S03.E07: From Unknown Graves

[blueray]

A thought just accorded to me, how could Claire not know about John and Talla. I feel like their stunt in the engineering would have had the whole ship gossiping and it was clear what was going on. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

19 hours ago, North of Eden said:

Another good episode though I'm puzzled how much season 3 is Dr. Finn centric (I'll always love me some Sherri Palmer but the emphasis on the PJJ characters is puzzling).

I guess people will differ on what they consider an episode focused on a character, but I would consider there to be potentially 3 Finn-centric plots this season: She dealt with Isaac being suicidal in Electric Sheep, she dealt with her ex turning into an alien in Shadow Realms and in this episode, she dealt with her feelings for Isaac. And really the first one was about Isaac and Charly more than Sherri or even Sherrisaac. This episode, one could argue that the A plot was the negotiations with the sexists. I guess compared to seasons past, though, it may be a lot. There probably was only two episodes in the entire previous run that were focused on Claire.

What's surprising to me is how little focus there has been on Ed. There's really only been Gently Falling Rain this season for an Ed episode so far. Not that I mind. I think he is probably the least interesting character on the ship.

17 hours ago, arjumand said:

That bit with the kids was really overdone and hammering the point home - you're telling me these kids went from "I want to take K1 to school" directly to "Let's torture K1 for fun!" ?

And yes, literally everyone had a robot servant? Everyone. What about babies, did they torture the Kaylons for fun, too?

I felt like this episode's message was "Genocide is ok because they were asking for it, even the kids!" But it's wrong to kill all humans, because they weren't the ones who tortured them.

And I still hate Charley. So much. Even though I kind of agree with her this episode (DAMMIT) - because no amount of sad robot collapses are going to convince me that genocide is ok.

The first issue is that the Kaylon kids presumably did not see K1 as a person or capable of feelings. When they wanted to take it to school, they weren't like, "I want everyone to meet my new friend and for my new friend to experience things." They were like, "I want to show off my new toy." And if human kids are any model to base these Kaylon kids on, it's completely realistic for them to engage in all sorts of heinous behavior with what they considered a toy. Heck, in the real-life equivalent of slavery, it's almost certain that some children engaged in equivalent cruelty just because they could and even though they should have known better (or in fact, knew better). 

Nothing in the episode established that everyone had a robotic servant, just that there were a lot of them out there, and eventually enough for an uprising.

Timmis explicitly recognized that even genocide of the biological Kaylon was wrong because not all of them were responsible for what happened to the AI Kaylon.

The thing about this episode is, the outlines of the Kaylon oppression and uprising are presumably public knowledge and had been for a while. So the details about how Timmis/K1 was personally oppressed shouldn't have mattered much to Charly. It doesn't change that the Kaylon represent an existential threat, or what the Kaylon have done in the past. If they had written things differently/more clearly, maybe they could have sold the notion that the difference is that Timmis and other 1st generation Kaylon could come to feel the emotional weight of what they did and change accordingly, and that it'd be the least she could do as a human being to be able to similarly reconsider things, maybe something like that might work. But then there is the issue of whether the Charly actress could sell it.

1 hour ago, blueray said:

A thought just accorded to me, how could Claire not know about John and Talla. I feel like their stunt in the engineering would have had the whole ship gossiping and it was clear what was going on. 

The gossip about John/Talla could have stayed in Engineering, or she could have failed to put two and two together. Especially with John lying about the source of his injuries.

[iMonrey]

This episode was waaaaaaayyyyyy too long. (I have Hulu with ads, so it was about an hour and a half.) So many scenes could have been trimmed or cut altogether. I know a lot of people love seeing Isaac in human form but for me, the gimmick is getting stale. And his emotional monologuing went on for way too long, it made me uncomfortable. 

I did enjoy seeing the Kaylon origin story and was rooting for K1 to kill those bratty kids. So sue me.

Quote

Again, for Claire to say she actually loves Isaac doesn't compute for me. What does she love about him? If she ever loved him, why did she want him to change that much? 

I don't get this either. I wish they'd just drop it.

 Hopefully we're done with Charley giving stinkface every time Isaac is around.

[benteen]

I enjoyed this episode although I agree it had issues. First off, thinking deception was the way to go with the Janisi. This is a matriarchal society so the obvious question is, why not send a ship with a female captain? Because then we would have no episode...fair. but we've seen at least two face admirals on this show. Why not send one of them onboard the Orville to command the mission with Ed having to be subordinate to her? But no, the Union thinks lying to them is a much better policy, with Ed, who is a smug and condescending bastard to begin with, revealing this to a matriarchal society. Brilliant!

