S01.E06: Lift Us Where Suffering Cannot Reach

[paulvdb]

Quote

A threat to an idyllic planet reunites Captain Pike with the lost love of his life. To protect her and a scientific holy child from a conspiracy, Pike offers his help and is forced to face unresolved feelings of his past.

Premiere date: June 9, 2022

[AnimeMania]

Ian Ho as the First Servant
Huse Madhavji as Elder Gamal
Lindy Booth as Alora

[paigow]

Prime Directive beat Pike today...

[NeenerNeener]

So they ripped off LeGuin's The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas.

[tanita]

4 hours ago, NeenerNeener said:

So they ripped off LeGuin's The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas.

I was just coming here to right that. Literary rip off one of the best short stories I've ever read.

[Stardancer Supreme]

This episode punched me right in the heart. Thanks SNW!

La'an and Uhura was awesome.  I dare say Uhura even impressed La'an, which I don't think many cadets could do. 

I was hoping that this First Servant would not be sacrificed. Imagine knowing that you would be used to fuel the whole planet.  And only children would do instead of an adult.  Seems so barbaric, even for the future.  That boy probably had the cure for M'Benga's daughter.

Alora: "We're not Federation members and we are a very private people... because we do things you would definitely NOT approve of."

If the Elder had told Pike what was up, he might have been able to save his son despite dooming his homeworld.

[tanita]

28 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

If the Elder had told Pike what was up, he might have been able to save his son despite dooming his homeworld.

Would that not be considered breaking the Prime Directive. They are not a Federation world and that is part of their culture. And it's not a dirty little secret that a few is keeping from the many. It's not like the Federation would free the poor inhabitants from the evil of the the corrupt and domineering top cast.

If anything, the fact that a colony exists indicated that the population has started to realize that the practice is wrong and barbaric. It will just takes more then a few years to cleans conditioning.

Also, as Alora said, it's not as if they didn't try to find alternatives and given how advance their medicine is, I doubt the Federation would help.

I mean, as gruesome it sounds, I think the Vulcan proverb applies here - The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. Save one child and doom a whole planet. Now if we knew that it's all just a lie, and that the Floating Paradise would not crush down onto the rivers of lava, that is another story.

Edited June 9, 2022 by tanita

[cambridgeguy]

Looks like even in the prime timeline Starfleet is happy to give promotions very quickly.  Pike says he was a lieutenant 10 years ago and he's already been captain of the Enterprise for years at this point.  That's a rapid march through the ranks.

This episode also reminds me of some old Stargate episodes.  I recall a couple where O'Neill and the rest of the team were horrified when kids had to have their minds wiped to further a society, or something along those lines.

Edited June 9, 2022 by cambridgeguy

[MissLucas]

Ah, a Librarians reunion! Lindy Booth can sell the crazy like no other - she almost had me convinced LOL! But she's full of it and the whole the good of the many spiel never sits right with me (sorry, Vulcans) and in this instance it does not even apply. She left out the one option that should have been on the table: harnessing the resources they have without the machine from hell and move to Prospect 7. 

I am however disappointed Gibbs La'an was not allowed to quote rule #8: Beware of things that look too good to be true.

Seriously though - the whole plot was based on folks not asking the important questions and behaving incredibly naive. It's not as if scenarios like this are a trope in fairy tales, books and movies. But hey, we got some post-coital, shirtless Pike so all is good.

PS: Do we know what Mugatan breathing stones are? Do we want to know?

Edited June 9, 2022 by MissLucas

[AmigaJoe]

Pike resurrecting an old Trek Trope, The Captain getting Space Pussy!

-i'm so sorry

[PurpleTentacle]

What was a bit weird was that their medical and other technology was so advanced but they had those dinky little ships that couldn't even lower the enterprise's shields by 1%.

I'm not clear what the machine actually does. I mean it can't really be that without the machine everything would turn to acid and lava. Did anybody understand that better than me?

