S06.E13: Saul Gone

[aghst]

That's even more stupid.

So it was self-motivation to have himself incarcerated for the rest of his life?

People just don't do that, no matter how much they feel guilty, how much remorse they may have.

[Eulipian 5k]

Jimmy will be the next Andy Dufresne. Probably end up on a beach in Samoa, go land crabs!

9 hours ago, Adiba said:

I speculate that Jimmy will be a jailhouse lawyer, possibly helping some dangerous criminals on their appeals. He'll likely be figuring out ways to get more privileges, goods, etc. in prison. 

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, aghst said:

It would be believable if they sacrificed their lives for a loved one instead

Kim IS his loved one. Biology doesn’t make a family. 

Edited August 19, 2022 by Cinnabon

[SimplexFish]

2 hours ago, jnymph said:

Jimmy’s very clear redemption and that he loved Kim so much he’d spend his life in prison. 

That is just plain ridiculous! Not your assumption, but that they indeed wrote it that way. I personally expected so much more from G&G.

IMO, the entire finale was so poorly written that its hard to believe the same writers that for over 120 previous combined episodes were so detail orientated, so meticulous, so brilliant, so cunning, so adroitly ingenious that they just gave up on the last one! So many thoughtless, implausible missteps and odd aberrations that it was beyond disappointing to me...

For the fans that liked or even "loved it"...good for you and to each their own.

Edited August 19, 2022 by SimplexFish

[PeterPirate]

23 hours ago, BC4ME said:

This is a beautiful take on the last scene. As I read or heard somewhere else, in the end, it was a love story. An epic love story. 

On 8/18/2022 at 1:31 PM, Cinnabon said:

Quote

Here is the Serbian Gals' (that's what I call them) reaction video.  

You have the patience of a saint!

Well, the only other video of theirs that I have watched all the way through is the one for Fun and Games.  I find most reaction videos hard to sit through.  But these two are just so smart and able to process an episode on the fly that it is entertaining to listen to them. 

But another aspect of their videos that makes them unique is just how much they love Kim and Jimmy, and the love story between them.  They pointed out that Kim was only person who ever loved Jimmy, and that loved save him at the end.  

Edited August 19, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Starchild]

51 minutes ago, SimplexFish said:

That is just plain ridiculous! Not your assumption, but that they indeed wrote it that way. I personally expected so much more from G&G.

IMO, the entire finale was so poorly written that its hard to believe the same writers that for over 120 previous combined episodes were so detail orientated, so meticulous, so brilliant, so cunning, so adroitly ingenious that they just gave up on the last one! So many thoughtless, implausible missteps and odd aberrations that it was beyond disappointing to me...

For the fans that liked or even "loved it"...good for you and to each their own.

This forum needs a "Agree to disagree" reaction ;)

[Eulipian 5k]

1 hour ago, PeterPirate said:

They pointed out that Kim was only person who ever loved Jimmy, and that loved saved him at the end. 

Will anyone else ever visit Jimmy? He’ll have to make a life on the inside. He may refer her clinic to an inmate or two, and help many with their appeals. But Kim needs to find another “time of my life” elsewhere. 
btw

Was blonde Kim Wexler part of an alter-ego for an up and coming attorney, like Saul?

[PeterPirate]

4 hours ago, aghst said:

Gene was upset with that phone call, when at the end Kim suggested he turn himself in.

So upset he almost messed up that robbery, sticking around too long to smoke the guy's cigars and drink his expensive booze.

Almost murdered the guy to get away and had an impulse to strangle the Carol Burnett character.

So I guess he had an epiphany and even though he tried to escape, he accepted his fate when captured.

Those who praise the ending said Jimmy was accepting his guilt, coming to peace with it.

Yet he was able to negotiate a relatively cushy deal and throw it all away for the chance to see Kim again and get her to like him again.

How many people would choose life in prison, little or no probability of parole, because their ex spouse might respect them more for it?

It would be believable if they sacrificed their lives for a loved one instead.  But the writers were saying life in prison is still better than death?  Because Jimmy wasn't going to be attacked by the other prisoners because of his commercials.

Wasn't he prosecuted by federal prosecutors so he would be in federal prison, maybe not even in New Mexico?

In any event they couldn't do the sacrificing of his life for others thing because they already did that with WW.

I posted a rant like this a day or so after the episode aired.

But then I realized the key factor was Kim filing her affidavit and coming clean with the authorities and with Cheryl.  That paved the way for Jimmy to follow if he wanted to restore himself in her eyes, and his own as well.  

That's the story.  Everyone is going to have their own response about whether it was a satisfying one.  I can count myself fortunate because I am doubly satisfied.  All of the pieces of the story fit together into a seamless narrative.  That was most important to me, and since the mid-season break I've been like Kim, putting the pieces of the puzzle together without looking at the picture.  But I was also fortunate enough to get the redemption story at the end that I have wanted for several months.  

[millennium]

13 hours ago, MrWhyt said:

Mike ended up in a barrel of acid like Drew Sharp.

For some reason I don't remember that, and I have watched the series a few times.  I guess the memorable image of Mike sitting by the water telling Walt "Shut up and let me die in peace" eclipsed the barrel in my memory.

[EdwinSorrow]

I've spent the past few days thinking about this finale. A beautiful and poignant ending that not only stuck the landing, but elevated the entire series in my eyes. 