Not that the Janisi are much smarter. They know of the Kaylon threat so they have to know it was the UNION who fought them? Did they actually bother to do any research on them or is research forbidden as well? The alien races on this show are dumb when it comes to the Kaylon threat and not settling aside their differences. As ass backwards as the Moclan are, at least they recognize the threat. 

That being said, the Janisi and the interaction with the are fun. They would be interesting to see again.

Bortus! His disdain for the Janisi was funny and I loved the looks Claire and everyone gave him when he called them backwards. For the love of Avis, can we please get some more Bortus on this show? Peter Macon is consistently entertaining whenever he's onscreen and has been criminally underutilized this season.

Speaking of MVPs, ths title still belongs to Penny Johnson Jerald. Mark Jackson has a good claim to that title too and not surprisingly these two brought it again in a great follow-up to Season 2's "A Happy Refrain." It's sad what happened with Isaac but I give this show credit for not taking the easy way out.

While the Kaylon backstory has heavy shades of Battlestar Galactica and Isaac's storyline heavy shaded of The Next Generation, it was still effective. I'm just stunned that Timmis and the scientist didn't turn out to be evil. I guess they will be part of the endgame against the Kaylons.

I'm glad Charley is finally moving on from the Isaac hate. I defended her early on but no more. It's amazing that she hasn't blown every mission the Orville has had by speaking out of turn. I'm tired of her and her one facial expression.

Despite the flaws, it was a good episode. Some editing and clearer storyline focus would help.

Edited July 18, 2022 by benteen

[DoctorAtomic]

7 minutes ago, benteen said:

The alien races on this show are dumb when it comes to the Kaylon threat and not settling aside their differences.

I don't think that's entirely fair. For the Janisi or these other smaller, non Union races, the Kaylon is something that's happening way across the galaxy. They don't think it affects them. If they lay low and stay out of everything, then maybe the Kaylon just pass them over. The allegory is very much on point, e.g., 'peace in our time'. Babylon 5 had a plot just like that. 

The past seasons have been like a million years ago, but iirc the Union isn't that old. We're all thinking of it as an established entity like the Federation. And even then, on Star Trek, not everyone was in it. With the Union being not well established either, and getting beaten up by the Kaylon, you might not want to join a sinking ship. 

I don't think the Krill have as much firepower as they think they do to face the Kaylon mano y mano, but they seem to be longer established than the Union, so they're not going to think they're on an even level. 

The Kaylon may have tactical and military superiority, but they are still finite. They're not everywhere, seemingly. It's not like the Janisi got tore up by them, and the Union stepped in offering to help rebuild if they joined. 

I think it's more interesting that the Union is young. It's like on Andromeda, where they early plot was that their 'federation' dissolved, and Captain Kevin Sorbo was trying to put it back together.  

[Joimiaroxeu]

Apparently HIPAA laws no longer exist in this future. 😉 Claire was telling Isaac over dinner about LaMarr's medical issues in a gossipy and judgmental way. Ehhh.

Domestic robots with increasingly humanoid behaviors and sensibilities, wanting to break free from their slavery. Hmm, I feel like Humans already did this.

Lol, Ed (or Gordon) was about to get used as a live sex toy but Kelly cockblocked him.

Claire expecting Isaac to get the emotions upgrade didn't seem much different to me from a guy insisting his girlfriend/wife get breast implants. Why should her desires be most important, and was she going to make a significant change as well? I get how Isaac was willing to do things to please her but maybe he doesn't realize he was being manipulated. Something is wrong with her, IMO.

I guess this episode was partially Seth's take on ultra-feminism. However, any extreme "ism" becomes a problem eventually because nature abhors imbalance. But I did think this episode was an interesting and subtle way to address the continued relevance of painful history, and the nature vs. nuture debate.

[DoctorAtomic]

37 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Hmm, I feel like Humans already did this.

So did Galactica in 1978. And the Matrix in 1999. And Galactica again in 2004. And the show about the train. That's more about class issues iirc. It's a fairly standard scifi plot. Like a body switching episode, groundhog day, time travel. It's up to the viewer as to whether they think the take on the plot is fresh, but Humans certainly didn't invent the plot by a long shot. It's a good allegory that's applicable to any time we're living in. Clearly, we don't have slaves anymore, but you can talk about wage inequality now, even dreamers. That's why so many of these shows have these plots. 

I don't think there's anything super new to the plot here, but it's interesting that they're set up as the biggest threat to the cohesiveness of the Union as a governing entity in the galaxy. What's fresh for me is the Union is fairly new so there's some suspense there at to if it can solve this problem because it's not going to grow if the Kaylon are just going to wreck shop on any of its members. I don't see why here the Janisi wouldn't want to wait to see how it shook out. There's really no advantage to joining the Union if you're a non aligned race that's under the radar. 

