S03.E04: Gently Falling Rain

[DoctorAtomic]

I don't have a problem with the criticisms of the show to a point. I don't think it would be real that everyone is back to being cool with Isaac. People hating with or without reason is realistic. And Ed called her out on it right in the first episode. 

The other thing that I like about the show is that the Orville and crew aren't the Union flagship. This isn't the best of the best. Ed and Kelly went into the hologram and got drunk in the middle of the day. These are the top two ranking officers. 

So the dumb stuff has some grounding for me. 

I don't think a one to one comparison to TNG is warranted because that crew was supposed to be the best of the best and the federation has been around a long time. 

Ed was washed up until Kelly got him the position, even though in the past he was proven to be capable. 

It doesn't seem like the Union is particularly established yet. I think we talked about that years ago before Bortus ate all our old posts. 

I actually find these deficiencies more interesting. 

[tkc]

39 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Continuing to have Charly voice contempt for Isaac has to be going somewhere, right?
Like Isaac saves her by throwing himself on a bomb or something? 

Could be room for an interesting game here: which dramatic trope will The Orville employ (while seeming to subvert) to bring the Charly/Isaac conflict to a head?

How about: Charly refuses to sacrifice herself for Isaac?

(Apologies: starting to veer off the episode discussion.)

[djlynch]

In concept, I like the idea of one character not getting along another without either one being a villain or having all of their differences resolved in a single episode because it's something that utopian sci-fi hasn't really shown us, but in practice, the writing is letting it down. The way Charly talks about Isaac and the Kaylons is kind of racist and the way she says out loud that she doesn't like him every time they're in the same room makes her seem whiny, to the point where I wonder why the rest of the bridge crew are still inviting her to socialize with them if she's going to just badmouth another friend when he arrives.

[DoctorAtomic]

That's an interesting question. If Isaac were sentient, like biologically, whether human or alien, would she be able to blatantly say what she's been saying? What would they do if she said any of that about Bortus? 

[tkc]

On 6/22/2022 at 11:41 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

It seems silly that in the 2500s there could be such a thing as an accidental pregnancy. Krill must develop hella fast, because I thought we were told it was only about a year since Ed let Telaya go.

I don’t think Ed is the father.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Colorado David said:

In a future twist,  Charly figures out a way to strand Isaac in a weird pocket of 4 dimensional space, and Ed and the rest are stumped in trying to find him. So they assume he's gone, and we're back to the evil Kaelon storyline. Problem solved - less lines for Charly now, without Isaac to complain about, and the initial villains remain the initial villains.

. . . [continuing the future twist] until Charly realizes she needs to do a mind meld with Isaac to pull off enough 4-dimensional computing to save the day.
And during the mind meld, she sees he really does have a heart. 
Okay. Maybe not that last part.
Ooo! During the mind meld Charly sees that Isaac can see things in 4 dimensions too, unlike 99% of other sentient beings, so they bond over that -- just a little, like a détente. 

Or, if Seth & Winters split up, Charly's life can be saved by transplanting her brain into a Kaylon body.
Maybe that was always the plan?

 

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I don't have a problem with the criticisms of the show to a point. I don't think it would be real that everyone is back to being cool with Isaac. People hating with or without reason is realistic. And Ed called her out on it right in the first episode. 

The other thing that I like about the show is that the Orville and crew aren't the Union flagship. This isn't the best of the best. Ed and Kelly went into the hologram and got drunk in the middle of the day. These are the top two ranking officers. 

So the dumb stuff has some grounding for me. 

I don't think a one to one comparison to TNG is warranted because that crew was supposed to be the best of the best and the federation has been around a long time. 

Ed was washed up until Kelly got him the position, even though in the past he was proven to be capable. 

It doesn't seem like the Union is particularly established yet. I think we talked about that years ago before Bortus ate all our old posts. 

I actually find these deficiencies more interesting. 

Thank you for reminding me (us?) abut The Orville and, especially, Ed not being The Best Of The Best. 
Dear Writers: Please have some fairy exposition about this point in future dialog. It's been years since the show premiered.

Edited June 25, 2022 by shapeshifter

[Chaos Theory]

For me Charly is Ashley Seaver Criminal Minds thing all over again.    A lot of the problem isn’t really the actress’s fault.  It’s bad writing, bad timing and weird nepotism getting on fans nerves.    Is Charly really a bad character or do we all just perceive her as a bad character because Charly’s attitude about Isaac who is a fan favorite and the actresses’s relationship with Seth makes it aggravating that Charly gets scenes that make sense she gets.    There is no reason why she wouldn’t pilot a ship to Krill.  She is bridge crew.    Plus having a new member who wasn’t there for season  1 and 2 is a good someone who the characters could use to explain things. 

Edited June 25, 2022 by Chaos Theory

[shapeshifter]

7 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

For me Charly is Ashley Seaver Criminal Minds thing all over again.    A lot of the problem isn’t really the actress’s fault.  It’s bad writing, bad timing and weird nepotism getting on fans nerves.    Is Charly really a bad character or do we all just perceive her as a bad character because Charley’s attitude about Isaac who is a fan favorite and the actresses’s relationship with Seth makes it aggravating that Charly gets scenes that make sense she gets.    There is no reason why she wouldn’t pilot a ship to Krill.  She is bridge crew.    Plus having a new member who wasn’t there for season  1 and 2 someone who the characters could use to explain things. 

