S06.E12: Waterworks

[peeayebee]

2 hours ago, Penman61 said:

Gene doesn't have plenty of time, and he knows it: Marion and Jeff have his name, his car's make/model. LEOs can run that info instantly and get his driver's license and address.  

No, he doesn't have plenty of time, but he has a head start. He ran out of Marion's house. He has time to drive to his house, get the diamonds and maybe a go-bag, then high-tail it outta Dodge. Maybe he'll have time to change his car plates. Hard to tell how fast the police will get to Marion's house, but then like you said, they can easily run his name and get his address.

49 minutes ago, Starchild said:

Knowing this universe, it wouldn't surprise me if those diamonds landed in a landfill or at the bottom of some lake.

I was thinking the same thing.

1 hour ago, DrSparkles said:

Living in the south, people rave about it like it is something special. So I bought it and tried it in a couple of different things, potato salad, sandwiches, etc. I do not like it. I prefer Hellmann’s

I like Hellman's, too. Making lunch today, I used the last of the mayo, so I'm going to get my regular Hellman's and as small a bottle of Duke's as I can find.

1 hour ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Duke's Mayo and Yep, yep,yep. Is that your fanfic proposal?

Nope, nope, nope.

As others said, Kim could have done volunteer legal aid or something where she's really helping people (and not just helping people keep their grass green). But she didn't want to be in a position where she had to make a decision. She didn't trust herself. She may have thought that removing herself from the equation was enuf for her to do, because all she wanted at that point was to do no more harm.

I wonder if we'll see more of her, maybe leaving the sprinkler company and doing some real good in the world. 

[Bannon]

12 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

Because I needed something to do on Monday I rewatched about half of season 1.   Although alot of elements remain the same and last through the series Season 1 Jimmy is alot different then Season 6 Jimmy/Saul/Gene.    For one thing Jimmy loved his brother and went out of his way to care for him.   There was a scene where Chuck appeared to get Jimmy out of jail (I forget if he actually did or not) but because of this Jimmy secretly went into law school in part to make Chuck proud.   He had no idea that that was the last thing Chuck wanted and probably exasperated whatever was actually was wrong with him.   But my point is that season 1 Jimmy loved Chuck even if Chuck never quite gave him what he wanted or need which was ironically approval.    

This is all important because I think that is ultimately what Jimmy is a little boy who needs his brother's approval.  Who needs Kim's approval.   Who was ultimately left with nothing because he was left to fall back on his worst instincts because no one was there to show him different.   By the time the Gene and Marion confrontation happens Jimmy/Saul/Gene has nothing left.   This little old lady who he probably actually liked looks at him the same way Chuck did.     

Oh I am not saying he didn't deserve it.   That by this point Jimmy might be too far gone to save.  It is just interesting to see where he was at the pilot and how many times someone could have just pat him on the head and said "good boy"  or gave him the incentive to go into a branch of law that might have appealed to his Slippin Jimmy side.  Heck told him straight up that HHM was not the law firm for him and give him a letter of recommendation to another law firm.   

Because Jimmy was a "good"  lawyer.   Saul Goodman was a "Good criminal" lawyer.   Gene was just a good criminal.  

I really encourage those who have only watched this story once to start at the beginning again, to fully appreciate the complexity of Jimmy/Saul/Gene. It really deserves a 2nd watch.

7 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

No, he doesn't have plenty of time, but he has a head start. He ran out of Marion's house. He has time to drive to his house, get the diamonds and maybe a go-bag, then high-tail it outta Dodge. Maybe he'll have time to change his car plates. Hard to tell how fast the police will get to Marion's house, but then like you said, they can easily run his name and get his address.

I was thinking the same thing.

I like Hellman's, too. Making lunch today, I used the last of the mayo, so I'm going to get my regular Hellman's and as small a bottle of Duke's as I can find.

Nope, nope, nope.

As others said, Kim could have done volunteer legal aid or something where she's really helping people (and not just helping people keep their grass green). But she didn't want to be in a position where she had to make a decision. She didn't trust herself. She may have thought that removing herself from the equation was enuf for her to do, because all she wanted at that point was to do no more harm.

I wonder if we'll see more of her, maybe leaving the sprinkler company and doing some real good in the world. 

Gene is certainly smart enough to understand the utility in having another car stored somewhere, registered in another name, just in case.

[Starchild]

17 minutes ago, ahmerali said:

I think she may have meant both, but more about him as a person.

Yeah exactly. That his worth as a lawyer was driven by his goodness as a person.

Once upon a time.

[Scout Finch]

1 hour ago, SimplexFish said:

Exactly! Now I think Saul knows all of this and how to get around it (he was the burner phone king), however did he have a preplanned and set up for quick a get-a-way before Marion blew him out of the water?  

LOL, for a second I read that as "burger king phone"!

[Starchild]

15 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

I like Hellman's, too. Making lunch today, I used the last of the mayo, so I'm going to get my regular Hellman's and as small a bottle of Duke's as I can find.