But if it's important to the survival of the planet it seems hypocritical for us to be on a high horse here. Maybe not for the federation, but for us in the here and now certainly. We cripple and kill countless children in drone strikes all the time, let them starve, deny them medication to increase profits of big pharma, etc. and nobody cares. At least on that planet it's only one child and everybody else gets to live in paradise.

6 hours ago, tanita said:

Would that not be considered breaking the Prime Directive.

The Prime Directive only applies to pre-warp civilisations.

[Affogato]

8 hours ago, tanita said:

I was just coming here to right that. Literary rip off one of the best short stories I've ever read.

Very very Star Trek!

[Affogato]

24 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

What was a bit weird was that their medical and other technology was so advanced but they had those dinky little ships that couldn't even lower the enterprise's shields by 1%.

I'm not clear what the machine actually does. I mean it can't really be that without the machine everything would turn to acid and lava. Did anybody understand that better than me?.

Possibly an actual AI that required a neural net that was so involved in everything on the planet that it couldn’t be removed. 

[PurpleTentacle]

13 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Possibly an actual AI that required a neural net that was so involved in everything on the planet that it couldn’t be removed. 

I mean sure. But there were no specifics, right? You'd think a Star Fleet captain or Spock would inquire what the machine was actually good for.

Unless the falling out of the sky and acid and lava was meant to be literal. But that makes no sense. Although these writers have shown quite a few times that they don't understand anything about physics, so maybe they did mean it literally?

[Starchild]

43 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

I mean sure. But there were no specifics, right? You'd think a Star Fleet captain or Spock would inquire what the machine was actually good for.

I thought it was weird that Pike would just take her word for it that unplugging the kid would kill him. "Oh OK then, no point in even taking a look I guess"

43 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Unless the falling out of the sky and acid and lava was meant to be literal. But that makes no sense. Although these writers have shown quite a few times that they don't understand anything about physics, so maybe they did mean it literally?\

I think it was literal, but c'mon they're warp-capable, just freakin' leave the lava planet FFS

[historylover820]

Yeah, I think this was the first episode that I really didn't care much for. I figured there was something sinister going on about the woman, but when we got to the machine, I wasn't sure what it was doing. Killing the kid, obviously, But, how often do they need a child to "ascend"? What was the machine actually doing? I figured that the sacrifice would be for a myth and legend, not actually to keep the planet floating on a bed of lava. And how would a child do that anyways? You'd think there'd be more dissenters than that few guards who protested. 

I didn't know if I wasn't paying attention to it, but questions kept springing up.

Oh, well. At least I can splash around in the shallow end and say that I enjoyed shirtless Pike a lot. My eyes were happy, even if my brain was going "Huh?" throughout the entire episode.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, tanita said:

Would that not be considered breaking the Prime Directive. They are not a Federation world and that is part of their culture. And it's not a dirty little secret that a few is keeping from the many. It's not like the Federation would free the poor inhabitants from the evil of the the corrupt and domineering top cast.

As was mentioned they have warp drive so the Prime Directive wouldn’t apply. The Enterprise only got involved by answering a distress call. Plus making the adult trying to stop it the boy’s father was a good call from that standpoint. It wasn’t just Pike’s sensibilities objecting. When he tried to stop it he was siding with the kid’s father. 

8 hours ago, tanita said:

I mean, as gruesome it sounds, I think the Vulcan proverb applies here - The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. Save one child and doom a whole planet. Now if we knew that it's all just a lie, and that the Floating Paradise would not crush down onto the rivers of lava, that is another story.

I don’t think that really applies when we are talking about an advanced society with warp. They could leave. They just decided they would rather sacrifice a child instead. 

[paigow]

The Prime Directive can be applied to advanced civilizations. Non interference more so than  pretending that other planets do not exist. Example of Picard breaking it is saving Wesley from a ridiculous, but legal death penalty.

Pike was facing essentially the same issue except that a Federation citizen was not at risk.