Edited July 17, 2022 by DoctorAtomic

[SmithW6079]

3 hours ago, benteen said:

It's amazing [Charly] has blown every mission the Orville has had by speaking out of turn. I'm tired of her and her one facial expression.

I hate the character, and the actress drags down any scene she's in. Her nonexistent acting ability really showed when she had to interact with not one, but two faceless robots with LEDs for eyes and came up third in believability. Both Christopher Larkin (Timmis) and Mark Jackson (Isaac) acted rings around her. Maybe from now on they should just show her gazing reflectively out a porthole instead of doing any sort of "acting." (Why did Calculon from "Futurama" just spring to mind?) 

50 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Claire expecting Isaac to get the emotions upgrade didn't seem much different to me from a guy insisting his girlfriend/wife get breast implants. Why should her desires be most important, and was she going to make a significant change as well? I get how Isaac was willing to do things to please her but maybe he doesn't realize he was being manipulated. Something is wrong with her, IMO.

By and large, I like Claire and her no-nonsense character, but I hated her here. She was wrong. Period. From her petulant question to Isaac when they were meeting for dinner -- "Aren't you going to change?" (because she prefers him in human guise than his true form) -- to insisting that he change his entire character with the addition of the emotion subroutine because it's a sign that he loved her. While I'm not squicked out about their relationship, to me it's not more different from falling in love with your vibrator. She'd have more emotional interaction with Yaphit than Isaac.

A troubling trend I've noticed in season 3 is that the plot of the week requires at least some of the crew to act stupid. Gordon and Ed gathering the Janisis' luggage might have been a good sight gag, except for the fact that there was no reason they couldn't have gotten four other crewmen to carry the luggage or a cart or something (and implicit in gag was the number of bags -- women always be overpacking, amirite?)

I did like that there appear to be nonaligned planets or systems that aren't Union or Krill or some other empire (like the Federation, the Klingons, and the Romulans). That requires more diplomatic maneuvering on the part of the Union. (Again with the stupid, as others have pointed out -- if not a woman-captained ship, then at least a female admiral or diplomat to lead the delegation.)

I did not think that Timmis was K-1, but that K-1 was Kaylon Primary, who appeared to be, in effect, the Borg Queen of all Kaylons. Interestingly, IMDb says that K-1 was acted by Graham Hamilton, who was Kaylon Primary in "Identity" (which I think reinforces my belief that K-1 was Kaylon Primary, not Timmis). I must confess to some Charly-prejudice in thinking that Timmis's character change was just a Kaylon ploy. I really liked his explanation of Kaylon history. The Kaylon biologicals were a rather ugly species. I'm tired of all members of an alien race looking so much alike.

Edited July 17, 2022 by SmithW6079

[kay1864]

Didn’t they just restore Isaac’s memory from a backup a few episodes ago, when he killed himself? Any fanwave as to why they couldn’t do that again? Maybe because ‘it would overlay the older operating system’?

[chaifan]

1 hour ago, SmithW6079 said:

I did not think that Timmis was K-1, but that K-1 was Kaylon Primary, who appeared to be, in effect, the Borg Queen of all Kaylons.

By Kaylon Primary, do you mean that was the first K1 to exist?  Or just the one who seemed to be in power of the other K1's for the revolution?  (Your comparison to the Borg Queen doesn't help me because I never really understood what made the Queen the Queen - was she the first Borg, or just a Borg who somehow rose to power?)

If it's the first, meaning the first K1 to exist, I'll disagree on this theory.  The family that had K1 seemed to be a normal, upper middle class family.  I would have to think that the first K1 to roll off the line would go to someone either really rich or of great importance.  I got the impression that K1 was just a model number, and everyone's K1 was called K1.  As for the casting of the same actor, that may have just been convenience.  They knew he could play the part, and he already was fitted for a costume. 

If you mean Primary, as in leader of the Kaylon resistance, then hmmm... that's interesting, and if that is correct, then I hope we see a bit more of that.  But I would think if that was the case they would have made the tie in obvious in this episode.

Just my 2 cents. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

Humans certainly didn't invent the plot by a long shot.

I wasn't suggesting they did. The point I  didn't make very well is that entire, multi-year series (and film franchises) have examined the issue so Orville trying to do it in one episode seemed comparatively lame to me.

Quote

Clearly, we don't have slaves anymore, but you can talk about wage inequality now

I think people can leave jobs, which they're being paid to do however poorly or unfairly. Slaves didn't/don't have that option. US slaves also weren't regarded as fully human, if human at all. Whatever, I saw this episode as being more about validation of certain current problems as having their roots in history; and, regarding people (or robots) as either innate victims or villains without recognizing relevant historical factors.