I used Miracle Whip on my roast beef sandwich at lunch today. Delish! :)

[ShadowFacts]

46 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

I wonder if we'll see more of her, maybe leaving the sprinkler company and doing some real good in the world. 

I think I would be happy not seeing her again.  Her powerful scene on the shuttle bus is something I don't think can be topped or equaled (watch me be proven wrong).  Not that I wish for her to have only that drab life in Florida, but leaving it open-ended would be fine with me.  I can see her moving on but I really don't want to be told in what way.

[Ellaria]

3 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I think he has to move fast, and he may have just enough time to grab his diamonds which will pay for another vacuum cleaner job.  I can't see the series ending in Omaha.  Those Chekhov's diamonds have to be for something, just like Marion's computer was.

Love the reference to Chekhov’s diamonds. Yes, they have to come into play but I don’t think another vacuum cleaner visit will be successful. (And not because Robert Forster is dead.) And I agree…this story doesn’t end in Omaha.

2 hours ago, SimplexFish said:

Exactly! Now I think Saul knows all of this and how to get around it (he was the burner phone king), however did he have a preplanned and set up for quick a get-a-way before Marion blew him out of the water?  

My guess is yes… Gene has always had a quick getaway planned. He does have that police radio.

1 hour ago, peeayebee said:

No, he doesn't have plenty of time, but he has a head start. He ran out of Marion's house. He has time to drive to his house, get the diamonds and maybe a go-bag, then high-tail it outta Dodge. Maybe he'll have time to change his car plates. Hard to tell how fast the police will get to Marion's house, but then like you said, they can easily run his name and get his address.

Right…he has a head start. Is that enough? Maybe depending on how far away Marion lives. Get back to his house, grab the stash under the floorboards and get going. Drive to a remote location and change the plates.

I imagine the first thing that the police will do is get to Marion’s house and ensure that she is safe. Then they will begin to sort thru the Saul/Gene identities and likely contact the Albuquerque police. And, in the meantime, they will speak with Jeff who will tell them about the nature of their crimes.

I think that Gene gets back to Albuquerque. That’s where it ends for him, one way or another.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Ellaria Sand

[Constantinople]

2 hours ago, SimplexFish said:

Exactly! Now I think Saul knows all of this and how to get around it (he was the burner phone king), however did he have a preplanned and set up for quick a get-a-way before Marion blew him out of the water?  

If Saul hadn't before, you'd think he would have after OG Jeff confronted him in the mall. 

[SimplexFish]

5 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

If Saul hadn't before, you'd think he would have after OG Jeff confronted him in the mall. 

Agreed

Im in/was in the minority here, a big part of me wanted Saul to escape and live happily ever after, well whatever "happy" is for him, I liked Jimmy/Saul. However, after he was going to desecrate the poor doogos ashes and the urn potentially break open when hitting cancer man over the head, I hope only the worst for Saul...jail, death, pain, dragged through the streets of ABQ by his toe nails would be too good for this POS. 

Edited August 10, 2022 by SimplexFish

[carrps]

2 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Does b&w Kim get Rhea a second Emmy nomination? I was mouth agape during that airbus ride breakdown, Wow, just wow.

On Talking Saul, Rhea said it was her first Emmy nom.

[Constantinople]

3 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

Those Chekhov's diamonds have to be for something, just like Marion's computer was.

Leaked rehearsal scene from next week's episode with Laurence Olivier playing Saul and Dustin Hoffman playing a now angry Jeff

[peeayebee]

44 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Love the reference to Chekhov’s diamonds.

Chekhov sure had a lot of stuff.

Quote

Right…he has a head start. Is that enough? Maybe depending on how far away Marion lives. Get back to his house, grab the stash under the floorboards and get going. Drive to a remote location and change the plates.

Yes, I think it's enough. I'm 99% sure we won't see Gene/Saul arrested by the police. Dramatically, that would be dullsville. There'll probably be close calls, but I doubt we'll see him caught, which is not to say he'll get away and live to live another life.

I just watched the two videos PeterPirate posted (plus pickled peppers). Both very good. The one analyzing the episode had some observations I hadn't heard yet. He points out that Jesse and Kim, meeting in front of Saul's office, have both survived their respective tyrants. Kim is leaving hers, whereas Jesse has yet to have the Walter White/Heisenberg experience. Also, both Kim and Jesse are symbolically facing the elements (the rain), with Kim running right out into it.

[ItsHelloPattiagain]

3 hours ago, DrSparkles said:

Living in the south, people rave about it like it is something special. So I bought it and tried it in a couple of different things, potato salad, sandwiches, etc. I do not like it. I prefer Hellmann’s

I have lived in the South and still have family there. Although I'm not a mayonnaise person, people SWEAR by Duke's.  https://www.southernliving.com/food/dukes-mayo-southern-food

 And I loved the attention to detail with the lady trying to make the deviled eggs with the colors of FSU (Florida State University - garnet and gold, rather than yellow and red).  These are serious Southern housewife-ly types lol. 