Odenkirk did his best acting on the show (and of his career, of course), shifting personas from the weaselly Saul Goodman to vulnerable and introspective Jimmy McGill, while still making his personalities feel like the distinct sides of the same human being. He was beautifully played off of as always by the moving Rhea Seehorn, whose silent facial acting in the courtroom scene I'd say was even better than her performance in Waterworks. I don't know that I'd say I have a preference between this and its predecessor (which I'll need to fully rewatch) but this finale cemented Better Call Saul as a show that, even if never quite as addictive as the pulp entertainment of Breaking Bad, was the more thoughtful and challenging drama. 

Edited August 19, 2022 by EdwinSorrow

[Dev F]

5 hours ago, aghst said:

That's even more stupid.

So it was self-motivation to have himself incarcerated for the rest of his life?

People just don't do that, no matter how much they feel guilty, how much remorse they may have.

I mean, people in the real world don't literally do that—in the same way that no one in the real world literally transforms from a mild-mannered chemistry teacher into history's most notorious techno-wizard meth kingpin. But in the same way that people do become debased and corrupted by a festering sense of entitlement like Walter White, they also do sometimes insist on taking responsibility for their actions even though it means accepting a much greater punishment like Jimmy McGill. Is there really a "people just don't do that" threshold that disqualifies a sleazy lawyer choosing to spend eighty-four years in prison, but not a drug kingpin poisoning a little kid to frame another kingpin for trying to frame him so his onetime partner will switch sides and help him blow up the other kingpin? Over-the-top crime-thriller plotting is just the language of these series.

The only major difference, it seems to me, is that most of the comparable plot points are about the characters making over-the-top selfish choices rather than over-the-top selfless ones. But the Gilliganverse has never been seemed so cynical or cruel that it allows for hyperbolic gestures of resentment and cruelty but not hyperbolic gestures of decency and love.

What's more, this fictional universe hasn't just established a precedent of baroque crime-thriller twists in general, it's laid the groundwork for this twist in particular. In the Breaking Bad episode in which Saul is first introduced, we meet another character named Jimmy who volunteers to get sent to prison over and over, having spent "forty-four of the last fifty years inside" because, as Saul puts it, "he's actually more comfortable inside. The outside world hasn't been too kind to him." And in Saul's last Breaking Bad episode, he tries to convince Walt that he should accept a prison sentence instead of being disappeared, because he has a wife he can't leave high and dry. It seems like the writers have long suggested that this sort of thing both does and maybe should happen in their universe.

[ShadowFacts]

3 hours ago, Dev F said:

What's more, this fictional universe hasn't just established a precedent of baroque crime-thriller twists in general, it's laid the groundwork for this twist in particular. In the Breaking Bad episode in which Saul is first introduced, we meet another character named Jimmy who volunteers to get sent to prison over and over, having spent "forty-four of the last fifty years inside" because, as Saul puts it, "he's actually more comfortable inside. The outside world hasn't been too kind to him." And in Saul's last Breaking Bad episode, he tries to convince Walt that he should accept a prison sentence instead of being disappeared, because he has a wife he can't leave high and dry. It seems like the writers have long suggested that this sort of thing both does and maybe should happen in their universe.

Jimmy's twist is different from these other two you mention. There are recidivists who are comfortable in prison because the outside world is too tough, but Jimmy thrived in whatever world he was in, as he said to his co-counsel, he was going to come out on top like he always did. That was before the 86 year sentence. Walt was never going to see a prison sentence, he was going to die first. I don't think either example is groundwork for what Jimmy did.  We may like to think he's going to have an okay time in federal prison, honing his baking skills and advising inmates. He's still locked up. He's not on top anymore. But I don't see a hyperbolic gesture of decency and love. That would have been something like never scamming and nearly strangling Marion and just going ahead with vacuum cleaner man.  He got a sad ending and it was deserved. I don't see a grand gesture, I also don't see a great love story, I see a mixed bag of unhealthy selfish behaviors that hurt a lot of people which has now come to an end.

[Lalo Lives]

15 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

She told me it will drop soon.  Yesterday she dropped a collaboration with another reviewer named Anton Jackson, but I don't watch collabs.

I too don’t like dual analyzers. Too much “you’re great, No YOU are.”

But I watched this one since Courtney does such a great job.

That said, it was 80+ min of ok detail, but not the intense scrutiny Courtney usually delivers.

I’ll be curious as to what her take is when she does her individual study of 0613.

[aghst]

5 hours ago, Dev F said:

I mean, people in the real world don't literally do that—in the same way that no one in the real world literally transforms from a mild-mannered chemistry teacher into history's most notorious techno-wizard meth kingpin. But in the same way that people do become debased and corrupted by a festering sense of entitlement like Walter White, they also do sometimes insist on taking responsibility for their actions even though it means accepting a much greater punishment like Jimmy McGill. Is there really a "people just don't do that" threshold that disqualifies a sleazy lawyer choosing to spend eighty-four years in prison, but not a drug kingpin poisoning a little kid to frame another kingpin for trying to frame him so his onetime partner will switch sides and help him blow up the other kingpin? Over-the-top crime-thriller plotting is just the language of these series.

The only major difference, it seems to me, is that most of the comparable plot points are about the characters making over-the-top selfish choices rather than over-the-top selfless ones. But the Gilliganverse has never been seemed so cynical or cruel that it allows for hyperbolic gestures of resentment and cruelty but not hyperbolic gestures of decency and love.

