S01.E01: Sleep Of The Just

[Meredith Quill]

Quote

While searching for an escaped nightmare in the waking world, Morpheus falls prey to Roderick Burgess, an occultist looking to summon and imprison Death.

[AnimeMania]

I guess I can say I am somewhat disappointed in the first episode, it was understandable, but it didn't really cover the things that I was most interested in. I wanted to know more about the things The Sandman brought with him into the Waking World, there was some mumbo jumbo about immortality and wealth, but I would have liked a more concrete answer. Sure Sir Roderick seemed to stay healthy and vital all the time the The Sandman's artifacts were in his possession, but his son Alex seemed to continue to age at a relatively normal rate although Alex seemed to have been alive for more than a hundred years. I would have liked to have seen Sir Roderick's situation improve over time as a result of The Sandman's trinkets. Why didn't Sir Roderick have more robed followers and larger crowds clamouring to party with him, only ending when Ethel steals The Sandman's treasures. I feel there was too much focus on Sir Roderick's household when I was more interested in what was going on in the outside world with the "Sleeping Sickness" and the rogue nightmare, Corinthian, unleashing unchecked havoc for a century. This is where I would have wanted the story to focus on. If I could change anything, I would have made Alex stay the same age the entire time The Sandman's relics remained in their safe. This would have fueled Alex's hatred of his father and The Sandman, by perpetually taking the coats of guests and cleaning up the aftermath of parties you could never attend, because you are seen as too young. Normal aging could have resumed for Alex after Ethel steals The Sandman's doodads, this might have also been used to explain how Alex lived well past 100 years old, without greatly altering the story. The story seemed almost like filler where The Sandman went to the Waking World, got trapped for 100 years and managed to escape, they could have spent way more time world building (Waking or Dream World) and I would have enjoyed it more.

[Bellatrix]

I was underwhelmed as well.

I thought it was really dark, and not in a good way. Bleak and angsty. Of course that could be down to the source material, the comics which I have not read, but it wasn't enticing to me. Just ... sad.

I started with the feeling of pity for Alex, but it changed to revulsion for his patheticness. Not so much for continuing to keep The Sandman/Lord Morpheus imprisoned (that turned out to be a sensible decision when it came his own well-being, if staggeringly and breath-takingly cruel), but for killing the magpie.

I mean, why try to make friends with the imprisoned creature, and then kill his friend? I didn't like Alex.

[thuganomics85]

Me:  "Sweet, it's Charles Dance!  Hey, maybe he'll actually be a nice.... nope, he's a dickbag father again."  Certainly has the market cornered for that particular character type!  Looks like it was also a one and done role for him as well, unless Rodrick will appear again via flashbacks or maybe a dream of some kind.

Haven't read the source material, so without that knowledge, I thought it was decent first episode it that it made me curious to check out the rest of the season, but I would have liked to have seen more of the Dream World and so forth, before The Sandman got sent to the Waking World and was trapped there for 100 years.  I get the general idea of it, but this episode probably could have told the same story in half of the time and it wouldn't have changed anything.  Just a lot of naked Sandman chilling in a dome, Alex being a wishy-washy wimp (that I think I was suppose to feel bad for?  Kind of?), and Charles Dance doing his thing like the pro he his.  But now that all of that is done, I'm curious to see how the rest of this plays out.

The actor playing The Sandman feels like someone took Benedict Cumberbatch's voice and stuffed it inside of Robert Pattinson's body.  Whatever works, I guess.

I like Boyd Holbrook, but he doesn't really give off "big baddie" energy, if that's what his character is suppose to be.  Of course, I wouldn't be surprised if there is an even bigger threat to deal with later.

[Morrigan2575]

I know minimal aspects of the source material. I enjoyed it, liked the casting for Dream. As weird as it sounds his deep voice makes it more believable that he's a God like being.

They setup a lot of characters and questions, which I assume will get explained as the season goes on.

[Chicago Redshirt]