This episode had me yelling at my TV screen like I was at an old school horror movie.  I was hoping Slippin' Jimmy wasn't going to slip so far as to choke out Marion. And what a tough cookie to press that button! 

[Cosmocrush]

4 hours ago, Bannon said:

I disagree that someone who deliberately self-sabotaged, out of a profound sense of remorse, the attempt to obtain several million dollars, that was nearly within his grasp, that he had pursued for years, has an inherently weak conscience, or is in any real sense a sociopath. Gene/Saul/Jimmy is much more interesting than this. To me, he is consumed by rage, triggered by a (quite rational) sense of betrayal, and he allows that rage to help him rationalize profoundly immoral behaviors. He really does have an heavily grounded emotional grasp of what constitutes shameful conduct, however.

I agree and I think we saw this when Gene seemed to have a moment of "What am I doing?!" while holding the phone cord threatening Marion and she says, "I trusted you."  A sociopath would have just done it.  Or maybe just dispatched with Jeffry from the start.

[Eulipian 5k]

17 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Leaked rehearsal scene from next week's episode with Laurence Olivier playing Saul and Dustin Hoffman playing a now angry Jeff

Pleeze don't remind me of "Is it safe?" True horror.

Rhea's first Emmy nomination was announced around when Plan & Execution came out. I need her second this year for Waterworks, 🥰 she's waited long enough!!

[sistermagpie]

15 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

Chekhov sure had a lot of stuff.

Yes, I think it's enough. I'm 99% sure we won't see Gene/Saul arrested by the police. Dramatically, that would be dullsville. There'll probably be close calls, but I doubt we'll see him caught, which is not to say he'll get away and live to live another life.

I just watched the two videos PeterPirate posted (plus pickled peppers). Both very good. The one analyzing the episode had some observations I hadn't heard yet. He points out that Jesse and Kim, meeting in front of Saul's office, have both survived their respective tyrants. Kim is leaving hers, whereas Jesse has yet to have the Walter White/Heisenberg experience. Also, both Kim and Jesse are symbolically facing the elements (the rain), with Kim running right out into it.

Can't help but think that Jesse chose not to leave, stupidly returned and got himself trapped until his tyrant freed him and let him go.

40 minutes ago, carrps said:

On Talking Saul, Rhea said it was her first Emmy nom.

I think they mean she ought to get a second one next year for this.

[Ottis]

6 hours ago, Adiba said:

I think my impatience with the two episodes focusing on the Gene scams were that the series is ending and I wanted the pace faster--although I do realize that's not how this show works. The character development did not bother me--we had to see how Gene devolved back into Saul and sociopathy. (BTW, sociopaths do have a conscience, it is just very weak.)

I would have rather it be shown in one episode, with Genes scams escalating throughout, but just my taste (as we've seen here with the mayo discussion, taste vary, lol).

100% agree. If we watched these 2 eps sitting next to each other, I could call out scenes that could be deleted and change nothing (starting with all the sit downs over a Cinnebon with Jerry from Parks & rec ... one was enough). It was obvious, quickly, that Gene's life was dull, and using a con to back off the two who recognized him sucked Gene back into the action. No need to see the store manager calls, etc. It was all "rich detail," I get it. But when you only have a few eps left of a show that has been on for years, the details should be about progress, not depth, IMO. Or - show these eps late last season, and spare us now, and have the show end soon after lalo and Howard's deaths.

And I don't give a crap about mayo or what brand anyone likes. It's all the same, unnecessary condiment!

Edited August 10, 2022 by Ottis

[scenario]

I think Kim is still suffering from PTSD she got when she saw Howard die. Soldiers sometimes suffer from it decades after they get out of the war. 

[Constantinople]

3 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Does b&w Kim get Rhea a second Emmy nomination? I was mouth agape during that airbus ride breakdown, Wow, just wow.

41 minutes ago, carrps said:

On Talking Saul, Rhea said it was her first Emmy nom.

Was Rhea referring to her work in the first half of Season 6?

I ask because the Emmy year starts on June 1st of the previous year and ends on May 31st of the current year. Part 1 of Season 6 aired before May 31st, so Part I would be eligible for the 2022 Emmys. Part 2 aired in July and August. So Rhea's work in Part 2, such as Florida Kim, would be eligible for the 2023 Emmys.

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Ottis said:

100% agree. If we watched these 2 eps sitting next to each other, I could call out scenes that could be deleted and change nothing (starting with all the sit downs over a Cinnebon with Jerry from Parks & rec ... one was enough). It was obvious, quickly, that Gene's life was dull, and using a con to back off the two who recognized him sucked Gene back into the action. No need to see the store manager calls, etc. It was all "rich detail," I get it. But when you only have a few eps left of a show that has been on for years, the details should be about progress, not depth, IMO. Or - show these eps late last season, and spare us now, and have the show end soon after lalo and Howard's deaths.

But tbf, it's not like they would have written more stuff in the story instead. Those things were what were needed to get Gene to where he was in this ep. The process of the con is what sucks Jimmy back in.

