S06.E13: Saul Gone

[Dev F]

4 minutes ago, Dobian said:

They sure made it like he was at Cinnabon a pretty long time.  That's a lot to pack into two months, plus why would he be that fast to jump into another con game?  I could see it happening after a couple of years went by and he was bored and depressed with his life, but after less than two months?  You would think that he would still be laying very low at this point.

It was more than two months, because the end of Breaking Bad overlaps with Gene's time in Omaha. Walt and Saul use the Disappearer circa March 2010, so it's more like eight months.

[Eulipian 5k]

11 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Kim's real personality is committing crimes? The point of Waterworks is that she no longer believes that. But now for plot reasons she does?

She's proving that when they are together, they always end up Breaking Bad. Even just an ID scam. Jimmy already showed that he, Gene, doesn't need Kim to break bad.

Jimmy, why wait til you're in the dumpster to open one of those damned burner phone blister packs?

[Bannon]

12 minutes ago, gallimaufry said:

Perhaps. 

I actually think there is a case for Kim one day to practise law again if she continues down the redemptive path she's on.  She simply can do more good as a lawyer for the needy than she can helping answer phones and filing and while her confession would block any re-entry to the bar now, if she spends a decade committing every spare hour to licking stamps for the underserved for free, it seems like she'd have a much stronger case for reacquiring her licence than, say, Jimmy in 410.

However, at that point, I think she would have to go to Cheryl and say what she was doing and why and it would be for Cheryl to decide whether retribution or revenge is appropriate. 

Separate note, I'm fascinated by Ericssen giving Kim a heads up about Jimmy's testimony.  It suggests that Kim retains the respect of at least one ABQ lawyer.  Also, I loved that Peter Diseth got a really big part this episode.  He's been a terrific character and a great cheerleader for the show and he also had some great comedic moments here.  I actually think a tremendous strength of this show, more even than "Breaking Bad", has been how good the tertiary characters are.

Kim deliberately and enthusiastically drugged a fellow lawyer in a civil suit, as part of a concerted effort to defraud hundreds of people. She concealed the identity of violent criminal from a court, allowing him to make bail, and thus murder people, including the lawyer she drugged. She ought to be in prison, although it's credible that she may not suffer that fate.

[Starchild]

31 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Well, some fans did complain these lawyers spend very little time in the courtroom. It's fitting that the finale grinds us through the tedium of facing justice. (Can't rush the process).

...

ps.

From the moment he opened it, (in the dumpster!), I was yelling, Close the Band Aid box you jack-ass!

I was one who mentioned the fact that this story about lawyers had relatively few courtroom scenes, but believe me it was not a complaint. It actually underscored that this show was more about character than plot.

As for the band-aid box, as soon as he put it aside still open I knew what would happen. Even before he picked up a phone in that packaging style that no one can open without their hand slipping at least once. 

[Eulipian 5k]

11 hours ago, Sailorgirl26 said:

The way it was shot? I think it absolutely was a goodbye and the last time she would see him. The way he did the double-finger guns at her and she didn't respond, and we see Jimmy disappear behind the wall and out of Kim's sight as she leaves the prison. That to me was absolutely a visual representation of him disappearing. But in actual prison, not Omaha Cinnabon prison.

Notice the use of the fences to separate them, like Mike and Nacho's Dad; two different worlds. I think it's the last visit.

Loved the Now Voyager cigarette call back. The bow that wraps it all up.

[luna1122]

1 minute ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Notice the use of the fences to separate them, like Mike and Nacho's Dad; two different worlds. I think it's the last visit.

Loved the Now Voyager cigarette call back. The bow that wraps it all up.

Neither Bob O or Rhea subscribe to this theory. They both choose to believe Kim will keep visiting him, and don't really want to know if the writers intended differently. I kind of don't want to know either. 

I'm not the hopeless romantic that Rhea says she is, and I'm also mostly ok if that was the only visit, because they said all they needed to to each other, without needing to use words to express it. The love and understanding between them was so tangible. 

And they were never much of a touchy feely or physical couple, really, but that wall-cigarette scene was almost outrageously sexy to me. The way he cupped her hands in his white looking into her eyes, the close lean in. Damn. 

[Penman61]

Were Gene's crimes in Omaha ever part of the negotiations with the Feds? Did we hear anything else about Jeff?

[ahmerali]

I think I've said enough about how I feel about this ending, I'm not going to belabor it. It is what it is, the point was to demonstrate that this is how Jimmy makes Kim "whole", and that's what the entire series was apparently about. All the rest of the stuff was window dressing.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

If you enjoyed it, that's great. Like I said, it was what it was.

[TakomaSnark]

1 hour ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

Not even. Barely two months.

His references to "two years ago" were to when he was abducted by Walter and Jesse.

The entire Breaking Bad era was 2008-10. The final episode of BB took us as far as September 7, 2010 (recall that we saw Walter marking birthdays at the beginning and end of the series, with another in the middle). The football games Jimmy-as-Gene discussed with the security guard at the mall were played in October 2010, and the phone conversations with Francesca and Kim took place on Jimmy's own 50th birthday (November 12, 2010). 