Maybe the writers (and Seth?) figured since Winters' relationship to Seth would generate a lot of online hate, they might as well write her character as someone you love to hate. The problem is that I don't think anyone is loving to hate her. They should have written her as a villain from Planet of the Villains or something. Kind of Lana Parilla as Regina in Once Upon A Time. 
Charly's remarks do come off as racist, and racist characters are easily despised, but I don't think anyone "loves" to hate them. 🤷‍♀️

In this episode, I think Charly's only anti-Kaylon remark is that the Kaylons are likely to take advantage of the dissolution of the treaty between the 2 Kaylon foes and attack, right? Which isn't really racist, just strategic. 

Or did I forget some dig at Isaac?

This episode was better, IMO, that the previous from this season, so maybe they will retcon Charly's personality?

[Lugal]

53 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Charly's remarks do come off as racist, and racist characters are easily despised, but I don't think anyone "loves" to hate them. 🤷‍♀️

In this episode, I think Charly's only anti-Kaylon remark is that the Kaylons are likely to take advantage of the dissolution of the treaty between the 2 Kaylon foes and attack, right? Which isn't really racist, just strategic. 

Or did I forget some dig at Isaac?

In the simulator when Isaac showed up she said something about the fun ending or something.  Which is not as bad as previous incidents was still kind of being an asshole.

However in previous episodes we've seen her openly complain about Isaac while she's on duty, which is just unprofessional.  As a counterpoint, see how Data dealt with Worf making an offhand remark in TNG:

[DoctorAtomic]

Again though, direct comparisons to TNG aren't apt imo. We haven't learned how Charly on the show got the commission on the Orville. It could be her last stop. She's not a good officer because she's mouthing off on the bridge. I don't think Ed can really replace her because who is gunning for a commission on the Orville? 

We, as viewers, know Isaac a lot longer than her. She hasn't seen him with the kids. With Claire. I don't like that she's trashing him either and I want her to get shown up. That doesn't mean the character isn't organic to the show. Acting wise, that's another discussion. 

Ed also pulled Gordon off the figurative scrap heap when he was commissioned for the Orville too. 

John was also a pilot until Kelly found out he tested high on engineering. She basically bullied him into taking the new commission. Not entirely professional either. 

And this episode wasn't the first time Ed and Kelly got drunk during the day. 

And I'm saying all this as reasons why I like the show. 

I liked TNG as much at anyone, but the best ever being the best all the time isn't as interesting to me as a Farscape, where you have literally nuclear terrorists the main cast, and you root for them. 

Also Claire - I'm way better looking than this. 

Edited June 25, 2022 by DoctorAtomic

[Joimiaroxeu]

Heh, the Admiral was like, "Please, I was flying these ships when they still used stick shifts and you had to crank the engines manually."

"Most men who lose their heads tend to die." Women too, I bet. 😏

Dang, Seth straight up referenced one of the greatest episodes of one of the greatest shows in the history of TV. Teleya was no Walter White though. She was not the one who knocks.

Teleya called Kelly a basic heaux who can't keep a man. Heh. All that power and responsibility and she still had time to be petty.

Apparently Seth is a fan of The Expanse too. The scene in the market/public square with the beggars on the street was practically an homage.

Ed, you ARE the father! Pshht, he didn't even demand a DNA test. Anaya could be anybody's kid.

UO I guess but I thought the CGI on that battle scene with the Krill was amazing.

Poor Anaya. What a sad, isolated life Teleya has condemned her to because she's a political and social liability. Ed needs to sue for custody, right after he sees legitimate DNA test results. Get Maury to do a cameo.

Quote

Deepfakes aside, Tey legitimately won the election,

I got the impression it wasn't 100% certain. Note how Teleya declared herself the victor and assumed power before the votes could be officially certified. Maybe she knew there was something hinky in mix and she couldn't afford to wait until it was discovered.

Quote

actors are humans, and humans are going to human.

Yes but it's becoming a pattern with Seth. He must have an ironclad NDA with the actresses/employees he does this with. Or access to Johnny Depp's lawyers.

Edited June 26, 2022 by Joimiaroxeu

[Chicago Redshirt]

One of the things I valued about the premise for the show but that has been pretty much abandoned this season is the notion that the Orville is just a second tier ship.

To take this episode, there is admittedly a reason why the Orville was chosen to transport everyone to Krill, given its role in creating the anti-Kaylon alliance. But it would probably make far more sense to have whatever the Union's flagship is take that duty. The Orville and its crew, after all, have killed a bunch of Krill. As I recall, they blew up the ship in the pilot by speeding up the growth of a redwood, and there was the episode where Ed and Gordon went undercover on the Krill ship and killed or hurt a bunch of people in the process there. It seems like it would be somewhat of a slap in the face to the Krill to have them involved, especially given that the Orville was a second-tier ship. Or maybe that would be forgiven in light of the more recent alliance. 

It might have been good to have some of the fallout from the episode this season where the Orville blew off the Krill's warning and went in the zone that they were advised not to go into.

