing they were intimate. 

[Spartan Girl]

That opening sequence was so horrible. I didn’t need to see that. The Bolsheviks were monsters. Nicholas may have been a horrible leader, but that will never justify brutally murdering those children.

Pretty ballsy of the Russian PM to insult Elizabeth like that. He was lucky that, unlike Daenerys Targaryen, she didn’t speak the language.

I’m torn. On one hand, Philip was being a jerk. But on the other hand, he was right to stand his ground where Penny was concerned because he wasn’t doing anything wrong.

Being a leader requires tough decisions. I agree that even if the king and queen tried to help the Romanovs, the Bosheviks never would have let them leave alive.

To close on a shallow note, I loved Elizabeth’s sapphire tiara and necklace set. 😍😍😍😍

[dubbel zout]

50 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Pretty ballsy of the Russian PM to insult Elizabeth like that. He was lucky that, unlike Daenerys Targaryen, she didn’t speak the language.

During the group photo, right? Wasn't Elizabeth's translator right there, next to Yeltsin's? I'd have thought she'd have said something to someone after the photo, if only as a head's up.

[greekmom]

How different history would be if George saved his cousins the Romanovs or they were allowed to be exiled in Europe instead of slaughtered. 
The blue dress that the Queen was wearing coupled with the jewels and crown were lovely at the state dinner in Russia.
I was hoping someone would have translated what Yeltsin said about the Queen and the palace to the Queen or if she spoke Russian and turned to him and insulted him during the photo.
I did laugh at the conversation of Philip and how he was "a mongrel". The British monarchy line isn't as pure as the Queen Mum or the Queen would like to believe.
 

[BloomsburyRez]

2 hours ago, greekmom said:

How different history would be if George saved his cousins the Romanovs or they were allowed to be exiled in Europe instead of slaughtered. 

I was disappointed that they didn’t mention that Phillip’s mother Princess Alice was trying different routes to rescue the four girls. She reasoned that she couldn’t help her aunt, the Tsarina and probably not Alexei either. But she really hoped they’d let her and her husband bring the girls to the Isle of Wight. The Mountbattens did spend a great deal of time with the Romanovs. 

[ahpny]

7 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

That opening sequence was so horrible. I didn’t need to see that. The Bolsheviks were monsters. Nicholas may have been a horrible leader, but that will never justify brutally murdering those children.

I was hoping the show wouldn't go there. But it was even worse than shown. It is indeed historical accurate that the Bolshevik soldiers bayoneted the daughters. I think it is historically accurate that the daughters had been wearing diamonds sown into their clothes - for smuggling and preservation purposes - and those jewels inadvertently acted, to some limited extent, like bullet proof vests. The soldiers were freaked out initially as at least some of their bullets seemed to bounce off them, seemingly revealing some divine protection thing going on after all. While I suppose the Bolshevik soldiers could have simply shot them in their heads, the Bolshevik soldiers opted to bayonet them to make sure they were dead. Gruesome indeed.

I had always thought that the decision to rescind the invitation to resettle in England was made by the British government for foreign policy reasons, somewhat like the US first extending, then retracting, an invitation to the deposed Shah of Iran to come to the US for medical treatment in 1979.  No one knows whether the Romanovs would have made it out safely had their invitation not been rescinded, but as shown in this episode, it was indeed George V (or his mother) who played a significant part in rescinding that invitation. I was unaware of that until seeing this episode. I would have thought this was more of foreign policy decision that would be left wholly to the government. 

[paramitch]

The opening scene about the poor Romanovs was so much more brutal than this show usually goes! That was very hard to watch. Especially with the family thinking they were about to be saved. Aghghg.

I enjoyed this episode, but again, I just think Peter Morgan doesn't like Elizabeth as a person -- or quite get what makes Philip and Elizabeth work. I do think there was love there, more than what we see. I felt like Menzies/Colman were far more believable last season versus what we're getting this season, in terms of their relationship (basically, that yes, Philip strayed with a pretty woman on occasion, but that he also did love and respect Elizabeth).

