S06.E12: Waterworks

[Cinnabon]

18 minutes ago, SimplexFish said:

Year right...times have changed,

I wish.

[Alexander Pope]

2 hours ago, Alexander Pope said:

It was the other way around--Saul (a Jew) converted to Paul and Christianity.  It would make sense that Jimmy chose the unredeemed name.

I should add that I just remembered Jimmy's rationale for the name: "S's all good man!"  I wonder if it matters that to my ear Saul Goodman is a Jewish name.

[scenario]

21 minutes ago, SimplexFish said:

Exactly and if Saul isnt in custody there is no reason they would go easy on Kim and certainly not call her a victim of his.

That's why it could go any way. They could set an example of her or she could get little or nothing if they decided that the chance of conviction was too low. We know what happened. What someone in the show would see was a very timid and scared woman coming in to confess her crimes. Kim is very different in this episode. She doesn't look like a mastermind. 

1 minute ago, Alexander Pope said:

I should add that I just remembered Jimmy's rationale for the name: "S's all good man!"  I wonder if it matters that to my ear Saul Goodman is a Jewish name.

I'm pretty sure I remember Jesse saying in BB that you should hire a Jewish lawyer. I'm sure that's part of the reason he took the name. 

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, scenario said:

That's why it could go any way. They could set an example of her or she could get little or nothing if they decided that the chance of conviction was too low. We know what happened. What someone in the show would see was a very timid and scared woman coming in to confess her crimes. Kim is very different in this episode. She doesn't look like a mastermind. 

The chance of conviction is approaching 100%. She's admitted to the crime, as an accomplished lawyer, in a signed afadavit. There are hundreds of victims.

Edited August 11, 2022 by Bannon

[sistermagpie]

12 minutes ago, Alexander Pope said:

I should add that I just remembered Jimmy's rationale for the name: "S's all good man!"  I wonder if it matters that to my ear Saul Goodman is a Jewish name.

Didn't Saul himself suggest that was an advantage when he revealed his real name to Walt? Maybe I'm confusing it with something Archie Bunker would think...

[SimplexFish]

With one episode left is there time to have a Kim arrest/trial and also conclude what becomes of Saul?  Could Kim be so distraught about what she has done and not wanting a trial and fearing jail time that she commits suicide?  The writers do promise something big in the finale...

[Starchild]

7 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Didn't Saul himself suggest that was an advantage when he revealed his real name to Walt? Maybe I'm confusing it with something Archie Bunker would think...

He did, something about his clients wanting "a member of the tribe."

[Bannon]

I'm fine with an ending that doesn't explicitly detail Kim's fate. I do think J/S/G should learn that Kim has admitted to everything; his reaction to that would interest me.

[paigow]

9 minutes ago, SimplexFish said:

With one episode left is there time to have a Kim arrest/trial and also conclude what becomes of Saul?  

El Camino Strikes Back

[peeayebee]

2 hours ago, Gemma Violet said:

According to Talking Saul, Rhea did only two takes for the bus scene.  They ended up using the second take but could have easily used the first, according to Gilligan. 

I wish there was a way to watch Talking Saul online... Yet I think I must have watched one ep online several weeks back. How? Where?

1 hour ago, SimplexFish said:

With the way Mike died I wonder if Kim and Saul actually know he is indeed dead? 

Good question! Did we see Walt tell someone (Saul?) about Mike dying? (not necessarily HOW he died.)

[sistermagpie]

Forgot to mention, I do like how Saul still isn't confident enough to say that Lalo is actually dead. It makes the BB scene even better knowing he'll never truly believe it. Fool him once...

Edited August 11, 2022 by sistermagpie

[SimplexFish]

1 hour ago, peeayebee said:

I wish there was a way to watch Talking Saul online... Yet I think I must have watched one ep online several weeks back. How? Where?

Maybe YouTube?

Edited August 11, 2022 by SimplexFish

[PeterPirate]

1 hour ago, Starchild said:

He did, something about his clients wanting "a member of the tribe."

I could be wrong, but I don't recall Jimmy telling Kim or anyone else in BCS about choosing "Saul Goodman" because of its ethnic connotations.  

Edited August 11, 2022 by PeterPirate

[scenario]

11 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

I could be wrong, but I don't recall Jimmy telling Kim or anyone else in BCS about choosing "Saul Goodman" because of its ethnic connotations.  