15 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

I guess I can say I am somewhat disappointed in the first episode, it was understandable, but it didn't really cover the things that I was most interested in. I wanted to know more about the things The Sandman brought with him into the Waking World, there was some mumbo jumbo about immortality and wealth, but I would have liked a more concrete answer. Sure Sir Roderick seemed to stay healthy and vital all the time the The Sandman's artifacts were in his possession, but his son Alex seemed to continue to age at a relatively normal rate although Alex seemed to have been alive for more than a hundred years. I would have liked to have seen Sir Roderick's situation improve over time as a result of The Sandman's trinkets. Why didn't Sir Roderick have more robed followers and larger crowds clamouring to party with him, only ending when Ethel steals The Sandman's treasures. I feel there was too much focus on Sir Roderick's household when I was more interested in what was going on in the outside world with the "Sleeping Sickness" and the rogue nightmare, Corinthian, unleashing unchecked havoc for a century. This is where I would have wanted the story to focus on. If I could change anything, I would have made Alex stay the same age the entire time The Sandman's relics remained in their safe. This would have fueled Alex's hatred of his father and The Sandman, by perpetually taking the coats of guests and cleaning up the aftermath of parties you could never attend, because you are seen as too young. Normal aging could have resumed for Alex after Ethel steals The Sandman's doodads, this might have also been used to explain how Alex lived well past 100 years old, without greatly altering the story. The story seemed almost like filler where The Sandman went to the Waking World, got trapped for 100 years and managed to escape, they could have spent way more time world building (Waking or Dream World) and I would have enjoyed it more.

It's doubtful that either Roderick or Alex got longer life because of Morpheus's stuff. Rather, they knew some level of magic. Neither father nor son got a single word out of Morpheus, let alone any direct benefit from using his stuff.

I actually like that we focused on what happened with the Burgess household and Morpheus rather than spending much time on those suffering from Sleeping Sickness. Different strokes for different folks.

They probably should have fiddled with the years a little more.. Having Morpheus imprisoned in 1916 made it still feasible that Alex would be an old man against the backdrop of the original setting in the late 80s. But it means that he would have to have had an unnaturally long life when the story seems to be in 2022-ish. 

[Aulty]

14 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

The actor playing The Sandman feels like someone took Benedict Cumberbatch's voice and stuffed it inside of Robert Pattinson's body.  Whatever works, I guess.

I described him to Mr. Aulty yesterday as 'a thirst trap for the Twilight clientele'. Intentionally cast like that for sure. Sticks out like a sore emo thumb when he is not in one of the realms.

I think the show is well made, but I haven't got a clue whats going on most of the time. They didn't do a great job setting it up in the first few episodes.
I loved the opening scenes with the flying bird and the optical illusions though.

[ombre]

23 minutes ago, Aulty said:

I think the show is well made, but I haven't got a clue whats going on most of the time. They didn't do a great job setting it up in the first few episodes.

I read the comics as a kid and I'm not gonna lie, I'm not sure that I had a great sense of what was going on in this part of the story by reading them.  You're just plunked into the middle of it all and have to figure it out. In some ways, I think it makes so much lush atmosphere that it cane be hard to see the plot. I think the show has actually done a better job of that than the graphic novels. Or I have a more experienced brain. :D. A great god was imprisoned. His powers stolen from him and fritterEed away. His responsibilities went untended.  The world, we are told, descended into some level of chaos (but kept muddling through, as humans seem to do) but we only barely know that because we are tied to the tiny drama around the imprisonment, the tiny battle of wills that is the cause of the chaos but also necessarily cordoned off from it (hard to have a secret prison in the middle of everything).  

I don't remember the plots from the graphic novels at *all*. My main memories are the characters. So far, everyone is spot-on to how I would have imagined it. I think they're doing a stunning job of recreating some of the most powerful images of the novels without feeling like they're just richocheting from pose to pose. It feels quite natural, but suddenly my heart zings with a sense of *oh* *yeah* *right*. 

This episode is an introduction to a character who is not human, but exists through humanity. And we are humans and understand humans (so help us), so we meet him through human characters acting as go-betweens.  He's mostly silent, his motivations are not clear.  I'm struck by how much he felt like a very young child - endlessly sad for the unfairness of Jessamy's murder, unable to get over it and just use the fact that both he and the younger Burgess might be united by their hatred of the abusive older man, unable to get past that harm to just get out this moment.  But, of course, that's just one side of him. 

Anyway, I really don't remember much of it and am very happy to get to step into this world again. 

I'm loving the slight twists on the characters thus far. Just enough to say that, yes, this is both an old story and a new one. 

Edited August 6, 2022 by ombre

[starri]

On a more meta level, I'm really glad that Sam Kieth and Mark Dringenberg also get creator credits.  Given the comic book industry's historic problems with doing that, it's nice that they're forthright that Gaiman wasn't the only midwife that helped birth this baby.

[DavidJSnyder]

I don’t like Morpheus narrating to us. It feels too exposition-y.  But I also know the original story, so I don’t know how confused I’d be without that exposition if I was someone who didn’t.

[Bruinsfan]

I think for this character, narrating his own story is highly appropriate.

[Affogato]

https://devastatingdisasters.com/sleeping-sickness-epidemic-1915-1928/

I think when it was originally written it was meant to coincide with this. I don't know if everyone knows this.