[carrps]

1 minute ago, Constantinople said:

Was Rhea referring to her work in the first half of Season 6?

I ask because the Emmy year starts on June 1st of the previous year and ends on May 31st of the current year. Part 1 of Season 6 aired before May 31st, so Part I would be eligible for the 2022 Emmys. Part 2 aired in July and August. So Rhea's work in Part 2, such as Florida Kim, would be eligible for the 2023 Emmys.

Thanks. I didn't realize when the Emmy season began and ended. 

[BC4ME]

1 hour ago, SimplexFish said:

Agreed

Im in/was in the minority here, a big part of me wanted Saul to escape and live happily ever after, well whatever "happy" is for him, I liked Jimmy/Saul. However, after he was going to desecrate the poor doogos ashes and the urn potentially break open when hitting cancer man over the head, I hope only the worst for Saul...jail, death, pain, dragged through the streets of ABQ by his toe nails would be too good for this POS. 

I can't imagine what fate you'd have hoped for him if he'd actually broken the urn lol.

[Blakeston]

18 hours ago, Bannon said:

I suppose anything she did at Lalo's direction could be said to have been the result of coercion. That doesn't cover the felonious drugging of Howard, of course.

Kim lying to the police about Howard's activities the night he died wasn't done at Lalo's direction. 

She lied because Mike told her to lie, and because revealing why Howard came to her home, and what he really said to her and Jimmy, would have exposed her to criminal liability.

She could argue that she reasonably believed that Mike would kill her if she told the truth. That wouldn't preclude her from being charged, though.

54 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Kim is smart and capable and aspired to be Atticus Finch.  She could have equaled if not surpassed Chuck.  She can still help people legally, perhaps not as a lawyer, but as someone mentioned above, she could be the best paralegal in the world.  

Kim would be a notorious figure after word got out about her affidavit.

Howard's death would have been a big deal when it happened. One of the most prominent lawyers in the state goes missing, and then his car is found covered in coke, and he's never found. A lot of people in New Mexico would have known the story.

Saul's disappearance would be an even bigger story. He was already very well known in the area from his over-the-top persona and commercials. The revelation that mild-mannered chemistry Walter White was a drug lord (who was responsible for a hugely sought after form of meth taking the country by storm) would be a national news story, and Saul would be a big part of it. Him being on the run would draw even more attention to him.

Once Kim reveals that Howard was actually murdered, and that she and Saul were involved and helped cover it up, that would be a big news story too.

No one would hire Kim to do anything legal from that point on, even if she avoids prison.

[Bannon]

58 minutes ago, Ottis said:

100% agree. If we watched these 2 eps sitting next to each other, I could call out scenes that could be deleted and change nothing (starting with all the sit downs over a Cinnebon with Jerry from Parks & rec ... one was enough). It was obvious, quickly, that Gene's life was dull, and using a con to back off the two who recognized him sucked Gene back into the action. No need to see the store manager calls, etc. It was all "rich detail," I get it. But when you only have a few eps left of a show that has been on for years, the details should be about progress, not depth, IMO. Or - show these eps late last season, and spare us now, and have the show end soon after lalo and Howard's deaths.

And I don't give a crap about mayo or what brand anyone likes. It's all the same, unnecessary condiment!

It's rich detail that illuminates chatacter, and yes, even after àll these years, the complex character of Jimmy/Saul/Gene can still benefit from illumination, in this case, how morally depraved is he willing to be? Will he personally, deliberately, murder completely innocent civilians? To fully confront that question, it's really useful, in my opinion, to show the Gene scams in their fullest detail, which alllows the relationships with Jeffy, Buddy, and Marion to be fully sussed out, which is helped by showing us the painstaking effort that goes into the scams. The cinnamon bun deliveries to the security guards, and other scenes that may appear to be filler, help develop that. 

I'll never try to convince someone that they should like what they don't, or not like what they do, because I think it's good that people have different opinions on this stuff.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Bannon

[Cinnabon]

From Vulture: 

“Waterworks,” an aptly named episode given the sprinkler connection and that stunning Kim breakdown scene on the airport shuttle, shows us what Kim’s life in Titusville actually looks like, and friends, it’s pretty bleak. One could argue that Kim has suffered a fate even worse than death: She’s boring — and stuck in Florida.

https://www.vulture.com/article/better-call-saul-waterworks-kim-wexler-episode-12-analysis.html#comments

Someone in the comments section describes Kim’s Florida life as “worse than a horror movie.”  Yes, it really, really is. As I said right after watching the episode, I’d rather be shot in the head by Lalo than live that life. Jail would be a step up.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Cinnabon

[scenario]

14 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

Kim lying to the police about Howard's activities the night he died wasn't done at Lalo's direction. 

She lied because Mike told her to lie, and because revealing why Howard came to her home, and what he really said to her and Jimmy, would have exposed her to criminal liability.