What's more, this fictional universe hasn't just established a precedent of baroque crime-thriller twists in general, it's laid the groundwork for this twist in particular. In the Breaking Bad episode in which Saul is first introduced, we meet another character named Jimmy who volunteers to get sent to prison over and over, having spent "forty-four of the last fifty years inside" because, as Saul puts it, "he's actually more comfortable inside. The outside world hasn't been too kind to him." And in Saul's last Breaking Bad episode, he tries to convince Walt that he should accept a prison sentence instead of being disappeared, because he has a wife he can't leave high and dry. It seems like the writers have long suggested that this sort of thing both does and maybe should happen in their universe.

What does that have to do with Saul?

He’s not poor or unable to live comfortably.  He’s not homeless, hadn’t been incarcerated before.

He negotiated to get fancy ice cream and a county club prison but he not only opts into a much greater sentence, he’s willing to go to a facility with hardened criminals?

He had no way of knowing that all the prisoners there were fans of his because of his commercials, another premise which is also highly dubious.

He wasn’t happy living as Gene so maybe he had emotional problems.

The judge should have had him see a psychiatrist to see if he’s mentally competent for asking for an 86 year sentence instead of the 7 years the prosecution had agreed to.

Such a huge disparity in outcomes and it’s the defendant choosing the worst outcome.  If he was represented by a lawyer, that lawyer would be sued for malpractice.

[Lalo Lives]

10 hours ago, SimplexFish said:

That is just plain ridiculous! Not your assumption, but that they indeed wrote it that way. I personally expected so much more from G&G.

IMO, the entire finale was so poorly written that its hard to believe the same writers that for over 120 previous combined episodes were so detail orientated, so meticulous, so brilliant, so cunning, so adroitly ingenious that they just gave up on the last one! So many thoughtless, implausible missteps and odd aberrations that it was beyond disappointing to me...

For the fans that liked or even "loved it"...good for you and to each their own.

I love the show. I want friends and family to watch it. But I may tell them there are only 5 seasons. Sure Nacho’s swan song (saga) was good (not great), Howard’s death was shocking….but, for me the last season was tepid, overall. I thought Lalo’s demise was “What? A lucky shot from an overweight “house cat” via a telegraphed scheme?” The entire Jeffy, Gene, Marion thing left me wanting more.

It all may have fit with the narrative. It may have fit the overall arc. But I felt a bit cheated.

Perhaps I will rethink it in a year with a rewatch.

But we are stuck with it like we are stuck with only the revamped (George Lucas is a fart, only thing available on dvd or Blu-ray) 4-6 Star Wars, or the director’s cut of Apolcalypse Now.

19 minutes ago, Lalo Lives said:

Edited August 19, 2022 by Lalo Lives
ForsomedamnedreasonIquotedmyself

[PeterPirate]

15 minutes ago, aghst said:

The judge should have had him see a psychiatrist to see if he’s mentally competent for asking for an 86 year sentence instead of the 7 years the prosecution had agreed to.

Technically, Jimmy didn't ask for or agree to an 86 year sentence.  He just changed his allocution and threw himself on the mercy of the court.  He could appeal the huge increase in the amount of time to be served, because he did not admit any new crimes.  On the other hand, the crimes he did commit came with Life Plus 190.  

11 hours ago, aghst said:

That's even more stupid.

So it was self-motivation to have himself incarcerated for the rest of his life?

People just don't do that, no matter how much they feel guilty, how much remorse they may have.

Well, it was also unrealistic for Kim to file her affidavit and give a copy to Cheryl in person.  I just think a willingness to suspend disbelief is necessary if one is going to enjoy or appreciate many works of fiction.  Casablanca is full of plot holes and it was stupid for Rick to send Ilsa away with Victor away instead turning Victor to the Nazis of flying off with her.  But it is still considered one of the top three movies of all time. 

[SimplexFish]

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

We may like to think he's going to have an okay time in federal prison, honing his baking skills and advising inmates. He's still locked up. He's not on top anymore.

And no hookers! Well at least not female ones...  

[peeayebee]

14 hours ago, BC4ME said:

At the end of season four, Jimmy shocks Kim after his seemingly genuine speech to get his license back. She fell for it (though granted parts of it may have been true). He then shocks her further by the name change and finishes up with the finger pistols.  

At the end of season five, Kim shocks Jimmy (and us!) by using them after talking about going for Howard. 

So this season's end it's Jimmy's turn to use the finger pistols again. I suppose you could say he shocked her earlier by coming clean. (She didn't return them and the way she looks at him when she leaves is open to interpretation, which is perfect. As much as I wanted her to return them, it wasn't the right choice for the end IMO.) But since this is again the final scene, is there a tie in to the other two seasons I'm missing? I'm just not ready to let the finger pistols go yet without thinking about it some more. 

I may be micro-analyzing. Jimmy's finger-guns are different from Kim's. Hers were more like guns. Jimmy's were more like simply pointing. His first one (after the name change) was like, "I'm great!" or "I'm da man!" or something like that. His final gesture was something akin to that, maybe more like, "I'm doing fine." He was reassuring her that he'd be ok as well as calling back to their old life together. 

12 hours ago, aghst said:

That's even more stupid.

So it was self-motivation to have himself incarcerated for the rest of his life?