The final scene was incredibly acted, but oh, Philip's final conversation with Elizabeth was shockingly cruel, to me, unnecessarily so, and at levels I didn't think the episode supported.

I also think it's obvious Peter Morgan does not believe in platonic friendships -- or rather, that they are still somehow betrayals? This was just such a very strange episode. 

On 11/10/2022 at 3:49 AM, Helena Dax said:

And while I didn't know anything about Penny until I watched this episode, the things I've been reading about her make me think that there was nothing inappropriate between them. She seems to have been very close to the whole family. I might be mistaken, of course, but it's the feeling I got from the whole situation.

Apparently, the family has reacted with anger to the show's depictions of Penny and the slight occasional implication that she may have been romantic or inappropriate with Philip. 

On 11/10/2022 at 7:29 PM, MSterling said:

That's one thing it appears Diana and the Queen have in common. They're both more into their husbands than the husbands are to them.

I do think this is true, although I think in Elizabeth's case, it's more complicated. I do think Philip always loved her. I just think he also took a very classic cosmopolitan/military view of marriage (when he wasn't home he was single, basically). Which is yucky but not exactly original.

On 11/11/2022 at 6:00 AM, Ellaria Sand said:

Again, this is in context of a highly fictionalized show, but I was hoping for a reveal that she did understand everything he said.

The relationship between Penny and Philip seemed sweet, innocent and fulfilling for two lonely people. I can, however, understand Elizabeth’s feelings. It’s not impossible to realize that she and Philip may have shared love and support in their later years but not many common interests. 

I felt like Imelda Staunton played that so well, though -- she had this tiny little smile. I absolutely do think she understood him. I did badly wish she would have spoken up in Russian at the end, to let him know that. (He was so horribly rude!)

I like the relationship between Philip and Penny and wish the show just wouldn't have these very weird undercurrents about it -- it's like it wants to show it as a friendship (BUT MAYBE MORE) without saying it directly.

Elizabeth's hurt and anger at her husband having a friendship with Penny seemed sort of odd to me, and oddly written, as was Philip's anger at her in the end. I think they were genuinely having to navigate new paths in their marriage around this point, especially as Philip found new interests to replace polo, etc., but I think it was a little clumsily done here.

On 11/11/2022 at 11:44 AM, Miss chi chi said:

IMHO Imelda has mean eyes. I’m sure it’s no reflection on the actress’s real personality. The other queens had very compassionate eyes.

I emphatically don't see this. Imelda is an amazing actress, and her eyes have moved me many times this season. The irony is, I found Olivia Colman so much colder last season (and she is a very warm actress normally for me).

On 11/11/2022 at 11:45 AM, Roseanna said:

In this episode, Philip was empathic and innovative: he unselfishly helped Penny and got in her an intellectual companion Elizabeth couldn't and wouldn't be - I can't undertand what's wrong with that as Elizabeth didn't even try to  be a bit curious (yeah, I understand that after reading state papers and meeting people she wanted peace and quiet and liked the companionship of horses and dogs which never demended anyting of her). While it's an ideal that the couple has common interests, it's a sign of love to let one's spouse get from the somebody else what one can't give him/her.

What I found interesting here was that there does seem to have been some fact here -- that Elizabeth was more focused on society, on dogs and horses, and less focused on world events or history, while Philip was kind of a nerd that way and he really enjoyed that stuff.

What I liked about this episode was the way it ended -- with Philip watching affectionately, smiling as Elizabeth played with the dogs. There was still a lot of affection there even if they were not always on the same intellectual wavelength.

15 hours ago, SnazzyDaisy said:

This is quite an emotional episode. The brutal murders in the opening, plus Phillip and Lilibet drifting apart.

I appreciate the scenes where both Phillip and Lilibet didn’t say a word to describe their feelings but their emotions were on full display through their eyes. Love those moments! ❤️

Two absolutely amazing actors. This show does a great job with that. Just super actors, even in small roles.

13 hours ago, SnapHappy said:

Elizabeth's moment of emotion was very well done. 