She could argue that she reasonably believed that Mike would kill her if she told the truth. That wouldn't preclude her from being charged, though.

Kim would be a notorious figure after word got out about her affidavit.

Howard's death would have been a big deal when it happened. One of the most prominent lawyers in the state goes missing, and then his car is found covered in coke, and he's never found. A lot of people in New Mexico would have known the story.

Saul's disappearance would be an even bigger story. He was already very well known in the area from his over-the-top persona and commercials. The revelation that mild-mannered chemistry Walter White was a drug lord (who was responsible for a hugely sought after form of meth taking the country by storm) would be a national news story, and Saul would be a big part of it. Him being on the run would draw even more attention to him.

Once Kim reveals that Howard was actually murdered, and that she and Saul were involved and helped cover it up, that would be a big news story too.

No one would hire Kim to do anything legal from that point on, even if she avoids prison.

Sometimes people in shock describe the situation as being outside their body looking down. When Kim saw Howard murdered in front of her eyes, she was in shock. She wasn't thinking, she was following orders. She did what Lalo told her to do. She did what Mike told her to do. She wasn't capable of making a decision. 

Six years later and she still haunted by PTSD. She has a difficult time deciding if Miracle Whip is a good substitute for mayo or strawberry vs vanilla. Gene told her to confess and she just obeyed because she knew it was the right thing to do. 

Everything that tormented her hit her on the bus. She spent the last 6 years totally numb trying not to feel the pain and it finally hit her.

[Bannon]

15 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

Kim lying to the police about Howard's activities the night he died wasn't done at Lalo's direction. 

She lied because Mike told her to lie, and because revealing why Howard came to her home, and what he really said to her and Jimmy, would have exposed her to criminal liability.

She could argue that she reasonably believed that Mike would kill her if she told the truth. That wouldn't preclude her from being charged, though.

Kim would be a notorious figure after word got out about her affidavit.

Howard's death would have been a big deal when it happened. One of the most prominent lawyers in the state goes missing, and then his car is found covered in coke, and he's never found. A lot of people in New Mexico would have known the story.

Saul's disappearance would be an even bigger story. He was already very well known in the area from his over-the-top persona and commercials. The revelation that mild-mannered chemistry Walter White was a drug lord (who was responsible for a hugely sought after form of meth taking the country by storm) would be a national news story, and Saul would be a big part of it. Him being on the run would draw even more attention to him.

Once Kim reveals that Howard was actually murdered, and that she and Saul were involved and helped cover it up, that would be a big news story too.

No one would hire Kim to do anything legal from that point on, even if she avoids prison.

Neither Mike or Lalo are alive to contradict Kim. Yes, she could be prosecuted. No, it is not the slam dunk case that prosecutors prefer. Frankly, she's flat out admitted to participating in a criminal conspiracy to corrupt a legal proceeding integral to the Sandpiper lawsuit, which entails litigants in several states, by deliberately and covertly drugging a partitcipating lawyer. That's an easy day at the office for a Federal prosecutor looking to put another notch on his holster.

[scenario]

1 minute ago, Cinnabon said:

From Vulture: 

“Waterworks,” an aptly named episode given the sprinkler connection and that stunning Kim breakdown scene on the airport shuttle, shows us what Kim’s life in Titusville actually looks like, and friends, it’s pretty bleak. One could argue that Kim has suffered a fate even worse than death: She’s boring — and stuck in Florida.

Someone in the comments section describes Kim’s Florida life as “worse than a horror movie.”  Yes, it really, really is.

To me it's not horrible because its boring. It's horrible because she's stuck in it. The Kim we saw in Florida was not capable of doing anything more than her tedious job. 

If that's the life she really chose and she enjoyed it, it would be fine. But this version of Kim has had all the joy sucked out of her. She's not capable of enjoying life anymore. 

[PeterPirate]

19 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

Quote

Kim is smart and capable and aspired to be Atticus Finch.  She could have equaled if not surpassed Chuck.  She can still help people legally, perhaps not as a lawyer, but as someone mentioned above, she could be the best paralegal in the world. 

Kim would be a notorious figure after word got out about her affidavit.

Howard's death would have been a big deal when it happened. One of the most prominent lawyers in the state goes missing, and then his car is found covered in coke, and he's never found. A lot of people in New Mexico would have known the story.

Saul's disappearance would be an even bigger story. He was already very well known in the area from his over-the-top persona and commercials. The revelation that mild-mannered chemistry Walter White was a drug lord (who was responsible for a hugely sought after form of meth taking the country by storm) would be a national news story, and Saul would be a big part of it. Him being on the run would draw even more attention to him.

Once Kim reveals that Howard was actually murdered, and that she and Saul were involved and helped cover it up, that would be a big news story too.

No one would hire Kim to do anything legal from that point on, even if she avoids prison.

I've been saying for months and months that Kim should do several years in prison.  But even if she doesn't, the people she could help the most won't care much about her past crimes as long as she gives them sound advice.  