Maybe they should have set it in the 80s, it really wouldn't have made much difference. A little less phone action is all.

[Glade]

I loved this, and The Sandman is gorgeous!  This gave me major flashbacks to 'The Crow' which was one of my favorite films as a 90's goth teen.

Edited August 7, 2022 by Glade

[millennium]

Off to an intriguing start.   Haven't read the original so I am not burdened by expectations.   My only complaint is the lack of attention to the Magus character.   He is introduced as an Aleister Crowley type, is surrounded by robed acolytes who chant "Here in the darkness" but other than trapping Morpheus the Magus performed not a single bit of magic.   Not even a card trick.  His mistress gets pregnant.  Does he snuff out the fetus' life with a spell?  Does he slip her some rare, undetectable poison?   No.   He calls a doctor!   And when she rips him off, does he go to his crystal ball to discover her whereabouts?   Again no.   He dispatches his flunkies to find her (apparently unsuccessfully).   This guy can't even shoot a bird.   Based on most of what we saw, the Magus was a fraud duping the public.   It makes me question how he had the ability to call down and capture a god.

[Chicago Redshirt]

11 hours ago, millennium said:

Off to an intriguing start.   Haven't read the original so I am not burdened by expectations.   My only complaint is the lack of attention to the Magus character.   He is introduced as an Aleister Crowley type, is surrounded by robed acolytes who chant "Here in the darkness" but other than trapping Morpheus the Magus performed not a single bit of magic.   Not even a card trick.  His mistress gets pregnant.  Does he snuff out the fetus' life with a spell?  Does he slip her some rare, undetectable poison?   No.   He calls a doctor!   And when she rips him off, does he go to his crystal ball to discover her whereabouts?   Again no.   He dispatches his flunkies to find her (apparently unsuccessfully).   This guy can't even shoot a bird.   Based on most of what we saw, the Magus was a fraud duping the public.   It makes me question how he had the ability to call down and capture a god.

I can forgive his not being able to kill Jessamy, as she is no ordinary raven.

One of my (few and minor) disappointments in the changes the adaptation make in the source material is that they significantly weaken the power and menace of Roderick Burgess

In this version, the Corinthian basically spoon-feeds Burgess that it is Morpheus he has and how to keep Morpheus trapped, whereas in the OG version, Burgess figures it out on his own. We see Burgess in the OG version use magic a couple times. Burgess leverages the fact the British Museum curator had stolen the Grimoire to blackmail him into stealing more stuff. Eventually, the curator commits suicide while leaving a note admitting his misdeeds. But Burgess magically burns the confession note. In the OG version, Sykes and Ethel are the ones who steal the Sandman's stuff and cash, because Sykes was jealous/angry that Alex was going to inherit the group instead of him, and because they were sleeping together. Burgess tried to magically kill Sykes (although he didn't seemingly attempt to take vengeance on Ethel for whatever reason), but he had already bargained for protection and so the death spell didn't work

They also give him as a motivation resurrecting a dead kid, which makes him again softer than the motivation of wanting to have power over life and death.

And it is not really explained why Roderick wanted Ethel to have an abortion. He just does. Which I think is a poor storytelling choice.

[Zuleikha]

I've been reading good reviews, but I was very disappointed in this episode. It was beautiful, but it didn't give me any reason to care about anyone or anything. It's been ages since I read the original, so maybe that was true to this episode of the graphic novel as well. 

I felt bad for Alex and annoyed with Morpheus. The bargain Alex wanted to strike was very reasonable as was his shooting of Jessamy (she'd just tried to burn down the house!). I didn't think the show presented a good explanation for why Morpheus wouldn't take the simple bargain, especially since Morpheus had to be concerned about what was happening to dreams/the Dreaming. I also didn't understand Ethel's agenda, if she had one. I had assumed she was a conwoman when she first arrived, but then it seemed like she was sincerely with Roderick and only left him (and stole from him) because of the baby. Roderick's line about Ethel stealing more than that never seemed to pay off.

I'm going to give it at least one more episode before giving up, though.

[tennisgurl]

First of all, I am going into this as a big fan of The Sandman and of Neil Gaiman, who I actually just saw speak not very long ago. It was the comic that got me into comics, I have read pretty much everything that is a part of this universe, I have been following this adaptation since it was announced, so its going to be hard to be totally subjective when it comes to this one for me. I am going to try to not be the annoying "well in the book..." person, but its not going to be easy. Something that I do feel could be interesting to non comic readers is that the Sandman is a part of the DC universe, but only kind of. When the comic started it was more clearly a part of the DC universe, complete with appearances from classic DC characters and places like Gotham, but while those elements would pop up from time to time, the Sandman world became its own entity mostly separate from Superhero shenanigans. We are not going to have much of that super hero stuff here, mostly due to copy rights, but I am curious if they will eventually find their way into the show, especially if it becomes successful. It also started off as a horror comic before it went in some very different directions, so if your put off by the stories dark tone, its probably not going to last, although creepy things still happen frequently. 