[Guest]

I just realized why I didn’t buy a word of Alora’s speech about how much more honest their practice is. The first servant is chosen at birth by lottery, forswore his own family, and is raised in a retreat on a moon. If it’s so noble why deny him any kind of life before the sacrifice? Why choose at birth? The only explanation I can think of is so he won’t change is mind, can be indoctrinated and so other people aren’t uncomfortable. That doesn’t seem very honest to me. 

1 hour ago, paigow said:

The Prime Directive can be applied to advanced civilizations. Non interference more so than  pretending that other planets do not exist. Example of Picard breaking it is saving Wesley from a ridiculous, but legal death penalty.

Advanced and warp capable aren’t the same thing though. I wouldn’t consider the planet in Justice advanced. There was no evidence they had warp capabilities and were far behind the federation technology. 

The Federation doesn’t even pay lip service to not interfering with species of equal or more advanced technology.

3 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

What was a bit weird was that their medical and other technology was so advanced but they had those dinky little ships that couldn't even lower the enterprise's shields by 1%.

That wasn’t their ship. The colony may have been an offshoot of their planet but it would make sense for them to be less technologically advanced. Based on the weapons the guards had they seemed to have advanced weapon technology. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

16 hours ago, NeenerNeener said:

So they ripped off LeGuin's The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas.

For those who haven't had the pleasure of reading it, I guess it's not spoiling much if you've watched this episode.

The concept was that there's a town called Omelas (which happens to be "Salem, O" backwards) that's basically a utopia. But it's somehow based on forcing a small child to suffer a miserable experience in a filth-soaked basement. And every resident annually visits the child once a year to know that their utopia is based on this child's suffering and is supposed to come to terms with it. Except the titular ones who can't reconcile the notion that their paradise is based on that suffering and leave the town.

It would have been nice if they attempted to go beyond the story, but oh well. 

3 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

What was a bit weird was that their medical and other technology was so advanced but they had those dinky little ships that couldn't even lower the enterprise's shields by 1%.

I'm not clear what the machine actually does. I mean it can't really be that without the machine everything would turn to acid and lava. Did anybody understand that better than me?

But if it's important to the survival of the planet it seems hypocritical for us to be on a high horse here. Maybe not for the federation, but for us in the here and now certainly. We cripple and kill countless children in drone strikes all the time, let them starve, deny them medication to increase profits of big pharma, etc. and nobody cares. At least on that planet it's only one child and everybody else gets to live in paradise.

The Prime Directive only applies to pre-warp civilisations.

Different tech might evolve at different rates, necessity being the mother of invention, blah blah blah. The aliens of the week may have no real need for top-of-the-line military craft in general. Also, IIRC, the people firing on the Enterprise were from the subsistence moon and so probably had even less resources.

They did not say what precisely what the machine does, but my impression was it for some reason needed a child's brain to work a supercomputer akin to Spock's Brain. Which makes it odd that they would have merged one of the best short stories and one of the worst TOS episodes.

The reasons why we kill and maim a) is mostly not by design and b) is because our resources are scarce. The Aliens of the Week at least have theoretical access to avoid most of that (at a minimum, they can move to a different planet if they want to). Also, they don't have to put up a prettifying myth about it. I suppose we have our own myths as well, but for the most part, I think we recognize the horror of abusing children and paint it as something to avoid.

Trek talks about the notion of not interfering with pre-warp civilizations and not interfering with the internal affairs of a society as the Prime Directive somewhat interchangeably. And also somewhat arbitrarily.

2 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

I mean sure. But there were no specifics, right? You'd think a Star Fleet captain or Spock would inquire what the machine was actually good for.

Unless the falling out of the sky and acid and lava was meant to be literal. But that makes no sense. Although these writers have shown quite a few times that they don't understand anything about physics, so maybe they did mean it literally?

I don't know if we got a reaction from Spock once it was unveiled that the machine was evil. I think Pike's horror at what the machine represents (and that he just slept with someone who is a fan of child murder) probably got him less than interested in the precise nature of how the machine works or what it was supposed to do. Or maybe it's just a sign that the writers were particularly lazy in ripping off "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas."