People just don't do that, no matter how much they feel guilty, how much remorse they may have.

As others responded, it's fiction. Many of us don't want to watch characters who are exactly like people in real life. We want to watch themes and deeper meanings enacted. Gene/Jimmy/Saul didn't want to go to prison, but he was caught. Then, in full Saul mode, he worked the system to get his prison stay as lenient and comfortable as possible. If he hadn't overreached (in going for the ice cream) he wouldn't have learned about Kim's confession. And he wouldn't have been hit in the gut.

I still don't think he was really doing anything for her, although I've read reviews saying he saved her. (I really don't get it. Did he contradict anything she said in her affidavit?)

But he saw she was doing the right thing, and he saw how disgusting he was in avoiding responsibility and consequences for everything he's done.

BCS has shown that his life as Gene was not fulfilling. It was like he was in prison, until he started doing scams again. 

His confession showed that Kim's opinion of him was more important than his freedom. 

[Starchild]

7 hours ago, Dev F said:

What's more, this fictional universe hasn't just established a precedent of baroque crime-thriller twists in general, it's laid the groundwork for this twist in particular. In the Breaking Bad episode in which Saul is first introduced, we meet another character named Jimmy who volunteers to get sent to prison over and over, having spent "forty-four of the last fifty years inside" because, as Saul puts it, "he's actually more comfortable inside. The outside world hasn't been too kind to him." And in Saul's last Breaking Bad episode, he tries to convince Walt that he should accept a prison sentence instead of being disappeared, because he has a wife he can't leave high and dry. It seems like the writers have long suggested that this sort of thing both does and maybe should happen in their universe.

Interesting callbacks. Apparently G&G said that when BCS wrapped up we'd look at BB in a new light. I know I'll be looking at Saul in a new light. Both of the examples above seem, on the surface, to be a slimy lawyer manipulating human emotions. But I'm going to be looking at it now as Saul still having some of the kinder motivations of Jimmy, even if he does also use them to his advantage,

5 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

BCS has shown that his life as Gene was not fulfilling. It was like he was in prison, until he started doing scams again. 

Gene was at the edge, a breath away from becoming irredeemable. He clawed his way back to Saul, and there he rediscovered Jimmy. I've said it before, I found the character parallelism established in the finale to be breathtaking.

S1 to final minutes of 6.12: Jimmy --> Saul --> Gene

6.13: Gene --> Saul --> Jimmy 

That's an epic journey that no other character made, in either show. Beautiful.

[PeterPirate]

1 hour ago, peeayebee said:

I may be micro-analyzing. Jimmy's finger-guns are different from Kim's. Hers were more like guns. Jimmy's were more like simply pointing. His first one (after the name change) was like, "I'm great!" or "I'm da man!" or something like that. His final gesture was something akin to that, maybe more like, "I'm doing fine." He was reassuring her that he'd be ok as well as calling back to their old life together. 

This is true.  Kim was all "Pew pew!" when she did the finger thing.  

1 hour ago, peeayebee said:

I still don't think he was really doing anything for her, although I've read reviews saying he saved her. (I really don't get it. Did he contradict anything she said in her affidavit?)  

We don't know what he told the authorities.  It doesn't matter, though, because he had no corroborating evidence.  Kim was not in legal peril, and she knew it.   She was not in handcuffs at the hearing, nor did she bring an attorney.  In my mind she showed up to see if the old Jimmy would re-emerge.  

1 hour ago, peeayebee said:

Many of us don't want to watch characters who are exactly like people in real life. We want to watch themes and deeper meanings enacted.

Of course, there are those who are willing to take an established work of fiction and replace the deeper meanings and themes with modern ones, and cast actors based on whether they reflect real life (*cough* Rings of Power *cough*).  

Edited August 19, 2022 by PeterPirate

[aghst]

They’re still human characters.

We’ve seen noble acts of sacrifice in fiction.

Even 7 years at a country club prison is a hardship.  Bernie Madoff died in prison.

Nobody wants to spend a minute in prison.  If there’s not some innate drive to be free, the idea of freedom as something to be cherished, as something not to be taken for granted, is something that’s internalized BY everyone in the culture.

Any fictional work pretending to depict human motivation or nature can’t be asking it’s human viewers to believe someone would choose to leave himself vulnerable to the most harsh punishment.

We’ve speeded or gone through a red light as it turned or double parked somewhere brIefly.  Do we go to the police and ask for citations?

Or maybe bumped into or scraped another car in a parking lot and drove away.  Do people go back and seek out the owner?

Or even worse, maybe run over someone, panics and speeds away.

None of these are ethical behaviors but the very first impulse is to flee, avoid punishment, penalties and potentially beIng ruined financially.

I know they wanted to show Jimmy being virtuous in the end but it’s a very strange act.  It would be better if he made a mistake and got a sentence which he didn’t expect at all.  but they said the penalty could be as much as 200 years.

Saul demanding ice cream is very much in character, not because of the perk itself but because he was winning again over these prosecutors, who probably had greater legal pedigrees — prestigious legal schools, great track records, etc.

But to immediately change and go against a lifetime of hubris, you’d think it was a deathbed  confession.

Except he wasn’t on his deathbed.

[PeterPirate]

14 minutes ago, aghst said:

Any fictional work pretending to depict human motivation or nature can’t be asking it’s human viewers to believe someone would choose to leave himself vulnerable to the most harsh punishment.  