So as a big fan, I have to say that this episode very much lived up to my expectations, I loved this. Its pretty much exactly the way the comic books started, we get dropped right into the story and the world, we have to figure things out as we go, with Dream being trapped for decades (even more here than in the original story, as its story started in the 90s, when it was published) by an Aleister Crowley wanna be as his dream realm falls apart without him. It can be understandably confusing, but that ends up being one of the stories charms, you slowly but surely come to understand the world and its characters more as the story continues. The glimpse of the dream world was exactly how it looked in the books, seeing it come to life was amazing, we even saw some quick bits of characters who will be very important later, and I already love their interpretations of Dream and Luciene. Dream looks exactly like he did in the comics, and more importantly Tom Sturridge nails his persona. He's more of a concept than a god, although its probably easier to describe him as a god, so he comes off as strange and distant, which I think he is doing really well so far. His deep voice is a great call for the character, its a nice contrast with his pale Robert Smith sort of look that really sells him as a being of immense power. 

I am loving this so far, crossing my fingers that it keeps it up! Neil Gaiman stories can be hard to adapt at times because they tend to be more heavy on mood and concepts than plot, and while Sandman certainly has a very distinct arc, its also a story about stories, so I am curious as to how much time they will spend on the main plot and how much time they will spend on the side stories that don't advance the plot much, but are important to the stories greater themes. 

Edited August 8, 2022 by tennisgurl

[magdalene]

I am not familiar with the source material and watched the first episode mostly confused. I didn't actually like any of the characters but felt some sympathy for Charles Dance's living son - until he killed the crow (no way was that a raven). After that I was all "you can die now, bye". That's the way I am with animals in fiction, someone can kill lots of people and I won't bat an eyelash but lets just say I totally get what John Wick did to the puppy killers.

[Chicago Redshirt]

18 minutes ago, magdalene said:

I am not familiar with the source material and watched the first episode mostly confused. I didn't actually like any of the characters but felt some sympathy for Charles Dance's living son - until he killed the crow (no way was that a raven). After that I was all "you can die now, bye". That's the way I am with animals in fiction, someone can kill lots of people and I won't bat an eyelash but lets just say I totally get what John Wick did to the puppy killers.

FWIW, happy to try to straighten out any confusion.

[JustHereForFood]

I wish I could like your post more than once, @tennisgurl. I have also been looking forward to this series a lot, even though I only started reading the comic 2 years ago and haven't read it all yet. I really like it so far.

1 hour ago, magdalene said:

I am not familiar with the source material and watched the first episode mostly confused. I didn't actually like any of the characters but felt some sympathy for Charles Dance's living son - until he killed the crow (no way was that a raven). After that I was all "you can die now, bye". That's the way I am with animals in fiction, someone can kill lots of people and I won't bat an eyelash but lets just say I totally get what John Wick did to the puppy killers.

It was definitely a magpie. It was half-white, FFS! No idea why they made it look like than and then call it a raven.

[jmonique]

I've never read the comic book, but binged the series and loved it.

However, I was entertained by Paul living in the same house with a CAPTIVE for eight decades or so, then FINALLY smudging the seal that kept Morpheus trapped and looking back like he did him a solid. Come on, man! Took you long enough.

[Eliza422]

14 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

I wish I could like your post more than once, @tennisgurl. I have also been looking forward to this series a lot, even though I only started reading the comic 2 years ago and haven't read it all yet. I really like it so far.

It was definitely a magpie. It was half-white, FFS! No idea why they made it look like than and then call it a raven.

maybe so it could show up on camera better? I'm just spitballing...

[chaifan]

I would have also liked to see more of the Dream World, the Sandman's job within it, and the relationship with Corinthian, before we got to 1915 and his capture.  Because I really don't understand why he had to be imprisoned.  If I understand it right, he did not have the power to bring back Burgess' son, and I don't understand how he had powers to bring about wealth and prosperity, especially while trapped in a sphere.  But upon release, why he was such a danger to the waking world?  Yeah, sure, he can put everyone to sleep, but what's his motivation for doing so?  The Sandman is eternal (I think, right?) so spending 100 years in a glass ball is like what?  A day?  A few hours, maybe even just a few minutes to him? 