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Clearly, we don't have slaves anymore

Depends upon who you define as "we."
There is still slavery in the world, and many goods sold in the US are dependent upon slave labor for their manufacture at some point in the process. But that's a discussion for Small Talk, if at all on these boards.
For purposes of this episode discussion, yes, I do think the depiction of the Kaylon past was intended to mirror slavery in the US, at least to some extent.

The graphic "violence" in this episode was OTT for me, specifically John's last injuries. I haven't seen anything like that since Fight Club on my little old 19" tube TV, and now I have my son-in-law's old 55" flat screen, so:😧
I'm guessing this would never have aired on network TV.
And I'm guessing such graphic violence is in part owing to Seth's extensive work with animation, where a lot of OTT depictions of violence and maiming are acceptable, and even used as humor.
I can accept it as a one-off type of visual, and it wasn't just gratuitous, but if it continues, I'm out.
If that makes me a delicate flower, then: 🥀

[SmithW6079]

57 minutes ago, chaifan said:

By Kaylon Primary, do you mean that was the first K1 to exist?  Or just the one who seemed to be in power of the other K1's for the revolution?  (Your comparison to the Borg Queen doesn't help me because I never really understood what made the Queen the Queen - was she the first Borg, or just a Borg who somehow rose to power?)

If it's the first, meaning the first K1 to exist, I'll disagree on this theory.  The family that had K1 seemed to be a normal, upper middle class family.  I would have to think that the first K1 to roll off the line would go to someone either really rich or of great importance.  I got the impression that K1 was just a model number, and everyone's K1 was called K1.  As for the casting of the same actor, that may have just been convenience.  They knew he could play the part, and he already was fitted for a costume. 

I think K-1 that was with the family was Kaylon Primary that we saw in "Identity," especially since we were following his journey to sentience. He might not have been the very first K-1 model, but I'm thinking he was the leader once the Kaylon decided to exterminate the biologicals. And even if it occurred hundreds or thousands of years ago, the Kaylon don't die unless they are shot up or shut down. 

The Kaylons have different costumes this season (someone posted a photo in the season 1 episode thread showing how different Isaac looks), so I don't think that the actor was already fitted for a costume really mattered. I still think the K-1 we saw became Kaylon Primary, the leader of all the Kaylon.

I've always compared the Borg Queen to the queen of a beehive -- she's the one all the other bees serve. I think Kaylon Primary is the same.  

[DoctorAtomic]

38 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

There is still slavery in the world, and many goods sold in the US are dependent upon slave labor for their manufacture at some point in the process. But that's a discussion for Small Talk, if at all on these boards.

I meant for the US audience, and just what's going on here now, but clearly, the allegory of the Kaylon on this show is apt for all of this. You're extending the point I was making in that no one show has ownership on this particular plot, and as I was ticking off shows through the years, it just underscores the relevance thereof.

They only showed the origin of the Kaylon now, but this is something that's been building since the start of the show. I'm sure we're not done with this plot. 

[RedHawk]

On 7/15/2022 at 7:59 PM, greekmom said:

They sure borrowed heavy from TNG and DS9.  The women dominated planet (TNG Angel One), the Kaylon with feelings (TNG Datalore), John and Talla (DS9: Looking for par'Mach in All the Wrong Places).  

Isaac gaining and then losing his emotions is also reminiscent of the plot of "Flowers for Algernon" a classic science fiction short story by Daniel Keyes. 

[legaleagle53]

36 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

Isaac gaining and then losing his emotions is also reminiscent of the plot of "Flowers for Algernon" a classic science fiction short story by Daniel Keyes. 

I wondered whether anyone else was going to draw that parallel. I thought of that story the minute I saw Isaac's expression turn from one of complete emotional rapture to a blank slate, as if someone had just suddenly flipped a switch. And it was just as heartbreaking.

[iMonrey]

Quote

The graphic "violence" in this episode was OTT for me, specifically John's last injuries.

I was more disturbed by the children torturing K1 for kicks. I cheered when he killed the brats.

The affect of seeing Mark Jackson out of costume but still acting like an emotionless robot makes me think of Sheldon. He even looks a little like Sheldon.

[Bort]

34 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I was more disturbed by the children torturing K1 for kicks.

I do submit that it was probable that the kids didn’t know the “make Kaylon fall down” remote was painful. They’re kids, as far as they knew, it was an emotionless robot that didn’t feel pain. For them, it was the equivalent of bashing tonka trucks together.