I checked the Breaking Bad wiki and it states that Vince Gilligan put Walt's time in New Hampshire at six months. He and Gene went into hiding at the same time, so that's a base of at least six months in Omaha.

[Constantinople]

13 hours ago, Constantinople said:

I suspect impersonating a lawyer is a crime, particularly when you impersonate a lawyer to government officials? Why would Kim do that?

57 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

She did it before with Lalo; she wasn't his lawyer. It was a scam to get to see Viktor. Plus, what are the consequences...being disbarred?

That was before Kim had her come to Jesus moment with Howard and her subsequent confession. Which is exactly my point. Kim's character development in the second half of Season 6 is a thrown out the window.

As for consequences, the main point of what happened to Howard, and her reaction to it, is the Kim doesn't know what the consequences will be of her lies, schemes and crimes. Therefore, don't lie, scheme or commit crimes anymore and come clean about what you did.

And Kim could be more than disbarred for impersonating a lawyer, she could go to jail.

[SimplexFish]

As for the members here that liked this episode and the ending thats great and I am glad that you are satisfied. However for me I thought the writing and lack of consistency was terrible, especially for G&G and even more terrible for a series (actually a double series) grand finale.

I was very disappointed in "Saul Gone" pretty much from the opening scene to the last. Some things were just flat inconceivable almost laughable in how they played out and I don't mean just one or two. Totally a WTH were the writers thinking...

I could start a list of obvious plot holes, inconsistencies, nonsense scenes and things that the writers know would/could never happen. G&G had put so much thought in to every mico detail of BCS  just throw that out the window at the end it is just disgraceful to the fans IMHO

I did like the Mike scene and as far as the Walt scene, it was the best of the three W&J appearances and finally I got a small kick out of Saul's smirk on the bus during the Better Call Saul singing...

Edited August 16, 2022 by SimplexFish

[bad things are bad]

56 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Jimmy, why wait til you're in the dumpster to open one of those damned burner phone blister packs?

I had a Tracfone a few years ago.  They don't work right out of the package...you need to charge them and register them online.  Is there a burner phone that you could start using right away?

[Chaos Theory]

I am not a lawyer myself so my knowledge of law happens to be from watching bad tv shows, the occasional criminal documentary, and lately CourtCam so I might be wrong about all this.  But Saul Goodman wasn't originally charged with individual crimes he was charged under the RICO statute.    So bringing up Hank's murder (as an assessory after the fact) was just another charge to add to make a RICO charge stick.   The problem is that Saul Goodman is still Slippin Jimmy and he was able to cast enough doubt in the Prosecutor's mind that he could get all the charges into a RICO case.   All it would take was one juror.   "Poor scared lawyer for the dangerous Heisenberg and the dangerous Cartel had no choice but to do what those scary men made him do.   Poor Poor (but very repentant) Saul."       He almost got away with it too.  7-1/2 years in Club Fed but he pushed it a step too far and discovered that Kim had already confessed about Howard Hamlin and I think that brought him back to the time travel discussion he was having with Mike and Walt.    Ironically I think Jimmy would go back all the way to his brother and try to fix his relationship with Chuck.  If he was able to not be Slippin Jimmy.   I think that was what he regrets most.   

Edited August 16, 2022 by Chaos Theory

[Joimiaroxeu]

Blue Bell mint chocolate chip. Yuck. I said what I said. 🤮

"So you were always like this?" Yeah, pretty much. Pretty much the theme for the entire series.

That ending was kind of a let down for me. It didn't hit me the way BB's ending did. But I guess aging and eventually dying in prison is the least Jimmy could do short of getting murdered. And he'll probably be able to help other prisoners with legal stuff.

Quote

I don't want to see anymore of Vince Gilligan's work.  

What's the problem with Vince Gilligan? IMO he's The Auteur of television right now, until someone even better comes along.

[Eulipian 5k]

12 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

And Kim could be more than disbarred for impersonating a lawyer, she could go to jail.

She confesses to her part in Howard's death and disappearance, doesn't get charged, Jimmy gets 6 years for racketeering, accessory to multiple murders, & money laundering; but she'll have the book thrown at her for a false ID? Even Charles Manson was allowed visitors and to get married in prison. Would they arrest her for smoking too?

[peeayebee]

1 hour ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Jimmy, why wait til you're in the dumpster to open one of those damned burner phone blister packs?

I know! But you can also see how panicked and desperate he was in that moment. He wanted to call the Disappearer right then if not sooner. Of course he should have had the phone unpacked, charged, and ready to go. And he should have had a go-bag in that hole in the wall.

I can't recall, but I guess he must have been making noise in the dumpster for the cops to know he was in there. They would probably have checked anyway when they were searching, but would have just opened the lid instead of calling sarcastically to him, "Anybody home?"