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, chaifan said:

I would have also liked to see more of the Dream World, the Sandman's job within it, and the relationship with Corinthian, before we got to 1915 and his capture.  Because I really don't understand why he had to be imprisoned.  If I understand it right, he did not have the power to bring back Burgess' son, and I don't understand how he had powers to bring about wealth and prosperity, especially while trapped in a sphere.  But upon release, why he was such a danger to the waking world?  Yeah, sure, he can put everyone to sleep, but what's his motivation for doing so?  The Sandman is eternal (I think, right?) so spending 100 years in a glass ball is like what?  A day?  A few hours, maybe even just a few minutes to him? 

The Sandman didn't "have" to be imprisoned, as such. Burgess and co. originally sought to imprison Death in an attempt to bring back Burgess's son and obtain power and wealth. They were attempting a spell that nobody had previously dared, didn't know what they were doing and got kinda sorta lucky (or unlucky, depending on how one looks at things) and snared Dream (aka Morpheus aka the Sandman) by accident.

Despite Dream not having power over life and death, he has tremendous power in his own right. A being who has access to the dreams of every living person and who can shape those dreams as he wants to has nearly limitless possibilities to exploit. On the simplest level: gaining knowledge taken from other people's dreams to blackmail or manipulate them. Or promising a lifetime of great dreams or threatening a lifetime of nightmares to people. That is without factoring in the powers he has through connections with various other supernatural entities, the knowledge he possesses in his own right from having existed since the beginning of creation, or imagining him to have powers greater than he has.

Roderick Burgess sought to extort him to use all that power, real or misperceived, in his favor. 

Dream was not a threat to the Waking World in his own right. In his absence, though, things didn't function as orderly as they did with him present and attending to his duties, either in the Waking World or his realm. The main manifestation of it in the Waking World is that there were people who came down with Sleeping Sickness, either sleeping constantly, being unable to sleep, or sleepwalking. 

To paraphrase a line from the graphic novel, even though Sandman is eternal, that doesn't mean that time passes more quickly for him than it does for us. Over a century's imprisonment would still be extremely painful even if it marked a blip in his millennia-spanning existence.

[chaifan]

@Chicago Redshirt, thanks for the explanation.  The first paragraph I had picked up from Ep 1.  The second one was helpful, as I didn't understand how Dream/Sandman could promise fortune, etc.  But...  wasn't the whole point of the glass sphere and painted symbols on the floor to encase his powers?  If so, how was Burgess benefiting from him, the riches, the wealth, etc?  Or was any of that actually from/due to the Sandman? 

The timey wimey stuff is interesting...  I can't think of anything worse than to be an eternal being who experiences time the same as mere mortals.  Ugh. 

[moonshine71]

9 hours ago, chaifan said:

@Chicago Redshirt, thanks for the explanation.  The first paragraph I had picked up from Ep 1.  The second one was helpful, as I didn't understand how Dream/Sandman could promise fortune, etc.  But...  wasn't the whole point of the glass sphere and painted symbols on the floor to encase his powers?  If so, how was Burgess benefiting from him, the riches, the wealth, etc?  Or was any of that actually from/due to the Sandman? 

The timey wimey stuff is interesting...  I can't think of anything worse than to be an eternal being who experiences time the same as mere mortals.  Ugh. 

It was largely due to the possession of his bag of sand, ruby, and helmet. He had imbued them w/ some degree of his power, and just the fact Burgess had them in his possession appears to grant him some degree of success, wealth, fame, health or extended life span. I don't think it's a coincidence he dies AFTER has mistress steals them.

[Chicago Redshirt]

14 hours ago, chaifan said:

@Chicago Redshirt, thanks for the explanation.  The first paragraph I had picked up from Ep 1.  The second one was helpful, as I didn't understand how Dream/Sandman could promise fortune, etc.  But...  wasn't the whole point of the glass sphere and painted symbols on the floor to encase his powers?  If so, how was Burgess benefiting from him, the riches, the wealth, etc?  Or was any of that actually from/due to the Sandman? 

The timey wimey stuff is interesting...  I can't think of anything worse than to be an eternal being who experiences time the same as mere mortals.  Ugh. 

It's never really made clear what level of power Dream retained within the circle/glass. My understanding is that both kept him physically and metaphysically unable to escape. But could he have exercised some variations of his powers while in confinement? We'd just be guessing. Maybe Roderick thought that once he exacted a promise to serve him, he could adjust the bonds to let Dream do that. Or maybe there were ways that he thought Dream could serve him while in the trap without actively using any of his abilities.