1 hour ago, historylover820 said:

Yeah, I think this was the first episode that I really didn't care much for. I figured there was something sinister going on about the woman, but when we got to the machine, I wasn't sure what it was doing. Killing the kid, obviously, But, how often do they need a child to "ascend"? What was the machine actually doing? I figured that the sacrifice would be for a myth and legend, not actually to keep the planet floating on a bed of lava. And how would a child do that anyways? You'd think there'd be more dissenters than that few guards who protested. 

I didn't know if I wasn't paying attention to it, but questions kept springing up.

Oh, well. At least I can splash around in the shallow end and say that I enjoyed shirtless Pike a lot. My eyes were happy, even if my brain was going "Huh?" throughout the entire episode.

"The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas" also was not specific about the precise details of how the town was based on the suffering of the child, or how many children needed to be thrown under the bus, or how frequently a new child had to be thrown under the bus, IIRC. (And it's entirely possible I don't recall correctly. I last read that short story 40 years ago. But the broad concept stayed with me because it's something that I had to wonder about if I could walk away from paradise or if I could rationalize things).

The corpse of the kid being carried out seemed to be about the same size as the new First Servant, so I would imagine that it goes through kids at a relatively quick pace. 

If, as I'm hypothesizing, the First Servant helps power supercomputers, it might help the supercomputers run things so either literally or figuratively the planet does not fall into lava/chaos.

[thuganomics85]

Definitely knew that something was up with Alora, the alien civilization, and the whole "ascension" thing, but I was surprised that there wasn't a last minute save and the kid/First Servant went through with it and is destined to die horribly.  Not pulling any punches, I see!

Mixed on the final exchange between Pike and Alora.  I get Alora's general point that no doubt plenty of innocents; including children; have suffered or have been sacrificed to benefit the Federation on some levels: just like what happens in real life.  Most of the time they are probably not intentional, but it's pretty much known that it happens.  That said, I can still see why the idea of randomly picking a kid, taking him from his parents, and basically training him to be a sacrificial lamb takes that whole concept to another level.  It just feels different that an entire civilization basses its ideal and success by knowing that kids will die.  It is hard to put into words, but I do think that makes it different and that's why Pike and likely the Federation will never want anything to do with this species going forward.  Curious to see if this will be an one-off or if this will all be revisited at some point.

Always great seeing Lindy Booth and I hope we get another mini-The Librarians reunion down the line!  Kept trying to figure out who played the First Servant and I find out he was one of the kids in the final season of The Expanse.  Dude is going through all of the big sci-fi franchises at an early age!  Needs to get on a Star Wars show stat!

At least M'Benga is one step closer to possibly saving his daughter.

I was wondering when George Kirk was going to show back up.

Despite the overall dark tone, they still found some good humor with the Uhura/La'an scenes (of course it's known throughout the entire ship that La'an will put you through the ringer!), along with Spock and Una's hilarious reactions to all of the tension/flirting between Pike and Alora.

[MissLucas]

1 hour ago, thuganomics85 said:

!  Kept trying to figure out who played the First Servant and I find out he was one of the kids in the final season of The Expanse.  Dude is going through all of the big sci-fi franchises at an early age!  Needs to get on a Star Wars show stat!

Oh, good catch! I did not recognize him but I kept tuning out of the Laconia plot whenever it was on 😁

All the vagueness about the Machine just made it very clear that the writing for this episode was constructed around a moral problem in a way that felt very forced. Things should hold better together but here you could see the seams coming apart. 

[Affogato]

This epiaode seems close to “a taste of armagedon”, based on a Herman wouk story and also about a society that sacrifices people for the well being of society as a whole. 
 

i think they are looking to TOS for a lot of inspiration. 

[Affogato]

12 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

I mean sure. But there were no specifics, right? You'd think a Star Fleet captain or Spock would inquire what the machine was actually good for.

Unless the falling out of the sky and acid and lava was meant to be literal. But that makes no sense. Although these writers have shown quite a few times that they don't understand anything about physics, so maybe they did mean it literally?

Well the answer is that it is a story about a moral choice. It is a fable in that ee make the choice as it is given to us. No kobayashi maru loopholes. But very star trek TOS. 