[Constantinople]

8 hours ago, millennium said:

Wouldn't Saul's capture, arrest and trial have caused a media circus?  The Walter White story, the chemistry teacher who built a meth empire, was national news.   Now after two years on the lam, White's accomplice, the colorful, larger-than-life criminal defense attorney "Better Call Saul" Goodman had been apprehended, taken down by a sharp-eyed 90-year-old woman.  Wouldn't reporters and looky-loo's be falling over each other to get a seat in the courtroom at Saul's sentencing?  Especially since they were deprived of all that by Walt's death and Jesse's escape?   Yet this show made the sentencing look like a sleepy family court hearing.   I could have done with at least some crowds and cameras outside the courthouse.

P.S.  Marie looked great!  Think her suit was purple?

Yes, it would be a media circus, which is why Saul wouldn't be given a sweetheart deal because the prosecutor was shitting his pants over the possibility of one juror holding out on voting guilty. That would create a firestorm of outage from

• the public
• the media
• law enforcement, particularly the DEA, and more particularly the Albuquerque office of the DEA
• local, state and federal politicians
• Marie. Just because she wears purple doesn't mean she's a shrinking violet. She's not shy with sharing her opinion, and will do so with the press and the people she knows in the DEA. 

Which is why I disagree with @Bannon, who points to cases of notorious criminals who received sweetheart deals for testifying against the likes of El Chapo and John Gotti.

There is no one in the BB/BCS universe at all comparable to an El Chapo or John Gotti that Saul can testify against because they're all dead. Saul admitted in court that he saw Walter White as Saul's "opportunity" and his shot at "big money". It doesn't sound as if Saul has any big time criminals he can deliver to the authorities in exchange for a reduced setence.

The biggest criminal that Saul can deliver is Ed the Disappearer, but no mention was made of him during the episode after Saul was arrested.

Yet we're supposed to believe Saul was given "the most generous sentencing recommendation" the judge has seen "in 22 years on the bench" when he has nothing to offer and when Saul's case would be the subject of intense media coverage.

[GiuliettaMasina]

11 hours ago, Bannon said:

Sam Gravano personally murdered 18 people, and served only a few years, because he could testify against Gotti and others. Most of the people we know Saul could testify against are already dead, but he had other clients, and if, say, he witnessed a major crime by a low level cartel soldier who had in intervening years climbed through the ranks, that would be quite valuable. In addition, he was a major money launderer, and might know where a huge amount of other drug money is hidden.

The DOJ has let quite a few people, with personal history of violent crime much worse than Saul's, get sentences every bit as light, when they have something to trade. It really isn't that outlandish a plot development.

Yup.

Wernher von Braun was one of the most important figures in NASA history and a key figure in the Apollo program.  From Wiki: "Von Braun is widely seen as either the 'father of space travel', 'father of rocket science' or 'father of the American lunar program'."

He was also a Nazi, SS member, key figure in the development of Nazi warcraft, and his work for the Third Reich employed concentration camp labor. When called to answer for his crimes, his answer was pretty much exactly the same the one Saul used : "I was too afraid for life to do otherwise."

People get away with outrageous crimes all the time.

[PurpleTentacle]

5 hours ago, millennium said:

At least twice in Breaking Bad, Saul/Jimmy suggested murder as a remedy to Walter White's problems.  No boy scout.

If he suggested murder my opinion changes. I don't remember that. Would have to rewatch.

Although there is also the fact that Saul was first concieved as a much more comedic character and so his scenes in BB are only going to fit so-so with the Jimmy we've come to know in this show. There are a few things that don't fit super well. Like who is the Mrs. Goodman Saul mentioned from time to time? Did he make her up? Why? Didn't seem like there was any particular reason.

5 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

He very much knew what was happening with Walt if he just read the news.   He was complicit in the murder of multiple people along with money laundering, many crimes. 

I mean stuff only hit the news and was tied to Walt at the very end. I don't remember him being complicit in any murders (accessory after the fact is a bogus legal construct, btw., I'm no lawyer but I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist in german law, because it's just nonsensical).

Who cares about money laundering from a moral standpoint? Drugs should be legal and the billions that get blown on the war on drugs should be put into prevention and rehabilitation. I can't muster outrage for people giving other people what they want and cleaning the money afterwards.

[Penman61]

When Mike and Saul were in the desert playing time machine, Mike's first date he would travel back to was "[a date] 2001" before then changing his mind to the date in the 1980s when he took his first bribe.

What was the significance of Mike's first date? Was it the day before his son was murdered?

Edited August 16, 2022 by Penman61

[Penman61]

The Mad Men fans here might appreciate this paragraph of Don Draper parallels from the NYTimes review of this ep: 

Quote

Maybe [Jimmy] is finally less comparable to Walter White than to Don Draper of “Mad Men,” another fast-talking slick in a suit whose words save him until they don’t, who is taken with the idea of time machines, who has a history of changing his name and running from trouble. His endgame is not that of a gangster facing down the law but, like Don, of a man finding integrity in his splintered identity.

[Eulipian 5k]

8 hours ago, millennium said:

I could have done with at least some crowds and cameras outside the courthouse.

Not even his film crew showed up; Francesca was busy scouring the news to see if he mentioned her 😨.

[ShadowFacts]

My favorite moment was our defendant standing up and identifying as James McGill, followed by his aside that what be did to Chuck was a crime. Whatever resulted with Kim was secondary to me.