FWIW, in the comics

there is not a clear-cut answer either. It is more explicitly described (I think) that the symbols on the floor keep him from going anywhere spiritually, and the crystal cage keeps him from going anywhere physically. There is a point where Alex Burgess (who is much more of a mini-me of his father than the show has him) complains that he has not had a good night's sleep in years and asks if that is Dream's doing. Dream does not answer, so it very well could have been. Dream's breakout is slightly different in the comics. Paul's erasing the symbol in the show seems deliberate, as opposed to the comics where he just seems careless because he doesn't really follow all the magic stuff. Dream uses the symbols being messed up to get into a guard's dream of a beach, but he takes dream sand back into the Waking World. Then he plays dead, which prompts the guard to open up the cage. And then he throws a sandstorm in their face and escapes.

Like moonshine71 said, it seems like Roderick and his group enjoyed a spillover effect from possessing Dream's stuff, which was imbued with his essence/power, even if they did not figure out as far as we were shown how to actively use any of it.

[Jynnan tonnix]

On 8/8/2022 at 7:49 PM, JustHereForFood said:

I wish I could like your post more than once, @tennisgurl. I have also been looking forward to this series a lot, even though I only started reading the comic 2 years ago and haven't read it all yet. I really like it so far.

It was definitely a magpie. It was half-white, FFS! No idea why they made it look like than and then call it a raven.

I think it was a pied crow.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pied_crow

  It definitely had a much heavier beak than a typical magpie. 

[Which Tyler]

On 8/11/2022 at 2:50 AM, Jynnan tonnix said:

I think it was a pied crow.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pied_crow

  It definitely had a much heavier beak than a typical magpie. 

Pied crow or Pied raven, I'm going with crow on the principal of size. Definitely not a (Eurasian) magpie though.
Ultimately though, the easiest answer is that she was a dream bird.

Edited August 12, 2022 by Which Tyler

[chediavolo]

On 8/8/2022 at 5:51 PM, magdalene said:

I am not familiar with the source material and watched the first episode mostly confused. I didn't actually like any of the characters but felt some sympathy for Charles Dance's living son - until he killed the crow (no way was that a raven). After that I was all "you can die now, bye". That's the way I am with animals in fiction, someone can kill lots of people and I won't bat an eyelash but lets just say I totally get what John Wick did to the puppy killers.

Totally agree. And I didn’t even see where it made any sense for him to kill that bird. Wasn’t going to make his piece of shit father love him or is he just that stupid? So I had no sympathy for him and I hope that he is trapped forever in nightmares now. He deserves it. But I won’t know because I did not like first episode and I’m not wasting my time watching anymore . 

[DoctorAtomic]

On 8/5/2022 at 2:47 PM, thuganomics85 said:

Me:  "Sweet, it's Charles Dance!  Hey, maybe he'll actually be a nice.... nope, he's a dickbag father again."

"Charles Dance is in this? Uh oh." To me he's always Tulkinghornin Bleak House. As soon as I saw him in Game of Thrones I knew we were in for it. 

I'm only generally aware of the source material, so I figured I'd check this out. This episode probably should have been Episode 0 than the first episode because basically at the end they said what the show was going to be about. I

I liked it fine. I was hoping the show would be staying in the 1920s than in modern times because I like the look and feel of the era. I liked the actor who was the 'middle' Alex and was hoping we'd be staying with him longer; like, he actually freed Dream and Dream somehow needed him to clean up the mess the father made. 

I started watching American Gods when that came out, but I never ended up finishing. Dropping some of the more compelling characters from the first season fizzled the show on me. So I hope that doesn't happen here. They wiped out the entire plot from the first season. 

What's up with the Corinthian's eyes though?! 

Edited August 13, 2022 by DoctorAtomic

[MrWhyt]

18 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

What's up with the Corinthian's eyes though?! 

what's wrong with his eyes? they're nice and straight , pearly white. I'm sure he brushes regularly

[Black Knight]

22 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

What's up with the Corinthian's eyes though?! 

Thanks for confirming my suspicion that if I hadn't read the comics, I would not recognize the Corinthian's eyes for what they are. It's not supposed to be a mystery, but the camera's just too far away to see those eyes clearly. Maybe it works if one has a 75-inch TV, which I do not.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 8/12/2022 at 10:54 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

What's up with the Corinthian's eyes though?! 

It's a detail that doesn't come across too well on the TV.

His eyes are really mouths with razor-sharp teeth and that he can talk through. He eats the eyes of his victims with these mouths and can envision their memories. He wears the sunglasses so as to not look out of place.

[SevenStars]

Realizing that Jasmine was Dream's companion for who knows how long, it makes totally sense why he wouldn't take Alex's deal after he killed his companion/friend in cold blood. It make sense for Alex to offer Dream that deal but It also makes sense why Dream rejected it. I would not have blame Dream if he had accepted the deal and still take vengeance against Alex.

