S01.E07: Driftmark

[Jack Shaftoe]

15 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

Viserys just ordered that anyone who repeat this claim should have their tongues cut out.

As Tyrion once said "When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar; you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say." And in any event, accusing a princess of adultery is treasonous talk anyway, so this pronouncement was rather unnecessary. The law hasn't stopped the wagging tongues, this latest threat isn't going to do the trick either (unless writer fiat intervenes, of course). The cat is well out of the bag, regardless of Laenor sticks around or not.

20 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

There's simply no indication he's attached enough to his title to want to keep it at all costs, even as he leaves his entire world behind.

Being attached to one's title and status is the default stance for a nobleman, especially one from such an old and distinguished lineage. On the contrary, there wasn't any indication that he wanted to live as commoner either, so until this umpteenth "shocking" twist Occam's razor told us that he probably didn't.

40 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

In general, I have very little sympathy for ppl who treat "bastards" with cruelty or contempt. I didn't like it with Catelyn and I don't like it with Alicent and her brood or Criston. Viserys to his credit loves his grandchildren and doesn't care that they are "bastards."

Viserys is going to cause a civil war because he is an inept fool. And chances are he is delusional enough to not believe the accusations, rather than believe them but let it go. He is the guy who claimed no one would want to marry Rhaenyra if she was "sullied", after all. Not exactly Mr Progressive.

Also, Catelyn's problem (widely exaggerated as it was) wasn't that Jon was a bastard but that he was living in her household and treated like her own kids. She has zero problems with other bastards she meets.

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, deaja said:

If she were acting like a lioness to protect her son, more power to her. Wanting to hurt a child for revenge for her child being hurt is not that. 

I tend to have some sympathy for Ali here, although obviously she took it too far.

From her perspective:

Her father made it clear to her that Rhae will inevitably have to kill her kids if she wants to maintain her reign and basically called her stupid for not realizing this as a fundamental truth.

Originally, that seemed like crazy talk to Ali as a somewhat sheltered and naive/not-super-bright queen. But over the years, she has come to realize that Rae has zero respect for the rules the rest of society is bound by (other than she has to obey the King when push comes to shove). Rae doesn't respect Ali as queen. She doesn't respect that she was supposed to remain a virgin. She seduced not just a random person but a member of the Kingsguard, making him an oathbreaker. She doesn't respect her marriage and has had not just one but three obvious bastard children. And no one calls her to account on any of thise.

Now Rhae's children have maimed her son. And the loss of an eye is pretty darn serious. Basic justice says that something more should happen than Kumbaya. But that is all weak-ass Viserys is saying to do.

And against this backdrop, any lingering doubts that Ali might have had about whether Rhae might really be willing to murder her kids if it meant staying in power should be gone.

Any thoughts she might have had about the king backing her up, also should be gone. 

She only has herself, Otto and Larys to the extent that one can trust Larys. As to why Ali doesn't kick Larys to the curb knowing that he's evil, it is a ends-justifies-the-means moment.

One of the things that I have sympathy for Ali about is that for one of the few times in her life -- maybe the only time -- Otto showed some pride in her all because she went batshit crazy in defense of the family.

[Tachi Rocinante]

I only browsed a few pages, so apologies for repeating others thoughts:

• The first 35 minutes was a colossal bore.
• I don't think it was bad lighting - they used one of those shitty filters.
• Otto is the Hand again? Dafuq?
• Some sets looked really cheap.  Again.
• Viserys calling Alicent "Aemma" burned her
• The previews appeared to show another time jump.  For some characters, anyway.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Tachi Rocinante

[Oscirus]

1 minute ago, Cristofle said:

They went for a kill shot after he made it clear he was going to kill them. "Come at me again and I'll feed you to my dragon." "You will die screaming in flames like your father did." He took it from a fist fight to a deadly fight first. Aemond fucked around and found out. His ego, so high after riding Vhagar, would not allow him to see he did not have the upper hand and couldn't afford to act like he did. And actually, I think he knows that now, hence the "fair exchange". 

Alright, now they gonna fuck around and find out if the hightowers and the targs ever go to war cuz Im pretty sure hes riding the biggest bad ass there is. They better hope the moms can keep the peace.