Some of the portrayal of what is presumably a maximum security federal prison was unrealistic. Even at the county jail I'm familiar with, the inmates have a pre approved list of visitors. Kim might have been on it at Jimmy's request, and she might have pulled out her bar card as one form of ID, leading the personnel to make an assumption that got them more privacy. Or she may have intended to mislead. 

I know minimum and medium security prisons have inmates working all kinds of jobs but maybe not realistic here that they are operating a large kitchen where they even bake their own bread.  Kind of a set up for security problems. But I overlook it because it's in service of paralleling with Gene/Cinnabon and allows us to see he's liked by the population.

Just about everything about the plea negotiations, sentencing and disposition is an indictment of our system. To go from 7 to nearly 70 years is freakishly stupid. That the lead prosecutor suddenly buckles at the thought of ruining his track record when the possibility of a hung jury always exists tipped the scale too far in Jimmy's favor for me to buy.

These little nitpicks didn't impact my satisfaction with the ending which I thought was appropriately sad and really the only thing short of death that would make sense to me.

[Constantinople]

33 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Even Charles Manson was allowed visitors and to get married in prison.

Which is why it makes no sense that Kim would need to lie or commit a crime to see Jimmy in prison. Particularly since the whole point of her alleged character development in the second half of the season is that she's learned her lesson from her lies, her schemes and her crimes, and she allegedly accepted responsibility for them.

[scenario]

22 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Yes, it would be a media circus, which is why Saul wouldn't be given a sweetheart deal because the prosecutor was shitting his pants over the possibility of one juror holding out on voting guilty. That would create a firestorm of outage from

• the public
• the media
• law enforcement, particularly the DEA, and more particularly the Albuquerque office of the DEA
• local, state and federal politicians
• Marie. Just because she wears purple doesn't mean she's a shrinking violet. She's not shy with sharing her opinion, and will do so with the press and the people she knows in the DEA. 

Which is why I disagree with @Bannon, who points to cases of notorious criminals who received sweetheart deals for testifying against the likes of El Chapo and John Gotti.

There is no one in the BB/BCS universe at all comparable to an El Chapo or John Gotti that Saul can testify against because they're all dead. Saul admitted in court that he saw Walter White as Saul's "opportunity" and his shot at "big money". It doesn't sound as if Saul has any big time criminals he can deliver to the authorities in exchange for a reduced setence.

The biggest criminal that Saul can deliver is Ed the Disappearer, but no mention was made of him during the episode after Saul was arrested.

Yet we're supposed to believe Saul was given "the most generous sentencing recommendation" the judge has seen "in 22 years on the bench" when he has nothing to offer and when Saul's case would be the subject of intense media coverage.

They mention that the DA had never lost a case. It seems to me that the only way that a DA that never lost a case would be a DA who never took a chance. He will never prosecute a case unless it is a absolutely air tight firm case. Everyone knows that juries are unpredictable. Saul is a good actor. He might get a hung jury after hung jury. He's really that good. 

A political DA whose only worried about his image may prefer to get a sure fire prison sentence than a probable prison sentence. 

1 minute ago, Constantinople said:

Which is why it makes no sense that Kim would need to lie or commit a crime to see Jimmy in prison. Particularly since the whole point of her alleged character development in the second half of the season is that she's learned her lesson from her lies, her schemes and her crimes, and she allegedly accepted responsibility for them.

She didn't learn anything after she split from Jimmy. She was still suffering from PTSD and hadn't moved on. She was terrified of making a mistake. 

[Starchild]

30 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

When Mike and Saul were in the desert playing time machine, Mike's first date he would travel back to was "[a date] 2001" before then changing his mind to the date in the 1980s when he took his first bribe.

What was the significance of Mike's first date? Was it the day before his son was murdered?

I suspect so. At first he thought to save his son. Then he changed his mind and thought to also save himself.

[scenario]

Jimmy is in prison for the rest of his life. Every one of the important people he worked with is dead. There's really no reason to keep a close watch on him anymore. They really don't have the time, money or incentive to watch him like a hawk.

Kim is an accomplished con woman. She has a real lawyers card. She wasn't disbarred, she quit so her name may not set off warning signs in the system. She has visited people in jail so she knows the system. Once she got into see Jimmy, why would anyone bother to look at the list of people who visited a prisoner who has no contacts in the outside world. 

Kim's greatest risk is when she's asking to see him. Once she's left her name is buried in a government data base. It's unlikely that anyone would stumble across it. 

I can see Kim and Jimmy writing letters or sending Christmas cards once in a while. Or maybe a telephone call on each other's birthday. 

[Constantinople]

3 minutes ago, scenario said:

They mention that the DA had never lost a case. It seems to me that the only way that a DA that never lost a case would be a DA who never took a chance. He will never prosecute a case unless it is a absolutely air tight firm case. Everyone knows that juries are unpredictable. Saul is a good actor. He might get a hung jury after hung jury. He's really that good. 

He's really not. See the trial in the very first episode of BCS. The only time he succeeds is when he rigs the outcome (Badger's plea deal, Lalo's bail hearing).

Quote

A political DA whose only worried about his image may prefer to get a sure fire prison sentence than a probable prison sentence.