[paigow]

7 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

I was wondering when George Kirk was going to show back up.

Surprised he made it through his scene without a self-inflicted near-fatal incident...

He reminds me of the Pennyworth version of Thomas Wayne

Edited June 10, 2022 by paigow

[Tachi Rocinante]

That was fairly dark.  This is the kind of blunt reality that Discovery and Burnham need to be hit with.

[Ottis]

22 hours ago, tanita said:

I mean, as gruesome it sounds, I think the Vulcan proverb applies here - The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

This is why I think this ep is the best one of SNW so far. Sure, as soon as we knew a child was "the chosen one," we knew that child's end wouldn't be pretty even if it took another 35 minutes for the plot to play out. But the part that matters more is that it makes you think about ethical choices, and what it means to sometimes do horrible things to one or a few people that allow many others to live. THAT is Trek, and while it could have been done better, it's about damn time we see a new Trek show that offers these kinds of thoughtful conflicts.

I would have liked the end better if the child had left behind, and hidden, some info that would heal M'Benga's daughter, vs. having the weirdly distant yet protective dad decide to help.

ST: TNG took about a half season to start to define itself. This ep is a good step forward toward that for SNW, IMO.

[Orbert]

I liked all the twists to this one.  You could tell right away that Alora and Gamal were hiding something, but it turned out that they were hiding different things and were ultimately at odds.  Gamal was working secretly to save his son, while Alora was trying to get him "home" so he could be sacrificed.  When we saw the First Servant overhearing the conversation between Gamal and M'Benga, and how Gamal would not share the nanotech which could save M'Benga's daughter, I figured that when First Servant "ascended" he'd pass a new law letting them share their medical tech, or something like that.  That was before we knew what the First Servant's role really was.

Then of course the kicker that Gamal had actually succeeded in saving his son, but Spock misunderstood what was going on, and proceeded to turn the kid over to the authorities anyway.

I did like that Gamal offerred to at least help M'Benga with the basics of treating his daughter.  I was thinking that Gamal, now heartbroken and disillusioned with his planet and society, would just say "screw it" and share the nanotech.  But that would have been too "easy" of a cure for M'Benga's daughter, and again they went in a different direction than expected.  I like it when they keep me guessing, and I guess wrong, but it doesn't feel cheap; it's just the way it turned out.

[paigow]

The Federation should invite Prospect 7 to join... Then Pike could beam all the children off Planet Lava

[Colorado David]

3 hours ago, paigow said:

The Federation should invite Prospect 7 to join... Then Pike could beam all the children off Planet Lava

paigow, you are a genius.

didn't care much for this episode - depressing. the sentimentality of it having to be a kid is more than i can stomach.  are we gonna get an episode where kittens must be sacrificed?? i thought we might get the doc's daughter dilemma resolved, but nah thats just a teaser. boo.

yay uhura figuring things out. and boo pike, he gave an order using a first name? that seems contrary to ship protocol.

[Jodithgrace]

That was a surprise! I mean, I predicted every single thing that happened right up until they failed to save the cute kid! Don’t they always save the cute kid? Yikes! That was dark. 

I see that Pike has already begun the tradition that Kirk will cheerfully carry on…that of having a girl on every planet. Was his hair especially tall this week?

Amazing how so many planets have Oxygen based breathable air (and people who look just like humans except for a few decorative facial swirls.) It’s like they don’t even check any more, just beam down. 
 

Uhura’s security training was a fun sub plot. But right after La’an chided Uhura about not letting her phaser do the exploring, we see Spock rooting through debris bare handed without a care in the world. 

[Starchild]

5 hours ago, Colorado David said:

didn't care much for this episode - depressing. the sentimentality of it having to be a kid is more than i can stomach.  are we gonna get an episode where kittens must be sacrificed??

Yo, kittens are straight up evil

[paigow]

TNG!Wesley and a bunch of kids were abducted by an advanced species that had become infertile... He organized civil disobedience to force their release. Maybe the next Chosen One will figure out how to beat the system... 