You cant going around attacking people and not expecting a response, got the upper hand this time, doubt they will again

[AntFTW]

2 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Alright, now they gonna fuck around and find out if the hightowers and the targs ever go to war cuz Im pretty sure hes riding the biggest bad ass there is. They better hope the moms can keep the peace.

You cant going around attacking people and not expecting a response, got the upper hand this time, doubt they will again

He has a dragon but a dragon is only as good as its rider. Having the biggest dragon won't mean much if he doesn't know how to use it effectively.

Edited October 3, 2022 by AntFTW

[Oscirus]

Just now, AntFTW said:

He has a dragon but a dragon is only as good as its rider.

Theres a reason that Otto said that Vhagar was worth ten times what aemond gave for it. Might not make you invincible, but it sure as hell makes you alot better in a fight

[Enigma X]

I have no idea what the future holds but am sure that Aemond/Alicent will exact some revenge and then Rhaenyra/Daemon will retaliate. And so and and so on. Aemond still will suck to me. And, while Aemon has Vhagar, the other team has Daemon (the character with some major plot armor). 

Edited October 3, 2022 by Enigma X

[AntFTW]

Just now, Oscirus said:

Theres a reason that Otto said that Vhagar was worth ten times what aemond gave for it. Might not make you invincible, but it sure as hell makes you alot better in a fight

I don't disagree. They're banking on Aemond eventually being a useful dragon rider and learning how to be effective in combat with it, if it comes to that.

[cardigirl]

Apart from the screen being dark to indicate nighttime and thus losing a lot of detail in those scenes (which has probably already been discussed on here), I liked this episode a lot. 

I'm not really a fan of Alicent's boys, but when Aemond conquered his fear and went after a dragon of his own, I was rooting for him. What a wonderful scene. He knew he was either going to win the dragon over, or get toasted. LOL.  He did it. How joyous was that first ride, too? And humorous. And he lost an eye and will now be a badass forever. 

But I don't like all the plotting against Rhanyera's boys either.  She was making a smart move taking on her uncle. She needs strong and ruthless support if she is going to survive. 

Also enjoyed Aemond and Aegon's conversation about marrying their sister. 

Edited October 5, 2022 by cardigirl

[AntFTW]

1 minute ago, cardigirl said:

I'm not really a fan of Alicent's boys, but when Aemond conquered his fear and went after a dragon of his own, I was rooting for him. What a wonderful scene. He knew he was either going to win the dragon over, or get toasted. LOL.  He did it. How joyous was that first ride, too? And humorous. And he lost an eye and will now be a badass forever. 

I didn't get the sense that he was fearful of dragons (unless I missed something).

He was pretty desperate for a dragon.

[Cristofle]

7 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Alright, now they gonna fuck around and find out if the hightowers and the targs ever go to war cuz Im pretty sure hes riding the biggest bad ass there is. They better hope the moms can keep the peace.

You cant going around attacking people and not expecting a response, got the upper hand this time, doubt they will again

Well, sure. I think that's the point of the show - these two clashing groups will fight and fight and fight, and each will win battles and each will suffer losses. I think Aemond was more responsible for this particular loss than others will be in the future, but undoubtedly one or more of the four cousins will end up on the losing side sooner or later, and maybe it'll be their own arrogance and maybe it won't. Probably both. 

Vhagar is a powerful ally (hence Daemon's resigned 'Guess I should have seen that coming' expression as he saw her flying) but undoubtedly the blacks have their own. Almost certainly, a bunch of them will regret ending up on Daemon's bad side too.

[cardigirl]

2 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

I didn't get the sense that he was fearful of dragons (unless I missed something).

He was pretty desperate for a dragon.

I thought he was picked on and bullied about not having a dragon. Thus the desperation to get on of his own. But maybe he was not fearful, but respectful of a dragon's power? At any rate there were two possible outcomes, so he was pretty brave to approach the dragon.

[aghst]

 I don't know, I think Amond did his Joffrey villain turn, like in the GoT pilot, he got some poor baker's son reprimanded for making him look bad.

Same with Arya making the bigger boy look foolish with her small sword.

Then what really clinched it was crazy-eyes Alicent with the dagger trying to take out an eye of one of her stepdaughter's sons.