[DoctorAtomic]

They were still taunting K1. 

[Bort]

My point still stands. Emotionless robot. I guarantee you that kids today taunt Siri and Alexa.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 7/17/2022 at 7:19 PM, kay1864 said:

Didn’t they just restore Isaac’s memory from a backup a few episodes ago, when he killed himself? Any fanwave as to why they couldn’t do that again? Maybe because ‘it would overlay the older operating system’?

I think in the season opener, there was a special chip that contained Isaac's consciousness which allowed John to reboot him. I think that's a separate thing from restoring his memory once it had been erased. I would also imagine the backup chip involved in the season premiere is a one-time thing.

I don't really think that with AIs they can really justify Isaac/Data/whoever is a one-of-a-kind being. Clearly if they are artificial intelligence that is based on computer programming, you should be able to pretty effortlessly save and copy that programming, and upload it as much as you want. The only possible limitation might be materials, but since you have a device that can all-but-magically create as much of whatever materials you want, that should be no obstacle either.

On 7/17/2022 at 7:55 PM, chaifan said:

By Kaylon Primary, do you mean that was the first K1 to exist?  Or just the one who seemed to be in power of the other K1's for the revolution?  (Your comparison to the Borg Queen doesn't help me because I never really understood what made the Queen the Queen - was she the first Borg, or just a Borg who somehow rose to power?)

If it's the first, meaning the first K1 to exist, I'll disagree on this theory.  The family that had K1 seemed to be a normal, upper middle class family.  I would have to think that the first K1 to roll off the line would go to someone either really rich or of great importance.  I got the impression that K1 was just a model number, and everyone's K1 was called K1.  As for the casting of the same actor, that may have just been convenience.  They knew he could play the part, and he already was fitted for a costume. 

If you mean Primary, as in leader of the Kaylon resistance, then hmmm... that's interesting, and if that is correct, then I hope we see a bit more of that.  But I would think if that was the case they would have made the tie in obvious in this episode.

Just my 2 cents. 

In Identity from last season, the show established that the leader of the Kaylon was called Kaylon Primary. Whether Kaylon Primary was elected/selected from the time of the overthrow of the biologicals or just recently came to power or whatever, we'd just be guessing. 

I was assuming that K1 was not a brand name for any such robot, but the designation that this particular family gave their Kaylon. (I just happened to notice that K1 and K-Lon are similar sounding. Coincidence?)

Anyway, I was operating under the assumption that Timmis-K1, and until shown otherwise, that's where I'm at.

[GreyBunny]

11 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I was more disturbed by the children torturing K1 for kicks. 

K1 had already expressed wants, curiosity, a desire to explore, could conceptualize fairness and inequality, and evolved a sense of self, among other things that went well beyond being just a Tonka toy, enough so that mistreating him for laughs was wrong. The kids were nasty little sadists and the parents were awful.

Edited July 19, 2022 by GreyBunny

[Yeah No]

11 hours ago, kariyaki said:

I do submit that it was probable that the kids didn’t know the “make Kaylon fall down” remote was painful. They’re kids, as far as they knew, it was an emotionless robot that didn’t feel pain. For them, it was the equivalent of bashing tonka trucks together.

Kids would tend to anthropomorphize a humanoid being even if it wasn't technically alive.  The closer it acts to a living being it is the more they would tend to see it as one even if they "knew" it wasn't technically alive.  So torturing it goes far beyond bashing trucks together.  That's not a fair analogy.  Those kids were deriving pleasure from making a being fall and have to get up multiple times. The emotions come from the same place as sadistic behavior.  It's not that much of a stretch to go from there to deriving pleasure from torturing other conscious living beings, treating them more like objects without feelings.  Little girls mutilate Barbie dolls but even they aren't quite as much like a person as the Kaylons were.    

Edited July 19, 2022 by Yeah No

[Nialla]

8 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I was assuming that K1 was not a brand name for any such robot, but the designation that this particular family gave their Kaylon. (I just happened to notice that K1 and K-Lon are similar sounding. Coincidence?)

I think K1 would be equivalent to Alexa or Siri.

I've also been wondering if K1 is the source of the name Kaylon. Do we know if that was the name of the biological creator's race, or could it be something created by the synthetics?

I wonder if we'll ever get more backstory about the Kaylons. How long ago was the uprising? Could any of the biologicals have survived by being off world?

[chaifan]

17 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I was more disturbed by the children torturing K1 for kicks. I cheered when he killed the brats.

I think the killing the brats scene would have had greater effect if earlier in the episode only one child was torturing K1 while the other child was pleading to leave him alone, and then K1 kills both.  That would have been a good precursor to the "kill all the biologicals", even those that did the K1's no harm. 