On the Union side, it seems like basic diplomacy should have had the Union aware that there was an election afoot and that Teleya was in the mix and at the least had a fair amount of popular support (even if they expected her to lose). It seems like the Union would have had interest in Ed's insights into Teleya, and at least Admiral Halsey should have known about how Teleya had spied on the Union and Ed's ship, and he let her go. which is probably another reason Ed should not have been involved in a diplomatic mission to Krill.. Does it seem plausible that a captain who slept with a spy had captured her before she could do too much damage, but voluntarily let her go would keep his command, let alone be given a plum assignment? 

And when it came to the attack on the Krill ships, they acted almost like Kelly and the Orville were in charge, when there was an admiral who came out and there were presumably bigger and more powerful ships.

Edited June 26, 2022 by Chicago Redshirt

[Chicago Redshirt]

10 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

That's an interesting question. If Isaac were sentient, like biologically, whether human or alien, would she be able to blatantly say what she's been saying? What would they do if she said any of that about Bortus? 

I think that if Bortus had spent a year serving on the ship pretending to be part of the crew, then betrayed it to the Moclans and stood by while Moclans took over the ship, killed a bunch of his supposed friends, then continued to be on board as the Moclans declared a mission to eradicate all non-Moclans only to belatedly come to the rescue because he happened to be sleeping with a non-Moclan and developed an affinity for that person's kids, I would bet that people would resent Bortus for it. 

The fact that Isaac is a machine might add a little extra zip to the distrust and the hate, but I figure it would be there just as much if the only change was him being a biological entity and his people remained just as genocidal over some other basis (since wanting to wipe out all biological lifeforms makes little sense if they themselves were biological)..

[MSterling]

4 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Maybe the writers (and Seth?) figured since Winters' relationship to Seth would generate a lot of online hate, they might as well write her character as someone you love to hate.

Why that would that be true? Lots of people loved Alara and they said Sage dated MacFarlane.

I don't hate Charly or Winters' performance because she's dating MacFarlane. I dislike Charly because she's one dimensional. She hates the Kaylon and isn't shy about telling it, and is a good pilot. Even in this episode, she was good at flying and said something mean about Issac, so more of the same. Winters' line readings are wooden. If she were better, the performance could rise above the material until the writers give Charly something else. I'd enjoy loving to hate Charly, but I don't think Winters is capable, and that's a shame.

Contrast Charly with Klyden, a character I dislike for entirely different reasons. Klyden is bolstered by a good performance from Coleman. Klyden also has more going on than only being a sexist jerk, such as loving his family (even if I don't like how he does it), dancing, getting addicted to cigarettes with his husband, plays games, is willing to try new things for depression, and so on. While we've had two seasons for everyone else, so far in four episodes we still only know two things about Charly. I think I got more about Yaphit in the pilot alone. I don't want the weak spot of the show to be Charly/Winters; I want her to be an asset and source of conflict for good storytelling like Klyden.

[blueray]

18 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Continuing to have Charly voice contempt for Isaac has to be going somewhere, right?
Like Isaac saves her by throwing himself on a bomb or something? 

I keep thinking they are probably going to do the classic Star Trek trope (start of many episodes). Issac, Gordon and a very reluctant Charly have to do some mission involving a shuttle. Gordan is there for the needed comic relief. Anyhow, the three complete the mission and go to the meet up point only to find the Orville not there. Scans show it not that far away dead in space. They discover the crew unincapacitated. And it is up to them to save the crew. And Isaac of course ends up saving Charly's life during the episode.

[blueray]

14 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

 I liked TNG as much at anyone, but the best ever being the best all the time isn't as interesting to me as a Farscape, where you have literally nuclear terrorists the main cast, and you root for them. 

I am currently rewatching Farscape. I saw it like 10 years ago. I forgot how great the show was. I like how even the villain's have a reason for doing what they are doing. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

6 hours ago, MSterling said:

Why that would that be true? Lots of people loved Alara and they said Sage dated MacFarlane.

I don't hate Charly or Winters' performance because she's dating MacFarlane. I dislike Charly because she's one dimensional. She hates the Kaylon and isn't shy about telling it, and is a good pilot. Even in this episode, she was good at flying and said something mean about Issac, so more of the same. Winters' line readings are wooden. If she were better, the performance could rise above the material until the writers give Charly something else. I'd enjoy loving to hate Charly, but I don't think Winters is capable, and that's a shame.

Contrast Charly with Klyden, a character I dislike for entirely different reasons. Klyden is bolstered by a good performance from Coleman. Klyden also has more going on than only being a sexist jerk, such as loving his family (even if I don't like how he does it), dancing, getting addicted to cigarettes with his husband, plays games, is willing to try new things for depression, and so on. While we've had two seasons for everyone else, so far in four episodes we still only know two things about Charly. I think I got more about Yaphit in the pilot alone. I don't want the weak spot of the show to be Charly/Winters; I want her to be an asset and source of conflict for good storytelling like Klyden.

I tend to doubt that anyone hates Charly/Winters' performance because she's dating MacFarlane. I think people see that the character and Winters' performance is bad, and then on learning that MacFarlane is dating Winters go "That explains how she got the role/gets as much air time."

Which, at least for me, is a icky if true sentiment and makes the character of Charly even more annoying to deal with. Also, the fact that Seth dated Halston Sage, they broke up, and then her character got yeeted probably is going to make some concerned that there would be a pattern of him dating co-stars and then booting them when the relationship sours. Not a good look.