[paigow]

On 6/10/2022 at 10:56 AM, Tachi Rocinante said:

That was fairly dark.  This is the kind of blunt reality that Discovery and Burnham need to be hit with.

This was like a metaphorical / literal volcano sacrifice... Burnham would use Book to destroy the throne  [deniability] and watch everyone die from the bridge...

[UnknownK]

The child was super smart and probably needed to be to keep the planet running. If you could put a stupid kid in the machine nobody would have cared.

They never mentioned how often the chosen one had to be replaced, and the dead kid didn't seem very old so maybe once a year? Do they need to feed the kid in the machine or is there a tube for that?

This is what you get when you outsource your IT to IBM.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Lol, Pike getting all flustered at first sight of this Alora person. Apparently she turned him out back in day and he did not mind the flashbacks at all.

Whoo baby, Pike's body. Solid perfection. 😛

It seems Pike got the male version of dickmatized. I don't understand why he thought he needed to be involved in the ascension ceremony at all. The only thing accomplished IMO was his seeing a way to avoid what he believes is his tragic physical fate.

I would call this episode an homage to The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas rather than a ripoff. It probably wasn't intended to be anything close to a faithful retelling.

Quote

That was fairly dark.  This is the kind of blunt reality that Discovery and Burnham need to be hit with.

Oh, I think DISCO is plenty dark enough. Constant crises and miseries only Michael can save them from, episode after episode. Realism has a tough time fitting into a scenario where she always has to be the hero and savior.

Quote

This is what you get when you outsource your IT to IBM.

Heh. Truer words.

For a musical palate cleanser after this somewhat heavy SNW episode, enjoy Maxwell performing his R&B classic:

Edited June 12, 2022 by Joimiaroxeu

[Frozendiva]

I too found this ep to be dark. I don't recall reading the original short story.

So far, the planets we have visited have not been super primitive - except for maybe the first one. I do like the idea that various planets have various countries and cities and we don't get a cave and some Stone Age inhabitants. I am assuming that various planets have oxygen classifications, and not all will be Earth-like.

Wonder if Pike will have a girl in various ports/planets. I certainly did not mind the eye candy. Mmm-hmm.

With all the tech on the planet, why couldn't someone build an AI child to serve as the chosen one. Have they tried life without the child? Is there something that goes on with the chosen one so that life doesn't become lava?

The ep did raise questions of morality - does Starfleet and human morality win out over other beings' morality? Why should it?

At least the ep did ask questions.

[wrlord]

Running list of comments:
Nice to see Pike razzing Uhura.
Raise shields but no general quarters/red alert?
THEN we get the red alert, which seems to make no difference to the crew whatsoever.  Crewmen should be running to their battle stations and manning the torpedo bays!
Leaving the bridge without giving someone the conn?
Why are all the interiors so huge? You could hold a cotillion in the transporter room.
The M'Benga thing with his daughter is heatbreaking, and a great touch.  Still, I wonder if stasis wouldn't make more sense.
The moon has nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere?
Really like the city, exterior and interior.
awww come on: it had to be the one white male??
Isn't that the garden from Westworld (the movie)?
Why is a cadet on the ship? and why isn't Uhura the elegant beauty she was in TOS?
Yeah, ok, she's up to no good.
Whoa. Mount is jacked.
I really like M'Benga/the actor playing him.  His reactions as a father are spot-on (and resonate with me because I have young children)
oh, I do like that bridge. It's too big, but otherwise, I really like it. Beautifully based on the original, plus some motifs from the movies.
While I really like the boatswain's whistle when Pike boards the bridge, I'd still rather hear someone say "Captain on the bridge."
Yeah, well, obviously, he's not dead.  That's insulting to the intelligence.
"Yes Sir" to a woman? Ugh.
"Captain to bridge" without them using any intercom.  We KNOW they have intercoms a la TOS, we've seen them. Are they just decoration?
That's gotta be the LA Library.
No chemistry whatsoever between Pike and that girl.
yeah. they're gonna try to kill him.
Music is terrible. So generic and unsuited to the action.
No happy ending. Good. Very good.