Though to me, there hasn't been a single more evocative moment than Season 3, Olivia Coleman playing Elizabeth, in the aftermath of the Aberfan coal mine disaster.  She hears the hymn and sheds a single, perfect, heartbreaking tear.  Olivia set that bar impossibly high.   

Jonny Lee is outstanding as J. Major.  Such a hottie, now completely believable as a chunky, middle-aged Prime Minister. 

And best scene of the show, Lilibet frolicking with her Corgis.  Such sweet dogs and a very humanizing scene. 

I loved the final scene, and agree on Jonny Lee Miller -- he's always that good, and he's so quiet about it. Not showy at all. 

I liked that moment with Colman, but I confess she was not always a successful Elizabeth for me. She was just so cold, and Colman is normally such a warm actress, so it seemed to be a directorial choice.

11 hours ago, anniebird said:

And the show's writer seems to really dislike QE 2 - why else would he make her appear to be so dim? 

I don't think Peter Morgan likes Elizabeth as a person -- or finds her interesting -- at all. I think his overwhelming focus with the show has been on everyone around her, on "The Crown," not on Elizabeth, the person. Which is a shame -- I think he has missed some real opportunities there, honestly.

[Cheezwiz]

On 11/11/2022 at 5:22 PM, dubbel zout said:

couldn't freeze frame the end credits, but if the show didn't use the same actor for George and Nicky, that was a shame, given they were doppelgängers. In some photos it's nearly impossible to tell who's who.

Agreed! I was hoping they'd do that too! In real life, the two kings looked like identical twins rather than cousins! The actor playing the Czar in this episode was a much closer approximation than the actor playing King George.

The depiction of the murder of the Romanovs was horrific. I had always been under the impression they had been murdered by firing squad only (which is awful enough). Even if King George had sent a ship, it's probable they never would have escaped the country.

As someone who was fascinated by the Romanov story, I remember following the story about the bodies being unearthed at the time, but didn't know Prince Philiip played a role in DNA identification, so that was really interesting.

On a completely different note, they totally nailed the casting for Boris Yeltsin! Hilarious! His main legacy seems to be that everyone remembers him as a boorish falling-down drunk. I was also hoping for a little reveal that the Queen understood his insults, as she struck me as someone who might be sly that way.

[rur]

16 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

I was also hoping for a little reveal that the Queen understood his insults, as she struck me as someone who might be sly that way.

If that incident really happened, it was extremely foolish to speak insultingly when the interpreter was standing right there (and was given a line during the trash talk to let the audience know she was within hearing range). I think Staunton played the scene as the Queen knowing what they were doing, even if she didn't know exactly what was being said, but filing it away for possible use at a later date. 

Edited November 14, 2022 by rur

[greekmom]

8 hours ago, paramitch said:

Apparently, the family has reacted with anger to the show's depictions of Penny and the slight occasional implication that she may have been romantic or inappropriate with Philip. 

I am NOT a Philip fan but I do give props for the fact that he got Penny out of her depression for the loss of her daughter and gave her some purpose with learning the carriage riding thing and getting her into history and reading/studying.  We wouldn't know for sure the extent of the relationship but it just seemed more of a father/daughter role and a warm friendship than a romantic one.

[Calvada]

Aren't there interpreters on hand from both countries?  Or is it only politicians who don't trust whether the other country's interpreter is accurately reporting what the politician is saying?  I cannot believe that there was not someone on the British side in that group who knew exactly what Yeltsin was saying.  Or that someone from the Russian side would have attempted to stop him from saying such things in front of people who may have understood he was insulting the Queen.

[dubbel zout]

10 hours ago, paramitch said:

What I found interesting here was that there does seem to have been some fact here -- that Elizabeth was more focused on society, on dogs and horses, and less focused on world events or history, while Philip was kind of a nerd that way and he really enjoyed that stuff.

What I found unfair about Philip's rather snotty "I read" comment was that Elizabeth spends her days reading all those government documents she's required to deal with. And I'm sure she's always prepping for the next day's engagements, which could mean more reading for background. Maybe at the end of the day playing with her dogs is more relaxing to her than reading about DNA. Shut up, Philip.