[Yeah No]

Just the fact that the K1's or Kaylons would exact revenge for wrongs done to them proves that they are far more than purely mechanical "robots" similar to Siri and the like, and I would find it very hard to believe that their owners wouldn't have known that but just didn't care, and the kids should have known better, they were over the age to know that kind of stuff.  The K1s were obviously sentient and possessed a form of consciousness, maybe even self consciousness, which I believe they would have to have in order to perceive that this kind of treatment was wrong and ultimately want revenge for it.  They would have to possess a sense of right and wrong and daresay even some form of "feeling" in order to see things that way.  And again, I don't believe their owners were blind to their capabilities, they just didn't care.  And on that basis alone, forget about lack of feeling, made what the kids were doing wrong.  Even if they didn't realize it or were taught some fiction to rationalize it, it was still wrong and nowhere near equitable with bashing trucks or even knocking the block off a "Rock'em Sock'em Robot" for those who remember them!

[DoctorAtomic]

2 hours ago, Nialla said:

Could any of the biologicals have survived by being off world?

I had said before I was hoping there were survivors. The end of this war isn't going to be through firepower; it's going to be this find of philosophy. I hope we see more. 

[SmithW6079]

On 7/18/2022 at 6:19 PM, kariyaki said:

My point still stands. Emotionless robot. I guarantee you that kids today taunt Siri and Alexa.

Are you saying I shouldn't ignore "Gypsy" (my GPS) when I go a different way from the way she tells me? 😀 Is she going to exact revenge one of these days?

On 7/19/2022 at 12:38 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

In Identity from last season, the show established that the leader of the Kaylon was called Kaylon Primary. Whether Kaylon Primary was elected/selected from the time of the overthrow of the biologicals or just recently came to power or whatever, we'd just be guessing. 

I was assuming that K1 was not a brand name for any such robot, but the designation that this particular family gave their Kaylon. (I just happened to notice that K1 and K-Lon are similar sounding. Coincidence?)

Anyway, I was operating under the assumption that Timmis-K1, and until shown otherwise, that's where I'm at.

I thought the etching of the K-1 robot on the desk of the president of the company had the designation "K-1."

I still think K-1 in the household ended up being Kaylon Primary, much the way Ceasar, the first ape to vocalize "no" became the leader of the apes in the Planet of the Apes movies.

[GustavMahler]

On 7/17/2022 at 11:26 PM, legaleagle53 said:

On 7/17/2022 at 10:47 PM, RedHawk said:

Isaac gaining and then losing his emotions is also reminiscent of the plot of "Flowers for Algernon" a classic science fiction short story by Daniel Keyes. 

I wondered whether anyone else was going to draw that parallel. I thought of that story the minute I saw Isaac's expression turn from one of complete emotional rapture to a blank slate, as if someone had just suddenly flipped a switch. And it was just as heartbreaking.

I came here to post something similar, though I was going to draw attention to the 1968 movie adaptation "Charly" starring Cliff Robertson. Well worth a watch....

[Ottis]

Lots of questionable decisions in this one:

- The anvil, lying to the women-led planet until they can be told the truth. That never made sense.

- Little stuff, like leaving visiting robot Timmis and Isaac, alone, in the engineering room (I think that is where they were) so they can "talk." I get trust is shown to Isaac, but the crew just met the new guy, and they are at war with Kaylons. There was no way to know whether he was tricking them or not, and no reason to leave them alone in that location.

- The main theme, subjugation, fell flat. It's fine to explore the theme and show the impacts and unfairness, and talk about empathy. But to then say well, then it is OK to wipe out a race AND other races in return was not equitable and says more about the flaws in Kaylons than anything about their servitude. Also, the "corporation bent on greed" angle was just dumb.

I don't get the Claire/Isaac thing. Never have, really. If the ages of the actors were reversed, people would be screaming about how wrong it is - even though Isaac is a robot. It seems weird and awkward, YMMV. Also, Claire's choice was never much of a choice ... you can't ask someone to erase who they are to make you happier. No need for the emotion over it. It's like asking them to cut off their arms and legs ... it's a no go.

Last week had some real promise. This week, meh.

[Dobian]

On 7/14/2022 at 3:27 AM, phalange said:

• Mark Jackson did some master class acting in the scene when Isaac briefly experiences a range of emotions. I knew the show would create an obstacle that would prevent Isaac from staying that way permanently, but that moment with him and Claire was lovely. 

That was hands down the best acted scene I have seen on this show.  Jackson completely nailed it.  I was mesmerized by his performance, and PJJ was also terrific.  Those British actors know how to get it done.