It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to than I have ever known.

[Fool to cry]

Loved the finale. Jimmy's a romantic. The man married young had we know had over the top reactions to two of his divorces. If you don't think he would have done what he did at the end then you weren't paying attention the past 6 seasons. 

He may have done it for personal reasons but it also benefitted society. We were reminded one last time what an absolute menace Saul Goodman can be! Only seven years out of a minimum security prison he would have come out more dangerous than before.

I read a great thing online that said BCS made Walter White a footnote in Jimmy and Kim's story which would have really pissed him off!

Edited August 19, 2022 by Fool to cry

[Cinnabon]

8 hours ago, Dev F said:

And in Saul's last Breaking Bad episode, he tries to convince Walt that he should accept a prison sentence instead of being disappeared, because he has a wife he can't leave high and dry.

Thanks for this reminder!

3 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

Jimmy's twist is different from these other two you mention. There are recidivists who are comfortable in prison because the outside world is too tough, but Jimmy thrived in whatever world he was in, as he said to his co-counsel, he was going to come out on top like he always did. That was before the 86 year sentence. Walt was never going to see a prison sentence, he was going to die first. I don't think either example is groundwork for what Jimmy did.  We may like to think he's going to have an okay time in federal prison, honing his baking skills and advising inmates. He's still locked up. He's not on top anymore. But I don't see a hyperbolic gesture of decency and love. That would have been something like never scamming and nearly strangling Marion and just going ahead with vacuum cleaner man.  He got a sad ending and it was deserved. I don't see a grand gesture, I also don't see a great love story, I see a mixed bag of unhealthy selfish behaviors that hurt a lot of people which has now come to an end.

He wasn’t on top living as Gene. That was worse than prison in many ways. He was completely isolated.

[BC4ME]

1 hour ago, peeayebee said:

I may be micro-analyzing. Jimmy's finger-guns are different from Kim's. Hers were more like guns. Jimmy's were more like simply pointing. His first one (after the name change) was like, "I'm great!" or "I'm da man!" or something like that. His final gesture was something akin to that, maybe more like, "I'm doing fine." He was reassuring her that he'd be ok as well as calling back to their old life together. his freedom. 

No, you're right. Not micro-analyzing. I mean, I'm micro-analyzing to keep harping on this when everybody else seems satisfied. I did see that difference in the finger guns but didn't know what it meant in terms of ending the last three seasons that way (generally). 

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Lalo Lives said:

I love the show. I want friends and family to watch it. But I may tell them there are only 5 seasons. Sure Nacho’s swan song (saga) was good (not great), Howard’s death was shocking….but, for me the last season was tepid, overall. I thought Lalo’s demise was “What? A lucky shot from an overweight “house cat” via a telegraphed scheme?” The entire Jeffy, Gene, Marion thing left me wanting more.

That's interesting because to me, looking back, Howard's death is the most important thing in the story. That and Chuck's death are the most important things to happen to Jimmy and on the show. Not because his death was shocking since once Lalo walks in you know it's the only way that can go, but because it's the moment the two sides come together, a true consequence of the games he's been playing. After that he has to go one way or the other, and Kim goes one way, Jimmy the other (because of what she does.)

3 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Technically, Jimmy didn't ask for or agree to an 86 year sentence.  He just changed his allocution and threw himself on the mercy of the court.  He could appeal the huge increase in the amount of time to be served, because he did not admit any new crimes.  On the other hand, the crimes he did commit came with Life Plus 190.  

FWIW, the show's writers seem to think he won't die in prison at all, that he will absolutely manage to get his sentence reduced again. Whether that's realistic in terms of real world law, it's definitely their thinking. And he might do some of that in a better prison as well. I don't think they're thinking that way because of the practical facts, but just saying where Jimmy is mentally. He's not beaten down like Kim when she confessed to Cheryl. He's accepted the consequences of his actions, including in court, as putting him in jail now, but he's not punishing himself via prison for the rest of his life.

[GiuliettaMasina]

2 hours ago, aghst said:

They’re still human characters.

We’ve seen noble acts of sacrifice in fiction.

Even 7 years at a country club prison is a hardship.  Bernie Madoff died in prison.

Nobody wants to spend a minute in prison.  If there’s not some innate drive to be free, the idea of freedom as something to be cherished, as something not to be taken for granted, is something that’s internalized BY everyone in the culture.

Any fictional work pretending to depict human motivation or nature can’t be asking it’s human viewers to believe someone would choose to leave himself vulnerable to the most harsh punishment.

https://www.pal-item.com/story/news/local/2018/03/11/taryn-twine-richmond-teen-driver-fatal-crash-featured-netflix-show/409875002/

"A documentary series about girls at a juvenile detention center in Indiana features the story of a Richmond teen who chose to spend time there after one of her friends died in a car accident."
 

[gallimaufry]

I think one reason I don't find it remotely problematic that Jimmy would chuck in his freedom in such a dramatic fashion is that he's always moved in big, impulsive gestures without regard to consequence, at least as far back as the Chicago Sunroof.  Chuck counted on it when he set up the sting for Jimmy in 302.  Objectively, Jimmy has a lot to repent for and clearly is a danger to the public and doesn't learn or stop himself so it makes sense for him to have a long sentence.  I think he forces himself to override his self-interest.  Yes, it's heroic but it's essentially a more positive expression of the same behaviour we've seen from him all along.