It doesn't matter that much to me that the actors for Kelly and Gordon were married and at some point got divorced, because they are professionals and have been doing their jobs well. (Although I do have to concede that I wonder whether there will be visible signs of that friction in the show at some point. I don't know when the divorce was relative to the filming of this season.).

To bring things around to Charly in this episode, most of what she did was pretty standard. But just the way she did it put my teeth on edge. I did notice for the first time this episode, she is seemingly tiny. 

[SmithW6079]

On 6/25/2022 at 12:19 PM, Colorado David said:

I hope the actress that plays Charley doesn't read this forum, this would bother me greatly if I was legit trying to do well and had all the condemnation.  or maybe it will incite me to go to the writers and demand better

Do you also hope Seth MacFarlane doesn't read these forums too? He's been called a bad actor numerous times. Personally, I think he's fine. 

I think Anne Winters is just bad. Mark Jackson plays a robot with no face and glowing dots for eyes and manages to emote more with just his hands and body language than she does with a full range of facial expressions. 

[Colorado David]

I think Seth's made enough bank off Family Guy he can do his pet projects and not worry much about what the viewership think of his acting strength. His fans will like him regardless of how junk or not it is. While I do not like FG, I do think he writes/acts Ed fine.

I got to thinking about it - the writers have not given anything for us to like about her. The other characters have redeeming 'positive' qualities. All we know on her, she complains and can do complex physics. Not exactly endearing qualities.  🤨 LaMarr seems to be written as annoyed at the crew at times, but manages to keep a sense of humor about him (or its his delivery.) 

[Meushell]

Charlie hates Isaac, but she’s cool with the Krill? That makes no sense.

I don’t mind her view on Isaac unless she’s being unprofessional about it, which she has been. Her comment on the holodeck (I forgot what they call it here) makes sense. I think she would have been called out on it if not for the call from the admiral. I would also love to see both invited to more social events. Basically, “You want to hate Isaac? Fine, but you are going to have to socialize less with us if you let your hate dictate your life.”

We had basically three different scenes telling us that she was a good navigator. The first on the bridge, which came off as “We will make you like this character!” The second on the shuttle, which would have worked if not for the first scene. Then in the chase scene where the navigation goes out. How could she possible know where to go?

On 6/24/2022 at 1:21 PM, arjumand said:

• not knowing who the all-important supreme deity of the warmongery planet you're going to is, because she's cool and breezy that way

I disagree. To me, it was carrying the idiot ball for the sake of the viewers who don’t know. It made her look, well, idiotic.

I don’t have an issue with the actress. I personally don’t see an issue with her acting. The only exception might be that if it was her choice to have the character enjoy being on Krill. That might have been a writer’s or director’s choice though.

It’s like the writers are trying to make us like her, but they secretly hate her, so she’s written badly.

Now on to non-Charlie stuff.

Telaya has gone from teacher to spy to chancellor. I’m impressed. Alright, I like her. Gordon messed up big time by claiming he was close to her dead brother. Not that it excuses her actions now, but it definitely helps to fuel her hate.

Speaking of which, her using light as a positive and dark as a negative was odd. Wouldn’t it be the opposite?

The punishment for those who abort does seem light for Krill, but maybe there is more. Like they go home and the hologram is there, maybe as a baby. They have to tend to her needs or her cries get louder and louder. She follows the parents everywhere, growing up, constantly reminding them of the “What ifs?” Any future children they have are taken and adopted out. Their families are forced to shun them. They might be fired from their jobs. Their only constant is the hologram who continually berates them.

On 6/25/2022 at 10:02 AM, Lugal said:

I can see both sides there.  If they aren't by his side at the moment he won, he could see it as they doubt him, and thus endanger the treaty.  And if they were by his side when he won, well, we saw how that worked out for them.

100% agree. They saw the danger, but they were sort of pressured into going. 

Edited June 26, 2022 by Meushell

[Yeah No]

On 6/25/2022 at 10:51 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

We don't really know if Tey won the election fair and square. The ex-Chancellor and his people had projections that showed them to be pretty well ahead, and then things tightened, and then the Chancellor was insistent that there was fraud and planned to contest the results with the Council of Clerics. Was that the misguided assumptions of a narcissistic and overconfident buffoon who couldn't accept that he had lost? Was it an accurate assessment that there was actual fraud? Were the Chancellor's earlier projections right or just wishful thinking? Was Teylana able to make a strong last minute push in key districts to pull off an upset? The show doesn't give us enough to go on either way.

You're right, we don't really know, but legitimate winners don't usually put their opponents to death right after the election.  Or at all.

On 6/25/2022 at 11:29 AM, Ottis said:

My issue with use of that poem, and it has been cited in many TV shows and movies, is that while in the fullness of time the self-important stuff ends and is forgotten, that over the next year, or 10 years, or 100 years, *some* of that stuff rules and tramples on other people and *is* important. So Ozy really only works in a specific use - when a movement claims it will last 1000 years, or is morally superior to anything else. Your passing religious uprisings, or tyrant leaders, it doesn't really work.

Perhaps, but in my case after 50 years its parody in Monty Python is still the most memorable use of it I've seen!  Ozymandias, King of Ants!

[Chicago Redshirt]

16 hours ago, Meushell said:

Charlie hates Isaac, but she’s cool with the Krill? That makes no sense.