Grown up Amond with the eye patch is going to be one of the main villains, just watch.  Obviously had been trending that way with Alicent being angry and Amond getting bullied and so thirsty for a dragon

And Vhagar giving it up so easily.

We're all suppose to be Team Raynera, like we were suppose to be Team Stark.

Any GoT fans on Team Lannister?

[AntFTW]

1 minute ago, cardigirl said:

I thought he was picked on and bullied about not having a dragon. Thus the desperation to get on of his own. But maybe he was not fearful, but respectful of a dragon's power? At any rate there were two possible outcomes, so he was pretty brave to approach the dragon.

I don't disagree. It took a certain amount of bravery to approach the dragon. I'm just adding a little desperation there.

It took some bravery but I'm just saying there was also some desperation mixed in.

[Cristofle]

3 minutes ago, aghst said:

We're all suppose to be Team Raynera, like we were suppose to be Team Stark.

Any GoT fans on Team Lannister?

 I mean, I do think Rhaenyra and certainly Daemon are more...morally ambiguous, to say the least, than most of the Starks especially early on. If the Starks were ever ruthless (Arya is obviously a major example) they were pretty seriously goaded into it by horrific crimes committed against them by the Lannisters. Ned just wanted to be left alone in the North - nothing that happened was of his choosing or of any particular desire on his part for power. Jon actively rejects the ultimate power right until the end, and his darkest act was still in large part a desire to protect his sisters after Tyrion reminded him Dany may well kill them. Also, he'd just watched Dany commit mass genocide and show no remorse even when challenged by him. Rhaenyra clearly IS driven at least in part by a desire for power, as is Daemon, and Daemon has shown to be utterly ruthless in getting what he wants. 

That said, obviously this is predominantly Rhaenyra's show so I think her POV will be prized above others. 

[UnoAgain]

I know it's the source material ...but I still feel uneasy that I'm watching yet another fantasy show that dangled a black "love interest" for it's white protagonists.. Only to see them shuffled off to be replaced by a white one.. I've just seen it so many times now

[iMonrey]

First of all, this episode was just way too dark, visually. It was right up there with The Long Night. I will have to go back and watch it again with the brightness turned all the way up because I couldn't tell what was going on half the time. I didn't even get that it was Laenor in the boat at the end. Episodes like this make me think the show assumes we all have very new, very big, very high def TVs. I've got an older plasma, and I couldn't see a damn thing. 

And it's too bad because this was a really good, action-packed episode. This whole series has been like an antidote to the glacial pace of Game of Thrones. 

I'm not clear that Rhaenyra and Daemon were in on the ruse. It makes sense now that I think about it, but the show didn't really telescope that. It was Daemon suggesting Laenor would have to be dead, and Rhaenyra confirming it; cut to Daemon giving Qarl some coin and asking for a quick death; cut to Qarl drawing his sword and fencing with Laenor, cut to dead body. I guess the fact that the body was burned beyond recognition should have been a giveaway but it still doesn't prove that anyone other than Qarl and Laenor themselves plotted this ruse. 

Quote

So Amond strokes Vhagar a couple of times, mounts her and now she's his bitch?  (no way he hangs on by that rope and survives, his hands would have been ripped up)

Even female dragons prefer assholes?

So this mystical bonding occurs and that's it, there's no such thing as Grand Theft Dragon?  Everyone accepts that she's his now?

This is what I don't get either. The problem with the light speed pacing is they totally glossed over how Laena found and claimed Vhagar in the first place. And they made it seem like it was way too easy for Aemond to claim Vhagar. I know there was some dialogue in the previous episode that once you are bonded to a dragon they will not take commands from anyone else, but the fact that Vhagar has had at least three riders now contradicts that. Seems like Viserys should be able to say "Sorry, no son, you don't get Vhagar."

[UnoAgain]

3 hours ago, KLJ said:

But are the Targaryeans also Valryrians technically too?  

Valaryian... Yes... Velaryon... No

[Oscirus]

Im not particularly a fan of any team I like people from both. Not even really a fan of alignment. 