In the scene where they were throwing him out of the country club he did yell that he was being thrown out because he is Jewish. So Saul knows the name sounds Jewish at least. 

IMO, there's no way that Jimmy/Saul isn't taking advantage of the stereotype that Jewish lawyers are generally good lawyers. 

[sistermagpie]

20 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

I could be wrong, but I don't recall Jimmy telling Kim or anyone else in BCS about choosing "Saul Goodman" because of its ethnic connotations.  

I think the idea is that he didn't choose it to sound Jewish, but he's aware that it sounds Jewish and enjoys the advantage when he can.

[PeterPirate]

4 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I think the idea is that he didn't choose it to sound Jewish, but he's aware that it sounds Jewish and enjoys the advantage when he can.

That's fine, but it's worth noting that Jimmy first used "Saul Goodman" when his law license was suspended and he was selling cell phones.  I don't remember him choosing that name because it increased sales.  

[Starchild]

The "member of the tribe" line was in BB.

About a minute into this

[sistermagpie]

9 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

That's fine, but it's worth noting that Jimmy first used "Saul Goodman" when his law license was suspended and he was selling cell phones.  I don't remember him choosing that name because it increased sales.  

Right, nobody's saying he chose the name for that reason. He chose it because of the pun and he liked the sound of it. 

[PeterPirate]

3 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Right, nobody's saying he chose the name for that reason. He chose it because of the pun and he liked the sound of it. 

In BB Saul says he uses "Saul Goodman" because his "homeboy" clients like a Jewish attorney.

Just saying, it's a retcon.  It's not a perfect fit.  

[sistermagpie]

10 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

In BB Saul says he uses "Saul Goodman" because his "homeboy" clients like a Jewish attorney.

Just saying, it's a retcon.  It's not a perfect fit.  

Ah, I see what you mean. But he's talking to Walt there, isn't he? No reason to think he has to be telling the truth. That reason fits the Saul Goodman persona, after all. The real story's a little complicated.

Edited August 11, 2022 by sistermagpie

[Dev F]

11 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

In BB Saul says he uses "Saul Goodman" because his "homeboy" clients like a Jewish attorney.

Just saying, it's a retcon.  It's not a perfect fit.  

Eh, I don't think the two lines of reasoning are mutually exclusive. The way he explained it to Kim was "The skells who've been buying my phones . . . sure as shooting, sooner or later, every last one of them is gonna find themselves in the back of a squad car. How do I get them to call Jimmy McGill? I don't! I stay Saul Goodman. They call the guy they already know." The fact that they'd also be drawn to a Jewish lawyer could've been part of why it suddenly hit him that "this is the way. Kim, it's gonna work"—but he wouldn't have told Kim that part, because it would've made him sound sleazy and a little racist just when he was earnestly trying to convince her of his clear-headed judgment.

Edited August 11, 2022 by Dev F

[Simon Boccanegra]

Rhea Seehorn's acting was good in the shuttle breakdown scene, but I think what makes it stand out to us so much is (1) we've never seen Kim break down in this way and (2) we're projecting onto Seehorn's expressions everything we know from years of story leading up. We feel we're in Kim's head.

It is definitely the kind of scene that wins nominations and awards, but chances are, if Seehorn were asked, she might not feel that was even the most difficult scene she's had to play this season. I'm not surprised to hear she nailed it on the first take, and the second one was just because VG always likes to have another take.  

It's an illustration of how writing and acting work in concert in the best circumstances. I remember the director David Lowery talking about a scene in his film A Ghost Story that was visually and emotionally similar to Kim's shuttle scene. Rooney Mara is shown driving away from a house in which her character had a lot of history (good and bad); now she's moving on with her life. The camera stays on Mara's face for a long time, no words, just the musical score. Lowery didn't want Mara to try too hard to indicate everything going on in the character's mind, because the audience will do a lot of the work. They had been on that journey with her.

[PeterPirate]

9 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Ah, I see what you mean. But he's talking to Walt there, isn't he? No reason to think he has to be telling the truth. That reason fits the Saul Goodman persona, after all.

Sure, but that means when watching the first meeting between Saul and Walt, one now has to sift the true statements from the false statements.  That changes the flavor of the scene.  

I'm not saying this is a big deal.  The human mind just picks up on little things, like how one person noticed "AE35" was a reference from 2001 A Space Odyssey. 