Even without the affidavit, I think Kim's career at Palm Coast Sprinkler is over.  Now that Carol Burnett hit the button, Saul Goodman's name will be national news again, only this time there's a phone call to Kim from a pay phone in Omaha.  

[scenario]

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

Neither Mike or Lalo are alive to contradict Kim. Yes, she could be prosecuted. No, it is not the slam dunk case that prosecutors prefer. Frankly, she's flat out admitted to participating in a criminal conspiracy to corrupt a legal proceeding integral to the Sandpiper lawsuit, which entails litigants in several states, by deliberately and covertly drugging a partitcipating lawyer. That's an easy day at the office for a Federal prosecutor looking to put another notch on his holster.

It seems to me it would be the kind of case where she'd plead guilty and be sentenced to 3 to 5 years in prison and actually serve a few months and have to do community service and be on parole for the rest of the time.

It's white collar crime. A black guy sells a small amount of drugs, 10 years in prison. An attractive white woman does white collar crime destroying people's lives, 3 to 5, no actual time in prison. 

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, scenario said:

It seems to me it would be the kind of case where she'd plead guilty and be sentenced to 3 to 5 years in prison and actually serve a few months and have to do community service and be on parole for the rest of the time.

It's white collar crime. A black guy sells a small amount of drugs, 10 years in prison. An attractive white woman does white collar crime destroying people's lives, 3 to 5, no actual time in prison. 

Federal convictions don't allow for that kind of time served, if the sentence is 3 to 5. The judge basically has to say "Hey, your offense is nearly entirely inconsequential", for an offender to serve a few months.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Bannon

[TheOtherOne]

Another from Vulture. Good read about the meaning of the Kim-Jesse scene.

Better Call Saul’s Most Surprising Crossover Transcends Fan Service

The whole thing is worth reading, and could quote it all, but the last several paragraphs are very well stated.

Quote

Better Call Saul has gotten much better at disguising any proclivity to overmythologizing, treating its characters as people with rich inner lives first and chess pieces second. Gus Fring’s (likely) last appearance in the Breaking Bad universe, for example, isn’t his meeting with Don Eladio and Hector, which closes the loop on Gus’s franchise-spanning story line. It’s a quiet, plotless scene of him making a genuine connection, human to human, before remembering what his life is and leaving the moment behind.

Jesse’s appearance in “Waterworks” also highlights Better Call Saul’s maturity at this stage; he’s as much a guest star in Kim’s story as she is in his, both of them unaware of the fatefulness of this meeting. Standing there outside Saul Goodman’s office in 2004, they’re at completely different points in their intersecting trajectories: Kim has been through hell with Jimmy already, while Jesse is still years away from making a deal with the devil. (He’s met Walt but only as his chemistry teacher.) If Jesse went on to escape his waking nightmare and find a measure of peace, could Kim?

Many of the recent debates about whether Better Call Saul has surpassed Breaking Bad in quality miss the point; these are two series that remain deeply in conversation with each other, in the final episodes more than ever. Tragedies from Better Call Saul are felt in Breaking Bad, while tragedies from Breaking Bad loop back around to inform Better Call Saul, reverberating forward and backward in time. It’s the type of storytelling that can be achieved only by these particular series working in concert, and that’s epitomized by just one short, crowd-pleasing conversation between two flawed people we care about deeply. The unlikely heroes of these stories are the characters who look at their pasts with clear eyes — who dare to see themselves for who they were and who they are, no matter how much it hurts.

Edited August 10, 2022 by TheOtherOne

[paigow]

9 hours ago, SimplexFish said:

I thought I would clarify that Cindy actually wore two pigtails and never a single ponytail.

https://www.charactour.com/hub/characters/view/Cindy-Brady.The-Brady-Bunch

Marcia, Marcia, Marcia

Edited August 10, 2022 by paigow

[Chaos Theory]

It’s also important to note considering how important The Sandpiper Case is to the entire story that it was Jimmy’s baby.   He was the one who discovered a chain of assisted living facilities were overcharging its residents.   He brought it to Chuck in part to get his opinion on if he had a class action case but also because Jimmy was actually trying to involve Chuck in the world again.     When Chuck convinces Jimmy to take the case to HHM he expects to be hired by the firm but he isn’t   He is deeply hurt when he finds out it is Chuck who didn’t want him hired by HHM but then much to Chuck’s horror is hired by the law firm that HHM partners with when the case gets to big for them to work alone.     Chuck is ultimately right about Jimmy and his inability to color inside the lines but Chuck is so cold and cruel to his brother that it is hard for me to feel sorry for him.

again this this important because both Jimmy and Kim got  screwed over by HHM during the Sandpiper case for petty reasons.  Did it mean Chuck and Howard deserved what they got?  No.  Chuck was mentally ill but a lot of his illness came from his hatred of Jimmy.  And Howard was a smiling yes man who was handed everything but he didn’t deserve to be painted as an addict by Jimmy and Kim out of spite.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Chaos Theory

[Gemma Violet]

According to Talking Saul, Rhea did only two takes for the bus scene.  They ended up using the second take but could have easily used the first, according to Gilligan. 