A political DA agrees to a deal that would create a political firestorm?

Quote

She didn't learn anything after she split from Jimmy. She was still suffering from PTSD and hadn't moved on. She was terrified of making a mistake.

I was referring to Kim's character development in the second half of Season 6. She learned that lies, schemes and crimes have unintended consequences, both on herself and others; that she had to break up with Jimmy to prevent further harm to people, including herself; and that ultimately she had to take responsibility for her actions by confessing.

At least that was true until the closing scene. Then, to quote Nixon's press secretary, "This is the operative statement. The others are inoperative".

[Eulipian 5k]

3 hours ago, anoninrva said:

Were there finger-guns in Casablanca?

"finger-guns" led Kim to cook up the Howard scam. She's not about that anymore.

2 hours ago, Bannon said:

for being such A-holes, I'd be lobbying every prosecutor at any level to see both of those lawyers prosecuted. I'd sue as part if a media campaign to put pressure on the prosecutors.

That was to be Howard's mission, as he promised; but ... Here's Lalo!

Here's Lalo, Bi Br!: New spin-off. Zany Lalo shows up at the end to shoot whomever gets voted out of the Big Brother house. (If you capture the cockroach you are safe).

[scenario]

8 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

He's really not. See the trial in the very first episode of BCS. The only time he succeeds is when he rigs the outcome (Badger's plea deal, Lalo's bail hearing).

A political DA agrees to a deal that would create a political firestorm?

I was referring to Kim's character development in the second half of Season 6. She learned that lies, schemes and crimes have unintended consequences, both on herself and others; that she had to break up with Jimmy to prevent further harm to people, including herself; and that ultimately she had to take responsibility for her actions by confessing.

At least that was true until the closing scene. Then, to quote Nixon's press secretary, "This is the operative statement. The others are inoperative".

A DA whose intensely proud of his never losing a case. It cost a lot of money to try a big time case. The DA has the choice of getting a wanted criminal in prison for 7 years. Or risk the a circus that Jimmy could bring. Some people yelling for Saul's head and others yelling that Saul is being railroaded by a corrupt system. 

He took the easy way out. 

[DrSpaceman73]

2 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

If he suggested murder my opinion changes. I don't remember that. Would have to rewatch.

Although there is also the fact that Saul was first concieved as a much more comedic character and so his scenes in BB are only going to fit so-so with the Jimmy we've come to know in this show. There are a few things that don't fit super well. Like who is the Mrs. Goodman Saul mentioned from time to time? Did he make her up? Why? Didn't seem like there was any particular reason.

I mean stuff only hit the news and was tied to Walt at the very end. I don't remember him being complicit in any murders (accessory after the fact is a bogus legal construct, btw., I'm no lawyer but I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist in german law, because it's just nonsensical).

Who cares about money laundering from a moral standpoint? Drugs should be legal and the billions that get blown on the war on drugs should be put into prevention and rehabilitation. I can't muster outrage for people giving other people what they want and cleaning the money afterwards.

Just deleted.  Bigger argument than for the show basically. 

Edited August 16, 2022 by DrSpaceman73

[ahmerali]

1 hour ago, Penman61 said:

When Mike and Saul were in the desert playing time machine, Mike's first date he would travel back to was "[a date] 2001" before then changing his mind to the date in the 1980s when he took his first bribe.

What was the significance of Mike's first date? Was it the day before his son was murdered?

Day of.

[Dobian]

4 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

But of the problems I expressed in my previous rant, I had the biggest issue with Jimmy unburdening himself in court like that.  I get that there was value in reclaiming his identity as James McGill.  But it was totally out of character for someone who's lived a life of crime since before puberty.  And Kim was in no legal peril so his words didn't help her out in that regard. 

It felt completely out of character to me too.  I think the one thing out of all that which weighed on his conscience was Chuck, because he was singularly responsible for Chuck's death.  That might cause him to do penance.  All of the other things he could hand waive.  he wasn't directly responsible for Hank or Gomez, and even Howard he could rationalize was just bad luck.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Dobian

[Broderbits]

28 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Zany Lalo shows up at the end to shoot whomever gets voted out of the Big Brother house.

Ha! If you want "zany Lalo" just watch Tony Dalton singing and fencing in Hawkeye on Disney+. Very disorienting.....

[Guy Incognito]

1 hour ago, PurpleTentacle said:

If he suggested murder my opinion changes. I don't remember that. Would have to rewatch.

Although there is also the fact that Saul was first concieved as a much more comedic character and so his scenes in BB are only going to fit so-so with the Jimmy we've come to know in this show. There are a few things that don't fit super well. Like who is the Mrs. Goodman Saul mentioned from time to time? Did he make her up? Why? Didn't seem like there was any particular reason.

I mean stuff only hit the news and was tied to Walt at the very end. I don't remember him being complicit in any murders (accessory after the fact is a bogus legal construct, btw., I'm no lawyer but I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist in german law, because it's just nonsensical).

Who cares about money laundering from a moral standpoint? Drugs should be legal and the billions that get blown on the war on drugs should be put into prevention and rehabilitation. I can't muster outrage for people giving other people what they want and cleaning the money afterwards.