[Eulipian 5k]

4 hours ago, Alexander Pope said:

  I wonder if it matters that to my ear Saul Goodman is a Jewish name

In his crass way, Saul remarked to Walt that he chose Goodman because “some people want ‘one of the tribe’ as their lawyer.”

Ewwps!

Edited August 11, 2022 by Eulipian 5k
Just read every body’s answers

[Ottis]

13 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

But tbf, it's not like they would have written more stuff in the story instead. Those things were what were needed to get Gene to where he was in this ep. The process of the con is what sucks Jimmy back in.

Agree, and what I noted was they can show the process of the con with a single scene with the security guard and Jimmy timing how long it took before he checked the monitors, and not 5 scenes plus Jimmy learning about college football, etc. 

[Conan Troutman]

On 8/9/2022 at 2:21 PM, Chaos Theory said:

Even if Kim never goes to jail this confession clears Howard of being a drug addict.   Even if his body is never found which Kim says is probable since the only people who know where he is buried are dead. 

But won't the DEA find Howard's body? IIRC at some point in BB Walt destroyed all of the evidence inside Gus' meth lab, but of course the two corpses buried under ground should've (or at the very least plausibly could have) been found.

Of course there was no mention of this in BB due to BCS being a spin off, but it could come up at the finale. The DEA should be able to identify Lalo and -  with the new intel Kim just provided - the John Doe as Howard

.

3 minutes ago, Conan Troutman said:

Edited August 11, 2022 by Conan Troutman

[bad things are bad]

The corpses are under concrete,  aren't they? Would that get busted up or would they just fill in the hole where the meth lab had been?

[PeterPirate]

Before this episode aired I considered the discovery of Howard's body to be unrealistically coincidental.  It should have happened shortly after Gus' death, or not at all.  

But since Kim included "Fring" in her affidavit, the police or DEA might search the remnants of the superlab.  

Heaven knows, Howard deserves a decent burial and Cheryl deserves real closure. 

Edited August 11, 2022 by PeterPirate

[nodorothyparker]

4 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

But since Kim included "Fring" in her affidavit, the police or DEA might search the remnants of the superlab. 

I think I missed that. How would Kim even know Gus's name? All she knew was that she was sent to kill a black guy at a specific address who looked like a housecat librarian. 

[ShadowFacts]

5 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Before this episode aired I considered the discovery of Howard's body to be unrealistically coincidental.  

But since Kim included "Fring" in her affidavit, the police or DEA might search the remnants of the superlab.  

Heaven knows, Howard deserves a decent burial and Cheryl deserves real closure. 

Cheryl deserves to be able to close out his estate as well, and Howard deserves to be separated from his killer.

1 minute ago, nodorothyparker said:

I think I missed that. How would Kim even know Gus's name? All she knew was that she was sent to kill a black guy at a specific address who looked like a housecat librarian. 

She may not have known his name, but the address would lead to ownership. Cheryl may press law enforcement. Is she also a lawyer? At the memorial Clifford said she was taking leave from her practice, but it could be another profession.

[PeterPirate]

45 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

I think I missed that. How would Kim even know Gus's name? All she knew was that she was sent to kill a black guy at a specific address who looked like a housecat librarian. 

Kim included "Gustavo Fring" in her affidavit.  I suppose it would be possible for her to look up who lived at that address.  Or maybe she figured it out from news stories.  

For that matter, we never learn how or when Saul learned Gus' name in BB.  He just referred to "Fring" during a conversation with Walt. 

38 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Is she also a lawyer? At the memorial Clifford said she was taking leave from her practice, but it could be another profession.

Cheryl asked Kim if she was a lawyer, and also asked Kim for her legal opinion.  I doubt Cheryl was a lawyer herself.  I'm guessing a doctor.

I surely would like to see them post the entire affidavit online.  What we get to see starts at Paragraph 8 with "After Salamanca's departure....".  How much tea did Kim spill?  

Edited August 11, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Starchild]

45 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

For that matter, we never learn how or when Saul learned Gus' name in BB.  He just referred to "Fring" during a conversation with Walt. 

We probably never will know the exact details of how Saul learned about Gus, or exactly how much he knew. BCS's previous episode had that scene between Saul and Mike where they referred to "he who must not be named" so we can infer that Saul tried poking that bear at some point and Mike told him to keep Fring's name "out your fuckin' mouth." I expect that's the last we'll hear of it.

[peeayebee]

8 hours ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

It is definitely the kind of scene that wins nominations and awards, but chances are, if Seehorn were asked, she might not feel that was even the most difficult scene she's had to play this season.