I don’t mind her view on Isaac unless she’s being unprofessional about it, which she has been. Her comment on the holodeck (I forgot what they call it here) makes sense. I think she would have been called out on it if not for the call from the admiral. I would also love to see both invited to more social events. Basically, “You want to hate Isaac? Fine, but you are going to have to socialize less with us if you let your hate dictate your life.”

I don't know if Charly was cool with the Krill. She was cool with being somewhere no other Union personnel had been at what was supposed to be an historic moment. She was seemingly pretty ignorant about the Krill. 

But even if she were positive toward the Krill, it doesn't seem a contradiction that she would not also be cool with the Kaylons. The Krill seem to be on a technological and military basis about on par with the Union and have understandable motivations that at least allow for the possibility of peace/detente. The Kaylon are technologically superior and have a declared goal of exterminating all biological life forms. As far as we know, Charly has not personally lost anyone to the Krill. The Kaylon blew up her previous ship and are responsible for the death of a close friend, which presumably left her with PTSD, survivor's guilt, and a bunch of other things to work through. Isaac in particular made at least some of this possible, so she has a in-her-face embodiment of Kaylonity in front of her on a day to day basis that she does not have an equivalent for the Krill.

Also, there is the principle of the enemy of my enemy is my friend. As much as she might hate the Krill, at the moment, it's likely only through their combined forces that they can stand up to the Kaylon.

I think the Orville calls their holodecks "simulators."

It would be great if Ed eventually has a "Leave any bigotry in your quarters. There's no room for it on the bridge" moment like the one from TOS's Balance of Terror.

35 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

You're right, we don't really know, but legitimate winners don't usually put their opponents to death right after the election.  Or at all.

Among humans, sure. But for Krill, who knows what is normal?  

It could be that Teleya killed Previous Chancellor to make any questions about whether her victory was legit moot. It could be that she killed him immediately because she truly believed his policies were so blasphemous that they warranted immediate death according to the Krill Bible. It could be that she killed him not because she is afraid of the election results coming into question nor because she is a true believer in the Krill bible but because that is what her followers were calling for and she wanted to stay in power. 

From my vague memories of Teleya's previous appearances, she was in fact a devout believer in Avis, although I have to question how deeply her faith runs when she could repeatedly sleep with an infidel. We don't really know much about the religion Avis founded other than it has Krill supremacy at its center (at least, as it is currently practiced).

Edited June 27, 2022 by Chicago Redshirt

[shapeshifter]

Your post above was helpful in reminding me (and possibly others?) about Charly's motivations. 

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

. . . From my vague memories of Teleya's previous appearances, she was in fact a devout believer in Avis, although I have to question how deeply her faith runs when she could repeatedly sleep with an infidel. We don't really know much about the religion Avis founded other than it has Krill supremacy at its center (at least, as it is currently practiced).

About this☝️, I may be miss-remembering, but I think sleeping with the enemy (Ed) was part of Teleya's undercover assignment. 

[Yeah No]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Among humans, sure. But for Krill, who knows what is normal?  

Right, but if a show is going to make an alien do something that's not normal for the human viewing audience it should make it clear whether it is or isn't normal for them.  And as you obviously agree above, we don't know what is normal for the Krill, and we should for us to be able to understand Telaya's true motivations.  It's moments of speculation like this that I chalk up to bad writing.  Just my opnion!

[Ottis]

On 6/25/2022 at 12:36 PM, Colorado David said:

In a future twist,  Charly figures out a way to strand Isaac in a weird pocket of 4 dimensional space, and Ed and the rest are stumped in trying to find him. So they assume he's gone, and we're back to the evil Kaelon storyline. Problem solved - less lines for Charly now, without Isaac to complain about, and the initial villains remain the initial villains.

But what happens when Seth changes girlfriends? 

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Your post above was helpful in reminding me (and possibly others?) about Charly's motivations. 

About this☝️, I may be miss-remembering, but I think sleeping with the enemy (Ed) was part of Teleya's undercover assignment. 

In her first appearance, Teleya was attracted to Ed in Krill disguise.

So when Teleya went undercover as a human, and picked, of all ships in the Union fleet, to infiltrate the Orville, it could be that she was given marching orders to accomplish her mission by any means necessary, including sleeping with the captain. Or it could be that she just freestyled into doing that. Or her sleeping with Ed could have been more about her attraction and less about the spy mission. She clearly seems to still have strong feelings for Ed as of this episode, so I'm assuming it's one of the latter two.

From what we know of the Krill, though, it seems like sleeping with a human would be like asking for a devout Muslim to have sex with an intelligent pig. 

1 hour ago, Yeah No said:

Right, but if a show is going to make an alien do something that's not normal for the human viewing audience it should make it clear whether it is or isn't normal for them.  And as you obviously agree above, we don't know what is normal for the Krill, and we should for us to be able to understand Telaya's true motivations.  It's moments of speculation like this that I chalk up to bad writing.  Just my opnion!

And a very valid opinion, and one I mostly share. 

Where I diverge slightly is that I enjoy the ambiguity that there is about Teleya's character and motivations to a point. If the show clearly established that Teleya was a cheater, an Avis-worshipper in name only, or various other things, I think something would be lost. 