For example, I currently like Corlys, Larys, Aemond, Rhaenyss and Helena.  Everybody else is meh to me. Was a daemon fan till he started ignoring his daughters

[cardigirl]

5 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I'm not clear that Rhaenyra and Daemon were in on the ruse. It makes sense now that I think about it, but the show didn't really telescope that. It was Daemon suggesting Laenor would have to be dead, and Rhaenyra confirming it; cut to Daemon giving Qarl some coin and asking for a quick death; cut to Qarl drawing his sword and fencing with Laenor, cut to dead body. I guess the fact that the body was burned beyond recognition should have been a giveaway but it still doesn't prove that anyone other than Qarl and Laenor themselves plotted this ruse. 

A quick death with witnesses! That's what makes me think it was an elaborate plan between the four of them. Of course, Daemon killed someone (poor servant?) to be the replacement body, and then Qarl and Laenor played their part. 

When Daemon broke that man's neck, initially I thought that he was killing Laenor. 

Edited October 3, 2022 by cardigirl

[ursula]

It just occured to me that Aemond and the girls are also first cousins. So Aemond wasn't bullying distant relatives, but girls he should have felt protective towards. 

9 hours ago, Constantinople said:

It's not much a different reaction than when Viserys was kicking him.

Perhaps Daemon subscribes to Henry Hill's school of thought from Goodfellas "The way I saw it, everybody takes a beating sometime.”

At least if they'd shown him looking pissed off, or even standing next to his girls or something. Daemon totally vibes like the Dad that would give his daughter a fist bump for punching someone. 

Furthermore, he finally jumps into the fray to stop Cole, and he's later consoling Jace.  He has a passive amusement towards his daughters upset, but becomes active for Rhaenyra and her boys? It's just a weird choice from the directing/writing.

Edited October 3, 2022 by ursula

[AntFTW]

12 minutes ago, aghst said:

Any GoT fans on Team Lannister?

Sometimes...

[Cristofle]

8 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I'm not clear that Rhaenyra and Daemon were in on the ruse. It makes sense now that I think about it, but the show didn't really telescope that.

I thought they did, especially with Daemon killing the man who was to be put in Laenor's place and Rhaenyra talking about how the sea is an escape, and she does love Laenor, and Daemon responding with "set him free". Once they showed Laenor alive, I thought it was very clear it was a planned ruse between all four of them. Also, Daemon and Rhaenyra talk about what the realm will "think" her capable of - because she has no intention of actually having Laenor killed, but she knows the advantage of the realm possibly believing it.

[iMonrey]

Quote

Of course, Daemon killed someone (poor servant?) to be the replacement body, and then Qarl and Laenor played their part. 

Another unfortunate side effect of the show being so dark. I didn't see that it was Daemon who did that. Like I said - half the time I couldn't tell what the hell was going on and didn't even realize that was Laenor in the boat at the end until I came here. 

[Lady Whistleup]

Rhaenyra is more likable because she's less judgmental. She's careless and sometimes ruthless but she's not there hissing about proper behavior the way Westeros Karen Alicent is.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Lady Whistleup

[jeansheridan]

1 hour ago, aghst said:

Yeah but now he's going to be eyepatch bro.

His pragmatic comment that an eye was worth a dragon was dead right. Plus he will look like a badass. What's a lost eye for a dragon? And he can say it happened when he got the dragon and let people make their own assumptions

[FnkyChkn34]

20 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I'm not clear that Rhaenyra and Daemon were in on the ruse. It makes sense now that I think about it, but the show didn't really telescope that. It was Daemon suggesting Laenor would have to be dead, and Rhaenyra confirming it; cut to Daemon giving Qarl some coin and asking for a quick death; cut to Qarl drawing his sword and fencing with Laenor, cut to dead body. I guess the fact that the body was burned beyond recognition should have been a giveaway but it still doesn't prove that anyone other than Qarl and Laenor themselves plotted this ruse. 

Daemon is the one who killed the person so that his body could be the body-double that was burned beyond recognition.  They weren't just in on it, they were the masterminds.  

[absnow54]

2 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

Rhaenyra is more likable because she's less judgmental. She's careless and sometimes ruthless but she's not there hissing about proper behavior the way Alicent is.