[Conotocarious]

2 hours ago, greekmom said:

I am NOT a Philip fan but I do give props for the fact that he got Penny out of her depression for the loss of her daughter and gave her some purpose with learning the carriage riding thing and getting her into history and reading/studying.  We wouldn't know for sure the extent of the relationship but it just seemed more of a father/daughter role and a warm friendship than a romantic one.

Yeah, the depiction is absolutely fine and actually improved my opinion of Phillip.

[paramitch]

5 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

What I found unfair about Philip's rather snotty "I read" comment was that Elizabeth spends her days reading all those government documents she's required to deal with. And I'm sure she's always prepping for the next day's engagements, which could mean more reading for background. Maybe at the end of the day playing with her dogs is more relaxing to her than reading about DNA. Shut up, Philip.

Yeah, I didn't like that line either and am not entirely sure I buy that Philip would say that to her, in that way? I mean, we don't actually know these people or what they are like in private, but we do have enough information (as the public) to know of their genuine affection for each other.

I just didn't really care for the way Morgan in this episode had Philip repeatedly treating Elizabeth with this palpable coldness and resentment, like she had kept him from living a life of the mind, when Philip has certainly always seemed to have tremendous freedom on that front. The way it was written just felt off to me. But that has been one of the things that frustrates me about the show, even while I love it -- if there is a "side" to be picked in Elizabeth and Philip, Morgan is palpably almost always on Philip's side.

I think their growing apart in this period could have been more sensitively presented, personally. And I think the way it was presented (all in service to Philip's story) is -- the more I think about it -- really unfair to both Penny and Elizabeth.

[truthful]

On 11/13/2022 at 5:40 AM, SoWindsor said:

The show heavily implied that the romanovs would have lived if King George stepped in. That’s definitely my interpretation of it based on what I watched. it’s hard to believe that Penny would have been having an affair with Philip because of the age difference. Philip just looks like an old man. Where is Penny looks young. I just have a hard time believing they were intimate. 

It seemed like Penny was almost like a Diana replacement for Phillip. A young charming woman who could make him feel youthful in his old age. I'm sure if Diana hadn't wanted to get out he would have taken her for carriage driving lessons.

[katie9918]

There is absolutely no way anyone could have saved the Romanovs after the Bolsheviks took over.

[andromeda331]

Okay, I have to be that person. They were correct that Nicholas was killed immediately but so was Alexandra. Alexei was surprisingly tough to kill considering he had hemophilia and so were the girls. Ironically the jewels they sewed into their dresses so they wouldn't be stolen but also so they'd could sell later in exile turned out to make it harder for them to kill and their murders more brutal. 

I'm surprised they showed George V had refused to let the Romanovs come. That's usually omitted from a lot of his biographies but only started getting added in the last couple decades. He original said yes but then changed his mind and told the Prime Minister to recind the offer. I do wish he hadn't done that even though it would haven't changed anything. As others have pointed out there was no way they were going to be let go. Queen Ena of Spain and her husband did offer to let them come to Spain but were told no. Princess Alice did try to get the girls. 

Philip's every bit of an asshole as Charles and Margaret. "I read" so does your wife idiot. He really doesn't need to be. He could have explained his friendship with Penny without putting down Elizabeth but he did. She'd understand having friends with the same interest like her and Porchy love horses which Philip took so well. Oh, wait. Then we get the usual Philip blaming Elizabeth for everything he had to give up when he married her. You knew that when you married her you asshole. Sure no one expected George VI to die when he did but none of it was a surprise. As much as I hate Margaret blaming Elizabeth for everything. No expected Edward VIII to abdicate making changing everything for Elizabeth, Margaret and their parents. Philip has no excuse he knew when he married her she would be Queen. He's still bitching about it decades later. Shut up and grow up Philip. He's like Charles in away they both take things further then they need to in how they treat their wives. Sometimes I really wish Elizabeth would go off on him. None of this is what she wanted either. She wanted to be a naval wife and raised horses. Philip complains that she wasn't interested in DNA except she was until he crapped all over her. 