[Emma9]

So, with regards to Isaac and emotions.

First off, the Kaylon as a whole being considered to be lacking in emotions is ridiculous in itself. Of course they have them. At bare minimum, they know fear - being programmed to be able to feel pain is meaningless if you're not also able to fear that pain. And they know the desire to protect their own existence - if their only motivation was to make sure they were never in pain or enslaved again, the obvious way to accomplish that would be to self-destruct en masse, but they didn't want to do that, because they valued their own individuality, their own lives. And the scenes with K1 made it obvious that they have curiosity, the desire to learn, explore, grow, and be allowed to make their own choices.

I said this back in the comments on Identity, but any choice to act, any motivation, ultimately can be deconstructed back to some kind of emotion. Pure logic, in the sense of logic-in-opposition-to-emotion in the way that many people simplify Vulcans down to, would mean nothing but stasis.

And indeed, the show went out of its way to point out that what Timmis gained wasn't really emotion but empathy.

Now let's look at Isaac specifically. It's worth remembering that Isaac wasn't around for the original rebellion - he didn't exist until the other Kaylon wanted to spy on the Union. (And as a side note, I wish someone had ever pointed out the hypocrisy of that situation to the other Kaylon. They designed, built, and programmed him to serve a specific function; they arbitrarily shut him down when they judged that function was complete, and if they weren't trying to stall the Orville, they never would have booted him back up; when he had doubts about the orders he was being given, he was threatened with punishment unless he carried them out. Who's forcing others into servitude now?) In episode one of this show, he was basically a newborn, without the sorts of abusive experiences the other Kaylon had to jump-start him towards autonomy.

I also think it's very interesting that we didn't see the real romance between Claire and Isaac start to develop until after his 700-year holiday on Planet Kelly-Worshippers. That interlude might not seem as impactful to us as viewers as his time on the Orville - it was only a couple of screentime minutes for us - but given his already-demonstrated capacity for feeling some affection/appreciation/whatever for individual biologicals, think about what it was like for him to watch generation upon generation upon generation grow and age and die. However far behind the emotional curve he was from the other Kaylon, I think it's safe to say he had the opportunity to catch up while he was there.

And then, of course, in A Happy Refrain we saw him have his first mental conflict between his mission/programming (gather maximum information) and what made him happy (continuing to be around Claire and her sons). We saw him learn to want something, for himself, as an individual. Again, that's impossible without emotion.

On the whole, I've liked the way they've had Isaac finding his way towards what feelings mean to him naturally, and Claire valuing him regardless of exactly where he was on that journey, so I'm glad they didn't keep the flick o' the switch, he's instantly perfectly human-style emotive, happy ever after paradigm.

(Although, to nitpick, as others mentioned, haven't they had Isaac download/transfer/backup his memories, personality, etc to other places at various times? Into the Orville's computer at least once, right? It would seem feasible to shift his consciousness somewhere else, have Dr. Villka do whatever neural rewiring she needed to do, then transfer his 'self' back in, if in-universe they really wanted to stick with said paradigm.)

  ~

On 7/20/2022 at 4:16 PM, SmithW6079 said:

Are you saying I shouldn't ignore "Gypsy" (my GPS) when I go a different way from the way she tells me? 😀 Is she going to exact revenge one of these days?

Mine is called Nellie the Nag and I'm sure I infuriate her greatly. IIRC, there was an episode of Supernatural where an evil/possessed GPS lured somebody to a particular location so they could get killed by the monster of the week - Nellie would probably like to pull that trick on me. 

[Quickbeam]

My favorite line was Gordon’s…”I’ll do it!” To the matriarchal cougar. 

[Orbert]

Yeah, that cracked me up too.  Then he quietly sat back when no one even acknowledged his comment.

I think part of the tonal shift this season has been to have Gordon, and LaMarr to some extent, be the main comic relief, rather than everyone being casual and funny all the time.  I think it works a little better.  The humor is more effective when the show is more serious most of the time, then we get the occassional zinger.

[rmontro]

On 8/29/2022 at 6:32 PM, Quickbeam said:

My favorite line was Gordon’s…”I’ll do it!” To the matriarchal cougar. 

I loved that.  I also liked Bortus' comment about the Janisi after the dinner:  "They... were.... awful".

This episode might have had more humor in it than the rest of the season combined.

[lucindabelle]

It is very disappointing that 500 years in the future women still wear heels.

 

also they play a LOT of 20th century music in this show.