Yeah, Rhaenyra is pretty spoiled and has basically gotten everything she's ever wanted, but so far, her "bucking" against the system has mostly been against misogynistic ideas. Like a man can legitimize his bastards, so who cares who fathered Rhaenyra's children so long as she declares them her heir. I did sympathize with Alicent this episode, even though she was pretty batshit in her actions. Viserys obviously doesn't give a shit about her and their children, he seemed really put off by having to defend Aemond, when he was so obviously Team Cousin Squad. 

Side note, I know we're in the wrong century, but for a moment, I thought the mysterious man in the cape that had boarded the rowboat was Gendry, hired to whisk Qarl away, since he's such an experienced rower. 

[PurpleTentacle]

To the people who told me I was way off when I said the "king consort" thing was dumb and likely a mistake: Ha!

[Cristofle]

I'm sure this will change, but to some extent, the child of Alicent's I kind of feel sorriest for in this episode is Aegon. No one likes this kid, lol. Otto was smacking him around, Alicent slapped him in front of everyone and called him a fool (what happened to Aegon was most certainly not his fault - he's probably less to blame than anyone), Aemond blamed him for the whole "bastard" talk, and Viserys was practically spitting venom at him. Also, I can't blame him for not wanting to marry his 'can't seem to hold a conversation with anyone but a creepy crawly' sister. Sure, Aegon is rude and careless, but in a way that sort of makes sense. 

[Oscirus]

3 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

I'm sure this will change, but to some extent, the child of Alicent's I kind of feel sorriest for in this episode is Aegon. No one likes this kid, lol. Otto was smacking him around, Alicent slapped him in front of everyone and called him a fool (what happened to Aegon was most certainly not his fault - he's probably less to blame than anyone), Aemond blamed him for the whole "bastard" talk, and Viserys was practically spitting venom at him. Also, I can't blame him for not wanting to marry his 'can't seem to hold a conversation with anyone but a creepy crawly' sister. Sure, Aegon is rude and careless, but in a way that sort of makes sense. 

Yea Aegons the ultimate brooooo dude but people keep fucking with him and forcing responsibility on him that he doesnt want/ isnt ready to handle.

[MrsR]

Well so much to respond to here.

I know there are a lot of knickers in a twist about which royal rules are being broken and how this here would never happen and so and so's motivations aren't valid etc, etc, etc.

Well, I think if more people were familiar with the Plantagenets, the real dynasty who the Targaryans are based on, there would be a lot less pearl clutching. This family lasted for 350 years during the wild wild west of medieval times. You don't last that long by following rules or other peoples mores or coloring within the lines. 

Aemond didn't just claim a spare dragon, he claimed VAGHAR. And wasted no time doing it. That was the biggest baddest move so far. As far I'm concerned, All Hail Aemond!!!! Daemon should have secured that beautiful bitch back in Pentos.

During the season break look up Allison Weir or Dan Jones on Amazon and get with the Plantagenets. Then relax those knickers and enjoy whatever craziness the rest of the show has to offer. Cause the P's were effing crazy.

[RobertDeSneero]

I can understand Alicent wanting an eye for an eye in the heat of the moment--in her place, I probably would, too--but given time, she turned down the offer from Larys to do it for her.  I don't think that's as bad as Daemon killing some random guy who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Kids fight.  Bloody noses happen.  Where it went wrong was someone introducing a dagger into the mix.  That goes beyond letting kids be kids.

[Cristofle]

8 minutes ago, MrsR said:

Daemon should have secured that beautiful bitch back in Pentos.

Daemon should have encouraged Rhaena to take Vhagar before they ever came back to Westeros, to be sure. Which I think he knows now from the expression on his face when he saw her flying. That was definitely his bad, lol. I'd say he was more concerned about his grieving children, except I haven't seen that side of him onscreen, so eh. 

Edited October 3, 2022 by Cristofle

[Constantinople]

Interesting parallel between Alicent cutting Rhaenyra in her left arm with the dagger and Daemon and Rhaenyra cutting each others left hands as part of what I guess is Valaryian marriage ceremony. In a way Alicent and Rhaenyra are just as tied together as Rhaenyra and Daemon.

[sistermagpie]

11 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I thought they made a point to show that he landed the dragon on top of what was left of the bonfire in the firepit at the funeral ceremony. He (metaphorically?) extinguished their mother's fire. I didn't think that was a landing zone. 