I don't buy that Elizabeth didn't know what Boris was saying but I do like the translaters trying to be diplomatic. I bet that happens a lot. I am glad they included the massacred and identifying of the bodies. I always found that really interesting. The talk with Penny about what's in the genes. My brother and I've had similar talks about it when we did the Ancestry.com test. It really is incredible what they can do and how they can link people. I always liked that Philip gave his DNA to find out whether the bodies were them or not. 

[Lady Whistleup]

I'm actually team Philip here. We've seen nothing inappropriate with the relationship between Philip and Penny. Furthermore, when two people have been married for 47 years, it's exceedingly naive and even selfish to believe that a spouse will be the EVERYTHING for that one person. People are allowed to have different friends, different interests, as long as no boundaries are crossed and people behave appropriately. 

Otherwise, I thought this episode was mostly wonderful. I feel like the episode captured just how curious people were about "D.N.A" as the Queen pronounces it. I liked Imelda Staunton having more to do. I feel like this season QE is almost a supporting character. I did think it was nice she invited Penny to Sandringham. This is the sort of grace and practicality that Charles and Diana could have used in their marriage.

The stuff with the Romanovs was hard to watch. Those poor children.

[PRgal]

I spent the episode thinking whether I should be annoyed at how the Queen pronounced DNA or not.  Does anyone know if she actually did that rather than the "normal" way like everyone else?

[PeterPirate]

From HistoryExtra.com:  The Crown S5 E6 real history: the Romanovs’ murder, and Philip’s “spiritual companionship”

According to the show, there is written evidence that Queen Mary was responsible for the decision against bringing the Romanovs to Britain.  I find that extremely hard to believe, since there are multiple letters from King George expressing his own disquiet with the notion.  Pics or it didn't happen, show. 

[Jan Spears]

On 11/13/2022 at 6:39 PM, katie9918 said:

There is absolutely no way anyone could have saved the Romanovs after the Bolsheviks took over.

17 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

As others have pointed out there was no way they were going to be let go.

Nicholas, Alexandra and their children were doomed long before the October Revolution brought the Bolsheviks to permanent power.

George V abandoning Nicholas, Alexandra and the family to their fates remains a severe mark against his character. But offering asylum and then rescinding it was irrelevant to the family's final fate. The last French ambassador to the Imperial court, Maurice Paleologue, wrote this in his Ambassador's Memoirs:

"During the last few days a rumour has spread among the mob that "Citizen Romanov" [Nicholas] and his wife "Alexandra the German," are working secretly for a restoration of autocracy, with the connivance of "moderate" ministers. The [Petersburg] Soviet accordingly demanded the immediate arrest of the sovereigns yesterday evening. The Provisional Government yielded to its desires."

Paleologue wrote this nine days into the February Revolution.

The Bolsheviks were never going to let the Romanovs escape their grasp. In exile, they would serve as a living challenge to what was more than a change in government - the successive revolutions represented an entirely new vision of the world. That's why the Bolsheviks killed every Romanov they could lay hands on, including Nicholas's younger brother, Grand Duke Michael, and Alexandra's older sister, the saintly Grand Duchess Elizabeth (who was an Orthodox nun at the time and whose husband, Grand Duke Sergei, had been assassinated in the Revolution of 1905). (Elizabeth, like Alexandra, was also Prince Philip's great aunt.)

To his credit, George V did come to the aid of Nicholas's mother, the Dowager Empress Marie Feodorovna, who, along with other Romanovs, had sheltered uneasily in Crimea while they waited to see which side would prevail in the Russian Civil War. (Besides being Nicholas's mother, Marie Feodorovna ["Aunt Minnie"] was also George V's aunt - Marie and George's mother, Queen Alexandra, were sisters.) Realizing that the Bolsheviks were advancing on Crimea, George ordered a British warship to rescue his aunt and the other Romanovs. He also provided for Marie Feodorovna's financial upkeep for the remainder of her life.