This was my one quibble with the finale.  Of all the great writing this show has provided, they really did a bad job of explaining what exactly Jimmy was being charged for and HOW they came to those conclusions. 

What evidence did they actually have against Jimmy as it relates to Walter White, especially to charge him with so much initially?  What could law enforcement have discovered about Saul Goodman as it relates to Walter White? That he was the lawyer used to form the company to buy the car wash? Where is the crime there? What crimes did Saul Goodman commit that the DEA or FBI would have discovered based on the death of Hank and Gomez?

I really dont see what evidence they would have even had against Saul Goodman beside, possibly, money laundering. But what was the actual evidence of that?  He had a lot of money, yeah, but so what? He was a successful lawyer! What evidence did they have that connected him to Walter White aside from Skyler saying they used him as a lawyer?  Walt had mostly cash.  Walt had very little paper trails.  Skyler didn't know 95% of what Walt was actually involved in, so what could she tell?

In regards to the "accessory to murder" charges, which to me were ridiculous.  Let's look at the facts:

1) Nobody ACTUALLY knew what happened to Hank and Gomez, they only know that Walt said on a recorded line that Hank was not coming back because he got in his way. Their bodies were only found when Walt gave Skyler the coordinates to trade.

2) Once those bodies were found, I suppose law enforcement could assume Walt killed them, but he did tell Skyler that Hank and Gomez were killed by the men who stole his money. I assume there would be an investigation of the site, which would produce thousands of shell casings and bullet fragments from all kinds of guns, showing something big happened there. I would have to assume Skyler would have passed that information along, which also happened to be the men who came into her house and threatened her.

3) Walt was killed in a shootout with a group of guys who would all have serious criminal records. Search of that property likely turns up a shit load of Walt's cash and law enforcement should start to be able to put together what happened, including who really killed Hank. Shell casings from the burial site are for sure going to match weapons found on that property.

4) Nobody was actually charged for murdering Hank and Gomez. Can there be an accessory to a charge that never happens? That I have no idea, but seems unreasonable. But if Walt is not the killer, how could Jimmy ever be an accessory to something Walt did not do?

[peeayebee]

Guy Incogito, you raise good points. I would love to see a list of crimes and evidence against Jimmy/Saul.

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

The biggest criminal that Saul can deliver is Ed the Disappearer, but no mention was made of him during the episode after Saul was arrested.

He disappeared.

[Crashcourse]

1 hour ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

What's the problem with Vince Gilligan? IMO he's The Auteur of television right now, until someone even better comes along.

In your opinion he might be, but after BCS I really don't need or want to see any more of his shows.  That's just my opinion.

Now Breaking Bad?  Sure, I watch reruns of that show, but not BCS and his other work.  

[Cosmocrush]

Perfect.

I just had to say this.  Thank you Vince and Peter for this series.  And thank you for a very satisfying ending, not that I had any doubt.  

And now.... back to reading through six+ pages of comments.   😉

[sistermagpie]

9 hours ago, gallimaufry said:

I do feel though that Mike's comment about wanting to check in on Stacey and Kayleigh was due to set up Jimmy checking in on their behalf.  But they were never mentioned again.  I felt this was a black mark on the episode but perhaps in some ways it's the best thing they could do with this: like Mike, there's no way of knowing what happens to the pair of them and so the future is as immutable as the past he regrets.

Wow, I would have thought that was really terrible. We know MIke's obsessed with his daughter in law and granddaughter, but there's really no reason to think they need checking up on, certainly by Saul. They're fine.

6 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

I guess we'll never know why Kim flew back to New Mexico.  Frankly, that part of the plot seems gimmicky to me.  Maybe the writers themselves could not answer that question.

He's the love of her life and she hasn't seen him for 6 years and he's hinting he's going to do something to her at the trial. I think she'd fee pretty compelled to show up no matter what she thought about the physical evidence. If only as part of facing the music..

6 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

For that matter, I wonder why Jimmy decided to spill his guts.  All he had to do was recant his statement about Kim.  Then he would have been out in 7 years, and could be reasonably certain Kim would be there for him when he got out.  

I don't think he'd have any reason to think Kim would be waiting for him when he got out after 7 years.

2 hours ago, luna1122 said:

Neither Bob O or Rhea subscribe to this theory. They both choose to believe Kim will keep visiting him, and don't really want to know if the writers intended differently. I kind of don't want to know either. 

That's what made sense to me. JImmy's locked away forever in part because of his dealings with Kim (not crime-wise, but their development together) and Kim has no real friends on the outside. Why wouldn't they visit?

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

That was before Kim had her come to Jesus moment with Howard and her subsequent confession. Which is exactly my point. Kim's character development in the second half of Season 6 is a thrown out the window.

I still don't see how this goes out the window. After Howard's death she's paralyzed and afraid to make any choices.

Then she gets Jimmy's call and confesses to Cheryl. That makes her able to start making actual decisions for herself based on what she wants or thinks. She decides to go back to law, just not as a lawyer. That's Kim doing something she'd have been terrified of doing earlier because it's something she wants to do. She's living as a whole adult person now.