Yes, the other kids were out of bed, but sorry, I won't be convinced that Aemond was not the instigating twat in this matter. They wouldn't have been out of bed if he didn't "win over" Vhagar. 

11 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Could be. I could be wrong.

We're on the same page.

I think Aemond threw the first insult. He was also supposed to be in bed, not wandering around trying to ride a dragon. Aemond felt entitled to a dragon so he's wandering around in places he wasn't supposed to be, looking for a dragon. If anyone was watching or guarding him, no one would have let him ride Vhagar or try to ride her or even get close to her.

10 hours ago, Cool Breeze said:

Baela and Rhaena just lost their mother.  Jace and Luke just lost their (biological) father.  They were in the depths of grief and despair.  And they’re all children.  Aemond chatted shit and got hit.  And, after the attack had subsided a bit, and when he was in no immediate danger, was about to bash his nephew’s brains in with a rock.  

5 hours ago, Pestilentia said:

OK- all the children suck and are entitled little assholes. I think all this "Bobby said six words of instigation but Billy said eight so He. Started. It." is absurd.

5 hours ago, Cristofle said:

I do think part of the reason that Aemond got beat so hard, to the point of losing an eye, is his lack of understanding of real loyalty and bonds between siblings and cousins. He knows he's SUPPOSED to do his duty, as his mother has taught him (hence his telling Aegon he'd do as he was told if he had been betrothed to Helaena) but there is absolutely no connection between Aegon and Aemond, or Aemond and Helaena, or Aemond and his cousins. Alicent fostered duty, but not love (and she encouraged outright hostility between Aemond and his cousins). Jace and Luke love each other. Baela and Rhaena love each other. Jace was encouraged by his mother to care about Baela and Rhaena, and the cousins decided to be loyal to each other. Aemond thought he could run off at the mouth, and threaten to feed the kids to his dragon, and had no idea how far all four would go to protect one another. Which is kind of sad, I guess. Aemond is a product of his environment at the end of the day. 

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

I love that Aemond getting jumped 4 on 1 and attacked first makes him the bully. I get the feeling that the only reason hes getting that label is because of the team he's on and not the situation cuz he didnt search them out, they came for him, started some shit then played the victim when he responded in kind.

Yes, I think the focus on who's the bigger bully and who started it is missing the forest for the trees. Of course all the kids reacted to something when they did what they did. Everything can be traced back to something. Even Baela wasn't just randomly mad out of spite.

But the bigger issue of the show seemed to me to be more about how Aemond represents personal power while the other kids were about alliances and strength between them. Aemond was the strongest and seemingly oldest kid there--even with four of them on top of him he could throw them off and not be hurt. Plus he's now metaphorically a superpower with that dragon. He walked into the cave having both his parents alive and having just had the best night of his life that gave him what he wanted...and the effect on him was to make him arrogant and cruel. He had no sympathy or empathy for the girls losing their mother or the symbol of their mother. To him, the dragon was only power and since he had it he was the superior and could look down on them. (Even the fact that he himself didn't get violent in response to the pig prank speaks more to him simply being a cold planner rather than any sense of proportional response.)

The other kids were all grieving somebody important. Iirc (and maybe I don't) Luke was originally resentful of how the girls got a big funeral for their mother while he didn't get the same for his father. But when his mother told him to feel sympathy for them, he went over and sat by them and one of them took his hand--in closeup. Representing how their caring about each other gave them comfort. So when Baela saw someone riding the dragon she woke up her sister, and then the two of them woke up the other boys because there's affection between them. 

Then their actions in the fight were also mostly motivated by others--protecting their sister, protecting their cousin, grief over insults to their dead mother and father. They were four people facing an objectively stronger enemy and he wound up losing an eye. In fact, I honestly can't tell about the last part. Is it the kid who throws the dirt the same kid who has the knife?

So on one hand you could say the other kids don't stand a chance because they're not badass enough--they don't want it enough, since in order for them to rule everyone will be dead. But otoh, trusting everything to personal power and making alliances based on fear often doesn't work out either.

17 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

His pragmatic comment that an eye was worth a dragon was dead right. Plus he will look like a badass. What's a lost eye for a dragon? And he can say it happened when he got the dragon and let people make their own assumptions

But that was a sour grapes rewrite of what happened. He didn't pay for the dragon with his eye. He won the dragon and felt so good about it he taunted the former rider's child about her loss and had to make a show of being against every single one of them. Sure he gained maybe more than he lost that night, but the loss was for nothing.