[wrlord]

On 6/9/2022 at 10:42 AM, tanita said:

Would that not be considered breaking the Prime Directive.

No.  The Prime Directive -- General Order #1 -- is not a philosophy of live and let live.  It's a starfleet regulation with specific conduct required in specific circumstances. It's even quoted from in Bread and Circuses.  It governs how starfleet personnel may act and behave when interacting with natives who are unaware of the existence of life on other planets.  Not the case here.

[wrlord]

On 6/9/2022 at 8:05 PM, paigow said:

The Prime Directive can be applied to advanced civilizations. Non interference more so than  pretending that other planets do not exist. Example of Picard breaking it is saving Wesley from a ridiculous, but legal death penalty.

Pike was facing essentially the same issue except that a Federation citizen was not at risk.

That's not what the PD is. It's a very specific starfleet regulation. The fact that some of the writers in modern Trek didn't understand that doesn't retroactively change the conception of it from TOS.  Remember the ridiculous TNG episode with Paul Sorvino in which he was supposed to let a whole civilization die rather than help it, supposedly due to the PD (despite not being in Starfleet)?

No, General Order #1 is a regulation regarding specific behavior in a certain circumstance. It is not some zen "non-interference" BS.

[LydiaMoon1]

4 hours ago, wrlord said:

Why is a cadet on the ship?

Wasn't Wesley Crusher a part of the TNG command crew while he was a cadet or am I misremembering?

4 hours ago, wrlord said:

and why isn't Uhura the elegant beauty she was in TOS?

This is a younger version of the TOS character. Do you really not understand the concept of starting a character in a place where they're given room to grow into the character they become...or are you just taking a cheap shot at the actress' looks?  I think both Uhuras are gorgeous.

Edited June 12, 2022 by LydiaMoon1

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

This is a younger version of the TOS character. Do you really not understand the concept of starting a character in a place where they're given room to grow into the character they become...or are you just taking a cheap shot at the actress' looks?  I think both Uhuras are gorgeous.

ICAM. Whenever I've seen this complaint about SNW's Uhura, the subtext seems to be about her hair. Before now I think Uhura wore wigs or weaves or had naturally long(er) hair. But it's hard for me to imagine how the varieties of Black women's hairstyles is still a puzzlement in 2022.

[Lebanna]

Well, the classic answer to whether you are one of The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas or not is whether you have walked away from your relatively comfortable Western life, devoted yourself in person to helping those in the third world, fighting for social justice or giving all your wealth away to the poor in your community.

Otherwise, if we can block out how good life is in comparison to the lives of so many tiny children who live in utter squalor, in constant hunger and sick from disease, often working horrific jobs from a very young age in countries where we import our nice cheap goods from… Well, we didn’t walk away.

We didn’t want our lives to be worse, we didn’t want to risk dying ourselves, we didn’t want to pay extra money that would put our financial position in jeopardy, to improve someone else’s life.

So it makes sense that this episode would have a dark ending. Because it’s true.

Edited June 12, 2022 by Lebanna

[Zaffy]

The main plot was interesting, even if I suspected Alora quite early in the episode.

So, Uhura is under strict security training. No much security though when the Captain goes to the Transporter room to  welcome unknown aliens from an unknown ship without any security detail.

In other news, I cannot stand the Doctor's voice..it is not the accent it is his hoarse whispering voice.. it is like  finger nails scratching a chalk board. At the end I just muted the sound every time he was talking, thank the Gods for subtitles.
He is my least fav character anyway and that nightmarish voice does not help.

[Llywela]

On 6/10/2022 at 2:36 PM, Affogato said:

This epiaode seems close to “a taste of armagedon”, based on a Herman wouk story and also about a society that sacrifices people for the well being of society as a whole. 

As others have said, it is closer to Ursula le Guin's The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas

20 hours ago, UnknownK said:

They never mentioned how often the chosen one had to be replaced, and the dead kid didn't seem very old so maybe once a year? Do they need to feed the kid in the machine or is there a tube for that?