[DoctorAtomic]

What's the other option though? Stay trapped in the bowl for a 100 years out of spite while people can't sleep or can't wake up? 

[SevenStars]

54 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

What's the other option though? Stay trapped in the bowl for a 100 years out of spite while people can't sleep or can't wake up? 

He is an Endless, 100 years is probably a month for him and he probably know that sooner or later these humans would make a mistake, like they always do and he would be free. And why should he care about what is happening with humans when they're the ones doing this to him. I get it. 

[DoctorAtomic]

He also voiced over about the sleepy sickness and how being stuck in the bowl was adversely affecting humanity. Were we to take that he didn't care that humanity wasn't set right because he was in the bowl? Clearly, 100 years is a lot because his realm decayed and just about all of them left because they thought Dream abandoned him. So is it a lot of time or not? For him to not consider that leads one to ask how much he really knew his subjects. 

He was spiteful and it cost him. That's fine. It's more interesting. 

[SevenStars]

3 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

He also voiced over about the sleepy sickness and how being stuck in the bowl was adversely affecting humanity. Were we to take that he didn't care that humanity wasn't set right because he was in the bowl? Clearly, 100 years is a lot because his realm decayed and just about all of them left because they thought Dream abandoned him. So is it a lot of time or not? For him to not consider that leads one to ask how much he really knew his subjects. 

He was spiteful and it cost him. That's fine. It's more interesting. 

He was spiteful and vengeful, and to me that is understandable base on the circumstances.  It makes sense, especially when it's shown that he is/was cold and seemly inhumanly detached from not only humanity but also from his own "subjects". 

[DoctorAtomic]

I also forgot who the original object of the 'capturing' was. 

[Zuleikha]

Death was the original target.

I think the real answer for why Morpheus's motivations don't make obvious sense is that Alex's characterization is changed quite a bit from the graphic novel, but the plot points need to stay the same.  

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 8/16/2022 at 6:01 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

He also voiced over about the sleepy sickness and how being stuck in the bowl was adversely affecting humanity. Were we to take that he didn't care that humanity wasn't set right because he was in the bowl? Clearly, 100 years is a lot because his realm decayed and just about all of them left because they thought Dream abandoned him. So is it a lot of time or not? For him to not consider that leads one to ask how much he really knew his subjects. 

He was spiteful and it cost him. That's fine. It's more interesting. 

One of the quibbles I have with the voiceover is that it could have been used to let us know expressly what Dream was thinking during his imprisonment so that we could better understand why he didn't take Alex's deal, whether he knew or cared about the potential impact his absence from the Dreaming might have on it or real-world humans, etc.

Indeed, I took it that his narration was the result of after-the-fact knowledge, and while he was imprisoned, he had no idea what was going on in the Waking World or in the Dreaming. 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Chicago Redshirt

[ombre]

On 8/8/2022 at 10:45 PM, jmonique said:

I've never read the comic book, but binged the series and loved it.

However, I was entertained by Paul living in the same house with a CAPTIVE for eight decades or so, then FINALLY smudging the seal that kept Morpheus trapped and looking back like he did him a solid. Come on, man! Took you long enough.

I've had the impression from later eps that he's also *supremely* bound by rules, by propriety, by... Everything ? Rigid af.  So for dream, he's disgusted not just that someone would have had the temerity to bind him, but also that he would persist in trying to bargain for things that dream couldn't provide (like bringing people back from the dead).  But his way of dealing with the affront, his way of expressing his umbrage is to just clam up. Useful from a narrative perspective if the goal is to set his world into ruin. And useful if your goal is to show a character whose mortal flaw is that he's so stuck in his ways that he cannot break or bend even to save himself. 

Quick note - I had intended to reply to a more recent comment! This comment obviously has *nothing* to do with the quoted bit re: Paul! Somehow I grabbed the wrong one and I'm not going to try to fix it because I'm on the wee bitty screen of my phone (which is, I suspect, how I messed it up in the first place!) apologies for any confusion! 

Edited August 18, 2022 by ombre

[DoctorAtomic]

On 8/16/2022 at 9:50 PM, Zuleikha said:

Death was the original target.

No, I know, I was saying I forgot that, and in remembering, he might have been afraid to get them to open the bowl thinking somehow Death would then be trapped. 

[Bruinsfan]

I don't know, I don't see him meekly standing by and letting them make another attempt at capturing Death if he were freed. And he clearly could do things to interfere with such attempts even if bound by a vow not to harm Alex and other members of the household.