[AntFTW]

48 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

His pragmatic comment that an eye was worth a dragon was dead right. Plus he will look like a badass. What's a lost eye for a dragon? And he can say it happened when he got the dragon and let people make their own assumptions

I don't think his comment was meant to be pragmatic at all. He was thinking his own personal gain, rather than the pragmatic political aspect of it.

To me, that shows his desperation for a dragon. I would rather keep my eye on any given day of the week.

5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But that was a sour grapes rewrite of what happened. He didn't pay for the dragon with his eye. He won the dragon and felt so good about it he taunted the former rider's child about her loss and had to make a show of being against every single one of them. Sure he gained maybe more than he lost that night, but the loss was for nothing.

Agreed. I mentioned previously that he didn't have to lose an eye. He could have made it the next day with both of his eyes and a dragon.

[Lamima]

2 hours ago, Oscirus said:

I love that Aemond getting jumped 4 on 1 and attacked first makes him the bully. I get the feeling that the only reason hes getting that label is because of the team he's on and not the situation cuz he didnt search them out, they came for him, started some shit then played the victim when he responded in kind.

He came at the girls on their mother's funeral day after steeling their mother's dragon. He spewed hate....like 'she doesn't need the dragon she's dead' and 'get her a fat pig, it's fitting'. He was a bully. He was asking for trouble and he got it. He also punched a girl. He was no victim there. 

29 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Interesting parallel between Alicent cutting Rhaenyra in her left arm with the dagger and Daemon and Rhaenyra cutting each others left hands as part of what I guess is Valaryian marriage ceremony. In a way Alicent and Rhaenyra are just as tied together as Rhaenyra and Daemon.

Except Alicent wasn't cut and they didn't bind their cuts but, rather, Rhaenyra backed away as far as she could from Alicent. It was more like Alicent wanted to be bound to Rhaenyra but Rhaenyra did not share the feelings. Like Alicent's the stalker creep. 

[AntFTW]

2 minutes ago, Lamima said:

He also punched a girl. He was no victim there. 

Now... I will say Baela got in a great punch after he pushed Rhaena down.

[Lady Whistleup]

I've always felt Alicent was in love with Rhaenyra and bitter that her feelings weren't returned.

[Meredith Quill]

40 minutes ago, RobertDeSneero said:

I can understand Alicent wanting an eye for an eye in the heat of the moment--in her place, I probably would, too--but given time, she turned down the offer from Larys to do it for her.  I don't think that's as bad as Daemon killing some random guy who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Kids fight.  Bloody noses happen.  Where it went wrong was someone introducing a dagger into the mix.  That goes beyond letting kids be kids.

Rocky hates being so thoroughly ignored. Now he has a sad.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Oscirus said:

I love that Aemond getting jumped 4 on 1 and attacked first makes him the bully. I get the feeling that the only reason hes getting that label is because of the team he's on and not the situation cuz he didnt search them out, they came for him, started some shit then played the victim when he responded in kind.

1 minute ago, Lamima said:

He came at the girls on their mother's funeral day after steeling their mother's dragon. He spewed hate....like 'she doesn't need the dragon she's dead' and 'get her a fat pig, it's fitting'. He was a bully. He was asking for trouble and he got it. He also punched a girl. He was no victim there. 

Yeah, I feel like there's two issues there. Even we say 4 against 1 isn't fair, none of those kids were bullying Aemond. Bullying is when you (alone or with others) harass/target/make fun of the weaker victim(s). Those kids were all vulnerable and individually angered by the same kid, often stepping in when he'd tossed aside another one. After he throws them all off, he's standing over the one kid with a rock and specifically looks to the girls who tearfully shake their heads, begging him not to do it.

Of the five kids, it was Aemond who showed the instincts of a bully there and none of the other ones did. Of course, putting out someone's eye but not in a bullying way doesn't make it any less violent or bad, but there were different personalities/motivations playing out there.

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, deaja said:

If she were acting like a lioness to protect her son, more power to her. Wanting to hurt a child for revenge for her child being hurt is not that. 