I don't think the children can be replaced as often as that, not if a new chosen one is picked at birth and raised in isolation on that moon after this one is installed. I didn't get the impression they had multiple chosen ones living on the moon at a time - might be tricky to keep them dedicated to the cause if there were. I suspect the machine probably stunts their growth at the point they are connected.

11 hours ago, wrlord said:

Why is a cadet on the ship? 

Same reason other iterations of the franchise have had cadets posted to starships - practical placement on a starship in service is part of every cadet's training, which is also the reason Uhura is rotating through different postings on the ship as part of her training.

The current actress playing Uhura is every bit as beautiful as both actresses who preceded her. She wears her hair differently, that's all. This is a younger Uhura than we have met previously, one who has chosen to keep her hair short at this stage in her life. And why shouldn't she? It's her hair.

43 minutes ago, Zaffy said:

So, Uhura is under strict security training. No much security though when the Captain goes to the Transporter room to  welcome unknown aliens from an unknown ship without any security detail.

So while cadets experience very strict security training...everyone in Starfleet immediately becomes more lax in their security protocols as soon as they complete that training! I was surprised La'an didn't insist on either accompanying him herself or sending a team to meet him there. She is usually pretty strict about security.

[Zaffy]

20 minutes ago, Llywela said:

So while cadets experience very strict security training...everyone in Starfleet immediately becomes more lax in their security protocols as soon as they complete that training! I was surprised La'an didn't insist on either accompanying him herself or sending a team to meet him there. She is usually pretty strict about security.

Yeah, all those rules they kept mentioning with such importance..

So....which No is the rule "always have security detail  with you when you are about to meet unknown aliens"? 
Not to mention allowing the Captain visiting the planet all alone, because I dunno, his love interest looks so trustworthy?

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, Llywela said:

As others have said, it is closer to Ursula le Guin's The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas

Yes, What I was trying to say is that I believe the writers are looking at TOS episodes and then finding something they can do that is similar, but not (of course) the same. The episode is also reminiscent of Spock's Brain. I believe they will do this for a while, and branch out slowly. It adds to the familiarity of the show.

[Wyndsong]

All I got from this episode was that Anson Mount is very attractive. Wow. Meh episode otherwise. Weakest of the season but so far enjoying the series. 

[marinw]

Late to the party here becuase of RL and For All Mankind is higher up on my list of things to watch.

Pike just walked away from Omelas. If these people are so technologically advanced, they could find a substitute for a kid's brain if the really wanted to, so I am having trouble buying Alora's "But I tried!" exucuse. Finding a substitute  would change their whole society. The people who enjoy  the status of taking care of The First Servant would lose thier prestigious place in society. if a machine could do the job. Perhaps that's why they shunned the Federation, they are too invested in the Status Quo.

So what happens if The First Servent backs away at the last minute? It would be hard to do if the poor kid was conditioned since birth to serve a particular purpose. Asking the kid if he concents seems pretty disengenous.

Edited June 12, 2022 by marinw

[wrlord]

12 hours ago, Llywela said:

The current actress playing Uhura is every bit as beautiful as both actresses who preceded her. She wears her hair differently, that's all. This is a younger Uhura than we have met previously, one who has chosen to keep her hair short at this stage in her life. And why shouldn't she? It's her hair.

It has nothing to do with her hair. I have no issue with her hair. She simply isn't the radiant beauty that Nichols is.  Neither was the girl in the recent movies.  It doesn't help that they've made the character so goofy and lacking in confidence, despite being The Most Competent Person In The Room At All Times, And Don't You Forget It.  It's just a totally different character, sharing nothing in common with the original but her name, her race and her (in the case of TOS mostly presumed by the fans) skill set.  I get that it's a different take on the character; so is Chapel (to an even greater degree).  But yes, looks are part of it, and this is not the drop-dead gorgeous character that TOS featured.

Why would it have to do with her hair? I said nothing about her hair. Her hair is not a problem.