I agree, Emmy worthy.  

[Alexander Pope]

9 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Wasn’t Paul changed to Saul in the  Biblical conversion on the road to Damascus?  Hmmm…but since he’s Gene now that comparison might not be applicable.  Lol 

It was the other way around--Saul (a Jew) converted to Paul and Christianity.  It would make sense that Jimmy chose the unredeemed name.

[PeterPirate]

I still think they are going to have to tie Kim to Lalo before Howard's murder to make any serious charges stick.  Even when the SHTF she will be looked on with sympathy, particularly since she left Jimmy and the legal profession right after Howard's murder.  That goes away if they can paint her as una amiga de cartel, especially since Kim did not disclose her prior association with Lalo in her affidavit.

Maybe they won't have a tape of Kim and Lalo's discussion in lockup, but at least they will have a record of her visit.  

Edited August 10, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Bannon]

14 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

I still think they are going to have to tie Kim to Lalo before Howard's murder to make any serious charges stick.  Even when the SHTF she will be looked on with sympathy, particularly since she left Jimmy and the legal profession right after Howard's murder.  That goes away if they can paint her as una amiga de cartel, especially since Kim did not disclose her prior association with Lalo in her affidavit.

Maybe they won't have a tape of Kim and Lalo's discussion in lockup, but at least they will have a record of her visit.  

Again, she's flat out admitted to a federal criminal conspiracy charge, by the drugging of Howard to corrupt the Sandpiper settlement. There is no such thing as a minor federal criminal conspiracy conviction. If a federal prosecutor wants to tune her up, she's looking at very serious time.

[scenario]

33 minutes ago, Bannon said:

For illumination

If he gets two years, he will actually have to serve around 18 months total. There is no parole in the Federal system. Admitting to a criminal conspiracy in federal court is a really big deal.

https://www.izlegal.com/blog/federal-sentencing-guidelines-for-conspiracy-charge.cfm

So Kim comes to court. She's the ex-wife of a well known criminal whose accused of horrible crimes. She gets a psychological evaluation which says she has a serious case of PTSD and is feels very guilty about what happened.

When they interview Howards friends and wife at the time, they say that he told them that Jimmy was trying to get him but he never mentioned Kim at all. 

It seems to me that the judge is likely to put  most or all the blame on Jimmy and if Jimmy is still alive he might very well accept all the blame. Kim did what she did because she was pressured into doing it by an evil man. In the state Kim is in now, she's likely to just passively go along with everything. 

I can see a judge giving her the minimum sentence and put 90% of the blame on Saul. She's just another one of his victims. 

[Bannon]

1 minute ago, scenario said:

So Kim comes to court. She's the ex-wife of a well known criminal whose accused of horrible crimes. She gets a psychological evaluation which says she has a serious case of PTSD and is feels very guilty about what happened.

When they interview Howards friends and wife at the time, they say that he told them that Jimmy was trying to get him but he never mentioned Kim at all. 

It seems to me that the judge is likely to put  most or all the blame on Jimmy and if Jimmy is still alive he might very well accept all the blame. Kim did what she did because she was pressured into doing it by an evil man. In the state Kim is in now, she's likely to just passively go along with everything. 

I can see a judge giving her the minimum sentence and put 90% of the blame on Saul. She's just another one of his victims. 

She's already admitted to being an enthusiastic participant. Yes, many things are possible, but lawyers who are convicted of engaging in criminal conspiracies, especially in Federal Court, have a pretty good chance of receiving significantly more than soft treatment, especially if one of the targets of the criminal conspiracy gets shot in the head when he goes to your home to complain about being targeted, even if the shot is fired not by you, but by the drug kingpin you have had previous dealings with.

[paigow]

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

especially if one of the targets of the criminal conspiracy gets shot in the head when he goes to your home to complain about being targeted, even if the shot is fired not by you, but by the drug kingpin you have had previous dealings with.

But there was no criminal conspiracy to MURDER Howard. Thus, anything Lalo did at the house was not pre-meditated / arranged. It was legitimately an  unforeseeable event.

[scenario]

7 minutes ago, Bannon said:

She's already admitted to being an enthusiastic participant. Yes, many things are possible, but lawyers who are convicted of engaging in criminal conspiracies, especially in Federal Court, have a pretty good chance of receiving significantly more than soft treatment, especially if one of the targets of the criminal conspiracy gets shot in the head when he goes to your home to complain about being targeted, even if the shot is fired not by you, but by the drug kingpin you have had previous dealings with.

The part of the confession on the screen is a clinical description of what happened. "Shortly after Salamanca's departure, Jimmy and I began a long term concerted effort..."  I didn't read anything or see anything in Kim's behavior that said she was an enthusiastic participant. Judging strictly on what the affidavit said, she appeared to be a willing participant but it doesn't say that she was the one who instigated it. The bare facts support anything from she's the mastermind to she's going along with Jimmy because she was terrified of him or anything in between. 