[sistermagpie]

On 11/12/2022 at 2:40 PM, SoWindsor said:

 it’s hard to believe that Penny would have been having an affair with Philip because of the age difference. Philip just looks like an old man. Where is Penny looks young. I just have a hard time believing they were intimate. 

And it seems like she flatters is ego sometimes in ways Elizabeth wouldn't, like when she was talking about how he was the key to the bodies rather than just oh, you have the DNA they can use to identify it. I didn't think they were having an affair, but that kind of exchange doesn't say "intellectual" or "spiritual" companion, it says this person gives me the kind of attention I crave.

And I admit, even knowing about DNA (I read too!) it wouldn't have struck me to ask what kind of sample they needed from him. I'd probably assume it was a cheek swab, but why be that curious about it? The DNA is the point.

The show's always been very sympathetic to Philip, it seems to me. A whole ep on his men's discussion club while Anne's out there saving herself from kidnappers!

On 11/12/2022 at 3:44 PM, dubbel zout said:

During the group photo, right? Wasn't Elizabeth's translator right there, next to Yeltsin's? I'd have thought she'd have said something to someone after the photo, if only as a head's up.

Yeah, he wasn't hiding anything. They were surrounded by interpreters and the UK could absolutely use that against him any time they liked. 

The Romanov murders will never not be grisly compelling. If it was just Nicholas and Alexandra it would be totally different, but those children int he basement and the jeweled bullet proof vests and the bayonets. It's one of the starkest markers of how much times have changed. That is, that at that time so many European royals were just one big family (with a gene for hemophilia) and however much like gods they may have thought themselves it could all come crashing down very violently. There is something fitting about history wanting to create a soap opera where it wasn't appropriate there too. And Philip, with his bloodline, is a remnant of it. 

I remember seeing how they used his DNA and thought it was cool--it's a great focus for an episode. One where the connection of the history of the family really is entertwined with the history of Europe. Nothing else about the Russian revolution story tops that basement (imo) in the imagination of the public.

[qtpye]

On 11/12/2022 at 3:44 PM, greekmom said:

The blue dress that the Queen was wearing coupled with the jewels and crown were lovely at the state dinner in Russia.

That was gorgeous.

On 11/12/2022 at 6:18 PM, BloomsburyRez said:

I was disappointed that they didn’t mention that Phillip’s mother Princess Alice was trying different routes to rescue the four girls. She reasoned that she couldn’t help her aunt, the Tsarina and probably not Alexei either. But she really hoped they’d let her and her husband bring the girls to the Isle of Wight. The Mountbattens did spend a great deal of time with the Romanovs. 

Princess Alice really seems like a remarkable woman.

[Magnumfangirl]

On 11/11/2022 at 1:44 PM, Miss chi chi said:

IMHO Imelda has mean eyes. I’m sure it’s no reflection on the actress’s real personality. The other queens had very compassionate eyes.

I agree.  I keep thinking QEII is a victim of Invasion of the Body Snatchers.  Imelda looks nothing like her.   Olivia didn't look much like her either, but I didn't find her off putting.  Claire is still the standard bearer.  This episode was pretty meh.......

[BlackberryJam]

13 hours ago, Magnumfangirl said:

I agree.  I keep thinking QEII is a victim of Invasion of the Body Snatchers.  Imelda looks nothing like her.   Olivia didn't look much like her either, but I didn't find her off putting.  Claire is still the standard bearer.  This episode was pretty meh.......

Imelda in the role seems to lack the humor and self-deprecation that Elizabeth had. She overplays the stiffness, and even in the scene where she gets the singing fish, Imelda doesn’t make that look like natural, comfortable laughter at the ridiculousness. Elizabeth was a prig, but she knew she was a prig.

Edited November 16, 2022 by BlackberryJam

[Lady Whistleup]

20 hours ago, Magnumfangirl said:

I agree.  I keep thinking QEII is a victim of Invasion of the Body Snatchers.  Imelda looks nothing like her.   Olivia didn't look much like her either, but I didn't find her off putting.  Claire is still the standard bearer.  This episode was pretty meh.......