One thing I will say: if there's any episode of anything where someone deserved an Emmy, surely it's Bob Odenkirk in this.  He's not flashy with it at all but it's incredible how many different iterations of the same character, each very subtly different, he presents:

- Pre-BCS Jimmy
- BCS S5 Neophyte Saul
- BB-era Saul
- Gene
- Saul
- James

In one scene, he transitions from Gene to Saul; in another, he plays James acting as Saul until the reveal.  In every flashback, there's a tension between the two.  It's really masterful. 

[SimplexFish]

5 hours ago, Lalo Lives said:

I love the show. I want friends and family to watch it. But I may tell them there are only 5 seasons.

Make it 5 1/2! LOL

[Starchild]

41 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Howard's death is the most important thing in the story. That and Chuck's death are the most important things to happen to Jimmy and on the show.

Jimmy would agree with you, since those were the highlights of his confession (along with taking credit for WW's success lol so sweet)

25 minutes ago, gallimaufry said:

One thing I will say: if there's any episode of anything where someone deserved an Emmy, surely it's Bob Odenkirk in this.  He's not flashy with it at all but it's incredible how many different iterations of the same character, each very subtly different, he presents:

- Pre-BCS Jimmy
- BCS S5 Neophyte Saul
- BB-era Saul
- Gene
- Saul
- James

In one scene, he transitions from Gene to Saul; in another, he plays James acting as Saul until the reveal.  In every flashback, there's a tension between the two.  It's really masterful. 

Don't forget the many flavours of Viktor St. Clair!

I think it's telling that, with all his personas, and with the show title referencing Saul, at the end of it all most of us are calling him Jimmy. That's the version of himself that we want him to remain.

[ShadowFacts]

I think it's good to remember that Gene was trying to run away and use his diamonds to get another shot at hiding, but he was caught in a dumpster. I only saw three believable potential endings, and I didn't need to see him killed, didn't want to see him get away again, and was happy seeing him in prison. The plotting to get there, though, was not that satisfying to me, unless it was at least partially meant to lampoon criminal justice. Then it worked better. I don't view his oration in open court as anything a scheming Saul would do, nor was it necessary for Kim. He could have said it all privately to her, or written it. He's laying himself bare, as Jimmy, I get that, I like him taking responsibility for what he did to Chuck especially, but opening himself up to the mega sentence, not necessary.  It's over the top. That's just me, it's all personal preference.

2 hours ago, BC4ME said:

No, you're right. Not micro-analyzing. I mean, I'm micro-analyzing to keep harping on this when everybody else seems satisfied. I did see that difference in the finger guns but didn't know what it meant in terms of ending the last three seasons that way (generally). 

My take on her not returning the gesture is that last time she used it was signalling her intent to ruin Howard's reputation, and she will never use it again because of how that worked out. She's turning in her weapons.

45 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

FWIW, the show's writers seem to think he won't die in prison at all, that he will absolutely manage to get his sentence reduced again.

Then why didn't they indicate that in some way? It undercuts what they wrote.

29 minutes ago, gallimaufry said:

One thing I will say: if there's any episode of anything where someone deserved an Emmy, surely it's Bob Odenkirk in this.

Amen. And he was coming off a near-fatal heart attack. What a feat.

[SimplexFish]

Ya know with the fans that are forestalling other fans dislike for the finale by saying "its fiction", that is true. However I don't think I have ever once heard that excuse given for any other episode of BCS or BB.  The reason for that is its never been necessary to remind fans its a fictional show because the writing had never left so many huge back to back implausibilities in a single episode before as Saul Gone has. 

[Cinnabon]

Just now, SimplexFish said:

Ya know with the fans that are forestalling other fans dislike for the finale by saying "its fiction", that is true. However I don't think I have ever once heard that excuse given for any other episode of BCS or BB.  The reason for that is its never been necessary to remind fans its a fictional show because the writing had never left so many huge back to back implausibilities in a single episode before as Saul Gone has. 

Forestalling? 

[SimplexFish]

12 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Forestalling? 

Yes

fore·stall

/fôrˈstôl/

verb

gerund or present participle: forestalling

prevent or obstruct 

Edited August 19, 2022 by SimplexFish

[Fool to cry]

If it had been a sentimental ending then it would be false because the BB/BCS universe but I don't think the protagonist getting life in prison is sentimental. It's a romantic ending which is appropriate because it was a surprisingly romantic show.

I love how the black and white was used to show the dreariness and banality of Saul's new life in Omaha and then Kim's life in Florida. Then it turns into this perfect film noir scene with their them smoking together in prison. They really became like the old movies characters they watched.

My big fear when the show started was it might taint the original Breaking Bad but it enhanced and enriched it.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Fool to cry

[sistermagpie]

30 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Then why didn't they indicate that in some way? It undercuts what they wrote.

I think because they didn't mean that to be part of the story. The ending is that he's accepted this sentence. This is where it ends. The stuff about him not serving it is just their imagining Jimmy's future for themselves based on knowing him, but they don't know what exactly would happen. 

It's like, imo, Jesse driving away free is the note BB is meant to end on, even if when they thought about it, people would be searching for him etc. The ending of the story is clear, but life goes on. 