She could be sentenced from anything from a year or two to thirty years depending on what she's charged with, how much the prosecuting attorney wants her and if the prosecutor only wants to use her to get Jimmy to cooperate, if he's still alive. 

There's no automatic long sentence involved. The judge does have some discretion within the guidelines of the particular thing she's charged for. 

[Bannon]

2 minutes ago, scenario said:

The part of the confession on the screen is a clinical description of what happened. "Shortly after Salamanca's departure, Jimmy and I began a long term concerted effort..."  I didn't read anything or see anything in Kim's behavior that said she was an enthusiastic participant. Judging strictly on what the affidavit said, she appeared to be a willing participant but it doesn't say that she was the one who instigated it. The bare facts support anything from she's the mastermind to she's going along with Jimmy because she was terrified of him or anything in between. 

She could be sentenced from anything from a year or two to thirty years depending on what she's charged with, how much the prosecuting attorney wants her and if the prosecutor only wants to use her to get Jimmy to cooperate, if he's still alive. 

There's no automatic long sentence involved. The judge does have some discretion within the guidelines of the particular thing she's charged for. 

As I said, an accomplished lawyer engaged in a criminal conspiracy to defraud a Federal Court, drug a participating lawyer, and also defraud a large number of plaintiffs and defendants, and at least 3 law firms, would be a remarkable recipient of soft treatment. Who knows? Anything's possible.

18 minutes ago, paigow said:

But there was no criminal conspiracy to MURDER Howard. Thus, anything Lalo did at the house was not pre-meditated / arranged. It was legitimately an  unforeseeable event.

Except concealing Lalo's true identity from the court. That's a criminal conspiracy as well.

[PeterPirate]

3 hours ago, peeayebee said:

I just watched the two videos PeterPirate posted (plus pickled peppers). 

If I had a dime for every time someone asked me for pickled peppers, I could buy a titanium leg to replace the old wooden peg.  

[scenario]

14 minutes ago, Bannon said:

As I said, an accomplished lawyer engaged in a criminal conspiracy to defraud a Federal Court, drug a participating lawyer, and also defraud a large number of plaintiffs and defendants, and at least 3 law firms, would be a remarkable recipient of soft treatment. Who knows? Anything's possible.

Except concealing Lalo's true identity from the court. That's a criminal conspiracy as well.

If Jimmy's still alive, they might consider him a bigger target and give Kim a lessor sentence to go after him. I'm not really disagreeing with you. I can easily see a situation where they throw the book at her and she goes to prison for a long, long time.

I can also see a situation where they put all of the blame on Saul and decide not to go after her because they believe they have a weak case against her because everyone will assume that it's Saul's fault. 

Kim could get anything from nothing if they decide not to prosecute to 30 years if they want to make an example of her and anything in between. 

[SimplexFish]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

Neither Mike or Lalo are alive to contradict Kim. 

With the way Mike died I wonder if Kim and Saul actually know he is indeed dead? 

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, scenario said:

If Jimmy's still alive, they might consider him a bigger target and give Kim a lessor sentence to go after him. I'm not really disagreeing with you. I can easily see a situation where they throw the book at her and she goes to prison for a long, long time.

I know this is just hypothetical, but why would they need to go easy on her to go after him? He's got so many other crimes he's already facing a ton of jailtime. It's not like they'd need Kim to get him. It seems like Kim would have to really start lying or at least spinning aggressively to push blame on Jimmy, and she'd feel guilty about that because she'd know it's not true.

[SimplexFish]

2 hours ago, scenario said:

A black guy sells a small amount of drugs, 10 years in prison. An attractive white woman does white collar crime destroying people's lives, 3 to 5, no actual time in prison. 

Year right...times have changed,

Edited August 11, 2022 by SimplexFish

[scenario]

3 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I know this is just hypothetical, but why would they need to go easy on her to go after him? He's got so many other crimes he's already facing a ton of jailtime. It's not like they'd need Kim to get him. It seems like Kim would have to really start lying or at least spinning aggressively to push blame on Jimmy, and she'd feel guilty about that because she'd know it's not true.

They wouldn't have to. It would be another way to pressure him. "Tell us everything or we'll throw the book at Kim." The cartel is dead but he had a lot of clients. He might know something they want to know or think he does. 

They may not really care about her at all because they assume its Saul's fault. Or they may care a lot. We have no way of knowing yet. 

[SimplexFish]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

She's already admitted to being an enthusiastic participant. Yes, many things are possible, but lawyers who are convicted of engaging in criminal conspiracies, especially in Federal Court, have a pretty good chance of receiving significantly more than soft treatment, especially if one of the targets of the criminal conspiracy gets shot in the head when he goes to your home to complain about being targeted, even if the shot is fired not by you, but by the drug kingpin you have had previous dealings with.

Exactly and if Saul isnt in custody there is no reason they would go easy on Kim and certainly not call her a victim of his.

Edited August 11, 2022 by SimplexFish