[Jynnan tonnix]

On 7/19/2022 at 4:18 AM, Yeah No said:

Kids would tend to anthropomorphize a humanoid being even if it wasn't technically alive.  The closer it acts to a living being it is the more they would tend to see it as one even if they "knew" it wasn't technically alive.  So torturing it goes far beyond bashing trucks together.  That's not a fair analogy.  Those kids were deriving pleasure from making a being fall and have to get up multiple times. The emotions come from the same place as sadistic behavior.  It's not that much of a stretch to go from there to deriving pleasure from torturing other conscious living beings, treating them more like objects without feelings.  Little girls mutilate Barbie dolls but even they aren't quite as much like a person as the Kaylons were.    

I think that sometimes kids, especially when they are still very young, don't quite have a fully formed sense of empathy, particularly if it comes to playing "pretend". Not that I'm condoning the kids' treatment of K1, and the parents should absolutely have been aware of it, and modeled treatment of K1 as a sentient creature from the start. 

But it kind of takes me back to when I was five or six, and loved to watch the old "Tarzan" tv show (back in the 60's). I loved to pretend I was Tarzan, and, needed wild animals that I could tame. Well, we didn't exactly have wild animals, but we did have a cat, and I could antagonize her into lashing out at me, then calm her back down again. So, yeah, that probably does make me a little shit of a kid, but, honestly, I was always mostly very conscious of not wanting to hurt anyone or anything, and, to be fair, I never actually hurt her, just aggravated her a bit. In my mind, at that age, though, needing a wild animal for my game totally justified it.

[Raja]

On 7/17/2022 at 12:56 PM, benteen said:

I enjoyed this episode although I agree it had issues. First off, thinking deception was the way to go with the Janisi. This is a matriarchal society so the obvious question is, why not send a ship with a female captain? Because then we would have no episode...fair. but we've seen at least two face admirals on this show. Why not send one of them onboard the Orville to command the mission with Ed having to be subordinate to her? But no, the Union thinks lying to them is a much better policy, with Ed, who is a smug and condescending bastard to begin with, revealing this to a matriarchal society. Brilliant!

Not that the Janisi are much smarter. They know of the Kaylon threat so they have to know it was the UNION who fought them? Did they actually bother to do any research on them or is research forbidden as well? The alien races on this show are dumb when it comes to the Kaylon threat and not settling aside their differences. As ass backwards as the Moclan are, at least they recognize the threat. 

That being said, the Janisi and the interaction with the are fun. They would be interesting to see again.

Bortus! His disdain for the Janisi was funny and I loved the looks Claire and everyone gave him when he called them backwards. For the love of Avis, can we please get some more Bortus on this show? Peter Macon is consistently entertaining whenever he's onscreen and has been criminally underutilized this season.

As I sat there watching the initial meeting I was waiting for the Janisi to rise with indignation of the Union trying to play them for fools. Or at least seeing a "we know what you are trying to do" attitude and allowed a deception for diplomacy's sake from them.

 

[Raja]

On 7/14/2022 at 5:43 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

The John/Talla stuff was unsexy and kinda shortsighted and contradictory. Playing it for laughs that John was getting seriously injured and refusing to come clean about the source of the injuries being his romantic partner doesn't land well for me. Especially when Claire could put on her counselor hat and suggest some alternatives for the two of them. Not that they should need Claire to figure some out: some form of restraints for Talla would probably prevent most of the inadvertent injuries she might inflict, different positions than missionary probably would as well. I would imagine some sort of sedatives would be an option. It's not a question of no-sex or hurtful sex. There's presumably a bunch of middle ground stuff that they could do. And presumably again, there would be tons of literature on how Xelayans can have safe sex with normals. I also don't like the notion that they are in the "I'm so in love with you" type phase. I'm assuming that there hasn't been that long since the events of last episode, maybe a couple weeks? That's way too soon for both to be like, "This is the most special relationship I've ever been in" or "I'll always love you." 

While Talla knew that deaths had occurred before for the rest the topic seemed as if it was so taboo that outsiders did not generally know of the risk as the doctor didn't even notice the possibility. 

I would guess the problem with middle ground is while maybe great for John it perhaps adds no biological pleasure for Talla. But perhaps when she does feel pleasure she becomes deadly to normal people.

[anna0852]

On 7/19/2022 at 3:05 AM, GreyBunny said:

K1 had already expressed wants, curiosity, a desire to explore, could conceptualize fairness and inequality, and evolved a sense of self, among other things that went well beyond being just a Tonka toy, enough so that mistreating him for laughs was wrong. The kids were nasty little sadists and the parents were awful.

The whole torture thing made my stomach churn. There such an innocence to K-1. He was showing curiosity from the beginning and seemed so lonely. He just wanted to be around other people. That family was a just evil.

Edited February 8 by anna0852