[SimplexFish]

Courtney

Edited August 19, 2022 by SimplexFish

[Dev F]

40 minutes ago, SimplexFish said:

Ya know with the fans that are forestalling other fans dislike for the finale by saying "its fiction", that is true. However I don't think I have ever once heard that excuse given for any other episode of BCS or BB.  The reason for that is its never been necessary to remind fans its a fictional show because the writing had never left so many huge back to back implausibilities in a single episode before as Saul Gone has. 

As I said, I'm fairly certain that the presence of "huge back-to-back implausibilities" is not the main difference between this story and the one on Breaking Bad in which Walt poisoned a kid to frame another drug kingpin for framing him (while also being careful to use a poison that would later make it look like the kid poisoned himself accidentally), to convince his former partner, who'd been swayed to the kingpin's side in an elaborate campaign involving the kingpin's fixer, who's also Walt's lawyer's PI, to switch sides again and take out the kingpin—which, after the first attempt to blow him up failed, involved attaching a bomb to the bell on the wheelchair of the other kingpin's nemesis and having him pretend to turn rat to lure the kingpin to his nursing home, and when the bomb went off it blew off exactly half of the kingpin's face to the bone, but he was still able to get up and walk out of the room and fussily adjust his tie one last time before he dropped dead.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Dev F

[aghst]

12 minutes ago, Fool to cry said:

I love how the black and white was used to show the dreariness and banality of Saul's new life in Omaha and then Kim's life in Florida. Then it turns into this perfect film noir scene with their them smoking together in prison. They really became like the old movies characters they watched.

I look at black and white being used as an artistic affectation.

B&W film and photography was historically a technical limitation.

So some film makers and photographers choose to use B&W sometimes.  For photos, it's a simple click in photo editing software, though some people may put in subtle grading and tones and use a lot of Photoshop operations to achieve a look.

I'm sure in a show like this, B&W is heavily post-processed as well.

Whatever the process, the effect is to reduce immersion because it calls attention to itself.

We obviously don't view the world this way nor have we viewed photos and films this way for decades now.

It calls attention to the artifice.  But for what end?

Yeah we get it, Kim and Gene were living drab, colorless, joyless lives after the thrill of the grifting they did together.  To me it's a heavy-handed way to convey these themes, the use of a blunt instrument.

I identify more with the coastal elites than flyover country but to represent Omaha and whatever part of FL as this colorless, nondescript places is probably going to offend people.

It's not impossible that there is something in these places that either or both enjoy, which adds color to an otherwise drab existence, like the thrill of pulling off the heist for Jimmy, enjoying someone else's fancy cigars and booze.  It's not inconceivable that Kim was into whatever dishes or interests that her social circle was into.

Sure the lugubrious air, the colorless light that hung over them was their guilt, their conscience.  They may not have obsessed a lot about their misdeeds but they were always on the verge of breakdowns, such as Kim sobbing in that bus.

Though I recall a lot of shots in earlier seasons where Kim and Jimmy were hanging out behind HHM, smoking and talking and they played around a lot with shadows.  It wasn't B&W but obviously the goal was a noir-ish effect.

[PeterPirate]

24 minutes ago, SimplexFish said:

Ya know with the fans that are forestalling other fans dislike for the finale by saying "its fiction", that is true. However I don't think I have ever once heard that excuse given for any other episode of BCS or BB.  The reason for that is its never been necessary to remind fans its a fictional show because the writing had never left so many huge back to back implausibilities in a single episode before as Saul Gone has. 

Fair enough.  But I would add that once a person sets the bar for fictional characters at "realistic"--or makes any other kind of global negative statement--it precludes them from being able to meaningfully discuss the episode and/or show.  

When some of us say "It's fiction", what we are really saying is "We are willing to suspend disbelief in order to appreciate the episode/show".   It's a way to get clarity about who is, and who is not, willing to talk about the show from that perspective. 

[SimplexFish]

9 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Fair enough.  But I would add that once a person sets the bar for fictional characters at "realistic"--or makes any other kind of global negative statement--it precludes them from being able to meaningfully discuss the episode and/or show.  

When some of us say "It's fiction", what we are really saying is "We are willing to suspend disbelief in order to appreciate the episode/show".   It's a way to get clarity about who is, and who is not, willing to talk about the show from that perspective. 

I understand...and I respect that, I wasn't throwing shade just adding an opinion 

On to something less serious...

Why the Mint Chocolate Chip ice cream! LOL

https://screenrant.com/better-call-saul-mint-chocolate-chip-ice-cream-meaning/amp/

Edited August 19, 2022 by SimplexFish

[sistermagpie]

45 minutes ago, aghst said:

I'm sure in a show like this, B&W is heavily post-processed as well.

I thinkt they actually shoot it digitally in color and remove the color.

45 minutes ago, aghst said:

Yeah we get it, Kim and Gene were living drab, colorless, joyless lives after the thrill of the grifting they did together.  To me it's a heavy-handed way to convey these themes, the use of a blunt instrument.

I identify more with the coastal elites than flyover country but to represent Omaha and whatever part of FL as this colorless, nondescript places is probably going to offend people.

It's not impossible that there is something in these places that either or both enjoy, which adds color to an otherwise drab existence, like the thrill of pulling off the heist for Jimmy, enjoying someone else's fancy cigars and booze.  It's not inconceivable that Kim was into whatever dishes or interests that her social circle was into.

Sure the lugubrious air, the colorless light that hung over them was their guilt, their conscience.  They may not have obsessed a lot about their misdeeds but they were always on the verge of breakdowns, such as Kim sobbing in that bus.