It's unfortunate that Emmy and Oscar voters go for the flashy performances. The big crying scene, the breakdown, multiple personalities, etc. Subtle performances are just as challenging but often overlooked.

1 hour ago, bad things are bad said:

The corpses are under concrete,  aren't they? Would that get busted up or would they just fill in the hole where the meth lab had been?

I really hope Howard and Lalo's bodies aren't discovered. It's ok not to resolve every single plot point. Everything doesn't need to be wrapped up. I really like the idea of these bodies never being found, linked together in this poetic way. 

57 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Or maybe she figured it out from news stories.  

This makes the most sense to me and is the simplest explanation. After everything went down, certainly there'd be detailed stories in the newspapers and online with the names of all the criminals involved. 

[Conan Troutman]

It's possible Kim doesn't remember the address and has no idea who Gus Fring is, but the cops know Saul was involved with Walt and Walt with Gus. So they could connect the dots and start digging (if they haven't done it long ago), though it's not guaranteed to happen.

[ShadowFacts]

52 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

I really hope Howard and Lalo's bodies aren't discovered. It's ok not to resolve every single plot point. Everything doesn't need to be wrapped up. I really like the idea of these bodies never being found, linked together in this poetic way.

I agree. I don't need or want to see everything tied up with a bow. On the other hand, maybe Cheryl has reappeared to do more than just be the receptacle of Kim's confession. That could also work for me. Finding Howard's body would go further in restoring his reputation than just Kim's affidavit.  (Finding him buried next to his killer would also fuel endless true crime videos and podcasts, so maybe I don't want him found . .)

[SimplexFish]

2 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Cheryl asked Kim if she was a lawyer, and also asked Kim for her legal opinion.  I doubt Cheryl was a lawyer herself.  I'm guessing a doctor.

I think she is a psychiatrist...

Edited August 11, 2022 by SimplexFish

[PeterPirate]

12 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I don't need or want to see everything tied up with a bow. 

If we don't find out what happened to Lyle, I riot.  

[Starchild]

1 hour ago, peeayebee said:

It's unfortunate that Emmy and Oscar voters go for the flashy performances. The big crying scene, the breakdown, multiple personalities, etc. Subtle performances are just as challenging but often overlooked.

At least the Oscars approach fair. Like the Tonys, even the Grammys, the entire performance is evaluated and assessed against others' entire performances.

Of the EGOTs, only the Emmys look at a small portion of the performance (one episode out of the whole season) and compare against tiny slices from other shows. It's very often apples to oranges and quite unfair.

Even if just one episode is submitted for consideration, some voters have seen the entire season and likely vote based on everything the nominee has done that season.

But many don't watch a lot of TV (or so they claim), and even if they did, no one has time anymore to watch more than a small portion of the really good stuff that's out there, so they truly only have those single episodes to judge on.

I'm not a fan of single episodes to judge season-long performances in television.

[Alexander Pope]

9 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

In his crass way, Saul remarked to Walt that he chose Goodman because “some people want ‘one of the tribe’ as their lawyer.”

Ewwps!

As a member of the tribe myself, I am totally fine with that!

[Penman61]

3 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

I surely would like to see them post the entire affidavit online.  What we get to see starts at Paragraph 8 with "After Salamanca's departure....".  How much tea did Kim spill?  

The closest I've seen to the entire affidavit is VividKiwi's slow-pans back and forth, at ~13:00, ("Hidden Detail #21"), from this video. Very helpful.

[SunnyBeBe]

1 hour ago, Penman61 said:

The closest I've seen to the entire affidavit is VividKiwi's slow-pans back and forth, at ~13:00, ("Hidden Detail #21"), from this video. Very helpful.

Omg!  Great video…..taking my comment to spoilers.  

[Chaos Theory]

I am not one to complain about the ages of actors when playing rolls.   Hollywood happens and sometimes a 45 year old woman is going to be grandma to a 40 year old man.  It’s unfair but it’s true.    I am just kinda curious what the series would have looked like if Better Call Saul had come before Breaking Bad and ALL the actors looked closer to the age they were supposed to be.     I mean Saul and Kim are supposed to be in their 30s right?      Both Bob and Rhea are in their 50s.  So even if the ages weren’t perfect.  I think it would have been fun if the shows were reversed.  But then the actors on Breaking Bad wouldn’t fit…..so that doesn’t work.  