[DoctorAtomic]

That's why I think there's some legitimacy to the election. She was campaigning largely on an isolationist agenda. The treaty is going to let the Union dictate Krill policies, etc. The Krill can handle the Kaylon on their own; they don't need help, Avis' will and so on. 

It seems like she's still blaming Gordon and Ed about the brother, so if she's just going through the motions and not motivated, then it falls flat. 

I don't agree because I think she's way underestimating what the Kaylon can do, and I don't agree with isolationism, but there's legitimacy if she actually does. Narratively, I think it was wrong to just straight up stab the chancellor and instead just play it straight - she won the election; she's not going through with the treaty because she doesn't want to deal with the Union. Even throwing in the heavy religious influence. 

[iMonrey]

A lot of this episode felt like watching a video game. And once again proves that a bigger budget and better special effects do not a better show make. 

Quote

I was a little bored, eye-rolling, with all the parallels to US politics.  A shoe-in moderate(ish) candidate bested by a populist blowhard; deep fakes in the media; religious zealots, xenophobia, politician hypocrisy...  I felt like I was getting hit over the head with a 2x4.  Subtlety isn't the writer room's strongpoint.

Agreed, it was all just too "on the nose," as they say. I have not been watching the new Star Trek shows beyond the first season of Discovery. (I refuse to pay for Paramount Plus.) But episodes like this and last week's make me think they're running out of ideas. At least, Brannon Braga is. The entirely of this story was so derivative and obvious.

If Teleya did not choose to terminate her pregnancy because of the severe "punishment" that would have resulted, then that means people knew she was pregnant. Where do they think the baby went?

Quote

Opening scene wayyyyyy too long. And then the same scene (or more of it) is also too long the second time. And the flight to the alien city went on forever. This show struggles with pacing. They bragged about longer running times on Hulu, but they don’t know what to do with it.

Agreed, 100%. Spectacle only gets you so far and the closing battle sequence bored the crap out of me. I know there's an audience for this sort of thing - look how popular all the Marvel movies are. But it's no accident that this genre so closely resembles a video game. Both are targeting the same audience, and both have figured out how to stimulate that part of the brain with lots of flashing lights, pretty colors and constantly moving parts. Frankly all it does is make me dizzy.

A few quips here and there do not make up for the utter lack of charm and whimsey that defined the first season. In fact, now they just seem wildly out of place. I do wonder, however, if I might like this season better if I'd never seen the first two.

[shapeshifter]

With all the extra time they have to burn, and with the years since season 2 aired (maybe even decades of watching time in Pandemic Time) they Really should be using a minute at the beginning of each episode for “previously on The Orville…” 

Edited June 27, 2022 by shapeshifter

[Chicago Redshirt]

17 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

If Teleya did not choose to terminate her pregnancy because of the severe "punishment" that would have resulted, then that means people knew she was pregnant. Where do they think the baby went?

It could be that Teleya has kept the circle of trust to only those who are raising Anaya and that few people knew she was ever actually pregnant. It could be that she feigned a natural miscarriage.

It would have been interesting if the Krill who knew about Anaya had more dimensions and gave more background as to how Teleya's pregnancy was dealt with and why they are willing to cross Teleya by revealing this secret. 

[Mrs. Stanwyck]

On 6/23/2022 at 6:52 PM, shapeshifter said:

• Initially we shockingly see Teleya stab Supreme Chancellor Korin in the abdomen, seemingly killing him.
• Later, Teleya shocks Ed with this notification of Korin's demise: "You will find him in the center of the Capitol Square. Or at least his head."⭐
• Much later Teleya stabs President Alcuzan in front of the roaring, blood thirsty crowd, presumably killing him, but then, not much later during their escape: "I'm pleased to report that President Alcuzan is going to make a full recovery."

My thought on the Union president surviving is that he is a different species and thus his vital organs may be in different places.  I thought she stabbed him with every intention of killing him, she just didn't succeed because she didn't hit any vital organs.

[chaifan]

1 hour ago, Mrs. Stanwyck said:

My thought on the Union president surviving is that he is a different species and thus his vital organs may be in different places.  I thought she stabbed him with every intention of killing him, she just didn't succeed because she didn't hit any vital organs.

Also, presumably the Krill Chancellor was left there on the stage to bleed out and die, while the Union President was swept away and received medical help somewhat promptly.  That was my thought. 

But I do like the theory of vital organs in entirely different places.  I'd like to see a species, one more pre-disposed to violence like Klingons or Moclans, develop impermeable rib cages that would serve as built in shields to knives, bullets (up to a point) and general blunt force strikes.  That would actually make evolutionary sense, and would be funny to see in action. 

[Commando Cody]

On 6/25/2022 at 3:48 PM, Chaos Theory said:

For me Charly is Ashley Seaver Criminal Minds thing all over again.    A lot of the problem isn’t really the actress’s fault.  It’s bad writing, bad timing and weird nepotism getting on fans nerves.    Is Charly really a bad character or do we all just perceive her as a bad character because Charly’s attitude about Isaac who is a fan favorite and the actresses’s relationship with Seth makes it aggravating that Charly gets scenes that make sense she gets.    There is no reason why she wouldn’t pilot a ship to Krill.  She is bridge crew.    Plus having a new member who wasn’t there for season  1 and 2 is a good someone who the characters could use to explain things. 