At that kind of society, revenge *was* justice. 

The basic fault, though, is that Viserys is too weak to be a king. Anybody with sense would have seen that trouble was coming (although not between children)., but he just looked away.

[AntFTW]

50 minutes ago, RobertDeSneero said:

Kids fight.  Bloody noses happen.  Where it went wrong was someone introducing a dagger into the mix

...and rocks.

...and death threats.

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Oh, yeah, let's interrogate Aemond in public because rumours about murderous princes are totally the thing the kingdom needs. 

Yes, Viserys is a fool. His order that it's forbidden to call Rhaenyra's sons bastards may be followed in public, but he can't prevent people whispering.   

[Jack Shaftoe]

1 hour ago, MrsR said:

Well, I think if more people were familiar with the Plantagenets, the real dynasty who the Targaryans are based on, there would be a lot less pearl clutching. This family lasted for 350 years during the wild wild west of medieval times. You don't last that long by following rules or other peoples mores or coloring within the lines. 

The Plantagenets would have lasted longer if they didn't have a penchant for trying to kill each other. And the vast majority of them did follow (or at least pretended to follow in public) the rules. When they went too far their vassals (and/or relatives) revolted.

[UnoAgain]

4 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Leanor had to "die" for them both to be free. Rhaenyra is free to marry Daemon and he's free to be with his boyfriend where they don't care about it as long as he has money. Just leaving doesn't stop them from married. We saw that with Daemon and his first wife. He had to kill her to be free to marry someone else. Rheanyra likes Laenor and didn't want him dead. She just didn't want to be married to him anymore, what they came up with helps them both. 

I still don't like it.. I know the source material.. And at least this way they didn't Bury the gays... But he re- committed.. And based on the little we saw of him I believed it.. But no we had to push on to get to an incestuous pedo groomer and his new bride.. I knew the shack scene was coming and I knew laenor would be gone by the epi.. Still left me feeling bad

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

As Tyrion once said "When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar; you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say." And in any event, accusing a princess of adultery is treasonous talk anyway, so this pronouncement was rather unnecessary. The law hasn't stopped the wagging tongues, this latest threat isn't going to do the trick either (unless writer fiat intervenes, of course). The cat is well out of the bag, regardless of Laenor sticks around or not.

Viserys acts unlike any king or husband or father in patriarchal society worth his salt would. Any doubt about Rhaenyra's virtue is also a stain in Viserys' own honor. Therefore, he should have arranged a close guard and would have easily caught Rhaenyra in flagrante. That he just closes his eyes shoes him be a weakling who can't be respected in other matters, either.     

[Helena Dax]

I was so glad when they showed that Laenor was still alive!! They had me fooled for a minute and I was "nooooo, you two just had such a cute conversation!". It would have been too much. I guess Rhaenyra understood that she needs someone like Daemon at her side if she wants to stay in the Throne for more than a minute after his father's death. I mean, the support of House Velaryon would be enough if the kids were actually Velaryon, but they're not and the rumors are spreading fast.

Daemon's girls and Rhaenyra's boys seem well-adjusted. Alicent's kids on the other hand... I don't think Aemond was 100% to blame for the fight, but do I see him as someone who would kill his brother Aegon the Wanker for the Throne? Hell, yeah.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Helena Dax

[Stardancer Supreme]

2 hours ago, absnow54 said:

Yeah, Rhaenyra is pretty spoiled and has basically gotten everything she's ever wanted, but so far, her "bucking" against the system has mostly been against misogynistic ideas. Like a man can legitimize his bastards, so who cares who fathered Rhaenyra's children so long as she declares them her heir. I did sympathize with Alicent this episode, even though she was pretty batshit in her actions. Viserys obviously doesn't give a shit about her and their children, he seemed really put off by having to defend Aemond, when he was so obviously Team Cousin Squad. 

Side note, I know we're in the wrong century, but for a moment, I thought the mysterious man in the cape that had boarded the rowboat was Gendry, hired to whisk Qarl away, since he's such an experienced rower. 

Team Rhaenyra here as well. #Blacks 

You know that grandchildren trump actual children. Viserys, by all accounts, is as hand on as he could be as a grandfather.  (Pun intended)