I think it must be obvious to even people who live in Florida or Omaha that the black and white has nothing to do with the places they are. Whatever one thinks of the decision to use the b&w, it's eventually simply a time thing, like the way plenty of other movies use different color to indicate a different place or time. Otherwise Jimmy or Kim's life would have gone to color again when things got more interesting. Like, obviously there's nothing drab or colorless about her confession to Cheryl, or Jimmy's scam with Jeffy. And it doesn't track with them being weighed down by guilt either, since nothing goes to color once they've dealt with those things. Saul's life doesn't turn to b&w when Kim leaves him and goes to Florida, and neither does Kim's. Also, the stuff in color isn't happening in Albuquerque, previously mostly known for being the hometown of Ethel Mertz and the place Bugs Bunny should have taken a left turn.

In fact, one advantage to doing it in black and white is the fact is that since movies started using the different colors for places--I think it started with the movie Traffic?--people actually think the different place look like that. Like people literally think Mexico is yellow and Eastern Europe is green.

Edited August 19, 2022 by sistermagpie

[peeayebee]

4 hours ago, aghst said:

Nobody wants to spend a minute in prison.  If there’s not some innate drive to be free, the idea of freedom as something to be cherished, as something not to be taken for granted, is something that’s internalized BY everyone in the culture.

I can't agree that NOBODY wants to spend a minute in prison. Very few people, but not nobody. 

Some people think they deserve to be punished. That punishment can come in many different forms. Prison is one way. That was Jimmy's choice -- or actually, he didn't have a choice because he was going to prison for at least 7 years. The thing is, he saw that Kim had owned up to her actions. He decided to own up to his as well. 

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

My take on her not returning the gesture is that last time she used it was signalling her intent to ruin Howard's reputation, and she will never use it again because of how that worked out. She's turning in her weapons.

I like that.

35 minutes ago, Dev F said:

As I said, I'm fairly certain that the presence of "huge back-to-back implausibilities" is not the main difference between this story and the one on Breaking Bad in which Walt poisoned a kid to frame another drug kingpin for framing him (while also being careful to use a poison that would later make it look like the kid poisoned himself accidentally), to convince his former partner, who'd been swayed to the kingpin's side in an elaborate campaign involving the kingpin's fixer, who's also Walt's lawyer's PI, to switch sides again and take out the kingpin—which, after the first attempt to blow him up failed, involved attaching a bomb to the bell on the wheelchair of the other kingpin's nemesis and having him pretend to turn rat to lure the kingpin to his nursing home, and when the bomb went off it blew off exactly half of the kingpin's face to the bone, but he was still able to get up and walk out of the room and fussily adjust his tie one last time before he dropped dead.

Well, when you put it that way. :D

[peeayebee]

53 minutes ago, SimplexFish said:

Courtney

I haven't watched any AntonJackson stuff. He's new to me. I don't know if I'll watch this. Almost an hour and a half. Ugh. I watched the first few minutes, impatient with all the cross-praise. Maybe I'll give it a shot later.

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, SimplexFish said:

Yes

fore·stall

/fôrˈstôl/

verb

gerund or present participle: forestalling

prevent or obstruct 

LOL I didn’t see others trying to prevent anyone else from having their own opinions, but ok. 🙂

[Cinnabon]

56 minutes ago, aghst said:

I identify more with the coastal elites than flyover country but to represent Omaha and whatever part of FL as this colorless, nondescript places is probably going to offend people.

Who cares, though? I’ve loved both on the coast and in flyover country and I absolutely had a more colorful, interesting life on the coast. I never considered myself particularly “elite,” though. Sometimes the truth hurts. 

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, aghst said:

It's not inconceivable that Kim was into whatever dishes or interests that her social circle was into.

To me, it IS inconceivable and I think the show creators agree with me. Obviously YMMV.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Cinnabon

[Cinnabon]

29 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Like people literally think Mexico is yellow and Eastern Europe is green.

A lot of brain trusts out there. 🤣

[gallimaufry]

1 hour ago, SimplexFish said:

Ya know with the fans that are forestalling other fans dislike for the finale by saying "its fiction", that is true. However I don't think I have ever once heard that excuse given for any other episode of BCS or BB.  The reason for that is its never been necessary to remind fans its a fictional show because the writing had never left so many huge back to back implausibilities in a single episode before as Saul Gone has. 

See, I think (for the sake of comparison) the "Breaking Bad" finale requires way more suspension of disbelief.  You need to believe that Walt MacGuyvers a system to shoot a machine gun, is able to park his vehicle in the exact right spot, has all his enemies in range at the right time before they can go for their weapons and manages to duck and avoid bullets long enough to finish what he started.  It's absolutely preposterous.  But it's great television.

Saul's ending comes down to whether you believe a character decision is believable or not and actually I think it is.  Given the choice between being free without the respect of Kim or in prison but with Kim's regard, I completely buy why Jimmy chooses as he does.

[PeterPirate]

15 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Quote

It's not inconceivable that Kim was into whatever dishes or interests that her social circle was into.

To me, it IS inconceivable and I think the show creators agree with me. Obviously YMMV.

Anything is possible.  But I don't recall Kim looking at dish patterns or having a social circle when she lived in New Mexico.  

Edited August 19, 2022 by PeterPirate