Part of being a whole adult person is that sometimes you make the shady choice. Is Kim more at risk for going full Giselle if she allows herself a little lie or a con than if she continues to just sit frozen? Maybe. But she's not starting off on a bender either. 

The problem with what happened to Howard wasn't, imo, just that she couldn't predict all the consequences of her lies--the consequences she could easily predict already made it bad. They were much worse, imo, since hurting and humiliating Howard was the whole point of the scam. Worrying about the kind of conicidence that happened with Howard is naturally going to lead to somebody being irrationally paranoid. So it doesn't seem like any big backslide for Kim to decide to see if her card will get her in to see Jimmy privately because she wants to see Jimmy.  She weighed the risk vs. the situation and did it. Just as she decided it was okay to see Jimmy again (whether or not one thinks they're going to continue meeting.)

It's development either way, even if she went completely backwards, but I don't think that's what this is.

Edited August 16, 2022 by sistermagpie

[Eulipian 5k]

12 minutes ago, Guy Incognito said:

Once those bodies were found, I suppose law enforcement could assume Walt killed them, but he did tell Skyler that Hank and Gomez were killed by the men who stole his money.

The operative "word" is RICO. They can tie all of these criminals into one organization. Saul is probably the nexus for all the money the DEA seized. Walt provided the location of 2 dead DEA agents. The DEA will tie all of Walt's chemistry students together if they need to to get everyone remotely involved in those deaths.

BTW: Did Badger & Skinny Pete escape all punishment? Are they famous in the ABQ underworld?

[rlc]

15 hours ago, Constantinople said:

In other words Kim's character development since she left Jimmy, particularly everything in Waterworks, was bullshit.

I viewed this completely differently. There was no character development- Florida Kim was leading a sad, stunted, dull life. She was holding every feeling in, giving non-answers to all questions (defaulting to whatever you think/want as an answer), wearing skirts in the saddest length, and just existing. Kim was my favorite character on this show-- I didn't even mind the ponytails. 

Kim was always being pulled between her desire to do good, and the thrill-seeking part of her personality that was deeply drawn to Jimmy and his schemes. She was the brains of the operation, frighteningly devious without any effort, and probably feeling most alive when indulging that part of herself. 

She and Jimmy truly loved each other, but were not good for each other (or Howard). I'm glad that we didn't see how she arrived at the portion of her life we were introduced to in Florida- a perfectly normal and happy life for many- but not a life for Kim that involved actually living.

The call from Gene/Saul/Jimmy woke her up. Regardless of any future legal or financial repercussions from her actions, she freed herself up to live again, and freed Jimmy up to be Jimmy again. She can volunteer to help at a free law clinic. She can stop being buried in guilt/remorse and move on. 

Most importantly, she can wear pants again instead of those sad mid-calf length skirts. 

[Eulipian 5k]

1 hour ago, peeayebee said:

Of course he should have had the phone unpacked, charged, and ready to go. And he should have had a go-bag in that hole in the wall.

The one lesson he didn't parrot from Mike. Dude was running with a shoe-box, dressed as Elmer Fudd? Too bad he didn't have his Hamlindigo suit and spray tan disguise with him.

[monagatuna]

1 hour ago, PurpleTentacle said:

If he suggested murder my opinion changes. I don't remember that. Would have to rewatch.

I'm pretty sure Saul was the one who coined the phrase "send him to Belize." I can't remember who, though. Jesse once, and then...Badger? But that doesn't sound right. It's been too long since I rewatched.

[DrSpaceman73]

In regard to the evidence against Saul I just assume in two years time in a major cade like this was the police, fbi, dea whoever found some. I don't need a recap of how that happened or specifics.  

And all of it may not even be Walt related.  I'm sure other stuff he was doing as well could be found.  

The point of the episode was not to show the government building a case against him or how they did it.  We all saw it and what he was doing in two different series.  The viewers don't really need convincing he was a crooked lawyer who broke many laws. Maybe you don't agree with the drug or money laundering laws but they still exist. The argument over whether he was or wasn't a criminal has long since been answered and we don't need more evidence for it

[Guy Incognito]

34 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

The operative "word" is RICO. They can tie all of these criminals into one organization. Saul is probably the nexus for all the money the DEA seized. Walt provided the location of 2 dead DEA agents. The DEA will tie all of Walt's chemistry students together if they need to to get everyone remotely involved in those deaths.

BTW: Did Badger & Skinny Pete escape all punishment? Are they famous in the ABQ underworld?

What money did the DEA seize from Walt?  None.  Other than the Car Wash, all of Walt's money was cash in barrels.  The DEA got none of that.  So what exactly are they tying to Saul Goodman?

The only real hard evidence tying Saul Goodman to anything Walter White did illegally was the testimony of Skylar, and what did she really know?  Not much.

[Bannon]

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Yes, it would be a media circus, which is why Saul wouldn't be given a sweetheart deal because the prosecutor was shitting his pants over the possibility of one juror holding out on voting guilty. That would create a firestorm of outage from

• the public
• the media
• law enforcement, particularly the DEA, and more particularly the Albuquerque office of the DEA
• local, state and federal politicians
• Marie. Just because she wears purple doesn't mean she's a shrinking violet. She's not shy with sharing her opinion, and will do so with the press and the people she knows in the DEA. 