Their first mistake was her introduction as a new cast member. She immediately started bitching at Isaac and she hasn't let up since.  She can't deliver a convincing line of script. I did not know she was Seth's girlfriend.  I made a guess that she was.  New hateable, bitchy cast member who can't act gets a seat on the bridge.  Seth has a history of dating his cast members, so I looked it up. 

[SmithW6079]

8 hours ago, chaifan said:

But I do like the theory of vital organs in entirely different places.  I'd like to see a species, one more pre-disposed to violence like Klingons or Moclans, develop impermeable rib cages that would serve as built in shields to knives, bullets (up to a point) and general blunt force strikes.  That would actually make evolutionary sense, and would be funny to see in action. 

(The end of the clip.)

[CarpeFelis]

On 6/27/2022 at 12:31 PM, iMonrey said:

A few quips here and there do not make up for the utter lack of charm and whimsey that defined the first season. In fact, now they just seem wildly out of place. I do wonder, however, if I might like this season better if I'd never seen the first two.

I’m with you! This season feels different to me than the previous ones, and not in a good way. Something’s missing. It seems to me like they’re trying to turn it from an homage/slight spoof of TNG into a Serious Show, and it’s not exactly working for me, even though I don’t really mind the heavy-handed political parallels. Charly is irritating and so are the Krill. Bring back the charm, writers!

[Meushell]

On 6/27/2022 at 6:59 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

I don't know if Charly was cool with the Krill. She was cool with being somewhere no other Union personnel had been at what was supposed to be an historic moment. She was seemingly pretty ignorant about the Krill. 

But even if she were positive toward the Krill, it doesn't seem a contradiction that she would not also be cool with the Kaylons. The Krill seem to be on a technological and military basis about on par with the Union and have understandable motivations that at least allow for the possibility of peace/detente. The Kaylon are technologically superior and have a declared goal of exterminating all biological life forms. As far as we know, Charly has not personally lost anyone to the Krill. The Kaylon blew up her previous ship and are responsible for the death of a close friend, which presumably left her with PTSD, survivor's guilt, and a bunch of other things to work through. Isaac in particular made at least some of this possible, so she has a in-her-face embodiment of Kaylonity in front of her on a day to day basis that she does not have an equivalent for the Krill.

Also, there is the principle of the enemy of my enemy is my friend. As much as she might hate the Krill, at the moment, it's likely only through their combined forces that they can stand up to the Kaylon.

All of which I still find inconsistent. She cannot keep her hate of Isaac to herself to the point that she will act completely unprofessional while on the bridge. To be specific, I refer to her ridiculous “We don’t leave people behind” speech. Yet, she is happy to walk around Krill? She smiled to be able to do so and happily told one of the Krill that she hopes to see more. There’s no hate in there from someone who can’t control her outbursts.

She understands the importance to the Krill alliance, but not the importance of Isaac’s knowledge? 

They have been at war with the Krill for many years now. How many have they murdered? It would have been over a 100,000 in just one colony alone. Even if she didn’t personal lose anyone to the Krill, the crimes don’t matter to her? At all? That’s how she acts. I don’t believe she is just that ignorant. 

Normally, I would believe she was just acting professional, keeping her emotions in check, but she had proven that she can’t.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Meushell

[AnimeMania]

[kay1864]

On 6/23/2022 at 12:48 PM, dwmarch said:

Isaac seemed to just be back to the status quo after that but six months later everyone hates him. Guess I will have to rewatch and see if this flows any better than how I remember it.

Unfortunately it doesn’t. I posted on that very point with S3e1. 

Edited July 1, 2022 by kay1864

[kay1864]

On 6/23/2022 at 2:48 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

Maybe for a Krill, being confronted with the holochild is a source of unending shame and  humiliation.

Yep, although I was waiting for “And now you will join your child in death!” followed by ray beams from the ceiling. 

Edited June 30, 2022 by kay1864

[kay1864]

On 6/23/2022 at 6:47 PM, phalange said:

Talaya is truly terrible, publicly executing political opponents and hiding her child away because it would harm her political ambitions.

Who knew that a populist leader staging a coup based on lies could be so two-faced?

[kay1864]

On 6/23/2022 at 6:24 PM, shapeshifter said:

Maybe they used CGI for Anaya/Gently Falling Rain's make up??

She had way less makeup of course than an adult Krill. Basically a head appliance not much different than a wig, plus white face makeup.

[kay1864]

On 6/24/2022 at 10:10 PM, Ottis said:

And the flight to the alien city went on forever.

And the whole time, despite being warned it would be a rough ride, the rest of the delegation didn’t sit in the four seats available. 

[kay1864]

On 6/25/2022 at 4:24 PM, shapeshifter said:

if Seth & Winters split up, Charly's life can be saved by transplanting her brain into a Kaylon body.

At least then her wooden delivery would fit 😆

[kay1864]

On 6/26/2022 at 3:45 AM, MSterling said:

Lots of people loved Alara

To this day I like her much better than Talla. Jessica Szohr is good enough in the role, but Sage to me was much more deft an actress. Not to mention a bigger contrast between her strength and her size. 

[Guest]

On 6/26/2022 at 7:24 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

(Although I do have to concede that I wonder whether there will be visible signs of that friction in the show at some point. I don't know when the divorce was relative to the filming of this season.).

I had the same thought so I looked it up. If there are visible signs of friction it should show up from this point onward. They filmed half the season before the Covid shutdown and she filmed for divorce (for the second time) during the hiatus. 