And for the record I wouldnt change the actors on either show.  

Edited August 11, 2022 by Chaos Theory

[Eulipian 5k]

2 hours ago, Alexander Pope said:

As a member of the tribe myself, I am totally fine with that!

Do Kevin Wachtell and the ABQ Country Club know that?

[Penman61]

8 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

I am not one to complain about the ages of actors when playing rolls.   Hollywood happens and sometimes a 45 year old woman is going to be grandma to a 40 year old man.  It’s unfair but it’s true.    I am just kinda curious what the series would have looked like if Better Call Saul had come before Breaking Bad and ALL the actors looked had a closer resemblance to the age they were supposed to be.     I mean Saul and Kim are supposed to be in their 30s right?      Both Bob and Rhea are in their 50s.  So even if the ages weren’t perfect.  I think it would have been fun if the shows were reversed.  But then the actors on Breaking Bad wouldn’t fit…..so that doesn’t work.  

And for the record I would t change the actors on either show.  

This will sound like an evasion of your question, but I don't think you get the same Better Call Saul and Breaking Bad if you reverse their created chronological order.

Like no way is The Godfather Part II even possible without the financial and critical success of The Godfather, even though the former contains prequel scenes. (Obviously the actor aging issue isn't at all the same as BB/BCS.)

Better Call Saul was possible only after Breaking Bad had become the huge success that it was. That meant not only that Gould & Gilligan had the financial support they wanted to make BCS, but that they had greater creative freedom. The actors' aging into scenes in their characters' pasts is, for me, a minor price to pay and a fun trivial thing to grouse about compared to what that creative freedom has given us. YMMV, of course.

Edited August 11, 2022 by Penman61

[Cinnabon]

2 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Do Kevin Wachtell and the ABQ Country Club know that?

Fuck all of them!

[Starchild]

It seems that the better quality a property is, the more we discerning viewers are willing to forgive/overlook. Their obvious care for it, and their clear respect for us, earns them our trust and indulgence.

I can't think of another showrunner I've trusted more than these guys. My willingness to accept mostly unavoidable inconsistencies is directly proportional to the love they demonstrate for the show(s), their respect for the audience, and their attention to detail.

Edited August 11, 2022 by Starchild

[Joimiaroxeu]

Kim as a Stepford wife girlfriend. Yikes.

Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep...Nope.

That was something the way Florida Kim always avoided expressing her opinion. She either figured out a way to agree with whatever the person said or she said nothing. It was hard to watch her keep herself restrained like that.

Victor St. Clair. Sounds like a character from a soap opera or a romance novel. At what point had Jimmy and Kim agreed to use that as his codename? (Because she seemed to know it was going to be him on the phone.)

Ditto comments upthread, watching Kim seething and then breaking down in tears on that bus ride back to the airport was stunning. Brava, Rhea Seehorn.

[gail56]

I can't get over the sound of Kim's voice at the beginning of the episode, not Kim like at all and sounded like a little girl. Also was surprised at the dark hair and frumpy clothes. She even walked around differently. Loved her in the phone call with Gene.

Marion grabbing the Life Alert and saying Saul Goodman was threatening her was so well done. Can't wait to see what next week brings.

Also want to say that Dukes should pay BCS  because I am sure there are going to be a lot of new customers after this episode. I had no idea this brand even existed. Didn't even know my grocery store had it. Went shopping today and they did and I bought some!

[Eulipian 5k]

3 hours ago, Starchild said:

I'm not a fan of single episodes to judge season-long performances in television.

That's the nature of the medium. Can you imagine getting screener DVD's for a whole season of each show to review? They'll end up being unseen and pirated. These awards were never considered the same. TV gained stature, and big stars slumming, once miniseries became a thing.

[Chaos Theory]

8 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

The actors' aging into scenes in their characters' pasts is, for me, a minor price to pay and a fun trivial thing to grouse about compared to what that creative freedom has given us. YMMV, of course.

I agree completely.  In all honesty I didnt even really notice except the occasional “how old are Kim and Jimmy supposed to be again” when the discussion turned on Twitter and the like to them having kids and people commented that they were too old but in truth timeline wise they are in their 30s which is when the majority of middle class whites start having kids.     Honestly the first time I REALLY noticed was ironically when Jesse Pinkman showed up because he is supposed to be in his early 20s and probably is the one thing that took me out of the show for a split second.  But only a second