[DoctorAtomic]

I mean, not letting. I think it's ridiculous he was in there in the first place when he could have gotten out and given them some trip about needing to do whatever to deliver on his promise. I'm trying to give him some slack and maybe he thought when he was let out, still being in the circle, Death would somehow get sucked in. 

[Ottis]

On 8/6/2022 at 5:48 AM, ombre said:

I read the comics as a kid and I'm not gonna lie, I'm not sure that I had a great sense of what was going on in this part of the story by reading them.  You're just plunked into the middle of it all and have to figure it out.

UPDATE: I just read the thread for ep 2, and some of what I ask about below happened in ep 2 (I watched them together). And apparently I was not paying attention when the wheelchair broke the circle, so ... my fault. Maybe this makes sense after all.

So help me out here. Sanman (Dream) is imprisoned for 100 years or so in that glass bubble. Originally, those who kept an eye on him were warned never to fall asleep. Then, more than 100 years later. one of the rent a cops falls asleep, and Sanman immediately takes control of his dream to cause him to shoot the bubble? A few comments/questions:

- We are to believe that, for more than 100 years of constant watch, no one fell asleep while guarding Sandman?

- How could Sandman reach out to the sleeping rent-a cop? If he could do that, why couldn't he have reached out to anyone sleeping in the house at any time? Did I miss dialogue around this?

- Why did Sandman essentially consent to being imprisoned for 100 years and then suddenly take action to get out?

- Why did Sanman expect *any* of his "in the dreaming" crew to be around for more than 100 years, with no info on where he was? That seems to be quite an expectation.

- Why is his helmet so ugly? 

I have no knowledge of the book or comic or whatever. Thanks.

Edited August 24, 2022 by Ottis

[Chicago Redshirt]

5 minutes ago, Ottis said:

SO help me out here. Sanman (Dream) is imprisoned for 100 years or so in that glass bubble. Originally, those who kept an eye on him were warned never to fall asleep. Then, more than 100 years later. one of the rent a cops falls asleep, and Sanman immediately takes control of his dream to cause him to shoot the bubble? A few comments/questions:

- We are to believe that, for more than 100 years of constant watch, no one fell asleep while guarding Sandman?

- How could Sandman reach out to the sleeping rent-a cop? If he could do that, why couldn't he have reached out to anyone sleeping in the house at any time? Did I miss dialogue around this?

- Why did Sandman essentially consent to being imprisoned for 100 years and then suddenly take action to get out?

- Why did Sanman expect *any* of his "in the dreaming" crew to be around for more than 100 years, with no info on where he was? That seems to be quite an expectation.

- Why is his helmet so ugly? 

I have no knowledge of the book or comic or whatever. Thanks.

Yes, it seems possible that for more than 100 years of constant watch, no one fell asleep guarding Sandman. We were shown that early on, guards were given caffeine pills to stay alert. Or alternatively, Sandman was never in a position to take advantage of any guards who might have slept or daydreamed until his immediate escape.

The show explained that he was kept from doing non-physical things by the markings around the cell, and he was kept physically locked up by the glass/crystal cell. It was only toward the end of his imprisonment that they screwed up. Alex's lover Paul when turning Alex's wheelchair erased some of the markings around the cell which allowed Sandman to do Dream-stuff. (It was ambiguous IMO if Paul did this accidentally or deliberately). The Sandman still could not physically escape the cell, so he induced the guard to shoot it and free him physically in addition to non-physically.

Sandman didn't consent to be imprisoned. He was caught. The show doesn't explain explicitly why he did not so much as say a word for the 100 years of his imprisonment. Implicitly, I would imagine it's a combination of pride, anger and embarrassment. If I were an immortal entity that was beyond gods, I would not explain myself to something I saw as fundamentally beneath me, and I would be pissed at them and myself for having been caught in the first place.

Sandman is a king who is scrupulous about his duties. He probably thought he had instilled the same respect for duty in his subjects, but he didn't. He also may have not realized that in his absence things would go to seed as much as they did. He probably had no point of comparison. If he had realized the problems his absence might cause, maybe he would have reacted differently.

Can't really say about the helmet.

[JustHereForFood]

Netflix released a deleted scene:

[jeansheridan]

I was entranced immediately.  The Dreamworld initially was almost too cute but shrug. I adore the actor playing The Corinthian. He is the right level of charm and menace. The actor playing Sandman looks right and he's a good age. And he's established but not an instantly recognizable personality. I loved David Tenant as Crowley (in Good Omens) but he brought a lot of his own persona to that role. I think the actor playing Dream has much more flexibility to make it his own. Although I get the Pattison comparisons.