I think it's also this season's writing for the Queen. It's been ... not good. The other seasons had moments where the Queen showed her humor and joy. This season's Queen has been as miserable as Charles and Diana's marriage.

[Domenicholas]

I had to laugh when Philip said to Elizabeth "What your relatives did to my relatives." Sir, you both were related to the Romanovs.

A picture illustrating how alike George V and Nicholas II looked:

[paramitch]

On 11/15/2022 at 6:57 PM, sistermagpie said:

The show's always been very sympathetic to Philip, it seems to me. A whole ep on his men's discussion club while Anne's out there saving herself from kidnappers!

The irony of "The Crown" is that Peter Morgan has very little interest in the woman who wears the actual crown, and spends 90% of his time on the fanfictional manpain of Philip, Charles, etc., as the men who don't get to wear it.

Even when he's supposedly being sympathetic to Elizabeth, Diana, or Margaret, he's most interested in emphasizing their weaknesses.

[truthful]

29 minutes ago, paramitch said:

The irony of "The Crown" is that Peter Morgan has very little interest in the woman who wears the actual crown, and spends 90% of his time on the fanfictional manpain of Philip, Charles, etc., as the men who don't get to wear it.

Even when he's supposedly being sympathetic to Elizabeth, Diana, or Margaret, he's most interested in emphasizing their weaknesses.

I think he does a good job of emphasizing both the strengths and weaknesses of those three women. Infact with Margaret he's been very kind in regards to how he's written her. But I guess if one has preconceived notions when watching the episode one is bound to miss the forest for the trees.

And I think it's clear that in any episode, which is probably less than 90% of the show, it's clear that any fictional pain from the men in regards to the Queen that Morgan's sympathy lies with both the Queen and the men in question, whilst being against the rigidity of an antiqued system.

[Razzberry]

On 11/10/2022 at 5:58 PM, peridot said:

I felt for Elizabeth when Philip said he sought intellectual and spiritual companionship elsewhere. 

Yes, Philip is being kind of unfair to Elizabeth here, but I suppose he's been feeling chuffed by the attentions of Pretty Penny.  They showed her to be a flatterer and not all that bright regarding her take on the Romanov situation.  Loved seeing Elizabeth set her straight and walking out of that library room like the boss!  

Of course this is probably all invented by Morgan who loves to draw parallels where none exist, but still...

[qtpye]

9 hours ago, Razzberry said:

Yes, Philip is being kind of unfair to Elizabeth here, but I suppose he's been feeling chuffed by the attentions of Pretty Penny.  They showed her to be a flatterer and not all that bright regarding her take on the Romanov situation.  Loved seeing Elizabeth set her straight and walking out of that library room like the boss!  

Of course this is probably all invented by Morgan who loves to draw parallels where none exist, but still...

Yes, it was much more being worshipped by a beautiful young woman than actually finding an intellectual equal.

The queen seemed to be sympathetic.

I hate that they made her look like such a dullard. 

[bluestocking]

23 hours ago, qtpye said:

Yes, it was much more being worshipped by a beautiful young woman than actually finding an intellectual equal.

The queen seemed to be sympathetic.

I hate that they made her look like such a dullard. 

Seem like this season it's time for everyone to pile on Elizabeth.  We had Margaret blaming her for making her life miserable, Charles doing the same, and now Philip.  But Elizabeth barely fights back; she just sits there and takes it.  Where is the Elizabeth who went toe to toe with Thatcher?   Dullard is right.

This episode just reinforced for me how miscast JS is as Philip.  Philip was a fine physical specimen, with rugged good looks.  Spence is interesting looking and a brilliant actor, but he's always himself to me, never Philip.  

[GHScorpiosRule]

14 minutes ago, bluestocking said:

This episode just reinforced for me how miscast JS is as Philip.  Philip was a fine physical specimen, with rugged good looks.  Spence is interesting looking and a brilliant actor, but he's always himself to me, never Philip.  

Huh? Jonathan Pryce played Phillip this season.

[bluestocking]

8 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Huh? Jonathan Pryce played Phillip this season.

My bad you-re right of course.  I had Jonathan Spence the historian in my mind apparently.