On 6/27/2022 at 8:10 PM, Commando Cody said:

Their first mistake was her introduction as a new cast member. She immediately started bitching at Isaac and she hasn't let up since.  She can't deliver a convincing line of script. I did not know she was Seth's girlfriend.  I made a guess that she was.  New hateable, bitchy cast member who can't act gets a seat on the bridge.  Seth has a history of dating his cast members, so I looked it up. 

Same. My problem wasn’t that she was dating Seth but that I could tell she was dating Seth by how her character was treated. You could also tell with Sage but it worked better because it made sense for Alara to be in so many scenes. She had a useful and clearly designated role and an interesting backstory. Charly has none of that. It doesn’t help that every time I see her I feel like she just wondered over from the Pretty Little Liars or Gossip Girl set. 

[legaleagle53]

2 hours ago, Dani said:

I had the same thought so I looked it up. If there are visible signs of friction it should show up from this point onward. They filmed half the season before the Covid shutdown and she filmed for divorce (for the second time) during the hiatus. 

Same. My problem wasn’t that she was dating Seth but that I could tell she was dating Seth by how her character was treated. You could also tell with Sage but it worked better because it made sense for Alara to be in so many scenes. She had a useful and clearly designated role and an interesting backstory. Charly has none of that. It doesn’t help that every time I see her I feel like she just wondered over from the Pretty Little Liars or Gossip Girl set. 

That explains why she's such a Mean Girl!

[Dobian]

On 6/23/2022 at 3:37 PM, Commando Cody said:

Isaac showed up with a mustache and downer Charley had to, once again, throw a wet blanket on everything.  She really sucks. They gave her more of a featured part and she just couldn't handle it.  If Seth insists on keeping her around, he needs to keep her in the background.

Well it's the writers making Charly hate on Isaac and make snarky comments toward him, nothing the actress can do about that.

Of course, I would rather have Charly hate on Isaac than give her amnesia and have her act around him like nothing happened.  At least the writers are being honest.  But eventually they need to bring closure that plot thread one way or the other.

[Emma9]

On 6/23/2022 at 2:41 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

It seems silly that in the 2500s there could be such a thing as an accidental pregnancy.

I doubt Teleya thought their species would be interfertile, hence she probably didn't take precautions. As to why they were, well, Trek had The Preservers to thank/blame for the majority of the galaxy being populated by sexually compatible humanoids, Orville-verse has no equivalent excuse as yet. (Maybe something like that will become one of Planet Kelly-Worshipers' projects eventually.)

~

On 6/25/2022 at 12:41 AM, DoctorAtomic said:

I'm just not a show rewatcher because there's just so much content out there now.

I'm the complete opposite. Yeah, there are many more shows being made than in the old days ('and now get off my lawn', says the creaky 35-year-old), but A) Most of the current popular trends aren't for the sorts of shows I particularly enjoy and B) The sheer volume of all that content, spread over so many networks and streaming services and schedules and and and...too much to sort through and find which shows, if any, I want to even try, let alone follow and keep up with. I'd been heading in that direction for a while and then with most things having a pandemic hiatus so there wasn't a concrete 'fall premiere season', they just slowly trickled back once I was no longer paying attention, I realized I wasn't missing current tv much. I'd rather just re-watch old things.

~

On 6/26/2022 at 5:49 PM, Meushell said:

Speaking of which, her using light as a positive and dark as a negative was odd. Wouldn’t it be the opposite?

I caught that too, particularly with the gag at the beginning of them taking Annie as a horror parable.

~

On 6/30/2022 at 9:20 PM, kay1864 said:

To this day I like her much better than Talla. Jessica Szohr is good enough in the role, but Sage to me was much more deft an actress. Not to mention a bigger contrast between her strength and her size. 

Agreed. I don't dislike Talla at all (which I often end up doing when there's an obvious 'dump a character and then replace them with a similar goldfish' move), but I find her much less interesting than I did Alara. Firestorm remains my favorite episode.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Emma9

[Chicago Redshirt]

18 hours ago, Emma9 said:

I doubt Teleya thought their species would be interfertile, hence she probably didn't take precautions. As to why they were, well, Trek had The Preservers to thank/blame for the majority of the galaxy being populated by sexually compatible humanoids, Orville-verse has no equivalent excuse as yet. (Maybe something like that will become one of Planet Kelly-Worshipers' projects eventually.)

Yeah, but Ed was thinking he was sleeping with a human crewmate and so should have taken precautions too. In an era where doctors can grow a new leg for you and attach it, they haven't invented a male pill? It hasn't become customary for men to just get vasectomies until they plan on having kids? They haven't invented a foolproof, high-tech condom that allows all the sensation but prevents sperm transmission?

Edited August 11, 2022 by Chicago Redshirt

[shapeshifter]

9 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Yeah, but Ed was thinking he was sleeping with a human crewmate and so should have taken precautions too. In an era where doctors can grow a new leg for you and attach it, they haven't invented a male pill? It hasn't become customary for men to just get vasectomies until they plan on having kids? They haven't invented a foolproof, high-tech condom that allows all the sensation but prevents sperm transmission?

I can fanwank that their birth control methods are tailored by species, and Ed used the wrong type. 🤷🏻‍♀️