Which is why I disagree with @Bannon, who points to cases of notorious criminals who received sweetheart deals for testifying against the likes of El Chapo and John Gotti.

There is no one in the BB/BCS universe at all comparable to an El Chapo or John Gotti that Saul can testify against because they're all dead. Saul admitted in court that he saw Walter White as Saul's "opportunity" and his shot at "big money". It doesn't sound as if Saul has any big time criminals he can deliver to the authorities in exchange for a reduced setence.

The biggest criminal that Saul can deliver is Ed the Disappearer, but no mention was made of him during the episode after Saul was arrested.

Yet we're supposed to believe Saul was given "the most generous sentencing recommendation" the judge has seen "in 22 years on the bench" when he has nothing to offer and when Saul's case would be the subject of intense media coverage.

Saul hasn't personally murdered 18 people; he doesn't need to serve up a John Gotti to get a sweetheart deal. Implicating a decent sized financial institution or two, which a decent sized money launderer could credibly do, might do the trick.

 If somebody thinks it's terribly unlikely that Saul would have testimony that could result in a sentence of less than 10 years, that just runs contrary to my reading of the history of the Dept. of Justice.

[PeterPirate]

15 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Saul hasn't personally murdered 18 people; he doesn't need to serve up a John Gotti to get a sweetheart deal. Implicating a decent sized financial institution or two, which a decent sized money launderer could credibly do, might do the trick.

 If somebody thinks it's terribly unlikely that Saul would have testimony that could result in a sentence of less than 10 years, that just runs contrary to my reading of the history of the Dept. of Justice.

Anything is possible.  But if such matters are not included in the canon of BB, it's just speculation. 

[Eulipian 5k]

5 minutes ago, Guy Incognito said:

What money did the DEA seize from Walt?  None.  Other than the Car Wash, all of Walt's money was cash in barrels.  The DEA got none of that.  So what exactly are they tying to Saul Goodman?

Francesca told Gene about the Fed's seizures. Where did Saul legally get his golden sh#tter money?: from Walt's drug racket. Spooge, et al, did not raise that $; it came from Walt. Don't remember if Saul was part of Mike's Guys set up in the islands. But the Gov't pays Forensic Accountants to find the money trails; which is how they get them from Capone on up. You have to prove your income was legally obtained from legal enterprises.

[scenario]

I don't have that much faith in the U.S. justice system. Things slip through all the time.

It's my understanding that the DA was from the Dept. of Justice not an ABQ DA. In the country as a whole, this case is not that big a deal. Saul is the last loose end of a case that was talked to death months ago. The DA has won every case. If he submits to a plea bargain, the case is closed. He gets another successful conviction. The people in ABQ will be annoyed but the rest of the country will shrug their shoulders. If he tries to prosecute Saul, Saul will turn it into a media circus. He decides to take the easy way out. He wants to retire and get a nice cushy job at a big law firm. A conviction of Saul would help him. A media circus would not. 

Kim was a lawyer. She knew how the system worked. She used that knowledge to talk her way in to see Jimmy. The people there don't want aggravation. If there was nothing on Saul's file saying not to do it, it was easier to just let the high powered lawyer see her client. She probably went through a medal detector to search for weapons and maybe a drug sniffing dog. They weren't that worried about cigarettes.

The number of police chasing Saul was over the top but it was another case of taking a short cut. We really don't want to take half the episode up of three or four cops taking a couple of days tracking him down. 

It does require a suspension of disbelief to some extent but I don't think people would really like a four hour show showing lawyers negotiating. Fictional shows always have some suspension of disbelief to create drama.  

[Ottis]

3 hours ago, luna1122 said:

Neither Bob O or Rhea subscribe to this theory. They both choose to believe Kim will keep visiting him, and don't really want to know if the writers intended differently. I kind of don't want to know either. 

I don't know how visitation works, but that New Mexico bar card with no expiration date won't work forever.

3 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

"So you were always like this?" Yeah, pretty much. Pretty much the theme for the entire series.

But the ending says that Jimmy doesn't choose to continue to "be like this." He had two choices at the end (note the 'Exit" sign with 2 directional arrows in the courtroom shot), and he chose to be different at the end. And Kim recognized that.

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Which is why I disagree with @Bannon, who points to cases of notorious criminals who received sweetheart deals for testifying against the likes of El Chapo and John Gotti.

It wasn't about what Saul could give them. It was about game recognizing game ... the US side realizing the talents of Saul Goodman and the gullibility of the general public. Did they want to take that chance? No. Now, does that mean 160 years becomes 7? Probably not. But for the purposes of this show making a point, no problem from me.

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't think he'd have any reason to think Kim would be waiting for him when he got out after 7 years.

I don't think we knew if she would be waiting for him after 7 months, if he didn't come clean and become the person she fell in love with. In the end, he chose Jimmy and Kim, at great cost.

Overall, I like the ending. Want to think about it more.